Cancelled Editor on Woke Religion | Glenn Loury, John McWhorter & Ian Buruma | The Glenn Show
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- Опубліковано 23 чер 2024
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0:00 The protestant ethic and the spirit of wokeness
10:47 Is comparing wokeness to religion a slander on religion?
21:08 Ian: Wokeness is a distraction from real political problems
28:02 How Ian experienced his own cancelation
41:31 America’s exportation of wokeness
45:45 Has wokeness aided and abetted Trump and Brexit?
52:54 John: Enslaved people did find ways to improve their own lives
Glenn Loury, John McWhorter (Columbia, New York Times, Lexicon Valley), Ian Buruma (Bard College, The Collaborators). Recorded August 7, 2023.
I am no hardcore church going Christian, never was, but when they talk about the cowardice at 36:00 I can only remind myself of Jesus saying to Peter, his most ardent follower right? ""This very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." Jesus was on to something about people, and his sacrifice still resonates 2000 years later.
I encountered “woke” in. Buddhist center where the religious forms of the Buddhist tradition cloaked the “woke” ideology. I was told that the Buddha did not offer these teachings (woke) so it was necessary to add them. This was in 2018 and the leadership of this center were academia trained. Having just emerged from 10 years of monastic training I was clueless but very concerned. Until I read an article by John McWhorter. Thank you John. I think you are completely on the money about woke as a religion.
that is so interesting, could you elaborate? thanks
It happened in my Buddhist world too.
I live in France and I beg to differ with you about wokism here. It (with its emphasis on blacks and LGBTQ) is VERY potent and started a LONG time ago - the reception of Tah Nehisi Coates was tremendous. Today many believe blacks were given civil rights in France in the 1960s and that slavery was practiced in French colonies in Africa. The TDS is also incredible.
The same is true for Germany, where the left has also completely lost its mind. That having been stated, invoking “TDS” is no more legitimate than the woke ideology here being justifiably trashed. Donald Trump is a psychopath who is guilty of multiple serious crimes and treason. His entire life is a story of moral turpitude. Anyone who pretends not to understand this, is engaging in a kind of self deception that is ultimately worse than what the cultural Maoists are engaged in because it gives aid and comfort to the effort to establish a mob state.
The French colonizers in America had slaves.
@@johnsmith-wk2tb Former slaves had slaves in the US. How is this relevant?
I am not a religious guy, but one thing I noticed about religion that I don’t notice in wokeness is a sense of reverence. In that respect, I have much more respect for religion.
It’s because wokeness is solely material and religion tends to focus on the transcendent
@@Mr.K.14823 Good point. I think that’s true.
And certainly no forgiveness!@@Mr.K.14823
The word John should use is zealotry. This preserves the value of the ideas but condemns psychotic behavior.
Precisely. There's religion and then there's jihadism. One thing wokeness and radical Islam have in common is the edict that you either "convert or *_DIE"_* -- whether figuratively or literally. If you subscribe to the principle that God created us with _free will,_ Wokeness is antagonistic to that principle, in that any thought that doesn't conform to woke orthodoxy is wrong by default and shall not be allowed. That's not religion, that's fundamentalism -- zealotry.
I love it any time Glenn talks about religion. He is at his most eloquent; and that is saying a lot.
I am an american living in Brazil. Protestanism is stronger here compared to any other Latin American nation. I was shocked initially when I discovered my future wife's family are devoted baptists.
From Brazil, I’d like to express how much I admire John McWhorter for his intellect, humanity and courage. Thanks Glenn Loury for your wonderful contribution for a civilized important conversation.
It is a real treat to see these brilliant men discuss important topics, and especially with such personal honesty.
John is absolutely correct about the dangers of "woke". When I first encountered Identity Politics - has it been 10 years? - from whence cometh woke power, my brain went on red alert. The more they demand compliance or else, the more I am convinced I was right. Gentlemen thank you for Island of Sanity.
Can you clarify something here? What claim about wokeness are you affirming here? As far as I can tell, your original claim hasn't been articulated in this comment.
@@darylallen2485 My claim is hardly original to me, but I do think I articulated it rather clearly.
They eat their own, too. That may be what ultimately brings them down.
@@darylallen2485 The claim is they demand compliance, or else. It's authoritarian. I know where that level of certitude of cause and ends justify means mentality leads. We have several examples from the 20th century of where "or else" eventually leads, accumulating a body count of roughly 100,000,000. It never, ever ends well.
Can you define woke?
I ask if only to stir the pot and grasp whether you seek to 'affirm the rightness of your side and that leads to a great deal of conformity and and it will end up being
a very boring culture' -- one can find this pattern in the comments, particularly attributed to certain groups - the strange dichotomy of how they recognize these aspects being part of the larger society yet feel the need to refocus their attention on the groups they already hold bias against, in essence, confirming their biases and their righteousness of their own politics. Not unlike the alleged woke side. There we find that it's not actions or so called ideologies but rather born in traits or differences from many that declare everything they are not to be 'woke'
Wokeness is the crystal meth of the masses.
John really described why us non believers hate the woke ways.
What are woke ways?
this, pretending like you don't know @@AndyMann-vs3sf
@@dingusfartacus9624 I don't know and neither do you.
Any time we set ourselves AGAINST something, we BECOME that thing. This is a LAW of universal action.
I poured myself a stiff cocktail before settling in. I knew this would be good discussion and wasn't disappointed. Great show, gents.
Man, I really appreciate Glenn's extensively articulated positions. Thanks Glenn and John, keep up the good work!
It's no use anyone telling me they are entitled to reparations. I have no effective or reliable way of assessing the credibility of such a claim.
What I want explained is why I should pay it.
All woman facing discrimination in education and work so those up to 1980 so a woman born in 1960 and over 63 deserves reparations. So add that 5% to the 11% black. And don't their daughters who didn't get a inheritance cuz their mom's didn't have a great career also deserve to get something, so add another 30%.... Most Asians faced discrimination till 1980, and socially still do, add another 10%. Nonhandsome white men, add another 15%... So most all get a govt check, and all pay higher taxes to afford it, haha ..
Can't wait to read your book, Glenn!
Perhaps an unusual upbringing, but I grew up on a commune with a largely Buddhist view to the life experience. I've found the last few years around this movement baffling and alienating and walked away from a tenured position in protest of this strange sort of moral high-ground and "need to be rightness"...it kind of freaks me out...we all didn't grow up with a Judeo-Christian influence in the US, and folks with my secondary diversity dimensions may be sitting over here scratching our collective chins on this one...I know I am.
I also find the seemingly desperate need of the movement to fill every space with words and judgements and often aggression to be alarming.
SECONDARY DIVERSITY DIMENSIONS
@@deenzmartin6695 I found that odd too. Everybody wants to be a mutant.
There has been some virtuism going on in churches forever. Wokeism has taken it to another level .
Eric Hoffer made the observation over 70 years ago that mass movements act very similar to preaching religions. As it is people involved in all those cases, it is more a pattern of people in general. Explaining fascism, Nazism, or Stalinism leads to obvious behaviors shared with evangelicals and established religions.
Well meaning and measured critiques of the culture as always. Thank you. ❤
I think this is the best podcast regarding the politics of today. It’s all meat and no fat.
I was literally thinking UNITARIANS just as McWhorter said it
Good term, “punitive wokeness.”
I agree with John that wokeism has all the hallmarks of a religion.
I've read and enjoyed lots of Ian's work on Japanese cinema so I'm looking forward to this.
Thank you john and Glenn! Another great discussion.
Big fan of your show and love John as well. I never comment but have to mention:
As John & Ian replied to your question about the “bitter clingers” or “deplorable types”, the irony was so thick. I immediately laughed out loud then thought how interesting (and wrong) they were. Elites explaining how the working class think, hilarious. I have a couple of bachelor degrees from a state school. I’m not on the level of the company you guys keep. I do spend most of my free and work time in and around the demographic in question. Those two guys answers startled me, though the part Ian stated about industry shrinking in the US did pass a bit of muster (not sure about the unions part). 2¢.
Keep up the great work
Good comment! I’m blue collar to the core - with a couple degrees and I find the elite from both right and left and middle shortchange the working class. Victor Davis Hanson never! As for the Unions… they are coopted by money and power. You can’t speak of membership and leadership (which decides support for parties) in the same breath. That is part and parcel of both sides having no real understanding of the working class.
12:45 Ian, averse to confrontation, dips out when John puts Glenn on the spot 😂I know it was just his camera but it was funny how it cut out right when things got a little spicy lol
I will be using that phrase, "I remain unconvinced."
Fabulous conversation, gentlemen! Thx!
If we understand faith and religion as “ultimate concern”, as defined by Paul Tillich in Dynamics of Faith, it helps to resolve the debate about defining wokeness as a religion. One’s religion can be money, sex, fitness, or virtually anything. Logic doesn’t need to be suspended in religion. Think of Aquinas, Tillich, or any number of the greatest philosophers who were religious. Religious believers are no more illogical than non-believers. The neo-apartheid mentality of the woke crowd is obsessive and their ultimate concern. It is their 24 hour a day religion. It is every bit as false as the religion of those who worship Pol Pot or any number of false prophets.
Do you think today's "Christian's" are worse or better than what you define as woke?
@@Gnofg Many would-be Christians claim to be woke and many others claim it is a racist ideology which is deeply heretical. At the end of the day, wokeism is an ideology of racist hate. That’s the opposite of Christianity.
The anchor is the power of the taboo of bigotry (centrally racism against black people) and thus the sacralization of minorities (centrally black people) within the psychology of hegemonic western liberalism. It all has manifested theoretically, politically, culturally in our institutions and social media has accelerated-radicalised it (populism etc). All this has happened at the same time as unprecedented mass migration into the west, that is rapidly and cruelly erasing it's identity, while being unable to acknowledge and express it.
Neo-apartheid mentality? Woke crowd? Haha what??
@@shannonm.townsend1232 by “woke crowd” I mean the crowd which has embraced the South Africanesque obsession of racist division and hate.
59:55 "It's like this history has to be a weapon. It can't just be an exploration of the objective record." Brilliant!
Really enjoying your discussions/interviews!
Thanks guys!
Thank you, Glenn, for your defense of the world religions' positive attributes
43:55 Konstantin Kisin, from Triggernometry, talked about protestors in the U.K. carrying signs saying something akin to "Don't shoot us!" against the police, when, over there, the police don't even carry guns the same way they do in the states. The mindset just trickles overseas and gets adopted by people whose culture, political, societal, sociopolitical, law-enforcement...etc. issues aren't even the same.
Thank you. 🙏🏾🇺🇸❤️
The problem with anti religious sentiment is that no one has clearly defined religion. Therefore the resistance to religion tends to take on a religious fervor.
Very educated people. My respect . Very high quality!!!
Thank you 😊
Really excellent conversation. Thank you!
The dynamic duo!
To whoever of The Glen Show production team that reviews comments: please consider doing a show on the Bloody Kansas period, 1845-59, a conflict that led to the Harpers Ferry gangs raid 1859 that kinda kicked off the civil war. Some complex and rich history right there. You could have a panel of dusty historians or whoever. Obviously Sowell would be favorite but that's not gonna happen. Also, a show on black millionaires in the 18th century would be cool. These are just a cpl pieces of American history that nobody talks about. Or maybe they do but nobody I know.
I really appreciate your guys "up hill both ways" grind. You keep me thinking and optimistic.
I feel like I'm writing Santa a wish list. Glen, you do have that Santa vibe. Anyway you guys are a gift.
As usual, thx for the work you guys do. Strength and love.
A teacher told me, "Don't worry. This is the second wave of the 60s cultural revolution.". Having lived in Berkeley during that time, that didn't feel right. No, the 60s were a time of transcendence. Today is a time of political transformation .
The 60's gave us individualism, the "gift" of neo-liberalism.
Which is antithetical to wokeness@@shannonm.townsend1232
Not having been there, I think of the 60's as liberationist, this stuff is not.
@@missano3856 it is literally the same thing
Are there any other professors as eloquent as Glenn Loury who have a podcast? I'd love to listen
no
Glenn Loury. When your book is out. I want to place a privat booking to buy the book. A signed copy. Because you is one of my favorite intelligent thinkers. Loads of love from marwick in Sweden whom follow this show. Todays show, its the highlight this weekend.
The etymology of the term Religion translates roughly to a 'bind fast', which to me sounds like 'something one hangs their hat on'; something one believes in and identifies with as a path to success and happiness. That thing you catch a person doing 'religiously' is what identifies their personal religion.
Okay I have to say one of my favorite parts of this podcast is Mr. Loury's talking avatar! 😂 I love it! Mr. Mcwhorter needs one too!
The performativity and gesture and ritual and suspension of disbelief of religion is anathema to John even as these exact things, and others, are what he loves so much about musical theater. (He’s said as much before.) John still does all that in his own private life, just not in an overtly religious context.
I think it’s fair to say that John recognizes the value of those things to leading an enjoyable life, but chooses to enjoy their benefits outside of a system of defined (often super natural) beliefs.
The world he loves would be impossible without the Judeo-Christian tradition.
The “Woke” are mostly pseudo elite. Dr. Gay of Harvard is woke and she’s a total fraud. My wife is a surgeon and she is anti-woke- we are elite in any sense but we don’t view ourselves that way.
Woke people go forward to their “ideology” with an absolute FAITH without reasoning, the same way as religious people are. And this is the weak point that religious leaders or woke leaders could use to manipulate their believers
Funniest line was the one about POTUS being of the older *union left." What has he done for unions except cuss out union workers when they call him on his bullshit?
PS: you don’t have to believe in a celestial dictator to be spiritual!! We need to condemn that part of religion and hold on the the beliefs that are helpful.
I hope there are more discussions like this at universities in the West. My question is this - to what extent is woke just a form of decadence? Don't all societies decay after generations of wealth and power?
Perhaps ,it's the "Woke's" assault on language that offends John more than Glenn.
Interesting 🤔
Likely so, the language they use is almost deliberately stilted.
12 step programs seem to work for a lot of people. Is it a religion? It seems to be a path to morality in a way that is compatible with human goodness. It does not conflict with most religions and many agnostics find it helpful.
Interesting, we unfortunately have a perfect storm politically.
No one seems to bring up the point that Florida is the #1 state for education in the U.S.
I'm with you, I'm with you, brother John, brother John.
John and Glenn, I think it would be intriguing to hear you contemplate how frequently dogma is conflated with religion. I’ve always struggled with religion, but I have always felt a sense of spirituality. And for some reason I take issue with the claim that religion, by itself, requires “believers” to suspend logic. When I wrestle with the idea of faith, I don’t imagine Jesus walking on water. Instead, I think faith is more akin to admitting our limitation in comprehending what truth (or fact) is. In my opinion, dogma often overtakes religion and many fall victim to claiming the sorts of blind beliefs I think John is voicing disdain for and I would agree with that. But Glenn doesn’t seem ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater, yet hesitant to accept religion because in practice it often resembles dogma-which usually ignores logic unless suitable for its own cause. Is it possible that there is a path forward somewhere in between? That fundamentally religion is supposed to be a logical pursuit of truth, but that we forget our limitation to understand the universe and leap to farcical claims of belief in hope the placeholder is good enough? Because people tie meaning to religion, including those practicing woke religion, when we can’t arrive at a logical conclusion we opt to accept the dogma as truth because the alternative feels hopeless.
Re John's definition of wokeness as a religion: I've also found this simply taxonomically incorrect. Wokeness fundamentally lacks a truly metaphysical message (of soul, life after death, creation of being, and apocalyptic end). Wokeness may retreat into abstractions, but it's not concerned with literal spiritual existence.
Nevertheless, I do think that it's stepped into the same role of promoting blind zealotry that was traditionally associated with certain modes of religious thought.
I'm from a Dutch protestant family, especially on my mothers side. My mother lost her religion at a young age and my brother and I were raised secularly. We didn't turn woke later.
My aunt (my mothers sister, who moved to the US) however, always stayed very religiously active, in a protestant church, taking her children with her. Her children didn't take up religion, but turned extremely woke, including working for Antifa, etc.
I wrote this somewhere before, and I said I didn't think the protestant influences were a coincidence. Glad to hear it here too.
I have to say though that although it's about Dutch protestantism, I feel like it turns into wokeness in America in particular. Because in the Netherlands (and other European countries) it's not very widely accepted to preach to other people. The famous Dutch Tolerance mostly meant (and still means) that you can do whatever you like religiously as long as you don't bother other people. Many different religions have been living among each other for many centuries, and that only works of you keep your religion to yourself. You can say what you like about the 'others'behind closed doors, but you never say it to their face. You respect them being them, although you think they're as wrong as could be.
By the way, that's the reason why some of the original protestant refugees from England didn't like to stay in The Netherlands, where they had to accept other religions in order to be accepted themselves, so they got on the Mayflower to the US. You could say the US was founded on religious intolerant extremism. In the US it's much more accepted to preach to strangers. To even call someone privately to try to convince them to vote a certain way. in Europe that's totally unthinkable. You keep your faith and other beliefs to yourself, especially in areas where there are living multiple religions among each other. If you don't, it's considered very insensitive and it could get you killed. See the Orange Marches in Northern Ireland. See Squid Game The Callenge, where the British people were rolling their eyes when the American man organised (/forced) a collective prayer. Europeans don't do that, because it breaks the collective agreement of 'you do you, just keep it to yourself'. It's percieved as a break of the truce, a declaration of war. You just don't do that.
So I think that the current woke religion is not just like Protestantism, it's like American Protestantism in particular. It's extreme and intolerant.
Not saying that there aren't any woke people in Europe, but I feel like they're less extreme than in the US.
Not the masses, just a loud, but small, apportioning of the financially comfortable college grads who have determined that the best way to win the promise of future advantage is to support the narrative of the politically powerful, whose ranks they hope someday to swell by membership. But it is, and always will be denied to them for they haven't the provenance to secure their adoption; even so, they are vigorously encouraged to continue to petition for it. Fortunately for us, but unfortunately for them, the 'actual' masses are too busy working to enjoy the liberty of political posturing and virtue signalling, and disinclined to waste that hard earned money in lottery of an ideological future.
20:45 Pure scientific materialism to me, it’s just another form of wokeness /
Religiosity
While I agree with this anti-wokeness position, I wonder if a monominiacal focus on it (which, if we're honest is driven at least in part by short term financial incentives--it's hot button) acts as fuel to the fire you're trying to put out. As the left / openly activist media has fueled Trump. Perhaps some ideas are best ignored. Not in capitulation, but in defiance.
Glenn , I would like to hear what u and John think about the Florida’s Black history curriculum. How u both think Black History should be taught in America.
I realize that ‘catechism’ can be used in a non-religious context, but it caught my ear when Glenn Loury was discounting the religious aspects of wokeism, while talking about the wokesters attacking people that don’t adhere to their entire ‘catechism’, seeing the first definition of catechism is the explanation of Christianity.
In Christianity there's forgiveness! In Christianity there's objective moral values and duties, that is, the precepts aren't generated by the brains of the Christians but rather discovered and grounded in a source he believes greater than he. In Christianity, the focus is on God, not elevating oneself based on victim status. In Christianity, all are welcome and no one is better than the other. These are fundamental differences!
At its heart Religion is justification and righteousness through faith and action. Woke/Equity/Anti-racism/Socialism/Communism are substitutes for this path to righteousness. McWorter feels this connection when analyzing the subject, and rightfully, IMO, connects these aspects.
I am a Unitarian Uniiversalist. You are right that many if my fellow UUs are very woke, and have been very critical even of their own when they think you are not behaving woke enough! I have an MA in Sociology with emphasis on Women's Studies and Race Class and Gender so I "thought" I understood what it means to be "woke". Boy was I wrong! Apparently I am not woke enough, a feminist Pagan UU, sometimes I just can't do it anymore. I really appreciate your talks, especially John McWhorter positions. Thanks for talking about this important and very divisive topic.
Enough of the justification for obfuscating the truth or search of truth as to not “give talking points to the far right”. Truth has no affiliation.
I go back and forth liking Glenn’s views more than John’s and vice versa on particular topics and I find this almost humorous. Actually I enjoy them both very much.
Of course there are a few rubs with both. The places they chose to use the term “Far Right”, either by their guest or by themselves and the lack of specifics is often a stumbling block.
Ian Buruma isn’t the only guest on a lot of podcasts I listen to who use the term without specificity. Here he says he thought it a good idea to write about it from the left rather than what’s being written by the “Far Right”.
Seems that those people increasingly labelled “far Right” would realize that descriptor is nebulous. Who exactly on the ‘far right’ is suspect? Is it James Lindsay, Christopher Ruffo, or is it Douglas Murray or Jordan Peterson. All are characterized as “Far Right” of late and all make observation of the same WOKE deification.
Lets look at just a handful of the individuals branded as heretics by the new secular religion with the label “Far Right”. Besides Lindsay, Ruffo, Murray and Peterson you’ll find a number of people whose chief sin is valuing Western Culture, gradual vs radical change, classically liberal values, National Borders and Social Stability, efficacy in traditional values & family; or per chance those perceived as having committed the sin of leaving the WOKE cult. To name a few: Asra Nomani, Matt Taibbi, Dave Rubin, Constantine Kisin, Michael, Shellenberger, Andrew Doyle, Andy Ngo, Ben Shapiro, Bret Weinstein, Carl Benjamin, Chris Williamson, Eric Metaxes, Gad Saad, Joe, Rogan, Jonathan Haidt, Melanie Phillips, Lindsay Shephard, Mary Grabar, Michael Malice, Victor Davis Hanson, Stephen Hicks, anybody from the Hoover institute, Trigonometry, Uncommon Knowledge, Hillsdale College, PragerU, or any of their guests.
Or might it be any number of Black Conservatives starting with Thomas Sowell or Bob Woodson? Lets look at a few more of our Brethren for whom the black-face-of-white-supremacy is added to the “Far Right” branding meant to discredit.
Besides Sowell and Woodson, consider a short list of Black’s defined by the “others”: Those include Walter Williams (RIP), Shelby Steele, Jason Riley, Clarance Thomas, Ben Carson, Star Parker, our own Glenn Lowry and John McWhorter; E. Franklin Frasier, Larry Elder, Tim Scott, Carol Swain, Ayaan Hirsi, Derryck Green, Kmele Foster, Burgess Owens, John Wood, Sheriff David Clarke, Lt Gov Mark Robinson, Coleman Hughes, Delano Squires, Bo Snerdley, Roosevelt Montás, Thomas Chatterly Williams, Leonydus Johnson, ZUBY. And just about anyone associated with 1776 Unites. Members of the Priesthood are not above reaching into the past to reject what came from the pen or speeches of the likes of Frederick Douglas, Booker T. Washington or even Martin Luther King.
I could go on with the names but you get the point. Perhaps I'm ignorant because I don’t seek out anyone genuinely from the “Far Right”. But I do know, many leaders are successfully branded and actually thought of as Far Right, particularly in Eastern Europe, when in fact their chief sin is wanting to preserve the health of their culture or National boundaries. They are branded such by what can only be properly understood as WOKE Western politicians protecting EU authority and power. The same can be said of the US or Canada.
The literary or speaking gimmick of referencing the “Far Right”, without specificity, as some boogie man is not a practice we should engage in if we consider ourselves a Classical Liberal. Keep in mind “Classical Liberal” itself defines you as far right in more and more quarters.
Btw, I have no issue with the use of “religious“ or “cult-like” to compare the WOKE priesthood to a fanatical religious fringe or even making use of genuine characteristics. I’m a Christian. But as a Christian, the characterization of an original sin, confession, redemption, salvation, virtue, when applied to the spirit and to faith, are valid. The rub us when they are applied to ideology and a social contagion of political-correctness; thus applied the faith-without-works, the hypocrisy, the blind commitment to failed examples casts a shadow and not a light. Exposing the comparison properly identifies converts as people you can’t argue with, people who won’t leave the cult till they stumble on something themselves which calls their faith into question, and someone who cares nothing for reason or evidence. I’ve heard the analogy from many more than the guest. Albeit John McWhorter’s book is a particularly excellent rendering of the concept.
I wonder if Thomas Sowell would come on your show Glenn!
Professor John McWhorter, you are an inspiration. It would be wonderful to see Glenn Lowry conversations be translated in Portuguese and Spanish.
I love Glen’s jazz bar piano bar theme music.
The Woke cult is fueling a simple minded 'good vs evil' belief system that is as much like religious fundamentalism as a communist cultural revolution. Both analogies are helpful and politics can satisfy the religious instinct that is likely evolutionary. A belief in something bigger than ourselves. This was likely necessary in tribal societies that humans existed in for most of history, if we think in terms of tens of thousands of years. Perhaps the Woke cult has manifested partly because of the failure of organized religions to keep up with modernity. Millions of people seeking meaning. As an old gay liberal who grew up in the Bible Belt in the 1970s, this Woke phenomenon is so much like the so called Moral Majority of the 70s and 80s that I can only see it as a false religious framework. Preaching from their moral high ground, condemning all in society they see as impure. It's partly why so many liberals like myself stopped listening to the conservative POV years ago, after Reagan married the GOP with the far religious right, they could not be trusted.
There's a growing willingness on the Woke left to chit on the Constitution to advance their cause, very much like the religious right in this way. This culture war is more like Catholic and Protestant intolerance of one another in centuries past, than a liberal/conservative politics trying to work out a centrist compromise that reflects the will of the people. It's sickening. I used to believe that a strong 3rd party would damage our politics, I now believe it could provide a solution. Both parties need to feel threatened in order to come to the middle. Hopefully the heterodox center is growing in numbers. We need for millions of people to reject this political tribalism we're stuck in.
A distinction needs to be made in both wokeness and religion between people who have sort of vague, I'll defined quasi- empirical beliefs that are clearly just a stand-in for broad, but not ideological, moral beliefs and noxious fundamentalist apologists who can't deal with complexity and have a true all-encompassing worldview. Plenty of woke people in academia don't even really understand the specifics of the doctrine bur just go along with it like you would accept the terms on a free piece of software. Lots of religious people are the same way - go into any depth about the specifics of what their beliefs signs them on to and they just compartmentalize and live just fine with the contradictions.
You can also say that Catholicism is extremely influential to wokeness through Freire.
McWhorter is always spot on.
I am religious and I agree with John, but great respect to Glenn.
I ❤ him but I disagree with his use of the word religion. It really should be replaced with “zealotry.”
Incredible content, thank you!
I feel that the reason religious people find this comparison distasteful is the very thing that makes wokeness even more akin to religion. Hear me out lol Religious people find other religions unconvincing and fantastical. Ever hear a catholic discussion pagan religions? ✌️
As a Christian I think Ian and John are absolutely right in calling wokeness a religion and not just an ideology. There is a willful turning off of the mind in people who follow false religion that parallels the effect wokeness has on many people. Wokeness also imposes a duty on the believer to “fix” what they perceive to be wrong with the world. Ideology sees, religion does. However misguided wokeness is, it is indeed a false religion and characterizing it as such helps everyone better understand how it operates - and thus, how to combat it. I personally think “religion” is the most apt way to describe wokeness because it demands faith in something that can’t be proven, and it won’t listen to logic. Perhaps the only word that might sum it up even better is cult because of how it demands that dissenting views - even mere questioning - be silenced by force if necessary.
Buruma is mistaken about the British Police who, en masse, are very rarely accused of brutality and very often of extreme inaction as a result of being idealogically captured by 'critical social justice'. 'This Is Not America: Why We Need a Different Conversation on Race' by Tomiwa Owolade is not an anti police diatribe, but a measured reflection on the very different history of the UK on race compared to the US.
Otherwise, this was an entertaining conversation even if I wish the lazy analogy of Trump's election to Brexit was not included as this, as well as being ill-conceived, is invariably a parroting of disaffected 'Remainer's' attempt to delegitimise the UK's largest democratic vote (incidentally, national sovereignty and democratic accountability were much more important factors in polls than unfettered immigration in 2016).
Like the Autistic child they arrested for calling one of the police officers a lesbian? A man arrested for teaching his pug to H. hitler? Or do you think that NOT arresting those folks would be an example of extreme inaction?
Marx said that "religion is the opiate of the masses," and I can see where he was going with that. But these days, in light of the opioid epidemic, I'd think it would be more accurate to say that "opiates are the religion of the masses."
Well said...and I agree. But we have temples to opiates in all our major cities with the homeless encampments. In Seattle where I live there was a dealer who lost Territory. The next day he put six bombs around his old Territory and tried to blow it up. I cant believe this didn't make national news. But this guy lost his temple that was a fentanyl den, so since he couldn't have it no could. Luckily no one got hurt. But the fires were incredible. Seattle's response...basically nothing just another day in hell hole Seattle.
@@user-mq5rh6ew7p That's insanity. Following the same metaphor, I would call those people "religious extremists." Here in Spokane, I'm pretty sure they shut down the main homeless camp.
Loury and McWhorter must passionately speak to the activities ( African-American Community) of its beligerent minority and it's white (European-American) "Allies"! Civilization has a delicate constitution and a backlash is assured to happen!
Prof Loury, when you used the word "catechism" you were making a reference to religion.
Thanks for the clarification about the Florida school curriculum. I didn't see that in any of the press reports.
I enjoy reasoned discussions like these. I'd really like to learn more about the state of slavery around the world in the fifteenth through nineteenth centuries to establish a baseline for comparison as slavery was common across cultures around the world since ancient times. I believe it would be fascinating and enlightening.
I believe John is right in likening Wokeness to religion. They have God(s) they have pledged unwaverinf allegiance to and defense of no matter what. They demand obedience to the doctrinal beliefs that advance their goals and objectives. They believe their ideals are the height of morality and seek to convert everyone else to their religion. They have many written doctrines as their guides for living. I don't know how one does NOT liken Wokeness to a religious sect.
The lack of self awareness of the people freaking out over this passage in the curriculum is almost mind blowing. These are largely the same people that would take a single example of a white mother being opposed to her child being taught about slavery because it made them feel bad about them self and painting the entire opposition to "CRT" as being aligned with that one mother's ridiculous opposition to the practice. Now, those people oppose factual teachings about slavery because... feelings...
Check out some of Glenn's debating from late 80s and 90s cuz they are fascinating!😁 Dinesh Disousa (sp?) is with him in some, Al Sharpton etc on other side. True gems to watch and he's been in this battle for a long time. I had no clue til I discovered him a few years ago.
Not of the masses. They thinks it's nonsensne. Of the intelligentsia.
What to do about it? Whatever it takes. The ends justify the means.
@20:45 regarding supernatural : A relevant book on this is C.S. Lewis "Miracles" (1947, 1960).
I love this conversation
Woke = Critical Consciousness. Critical consciousness is the core of social justice teaching as it is understood within the Critical Theories. It is a heightened awareness of the world and the power structures that shape it. Being Woke means viewing society through the critical lenses which sees the world only in terms of unjust power dynamics (oppressed/oppressor) and the need to dismantle problematic systems. That is, it means having adopted Theory and the worldview it conceptualizes. Under “wokeness,” this awakened consciousness is set particularly with regard to issues of identity, like race, sex, gender, sexuality, and others.
The term originated in Portuguese as conscientização from the popular post-Marxist Brazilian activist and educator Paulo Freire, usually deemed the father of critical pedagogy (that is, the application of critical theories to the theory of education). It is an evolved Hegelian/Marxian religious cult that hides as human rights, science, art and culture.
Glenn and John really need to talk to James Lindsay.
All of the above.
"Woke = Critical Consciousness", agree, but I wonder how Foucault would criticize so-called "social justice teaching", that pretty much go back to old liberal values which definitely have its root in Protestantism which he has criticized.
And “Theory of Oppression” seems far out-dated, also has a Protestantism vibe, consider theory like Judith's or performative theory that motivates the LGBTQ movement, closed related to Foucault's "The History of Sexuality" and his theories on "productive nature of modern power" and the construction of the ideology. It also has a feel of unnatural when liberal left combine these two together in identity politic.
Does it relate to Hegelian or Marxian theories? No, you can certainly see Zizek criticized wokeism. And those liberal vibes within wokeism are definitely unrelated to Marxism or Hegelianism, and even detach from French Philosophers, nearly just some revision of the postmodern ideas in flavor of white elites in my opinion.
Critical Theory - from whence most of this stuff originated - emerged from the Frankfurt School in the early 1920s and onwards.
Paulo Freire didnt come up with the term "woke".
What something means when it first comes out is not necessarily the same thing as it is today. Today, many understand and use "woke" as an excuse to be racist towards white people. That may or may not be the correct use of the term, but it is how many or most people understand and use it.
I can see the similarities with the more fundamentalist, tribalist and evangelical forms of religion. Some people are attracted to religion because of the moralising and authoritarian bent it can take. It offers an avenue to the ego to feel special and superior, and the religious or political identity gives you plausible deniability.
Cancellation most important weapon is intimidation.
Friedrich Nietzsche! Thanks for another great conversation, I learn so much here.
Probably way off, but just in case this is helpful:
I got the sense that Dr Loury might take issue with a *comparison* of wokeness to religion; the latter should not be reduced to something comfortable to the former.
But as a fulfillment of predictions by Friedrich Nietzsche, it's not a matter of comparison.
The drive to practice religion is not diminished when we see it manifest in new and screwed up ways.
Collective humanity has a religious intuition people still follow even now that "God is dead" (nietzsche).
The significance is in the intuition that underlies and gives rise to the practice.
(Also, maybe if Dr McWhorter feels more strongly opposed to wokeness, it's because it hits closer to home! He identifies more with liberalism, the school of thought parts of which are devolving into wilderness, and Dr Loury might be more dispassionate because of his more conservative nature.)
Thank you Glenn, for defending people of faith. I get John's indignation at religious fanaticism and in real sense Wokism is bad religion, but he seems to see religion in general as irrational. That is not the case! Thank you Glenn for taking up for us and graciously standing your ground. Maybe one day John may find himself knocked off his horse.
Early life and education
Buruma was born and raised in The Hague, Netherlands. His father, Sytze Leonard "Leo" Buruma, was a Dutch lawyer and the son of a Mennonite minister, and his mother, Gwendolyn Margaret "Wendy" Schlesinger, a Briton of German-Jewish descent.
Glenn Loury is the man.