Don't Run Your Threshold/Tempo Workouts Too Hard! Breaking down Lactate Levels in 80/20 Training
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- Опубліковано 21 лис 2022
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#runningcoach #runningtips Tempo Training with the 80/20 #marathontraining #running aerobic model of base and then threshold and uptempo and anaerobic influences. Sample workouts for marathon runners, half marathon, 5k and ultramarathon and even trail runners from running coach Sage Canaday of higher running. Focus on running form and technique even during long runs and track speed sessions with a higher stride rate or cadence. Vo2max interval training used sparingly in this program ! - Спорт
This was brilliant. Makes so much sense in a minefield of ‘experts’
Yes, but you fail to take into account that doing tempos too fast makes you look more impressive on Strava.
When you report them as easy/moderate.
And back from an injury 😂!
Why I don’t post training runs at all Strava. You got to eliminate ego. The only thing that matters is your race performances.
Who cares about Strava
@@DonGivanii do, im new to running and I find it a great way to monitor my progress related to heart rate etc
Tempo below near, but below, lactate threshold is great, I've been doing it for a while. Studies show you get almost the same benefit at running just above LT, and much less of the damage. So you can recover faster or do much longer intervals, so you get a much greater aerobic benefit as well. If you did nothing but easy runs, a long run, a sub LT tempo run, and strides; almost 100% you will see improvement faster than whatever you were doing previously. Throw in form drills, strength work, plyometrics and you will be shocked at your improvement
I needed this! Tend to run my “thresholds” closer to 5K pace😂🤷🏼♂️
Awesome video as always! Love how you can articulate this all so well!
Thanks for keeping it real for us coach! It felt like you were talking to me and my abilities where many times these talks by others are targeting much more advanced runners. Good video! ❤
Hi Sage, Thank you so much for this video. It is hugely helpful and gives me a lot more confidence about my training.
Thank you for important information ℹ️
Nice work sage. Super concise. Much appreciated. Hope the comeback is going strong.
Thanks Sage good video, definitely a fine line between training to hard or not hard enough, I’m learning more on feel, & & don’t be scared to have a day off if the body & legs are over tiered 👍🏼😋🙏🏃🏽♂️✅🥳🍀
Sage's videos are so cool
AWESOME ADVICE!
Great talk thanks 🙏
This has a lot of great information to fill in my knowledge blanks about those lactic blood pricks and why and what running at high intensity does to my running!
Hey coach sage, Last week I ran my temporun to fast, because sometimes it’s fun 😂. But next week I’ll take your advise again with comfortable/hard. Thx for the vids.
No one has a 100% dialed in diet. I'm not an elite runner, I'm not even a runner, I'm a LONG DISTANCE hiker and I'm trying to make this work for me and it's not easy when everyone is talking about "race pace" when I dont race. I'm just trying to hike a little faster and a lot farther with no running at all. My record is 32 miles in one day with 22 pounds on my back with an average of 21 miles a day. Some days have some real big mountains to get over that burn 8000 kcal in a 15 hr day but most days are 4000 kcal
I’m 55 and training for CIM and running 50-60 miles per week. I tried a few double threshold days throughout my build and I found them to be easier on the body than one longer threshold workout. For example I did 5 miles in the morning at tempo/race pace effort. Then in the evening 7 miles on the TM with shorter and faster threshold intervals. I enjoyed them and found them beneficial to get that work done in one day leaving more days for easy running.
Glad to hear you've found success in that approach. I would question how this will translate to your race though. Generally one long threshold/tempo is much more conducive to development over two shorter ones.
@@nberkel Thanks I also did several more traditional single 10 mile threshold sessions. All I know so far is I made it through this build feeling more durable and injury free than ever before but obviously no way of knowing the impact of the double days!
That's excellent to hear, and what definitely matters most! Show em what you got in a week and a half!
A lot of people don't have time to do double runs (let alone double workout sessions) in a single day. It does depend a bit on your weekly mileage totals (we usually start "double runs" to hit mileage goals around 65-70 miles per week or about 110km/week) as well as your talent/speed (i.e. it's faster and more time efficient the faster one is running and the recovery is generally better for elites as they are spending less time on feet). Otherwise, it's generally better to get in one "longer" stimulus....although a lot of our Tempo/LT/Threshold sessions at Higher Running are broken down into things like 2 x 5km or 3-4 x 2-mile repeats (with a shorter 5-min rest between each harder effort). The details really matter with the exact/speed/intensity and rest recovery periods as well as how any given Threshold/Tempo workout fits into the overall training program of workouts (with some Quality Long Runs and consistent high mileage usually allowing the runner to get the most in their Marathon and Ultramarathon race performance gains).
@@Vo2maxProductions thanks Sage, always appreciate your knowledge and coaching expertise!
Great, completely agree
great conversation sage, i really enjoy when you go at length into a topic like this and also mix in the science too. very helpful. I' would be curious for your comments on uphill and downhill threshold training. I've been messing with a loop where I will hit a up-tempo pace on an uphill section for about a mile and a half- HR is in the 150s which for me with a max of 206 is like a zone2-zone3 effort. breath is still steady but I can feel my legs slowly building with lactate. then I will hit a 2 mile down hill where I pound the quads but my HR falls and I am recovering with speed (do 3-4 loops for about an hour and a half- 3,000 of elevation and 9-10 miles). I am using this workout as a lydriard tune up style before a few ultras coming up.
Right! go by feel @9:02 in threshold or tempo/uptempo runs for a personally perceived comfortably hard and
Very well put Sage 👍as they say one size doesn't fit everyone. Training is all about progression at your level for best results and Just because the elite can do very high training quality training doesn't mean everyone as to copy the elite athletes.
Haven’t watched in a little
Bit but all I know is this camera is looking niceeee
I am guilty of running tempos too fast. M23 used to run my tempos at 175HR. Next day I would feel burnt and my easy pace increased by 30s. These days I run them at 165HR and feel fresh afterwards. Thanks Sage!
What, my easy pace is 165 hr, but it’s not like I’m running too fast, my hr is just always high, my tempo would be like 180-190, and race pace is like 190+
@@king-qi2ks How old are you? That's far too high. Can you easily hold a conversation without gasping for breath at your easy pace?
@@theunknown21329 I’m 18
And yes I can talk while I’m running
There is meant to be 2 types of threshold running , areobic threshold and lactate threshold. AT workouts are great sessions to build your LT sessions on top of. Key is not to run them to fast
Lionel Sanders, the triathlete, is under new coaching and has videos where they do ear lobe blood pricks during their training! I was wondering about this!
Hey Coach Sage. I have a question about structuring training for the 3km and 5km distances.
For my base training phase, what type of workouts should be incorporated? Are VO2 max workouts okay?
At the moment I have a VO2 max workout every Tuesday, a threshold every Friday, and a long run every Sunday.
Examples would be: Tues- 6x1k @CV, 200m jog rest followed by 6x200m @1600m, 200m jog rest | Fri- 25 min. hilly threshold
Tues- 8x800m @5km feel, 2 min rest followed by 6x200 @1600m, 200m jog rest | Fri- 4x2km threshold, 400m jog rest followed by 8x20 sec. hills
Tues- 12x400m @3200m feel, 1 min rest followed by 8x200m @1600m, 200m jog rest | Fri- 30 min hilly threshold followed by 5x300m @1600m, 100m jog rest, and 8x20 sec. hills
I'm a bit unsure as to whether the workouts I have placed on Tuesday are okay or if I should just replace them with another threshold. Looking to break 9 min for 3200m if that helps. Thanks!
4:15 Of course. There is no doping.
Hi Sage. Great video thanks for sharing. Have you considered any barefoot running as part of your training plan? I am starting to incorporate to promote better form. Would you consider this a good idea and would a mix be something you would recommend? I've always run with cushioned shoes in ultras and general road/off road events.
I see it all the time at our club tracksessions: athletes that go "too fast" at the first reps and lose form and pace at the last reps and even still feel it and are limited by it the next session 2 days later.
They also have very slow progression in racepace and keep a "bad" form and are unable to get a faster topspeed.
Might be better to split different paces up even more sometimes people push themself to hard
Sage, for your athletes, do you program their workouts based on pace then? Or more effort or even HR?
How much faster per km than your half marathon pace is considered your lactate threshold? 5 seconds 10 seconds per km? Thanks Sage for all the great content!
How do hills play into this? Even on my easy runs going up a hill I automatically slow run, but even then with the same amount of relative effort I'll obviously start to breathe harder. Curious how you would train tempo/threshold into hills.
I am in a confusing situation...
My Lactate threshold heart rate was measured at 92% of my maximum heart rate.
Does this mean I should run my lactate threshold sessions close to that? Or follow what is suggested here and stay at 85%?
Lions start out at a speed they can manetain for 1 tempo run every blue moon. When the wheels fall off after 15 minutes, they slow down by 30 seconds per mile.
Great video! I've been trying to develop my own training plan for a few years now as a beginner/intermediate ultrarunner and recently have adopted the 80/20 training plan. Does the 20 in the 80/20 training plan constitute your goal threshold pace, ie for marathon runners maybe 10km/HM pace (aerobic threshold) vs someone gearing towards racing 5km/10km races doing more anaerobic threshold work? Basically, as ultrarunners should we even attempt to implement sprint work/anaerobic threshold training?
First off, I'd define your terms and relative paces/intensities: "Aerobic Threshold" is quite different than "Anaerobic Threshold". The points were these zones actually occur (for Aerobic Threshold) is generally closer to Marathon Pace rather than 10km/HM pace. It depends on the speed of the runner a bit (i.e there is a difference if you are a 4 hour marathoner vs a sub 3 hour marathoner etc). But yes, generally the 20% of "quality running" each week is including more Anaerobic Threshold (or Lactate Threshold) which is getting up over 85%-88% max HR and is usually closer to 10km-Half Marathon pace/intensity. Any 5km or 10km paced efforts would be more of a "Vo2max" stimulus and ultra runners usually get the most benefit from doing short Hill Reps in this higher intensity range (which would sometimes have some anaerobic component). Most videos that talk about "80/20" training are over-simplified IMO. Some weeks you should be "90/10" etc.
As slow runner who just completed My first half marathon at age 51 ,i'm a bit confused My current 10 is more or less 1 hour ..i want to get quicker ..so My tempos runs have to be quicker than My 10 k pace right ?
Once I participated in 1hour track race and covered 13701m in hour.. ..equal of 4:23/km, is that my threshold pace on the flat without carbon plates? or should I go slightly slower?
That may have been your LT2 threshold pace on that particular day, on that particular surface, in those particular shoes. Rather than focusing on pace, focus on what that felt like.
Where can someone get these "performance enhancing drugs" from? Asking for a friend
When thinking 80(ish)/20(ish), off days are part of the 80. So, if you are running only 3-4 days/week, it might be OK if 1-2 of them are HI
Ahh, so if I just run high intensity once per week, for 33.6 hours, I'm still following the 80/20 rule? (24 hrs × 7 = 168 hrs /wk. 0.2 × 168 = 33.6 hrs/wk) Hmm, something tells me that isn't quite right! Oh yeah, you said you run 4 days per week, and a couple of them are 'hard' days. So subtract 4 hours for the two easy days 29.4 total for high intensity. So then roughly 15 hours per workout? Oh yeah, that should work out!
So, obviously, the 80/20 rule only applies to time on feet, faster than walking.
@@ralphhancock7449 Hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. If you listen to Seiler, he thinks of ratios in terms of workouts not time. However, don't hyperbolize that either (this ain't about scoring debate points, but if that makes you feel better about yourself, I'll concede). Aerobic base training should still be the bulk of your training. However, if you're working out 5x/week, it may be OK for 2 of them to be high intensity, at least for a short period of time.
@@adamfeerst2575 Just fooling with ya. But the point of it all is to do the bulk of training relatively easy, with just minor time/miles at high intensity stuff that might require at least a week to recover from. The whole effort to calculate 80/20 can be tedious nitpicking. I figure that lots of surges and strides sprinkled in on multi-mile EZ runs will do the trick for reminding my IIx Fast Oxidative Fibers to stay put, and not revert back to their default IIa fiber type. Then, once a week or 10 days or so, do some aerobic tempo workout and hill work to help develope those IIx fibers. I really don't know if this armchair training theory is right! As an old guy, I keep hearing that recovery time takes longer, so it isn't easy to squeeze in all the workouts I'd like to, and still get away with it. With only 4 days to work with, trying to abide with the 80/20 rule is tricky.
IT'S About the miles not the days.
For example
8 mile run monday steady
5 mile run tuesday easy
2 mile warm up 4*a mile VO2m 2 mile Cool down
Rest day
5 mile easy
3 mile easy 3 mile tempo/threshold 3 miles easy
Rest
35 miles of it 7 miles more effort thats 80/20
Sage, have you ever seen a bear or such while running in the mountains? I'm wondering what I should do if there's like mountain lion or something 😂
Yes, I've run into both bear and mountain lions on trail runs before. The protocol is a bit different between the two animals (and even between Black Bears and Brown Bears). It would also depend if there are babies nearby, if the animals are male/female and how ( and where) you encounter them and at what time of day. Generally you want to "act human" and not run away. With mountain lions you want to look big and tall. With black bears you generally want to make noise. All the times I've seen a Bear and Mountain lions up on a run they ran away from me....honestly I'm much more afraid of Moose, Rattlesnakes, and a certain creature called a "Human."
@@Vo2maxProductions Of course you really only have to run a bit faster than your friend.
Sounds a good time for a super-threshold effort.
I use a HR monitor & I shoot for 80-85%
So it's been a minute since I've run but I remember I was running like 70miles each month then I injured my meniscus 😂
Best coaching is must for athletics ?
You must be from India
Oh can you call coffee "drugs"? Drank these twice a day but lately just 1s a day cause of sugar levels. Thats the "drug" for common runners like me though, boosts about 20-25% speed.
I cant afford buying lactate testing. 🤣🤣🤣
they nearly all on performance drugs
2:30 -- What? 85% of my MAX? Most of us can't run across the road twice at this level... No one but a PRO can run at these high numbers you are referring to ... And the PROs know not to do this .. lol .. Clown act here...