I spent many hours investigating the Z axis component of vibration. The cause is from the center of gravity of the print head being higher than the cross member, mainly from the weight of the extruder motor, which in turn caused torsional flex in the cross member during y accelerations. I offset this by adding weight to the print head below the cross member. Once I found the correct balancing weight, the Z component of vibration went away and the test prints running at 200 mm/sec with 4300 accelerations are now practically flawless.
Wow! This sounds like a fantastic analysis. I’d love to know more. I take it you observed similar shaper results? Are you running Klipper on your Troodon? What did you use for a counterweight and how did you secure it?
@@ygk3d I did get similar shaper results as you have shown in the video. By moving the accelerometer to various points on the print head, I was able to build a visual of the Z movement to figure out it was rotation about the cross member. I attached a piece of steel (approx 50x30x19mm) to the lower left rear of the print head by using the screw in the side. It took a lot of trial and error to get the correct weight. I am running Klipper on my Troodon 2. I also changed the control board to the M8P with the CB1. I documented the wiring fairly well and can share it if you are interested,
@@archiejacobs6741 Super impressed! Great thinking. I wonder if this is a universal flaw with the design? Is there anything special about the Troodon carriage versus a stock Voron? My older Voron 2.4 has two MGN9 rails for the x axis, which should prevent the rotational degree of freedom. The Troodon uses a single MGN12. I just had a look at the Voron manual and it seems they've moved to a single MGN12 as well, so the Troodon design isn't unique in that way. Interesting about your control board switch. Did you keep the wiring upstream of the board and just cut and re-crimp all of the wires? What motivated your decision to switch?
@@ygk3d I wondered the same thing. I unfortunately do not have a Voron to do a similar analysis on. But this discovery has started me thinking about how to design a new print head with a correct center of gravity and possibly two rails that are in the same z plane. The board change started with the fact that I didn't know Kilpper could run on the stock board. After I saw your video, it was too late because I was already waste deep in the process. It did work out well anyway because I can use the accelerometer and keep the display working. I also have some 5160 drivers on the way because my next move is to run Motors A&B on 48V. I made a cable to go from the 40 pin connector to the individual connectors on the new board. This gave me a quick way back to stock if something didn't go as planned. I plan to post pictures on the Troodon reddit next week. Were you able to eliminate ringing in both X and Y directions. What acceleration were you able to achieve without ringing?
@@archiejacobs6741 No observable ringing in either X or Y based on my test tower print. I haven't changed the default Klipper acceleration of 3000 mm/s^2. According to my shaping results my max acceleration is 3100 mm/s^2 because of the recommended 2HUMP_EI shaper which has a lower acceleration cap to limit smoothing. If I could eliminate the Z component of resonance as you have done, that should allow me to use a simpler shaping function with a higher max acceleration,.
Thanks for making these! Considering getting the troodon for a larger format core xy to replace my cr10s pro v2. More of these videos! I think it will get more popular and you’ll find people looking for them.
I love how you're hacking your way to better (higher quality and faster) large format printing. The print quality certainly improved after Klipper's input shaping function was applied. I look forward to seeing some print quality tests at various speeds, hopefully in a future video in this excellent series.
I've been looking for a competent, fully enclosed, corexy printer that doesn't require the time of a voron, and isn't Bambu Labs (just because it is too early to know about their closed ecosystem approach). All the while keeping cost below $1500. This printer is intriguing, and didn't know about it until I found your channel. Instant likes and sub. I think you should consider going back to basics on the review side and show off the print quality for several models in as many filaments as you can reasonably do. Aurora Tech does a great job with that format, and I think folks would like to see this in action for more engineering filaments beyond PETG and PLA. Also, love the series focus on one printer instead of a one and done. Can't wait for the next one. Great work and thanks!!!
This was one of the more useful looks at input shaping that I've seen. Most don't seem to really talk about what the graphs mean, just that they exist, and that you can learn from them. Subscribing in hopes that you get us a follow-up video of diagnosing and resolving the issues you have on your Y axis, if you're able to figure them out.
Keep on going with these, please. I am looking to build and sell some proprietary assemblies and need the volume of the 2.0 and all the reliability and quality that I can get. I bought a pair of these, and if I start to see a bit of success I would rather have a half dozen identical bad-a$$ printers than a mishmash of units that I have to geek on all the time. I have not unboxed yet, but when I do, I expect to re-watch your videos a third or 4th time as I see them up. I am really interested in seeing some details on PrusaSlicer settings for the .6mm nozzle, PETG and ABS. The sooner I can estimate production capacity based on print time the better! Greedy me, but you wanted to know if people value what you are doing, I do.
I think the placement of the probe is causing the vibrations. You should try the upper two screws. I think you are measuring the vibrations of the plastic part where the fans are and not the nozzle. Ideally you would have the sensor at the nozzle but second best should be higher up where the hotend is mounted so I would try the upper two screws or get a nozzle mounted sensor.
Appreciate these videos keep them coming. I klippered my original troodon but after buying the troodon 2 and using reprap / the interface I'm not sure it's worth the effort and expense to upgrade yet.
Thanks for this! Would be nice to see more comparison prints from the Klipper-Troodon vs the Voron and compare both the speed and quality between the two. Still curious to find out if this machine is a good alternative to building your own Voron.
Would you consider attempting to put a StealthBurner on this thing? Super tempting to buy at this point because of time constraints. I'd love to build a 2.4 or Trident, but having my own business makes it really tough these days to spend a week+ building a printer.
I can't seem to retrieve the generated files. I use putty and login to my pi (ssh) but when I run the two commands I get file not found. I changed the "*" in the names to the proper name (which also took a while to figure out) Also how do I "switch" to sftp? Thanks. I also noticed that the hotend is really wobbly in y but stable in x for some reason.
Great series! This has now become a solid contender for me. I had a question, off topic regarding your Formbot Raptor printers. I recently picked up a second hand T-Rex 3 and was unable to find any information about implementing linear advance on the board. Running 2209 drivers on the V1.1 board. Do your Raptors run linear advance? If not, do you have any recommendations for acceleration and junction deviation to help with overshot corners? Thanks for your time!
I’m not sure if linear advance is enabled in the stock T-Rex firmware. It’s not in the Raptor firmware. You may need to download the firmware source, enable the feature, then re-flash.
Formbot has some spare parts available. There aren't too many plastic parts that are likely to need replacement but you could print the stock Voron ones in some cases, not all are the same.
Bro you are killing me. Great videos but when are we going to see actual footage of a speed benchy. Every video I see about this printer and no one will show it actually running!!!
I'll plan to show more print results in a future video. Cooling will be a limiting factor for a speed benchy, at least in PLA. This is a known limitation of the Afterburner toolhead.
You'll be limited by cooling at higher speeds if you're printing with PLA, but this machine could comfortably hit 150-200 mm/s outer wall speeds with a little tuning.
@@ygk3d thx for the reply. Inguess i have to wait for the stealthburner to become available for this printer so i can take advantage of the better cooling and put in a high flow hotend. Or maybe just save me all the hassle and go for a Falun V400. But then again. The v400 is hard to enclose for abs orinting. Tough choices ;)
Those prints look great, I can't see much difference between the klipper vs reprap results tho so I'm wondering if it's worth the extra effort to swap over?
I haven’t done extensive testing but I don’t think the print quality will be significantly different. The main advantages of switching to Klipper are the convenience features like automated input shaping, community macros, and support for third party accessories: Mosaic Palette, Beacon Surface Scanner, USB Webcam (RepRap supports cameras but no ports on the Troodon board). The effort is pretty minimal to make the change given that I’ve provided my configuration and instructions. The main consideration is the cost of a Pi. I’ll probably do some more head-to-head comparisons in a future video.
@@ygk3d Yea the cost is the main concern since there are basically none of the Pi's around only scalp priced 3bs which is kinda annoying, my troodon 2.0 will arrive next week and I'll probably end up getting Klipper running instead mostly because I want to run a 7 inch touch display for it to have easier onboard controls.
I’m in the US and it appears to be $100 cheaper to have it shipped to me from China vs. from a US warehouse. That sound right or will it change once they have my shipping address?
The list price from the US warehouse is $999 which includes shipping. The list price from the China warehouse is $899 but they'll charge you an additional $209 in shipping. So you're better off to order from the US warehouse.
Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Enjoying the videos and strongly leaning towards the troodon rather than a Bambu that I was really considering pulling the trigger on.
How have your XC1s held up and how does the print quality compare? I really like them, their plug and playability coupled with the AMS. Just seems to be a good amount of iffy prints that I’ve seen and seems like a fair number of reviewers have had mechanical failures of one kind or another with their machines. Also, it seems that shipping is free to us from us warehouse, unless they tack it on at the very last step.
I don’t have any first hand experience with the Trident. The Troodon is more comparable to the 2.4. The major difference is that the Troodon is mostly pre-assembled.
I spent many hours investigating the Z axis component of vibration. The cause is from the center of gravity of the print head being higher than the cross member, mainly from the weight of the extruder motor, which in turn caused torsional flex in the cross member during y accelerations. I offset this by adding weight to the print head below the cross member. Once I found the correct balancing weight, the Z component of vibration went away and the test prints running at 200 mm/sec with 4300 accelerations are now practically flawless.
Wow! This sounds like a fantastic analysis. I’d love to know more. I take it you observed similar shaper results? Are you running Klipper on your Troodon? What did you use for a counterweight and how did you secure it?
@@ygk3d I did get similar shaper results as you have shown in the video. By moving the accelerometer to various points on the print head, I was able to build a visual of the Z movement to figure out it was rotation about the cross member. I attached a piece of steel (approx 50x30x19mm) to the lower left rear of the print head by using the screw in the side. It took a lot of trial and error to get the correct weight. I am running Klipper on my Troodon 2. I also changed the control board to the M8P with the CB1. I documented the wiring fairly well and can share it if you are interested,
@@archiejacobs6741 Super impressed! Great thinking. I wonder if this is a universal flaw with the design? Is there anything special about the Troodon carriage versus a stock Voron? My older Voron 2.4 has two MGN9 rails for the x axis, which should prevent the rotational degree of freedom. The Troodon uses a single MGN12. I just had a look at the Voron manual and it seems they've moved to a single MGN12 as well, so the Troodon design isn't unique in that way.
Interesting about your control board switch. Did you keep the wiring upstream of the board and just cut and re-crimp all of the wires? What motivated your decision to switch?
@@ygk3d I wondered the same thing. I unfortunately do not have a Voron to do a similar analysis on. But this discovery has started me thinking about how to design a new print head with a correct center of gravity and possibly two rails that are in the same z plane.
The board change started with the fact that I didn't know Kilpper could run on the stock board. After I saw your video, it was too late because I was already waste deep in the process. It did work out well anyway because I can use the accelerometer and keep the display working. I also have some 5160 drivers on the way because my next move is to run Motors A&B on 48V. I made a cable to go from the 40 pin connector to the individual connectors on the new board. This gave me a quick way back to stock if something didn't go as planned. I plan to post pictures on the Troodon reddit next week.
Were you able to eliminate ringing in both X and Y directions. What acceleration were you able to achieve without ringing?
@@archiejacobs6741 No observable ringing in either X or Y based on my test tower print. I haven't changed the default Klipper acceleration of 3000 mm/s^2. According to my shaping results my max acceleration is 3100 mm/s^2 because of the recommended 2HUMP_EI shaper which has a lower acceleration cap to limit smoothing. If I could eliminate the Z component of resonance as you have done, that should allow me to use a simpler shaping function with a higher max acceleration,.
Great breakdown of what input shaping is and how to quickly implement it in to this printer. Really liking this Troodon series.
Appreciate your series on this printer, I am excited to get Input Shaping dialed in for this printer!
Thanks for making these! Considering getting the troodon for a larger format core xy to replace my cr10s pro v2.
More of these videos! I think it will get more popular and you’ll find people looking for them.
I love how you're hacking your way to better (higher quality and faster) large format printing. The print quality certainly improved after Klipper's input shaping function was applied. I look forward to seeing some print quality tests at various speeds, hopefully in a future video in this excellent series.
I've been looking for a competent, fully enclosed, corexy printer that doesn't require the time of a voron, and isn't Bambu Labs (just because it is too early to know about their closed ecosystem approach). All the while keeping cost below $1500. This printer is intriguing, and didn't know about it until I found your channel. Instant likes and sub. I think you should consider going back to basics on the review side and show off the print quality for several models in as many filaments as you can reasonably do. Aurora Tech does a great job with that format, and I think folks would like to see this in action for more engineering filaments beyond PETG and PLA. Also, love the series focus on one printer instead of a one and done. Can't wait for the next one. Great work and thanks!!!
Thanks! Great suggestions.
This was one of the more useful looks at input shaping that I've seen. Most don't seem to really talk about what the graphs mean, just that they exist, and that you can learn from them. Subscribing in hopes that you get us a follow-up video of diagnosing and resolving the issues you have on your Y axis, if you're able to figure them out.
Great video.
Good walk through of the process 👍
Thanks for sharing your expirences with All of us 👍😃
Keep on going with these, please. I am looking to build and sell some proprietary assemblies and need the volume of the 2.0 and all the reliability and quality that I can get. I bought a pair of these, and if I start to see a bit of success I would rather have a half dozen identical bad-a$$ printers than a mishmash of units that I have to geek on all the time. I have not unboxed yet, but when I do, I expect to re-watch your videos a third or 4th time as I see them up. I am really interested in seeing some details on PrusaSlicer settings for the .6mm nozzle, PETG and ABS. The sooner I can estimate production capacity based on print time the better! Greedy me, but you wanted to know if people value what you are doing, I do.
Thanks so much for your comment and your feedback! Comments like this motivate me to keep going!
I think the placement of the probe is causing the vibrations. You should try the upper two screws. I think you are measuring the vibrations of the plastic part where the fans are and not the nozzle. Ideally you would have the sensor at the nozzle but second best should be higher up where the hotend is mounted so I would try the upper two screws or get a nozzle mounted sensor.
Appreciate these videos keep them coming. I klippered my original troodon but after buying the troodon 2 and using reprap / the interface I'm not sure it's worth the effort and expense to upgrade yet.
That was my thought initially but in the end up happy with the quality of life improvements Klipper has provided.
Thanks for this! Would be nice to see more comparison prints from the Klipper-Troodon vs the Voron and compare both the speed and quality between the two.
Still curious to find out if this machine is a good alternative to building your own Voron.
Hi, thank you for another great vidéo on this machine, now i Can sureley Switch on the klipper !
Good job! Subscribed!
Would you consider attempting to put a StealthBurner on this thing? Super tempting to buy at this point because of time constraints. I'd love to build a 2.4 or Trident, but having my own business makes it really tough these days to spend a week+ building a printer.
Vivedino is coming out with a Stealthburner upgrade kit for this printer that I'll likely get.
I can't seem to retrieve the generated files. I use putty and login to my pi (ssh) but when I run the two commands I get file not found. I changed the "*" in the names to the proper name (which also took a while to figure out) Also how do I "switch" to sftp? Thanks. I also noticed that the hotend is really wobbly in y but stable in x for some reason.
Great series! This has now become a solid contender for me. I had a question, off topic regarding your Formbot Raptor printers. I recently picked up a second hand T-Rex 3 and was unable to find any information about implementing linear advance on the board. Running 2209 drivers on the V1.1 board. Do your Raptors run linear advance? If not, do you have any recommendations for acceleration and junction deviation to help with overshot corners? Thanks for your time!
I’m not sure if linear advance is enabled in the stock T-Rex firmware. It’s not in the Raptor firmware. You may need to download the firmware source, enable the feature, then re-flash.
Great series. Was just wondering if
There are replacement parts available? Or could you just print your own and ifso are there files to do so?
Formbot has some spare parts available. There aren't too many plastic parts that are likely to need replacement but you could print the stock Voron ones in some cases, not all are the same.
Single start to end guide for this printer would be nice. Considering buying a troodon 2.0
I have a pretty comprehensive video series on it (13 parts). Should tell you most of what you need to know 😊
Bro you are killing me. Great videos but when are we going to see actual footage of a speed benchy. Every video I see about this printer and no one will show it actually running!!!
I'll plan to show more print results in a future video. Cooling will be a limiting factor for a speed benchy, at least in PLA. This is a known limitation of the Afterburner toolhead.
What speeds can this oronter with klipper installed print at without loosong quality?
You'll be limited by cooling at higher speeds if you're printing with PLA, but this machine could comfortably hit 150-200 mm/s outer wall speeds with a little tuning.
@@ygk3d thx for the reply. Inguess i have to wait for the stealthburner to become available for this printer so i can take advantage of the better cooling and put in a high flow hotend. Or maybe just save me all the hassle and go for a Falun V400. But then again. The v400 is hard to enclose for abs orinting. Tough choices ;)
Is it possible to mount two extruders on this duet clone board?
The Troodon 2.0 uses a custom Octopus X7 control board, not a Duet clone. There would not be enough ports on this board to add a second extruder.
@@ygk3d thanks!
Those prints look great, I can't see much difference between the klipper vs reprap results tho so I'm wondering if it's worth the extra effort to swap over?
I haven’t done extensive testing but I don’t think the print quality will be significantly different. The main advantages of switching to Klipper are the convenience features like automated input shaping, community macros, and support for third party accessories: Mosaic Palette, Beacon Surface Scanner, USB Webcam (RepRap supports cameras but no ports on the Troodon board). The effort is pretty minimal to make the change given that I’ve provided my configuration and instructions. The main consideration is the cost of a Pi. I’ll probably do some more head-to-head comparisons in a future video.
@@ygk3d Yea the cost is the main concern since there are basically none of the Pi's around only scalp priced 3bs which is kinda annoying, my troodon 2.0 will arrive next week and I'll probably end up getting Klipper running instead mostly because I want to run a 7 inch touch display for it to have easier onboard controls.
@@ygk3d As i commented that i won a 3b for 35 euros lol
I’m in the US and it appears to be $100 cheaper to have it shipped to me from China vs. from a US warehouse. That sound right or will it change once they have my shipping address?
The list price from the US warehouse is $999 which includes shipping. The list price from the China warehouse is $899 but they'll charge you an additional $209 in shipping. So you're better off to order from the US warehouse.
Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Enjoying the videos and strongly leaning towards the troodon rather than a Bambu that I was really considering pulling the trigger on.
@@guycobb3251 No worries. I have a few Bambu’s (X1C) and love them. Both good options but better bang for your buck with the Troodon in my opinion.
How have your XC1s held up and how does the print quality compare? I really like them, their plug and playability coupled with the AMS. Just seems to be a good amount of iffy prints that I’ve seen and seems like a fair number of reviewers have had mechanical failures of one kind or another with their machines.
Also, it seems that shipping is free to us from us warehouse, unless they tack it on at the very last step.
Any benefit to swapping to the octopus board users in a standard Voron? I see myself running klipper.
Any thoughts on the Trident vs a Troodon 2.0?
I don’t have any first hand experience with the Trident. The Troodon is more comparable to the 2.4. The major difference is that the Troodon is mostly pre-assembled.