DO FLOODGATES HAVE A PLACE IN YU-GI-OH? - Magical Hats
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- Опубліковано 18 лют 2023
- Somehow, we get MORE angry! Featuring @Farfa , @Nyhmnim , and @DistantCoder .
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Edited By: OPTML Media - Ігри
I just realized that this show is an excuse for them to have a podcast and I'm all for it
100% my same thought
+1
now they just need to make these 30 minute - 1 hour long episodes 😆
We needed this podcast anyways
I would honestly prefer if it was like an actual podcast because it's just fun hearing ygo rambling but having this little minigame can make things kinda boring when it breaks just how chill the discussion can be
I fucking love that the first time Gage has an agreeable take he fakes it lmao
gotta give him props
Hes too far in the tunnel to give real good takes
First red flag: Gage had a take you agreed with.
To be fair I don't think his ACTUAL take is that crazy. Yu-Gi-Oh can have floodgates to a degree Konami just needs to make them not auto win bullshit.
People literally predicted this from day one
Gage: *gives a logical, well-explained, and most importantly popular take*
Me: That makes sense
Gage: I was lying
Me: That... also makes sense.
He’s too far in the tunnel to be normal about his takes
It makes even more sense tbh.
To be fair he still had a good argument about it in the end wich is quiet shocking for todays episode
Honestly greatest plot twist of all time
That’s the sign of a good debater!
That guy who said "watch gage be the imposter and have a normal take" was more right then they could've ever imagined
he is chaos factor alright
My exact thoughs my friend
MBT, "I have always advocated for Floo without Barrier Statue."
Me, "Empen is a floodgate."
Empen is easily work around, I don't even play floo. Just special summon defense in defense till Empen is off the field.
special summon link monsters in defense how
@@cottonbuddy It sucks if youre playing a link deck. It hoses my sunavalon deck (Which is funny because bagooska is the opposite and loses to links).
@@cottonbuddy oh yeah, let me summon my link monster in defense position
@@TheGoldenRater bagooska does fucking suck though lol i think hes just a bit too powerful. I think if most decks cant effectively play around the floodgate, i think it's too strong and shouldn't be allowed. If you absolutely have to draw a staple out, like tornado or imperm, then the floodgate i feel isnt fair.
the second i started nodding at gage's take i knew something was wrong
I love how everyone said last episode that when Gage is being reasonable he is the imposter
That was today and nobody caught him
I genuinely called gage when I heard that he had an agreeable take, and it was originally a meme cuz of last episode but-
There should be chain link animations during the discussions.
Watching MBT and Farfa chain block Gage out of the discussion by immediately going to cl8 in response to Coder's dogshit take was too good.
Pretty sure only Farfa has this many this demented editors on deck.
...fund it.
I love how every single episode includes at least one take that makes me go "WTF IS THIS GUY SERIOUS???" and it is never from the impostor.
I think floodgates can be cool when they let the deck they're in do something that it wouldn't otherwise be able to do. Stuff like D.D. Survivor with Macro Cosmos and Dimensional Fissure, or Beast King Barbaros with Skill Drain. The problem is the game doesn't really work like that, and maybe never really did because most decks like that have always been kind of bad
survivor/scout plane shenanigans are the best
Yea, most flood gates that are like that should just be field spells that apply only to your field.
Domain of the True Monarchs is the perfect floodgate. It thematic, is only one when controlling a monster from the archetype, and isn't so oppressive to not let your opponent play. We need more cards like it.
@@cameronphenix2096 I mean, did you play the formats where it was viable? It definitely stopped a good amount of decks in that format from being able to play, and it stops a good amount of decks today from being able to play. What is Tri-Brigade supposed to do about it (for example)?
@@cameronphenix2096 I mean, tribute summoned scythe is still bad, but much more out-able I spose. MST negate
Beginners love floodgates cause it's a lot easier to remember flip Skill Drain, Summon Limit, pitch Messenger of Peace to summon a boosted indestructible Eldlich than an entire archetype's combo with variations. In fact the slowness of animations in MD makes floodgates even more compelling so they don't have to sit through a 10 minute synchro showcase by their opponent when they just wanna have a fun match.
What's fun about flipping floodgates and not playing Yu-Gi-Oh?
-_- wow yugioh players are assholes
"just cause someone uses floodgates doesnt make them a beginner
@@N3XTREVOLUTION the honest answer?
The fun is to annoy the hell out of your opponent. Floodgates and Stun cards in any CCG are built on the engagement of saying: "nuh-uh!" To your opponent.
It's a different kind of play. As an avid blue/ blue-black magic Player (I know, I am the worst and part of the problem, Yadda Yadda Yadda) I adore sitting
yonder my opponent and at some point just saying: "Oh! You want to do _that_ ? Cute!"
With YU-GI-OH however, the issue is that the game is balanced on a razor's edge and the average power level of a payable card is incredibly high. Thus for floodgates to work they need to be at least as monstrous.
I like floodgates like Jinzo or Rivalry. Things to play around and outmanoeuvre. But those are almost not impactful enough in _this_ card game since if a floodgate doesn't literally blanc the opponents entire turn without recourse it is ineffective.
My favourite thing in YU-GI-OH is actually to win slowly against much faster Decks. But I rarely get that depending on the format...
@@N3XTREVOLUTION same thing that's fun about watching someone jerk off with a UA-cam combo they've got open on a side tab
@@N3XTREVOLUTION I used to play combo decks in master duel, like swordsoul, or branded, however recently seeing how everyone were playing those deck, it got boring to see them be used, and that now that i was getting wrecked by decks like runick and sprite i tried out floodgate decks, and I ended up enjoying it because it stopped peope from making the boards that wrecked me, of course I have been learning to counter the decks that i found annoying but it sucks since runick is so different from other decks that i don't have an ideal gameplan with my normal decks, where as floodgate pass works on everything.
I’m Kevin’s defense. I was a newer player. Kept losing and wasn’t having fun. Then I picked up Eldlich and started to have success and that kept me in the game. Then I switched to branded. Eldlich helpers me understand the game in a much more complete manner too
I knew it! I said the only way it was ever going to be Gage is if he had a correct opinion. He had the right opinion and he was the imposter! Ez clap
He still had a right opinion tho
@@defectivesickle5643 That's his point. He had the correct opinion so there's no way he wasn't lying.
Gage is truly beyond our comprehension
@@defectivesickle5643 being anti floodgate is the correct opinion
If they ever do ban Zombie World, I hope to god that they at least come up with some kind of future Zombie support that either replaces it or otherwise acts as a proxy because Zombie World has been one of my pet decks for the longest time.
maybe like Umi deck, since they have many field and spell, and some how all are all UMI
every single fucking side last format, I can't fucking play rikka in peace
Zombie World is like 14th on the list of floodgates they'd ban, I wouldn't worry
@@CoordinatorKYamato ya theyd sooner ban Rivalry so you can’t do the Zombie World+Rivalry lock. There’s a decent argument for that one too, since Rivalry can go in the side decks of meta decks. I ran it in Dragon Link for a long time. I doubt they ever would ban it because I think Konami’s take on Floodgates is similar to Coder’s in this video.
As somebody who played a deck that insta lost to zombie world if I didn’t draw an out (Tri-brigade. Turns out you kinda really need things to be tri-beasts ), I can say the best way to make zombie world not a floodgate but still let zombie decks function would be to allow the game to have monsters have multiple types. If they got to keep their original types and were then also zombies it would keep zombie strategies functional without being a floodgate. Probably never going to happen but that’s what I think they could do with it
I'm sure the comments on this video are going to be super reasonable
As reasonable as the giant face in your profile (not very reasonable)
"Floodgates make the game uninteractive and need to be out of the game to be better"
I'm pretty sure most decks don't need to draw the out if I'm sitting behind a 4-mat Apo, a Savage Dragon, a Baronne and a Crystal Wing
These should be a lot longer with much more arguing and back & forth.
Agreed.
Pretty sure that this series is trimmed down to the core of the discussion. Not sure if there's an unedited version though.
“What kind of idiot watches UA-cam videos at 3 AM?”
MBT Viewers: “Oh boy 3 AM!”
They need to stop printing floodgates that don't let the opponent play the games. In my opinion, floodgates should hinder the opponent not win the game
Very good way of wording it.
I agree 100%. I know this is an odd comparison but Masquerade the blazing dragon vs something like TCBO. Masquerade you want to deal with soon but isn't an instant win you just need to keep track of effects before removing it. TCBO a lot of decks just can't do a single thing vs
So more floods like Lose 1 Turn and less like everything else
@@johnnyjohnson4265 Though I always find that weird with all of the spell/trap removal we have nowadays, though I guess a lot of players don't want to cut down on their combo pieces for extra s/t removal 🤔
Thats the purpose of floodgates tho. And konami will keep making em. Tho recently there are lot less of em already. Tho make sense as most floodgates for most purposes have been created already. Not much more idea u can make new floodgates with tbh, that is better than lot curent options.
How was MBT, the guy who has literally always mained floodgate turbo decks, NOT the imposter? I'm so completely and utterly confused.
i guess he really talk about his "last months" experienc in the game. I do think he was lying a little bit like i dont belive he dont like floodgates in the game. I do understand IF he dont want hard floodgates in the game anymore tho.
4:17 I wanna say real quick about MBT's line about how YGO players feel about Stun vs MTG players. In MTG you have limited resources. You're restricted by the mana you can generate as well as the cards in hand. In YGO you can special summon as much as you want, there's a LOT of cards that fetch cards from deck to board. Many decks can rebuild a board from 1 card. So it makes sense that YGO players hate Stun more than MTG players because they're more restricted. It's very hard to "pop off" on your first turn in MTG.
MtG players aren't bothered by floodgates because the basic game mechanics already floodgate them.
This really isn't true, but it's ok. In magic floodgates, or as we call them prison cards, are just less encompassing, and often much more easily outable. We are ok with them because we have the tools to handle them pretty consistently, unlike in Yu-Gi-Oh.
I never played magic but i think even i cam get how it works in magic theres no floodgate that tells you cant play the game in yugioh there is theres like 20 different floodgates which depending on the opponents deck either kill it moderately annoy it or dont do anything
An MtG game also lasts several turns and the "floodgate" is usually out for a third o half of the game at most.
Yugioh is often decided by the first turn you play, so floodgates are basically out for 100% of the game.
The MtG equivalent would be a Leyline of the Void in the opening hand against a dredge deck. You'd just scoop as soon as your opponent drops it on turn one
The biggest reason MtG's floodgates are less hated is because A. Most decks don't crumble to a single hate card unless they're extremely degenerate like Dredge or Storm and B. The most general floodgates, like Ensnaring Bridge, come down turn 3. Prior to turn 3, you have time to counter it, hand disrupt it, draw an out or just establish a winning game state to ignore it. This, plus the fact you get to draw 7 instead of 5 and have mulligans, means you're much less likely to have a total non-game.
As a true draco player I do 100% love flipping floodgates. My favorite duel of all time was when I gozen summon limit skill drain a VW player. I still look back on that duel with complete joy.
I do think floodgates can exist in ygo but they are just unable to print a good one that isn't obnoxious.
In the digimon TCG every floodgate is usually tied to a weak body( similar to barrier statue, just run over it, removal for weak bodies is wide spread in that game) and rarely restrict the actual actions. Two examples would be "you can't gain memory(basically Mana, your main resources) except from tamers" because thats your main source. Or "you can't reduce play cost". You can still play. You just pay more.
Ygo restricts basic card types with anti spell. And on top you need inconsistent spell/trap removal to break through. If decks had in archetype mst that they can search, floodgates wouldn't be so game changing
What kind of effect or stats does a floodgate need to have to make it good, but not obnoxious?
@@illdoittomorrow2368 that's a good question and with how diverse archetypes function, not easy to answer.
At first, floodgates should never be trap cards. A player should be able to plan accordingly. Also I despise that most floodgates can be one sided this way, activating summon limit after you established your board.
A monster with 1000 to 1500 atk should be good enough to withstand some monsters while most decks should have a normal summon to out it.
For effects, chain energy is quite fair. You can still play, you just pay for every action and you can remove it.
I would also say banish effects like d fissure should be ok, cards in the GY are supposed to be gone. The fact that so many decks get screwed over by them is more towards how poorly designed the decks are.
But ultimately, like in the video mentioned, we want interaction. So we should get access to outs. If any deck can go into knightmare phoenix to pop back row, floodgates become instantly less obnoxious. Many decks have already in archetype a rota, a reborn, a counter trap etc, why not a mst? A searchable back row removal should be part of any archetype. As well as spell traps should be more present in many archetypes. People don't main deck twin twister because non-control Decks barely play any back row so the card would be dead. Many decks could be more like tri brigade( which search revolt as part of their combo)and use traps in their endboard, main deck back row removal would be more common and floodgates would be frequently threatened.
Lastly, you could make any floodgate a fieldspell, which would mean you can't stack them anymore.
Yugioh is just too fast for floodgates to be reasonable.
Masquerade is maybe the only floodgate that isn't just a coinflip on whether it instantly wins and thats because it gives you 13 activations before it locks.
In older formats floodgates were less problematic because of backrow hate in main deck and less reliance on combo. We can however never return there and should therefor ban floodgates to ensure the modern game is as healthy as possible.
@@MrNovascar i like the idea of having floodgate monsters be small enough for a normal summon to remove it, in conjunction with non-monster floodgates being limited to spells. that way traps could be mostly battle traps which would make the battle phase fun again. normal summons would have to be protected in this case however. the floo field spell that punishes you for normal summoning something to remove barrier statue is the kind of card that defeats this whole set up.
@@illdoittomorrow2368 Affecting both sides equally. That's all it has to do to make it good but not obnoxious. In example, Royal Decree is effectively the most fair floodgate to exist. It doesn't stop any of the things that would be used to remove it, hurts both sides the same amount (the royal decree user almost certainly built their deck around the fact that traps are unreliable in the match, which in itself is a downside because it restricts their ability to stop opponents' plays all the way back in the deckbuilding phase), and its effect isn't game-winningly strong.
Another method would be to staple unavoidable downsides to the effect that balance it out. For example, Imperial Order would be a balanced card with an errata. All they'd need to do is make the LP cost non-optional, unavoidable, make it able to bring you below 0 LP, and at that point all they have to do is find the sweet spot. The correct LP cost per turn would make it fair at that point.
Another potential option to make a floodgate fair would be a built-in effect that makes it easier to remove. For example, a built-in effect that lets either player simply pay LP to remove it from the field. Or self-destructing whenever targeted by anything.
You don't need to avoid the "this floodgate shuts down my archetype" effects. In fact, you NEED those types of floodgates, as it encourages a more thoughtful approach to deckbuilding. However, those archetypes still need to be able to get rid of the floodgates that counter them, that's what makes it a game. Losing in the deckbuilding phase is a you problem, not a game design problem, so long as the game actually gives archetypes the necessary cards to out the floodgates that target their strategy.
I was always under the impression they're in the game to keep certain strategies in check. For example, if Runick absolutely slayed and was Tier 0, you'd go straight into Anti Spell Fragrance. It gives each deck an easy counter.
I should have realised, Gage's take was too good to not be the imposter
As a kid I drew evenly twice against the best player at my locals, and let me tell you, being at table one that day was the best feeling of my life
MBT: Why are floodgates more hated in Yugioh than MTG?
Me: Wonder why all the commander tables I go at locals despise stax decks.
As a casual player who's only been playing Masterduel for 2 months now ... I do 100% feel satisfied winning with a 15 turn game going back and forth floodgating their combos. 100%.
I like the idea of floodgates when they work in harmony with the deck they are supposed to be played in. Cards like Rextrum feel both incredibly thematic and very satisfying to summon. My big problem with floodgates is that there are simply too many generic floodgates that are also incredibly powerful. These floodgates are not limited to decks that need them to succeed, so they often end up bolstering already powerful decks to further widen the gap between decks
Disagree on the first part. Dinomorphia was a dope as hell grindy control deck. Now it's just skill drain turbo.
Similar thing with how shadoll actually has so many cool and creative combo lines, but none of them matter as long as scism and winda exist.
How is a one sided skill drain, that prevents you from playing harmonizing with the deck? Instead of printing shit like feather storm, kali yuga, rextrum, konami could make decent support for weaker decks instead of just printing cards that prevent your opponent from playing. The mekk knight floodgates are designed well imo, it fits their gimmick and doesnt lock you out from playing
@@eclipse3479 Agree. The Mekk-Knight style floodgates are probably the way to go in the future. Targeted and easy to play around.
@@eclipse3479 Kali yuga is fine since it isn't summoned on the opponent's turn, also have a problem with gigant spright?
Completely disagree about Rextrum. That thing is the definition of a miserable floodgate given to a rogue archetype that makes it unfun. Skill Drain on legs is so uninteractive.
I think floodgates that have any of the following are not okay: 1, shut off entire mechanics of the game (IO, statue), 2, force you to have the out at the exact same time of activation (anti-spell), 3 only apply to your opponent, or are lingering effects. If it has more than one of these qualities it’s probably toxic. Floodgates that don’t have these properties are probably okay in some cases where proper deck building and meta knowledge can help play against them. But it’s also a card game so we will always have variance
The problem with IO is that the user can simply choose to stop hurting themselves with it. Not that it shuts off spells. It is a bit rough that it shuts off spells, because spells were the primary way of removing backrow when it was printed, but now monsters do everything in the game, so it's fine at this point.
For the record, nearly every good card in the game does the things you describe. Effect Veiler is a one-sided effect that forces you to have the out at the exact time of activation and shuts off entire mechanics of the game. Literally the only part of that it doesn't have is the lingering effect. Fair point, hand traps are toxic and bad for the game. Bad Reaction to Simochi only affects your opponent, not only shuts off an entire mechanic of the game but also hurts the opponent for using it, and lingers. I would hardly say that's a toxic floodgate.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 IO is fine at this point? It was banned a year ago, I know post-POTE powercreep is crazy but IO is absolutely not fine at this point.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 See the thing is though handtraps are necessary and do have skillful play for example baiting it out or playing around it not to mention in the case of effect veiler it only *targets* one monster which you have many ways to allow it's effect to resolve one of the most interesting ways is to remove it from the field so it won't be affected by veiler. In the case of a card like skill drain it's non targeting, affects all monsters on the field and not just one and like you said it's a lingering effect and unlike veiler there isn't many ways to play around skill drain
@@Honest_Mids_Masher Hand traps can only ever be necessary in a format where first turn OTKs are the norm. It's literally impossible for them to be necessary in any format where normal traps can be activated before the duel ends. As to whether there's skill involved in playing single use negates... that's debatable, but I wouldn't argue with it too much. The thing that you said which is most incorrect is that there are more ways to play around veiler than there are skill drain. By the nature of the cards, that's untrue. Everything you can do to play around hand traps, you can do to play around skill drain... and skill drain also has additional ways to deal with it, because it's tied to board presences. MST doesn't out ash blossom. It sure as hell outs skill drain.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 I disagree with just about everything you said. Not being able to interrupt plays would actually lead to negate boards being strong. The reason those decks aren't as strong and are able to be kept in a closer power level with most other decks is because they have choke points that can be interrupted and it takes an actually skilled player to identify those btw so your point about single target negates not being skillful is pretty bad.
There's also skill involved in playing around it which was a point I brought up in my previous comment but you just took it as "drawing the out". I don't see extenders playing around skill drain nor is there a way to bait out skill drain since it's a lingering effect anyways they can just flip it up in standby and not much would change unlike veiler where using it on the first summon could potentially be a bad idea. Skill drain is literally a draw the out situation. Veiler is nothing like that.
As for skill drain having multiple ways to out it that point is utterly worthless considering not many people are dumb enough to put all the backrow removal in the world just for one trap card. In matchups that don't rely on spells and traps you're basically holding a bunch of bricks in your deck
I've always thought that the issue with trap floodgates is actually not any of the text on the card
The problem is, as opposed to a combo deck, where their end aboard might be crazy but you have multiple places to interrupt them, if my opponent does set 5 pass, there was never a point where I could do anything about it. There *are* backrow outs sure, but far fewer, and nothing you can use out of hand turn 1, so they will always get to flip their floodgate.
Problem is that konami has made it very hard to print a like [handtrap for set cards] that doesn't hit normal trap decks as well.
They kept eating coder alive and I'll be honest, a good chunk of the stuff he says any other given day sends me to the moon. But he was absolutely correct when he says floodgates belong in the game, specifically more for casuals. Those who cant get a grip on the game tend to go for easier wins and they get satisfaction from it. An example is my friend who in MD, is literally stuck in gold, cannot get past gold 5 and cards like ash confuses him. But he plays a stun deck that has a 3% win rate against say my swordsoul or spright, and he throws a parade if I lose to "insert floodgate here". Do floodgates suck? YES, but that wasnt the question.
He's also on the money saying there are players who hate FTKs/OTKs and love floodgates for that, cause honestly, that's me.
@@GarlyleWilds I mean yeah to be fair
What's the difference between skill drain and a board with enough negates to basically skill drain all the monsters in your hand
@@milesandrews6711 Well, full negates boards can more easily be countered if you drew exactly the good hand trash you need to counter them in your opening hand and they also takes 15 minutes to set up. Another difference is that they feel you with boredom on top of the primal rage you experience at having someone telling "You can't play LMAO" because they waste your time doing so.
Meaning that while Floodgates encourage primal and violent reaction, full negates board works with the hope that your opponent will fall alseep before they start hurling rocks at you.
@@milesandrews6711 you can in fact play around 5-6 interrupts with a good deck, right choices and your opponent making either wrong choices or incorrect decisions based on lack of your deck/hand knowledge. I broke a Swo board of 5 interrupts with Despia, had someone broke my full Spright board with Tears, saw a friend play through 6 in a Tear mirror. I think that is skillful. I don't mind ppl going for floodgates to win, but I do hope Konami makes sure monkey flip is never the best deck.
I adore this series. Thanks lads for another great show.
They thing is that floodgates don't punish the user hard enough to be considered fair. You already have a deck centered around that floodgate, thus you mitigate any hinderance it causes you (Like Skill Drain in Eldlich or Gozen with Stealth Kragen). I think floodgates should punish the user harder in order to be accepted.
Maybe something like: Paying lifepoints to activate it and maintain (even more than IO), unable to activate certain cards while that floodgate is active, unable to attack nor inflict damage to your opponent while it's active, a turn limit (can only be active for 2 or 3 turns).
or ya knwo you can just run the out
@@sharktenko267 ah yes "run 10 quick play removal to be sure you can get rid of all the floodgates the opponents cna throw at you". Sure, I'll put that along with my 12 mandatory hand traps and enjoy a 18 cards deck.
@@MrLednard Yes. Just like the people who play floodgates do, because that's the sacrifice made to have a chance going 2nd most of the time lol.
meanwhile no one has any problem with cards that do things like add one to hand, destroy cards on the field and also draw for it, all on your opponent's turn. no that kind of advantage is fair but hey flip a floodgate and you should have to pay!
@@kapwns Fuck those. It's my turn, I get to play.
i love this series, actually hilarious watching these 4 banter with eachother
I do like the idea of super targeted floodgates for utility in weird contexts being used to enable super targeted anti meta strategies like the boss monster of the ursarctics.
Floodgates absolutely have a place in yugioh as the idea of them isnt inherently unfair and can be played through just fine in a best of 3 format since you can always side deck in more removal. some floodgates have proven to be way to powerful as time passes, I.O. and Vanity's for example but i feel like the real issue is when decks use multiple floodgates to prevent any interaction at all. also that many floodgates shut off a core mechanic of the game for a minimal or non-existent cost like skill drain. i feel like the best move for konami would be to ban all current oppressive floodgates and exchange them with new versions that have higher, repeated cost to use in addition to only LIMITING a core mechanic instead of shutting it down all together. Id also like to see them label all floodgates AS floodgates in the card text so that they can implement a new rule like only allowing 1 floodgate type card on your field at any given time.
Turn all floodgates into field spells
Drawing an out to a floodgate is different than playing through it. The whole point of most floodgates is that its impossible to play through them without side deck cards, which is terrible game design imo. It just makes the game way more luck-based
I agree. Floodgates have a place in yugioh, but not the floodgates we have now that shutdown entire strategies at no cost to the player who played them.
For example, there is a place for "a card like TCBOO", but the TCBOO that we have now should be banned. It should have been created with a significant maintenance cost.
Another example is Imperial Order, having a way to shut down spells might allow for more strategic options, but "pay 700 LP every Standby Phase" is a joke of a cost.
This series is fantastic. It's so fresh and the best part is I don't have to read any cards.
This was really fun!
I would recommend that they always think
deep about the topic like Kevin did
I think one of the biggest issue are floodgates you can't realistically respond to outside of specific interactions. If you activate dimensional barrier, and your opponent doesn't already have spell/trap negate live, they're done. There's no way to play around it depending on the deck. I had a game were I was playing exosisters vs crystal beast, and the only reason they won or almost won (i forget) was because they had drawn 3 consecutive d-barriers. However, the deck wasn't good enough to actually capitalize on the chances given. At least skill drain can be mst'd.
I think floodgates can be cool only in the right decks. D.D. Survivor Monarchs, Skill Drain Beatdown? Those are pretty fun. I think that floodgates need to have an easy out though. As oppressive as Vanity's Emptiness was, at least it goes away if a card is removed from your field. More conditions like that would be good. Maybe like an XYZ monster that's some kind of floodgate on legs, but you'd have to detach materials to keep the effect persistent. Impactful but very outable, you know?
So I can see the thoughts behind this my friend but there’s precedent why those don’t work. Let’s look at how yugioh is played now. All it takes is one turn if you’re playing a competent deck to win so locking out your opponent at all for one turn is a death sentence. Cards like Vanity’s are also a huge issue because it’s a controllable floodgate. So not only do you lock down your opponent from special summoning but you can usually send something to the grave to remove it’s effect. Many meta decks were built off of that. If floodgates were to exist at all having in archetype floodgates that force you to play a deck are reasonable because for instance Rexturm for dinomorophia forces you to play Dinomorphia in order to get it on your board or even a engine in your deck. I guess all I’m saying is floodgates that are outable have existed and sadly still broke the game. I do very much agree though with your point on decks that have to give up something or play a very certain way might be able to have floodgates monarchs requiring a tribute monster and no extra deck to have the lock is appropriate. Placing restrictions on the controlling player would make floodgates actually have a cost to play for such a strong effect.
@@KingGladearYugioh Yeah after I finished typing my comment I figured out of the issues you listed. Vanity's outable weakness didn't prevent it from getting banned after all.
Maybe the issue is that most floodgates are a simple activation and cost? Like you said, floodgates should also force the user to give up some actions and options, but maybe they should be high investment by design? Difficult to get out even? In the end it's very hard to design a card that prevents a player from playing.
Bagooska pre links wasnt ok.
@@luminous3558 bagooska literally came out in circuit break a link era set
Hot Take: Floodgates do have a Place in Yugioh, but they need to balanced out for their effects.
In Dinomorphia the Rextrem is a Full Floodgate on effects as long as the Monsters are on the field and they have more attack than your LP. I feel like that's a card that doesn't generally break the game and can be dealt with by most decks.
But when cards like TCBOO, Rivalry and Gozen are released, I completely agree these aren't healthy for the game due to their absurd generic floodgate effects. I think these cards shouldn't be in the game or be limited to make them inconsistent, especially in a game like Master Duel where it's a best of one.
I'm a bit biased since I don't care for Floodgates since I play outs constantly and play decks that generally can deal with them like SS. Also I play Rivalry so I don't get my Cards Kaiju'd. That's pretty much why I play Rivalry lmao.
This is such a complex issue because while floodgates are definitely a problem, I’m surprised that no one mentioned how oppressive it can be to go up against an end board of a combo strategy, so to that extent, if floodgates are an inherent issue, what about a 8 negate board with Apollousa and the rest? You basically just have to draw the out with DRNM or droplet (or even kaijus/lava golem), but the same can more or less be said by drawing cosmic cyclone or twin twisters for floodgates.
Obviously combo decks require extensive knowledge and use up a lot of resources in order to bring about that type of board, but its a similar issue. Floodgates should be kept to a minimum regardless though, and/or have a hefty cost to bring out like Plasma needing 3 tributes
Havent even finished the vid but
"People who are dogshit at the game love floodgates"
Is a take that I can't help but love tbh
Coder absolutely had the most based take and I love that Joseph and Gage could not process where he was coming from xD
At a certain level of casual, a win is a win. If Joe Shmoe takes a game off Jesse using pure degenerate stun, you bet they’d brag about that FOREVER. Look at how popular Mystic Mine was in TCG and how popular Runick Stun is in MD. Sure, it feels BETTER to take a win using pure skill, but that doesn’t mean you can’t still feel good about a bs win.
I was a dedicated Guru player for years. Sometimes the fun is in being able to manage your floodgates and negates to just get your opponent to the point where they rage quit. For some people, THAT IS FUN. As Coder said, it can be really satisfying to flip up TCBOO against a combo player trying to pop-off. Just as some people don’t like stun, others don’t like sitting through 10 minutes of board set-up
I agree completely. For some fucked-up reason, I really enjoyed playing VFD virtual world and locking opponent to death. I know, I should seek help
I feel this, I still remember how mad I was at combo players when they ended up on an insane negate board that I ran a mystic mine stall deck with simochi burn as a means of revenge. I was screaming with joy whenever I saw my opponent summon a monster and couldn't activate its effects lol.
As a lover of Guru control and a man who plays stax in mtg this is why floodgates are fun. Holy fuck does it feel amazing to stun people out
As disgusting as floodgates are, I do see the appeal for people who wanna just turn off their brain and hide behind them. It usually saves time and you get to watch your opponent suffer if you're into that. Personally I think floodgates shouldn't exist at all, but eh.
Ngl, I kinda get DistantCoder. New players can latch onto stuff like Goblin Attack Force Skill Drain and be introduced to neat card interactions before they get introduced to the heavy combo stuff
Yu-Gi-Oh already has the reputation of way too many words; forcing every new player to learn how to play combo while getting used to reading so much text seems like too big of a barrier to entry
Not to mention while combo decks are simple once you get the game. It's hell trying to learn the game along with combos and if and when to do things. Decks like eldlich are simple. Hell, Jeff Leonard, the only man the Community said was ok to play mine, played the deck because he wanted a simpler game because modern combo decks are a nightmare as soon as interruptions are involved
WOW, I never would have guessed them as the imp. The other takes sounded so sincere, amd I watch Joe n Kevin so I had a strong grasp of their takes. Absolutely well played
This show is so good, hope you keep doing some podcast style content after this series
All the arguments were honestly really reasonable. Even coders had a good reason for them being in the game, but pointed out they were flawed. Hard to guess. The imposter played it super well too.
Coders angle was rough i feel because he approached the question from a different angle entirely. Everyone else talked more about worst case scenarios and how it has been with floodgates, but i agree that they can serve a purpose in yugioh, maybe with a different design approach. So saying that they have a place at all seems reasonable.
Coder's "skill" angle was just stupid. Floodgates have nothing to do with skill. Not using them doesn't automatically make you more skilled, nor does it require more skill to win a game without them. It came across as bitterness at himself having lost in the deckbuilding phase too many times, which in itself is a skill issue on his end, rather than an actual nuanced and well thought out idea.
these discussion videos are so great
I hope we're going to see more of this. Not just a great format, but am excellent way to drive discussion around current issues and share opinions.
Oh God I love this series, please keep doing it
I feel generic and strong floodgates that stop main parts of the game and reduce the game aren’t usually good BUT I feel certain decks can definitely use floodgates like bad decks that need a certain mechanic like GY decks might need them to have balance
The issue is that unless you make a floodgate VERY specific and locked into an archetype, a better deck that can play it will just run it. And if you make it that specific and most other decks can't play under it, the floodgate deck might just become the best deck because of that.
On one hand, it feels really bad for a Dragon Maid deck to be forced to scoop the moment Macrocosmos or Necrovalley hit the field. On the other hand, if you lost the game in the deckbuilding phase, that's largely a skill issue on your end.
Floodgates with workable restrictions are fine. Like lose one turn comes to mind
Is lose one turn a good card?
@@illdoittomorrow2368 it's not a bad card, it's just not as good as skill drain so it doesn't see play.
"Activate only if you currently control no Special Summoned monsters. While a monster is face-up on the field, negate its effects during the turn that monster was Special Summoned. If an Effect Monster(s) is Special Summoned in Attack Position: Change it to Defense Position."
Thank you for bringing up Zombie World. That stupid thing just turns a bunch of decks off for no damn reason.
I like playing floodgates when I'm having a shit day and I want to be a menace to society.
Empen is literally a floodgate and it's extremely non toxic. nothing auto loses to Empen. floodgates shouldnt be game ending restrictions. the problem is that floodgates are so ridiculously powerful and sacky it's feels super unfair. a weaker but more consistent kind of floodgate like empen is the way to go for floodgates.
also droll is a floodgate. i dont think anyone is gonna say droll has no place except when paired with reincarnation or some other gimmicky crap.
another thing to make floodgates less toxic is to make them easy to out and difficult to protect. if a floodgate said "the controller of this card must banish this at the end of the battle phase" well there's absolutely no way it's gonna be super toxic. it's just forcing the opponent to choose between playing under some restriction or sacrificing their battle phase. vanity's emptiness was designed with this is mind but the problem with it's self destruct condition is that the condition is too difficult to achieve while under the lock. a floodgate that protects itself like IO is just terrible.
My issue with current floodgates are that very often they end up ending your turn, if you play an engine piece and your opponent drops Gozen or Rivalry your turn is often just over. A floodgate like Zombie World or Mistake doesn't end your turn you just have to change your plays.
Zombie World does end your turn if you need to Tribute Summon or if the types of your monsters matter.
Zombie World ends your turn if your extra deck monsters need specific types to summon them
This is actually a really good concept for a pod
Loving this series. Keep it up!
I got into Yu-Gi-oh! because Of floodgates. The game was way too fast for me, so I needed to play floodgates in order to slow the game down in order for me process and understand what certain decks are better at than others. Now I know how to play technical combo decks while playing through interruptions, but I only got to this point because floodgates helped me figure out the strengths and weaknesses of decks.
I think harder floodgates (mechanic limiting) are fine if they are not floodgates that just tell you that you cannot conduct a mechanic but rather limit how many times you can actually conduct a mechanic because then it becomes an equation of "can i work under the resource crunch" of a given cards effects rather than being locked off entirely
+1 . Konami could stand to be a bit more creative with the floodgate design. From a resource crunch like you mentioned to just having non-traditional outs like "if either player summons a Normal Monster, banish this card" or something similar.
Except I guarantee you that if El Shadoll Winda were to return to prominence, people would whine and moan and want it banned, even though that's exactly the sort of effect you're describing.
@@WavemasterAshi its funny since winda has been an outable and outed card since 2014 but yeah
@@WavemasterAshi Ignorant morons will whine no matter what happens, and want the things they don't like to go away, no matter how bad for the game it would be if they got their way.
This is by far my favourite yugioh series on UA-cam. Nailed it guys.
As a person who got back into competitive yugioh from when I played in 2014 playing a deck like floowandereeze and now labrynth are ways I can some what learn what the newer decks do by figuring out what stops they're combo or main plays
Joseph I just popped a melatonin you cannot do this to me
I think floodgates could exist as long as they are for a specific archetype. The biggest one I can think of off the top of my head is like the Icejade spell that locks out your opponent effects but only Icejade can use it. Same thing for Altergeist, only Altergeist cards can't have their activation negated but it's locked to an archetype.
I disagree. While sure those cards are within an acceptable power level, they are often a crutch for Konami's designing team. Icejades could've been a unique take on Unchained-like gameplay, but instead they are a floodgate turbo deck. Dinomorphina has great potential for bosses with cool effects, but instead got a skill drain on legs. The list goes on.
I agree. Think of decks like Umi control. It fits nicely with the theme of the deck. You've literally summoned an ocean to the field and filled it with a giant sea monster. It makes sense that only 1 non-water monster could occupy that space.
Not to mention, there are quite a few outs to umi control using generic hand traps. In a best of 3, generic removal spells like cosmic cyclone also allow you to deal with the board easily.
It's a floodgate that is archetype specific and requires multiple cards on board, so it isn't splashable (pardon the pun) and it takes set-up, AND generic hand traps and removal spells counter it.
It's on theme for the deck, good for new players, does have a combo that needs to be achieved before the floodgate is enabled, and there are plenty of generic counters. I think that is good deck design.
One of the biggest issued with floodgates in Yugioh is that the cards in your opening hand represent about 20-30 cards between your main and extra deck. Any card that restricts use of general game mechanics is going to affect most decks in the modern design paradigm. On top of that, the speed of the game and the generic nature of most floodgates means that even single-turn effects can win you the game.
MBT brought up MtG having floodgates, but the playable ones are too specialized to be part of a core game plan.
I am really enjoying this series! Maybe do a live episode on stream once? Would be fun for me to watch
The problem with floodgate to me isn’t really about the floodgate themselves, it’s about “the out”. Konami in general has been slacking on making good going-2nd cards, and it is frustrating as hell when we have less shits that can out floodgates than actual floodgates themselves. Even though Gageh usually has shitty takes, I somewhat agree with him on this one. If your deck just instantly lose to a single floodgate with no capability to work around it, then your deck is just not going to be able to compete with the meta. This is not a bad thing by any mean, but it is unfortunately the truth, and it’s not your fault. The blame is really on, if your opponent has the ability to flip these ridiculous, sometimes searchable generic floodgates on you, why couldn’t you have the ability to just, well, “draw the out”? Because these “outs” are not only “outnumbered” but also “outdated”.
And before you comment something like, well some floodgates has back-ups like the Solemn brigades or other interruptions or uhhh Imperial fucking Custom or whatever, and some are just too ridiculous to create an out for. 1 - Hence why we need better outs, and 2 - When a floodgate is too strong or too easy to abuse, mainly when they are searchable (BSoSW, Scythe, Mine, VFD, Djinn, etc), they should be, and they would be, and for the examples i gave, they already have been, banned.
Photon Hypernova gave us Pharonic Advent which makes all continuous trap floodgates searchable lol.
Just draw the out lmao
@@createrz8433 ok dude, with all due respect, how do you think i’m not prepared for this yet? 😂
> If your deck just instantly lose to a single floodgate with no capability to work around it, then your deck is just not going to be able to compete with the meta
the problem with this take is that every deck loses to at least one floodgate. Tell me what deck doesn't lose to one of: skill drain, rivalry, tcboo, anti-spell, dbarrier, or gozen?
Branded is arguably the best deck in the tcg, and if I flip tcboo on the summon of aluber the game is literally over.
but overall, we need more searchable pops. spright smasher, virtual world gate chuche, swordsoul blackout, every deck needs cards like this if floodgates are going to exist.
@@stuckmeister7750 i can somewhat understand this. However, i think it’s a combination of both not losing to a lot of floodgates (for example Branded might have trouble playing around TCBOO but not as much trouble around the other examples you’ve given. Compare this to Madolche, my favourite deck, which kinda crumble against most floodgates) and just the overall power-level/consistency that make it meta-relevant in cases when your opp does not draw the floodgate that you just insta-lose to.
But yeah, solid point nonetheless. While i do think that generic floodgates like Skill Drain, tcboo, etc are just not fun, regardless if you think they are healthy for the game or not, it is impractical to think that Konami would ban them any time soon. So the solution, as i said and as you reiterated, is just to print better outs. Red Reboot was a good example of this, just in a wrong direction (cause it is also a floodgate and some random Eldlich player out there might think i’m biased), and the recently released Thrust is an amazing take on the “just draw the out” meme. So we can MAYBE, copium, be a bit hopeful on Konami’s ability to give better outs
Kevin is right. People that are not as skilled LOVE floodgates. They defend them all the time all the time. Especially with the advent of Master Duel. After all the Eldlich spam, you think people didn't like winning? Nah. They liked it for sure. In pretty much every comment section about this you will find people defending crap like floodgates just like they do Maxx C.
I think in paper there is also the fact that playing a stun deck can usually be a lot cheaper then playing meta and gives the poorer players a chance to actually play the game.
@@TainyaGaming Except they really aren't playing the game. They are just making it so their opponent can't play the game, either.
@@TainyaGaming stun does not play the game cause floodgates are designed to stop the game being played. if a stun deck is interactive its a poorly deck built stun deck.
I think certain floodgates are okay like Secret Village of the Spellcasters for example because it requires a specific type of monster on the field to be active on the field and they can hurt the controller of the card as well.
"I hate floodgates." -Kevin, who has unapologetically played Runick Mine on DB in the past
alright i'm all up and ready for Gage to have the worst take and still not be the sus impostor
EDIT: you know this is a weird episode when GAGE has a good take holy shit (jk gage ily)
EDIT2: right back at me.
Before watching I just want to say two things
1) love the series
2) the lack of decisions that can arise with floodgates is not an enjoyable experience for me. When an element of time limit is involved (like bagooska) I find them entertaining on both sides. I think floodgates are at their best when acting as stop signs ("you are winning in X turns") rather than a road closure sign ("you are not winning until this card is clear").
Bagooska might as well read you are not winning till this card is gone since there's no way you're going 2 turns without dying in modern Yu-Gi-Oh if you don't setup a board
@@milesandrews6711 that is a fair point. My primary point for bringing up bagooska is the time limit not so much its own effect.
As an aside, it is not crazy to clear bagooska (imo). If your deck link summons you will likely be able to climb up to a big enough monster to clear it. A lot of archetypes have spell/trap negation and/or removal which help too. It's definitely a frustrating card to play around but not impossible. This might be impacted by the decks that I play having easier outs to it (searchable negation/removal, big enough link monsters, and monsters whose effects trigger in hand or GY.
a friend of mine made his first deck on Master Duel when it came out. His favourite deck was barrier statue turbo, with floodgattes and Moon Mirror Shield.
He didnt... have fun with it? but he didnt wanna read and still wanted to play YuGiOh, so thats how he played.
I think it's important to point out the difference between a floodgate and a floodgate like effect. I think flipping a singular card and having it blank an entire strategy is bullshit. Flip Skill Drain and win is absolutely terrible. But take something like Icejades. No one will say that they're good. Not even remotely. But they have a three card skill drain. Yeah, it's oppressive and can win a game in and of itself, but it's extremely fragile. Lose one singular part and the whole lock falls either partially or completely apart. Having to work to get a floodgate effect that's also significantly easier to out is leagues different than drawing Mystic Mine and just staring at your opponent for 15 turns while they slowly die inside. One card floodgates are awful, but I think there's some wiggle room with more elaborate and fragile floodgates.
With most generic floodgates, I think the main problem is that Konami doesn’t exactly tend to look back nor think ahead when printing the cards. The concept of a floodgate is simple enough but it doesn’t seem like Konami understands enough nor retroactively or even proactively reflects on how floodgates would affect the game as a whole.
floodgates make old decks playable. the biggest draw to ygo is to play old decks for a LOT of players. also floodgates like skill drain are traped in bad decks.
And the powers that be don't want you to play old decks because $$$
It's not just YGO, there are a lot of casual-level players that like slower floodgate-y decks in other games as well. The primary issue with YGO is that the effects tend to be too binary in comparison.
This is gonna be kind of an essay, and this may eventually end up aging extremely poorly depending on if making this floodgate gets stupidly easy in the future, but I feel like this really adds to the topic of "what makes a good floodgate". This isn't anything objective, is 100% my opinion, and is probably biased by how much I love to suck off Yang Zing, but I genuinely feel that "Chaofeng, Phantom of the Yang Zing" is the only fun floodgate that requires skill to properly play. All you need to know is that it's essentially a walking skill drain / soul drain / mind drain that affects your opponent's monsters based ONLY on the attributes of the "Yang Zing" monsters it's synchro summoned with. While that seems strong, Chaofeng doesn't actually negate anything and only stops activation, meaning that any effect similar to something like special summoning Cyber Dragon or any Kaijus can still happen since they technically don't activate. Outside of a Yang Zing strategy Chaofeng doesn't serve much purpose other than being an occasionally relevant searcher / extender and maybe floodgateing lights with a good enough board setup, but within a mostly pure Yang Zing build it's a genuine win condition.
That might make it seem like Yang Zing just has this easy monster to end on that guarantees a win, you'd be incorrect. Within pure Yang Zing, Chaofeng is not easy to get out given that it's a level 9 synchro in an extremely slow deck, and that in order to have it's floodgate actually be useful it's not something you can blindly make. Chaofeng's floodgate not only requires you to already know in advance what your opponent is playing, but also requires that you know a good route to summon Chaofeng for any mix of attributes. Then, even if you manage to summon Chaofeng with the correct attributes, there's no guarantee that it'll stick around. All of the non-tuner / non-pendulum Yang Zing monsters apply effects to the synchro monster they're used for, but how you make Chaofeng is completely at the whim of what your opponent is playing. There's gonna be plenty of bad matchups where, because of what attributes your opponent is playing, you have to make the decision to either have a stronger floodgate or have better protection for Chaofeng. If you don't use Pulao your opponent could remove Chaofeng with any spell, if you don't use Bixi your opponent can round start imperm Chaofeng, or if you don't use Bi'an your opponent could just beat over Chaofeng. Not to mention that in a best of 3 scenario, your opponent can easily side in Kaijus and essentially remove Chaofeng for free.
IMO, any future floodgates should be designed around how Chaofeng is. Chaofeng isn't a case of "I blindly play this knowing most decks don't have an answer", rather it requires it's user to have vast match-up knowledge of all relevant decks, as well as be a skilled enough player that you can get Chaofeng on the field WITH ALL of the correct attributes WHILE ALSO playing around your opponents interruptions.
this was a chill one honestly
I've said this before, the most frustrating floodgates to deal with are the sacky ones that require no setup (just draw 'em and activate 'em), can only be outed by very specific methods, and basically prevent your opponent from playing the game entirely.
To better explain what I'm talking about, let me talk about a more tolerable floodgate: El Shaddoll Winda
- Most decks that play her will summon her at the end of a combo (either Nadir Servant, Granguignol or Branded Fusion) with plenty of moving parts that are vulnerable to all kinds of hand traps - a single Ash Blossom, Imperm/Veiler or D.D. Crow/Bystial will stop these combos dead in their tracks.
- While she's immune to destruction by card effects, there's still plenty of other ways to out her: non-destruction removal, Super Poly, Kaijus, negating her effect with Imperm/Droplet, or just straight up running her over - most decks nowadays can get something with over 2200 ATK on the field with one Normal and one Special Summon.
- Finally, you still get at least one Special Summon after she hits the field.
People who complain about say, Destiny HERO Plasma dont seem to understand how hard it actually can be to sit there with a brick in hand, and try to summon 3 monsters for a 1900 monster who shuts off monster effects and steals a card to grow stronger. I PLAY Destiny heros, i dont summon plasma often unless I can 100% get him on board. Sure his summoning condition gets around scapegoat (cant be tributed for a tribute summon, plasma tributes 3 to special), but i dont even use scapegoat the best way to get plasma on field is 3 dcubed (their gimmick is to summon Dogma/Plasma), or have a malicious ready to banish, drilldark in hand, and another 1600 or lower attack dhero in hand as well. The only real way to make it "easier" for plasma to come is D - Force, which adds him to hand from deck, and makes him near unbeatable, and gives all of your other cards target protection, AND makes plasma immune to all destuction effects, gains 100 atk PER monster in both graveyards, and can swing twice.
i think there are good flood gates and there are bad flood gates/ things like summon limit that still lets you play it just clamps down on endless combos or iron wall that prevents a mechanic that not every one uses can be fine. it's when you get into full stops to any deck like skill drain imperial order or macro that i think it becomes a problem. heck i don't even mind things like floos empen it has a way to play around it so that if you have a good deck you can keep going it just makes it more challenging
My go to example is Mistake, will it hamper most decks, yeah probably every search attempt is Ashed now. But does it just end a turn, no you still have the 5 other cards in your going second hand. Sure maybe you lost your Rota search but you've forced me to reveal my set card and you can plan around that.
@@TheWizardMus a excellent point! My criteria for a good Floodgate is pretty simple. It must first affect both players, second it must not stop a competent deck from playing just make it harder.
favorite thing to listen to while drawing by far
Casuals DO enjoy floodgates a lot. Exhibit A: me, I don't care about the skill in the game I place those cards in my deck to win so I'm really happy when one of those wins me the game inmediately
I love flood gates because it allows stun/control decks to exist.
there's something that also allows that while also allowing the other player to play
hand traps
@@davidjimenez3822 But that's way too resource inefficient for a slower, control based deck. Take Subterror for example. Even if you have like three relevant handtraps that are just enough to stop your opponent from setting up an unbreakable board turn 1, that only leaves you with a few cards. Now if none of those remaining cards have lasting effects like TCBOO or Gozen, do you really think set Guru -> pass is gonna be enough? That they won't have a normal summon that completely restarts their combo and allows them to play through one or two disuptions? Absolutely not. In a world without floodgates, control decks will get bodied every day of the week. Full stop.
Can floodgates be unhealthy for the game? Absolutely, but which ones are unhealthy is heavily format dependent just like any other powerful card.
@@aitomatica5285 the way I see it, combo kinda is just control with extra steps, so control strats can may as well be something like pure sprights with no other engine splashed in
and by pure spright I mean elf + red + carrot pass
EDIT: the way pure sprights is a control deck is that the deck's goal is having elf bring back spright blue/jet to keep red and carrot online, as well as using them as ammo for smashers
@@davidjimenez3822 And when you consider how few starters most control decks run, opening two of Ash, Veiler, and Imperm is a full-on brick, not a going second hand.
@@tripleoo0 idk doesnt Labrynth have all of its monsters barring lady of the silver castle as starters? Ariane searches, Arianna searches, the furnitures all work as Welcome searches, and Lovely is a generic Normal Trap search
Honestly I kinda agree with coders counterpoint that its fun to play stun. Mainly because it turns the game from a set of objectives to reach with variables to prepare for into instead a game of denial where you have to stone wall an opponents every action. I find that at times that is more fun. I like making an opponent feel helpless and locked out, and I understand that when it happens to me it's fair game.
I once had to tribute set because skill drain lmao (still lost when my monster got popped)
I think umi control is a good example of this. You have to achieve your floodgate, and your game plan is a series of objectives that need to be met. Because of its reliance on multiple cards for the floodgate to be enabled, it is counterable using generic cards like imperm or cosmic cyclone.
This might be the best series on the channel its so entertaining!
I get where Coder was coming from if you're trying to find a place where floodgates fit into the game. A place. Not necessarily THE place.
Seemed like that was his stance and maybe they didn't get how conditional his take was on that distinction.
Floodgates are a tough question honestly because it can give lower powered decks a great tool to help compete against stronger decks but as to be said if a deck gets a searchable and easy floodgate that becomes to toxic. Also it depends on your format too. Floodgates suck so much in MD because BO1 format making it a true draw the out game.
It’s also unfortunate that Konami’s general approach to revisiting and giving old archetypes support is giving them macro or vanities.
@@GrieveIV we are also at a point in the game where due to generic link monsters like knightmare phoenix players are forced to play these toxic ones like skill drain/summon limit etc etc they cant just play stuff like gravity bind cause that would get nuked immediatly
It depends on the deck too, something like Rextrum feels very on theme for Dinomorphia and gives them a way to keep pace with faster decks, especially because their recovery game isn't as strong as other trap decks
@@GrieveIV I feel like in a lot of ways that is Konami trying to bring decks up to speed without investing to much into it which of course doesn’t fix the issues with older decks. For instance I’m really happy they went the direction with RDA by giving them a interact able board wipe it makes the games feel much better when I can play. I wish they would consider giving older decks ways to help break boards and improve consistency to make them better without increasing toxic effects in the game. Umi control for instance such a great concept but it can be really tough to break unless you have a certain out.
@@Takato-ym2dk I can see your point there, floodgates help simplify the board state and slow down breaking down the boards. The biggest issue with a floodgate is in situations where you don’t have a out going second or are already staring down a board and they flip floodgate after getting through all of the other cards. The only good news is they aren’t easily searchable but doesn’t feel great at all seeing a floodgate roll up on you.
As someone very casual, can confirm floodgates are very enjoyable while watching the life drain out of your opponent's eyes
MBT: Releases a video about Mystic Mine at home for master duel
Casual: Sweet! Let me cheese out wins with this funny deck!
MBT: Casuals don’t enjoy floodgates.
i love shifter, macro cosmos and dimfis, popping off with ghoti feels so incredibly good
I actually agree with Gage, in best of 3 you need to be prepared for multiple scenarios. If one or two floodgates shut you down and you cant out them, thats a failure of deck building.
"Just draw the mostly unsearchable out as a backrow deck slowly cuts you off of resources you can't gather and end your life in two or three turns." Remember. Most trap decks now can summon giant monsters for free. Eldlich and Labrynth being prime examples. They can just kill you by doing very little if they flip up TCBOO/Rivalry/Gozen/Skill Drain.
Swordsoul hard dies to tcboo and no deck building outside of "play 15 copies of mst and pray you draw one" solves that issue
Like, this was a problem even during formats when it was the best deck
I have a very simple view when it comes to floodgates. SO long as we have super generic monsters that sit in the extra deck, that have negates on top of large bodies, Floodgates are just main decked hate that for some are a needed evil. Borralload savage should have needed a Dark dragon tuner, Barron could have been a wind tuner. But they aren't that are just whoever can set up combo lines to get to 8/10stars before getting to what they really want. The extra deck boss monster pool is to damn generic. Like if floodgates wore to all be banned and never seen again, then design of the extra deck monster has to change. As much as I hate Tear, with it just being Yugioh's Dredge, they wore built with a gameplan that was different to every deck before them and had little extra deck cross over with anything over the past two years, other then like Sprite Elf. Like before sprite, the common turn 1 end board was like 2/3 Apollo, savage dragon, baron, and a hand full of other things to just say no. More or less it was just floodgate them out, just not in a single (90% of the time at least) trap card. It's honestly why I enjoy master dual as Max C can punish the endless summoning set up of the TGC mindset.
Flood gates are interesting to me in the sense that some of them allow certain decks to play. Macro with metaphys for example. Not only that, it forces the person who's under the floodgate to go a different combo line than what they normally would sometimes
I Will say, as a new player, I, as a main deck card, drew red reboot twice against Eldlich and won the set with salads in 2021. It felt really good.
I think floodgates are fine if they're a reward for making certain plays and/or deckbuilding decisions. If your end boss is a floodgate instead of multiple negates, it's still basically the same thing. I also think that the floodgates being more outable would be nice, maybe by stapling backrow removal into more cards (like how Dracoback kept Skill Drain in check)
Disagree on "floodgates are basically the same as multiple negates"
A card like vfd will always be more powerful than a 3 negate board
The funny thing is that like, Coder's comment about poorer players being able to randomly beat skilled ones is actually something MaRo said was a great advantage of the game when analyzing Magic: the Gathering. And I think he's not wrong about less invested players loving floodgates, because I think a lot of them feel that modern YGO is inherently unfair and floodgates force people to "play fair" and lose to their discount goat control decks. Hell, I'm the kind of person who enjoys jank and control strategies in other games and I'll fully admit I sometimes enjoy getting to use floodgate tools to make a horrible deck actually manage to do something through weakened interaction - there's just not that much room to play anything except The Current Power Creep Decks in Ygo without getting utterly obliterated, having your entire board wiped, having your one card you need to do anything negated, and essentially having absolutely no fun because weak decks in YGO will usually instaloses if your opponent on a decent deck has a brain cell. It's easy to get really pissed off running into idk Kashtira and Branded over and over on the YGO Omega Casual ladder and be like fuck it I'll play some barrier statue nonsense just to have actual games versus them. So I think that he's not wrong when he says that casual players and less enfranchised players like having an option that lets them not have to learn to manage Tear chain links or to have to reach every single card that has Fallen of Albaz written on it or something, hell, you could say that they give them hope because a single Trap card on its own might be able to save them instead of having to depend on drawing exactly the right cards and executing a combo right through interruption.
The problem obviously is:
1. While Floodgates can make bad decks playable, they can ALSO make GOOD DECKS even more oppressive... (The Maxx C Problem)
2. Ultimately many Floodgates literally turn the game into "I have an out" or "I don't" and combo players can just feel like they're sitting there doing nothing, which is incredibly boring for them
But I certainly think there's reasons why the cards exist, and I also think that in general some of them are quite nice. I like Skill Drain a decent amount for instance because it rewards rules knowledge and trying to figure out how to move your cards off the field before your effects resolve, so you can play through it with a lot of decks. And at the end of the day as Gage mentions at least in best of three you usually have the option to play some S/T removal.
Konami finally made a backrow floodgate deck meta, the ycs was filled with flip skill drain, flip gozen, set d barrier from deck (seriously konami wtf is this). Thanks for labrynth i guess.
Kevs take on lower level play was spot on. There’s countless ammounts of players with that line of thinking
I think archetypal floodgates are a lot more interactive than generic ones. Cards like Deus X-Krawler, which has to first be set and then flipped face-up to activate its monster negation, is a lot more interesting than a basic skill drain, even if the effect is relatively similar. It's less of "I drew TCBOO so I win" and more of "I won because I managed to lock down my opponent with the right cards", and I think that works significantly better. Granted, the presence of cards like TCBOO and skill drain make an archetypal floodgate significantly lamer and less useful.