Home Theater Bass Optimization with Multi-Sub and miniDSP EQ
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
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www.audioholics... - Home Theater Bass Optimization with Multi-Sub and miniDSP EQ: For the past decade I've been on a quest to achieve what seemed to be the impossible in my theater room: state-of-the-art bass reproduction for EVERY seat, not just the sweet spots. Using multi-sub to manipulate room modes to reduce destructive interference is part of the solution. The other pivotal part lies in an inexpensive, little black box from a company called MiniDSP. If you want to learn how to achieve perfect bass reproduction for EVERY seat in your home theater and you have the ability to take basic in-room frequency response measurements, this UA-cam Video and the associated article below are a must watch. Get your bass fixed here!
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Good to see you making use of a low cost and practical solution like minidsp. Better 6 years late than never.
Idea: Tutorial How use mini dsp 2x4 HD + import measure rew with 1 or 2 subwoofer.
Fabio Zago yes!!
I found this company and their products about three weeks ago because I was trying to find a simple low pass filter that I could use with my two channel subs because I didn't care for the internal low pass filter. I took a chance on the MiniDSP 2x4HD. Been playing with the settings and running test for about a week. So far I am pleased with the results.
i like hi-fi also surround sound and working out. you guy's seem like smart people.
this many DSP is a miracle. essentially you can tune any size room for those who don't have the budget for a purposefully built theater room. I could see a huge Market evenin the moderate to lower level users because they usually don't have a separate theater room they used the same family room that the kids play in. so to set up a bunch of bass drops is Not Practical at all. this allows anybody more or less with any size room to overcome their acoustic nightmares that they've been forced to live with all this time. thank you 1000 times for making this video it is so informative and it also boosts morale for those of us who do not have a separate theater room.
Thanks for the video! This channel is one of my favorite channels for great quality information. I've been looking into miniDSP and I never realized how remarkable the little thing truly is. I would probably get the 2x4 unbalanced and use it to get the most out of my LCR and LFE.
+Alarik Melse difficultly... I was clearly not thinking straight because I was so tired. Maybe I meant I can use it to better blend the LCR with the LFE? Either way, my comment was crazy but I do plan to get this for bass managment
Been using a minidsp for about two years now...best move ive made
Excellent show gentlemen! As a professional audio engineer it is always refreshing to see good people like yourselves providing cost effective solutions for a broad range of applications. I tend to apply a lot of overkill to everything I do and as you know, overkill is highly under rated and usually very expensive. Bass optimization is one of the most important elements for achieving great sound in any application. Unfortunately, it still tends to be overlooked, especially in home entertainment systems. Not enough people see or appreciate the value in making the investment in this process. Thankfully, you guys are getting the message out there and educating people on what to do. Cheers!
+JamesMHolmes Hi James,
I totally agree with your thoughts but, speaking as a total novice who has just bought his fist subwoofer, I would say that the whole process of obtaining good bass is fraught with difficulties and there is a lot of conflicting advice out there. I feel this is why a lot of people end up accepting less than optimal results.
Personally I tried to choose a reputable, well reviewed, sealed sub (but relatively inexpensive , an SVS) which I use in a 2.1 system from a stereo amp with no bass management. I purchased a SPL meter (which unfortunately I found to be of very limited use, probably due to lack of expertise) and then I undertook a lot of trial and error for determining position, crossover , phase and gain.
To cut a long story short it took weeks and weeks to get bass which I am happy with and, as well as lots of furniture moving, involved two techniques I don't often read about. The first ( not my idea) was putting the foam bungs in my mains' ports , although they are two and a half feet from the wall behind them. The idea being to reduce out of phase bass reflections from that wall. This cleaned up the bass for music but sounded best when I also increased the crossover from what SVS had recommended for my mains and sub.The second idea (my own) was to use a headphone, whose sound balance I liked, to help me to determine the gain. When the level of bass sounded similar for speakers and headphones I was happy.
Now, due to in room variance of bass I am about to invest in a second identical sub and I don't mind telling you I am worried that I will struggle to get the results I want. I eagerly await Gene's next tutorial on the MiniDSP but it seems that I will need some new equipment as I don't think the MiniDSP can be used with only an integrated amp. That is another reason people don't always pursue bass Nirvana. It can get expensive.
Alex Young it sounds like you are on the right track. If it is within your means, you might want to explore implementing a second sub. By doing this you can reduce the point source output of the first sub and have a more even distribution of bass energy throughout your room. The greater the even distribution of bass energy the less the subs tend to excite room modes. The optimum set up is to use four subs and further reduce the connection of the energy to the room by lowering the output of each sub proportionately. I use four subs myself and get excellent results with no acoustic treatment whatsoever.
+JamesMHolmes Hi James,
Thanks for the advice, it is appreciated.
I am definitely going to introduce a second sub but now have a further complication in that I am soon to move house.
A positive there is that I think , but have yet to confirm, that the room I have earmarked as my dedicated home cinema /music room is better suited to that job than the room that I presently use which has a quite asymmetrical ceiling , having a slope on one side and being flat on the other.
When I have recovered from the financial shock of the house move I may invest in a couple more subs because I am sure that you are correct in saying that four is the optimum and this would possibly save on the extra electronics which I possibly would struggle to set up properly in any case. This was something I hadn't really thought about until you stated it , so a big thank you.
What I would have spent on electronics I can spend on subs.
Alex Young Hey Alex, don't be too concerned about asymmetrical spaces because provided they are not drastic changes, asymmetrical surfaces can help break up reflections that can cause comb filtering effects. Those effects can cause severe boosts as well as severe drops in certain frequencies which can massively alter or colour your sound. Speaker placement is key to helping reduce those effects. Maintaining a good disconnect between your speakers and nearby reflective surfaces can further reduce comb filtering. Think of your speakers as a device that is propagating a lobe of energy into the room based on their polar response pattern and give some thought to where the first reflection is going to occur. You can use a flashlight mounted on top of the speaker to assist with this process. You don't want that energy directly returning to your speakers because that begins the cycle of comb filtering. Choosing a sealed sub was also a good plan on your part because it reduces the boominess associated with ported subs especially when used in smaller spaces. In the future you may want to look at purchasing an EV DX-46 processor to manage your system. They can be overwhelming to use at first but you can connect a laptop to it with the free EV control software on it and tune it quite easily using only your ears and an SPL meter. They are not stupid expensive and have enough outputs to give you serious control over your system. The downside is you will need external amplifiers for any unpowered speakers. ATI makes some great multichannel amps that are great sounding and moderately affordable. This is a hobby that you develop over time and does not need to be completed over night so don't feel discouraged if what I'm suggesting exceeds your ability to implement at this moment in time. Set some goals and work towards it. I have been building my system piece by piece for 15 years now. I started out with a stereo set up and now I have an 11.2 rig with 4 subs now and I'm always looking for the next option.
+JamesMHolmes Hi James,
Than you so much for taking the time and trouble to pass on so much valuable advice.
I am printing out your replies so that I can refer to them when I come to set up my new home cinema room.
I must say that "not stupidly expensive" sounds good to me as I am now retired and need to be more careful with money than in the past.
It's the same old story I suppose, when I had more money I didn't have the time or desire to have a top notch theater come music room. Now I am retired I listen to more music and watch more films than I used to and am always thinking of ways to improve my enjoyment. I must say I am looking forward to having that dedicated room at the new house.
Anyway, once again thank you for all the help.
Regards Alex.
Thank's Gene and Hugo for another great and well grounded video.
Right now, I'm running a 9.1 Auro Setup with 2 Subs. I use the DSPeaker Antimode DualCore to manage the subs (gain, decay, phase and EQ/ Auto-EQ). BTW: the Antimode isn't as cheap as the 2x4, but it does a pretty good job in measuring and auto-EQ-ing the 2 subs (channels) and allows huge manual adjustments. -> it's really a bass specialist ;-)
But I also use 1 miniDSP DDRC-88A running Dirac Live to correct the major 7.1 channels ( leaving the surround height out). I'll be going for another one - I should more precisely say a additional DDRC-88BM which was announced on CES 2016. The BM stand for bass managment or so (?) because it allows to combine the speaker managment features of the tested 2x4 with it's 8x8 in-/out matrix additionally to the superb Dirac Live correction in one box!!!
This combined with my existing one would allow me getting all channels "Diraced", sophisticating bass-management capabilities and having several channels in spare to integrate one (ore more ;-)) sub and top surrounds (VOG). Your video causes me optimistic in doing so...
Thanks!
BTW: I want to encourage you really to proof Dirac Live....
I bought a MiniDSP a couple of months ago, along with a UMIK USB mic, and used them with REW to tune my subs. Agree wholeheartedly with your positive experience. Looking forward to the written article which hopefully will contain some detail on your process. Thanks.
+Len Sauer The written article is here: www.audioholics.com/home-theater-calibration/bass-optimization-for-home-theater
I am so glad you finally posted this video and article. I also own a MiniDSP 2x4 and had the same OCD and satisfying results. What I wish you could have sold more is how affordable it is and how the results can be so amazing. To drive this point home you could have compared how buying the affordable MiniDSP for $115 plus the UMM-6 Dayton Auidio Mic for $90 will save you so much more and in return you can get more by saving. What this means is you could buy one JL Audio e112 for $1900 and have one of the best bass management software systems (MiniDSP) instead of taking the less technical more expensive approach and buy a Fathom f112v2 for $3700!?!? You’re saving $1600 by going with the MiniDSP!! On top of this the mic that comes with the JL Audio certainly doesn’t have as much capabilities as the UMM-6 with REW. To bring home the point of how amazing of a product this is, try comparing it to every company that offers “on-board” EQ (like paradigm for so much $$$ and many more) that does not allow you to run tests or tweak so you are basically praying the results are what you can do yourself and prove to yourself.
Even though this review is about the MiniDSP, pointing out how amazing of a setup this is compared to most out of the box items is critical. For example, most microphones that come with receivers for the Auto-EQ feature don’t go below 200 or above 10k Hz. This is something you can test with the UMM-6 and REW. When I was deciding on what new subwoofer to get I brought my tablet, UMM-6 and REW to my local speaker store and tested them all in the store which gave me side by side comparisons. Naturally I went with the one that performed the best which was slightly more than the one that performed the worst which was slightly cheaper.
Keep doing a wonderful job and post proof of how sound panels can improve your room by showing the REW results. Another great idea is to show a simple step by step video of how to take a REW measurement and run a projected filter to be imported into the MiniDSP. This can be done with simple screenshots but more helpful would be to capture it on video to show how easy of a process it really is.
+Rockhurst22 Great suggestions and I plan on doing some followups on room correction stuff so we can address it there. Thanks.
Bass traps are important for reducing RINGING in listening rooms. Multi-subs and "Sound Field Management" are important, but they won't completely take care of modal ringing.
+Jeff Peterson Yes they will. Proper multi-sub and SFM can replace LF bass trapping. Fixing FR also fixes decay times which is repeatedly stated and shown in this video and related article.
see: www.audioholics.com/home-theater-calibration/bass-optimization-for-home-theater
This is NOT opinion but real science.
Been using REW for a month or so now. Great article, new purchases ahead! Love it!
It's funny that our options have been limited for so long in the home theatre world. This technology has been around at an even more advanced and granular level for more than a decade in the pro sound world. I have had the opportunity to have some training learning the ins and outs of the Meyer Sound Galileo loudspeaker management system and associated software. Gene this hardware and software would blow your mind I mean it's not surprising given that's it's used to integrate multiple line arrays and or smaller loudspeakers and multiple subs. It's actually amazing what you do with dsp now. I'm of the opinion that dsp should be used across all channels however at least for the basics to time align to some degree (as well as you can in a small room). MiniDSP with like 75% of the capability at a fraction of the price is God's gift to the home theatre world.
Gene,A very interesting presentation. I just bought a second sub and I am considering trying this approach but I can't seem to find the Dayton OmniMic for ~ $100 on their site. (There is a version 2 selling for closer to $300 as part of a "Computer Based Precision Room Measurement System") Is there another Mic you'd recommend for this at that price level?
Very informative video, I was not aware of how good the 2x4 GUI looked, it looks a little easier than the REW menus. A little less intimidating. So you're saying it only takes a decade, multiple high grade subwoofers, high amounts of OCD, a good mic, REW and the associated learning curve, LOTS of time, and the little black box to get your bass "perfect". Sounds simple enough. Congrats on catching the dragon! I've been looking at the Mini Dsp 2X4 a while, I'm definitely going to get one now. I already have a headache though.
Not to suggest that you go undoing all of the work you did to find this out, but do you think it would be possible to achieve this with only 2 subwoofers? I know you added a 5th, but I wonder how close you could get with just 2. In a mixed use room, 4 or 5 can be a tough sell. Thanks for sharing your agony, suggesting you could accomplish that in an hour or 2 would be cruel.
Gene - I have a DSP in my car (Helix DSP) that I have tuned so I am very familiar with all the terms you are using, as I have lived it all and tuned it all in my car. I am very familiar with the obsessive problem it can bring out in you! BUT I do have a question after watching your video, how/where did you do the tuning for the other speakers? Did you just set the crossovers and auto tuning in the receiver for the smaller speakers? Thanks.
I will be interested to see what your tests show after installing GIK traps, assuming you install an adequate amount
+Jeff Peterson we're only testing one corner for now. My room can't accommodate lots of traps without impacting functionality. As I said in the video, by getting the bass right with multi-sub and EQ, you need very little (if any) LF bass trapping.
Hey guys great video again. Hope you can make a video tutorial on how to actually use this minidsp on an actual home theater setup. That would be very helpful to a guy like me.
I really enjoyed this presentation, anything that improves bass in a room is good news.
At the same time it frightened me because I'm not at all sure I could gets to grips with the process.
Having said that I feel I must give it a go but would really appreciate a very simple instructional that will get me where I need to be.
Is there any chance that Audioholics could do this ?
+Alex Young check out our related article that outlines a procedure. Also in the future I will do a video on how to make in-room measurements.
+Audioholics Thanks, I will do that . I am looking forward to the new video on this. Could I humbly request that you keep it as simple to understand as possible as I must confess that the original video did lose me at times, good as it was.
Room measurements and speaker integration by frequency manipulation are all very new to me but you have definitely demonstrated their worth and so I am determined to try to implement it in my system.
Once again , thanks.
Thanks guys for another informative lesson. I have an SVS PB13 Ultra and another one on the way, would this device help me or should I use the PEQ function built into the sub?
Very nice video. But you should consider getting professional microphones, isn't it all about sound, yes? Does miniDSP effect on group delay?
Very nice stuff you guys! I was hopping more for the Dirac stuff to show because that can be also used with multi sub. It improves the impulse response in the time domain as well. So maybe the question would be here if it would be possible to integrate after this setup of yours and maybe try to polish the sound this way? I've heard that Dirac gives really good results and even Harman has licensed it. Please, would you make a segment about it as well? There is very little or no video on the internet how it can be applied. Thanks!
+Juraj Hatina (Youreye Photo) Harman has their own proprietary system called Sound Field Management (SFM) which is limited to < 300Hz correction. They, like us, believe room EQ is best used at below the room transition frequency which is where the room dominates the response. That said, we will look into the DIRAC option in the near future.
+Audioholics I think the license was for the car audio segment for Dirac and Harman this time. Dirac does some nifty magic for the full range correction but can be limited for only a part of the frequencies etc. But the imaging in the mids is superb, the instruments snap into place and colorations are gone as well. Work like s charm with small and big speakers! I look forward for your review! Cheers
Hey great video guys. For a subwoofer do you measure and filer on the MiniDSP before or after the processor (XMC-1) does its room correction?
As always, keep listening!
Thank you Gene and Hugo for another great informative science based tutorial. My question is I've heard with REW you need to have an external sound card to hook the reference mike into due to most laptops internal sound cards introducing their own frequencies into the mike. Is that also an expense on top of the mike and Mini DSP or can you just use an HDMI cable from your laptop to the receiver for the sending of the test tones ?
+Thomas Hoctor Yes that's why I suggested the OmniMic which has it's own electronics. Otherwise, get a mic preamp/soundcard and calibrated mic. MiniDSP sells a mic I believe or try Dayton Audio.
+Audioholics Oh, ok. That's what I was thinking was correct I just wanted to make sure. I've already got REW on my laptop and I own and know how to use an SPL meter so the mini dsp and the USB mike with an HDMI cable and I'm set. Thanks again for not dumbing things down for the masses. It really makes a difference for those of us who are willing to learn but just need the technical explanations and foundation from which to improve our home systems . What I didn't fully understand regarding acoustics over the last year I watched or reread over and over on your channel and website until I did and having this science based foundation on your site and channel to refer back to has been invaluable to us laymen. At least it has been for me so thank you again for giving the general public the benefit of the doubt that this isn't over our heads because after a year of watching your channel it isn't over mine. I followed and understood pretty much everything you covered in this video and a year ago that would have been near impossible. Not because I was dumb(because I'm not) but because I was uninformed and thanks to you and Hugo and all of your staff at Audioholics that is no longer the case!
Thomas, thank you for your great feedback. A post like yours is what makes Hugo and I so passionate about education. We don't know everything and every day is a learning experience for us too. Glad we can help and hope you have great results with your new calibration.
I am looking for a miniDSP 2x4 to get more linear bass across the room but i don't know which one to buy between the original MiniDSP 2x4 or the new MiniDSP 2x4 HD ? I have an Anthem MRX1120 and 2 Dynamo 1000w. My guess is the HD version would not be necessary for subwoofers management that operate in low frequency. Maybe i'm wrong
Looking at your all subs waterfall graph - you still haver a ton of energy from 30hz and below.
I appreciate you highlighted this as a problem area and I am not surprised at all - but surely you have to categorise that amount of energy present as "ringing"??
+Terry Ellis You need to look again. The response is extremely flat in the front row and almost as flat in the backrow in the 25-35Hz region. see: www.audioholics.com/home-theater-calibration/bass-optimization-for-home-theater/mDSPCal.jpg/image_view_fullscreen
IMO, Waterfalls in REW are a bit misleading since no matter how you change the settings, they are still highly biased towards frequency resolution over time resolution so you don't see instantaneous decay as a result. IN addition, bass trapping below 30Hz would be large and numerous to be effective and I wouldn't want to kill the mutual coupling I got from multi-sub by absorbing that energy.
+Audioholics - In my experience the tighter the Waterfall the tighter things sound so its not a useless tool.
I also think you can look at it the other way - you say more subs less, treatment is needed
I think more treatment less eq is needed - which I personally think is a very good thing.
You mention treatment reduces your headroom - I also feel too much eq does the exact same thing.
But I only work on 1 seat which is a lot easier in a smaller room I agree.
Whats most impressive is how multiple subs fill the nulls in the freq response - thats the best benefit in my eyes for what you have done. Hats off for that.
Another thing - you have obsessed with getting the graphs to look flatter and flatter by the sounds of it - using more filters I assume. I spent a lot of time doing the same thing but found prefer the sound again with least eq applied possible. Maybe its because I have a lot of treatment in the room I prefer this
Thanks, All the best, good informative videos, the other chap looks like he needs to work out more ;)
Love your content guys. I just bought a mini dsp & calibration mic with room eq for my SVS SB13 Ultra and its awesome. Set target in Room eq and imported target eq to mini dsp. so easy. I have targeted flat response from 20-80 at my main seating position and it sounds so much better, what a shame this tech isn't built into my AVR or the sub itself. Had a huge peak around 45 and the rest seem pretty ok with minor adjustments. Do you guys recommend targeting a flat 20-80 or do you guys throw a bit of a boost below 35hz, I've seen a couple of other people recommending a 2-3db boost on low shelf 35hz and below to really fill out the low end. Ive also found a very aggressive 80hz lpf rolloff of 48db to sound best which is interesting. Do you guys have any opinion on it.
+kenmck15 Yes I think its perfectly legit and even preferable by most to boost the low end bass a few dB once you've first flattened out the offensive peaks.
Man you guys are great. The information is fantastic. Please keep doing the videos
You have a picture on the minidsp with Dirac Live, but you actually used the normal version without Dirac Live. Kinda confusing. Have you used Dirac Live yet? All that talk about "fixing the frequency domain in order to also fix the time domain" feels strange when I know how important the impulse response correction that Dirac Live is doing with it's mixed phase filters is...
This solution has been around for years and has detailed instructions on how to implement on AVS Forum from 2013. I'm surprised you guys have just now stumbled on this.
+Drewb99 WE knew about it but never tested it. We don't go on word alone so it's critical that we test and analyze ourselves.
hi very informative video. Will you do a video that will explain how to use the minidsp and rew to eq your home theatre speaker and sub ??
+Alain Pilon Possibly down the road when we get caught up on other topics. Stay tuned for my formal written review of the mDSP unit in the coming months on the editorial site.
What do you guys recommend for a 2 channel listening room with one sweet spot...Can I get a great result with one sub and two bookshelf speakers? I have all the measurement software/hardware required. Just trying to determine if I want two full range towers or to buy a sub or two to compliment my Buchardt S300 MKII bookshelf speakers.
A scientific,informative and authoritative documentation of sound analysis
Bass OCD, ya you know me!
I love these videos on bass, my fellow bass heads.
So now that you have your bass is pretty much set, can you run different movies and not need to adjust the bass at all? Also how many hours of adjusting do you think this should take to set on average? Percentage wise, how much of an improvement do you feel this DSP made for you bass in your home theater? How low can the bass adjustment frequency go down to?
Thank you guys!
Bass...the final frontier.
+sickjohnson I still have level control via sub levels in my processor since they are in the path before mDSP. mDSP made quite a substantial improvement to the quality of bass in my room but you need to carefully examine before/after with a measurement system or its senseless.
Hi! Which dsp will suit me best, I am using a Stormaudio processor and it has all XLR outputs. I purchased the Minidsp 2x4 HD with rca inputs and i am facing a problem with a popping sound from my subs when i switch the system off. Kindly help me with this issue i am facing.
I like and respect you guys a lot, but the picture you have is misleading. I was hoping you'd show a vid on Dirac Live, but you're showing MiniDSP with REW. Very different products. The Dirac Live is also a 2x2 balanced connection with standard XLR in's and outs. You can correct this by using a text overlay on your video describing the mistake. On that note, I would like you're opinion on Dirac Live room EQ since I have the unit and would like more experienced input from guys in the know.
right now I'm running one subwoofer for now I'm using my Denon with Audicy. I think I could benefit greatly from this. where can I buy this unit that is certainly a affordable cost. I don't know if I have effects insert in my Denon how to EQ the rest of the system. I have a AVRs900w
Great video fellas, I have a question I have an rxa2040 and of course one of the ones that only adjust down to 31 hz so would the mini dsp help me down to that 20hz also fronts are bp8080st thanks and keep the info coming love you guys work
Yes connect it to the sub out of your Yamaha receiver and you can adjust bass down to 10Hz.
The company Sweetwater makes an adapter for the MiniDsp 2X4 Balanced version. Would the adapter work you think?
Great video! Question: If you set the sub delays in the MiniDSP, what do you do about the distance setting of the subwoofer channels on the AVR? Thank you!
+SeaBass I would first set the delay on your AVR and back it down (if needed) to compensate for the slight group delay the mDSP causes. I found this to be about 2ms. Then set the delays (as needed) for each sub in the mDSP.
+Audioholics thank you, my Denon AVR works in feet, so I would need to take a feet of two off. My sub pre out goes to my SMS-1 (HPF) and than to my iNuke 6000DSP via balanced ouput. I can adjust independent delay in the iNuke in msec or ft.
Hi guys, i enjoyed the video alot.. But can you recommend a good BOOK or two I can read to introduce me to understanding all these "numbers" with the graphs you show. I barely understand the basics like db and all these other technical terms (but more so how to read/interpret them). My current system is nice (5.1 b&w CM9 series) but want to fine tune. I'm also running 4 subs.
+AndurilNarsil1 Here is a good reference for you:
www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/relationship-between-watts-and-dbs
www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/the-decibel-db
www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/audio-measurements
For advanced reading, we recommend Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms by Dr. Floyd Toole
see: amzn.to/1KU0ctC
Which subwoofer should I get for music? Yamaha NS SW300 or B&W ASW610?
It has been mentioned that you're unable to measure out an odd shaped or room that opens into other areas. Am I wrong? How would this work for that scenario? Mostly I've done the poor mans setup, by ear.
+V Juliano You can measure any room. You just can't predict odd shaped rooms to develop definitive guidelines on where the best locations are for subwoofer placements.
+Audioholics Thanks for the info, I've been in information overload. Would this type of device work with an older AV receiver being a Sony STR-DE515 5.1 @ 100 watts per channel and should be 8 ohms with a single input for a subwoofer that I would like to split.
I currently use Dspeaker Anti Mode for bass eq- have you guys heard of them
damn this is way over my head... would my AVR need this MiniDSP? Yamaha RX-V683 if I run 2 subs?
Can you please do a review of Minidsp nano avr hd (no Dirac) and is there an hdmi audio out convertor to analog rca? Not for movies just audio. I know the avrnano hd has both analog and digital but price not meet my budget. Thanks
Hi guys good video . I purchased the mini DSP 2x4balanced RCA one. I am using 2 subs so its sub out left from my DENON in and 2 out from the device. Mono signal . I have the MIK as well mini DSP one. Still pulling through the measurements . Your right a lot of patience. But a great difference in the bass. Software plugin I have for it is 2x4 advanced. Watched Goosebumps the movie and when those creatures walked with there feet I swore I felt the earth moved!
Good video :) I will try out one of the balanced versions for sure.
I have a RX-A860 yamaha AVR. It has a section that you can manually enter PEQ. Would I even need Mini DSP or could I just run REW and write down the PEQ settings and manually enter them into the AVR and get the same thing?
looks like no one replies to comments here. I'd like to know the same thing having an RX-V683.
Yes you can do that.
Hi. I had a question about running the REW for your subs. Did you send the test signal through the minidsp and then to each subwoofer separately or did you send it through the minidsp and AV processor? I cannot seem to generate a signal by the REW software and then through the dsp to each sub. It is all going though my Marantz.
I send the signal to my AV processor and the miniDSP is plugged into sub out of AV processor fed to the subs. It's usually best to EQ all subs simultaneously AFTER you have them properly positioned, level matched and integrated.
Thank you. That is how I set it up. The problem I have had is that I am also getting the sweep signal through my mains and I cannot figure out how to turn that off other than to unplug them from the processor. Do you have all of your subs running from just one sub output on the processor?
When you say to integrate the subs do you mean to run the Audyssey first?
You want to run the mains with the subs to better integrate their transition anyways. If you really want the mains off, just unplug them. IF your receiver has dual sub outs, you can run 2 into the mDSP but you may want to set their delays and level the same and control all of that in the mDSP instead.
so where is the link to the tool in this video?
hi . i have sony muteki 5.2.1( 1950w) is this work if i connect with my system? if yes please gives me some demo how to use and how to connect !
WOW, Great information! THANK YOU! I'm taking notes.
Whats the values u put in REW on: target settings and filter tasks ?
Do I need to get an additional interface to make this work? Like the Focusrite 2i2 2nd gen?
Have you tested DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033 Automatic Subwoofer Equalizer?
+Starmixologist No I haven't but it looks like another great option.
I have used the antimode for probably around 5 years. It makes a difference!
Nice work furthering this idea- thanks!
It would also drastically cut down on upgrade buying
what do you guys think of the onkyo AccuEQ? do yo recommend it?
Busting out the Kaizen, love it!!
You said that the 2 X 4 was $125 + $10 for the power. Well, I don't see that one at that price, its a smaller version not like the one pictured in your video. Please help me.
www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-balanced-2x4
Great video guys!
can i connect 1200watts subwoofer to creative t6300s home theater subwoofer amp
Wonderful solution, wonderful video! Big thanks! This is clearly the thing to do. Steven Wilson will sound EVEN BETTER ;-)
And I thought I was a bit crazy with my main system having five power sub woofer !
Sounds good, but I'm afraid to trust after that glowing recommendation on the HP-2's.
+Chuck Simonds Your the only person that has given us negative feedback on the HP-2s to date. That said, everyone has likes or dislikes so if you dislike improving the bass response in your system, don't look into this product.
Bass absorbtion should be done at the back wall not at the front wall.
The bass should pass the listener and don't bounce back.
Now that you have your bass dialed in with the miniDSP, why don't you substitute your processor for a MiniDSP NanoAVR HDA,for your small channels, dial that in up to your room's transition frequency and tell us how that works. I know you want balanced connections so I guess we could live with a miniDSP 10x10 Hd review instead but the masses would prefer the nanoAVR HDA
What’s the name of those speakers?
Great info displayed for Humans, Thanx
5 subs might be enough sub-sonic blast to break down Hugos brick wall of tartar
How to use mini DSP hd for 3.1
Putting a 128lb subwoofer in the listening position ain't easy, in fact it plain don't fit!
i wish theaters would fix their base, or have it hooked to a DB regulator so it doesn't blow out everybody in the room lol
A lot of information in this video. The miniDSP 2x4 has been out for years and anyone in the AVS Forum who frequents the REW thread knows it's a great product. For those concerned about space for bass traps, nothing wrong with making a DIY bass trap soffit in your theater. Bass traps and waterfall plots are NOT snake oil. What you show would only help frequencies going to the subs (as I'm sure you are aware). No reason bass traps wouldn't help frequencies above 80 Hz. Clearly, if someone uses this method they will not get any help outside of what's passed to the subs, and no Audyssey XT32 is not going to fix all the other ringing, although it is an excellent product, plus they have to buy 5 subs. While it is true bass traps absorb energy, what about the nulls and dips that are fixed by bass traps? Seems there are plenty of frequencies were bass traps could potentially give more effective energy back to the room if they fix these dips, which they really can do. Not sure why this is not mentioned, but it is scientific fact. Just saying it's kind of a bold statement to call bass traps snake oil when they make a measurable difference and can go great with a multiple sub setup. I have multiple JL F212 subs and lots of bass traps, and can personally say for a fact bass traps helped greatly with ringing in my room (even with the 4 JL 12" drivers) even more so than what having an additional sub did. No waterfall curve manipulation at all either, just using the default REW waterfall plot settings, but I always rescale so at least 40dB of the curve is shown. I like others take before and after measurements in REW. Most REW users use the default REW waterfall settings. In the video you seem to take issue with waterfall plots and seem to imply the default setting in REW should not be used? I would think the software developer would know best as there is a lot of math and DSP theory involved in building software like this. I don't doubt if money were no object, and I added 3 more subs (would never run stereo subs like you are doing though), I could get even better results, but the fact is it's much cheaper to buy Owens Corning 703 4" insulation in bulk and make some DIY bass traps, plus these type of bass traps do more than just trap bass, they can and do affect mid frequencies and can even double to absorb higher frequencies. It isn't discussed in the video, but another thing to think about is having stacked subs/drivers. This made a big difference for me as stack drivers really coupled well to my room. Stacking drivers also means it is much easier to then use Audyssey Sub EQ HT and get great results (as it will ping the stacked pairs separately, set phase and level, then perform EQ on the pair together).
+ETC 6849 First nobody called bass traps snake oil. I'm sorry that you misinterpret what we've said. Bass Traps do work and they can be a viable option for sound reproduction in small room room acoustics and are absolutely essential for sound production in recording studios. While you can measure a few points in space and show how bass traps fill in nulls in the room, the overall sound level in the room drops. Absorption ABSORBS. If you don't believe this, measure a speaker at 1 meter in an anechoic chamber and then measure it again in a real room. You will note, depending on location in the room and frequency in question, the in-room measurement will be anywhere between 6-18dB louder b/c of boundary gain and room gain. I suggest getting a copy of Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms by Dr. Floyd Toole as he goes into detail about this. There are NO free lunches, absorption turns energy into heat which means you lose some output.
The default settings for REW don't show enough time domain resolution which is what we were getting at in the video. You need to change the window time to around 40ms if you want the waterfall to actually show a more accurate representation of decay rates in your room. Otherwise, you're masking the decay rate and seeing an almost infinite straight line of ringing for the entire span of the graph. WE actually have a video coming online next week that discusses this.
Also regarding EQ, we aren't talking about Audyssey, we are talking about something far more effective called Sound Field Management (SFM) which is a Harman tech that crunches away measured data for each sub to properly set delay, phase, level and EQ to minimized seat-seat variations BEFORE applying a global EQ to all subs. Audyssey is NOT that sophisticated. What I did with mDSP is close but still note to the level of SFM.
As for stereo bass, you missed the point. My main speakers are designed
to play as a single unit, hence why I configured their bass drivers for
stereo bass. I wasn't concerned about stereo bass below 80Hz but
between 80Hz to 300Hz. I also used the EQ of mDSP to help improve that
region b/c EQ is still effective up to the room transition frequency
(300-400Hz). For those that don't know what a room transition frequency
is, it's the region where the room stops being the major influence of
sound and the speaker takes over. This is part of the reason why above
the transition frequency, Auto-EQ correction becomes ineffective and
unpredictable.
If you found a combination of multi-sub + EQ + bass traps that work,
then more power to you! Multi-sub properly setup will cut down on the
amount of LF bass trapping that you will need, but bass traps are still a
viable option in your bag of tricks for improving bass response. I've
heard several JBL Synthesis demos using multi-sub and SFM that had
absolutely NO LF bass trapping and the bass was tight, even and
spectacular for EVERY seat. The science works!
@@Audioholics "Absorbers absorb". Bass traps and broadband absorbers don't atenuate or absorb sound below the level of what is beind produced. They prevent the reflection for taking place, but it will take a lot of them significantly improve and flaten bass.
ETC 6849 w the driver of mee
Eeeerewwury
H
Gene, I just thought over your use case...
... and I think a Behringer DCX2496 or similar loudspeaker management system does the same job, maybe a bit more precise/ professional.
It's a professional rack mount unit, which has 3 balanced inputs, 6 balancend outputs, 96kHz 24 Bit DSP Processing and very precise controls (!) of gain, delay, phase and lots of PEQs / filter.
www.music-group.com/Categories/Behringer/Signal-Processors/Loudspeaker-Management-Processors/DCX2496/p/P0B6H
It's approx. 2.5-3 times the price of a miniDSP (still not expensive!) and maybe you'll give it a try, in order to separately control all of your 5 (?!) Subs?
Regards, Sven
+Sven I used to have a Behringer DCX2496 but never was able to resolve ground loop issues it caused in my system so i eventually gave up on it. I prefer the software interface and ease of use of the mDSP personally.
+Gene - I unterstand. Unfortunately ground loop issues often occure with multiple active subs and longer cable runs... I had do fight/ solve some, too ;-).
As you maybe don't know, there's also a very good graphical user interface (PC-based) for the DCX, working via serial/ RS232 cable. But this is really more "old school" looking and maybe not as user friendly as the modern mDSP GUI.
Thats what i call finesse tuning
FUN!
Ok this video was made in 2016 . Is this really necessary in today's modern avrs?
"Is it necessary that I drink my own urine? No, but it's sterile and I like the taste." :)
@@Audioholics really!....sorry I asked. It was a legitimate question. I've had home theater audio for years but only recently have I begun to actually get serious and educate myself. I've always had the attitude that their is no such thing as a stupid question as it's really the only way to learn but,in this situation maybe I'm wrong. I will investigate this elsewhere. I apologize for posting my question here. Have a good night.
@@number1pappy LOL sorry, it's a quote from the movie Dodgeball that I can't resist saying when someone says "Is it Necessary?" Yes most AV receivers have very primitive tools for doing low frequency correction. Most auto-EQ systems are ineffective and most AV receivers only have 1 sub out. mDSP gives you enhanced bass management and EQ to better integrate subwoofers to your system.
Great information. Thanks very much. I'm inspired.
Could do without the Hugo.
Also, please don't call your attention to detail and your passion and quest for better audio 'OCD'. It's not, and it is very insulting to those who actually suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder.
I do have OCD though.
Haha audioquest 😂