Free advice for Boeing: 1) Use lithium titanate batteries instead of lithium ion 2) Add possibility do drop cargo container in flight BTW, after this comment they can't patent any of these
@@machintrucGaming Agents like HFC-145, FE-36, and others are available as the more potent ozone depleting HFC/HCFC/CFC Halon gases (halon is not a single gas, it's a bunch of compounds that are typically brominated chlorofluorocarbons or hydrogenated chlorofluorocarons. (I have an EPA 608 universal license for refrigerant gases).
@@Henning_Rech I'm pretty sure he meant 2.7 Wh for checked-in luggage. IE what's goes into cargo hold. You shouldn't pack phone laptop tablet into your suitcase when going on a plane.
The issue of carry-on bags being taken at the gate to be checked due to lack of overhead space is deeply concerning. Gate agents never seem to ask if these bags contain lithium batteries, even though most passengers store battery-powered devices in their carry-ons. In the rush and frustration of being forced to part with their bags, passengers likely don’t think to remove these devices. This oversight poses a serious safety risk that must be addressed before it leads to disaster.
This!!! That's why I never bring carry on. I always have battery banks with me so I don't want to risk one of them not being in my presence. (Yes I even take them with me when I go to the rest room)
They do ask quite a bit of the time but as a tech person I specifically pack my carry on and check in differently. I get the overhead space is an issue for them but its frustrating for passengers especially for airlines that charge additional for carry on space.
For anyone wondering why we're running out of Halon (fire suppressing gas), it's because its production was banned, as it causes ozone layer depletion, and there are safe alternatives available which are just as effective.
There’s Haltron, FM-200 & other an alternatives gas that does the similar for fire suppression. I ran a few data centers that started with halon but newer builds are using FM-200. I believe that Haltron II is near direct replacement for halon.
The UPS crash was one of the saddest crashes. I think I have heard about! The fact that the poor pilot was all on his own and had little or no chance for anyone to help him must’ve been horrifying for him.
@@fjp3305 The captain of that flight got incapacitated, and the FO had to fly alone for some 25 minutes - with zero visibility in the cabin, relying on another airborne aircraft, the pilots of which relayed the ATC instructions to him (due to radio frequency issues) and his responses back, and totally overwhelmed by the workload and horrors of the whole situation.
I had a long layover in Amsterdam and had a night flight out. I was charging my phone in my shirt pocket w/ a battery bank. Getting to the plane seat, I noticed how hot the battery was and how it was slightly bulged. I talked to a flight attendant who was happy to leave the battery with someone on the ground. In the air I unexpectedly got a goodie bag with some wine. Hopefully future tech can avoid these thermal runaway issues.
One of the most important rules about lithium batteries is that they should not be used in confined spaces without adequate circulation (e.g. bags, pockets, pouches, under pillows, etc.). Using them in such confined spaces can cause them to rapidly heat up and possibly experience a thermal runaway event.
@@franzalex it's like the big front chest pocket of a shirt with the battery facing toward a single layer of fabric toward the airport air. maybe the phone against my chest had kept me from feeling the battery warmth.
It’s not always obvious when a battery is bad. But there can be subtle signs. My 2013 MacBook Pro laptop always used to get warm when charging. After about 5 years, the trackpad stopped being able to click. At 10 years the battery life was
@@aaalllenwe don't often think about it but our bodies are space heaters. You effectively were charging a fast-charging device while the half the battery pack was pressed against a 98f / 36f warming plate. That makes a significant difference when these battery packs rely on passive cooling.
I do wish you went into WHY halon is "running out" and that active development to find an alternative has been going for quite a while. (And for those wondering, halon is a chlorofluorocarbon compound, the same class of compounds that was found to cause ozone depletion. Production of CFCs was outlawed under the montreal protocol, and the halon currently used in aircraft fire suppression systems is from stockpiles produced before the Montreal protocol came into effect)
@@PavelKostromitinov basically they don’t want the Ozone in the upper atmosphere to be gone completely, otherwise skin cancer (and associated diseases) would become a far more regular occurrence, on top of other health risks.
We used to have Halon at my workplace, but we´ve now replaced it with a new system that´s even safe to breath in (even if it´s not really pleasant). It´s called Novec 1230. I have no clue how it would do in replacing Halon in aviation, and I don´t know about suppressing Li-ion fires. It seems those are relying solely on cooling, since the batteries produce their own oxygen.
This may be considered a small point by some, but in chemistry terms it is a major difference: The reason halon is an effective fire suppressant at a concentration of only 3% is because it does not need to displace oxygen to extinguish a fire. It works the same way as the old "fire grenades", which were just glass globes filled with carbon tetrachloride. Fire extinguishers used on board aircraft in the 1930s and 1940s also used the same compound - these were often just brass cylinders filled with the liquid, which would be sprayed at the fire using a manually operated piston pump. Extremely reliable and effective. Halon systems also use halogenated organic compounds (technically carbon tetrachloride is a halon variety), though modern halon systems use varieties with lower boiling points and are therefore much easier to vaporise into the gas phase. Most fire extinguishing methods function by either displacing oxygen or by rapidly absorbing heat - carbon dioxide or other inert gas systems do the former, water-based systems do the latter. But there is a third way: Flames are a free radical chain reaction, and if you can supply enough chain terminating radicals to stop the reaction, the flames will be suppressed or even extinguished entirely. This is how halon systems work: The heat of the fire partially breaks down the halogenated compound, rapidly generating lots of chlorine radicals, which terminate the chain reaction within the flames. Enough oxygen for combustion can still be present - replacing only 3% of the air doesn't reduce the oxygen concentration enough to suppress fire by oxygen starvation. But shutting down the flames with chlorine radicals can safely and effectively suppress fire even when there is still plenty of oxygen present.
Great information. So it looks like Halon would be effective at fighting larger lithium fires in EVs and alike. Aside from the ozone deleting nature of the chemical and not wanting to use limited quantities on fires on land. Most fire fighting methods in use remove heat or oxygen like you say. However lithium battery fires are self oxidating which means they are hard to extinguish. As said in the video it is about suppression and containment rather than extinguishment. These cells are great expect when on fire.
Last year I had just boarded a flight and realized that the USB connector for the battery in my ‘smart’ carryon had been broken. The plastic piece inside an older style USB connector that forces you to insert the cable in a particular orientation also supports the metal tabs that connect the battery to the inserted cable. I tried to plug a cable into the battery and found the plastic piece was missing. Before boarding the flight I had dropped the battery; the plastic piece was still inside the end of the cable. This meant the leads on the battery side (including the power leads() were loose to move around and hit each other and arc. I called for the flight attendant, explained what had happened and that I work on that stuff for a living and that it would be a good idea to get the battery off of the plane before the flight departed. He was initially confused but eventually took the battery. A while later he came back and said that captain thanked me for being proactive on getting the battery off the plane. I guess the flight attendant had taken it to the captain first and the captain agreed with me.
As a Check In agent I can say that I always ask every passenger if they have any batteries oder dangerous good in their checked baggage but if I think about the self drop off counters which are becoming more standard at this time then I dont want to know how many batteries go unnoticed. In ten passengers a minimum of two need to get something out of their bag when I ask them. Thank you for the great video!
Have you raised this directly with the relevant air safety authorities? IMHO this warrants a study. Stop a number of people who've done self checkin, ask them if they have anything with batteries in (same phraseology you use on the checkin desk), find out what proportion have lithium batteries in their bags who didn't know they weren't supposed to, that's the important bit, we're talking about the kind of passenger you're catching, not the ones who will blatantly lie, then we can run calculations on risk to individual aircraft. If the EASA/CAA/FAA etc were to do this at least we can start putting numbers against your observation and then reccomendations can be made. @MentorNow is this something where you can help?
:) gate agent made me check 2 computers and a portable monitor at the gate because company policy did not allow extra bag on board. I offered to just pay to bring extra bag onboard but they refused. I told them there’s electronics with large batteries inside and they said “just make sure they are off it’s fine.” The flight was only half full. I mean nothing happened but…I feel maybe not everyone is on the same page about batteries.
As a sailor (who had a fire on board once), I’d note that boats are another place where - despite being *surrounded* by water - fire is one of the scariest emergencies. You can’t get to safety easily or quickly, and the fire, if uncontrolled, will quickly remove all your survival options.
I actually flew into my holidays a few days ago and left behind a powerbank because it looked already quite deformed. I mentioned this in some talks to my friends and many of them were not aware of this hazard at all. Thank you for this great video, now I have something grounded to share with them.
Yup did the same with my work laptop after it started to swell up thanks to a "spicy pillow" inside. Fortunately, sourced a new battery quite quickly, but I'd bet a good percentage of those 2000 batteries will be in pretty grim condition...
I'm glad you let us know about this. Last month I was offered to put my rucksack with my laptop and wireless headphones into the cargo hold but declined since I didn't want them getting damaged by ramp agents. Now I know I need to always carry them on board with me!
I am a technician and have had a phone battery catch fire as I was trying to replace it. Truly terrifying experience. I am always super parinoid when packing.
I had my phones battery bulge and push the backplate off (for reference I own a flip and had recently replaced the bottom backplate myself, i just used double sided tape to seal it off since its for my own use) which in turn pushed off my mask, while in a lecture I noticed how my mask wasnt fitting, realised it was a battery and later took it out. I went to a repair shop since I figured they probably had a way to dispose of it, you cant just throw a li-on battery in regular trash. I handed it over and as I was leaving I saw her just throw it in a regular trash can...
I carried 10 drone batteries in a special fire resistant carry on bag on a flight to Las Vegas in 2020. Each battery met requirements but were also inside individual fire proof bags (small) and i had installed by a fire specialist a small halon extinguisher with a pull cable ring mounted on the outside of the bag opening under a velcro tab. I showed the bag and it's contents to a supervisor with the airline a day before the flight and he approved my bag and it's contents for my flight the next day and while boarding the gate personnel pulled me aside to confirm all the details of my bag and re-approved my carryon as ok. They also thanked me for making certain my batteries would pose no threat to the flight. I had done all my homework well in advance and it made everyone on the flight safew as well as myself and twin sons going to Vegas for thier 21st birthday Do your research, get prior approval and make your trip safe and uneventful. I was able to get some great video of the nevada desert and vegas skyline on our trip. well worth the work!!!
As someone who has had a Li-ion fire burn out the inside of a vehicle (damaged battery was placed there after a flood and one week later thermally ran away), they are not pleasant to deal with. I have also flown internationally with large li-ion battery packs for cordless tools. We have to realize the danger so that we can self regulate. I knew the danger and followed the rules, but when I asked about it at check in the check in agents had no idea what the regulations were. They were always on my person and looked after regularly during the flight. If you know the reason for the rules and the danger associated with not following them, people might think differently about following them.
I used to travel quite a bit in the mid 2000s and usually carried amateur radio equipment with Li batteries. I always stored the batteries in a fire resistant bag, designed for charging them whenever I traveled with them. I remember checking in at an airport one time and when asked about batteries, I showed them how I was transporting them. Their comment was to thank me for taking the care to keep them as safe as possible, the fire resistant bag is still used to this day. I have never had a lithium battery fire - and I don't want one!
I've actually considered buying a fire resistant pouch for my electronics on aircraft. Maybe if we werent getting hammered over luggage fees I'd consider it more seriously.
I have quite a few for uav batteries and power bricks. I think they are kevlar or fiberglass and I tested one with great results. Very cheap on Bezos store. I had a phone battery smoke and burn inside my home and it wasn't fun. I keep the uav ones inside the bags and a steel ammo can now.
LiPo charging pouches for RC vehicle batteries are fire resistant bags that should be used any time you're charging a LiPo. Lithium Polymer batteries are far more volitile than the Lithium-Ion batteries in your phone, laptop, etc. These charging pouches aren't too expensive, and aren't heavy. Last time I was on a flight to Chicago this December it crossed my mine, but I was already on the plane when it did. :P Definitely a good idea though, as it would do a lot to slow the spread of a battery fire.
@@absolarixCorrection: phone batteries are lithium polymer too. So are (most) laptop batteries. The reason RC batteries are more dangerous is due to the battery being more exposed to physical damage in minor crashes. In the case of drones, the batteries often lack some key self protections, to sacrifice the battery in order to save the drone.
I work as a ticket/ gate agent for delta and never really understood why we ask about batteries in their checked luggage. Now I know to take it very seriously, thanks for this video!
The rules are confusing, and i think you even got them wrong. Phones and other personal electronic devices often have over 2.7 Wh in capacity and were not mentioned in the video, nor was the requirement to actually remove said removable batteries from said devices. But anyway this video made me review what batteries I'm traveling with, and made me realize I've been breaking the rules by not removing the battery from my camera when traveling, so I'll do that in future
Yes it's such a shame that the entire video is about batteries and their different sizes and he got something like that completely wrong. Even the first iPhone had a battery with significantly more Wh than 2.7 Wh 😂😂
Halon is only running out because of it being banned from being produced. It is a simple synthesis to make it, just the Montreal Protocol law makes it illegal to produce more of it.
It's important to note that the production of Halon has been banned for a good reason - it causes ozone layer depletion. There are safe alternatives available which are just as effective, which is why Halon is being phased out.
The iPhone 16 pro max battery has a capacity of 18.17 wH, and I'd assume ipads have larger capacity. This is much larger than the 2.7 wH you describe as the limit for carrying aboard. So where's the disconnect?
I think this 2.7 wh limit maybe applies to only checked luggage - contrary to what Petter says 16:00 That makes more sense. We well know airlines have rules around portable electronic devices, and they aren’t just, “leave them at home”.
It's badly explained in the video, here's a summary from the dangerous goods regulation overview table, highly suggest reading it: 2.7 Wh max for "baggage with non removable batteries" 100 Wh max for loose batteries or things with batteries meant as a power source (power banks). 100 Wh max for PEDs (personal electronic devices) with lithium batteries. 160 Wh for the above instead of the 100 Wh limit is allowed when the operator specifically allows it. The 2.7 Wh limit appears to refer to baggage as in suitcases or similar with non-removable batteries, the reason these are not allowed is because these articles are too big to put in a fire resistant bag, whereas loose batteries and PEDs can.
i am a drone pilot who flies older multirotors from around the same age as the listed accident. The type of li-po batteries used for them are extremely spicy, especially when charging. They have no regulation or protection circuits whatsoever so if they short out they are going to almost certainly cook off. I don’t fly with the big ones for that reason, and they get stored and charged in a fire resistant bag. I’ve known people charge their packs inside cinder blocks with a bag of sand suspended over them, so if one catches fire it will melt the bag and dump sand over it, But I can’t comment on how effective that would be, hopefully won’t need to find out. People on the drone community have lost their homes, and even lives by being careless with the batteries. They are never to be charged unattended, and never to be underestimated. The one time I have flown with drones I brought only my 30 gram tinywhoop with small number of gum stick sized batteries, in a fire resistant bag, in hand luggage, and that one’s a one-off i probably wouldn’t do again
@@lithrae1These "toys" are currently redefining war. I wouldn't look down on something that can follow you into trenches and even into pillboxes. After all, their appearance above or right behind people might be the last thing in life to underestimate.
@@jantjarks7946 why not address this comment to the guy actually dissing drone pilots? I wasn't. I also wasn't talking about military drones but rather the fun ones like the tinywhoop, whose owner prev dissed.
@@lithrae1 It's not about military by itself, but just as an example regarding their abilities / capabilities. That's why I addressed the "toy" part of your comment, most people completely underestimate them. War is obviously something far more serious than toys ever would be. Besides Enders Game maybe. 😉 And yeah, I gave him a suggestion with who he should talk to actually understand what drones and their pilots are capable of.
Good to point out the dangers of Lithium batteries. But the fire and thermal runaway risk does depend on the battery Chemistry. For example Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries (LiFePO4) batteries do not suffer from thermal runaway and have non-combustible electrolytes. Although it tends not to be used in small portable devices. But may be used in wheelchairs. It seems a shame to tar all chemistries with the same brush.
The problem with the Li batteries is they make their own oxygen when on fire so depriving them of oxygen is not always effective. And they can re-ignite. Not sure what the answer is to be honest.
The only real answer seems to be to immerse in a very large quantity of water, the water cannot stop the runaway reaction but takes away the heat until it is exhausted. Unfortunately most existing sprinkler systems in buildings etc. are inadequate for this task.
I would suspect the risks are even bigger during holiday travel, as people pack presents. This proud Patreon member avoids holiday plane travel like the plague! (Not because of safety just because it is miserable)
Very well done, Captain! I have really learned so much from your channel! I'm 63 and always wanted to get a GA license, and when I was around 25, I actually was somewhat interested in getting a commercial rating. The only problem was that I had no idea what I needed to do or even who I needed to talk to to get the training to see those dreams come to fruition. Now that I have learned that, my health won't allow me to pass my medical review, so now I am relegated to being an MS Flight Sim rated captain (OK, if I'm gunna dream I might as well dream BIG! 😂) Thank you for delivering your message "dummied down" enough for me to be able to understand! I very much enjoy, and look forward to each upcoming episode! Merry Christmas from the Danimal household to the Mentour Pilot family home!
I travel loads as crew and occasionally as a passenger. I've only ever had my power bank inspected once. That was about a month ago in, of all places Shenzhen, China. Not sure what the security people were checking. Oddly, the power bank factory where it began life, was just 30 minutes away.
It's LiPo batteries that are the most likely to ignite. Most BEV manufacturers have switched to the more stable LiFePo architecture. Battery jump boxes use LiFePo or other stable types, in conjunction with capacitors to output high amperage, to avoid thermal damage. However, until there's a replacement to the LiPo's higher energy density, we will continue to use this unstable battery in compact electronics. I had a toy helicopter with lithium battery packs and my cat decided to play with one. Thanks to the package around the battery, it didn't ignite. It did get very hot and burn my carpet. Never toss lithium batteries in the trash. For one obvious reason, they can start fires even when they're discharged. The other is they can pollute ground water if the landfill liner fails (or was never used).
LiPo has higher specific energy density, but Li Ion are no less prone to thermal runaway. In fact the more recent chemistries that don't use cobalt have a lower threshold temperature for thermal runaway.
I got a spot welder with a LiPo battery shipped by air from China. There were no markings on the package indicating that there was a battery inside. On arrival the voltage of the battery was 4.03V (which is high). I was quite surprised because of this tbh. It’s likely that thousands of these devices are shipped by air daily.
@@V8DV You are correct but I thought that 4.03V was unnecessary high. As of 1 - 1 - 2025 IATA recommends for batteries contained in equipment: - A state of charge not exceeding 30% of their rated capacity. I’m sure that would correspond with a voltage of around 3.6V or less. (But it’s not 2025 yet and it’s only a recommendation).
2.7 Wh limit for checked luggage is an approximate capacity of three CR2032 cells with a small overhead. These cells are commonly used in trackers (Apple Airtag, Galaxy Smart Tag), rarely occurring suitcase smartlocks and as a timekeeping cell in many appliances in the range from motherboards to outlet-powered "smart-whatever". So, this limitation (or, in this case, I would say, allowance) makes total sense.
And for goodness' sake, if you are shipping any kind of lithium battery, encapsulated or not, declare it with the shipper so they can properly transport it safely.
Hmm. I am not sure when it happened but I remember having almost a shouting match with someone at the airport when they demanded I put my laptop to the checked luggage "because there is no room in the cabin". They sadly won to my great dismay as I wanted to watch movies all flight. Thanks for giving me a great argument, especially one which benefits all people on an airplane.
As someone who ships parts for an airline and who previously moved commercial airfreight, THANK YOU. Every year I ask Santa for an IATA DG book that gets rid of the Section II packing instructions for ELI & ELM (I'm still waiting, though the batteries shipping by themselves are now fully regulated DG & require the candy-striped form.) My colleagues & I thought the use of the batteries on the 787 was the dumbest design choice because of the inherent fire risks... at least until MCAS. Your section about watt hours was not very clear & misleading though and could perhaps use an edit.
it depends on the battery chemistry, not all lithium chemistries are incendiary devices waiting for an excuse. lto batteries are inherently safe against short circuits, have a huge safety margin against forming lithium metal dendrites, you can safely hammer nails through them! the down sides being lower power density, lower voltage and its a bit more expensive.
Bangkok Airways at Samui Airport, Thailand called me to the gate agent and whisked me over to the baggage handling area in a golf cart because they detected my drone batteries were in my checked-in luggage. They were very courteous and I removed the drone batteries from the luggage and put it in my carryon instead. 👏🏻👍🏻😊🙏🏻
I carry phone, laptop, steam deck, a battery pack, my earbuds (2 batteries for the buds and another for the case, so that counts as 3), my smart watch, and my backpack has an integrated battery pack, so that's NINE lithium batteries for me.
Luckily the small 30mAh batts in the earbuds themselves, if they were to fail, are about as hazardous as a wet fart, these probably shouldn't even be part of the hazard assessment. Backpack batteries can be a problem unless it's quickly removable. They must be able to fit either your whole backpack or just the battery into that fireproof pouch of theirs to be able to put out the fire.
It's funny how we are not supposed to go thro tsa at an airport with water bottles and explosives but yet our phones, laptops and tablets are all potential explosive devices but yet we can bring those into a plane.
Likely because people would riot if they couldn't take such a fundamental item on the plane. To the majority of people on earth, a phone is a necessity, with good reason honestly. For some the laptop is as well. If they would forbid those the airlines would go bankrupt lol
That's because TSA is much more interested in theatrics than actual security. In their thought process, making people think they're being heavily scrutinized, with some invasive and annoying procedures and a few high-profile stops here and there, is much more effective than actually working out a way to secure things more.
@@thewhitefalcon8539as an engineer who has extensive knowledge of chemistry, the liquid explosive thing is basically bull. It is extremely unlikely that this could be done in the conditions of an airplane. Liquid explosives are extremely complex and very delicate, so if not mixed absolutely perfectly, you are either or both going to get a very underwhelming explosion, definitely not enough to do anything serious on an airplane, and/or simply set themselves on fire without doing any other damage at all. The thing is that liquid explosives sound impressive. They aren't really that impressive. It was something that some idiot who had no background in chemistry thought would shock the stupid flying public.
I used to work for the aviation security / baggage screening company I.C.T.S. at Dublin airport and you wouldn't belive the stuff i have caught in luggage
During my career working in hospitals, I always used Lithium Phosphate batteries wherever possible due to their far better safety profile, being almost immune to thermal runaway. The downside is that the energy density is lower than most other Lithium ones. Newer EVs are changing to LiFePO4 (Lithium-Iron-Phosphate) as the technology improves. When I am travelling, I carry any external battery banks in an impregnated fireproof glass fibre bag, designed specifically to contain fires. Fumes and smoke will still be emitted, of course, but any fire risk is much reduced.
There is quite a bit of history related to this subject. In the mid 70's and ELTs (Emergency Locator Transmitter or Crash Position Indicator) were just starting to be powered by Li batteries. Transport Canada mandated (ANO) this Li battery requirement. This was so that an ELT could meet the Canadian standard for an ELT 40 hours of operation at temperatures of -40. Please Google Marten Hartwell. After it was discovered that the Li batteries were very dangerous the Air Navigation Order (ANO) was rescinded until a fix for the Li battery ELT problem could be found.
I vaguely recall the battery of an ELT catching fire (fortuneatly on the ground) damaging the carbon fibre aft fuselage of an Ethiopian 787-8 at Heathrow some years ago. Expensive repair!
I'm more worried about BEV (battery powered car) parked in underground garage in building I live in, than by laptop or phone battery on my plane. One car battery pack contains several thousands tightly packed lithium cells. We already had fire in our building due to e-bike exploding while charging in one flat. BTW You can't extinguish lithium battery on fire with halon or anything else, as battery cell has own source of oxidizer. Only way to submerge in water to reduce temperature and slow down thermal runaway chemical reaction and prevent ignition of other cells in same battery.
The lithium-ion battery is the result of a collaborative effort by several scientists. - Stanley Whittingham: Developed the first functional lithium battery in the 1970s. - John Goodenough: Significantly improved the battery's performance by using a different cathode material. - Akira Yoshino: Created the first commercially viable lithium-ion battery. These three scientists were awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 2019 for their groundbreaking work on lithium-ion batteries.
0:01 What a coincidence! I've actually seen that exact same A380 a month ago in Narita Airport, Tokyo. Our A320Neo parked right alongside and I took a quick picture. First time I've ever seen an A380, and especially from that close, it really is massive!
I want to add my 2 cents as an ex-RC amateur. For any lithium batteries there's a fireproof poaches, available to buy in any hobby rc store or amazon/aliexpress. Even though they don't (and can't) prevent any sort of thermal runaway of the batteries, but they are made from a proper materials, that firstly - CAN confine the fire within the poach, and secondly - they really suck at heat transfer, so even though they will lay down on a flammable material such as wood, fabric - that material wouldn't catch the flame. And also worth to mention that all the warnings are applicable only to Li-ion and Li-Polymer batteries. In case of LiFePo - they're 100% safe, chemistry in them doesn't have such a properties that could catch fire.
@@tookitogoThe point is you can buy the pouches yourself. And you should if you’re using batteries that are particularly dangerous, such as RC batteries: they lack the safety features of most battery operated consumer electronics devices, and are frequently exposed to physical abuse.
1:47 M. Stanley Whittingham alongside Akira Yoshino and John B. Goodenough hit the Nobel price for chemistry for their work on lithium ion batteries in 2019.
Inergen is the replacement for Halon. It's cheaper and safer in an enclosed space; not as effective as Halon as a fire suppressant, but you just use more of it instead.
@@vikalm Yes, maybe. But Halon has to be kept under higher pressure so the cannister is heavier. Inergen is just nitrogen, CO2 and argon, which is easier to contain.
Merry Christmas Petter, to you and your Family Thank you for everything you do to familiarise all the interested people in the world of aviation! Greetings from the UK, Anthony
16:00 Non-removable lithium batteries over 2.7 Wh are not allowed? That's every modern cell phone. That would mean nearly every passenger flying on a plane would be breaking the rules.
Not so. I have a 2024 Android phone with a removable battery. They still exist, and are still being manufactured. Don't let the big companies fool you into thinking otherwise. It does mean you'd have to give up on Apple phones though...
I used to work security and in my country you were allowed lithium batteries in carry on so long as they are not connected to a device and the charger ports are covered with tape and not signs of tampering or damage. The only time when they’d be flagged is if there’s so many the X-ray cannot decipher other items (batteries on an X-ray screen shows up as a blue and black mass) in a bag and that bag will then be marked and sent to recheck for further inspection or to declutter the bag to get a more enhanced scan
Have you ever seen the 1960s TV show "Thunderbirds"? Are you familiar with Thunderbird 2? It was a cargo craft that carried interchangeable pods to carry various different contents to a destination. I'm picturing an aircraft using the same principle that could drop a burning cargo pod over an ocean or a safe area to get it away from the plane. It's obvious that many logistical problems would have to be resolved in such a design, but the central idea of getting rid of the burning section of a plane and saving the plane has a lot in its favor.
You are spot on about these batteries. I have been working with Li-Ion and Li-Po batteries for over a decade now. I have had 3 different types of failures. 1 was a thermal runaway, one was a venting and the last one was simply an explosive event. it was the smaller format 14430 li-ion battery that exploded on top of my 1/2" glass top work bench - It was not tempered glass but it exploded and shattered the entire glass surface on one side of the 48" wide 24" tall panel. Very powerful explosion and a very sobering event. The lithium oxide gas that was evident made things even more disconcerting. I could not imagine an anomaly happening on board an aircraft 30,000 feet in the air. Very scary
Lithium batteries up to 0.3g or 2.7Wh are allowed for *checked* luggage. You can carry on a lot more: up to 100Wh per battery. 2.7Wh is basically nothing; less than the average mobile phone, let alone a laptop.
there are a lot of different lithium chemistries the 0.3g limit, i belive, is for non rechargeable lithium batteries that contain metallic lithium whilst the second higher limit us for rechargeable lithium batteries which don’t contain a lithium metal foil. saying that there is a massive difference between difference between rechargeable chemistries lithium polymer batteries become fireworks when put a nail through them, whilst lithium titanate batteries just sit there doing very little.
Agree, I think this is one rare case where MentorPilot wasn’t able too give us clear facts. The way he explained it I would understand as it’s not allowed to bring my iPhone onboard. (non removable battery, 14Wh)
For me all this was just confusing and not meeting the reality. He said that above 2.7Wh built in batteries can not be even carried in, but all mobile phones these days have built in 10Wh - 30Wh lipo batteries and they are allowed on the airplane. Laptops with even higher capacity built in batteries are also allowed.
Another aspect that could be mentioned in a future revision of this video are battery chemistries that are safer than the common lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2), especially lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). I'm actually surprised they didn't switch to LiFePO4 in the 787, considering that the weight of the containment boxes they had to add should more than exceed the weight difference of LiFePO4 for the same capacity. Maybe we'll also see the use of safer battery chemistries in future consumer electronics.
Design the plane so it can dump its cargo from the cockpit if needed. Fire alarm goes off in the cargo hold, captain pulls a leaver that opens doors underneath the aircraft like bomb bay doors on a bomber.
There was a bus that could do that once. Look for the documentary "The Big Bus" from 1976. The engineer who designed the bus would end up marrying Jed Bartlet and become First Lady when Bartlet was elected President. But she nearly drowned in the bus when dumping the luggage was insufficient and they decided to flood the galley in the back with all of the sodas they had, not knowing she was unconscious in it. Dumping cargo would require depressurizing aircraft and the design of fuselage would not be able to use the underbelly for structural strenght if it were all for doors to dump cargo.
20:50 “Boeing did not test for”, is it not the case that Boeing “outsourced” all of the design and testing of the battery system to an “outside company”? In addition, when it comes to some removable batteries, like Dewalt’s 60V lithium ion batteries, an additional “red plastic interruptor” has to be inserted so as to physically convert the “single” battery into a “multiple grouped set of batteries” of which EACH GROUP IS INDEPENDENTLY LESS THAN THE 100 WATT-HOUR LIMIT. So something that looks like a single battery that is over the limit can be carried on an aircraft?
@mentournow, please fix error in limits for devices with non-removable batteries. It is ridiculous to emphasize that you could not bring devices with non-removable batteries over 2.7Wh in the cabin, when all phones and laptops have much more than that.
16:00 >=2.7 Wh is forbidden ??? "You can't check them in, you can't *carry* them with you" YES, you can carry them with you. (You just not allowed to check them in.) Every iPhone ever exceeds 2.7Wh! So do Android phones. A 1'000 mAh Li battery is > 2.7 Wh. (1 Ah * 3.7 V = 3.7 Wh) Current phones are closer to 20 Wh and gaming notebooks can reach 100 Wh.
I'm a public health economist, and at my former employer I was working on, among other things, e-cigarette health risks and policy. We actually had to do some estimates of the risk of the lithium batteries exploding to put a social cost in dollar terms of their overall impact on health for the average user.
Lol! If it was me, it would only be in the engine compartment. You're less likely to have a fire start inside your car, as every circuit has a fuse rated at half the wiring rating. Outside of a liquid fuel fire, exhaust systems are the most common cause of cat fires. Ford has recalled many of their EcoBoost powered vehicles because of high exhaust temps starting fires. Halon works amazing, but it's expensive. I wonder if CO would work better than CO2. It seems to work better on people! 😅
@@kevinyancey958 CO (Carbon monoxide) burns quite well to produce C02. As CO, it is toxic and builds up in your blood as you breathe, monopolising the haemoglobin which can then no longer carry oxygen. There have been several documented light aircraft crashes/deaths due to CO poisoning of the pilot; the CO leaking from the engine compartment into the cockpit.
I usually have to explain to some of my customers why a certain thermostat that seems absolutely innocuous and is used in some professional ovens, can't be shipped by air. It contains a few grams of NaK (Search youtube if you want to see some nice fires). It is an absolutely forbidden substance, in any quantity, even in cargo planes.
A few weeks ago I ordered a battery powered spot welder from China. These devices have Li-Po batteries that can output insane amounts of current (>100A). I was surprised that it was flown to Europe and was even more surprised that upon arrival the battery was charged at 4.03V. Most likely thousands of these types of batteries are flown around the word every day. Somehow the chances of them catching fire must be very low because if one would catch fire, I’m sure we would learn about that. I’m not saying this is safe, just that I’m surprised of all of the above.
I think it’s a mistake to assume the risk is just low-perhaps what has actually happened is our precautions have mostly worked. All the layers of what stuff is allowed on what plane, how things can be packed, what level they’re supposed to be charged to for shipping, what stuff it should/shouldn’t be next to, the procedures for when things do catch fire-I think we don’t hear about fires much because of all the preparations made for if they happen.
@ I mentioned chance not risk. (Risk = Chance x Effect). I doubt that speciale precautions were taken for these devices. I couldn’t see anything on the packaging that indicated that there was a battery inside the package. Therefore it’s my impression that no special mitigating measures are taken for these relatively small batteries. I think that if a battery like the one I got would catch fire mid flight, the result could very well be catastrophic, depending on what else would be near it and we would hear from it, if it would happen. Just my thoughts.
When I was in school my mom insisted on putting my notebook in the main luggage because she thought it was less likely to be stolen from there than from the backpack. Many put it there still for the same reason.
5:45 Halon fire extinguishers are less available because: 1. Ozone Depletion: Halons are ozone-depleting substances regulated under the Montreal Protocol. 2. Production Ban: Their production was phased out in many countries starting in 1994. 3. Environmental Concerns: Alternatives with lower environmental impact are preferred. 4. Restricted Use: They are now reserved for critical applications like aviation and military use.
Each device should have easy to find and read information and each airline has to make it clear how much is allowed and how to make the calculations. Nobody wants to be burnt. Make it easy to plan for people when they prepare their luggage. Not everyone an engineer . Thanks for making this video!
As a separate safety tip, please remind passengers to be sure to bring along lots of extra quarters. This is to use when the oxygen masks are ever deployed, because it can take a long time to flag down an attendant to make change for you since you only have a minute or so to get the oxygen flowing . As you know, airlines are always looking for ways to increase revenue and they found that people don't try shopping around for cheaper service when confronted with this situation and will just shovel in the quarters to keep the oxygen flowing.
It was mentionned that we are slowly running out of Halon... but what is preventing us from finding a way to start making halon in some sort of chemical factory or smth? (Im just curious tbh)
It's a synthetic compound and was always made in a chemical factory... The reason we're running out is because it's illegal to manufacture in most developed countries (because of environmental concerns) - but aviation industry has been using existing (and recycled) stock for the past 20 or so years that is running out now. It is actively being replace by other more environmentally friendly solutions, in fact i think in the EU no new aircraft should have halon extinguishers starting from 2020.
Halon works by being nonreactive. BUt haloalkanes are made using chemicals like Bromine, Chlorine, Iodine and Florine. Of those only Chlorine is easily available.
Mentour didn’t get into the specifics as not really relevant, but Halon works not just by excluding oxygen but by becoming involved in the chemical chain reaction that is ‘fire’ and disrupting it. Unfortunately the properties that make it so effective also make it an extremely potent destroyer of ozone, with halon 1301 being about 16 times worse than ordinary CFCs for ozone depletion potential. Once this was realised production was stopped and all use banned other than a few critical applications, of which the main one is aviation fire suppression. Halon stocks in other uses were pulled in and stored for the permitted critical applications, but no permission to make more has been granted. They will eventually be phased out from aviation but they are very difficult to replace. Nothing else does what halon can do.
On a flight a decade ago my iphone began to heat up, burning my thigh. Luckily, it was partially charged, so quickly discharged and cooled down. I'm glad you have done this. At home, my charging station is two sheets of 3/8ths glass (melting point 2200F) seperated by a 1/2 inch air space. These batteries are very useful, but potentially very daangerous.
I’ve been on the flight shown early in the video. It’s the absolute worst u can imagine. The amount of smoke is just unthinkable. You really have to make quick decisions otherwise you will just lose consciousness…
I do not think the information on restricted lithium batteries here is accurate in regards to non-removable batteries.. The FAA allows devices with less than 100Wh onboard, example 16" macbook pro. 2.7Wh is very little, even phones contain 7X the amount (Assuming it's 2.7Wh at 3.7v). You need to recheck the information!!!
Peter, Halon was outlawed back in 1997. It's only allowed for use in Nuclear power stations these days. Usually today "Innogen" is used which is a mix of other gasses
I have travelled a few times, carrying drone batteries. here are a few good tips for lithium batteries: - always have them in your hand luggage. - keep all spare batteries in separate fire safe bags. Don't use the bags that allow you to put multiple batteries in the one bag. If one of these batteries fails, a lithium fire will spread to any other battery that fire can reach. - the biggest tip I can say, is to never travel with any lithium battery, fully charged to 100% You won't be using these batteries until you get to your final destination, so there's no need to to charge them beyond 70% This spare capacity gives the chemicals within the battery some wiggle room, which keeps them in a much more stable condition.
I was surprised recently when DHL refused to ship my gift to a different city. Wireless headphones alone have three batteries, and there is a rule of a maximum of two batteries per shipment. In this video, it is clearly explained why.
Halon was used in computer rooms as a fire suppressant. I was told that if that system went off to get out of there ASAP. That was in the early 90s. Halon has been on the way out and that's a good thing.
As a Firefighter in NY Lithium Batteries are now our leading cause of structural fires. The city is flooded with poorly made cheap Chinese e-bikes, scooters etc. lithium Ion batteries an be Very dangerous
Like so many things it is about control of that potential. The bigggy is the Battery Management System. Some electronics that shut the battery down if it is full, nearly discharged or too hot. Some also stop charging if it is too cold. Bigger batteries should have them built in but if not then Oh Dear. The physical damage should be just with an external force but some are just not made strong enough. The solution, know your supplier.
Halon production has banned since it harms the ozone layer. Also Halon works differently than carbon dioxide. CO2 smothers the flame while Halon chemically inferers with the combustion process.
If you travel with lithium batteries, there are a few thing you can do to reduce the risk. Don't buy off brand battery packs. Quality batteries cost more and are far less likely to have a problem. If you don't need a device while in flight, take the charge down to 20% before boarding. Less power in the battery, less chance of fire if it shorts out. Taking it below 20% damages the battery so don't do it. If you don't need to recharge a device in flight, wait till you're on the ground before you do so. If you need to recharge it, the less charge the better and if possible no more than 80% as a full charge is a bit more risky. Battery failures in a properly designed device are the result of a flaw in the battery which isn't common but these procedures will reduce the impact should you have one.
Thermal runaway is in the structure of a battery. If you store any battery over a long time you will notice that the charge has decreased. There's some leakage current inside the battery leading to self discharging. As energy cannot vanish, it creates heat. Not much, but a little bit. However, leakage current increases over temperature. There's a temperature where the runaway starts. Normally, it's not a problem, but if the battery is damaged, it can lead to additional leakage current starting the runaway at lower temperatures.
Ive noticed theres some disregard for lithium batteries in checked bags as long as they are related to toiletries: think electronic toothbrush or shaver. I have asked when checking bags and they said these are fine... despite having lithium batteries.
These removable/non-removable battery rules do not seem to be enforced as written. For example, most people would call a 100 Wh battery inside a laptop a non-removable battery, which would make it forbidden to carry-on. I have no idea how or why laptop batteries that require taking the laptop apart with a screwdriver to remove are considered "removable", other than bending the rules for the sake of practicality.
The vast majority of laptops are designed with this rule in mind, with batteries that come close, but don’t quite exceed the 100Wh threshold. Even large laptops that would have room for more battery capacity tend to stick to that limit. For example, take the current 16” MacBook Pro. It’s advertised as 100Wh, but the small print says 99.6Wh.
This is why I prefer lithium ferro phosphate over lithium-ion polymer. The latter is famous for the runaway thermal, and is currently on the way to be replaced. LiFePO are much safer. Of course not as safe as no batteries, but the famous runaway problem with inextinguishable fire since it constantly reignites does not exist in LiFePO. Nor yet standard for mobile devices due to the size and how much energy such a battery can store, but beyond that they are getting the standard, including cars. Mobiles will follow soon, since they have other nice properties too - except not yet that high density storage.
Not all lithium batteries are so dangerous. LiFePO4 batteries won’t thermally run away or explode. It’s very annoying that they are classified the same general way meaning I can’t carry my portable power station on a plane.
@@InventorZahran great question actually. They’re not as well suited for intense loads. They’re more for longevity and stability. For their capacity, they are pretty light. But for sheer power output they’re worse than most types. Most people use them for RV and home back up power. Solar power systems and such. I have a power bank built into a backpack that’s about 380wh (nearly 4 times the limit) I use for working weekends as a videographer to keep my phone, cameras, and lights charged. You could stab a spike straight through my entire battery pack and it wouldn’t catch fire. The little 17wh camera batteries (about the same as an iPhone) are significantly more dangerous. I fly with the cameras themselves all the time. But yet I know damn well if I brought that backpack through TSA I’d be in the interrogation room immediately lol. It’s just because airlines and TSA don’t really have any incentive to remake their policies to accept this one type of battery, test all these claims themselves to verify, and then retrain all their people to know exactly which “types” of lithium batteries are allowed. It’s far easier and more efficient to just limit to the least acceptable one. Basically they can’t be bothered
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So what happens if we ran out of Halon ?
Free advice for Boeing: 1) Use lithium titanate batteries instead of lithium ion 2) Add possibility do drop cargo container in flight
BTW, after this comment they can't patent any of these
@@machintrucGaming Agents like HFC-145, FE-36, and others are available as the more potent ozone depleting HFC/HCFC/CFC Halon gases (halon is not a single gas, it's a bunch of compounds that are typically brominated chlorofluorocarbons or hydrogenated chlorofluorocarons. (I have an EPA 608 universal license for refrigerant gases).
16:00 this information is wrong. Any phone/tablet/laptop has a built-in battery >2.7 Wh.
@@Henning_Rech I'm pretty sure he meant 2.7 Wh for checked-in luggage. IE what's goes into cargo hold. You shouldn't pack phone laptop tablet into your suitcase when going on a plane.
The issue of carry-on bags being taken at the gate to be checked due to lack of overhead space is deeply concerning. Gate agents never seem to ask if these bags contain lithium batteries, even though most passengers store battery-powered devices in their carry-ons. In the rush and frustration of being forced to part with their bags, passengers likely don’t think to remove these devices. This oversight poses a serious safety risk that must be addressed before it leads to disaster.
every time I've seen it, the gate agents have asked.
This!!! That's why I never bring carry on. I always have battery banks with me so I don't want to risk one of them not being in my presence. (Yes I even take them with me when I go to the rest room)
They do ask quite a bit of the time but as a tech person I specifically pack my carry on and check in differently. I get the overhead space is an issue for them but its frustrating for passengers especially for airlines that charge additional for carry on space.
They do ask in Europe
If you don't think hundreds of lithium batteries make it into the cargo hold regardless of policies, I have bad news for you.
For anyone wondering why we're running out of Halon (fire suppressing gas), it's because its production was banned, as it causes ozone layer depletion, and there are safe alternatives available which are just as effective.
There’s Haltron, FM-200 & other an alternatives gas that does the similar for fire suppression. I ran a few data centers that started with halon but newer builds are using FM-200. I believe that Haltron II is near direct replacement for halon.
Yes I usually like MP’s videos, but this one has a lot of fear mongering for some reason.
The UPS crash was one of the saddest crashes. I think I have heard about! The fact that the poor pilot was all on his own and had little or no chance for anyone to help him must’ve been horrifying for him.
Pilots, there were two of them
On that plane was a lot of naked battery cells, which shorted. Transporting fabric devices with individual batteries isn't so dangerous
@@fjp3305 The captain of that flight got incapacitated, and the FO had to fly alone for some 25 minutes - with zero visibility in the cabin, relying on another airborne aircraft, the pilots of which relayed the ATC instructions to him (due to radio frequency issues) and his responses back, and totally overwhelmed by the workload and horrors of the whole situation.
@@fjp3305 Initially, yes - but not after the fire...
You think they would’ve learned after all those 787s that burned to the ground.
I had a long layover in Amsterdam and had a night flight out. I was charging my phone in my shirt pocket w/ a battery bank. Getting to the plane seat, I noticed how hot the battery was and how it was slightly bulged. I talked to a flight attendant who was happy to leave the battery with someone on the ground. In the air I unexpectedly got a goodie bag with some wine. Hopefully future tech can avoid these thermal runaway issues.
One of the most important rules about lithium batteries is that they should not be used in confined spaces without adequate circulation (e.g. bags, pockets, pouches, under pillows, etc.).
Using them in such confined spaces can cause them to rapidly heat up and possibly experience a thermal runaway event.
@@franzalex it's like the big front chest pocket of a shirt with the battery facing toward a single layer of fabric toward the airport air. maybe the phone against my chest had kept me from feeling the battery warmth.
We develop devices for our comfort and usability and later discover the dangers of them.
It’s not always obvious when a battery is bad. But there can be subtle signs.
My 2013 MacBook Pro laptop always used to get warm when charging. After about 5 years, the trackpad stopped being able to click. At 10 years the battery life was
@@aaalllenwe don't often think about it but our bodies are space heaters. You effectively were charging a fast-charging device while the half the battery pack was pressed against a 98f / 36f warming plate.
That makes a significant difference when these battery packs rely on passive cooling.
I do wish you went into WHY halon is "running out" and that active development to find an alternative has been going for quite a while. (And for those wondering, halon is a chlorofluorocarbon compound, the same class of compounds that was found to cause ozone depletion. Production of CFCs was outlawed under the montreal protocol, and the halon currently used in aircraft fire suppression systems is from stockpiles produced before the Montreal protocol came into effect)
Is there a better compound that can suppress fire? Or outside of CFC nothing truly that effective?
Ah, so it's running out because it's basically forbidden to be produced? I was wondering about that, it's not as if it's too hard to produce...
@@PavelKostromitinov basically they don’t want the Ozone in the upper atmosphere to be gone completely, otherwise skin cancer (and associated diseases) would become a far more regular occurrence, on top of other health risks.
@estellebright2579 yes, I know all that. But still thanks.
We used to have Halon at my workplace, but we´ve now replaced it with a new system that´s even safe to breath in (even if it´s not really pleasant). It´s called Novec 1230. I have no clue how it would do in replacing Halon in aviation, and I don´t know about suppressing Li-ion fires. It seems those are relying solely on cooling, since the batteries produce their own oxygen.
This may be considered a small point by some, but in chemistry terms it is a major difference: The reason halon is an effective fire suppressant at a concentration of only 3% is because it does not need to displace oxygen to extinguish a fire. It works the same way as the old "fire grenades", which were just glass globes filled with carbon tetrachloride. Fire extinguishers used on board aircraft in the 1930s and 1940s also used the same compound - these were often just brass cylinders filled with the liquid, which would be sprayed at the fire using a manually operated piston pump. Extremely reliable and effective. Halon systems also use halogenated organic compounds (technically carbon tetrachloride is a halon variety), though modern halon systems use varieties with lower boiling points and are therefore much easier to vaporise into the gas phase.
Most fire extinguishing methods function by either displacing oxygen or by rapidly absorbing heat - carbon dioxide or other inert gas systems do the former, water-based systems do the latter. But there is a third way: Flames are a free radical chain reaction, and if you can supply enough chain terminating radicals to stop the reaction, the flames will be suppressed or even extinguished entirely. This is how halon systems work: The heat of the fire partially breaks down the halogenated compound, rapidly generating lots of chlorine radicals, which terminate the chain reaction within the flames. Enough oxygen for combustion can still be present - replacing only 3% of the air doesn't reduce the oxygen concentration enough to suppress fire by oxygen starvation. But shutting down the flames with chlorine radicals can safely and effectively suppress fire even when there is still plenty of oxygen present.
Great information. So it looks like Halon would be effective at fighting larger lithium fires in EVs and alike. Aside from the ozone deleting nature of the chemical and not wanting to use limited quantities on fires on land. Most fire fighting methods in use remove heat or oxygen like you say. However lithium battery fires are self oxidating which means they are hard to extinguish. As said in the video it is about suppression and containment rather than extinguishment. These cells are great expect when on fire.
too much science; didn't understand
Last year I had just boarded a flight and realized that the USB connector for the battery in my ‘smart’ carryon had been broken. The plastic piece inside an older style USB connector that forces you to insert the cable in a particular orientation also supports the metal tabs that connect the battery to the inserted cable. I tried to plug a cable into the battery and found the plastic piece was missing. Before boarding the flight I had dropped the battery; the plastic piece was still inside the end of the cable. This meant the leads on the battery side (including the power leads() were loose to move around and hit each other and arc.
I called for the flight attendant, explained what had happened and that I work on that stuff for a living and that it would be a good idea to get the battery off of the plane before the flight departed. He was initially confused but eventually took the battery.
A while later he came back and said that captain thanked me for being proactive on getting the battery off the plane. I guess the flight attendant had taken it to the captain first and the captain agreed with me.
As a Check In agent I can say that I always ask every passenger if they have any batteries oder dangerous good in their checked baggage but if I think about the self drop off counters which are becoming more standard at this time then I dont want to know how many batteries go unnoticed. In ten passengers a minimum of two need to get something out of their bag when I ask them.
Thank you for the great video!
Any idea how to prevent such practice?
@@zazu9117 Simply ban it, then make sure the regulation is followed.
Have you raised this directly with the relevant air safety authorities? IMHO this warrants a study. Stop a number of people who've done self checkin, ask them if they have anything with batteries in (same phraseology you use on the checkin desk), find out what proportion have lithium batteries in their bags who didn't know they weren't supposed to, that's the important bit, we're talking about the kind of passenger you're catching, not the ones who will blatantly lie, then we can run calculations on risk to individual aircraft. If the EASA/CAA/FAA etc were to do this at least we can start putting numbers against your observation and then reccomendations can be made. @MentorNow is this something where you can help?
Ha, and another two of ten just know the right answer ("no") and give it without much thought. You will have lithium batteries in checked baggage...
what if you just say that you don't have any? nobody actually checks that
:) gate agent made me check 2 computers and a portable monitor at the gate because company policy did not allow extra bag on board. I offered to just pay to bring extra bag onboard but they refused. I told them there’s electronics with large batteries inside and they said “just make sure they are off it’s fine.”
The flight was only half full.
I mean nothing happened but…I feel maybe not everyone is on the same page about batteries.
As a sailor (who had a fire on board once), I’d note that boats are another place where - despite being *surrounded* by water - fire is one of the scariest emergencies. You can’t get to safety easily or quickly, and the fire, if uncontrolled, will quickly remove all your survival options.
Like the car carriers sunk by EV fires
I actually flew into my holidays a few days ago and left behind a powerbank because it looked already quite deformed. I mentioned this in some talks to my friends and many of them were not aware of this hazard at all.
Thank you for this great video, now I have something grounded to share with them.
Did your house still exist after you came back from vacation?
Yup did the same with my work laptop after it started to swell up thanks to a "spicy pillow" inside. Fortunately, sourced a new battery quite quickly, but I'd bet a good percentage of those 2000 batteries will be in pretty grim condition...
I'm glad you let us know about this. Last month I was offered to put my rucksack with my laptop and wireless headphones into the cargo hold but declined since I didn't want them getting damaged by ramp agents. Now I know I need to always carry them on board with me!
I am a technician and have had a phone battery catch fire as I was trying to replace it. Truly terrifying experience. I am always super parinoid when packing.
I had my phones battery bulge and push the backplate off (for reference I own a flip and had recently replaced the bottom backplate myself, i just used double sided tape to seal it off since its for my own use) which in turn pushed off my mask, while in a lecture I noticed how my mask wasnt fitting, realised it was a battery and later took it out. I went to a repair shop since I figured they probably had a way to dispose of it, you cant just throw a li-on battery in regular trash. I handed it over and as I was leaving I saw her just throw it in a regular trash can...
I carried 10 drone batteries in a special fire resistant carry on bag on a flight to Las Vegas in 2020. Each battery met requirements but were also inside individual fire proof bags (small) and i had installed by a fire specialist a small halon extinguisher with a pull cable ring mounted on the outside of the bag opening under a velcro tab. I showed the bag and it's contents to a supervisor with the airline a day before the flight and he approved my bag and it's contents for my flight the next day and while boarding the gate personnel pulled me aside to confirm all the details of my bag and re-approved my carryon as ok. They also thanked me for making certain my batteries would pose no threat to the flight. I had done all my homework well in advance and it made everyone on the flight safew as well as myself and twin sons going to Vegas for thier 21st birthday Do your research, get prior approval and make your trip safe and uneventful. I was able to get some great video of the nevada desert and vegas skyline on our trip. well worth the work!!!
As someone who has had a Li-ion fire burn out the inside of a vehicle (damaged battery was placed there after a flood and one week later thermally ran away), they are not pleasant to deal with. I have also flown internationally with large li-ion battery packs for cordless tools. We have to realize the danger so that we can self regulate. I knew the danger and followed the rules, but when I asked about it at check in the check in agents had no idea what the regulations were. They were always on my person and looked after regularly during the flight. If you know the reason for the rules and the danger associated with not following them, people might think differently about following them.
With those limits virtually every modern laptop can't be brought onboard as they don't have removable batteries.
It is not just Laptops. Basically every Smartphone is above that too
He didn't explain it correctly, I think.
Yeah, that feels like incorrect information/misunderstanding of some sort.
I just did a search and Jet2 have a limit of 100Wh, not 2.7. That seems a lot more reasonable. My Surface Pro has a 46Wh battery!
@@mog0 Just checked my laptop - 42Wh
I used to travel quite a bit in the mid 2000s and usually carried amateur radio equipment with Li batteries. I always stored the batteries in a fire resistant bag, designed for charging them whenever I traveled with them. I remember checking in at an airport one time and when asked about batteries, I showed them how I was transporting them. Their comment was to thank me for taking the care to keep them as safe as possible, the fire resistant bag is still used to this day. I have never had a lithium battery fire - and I don't want one!
Well done, probably the most important video you've ever released. This is information that all flying passengers need to be aware of!
I've actually considered buying a fire resistant pouch for my electronics on aircraft. Maybe if we werent getting hammered over luggage fees I'd consider it more seriously.
i think i will too tbh. especiualy if im taking my camara or a drone with me.
I have quite a few for uav batteries and power bricks. I think they are kevlar or fiberglass and I tested one with great results. Very cheap on Bezos store.
I had a phone battery smoke and burn inside my home and it wasn't fun. I keep the uav ones inside the bags and a steel ammo can now.
LiPo charging pouches for RC vehicle batteries are fire resistant bags that should be used any time you're charging a LiPo. Lithium Polymer batteries are far more volitile than the Lithium-Ion batteries in your phone, laptop, etc. These charging pouches aren't too expensive, and aren't heavy. Last time I was on a flight to Chicago this December it crossed my mine, but I was already on the plane when it did. :P
Definitely a good idea though, as it would do a lot to slow the spread of a battery fire.
@@absolarixCorrection: phone batteries are lithium polymer too. So are (most) laptop batteries.
The reason RC batteries are more dangerous is due to the battery being more exposed to physical damage in minor crashes. In the case of drones, the batteries often lack some key self protections, to sacrifice the battery in order to save the drone.
Maybe Santa will bring you one
I work as a ticket/ gate agent for delta and never really understood why we ask about batteries in their checked luggage. Now I know to take it very seriously, thanks for this video!
They don't tell you why you're asking specific questions???
That’s horrifying
Isn't DGR-training mandatory for you? That's crazy!
they should have taught yall that. if you mind dropping me your email, i can send you the DGR manual
You didn’t think to ask?
The rules are confusing, and i think you even got them wrong. Phones and other personal electronic devices often have over 2.7 Wh in capacity and were not mentioned in the video, nor was the requirement to actually remove said removable batteries from said devices.
But anyway this video made me review what batteries I'm traveling with, and made me realize I've been breaking the rules by not removing the battery from my camera when traveling, so I'll do that in future
I usually do all I can to check rules and such before I even pack my bag but I also didn’t know about having to remove batteries from my camera either
Yes it's such a shame that the entire video is about batteries and their different sizes and he got something like that completely wrong. Even the first iPhone had a battery with significantly more Wh than 2.7 Wh 😂😂
That 2.7Wh limit is for checked-in baggage, there is another thread discussing this
@@mykola2 Yes but he says they're completely forbidden even in the cabin. And yet he admits of carrying a phone with him on flights.
Halon is only running out because of it being banned from being produced. It is a simple synthesis to make it, just the Montreal Protocol law makes it illegal to produce more of it.
Yep. The enviro fascists' strike again.
It's important to note that the production of Halon has been banned for a good reason - it causes ozone layer depletion. There are safe alternatives available which are just as effective, which is why Halon is being phased out.
The iPhone 16 pro max battery has a capacity of 18.17 wH, and I'd assume ipads have larger capacity. This is much larger than the 2.7 wH you describe as the limit for carrying aboard. So where's the disconnect?
I think this 2.7 wh limit maybe applies to only checked luggage - contrary to what Petter says 16:00
That makes more sense. We well know airlines have rules around portable electronic devices, and they aren’t just, “leave them at home”.
It seems like the limit for checked luggage is 2.7Wh, while the limit for carry on luggage without additional permission is 100Wh.
The 2.7WH is only for the hold, but you shouldn’t really put any batteries in the hold just in case.
It's badly explained in the video, here's a summary from the dangerous goods regulation overview table, highly suggest reading it:
2.7 Wh max for "baggage with non removable batteries"
100 Wh max for loose batteries or things with batteries meant as a power source (power banks).
100 Wh max for PEDs (personal electronic devices) with lithium batteries.
160 Wh for the above instead of the 100 Wh limit is allowed when the operator specifically allows it.
The 2.7 Wh limit appears to refer to baggage as in suitcases or similar with non-removable batteries, the reason these are not allowed is because these articles are too big to put in a fire resistant bag, whereas loose batteries and PEDs can.
I saw that and realised my phones 5000ma equates to about 18.5wH and my laptop is about 3x that.
Fascinating and very informative. I imagine, having been an airport firefighter, you know all sides of this situation, Petter.
i am a drone pilot who flies older multirotors from around the same age as the listed accident. The type of li-po batteries used for them are extremely spicy, especially when charging. They have no regulation or protection circuits whatsoever so if they short out they are going to almost certainly cook off.
I don’t fly with the big ones for that reason, and they get stored and charged in a fire resistant bag. I’ve known people charge their packs inside cinder blocks with a bag of sand suspended over them, so if one catches fire it will melt the bag and dump sand over it, But I can’t comment on how effective that would be, hopefully won’t need to find out.
People on the drone community have lost their homes, and even lives by being careless with the batteries. They are never to be charged unattended, and never to be underestimated.
The one time I have flown with drones I brought only my 30 gram tinywhoop with small number of gum stick sized batteries, in a fire resistant bag, in hand luggage, and that one’s a one-off i probably wouldn’t do again
Drone pilots are pilots like chiropractors are doctors.
@@robertthomas4329 Yeah, it's funny to call a toy operator a pilot. Still, the high performance guys can do some crazy stuff.
@@lithrae1These "toys" are currently redefining war.
I wouldn't look down on something that can follow you into trenches and even into pillboxes. After all, their appearance above or right behind people might be the last thing in life to underestimate.
@@jantjarks7946 why not address this comment to the guy actually dissing drone pilots? I wasn't. I also wasn't talking about military drones but rather the fun ones like the tinywhoop, whose owner prev dissed.
@@lithrae1 It's not about military by itself, but just as an example regarding their abilities / capabilities. That's why I addressed the "toy" part of your comment, most people completely underestimate them. War is obviously something far more serious than toys ever would be.
Besides Enders Game maybe. 😉
And yeah, I gave him a suggestion with who he should talk to actually understand what drones and their pilots are capable of.
Good to point out the dangers of Lithium batteries. But the fire and thermal runaway risk does depend on the battery Chemistry. For example Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries (LiFePO4) batteries do not suffer from thermal runaway and have non-combustible electrolytes. Although it tends not to be used in small portable devices. But may be used in wheelchairs.
It seems a shame to tar all chemistries with the same brush.
The problem with the Li batteries is they make their own oxygen when on fire so depriving them of oxygen is not always effective. And they can re-ignite. Not sure what the answer is to be honest.
Li in it's pure form will spontaneously ignite when exposed to air.
There is no Li metal in Li-ion batteries. The only batteries with metallic lithium are primary ones eg CR2032.
Sadly you can't usually physically examine glued on lithium batteries to see if they're puffy and degraded beyond their lifespan
The only real answer seems to be to immerse in a very large quantity of water, the water cannot stop the runaway reaction but takes away the heat until it is exhausted. Unfortunately most existing sprinkler systems in buildings etc. are inadequate for this task.
@@philiphumphrey1548 yeah remove the oxygen is the only sure way for stopping Li fires.
Flying is one of those industries that if something goes wrong onboard, things really go badly wrong
I would suspect the risks are even bigger during holiday travel, as people pack presents.
This proud Patreon member avoids holiday plane travel like the plague! (Not because of safety just because it is miserable)
¡Gracias!
Thanks!
Petter going back to his past airport firefighter self hahhaa
Very well done, Captain! I have really learned so much from your channel! I'm 63 and always wanted to get a GA license, and when I was around 25, I actually was somewhat interested in getting a commercial rating. The only problem was that I had no idea what I needed to do or even who I needed to talk to to get the training to see those dreams come to fruition. Now that I have learned that, my health won't allow me to pass my medical review, so now I am relegated to being an MS Flight Sim rated captain (OK, if I'm gunna dream I might as well dream BIG! 😂) Thank you for delivering your message "dummied down" enough for me to be able to understand! I very much enjoy, and look forward to each upcoming episode!
Merry Christmas from the Danimal household to the Mentour Pilot family home!
I travel loads as crew and occasionally as a passenger. I've only ever had my power bank inspected once. That was about a month ago in, of all places Shenzhen, China. Not sure what the security people were checking. Oddly, the power bank factory where it began life, was just 30 minutes away.
That last part is probably why they were concerned. They know how often those factories produce shoddy work.
"With great power comes great energy bill."
It's LiPo batteries that are the most likely to ignite. Most BEV manufacturers have switched to the more stable LiFePo architecture. Battery jump boxes use LiFePo or other stable types, in conjunction with capacitors to output high amperage, to avoid thermal damage. However, until there's a replacement to the LiPo's higher energy density, we will continue to use this unstable battery in compact electronics. I had a toy helicopter with lithium battery packs and my cat decided to play with one. Thanks to the package around the battery, it didn't ignite. It did get very hot and burn my carpet. Never toss lithium batteries in the trash. For one obvious reason, they can start fires even when they're discharged. The other is they can pollute ground water if the landfill liner fails (or was never used).
LiPo has higher specific energy density, but Li Ion are no less prone to thermal runaway. In fact the more recent chemistries that don't use cobalt have a lower threshold temperature for thermal runaway.
I got a spot welder with a LiPo battery shipped by air from China. There were no markings on the package indicating that there was a battery inside.
On arrival the voltage of the battery was 4.03V (which is high).
I was quite surprised because of this tbh.
It’s likely that thousands of these devices are shipped by air daily.
@@Conservator.4.03 is high for storage or shipping. But "3.7 volt" liIon are fully charged at around 4.19-4.22 volts
@@V8DV You are correct but I thought that 4.03V was unnecessary high.
As of 1 - 1 - 2025 IATA recommends for batteries contained in equipment:
- A state of charge not exceeding 30% of their rated capacity.
I’m sure that would correspond with a voltage of around 3.6V or less.
(But it’s not 2025 yet and it’s only a recommendation).
@ whenever I buy new batteries I like seeing them at 3.4-3.5... anything higher makes me wonder how degraded they are
2.7 Wh limit for checked luggage is an approximate capacity of three CR2032 cells with a small overhead. These cells are commonly used in trackers (Apple Airtag, Galaxy Smart Tag), rarely occurring suitcase smartlocks and as a timekeeping cell in many appliances in the range from motherboards to outlet-powered "smart-whatever". So, this limitation (or, in this case, I would say, allowance) makes total sense.
And for goodness' sake, if you are shipping any kind of lithium battery, encapsulated or not, declare it with the shipper so they can properly transport it safely.
Hmm. I am not sure when it happened but I remember having almost a shouting match with someone at the airport when they demanded I put my laptop to the checked luggage "because there is no room in the cabin". They sadly won to my great dismay as I wanted to watch movies all flight.
Thanks for giving me a great argument, especially one which benefits all people on an airplane.
As someone who ships parts for an airline and who previously moved commercial airfreight, THANK YOU.
Every year I ask Santa for an IATA DG book that gets rid of the Section II packing instructions for ELI & ELM (I'm still waiting, though the batteries shipping by themselves are now fully regulated DG & require the candy-striped form.) My colleagues & I thought the use of the batteries on the 787 was the dumbest design choice because of the inherent fire risks... at least until MCAS.
Your section about watt hours was not very clear & misleading though and could perhaps use an edit.
it depends on the battery chemistry, not all lithium chemistries are incendiary devices waiting for an excuse. lto batteries are inherently safe against short circuits, have a huge safety margin against forming lithium metal dendrites, you can safely hammer nails through them! the down sides being lower power density, lower voltage and its a bit more expensive.
Bangkok Airways at Samui Airport, Thailand called me to the gate agent and whisked me over to the baggage handling area in a golf cart because they detected my drone batteries were in my checked-in luggage. They were very courteous and I removed the drone batteries from the luggage and put it in my carryon instead. 👏🏻👍🏻😊🙏🏻
I carry phone, laptop, steam deck, a battery pack, my earbuds (2 batteries for the buds and another for the case, so that counts as 3), my smart watch, and my backpack has an integrated battery pack, so that's NINE lithium batteries for me.
Luckily the small 30mAh batts in the earbuds themselves, if they were to fail, are about as hazardous as a wet fart, these probably shouldn't even be part of the hazard assessment.
Backpack batteries can be a problem unless it's quickly removable. They must be able to fit either your whole backpack or just the battery into that fireproof pouch of theirs to be able to put out the fire.
It's funny how we are not supposed to go thro tsa at an airport with water bottles and explosives but yet our phones, laptops and tablets are all potential explosive devices but yet we can bring those into a plane.
Because if you cannot bring these devices, then the practicality of flying goes away.
In this decade, these are essential. Not even a convenience.
Likely because people would riot if they couldn't take such a fundamental item on the plane. To the majority of people on earth, a phone is a necessity, with good reason honestly. For some the laptop is as well. If they would forbid those the airlines would go bankrupt lol
A water bottle full of liquid X plo sieve is much worse than a laptop battery
That's because TSA is much more interested in theatrics than actual security. In their thought process, making people think they're being heavily scrutinized, with some invasive and annoying procedures and a few high-profile stops here and there, is much more effective than actually working out a way to secure things more.
@@thewhitefalcon8539as an engineer who has extensive knowledge of chemistry, the liquid explosive thing is basically bull. It is extremely unlikely that this could be done in the conditions of an airplane. Liquid explosives are extremely complex and very delicate, so if not mixed absolutely perfectly, you are either or both going to get a very underwhelming explosion, definitely not enough to do anything serious on an airplane, and/or simply set themselves on fire without doing any other damage at all. The thing is that liquid explosives sound impressive. They aren't really that impressive. It was something that some idiot who had no background in chemistry thought would shock the stupid flying public.
I used to work for the aviation security / baggage screening company I.C.T.S. at Dublin airport and you wouldn't belive the stuff i have caught in luggage
Please do share lol
Please don't share 😂😂
@olivermcdermidperring5755 trust me,you DONT want to know what i have seen.
Go on.
@olivermcdermidperring5755 you DONT want to know what i have seen in passenger luggage,Trust me
During my career working in hospitals, I always used Lithium Phosphate batteries wherever possible due to their far better safety profile, being almost immune to thermal runaway. The downside is that the energy density is lower than most other Lithium ones. Newer EVs are changing to LiFePO4 (Lithium-Iron-Phosphate) as the technology improves.
When I am travelling, I carry any external battery banks in an impregnated fireproof glass fibre bag, designed specifically to contain fires. Fumes and smoke will still be emitted, of course, but any fire risk is much reduced.
There is quite a bit of history related to this subject. In the mid 70's and ELTs (Emergency Locator Transmitter or Crash Position Indicator) were just starting to be powered by Li batteries. Transport Canada mandated (ANO) this Li battery requirement. This was so that an ELT could meet the Canadian standard for an ELT 40 hours of operation at temperatures of -40. Please Google Marten Hartwell. After it was discovered that the Li batteries were very dangerous the Air Navigation Order (ANO) was rescinded until a fix for the Li battery ELT problem could be found.
Just restrict flights in Canada during the winter. Problem solved! 😂
I vaguely recall the battery of an ELT catching fire (fortuneatly on the ground) damaging the carbon fibre aft fuselage of an Ethiopian 787-8 at Heathrow some years ago. Expensive repair!
@@Shadow__133 ouch... no flights to Hawaii???
I'm more worried about BEV (battery powered car) parked in underground garage in building I live in, than by laptop or phone battery on my plane. One car battery pack contains several thousands tightly packed lithium cells. We already had fire in our building due to e-bike exploding while charging in one flat.
BTW You can't extinguish lithium battery on fire with halon or anything else, as battery cell has own source of oxidizer. Only way to submerge in water to reduce temperature and slow down thermal runaway chemical reaction and prevent ignition of other cells in same battery.
The lithium-ion battery is the result of a collaborative effort by several scientists.
- Stanley Whittingham: Developed the first functional lithium battery in the 1970s.
- John Goodenough: Significantly improved the battery's performance by using a different cathode material.
- Akira Yoshino: Created the first commercially viable lithium-ion battery.
These three scientists were awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 2019 for their groundbreaking work on lithium-ion batteries.
0:01 What a coincidence! I've actually seen that exact same A380 a month ago in Narita Airport, Tokyo. Our A320Neo parked right alongside and I took a quick picture. First time I've ever seen an A380, and especially from that close, it really is massive!
I want to add my 2 cents as an ex-RC amateur. For any lithium batteries there's a fireproof poaches, available to buy in any hobby rc store or amazon/aliexpress. Even though they don't (and can't) prevent any sort of thermal runaway of the batteries, but they are made from a proper materials, that firstly - CAN confine the fire within the poach, and secondly - they really suck at heat transfer, so even though they will lay down on a flammable material such as wood, fabric - that material wouldn't catch the flame.
And also worth to mention that all the warnings are applicable only to Li-ion and Li-Polymer batteries. In case of LiFePo - they're 100% safe, chemistry in them doesn't have such a properties that could catch fire.
The video not only mentions, but shows the fireproof pouches.
@@tookitogoThe point is you can buy the pouches yourself. And you should if you’re using batteries that are particularly dangerous, such as RC batteries: they lack the safety features of most battery operated consumer electronics devices, and are frequently exposed to physical abuse.
1:47 M. Stanley Whittingham alongside Akira Yoshino and John B. Goodenough hit the Nobel price for chemistry for their work on lithium ion batteries in 2019.
Never check in a passenger carrying a bean burrito 🌯 😂
Happy Holidays to all.
sorry sir. i need to check yoru burito. how many types of beans dose it have on it?
Sometimes I experience thermal runaway after a night of Taco Bell, which also involves the release of noxious gases.
😅 thermal runaway. When tacos smell make a run for the border
Inergen is the replacement for Halon. It's cheaper and safer in an enclosed space; not as effective as Halon as a fire suppressant, but you just use more of it instead.
Which is why they still use halon in aviation where every kg carried makes a difference.
@@vikalm Yes, maybe. But Halon has to be kept under higher pressure so the cannister is heavier. Inergen is just nitrogen, CO2 and argon, which is easier to contain.
Merry Christmas Petter, to you and your Family
Thank you for everything you do to familiarise all the interested people in the world of aviation!
Greetings from the UK,
Anthony
16:00 Non-removable lithium batteries over 2.7 Wh are not allowed? That's every modern cell phone. That would mean nearly every passenger flying on a plane would be breaking the rules.
Not so. I have a 2024 Android phone with a removable battery. They still exist, and are still being manufactured. Don't let the big companies fool you into thinking otherwise.
It does mean you'd have to give up on Apple phones though...
@@trueriver1950 I've never had an iPhone. I have a Galaxy S24 Ultra and the battery isn't removable.
9:40 - Dangerous goods 'Methanol' and 'Dog Puppy, 1, 35 KG, Name: Killer' 😂
I used to work security and in my country you were allowed lithium batteries in carry on so long as they are not connected to a device and the charger ports are covered with tape and not signs of tampering or damage. The only time when they’d be flagged is if there’s so many the X-ray cannot decipher other items (batteries on an X-ray screen shows up as a blue and black mass) in a bag and that bag will then be marked and sent to recheck for further inspection or to declutter the bag to get a more enhanced scan
Have you ever seen the 1960s TV show "Thunderbirds"? Are you familiar with Thunderbird 2? It was a cargo craft that carried interchangeable pods to carry various different contents to a destination. I'm picturing an aircraft using the same principle that could drop a burning cargo pod over an ocean or a safe area to get it away from the plane. It's obvious that many logistical problems would have to be resolved in such a design, but the central idea of getting rid of the burning section of a plane and saving the plane has a lot in its favor.
Peter taking aviation videos to a new flight level as always
Thank you for all your work Dominik!
You are spot on about these batteries. I have been working with Li-Ion and Li-Po batteries for over a decade now. I have had 3 different types of failures. 1 was a thermal runaway, one was a venting and the last one was simply an explosive event. it was the smaller format 14430 li-ion battery that exploded on top of my 1/2" glass top work bench - It was not tempered glass but it exploded and shattered the entire glass surface on one side of the 48" wide 24" tall panel. Very powerful explosion and a very sobering event. The lithium oxide gas that was evident made things even more disconcerting. I could not imagine an anomaly happening on board an aircraft 30,000 feet in the air. Very scary
Lithium batteries up to 0.3g or 2.7Wh are allowed for *checked* luggage. You can carry on a lot more: up to 100Wh per battery.
2.7Wh is basically nothing; less than the average mobile phone, let alone a laptop.
there are a lot of different lithium chemistries the 0.3g limit, i belive, is for non rechargeable lithium batteries that contain metallic lithium whilst the second higher limit us for rechargeable lithium batteries which don’t contain a lithium metal foil.
saying that there is a massive difference between difference between rechargeable chemistries lithium polymer batteries become fireworks when put a nail through them, whilst lithium titanate batteries just sit there doing very little.
I think that 2.7Wh is meant to accomodate AirTags and other compact, low-power luggage tracking devices.
Agree, I think this is one rare case where MentorPilot wasn’t able too give us clear facts. The way he explained it I would understand as it’s not allowed to bring my iPhone onboard. (non removable battery, 14Wh)
@@NorthernLights1 yeah he conflated lithium-ion batteries and lithium batteries, which are very different things.
For me all this was just confusing and not meeting the reality. He said that above 2.7Wh built in batteries can not be even carried in, but all mobile phones these days have built in 10Wh - 30Wh lipo batteries and they are allowed on the airplane. Laptops with even higher capacity built in batteries are also allowed.
Another aspect that could be mentioned in a future revision of this video are battery chemistries that are safer than the common lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2), especially lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). I'm actually surprised they didn't switch to LiFePO4 in the 787, considering that the weight of the containment boxes they had to add should more than exceed the weight difference of LiFePO4 for the same capacity. Maybe we'll also see the use of safer battery chemistries in future consumer electronics.
Design the plane so it can dump its cargo from the cockpit if needed. Fire alarm goes off in the cargo hold, captain pulls a leaver that opens doors underneath the aircraft like bomb bay doors on a bomber.
... and if you're flying over a populated area?
There was a bus that could do that once. Look for the documentary "The Big Bus" from 1976. The engineer who designed the bus would end up marrying Jed Bartlet and become First Lady when Bartlet was elected President. But she nearly drowned in the bus when dumping the luggage was insufficient and they decided to flood the galley in the back with all of the sodas they had, not knowing she was unconscious in it.
Dumping cargo would require depressurizing aircraft and the design of fuselage would not be able to use the underbelly for structural strenght if it were all for doors to dump cargo.
20:50 “Boeing did not test for”, is it not the case that Boeing “outsourced” all of the design and testing of the battery system to an “outside company”?
In addition, when it comes to some removable batteries, like Dewalt’s 60V lithium ion batteries, an additional “red plastic interruptor” has to be inserted so as to physically convert the “single” battery into a “multiple grouped set of batteries” of which EACH GROUP IS INDEPENDENTLY LESS THAN THE 100 WATT-HOUR LIMIT. So something that looks like a single battery that is over the limit can be carried on an aircraft?
@mentournow, please fix error in limits for devices with non-removable batteries.
It is ridiculous to emphasize that you could not bring devices with non-removable batteries over 2.7Wh in the cabin, when all phones and laptops have much more than that.
I think you misunderstood, (or I did?)
The 2.7Wh limit was for baggage checked into the hold, not cabin luggage.
I did a placement with the local fire brigade and Li-Ion batteries in a thermal runaway are their worst nightmare 😮
16:00 >=2.7 Wh is forbidden ???
"You can't check them in, you can't *carry* them with you"
YES, you can carry them with you. (You just not allowed to check them in.)
Every iPhone ever exceeds 2.7Wh! So do Android phones. A 1'000 mAh Li battery is > 2.7 Wh. (1 Ah * 3.7 V = 3.7 Wh)
Current phones are closer to 20 Wh and gaming notebooks can reach 100 Wh.
2,7Wh was the capacity of phone batteries 20 years ago.
@benjaminhanke79 20 years ago batteries were user replaceable
I'm a public health economist, and at my former employer I was working on, among other things, e-cigarette health risks and policy. We actually had to do some estimates of the risk of the lithium batteries exploding to put a social cost in dollar terms of their overall impact on health for the average user.
Halon is awesome. It's something I always recommend people put in their cars, especially enthusiasts.
You're not fond of car enthusiasts?
Lol! If it was me, it would only be in the engine compartment. You're less likely to have a fire start inside your car, as every circuit has a fuse rated at half the wiring rating. Outside of a liquid fuel fire, exhaust systems are the most common cause of cat fires. Ford has recalled many of their EcoBoost powered vehicles because of high exhaust temps starting fires. Halon works amazing, but it's expensive. I wonder if CO would work better than CO2. It seems to work better on people! 😅
In Europe Halon is only allowed to be used in aircraft (and the military)...
@@paulroling1781 That's a good point, so it can't be used for dealing with self immolating cats as @kevinyancey958 has suggested.
@@kevinyancey958 CO (Carbon monoxide) burns quite well to produce C02. As CO, it is toxic and builds up in your blood as you breathe, monopolising the haemoglobin which can then no longer carry oxygen. There have been several documented light aircraft crashes/deaths due to CO poisoning of the pilot; the CO leaking from the engine compartment into the cockpit.
I usually have to explain to some of my customers why a certain thermostat that seems absolutely innocuous and is used in some professional ovens, can't be shipped by air. It contains a few grams of NaK (Search youtube if you want to see some nice fires). It is an absolutely forbidden substance, in any quantity, even in cargo planes.
100 Wh is a really big power bank. It's more in the laptop battery range.
Before holiday travel season? You're about a week late for that.
A few weeks ago I ordered a battery powered spot welder from China. These devices have Li-Po batteries that can output insane amounts of current (>100A).
I was surprised that it was flown to Europe and was even more surprised that upon arrival the battery was charged at 4.03V.
Most likely thousands of these types of batteries are flown around the word every day.
Somehow the chances of them catching fire must be very low because if one would catch fire, I’m sure we would learn about that.
I’m not saying this is safe, just that I’m surprised of all of the above.
i think its the cold temperatures in the cargo holds at altitude that keep them from having a thermal runaway. on the ground tho…its anyone’s guess
I think it’s a mistake to assume the risk is just low-perhaps what has actually happened is our precautions have mostly worked. All the layers of what stuff is allowed on what plane, how things can be packed, what level they’re supposed to be charged to for shipping, what stuff it should/shouldn’t be next to, the procedures for when things do catch fire-I think we don’t hear about fires much because of all the preparations made for if they happen.
@
I mentioned chance not risk. (Risk = Chance x Effect).
I doubt that speciale precautions were taken for these devices. I couldn’t see anything on the packaging that indicated that there was a battery inside the package. Therefore it’s my impression that no special mitigating measures are taken for these relatively small batteries.
I think that if a battery like the one I got would catch fire mid flight, the result could very well be catastrophic, depending on what else would be near it and we would hear from it, if it would happen.
Just my thoughts.
That is scary since batteries made in China tend to be lower quality then those from some other countries.
When I was in school my mom insisted on putting my notebook in the main luggage because she thought it was less likely to be stolen from there than from the backpack. Many put it there still for the same reason.
5:45 Halon fire extinguishers are less available because:
1. Ozone Depletion: Halons are ozone-depleting substances regulated under the Montreal Protocol.
2. Production Ban: Their production was phased out in many countries starting in 1994.
3. Environmental Concerns: Alternatives with lower environmental impact are preferred.
4. Restricted Use: They are now reserved for critical applications like aviation and military use.
Each device should have easy to find and read information and each airline has to make it clear how much is allowed and how to make the calculations. Nobody wants to be burnt. Make it easy to plan for people when they prepare their luggage. Not everyone an engineer . Thanks for making this video!
As a separate safety tip, please remind passengers to be sure to bring along lots of extra quarters. This is to use when the oxygen masks are ever deployed, because it can take a long time to flag down an attendant to make change for you since you only have a minute or so to get the oxygen flowing . As you know, airlines are always looking for ways to increase revenue and they found that people don't try shopping around for cheaper service when confronted with this situation and will just shovel in the quarters to keep the oxygen flowing.
It was mentionned that we are slowly running out of Halon... but what is preventing us from finding a way to start making halon in some sort of chemical factory or smth? (Im just curious tbh)
It's a synthetic compound and was always made in a chemical factory... The reason we're running out is because it's illegal to manufacture in most developed countries (because of environmental concerns) - but aviation industry has been using existing (and recycled) stock for the past 20 or so years that is running out now. It is actively being replace by other more environmentally friendly solutions, in fact i think in the EU no new aircraft should have halon extinguishers starting from 2020.
Halon works by being nonreactive. BUt haloalkanes are made using chemicals like Bromine, Chlorine, Iodine and Florine. Of those only Chlorine is easily available.
I see, thanks for explaining guys!
@@marhawkman303what are you talking about, fluorine, bromine, and iodine are all readily available and trivial to cheaply acquire
Mentour didn’t get into the specifics as not really relevant, but Halon works not just by excluding oxygen but by becoming involved in the chemical chain reaction that is ‘fire’ and disrupting it. Unfortunately the properties that make it so effective also make it an extremely potent destroyer of ozone, with halon 1301 being about 16 times worse than ordinary CFCs for ozone depletion potential. Once this was realised production was stopped and all use banned other than a few critical applications, of which the main one is aviation fire suppression. Halon stocks in other uses were pulled in and stored for the permitted critical applications, but no permission to make more has been granted. They will eventually be phased out from aviation but they are very difficult to replace. Nothing else does what halon can do.
On a flight a decade ago my iphone began to heat up, burning my thigh. Luckily, it was partially charged, so quickly discharged and cooled down. I'm glad you have done this. At home, my charging station is two sheets of 3/8ths glass (melting point 2200F) seperated by a 1/2 inch air space. These batteries are very useful, but potentially very daangerous.
I’ve been on the flight shown early in the video. It’s the absolute worst u can imagine. The amount of smoke is just unthinkable. You really have to make quick decisions otherwise you will just lose consciousness…
Spiderman didn't say that, Uncle Ben did. 😜
I do not think the information on restricted lithium batteries here is accurate in regards to non-removable batteries.. The FAA allows devices with less than 100Wh onboard, example 16" macbook pro. 2.7Wh is very little, even phones contain 7X the amount (Assuming it's 2.7Wh at 3.7v). You need to recheck the information!!!
@16:00
Peter, Halon was outlawed back in 1997. It's only allowed for use in Nuclear power stations these days.
Usually today "Innogen" is used which is a mix of other gasses
I have travelled a few times, carrying drone batteries. here are a few good tips for lithium batteries:
- always have them in your hand luggage.
- keep all spare batteries in separate fire safe bags. Don't use the bags that allow you to put multiple batteries in the one bag. If one of these batteries fails, a lithium fire will spread to any other battery that fire can reach.
- the biggest tip I can say, is to never travel with any lithium battery, fully charged to 100% You won't be using these batteries until you get to your final destination, so there's no need to to charge them beyond 70% This spare capacity gives the chemicals within the battery some wiggle room, which keeps them in a much more stable condition.
I was surprised recently when DHL refused to ship my gift to a different city. Wireless headphones alone have three batteries, and there is a rule of a maximum of two batteries per shipment. In this video, it is clearly explained why.
Halon was used in computer rooms as a fire suppressant. I was told that if that system went off to get out of there ASAP. That was in the early 90s. Halon has been on the way out and that's a good thing.
Thanks, this was actually helpful information for me. I was intending to carry, as a checked luggage, a large backup/ups, in the 500wh range.
As a Firefighter in NY Lithium Batteries are now our leading cause of structural fires. The city is flooded with poorly made cheap Chinese e-bikes, scooters etc. lithium Ion batteries an be Very dangerous
Like so many things it is about control of that potential. The bigggy is the Battery Management System. Some electronics that shut the battery down if it is full, nearly discharged or too hot. Some also stop charging if it is too cold. Bigger batteries should have them built in but if not then Oh Dear. The physical damage should be just with an external force but some are just not made strong enough. The solution, know your supplier.
Halon production has banned since it harms the ozone layer. Also Halon works differently than carbon dioxide. CO2 smothers the flame while Halon chemically inferers with the combustion process.
If you travel with lithium batteries, there are a few thing you can do to reduce the risk. Don't buy off brand battery packs. Quality batteries cost more and are far less likely to have a problem. If you don't need a device while in flight, take the charge down to 20% before boarding. Less power in the battery, less chance of fire if it shorts out. Taking it below 20% damages the battery so don't do it. If you don't need to recharge a device in flight, wait till you're on the ground before you do so. If you need to recharge it, the less charge the better and if possible no more than 80% as a full charge is a bit more risky. Battery failures in a properly designed device are the result of a flaw in the battery which isn't common but these procedures will reduce the impact should you have one.
Thermal runaway is in the structure of a battery. If you store any battery over a long time you will notice that the charge has decreased. There's some leakage current inside the battery leading to self discharging. As energy cannot vanish, it creates heat. Not much, but a little bit. However, leakage current increases over temperature. There's a temperature where the runaway starts. Normally, it's not a problem, but if the battery is damaged, it can lead to additional leakage current starting the runaway at lower temperatures.
Thank you very much for the safety recommendations!
So... No big red backpacks? Okay...
Last time I flew, I had my phone in my pocket and my iPad was turned all the way off & and unplugged in my CARRY ON in the overhead bin
Ive noticed theres some disregard for lithium batteries in checked bags as long as they are related to toiletries: think electronic toothbrush or shaver.
I have asked when checking bags and they said these are fine... despite having lithium batteries.
These removable/non-removable battery rules do not seem to be enforced as written. For example, most people would call a 100 Wh battery inside a laptop a non-removable battery, which would make it forbidden to carry-on. I have no idea how or why laptop batteries that require taking the laptop apart with a screwdriver to remove are considered "removable", other than bending the rules for the sake of practicality.
The vast majority of laptops are designed with this rule in mind, with batteries that come close, but don’t quite exceed the 100Wh threshold. Even large laptops that would have room for more battery capacity tend to stick to that limit.
For example, take the current 16” MacBook Pro. It’s advertised as 100Wh, but the small print says 99.6Wh.
This is why I prefer lithium ferro phosphate over lithium-ion polymer. The latter is famous for the runaway thermal, and is currently on the way to be replaced. LiFePO are much safer. Of course not as safe as no batteries, but the famous runaway problem with inextinguishable fire since it constantly reignites does not exist in LiFePO.
Nor yet standard for mobile devices due to the size and how much energy such a battery can store, but beyond that they are getting the standard, including cars. Mobiles will follow soon, since they have other nice properties too - except not yet that high density storage.
Not all lithium batteries are so dangerous. LiFePO4 batteries won’t thermally run away or explode. It’s very annoying that they are classified the same general way meaning I can’t carry my portable power station on a plane.
If they're so much safer, why aren't LiFePO4 batteries used in everything?
@@InventorZahran They are bigger and heavier and have a smaller operating temperature range.
@@InventorZahran great question actually. They’re not as well suited for intense loads. They’re more for longevity and stability. For their capacity, they are pretty light. But for sheer power output they’re worse than most types.
Most people use them for RV and home back up power. Solar power systems and such. I have a power bank built into a backpack that’s about 380wh (nearly 4 times the limit) I use for working weekends as a videographer to keep my phone, cameras, and lights charged.
You could stab a spike straight through my entire battery pack and it wouldn’t catch fire. The little 17wh camera batteries (about the same as an iPhone) are significantly more dangerous.
I fly with the cameras themselves all the time. But yet I know damn well if I brought that backpack through TSA I’d be in the interrogation room immediately lol.
It’s just because airlines and TSA don’t really have any incentive to remake their policies to accept this one type of battery, test all these claims themselves to verify, and then retrain all their people to know exactly which “types” of lithium batteries are allowed. It’s far easier and more efficient to just limit to the least acceptable one. Basically they can’t be bothered