I'm not following a strict plan currently, I hadn't planned to get an indoor trainer for the winter here in Europe but temptation got the better of me and I joined Zwift. Damn its addictive, it really appeals to my weaknesses as I'm a long distance rider rather than doing crits but my ftp has increased by 25 watts in a month. I really need to improve my sprints as I'm outputting 3.5w/kg average over an hour but lack the power to really chase. I'm trying to do zone 2 every other ride but occasionally Ive seen there's a crit and just gone for it. When I first joined I accidently went on one of the climbing tour rides straight after a crit and was bonked by the top. All the matters really is to enjoy it if its only a hobby. After christmas some deadlines have passed and I'll start a more focused program, perhaps I'll try a polarized regime.
Yes, that’s how all Norwegian cross country skiers have been training since the seventies. I tried a lot of different cycling apps (including Zwift) programs and found that ever leads to overtraining. It’s too much interval and threshold. Remember that professional athletes don’t have a day job and many of them sleep 10-12 hours a day for restitution. And they are 25 years old. I made the most gain the year I was doing very slow miles for 3-4 hours several times a week. What zone 2 does is making your body much more oxygen efficient using it as energy. It basically raises your ceiling for when glycogen expenditure happens. That is less stress on your body and muscle. So your zone two level will increase. I think why most apps don’t have polarized training is because it’s quite simple and boring. Many people also think you haven’t worked out if you’re not sore or sweating. If you’re doing polarized training right you should feel like you could do a new zone two session the next day too.
Dylan Johnson is my main go-to for fitness/training advice because his information is science-based, rather than opinion or anecdotal. Although his racing pedigree speaks to the fact the information he researches is in fact effective. I haven't done sweat spot training in two years since watching Dylan's videos. All 80/20 polarized for me. Being that I'm able to ride 10-12 hours a week, I need to be able to hit my weekly training load without burning out half way through the week.
I also highly recommend you listen to the Empirical Cycling Podcast. If you want the most scientifically possible explanation (even with chemistry lol), there's no other place better.
I am a B cat rider on Zwift and age 53. Having never followed a strict trading plan I decided to follow Dylan’s annual plan…rest, weights, endurance and race. Currently coming to the end of weight period and I feel really strong. Let’s see how it goes but with three teenage boys joining in it is great fun which is what it should be about really.
I think the key to polarized is being able to commit a minimum of 8-10 hours a week to riding. When you get below that, 20% just isn’t enough stimulus for adaptation and low volume sweet spot plans are going to be more effective.
I guess the other part of this, if you can't prioritize 8 hours a week to riding, maybe you shouldn't be 'training'. It's probably more effective to just go out and enjoy riding with the limited time you have, not worrying about any of this stuff.
@@andrewedwards2838 I guess you will have to decide whether "training" as an amateur who will likely never be a pro (and don't be disappointed about that) is something you enjoy. Do you like showing up to amateur races and meeting new people, socializing, or do you feel bad if you got 2nd place? Life is a journey.
@@terryjenner2156 Yeah, exactly. Define your priorities. Figure out how to get there. Wanna go pro? Gonna need to put some time in on the bike. Eight hours is laughable. Wanna be the best amateur in your local race? Still need to put time in on the bike, maybe less depending on the scene. Training plan is worth it. Eight hours may be about right, probably low end. Wanna hang out with friends and have fun? Don't need nearly so much time. Definitely don't need a training plan. Just go have fun.
According to Seiler, it's not 80% of the time. It's 80% of the sessions. So, in a 10-day period, there are two HIGH INTENSITY days within it (aka ~3 hard sessions approximately every 2 weeks or 6 hard sessions per month). If you do it by time, you'll likely end up with too many "hot" sessions.
I switched to polarized training three years ago at the age of 45 and I haven't looked back. No more burnout and fatigue from overtraining, eye-popping fitness gains and as @SeeSmithTV says, no more stress and feelings of dread when looking at my training calendar. Case in point: earlier this year after 8 weeks with very little time on the bike and a gnarly case of Covid, my FTP had dropped to around 295 from 330 or 340. I started the Dylan Johnson Base Training plan in early January. My FTP jumped up to 310 after 4 weeks. Then up to around 325 at the end of the next 4-week block and 345 or so by the end of the 12-week program. No fatigue whatsoever and I was able to finish every workout (a few by the skin of my teeth haha). I know FTP doesn't tell the whole story, but those are some pretty startling fitness gains!
Not that one can really test it out in a reasonable way, but you had a big break and FTP increases when you started back up. Would you have gotten similar gains with pretty much any plan or even no plan at all?
Appreciate hearing your perspective. I’m 62, so the thought of all that threshold training sounds exhausting. I just need to focus on maxing out 2xweek. Thanks for the video. Great job!
I am currently using their AI adaptive plan...I set it up as a masters plan with just 3 workouts. I manually set all the workouts to 90min, as I do them on the trainer. Then I just ad on my 5-6h of z2 riding...and I have a plan with 2 hard days and the rest is only Z2 riding. The AI then adjusts those 2 hard days accordingly to how I am doing. That is how I worked around the system that I have a polarised adaptive plan :)
What's the difference between what you are saying and their polarized plan? This plan also has 6 workouts, 2 threshold and 4 zone 2, 8 hours per week. Seems really balanced.
@@jonhalda Hi the difference is that AI adaptive program structures all your training based on your events and it adapts the workouts regarding how you have completed them. In my case it planed out all the training for 12 months, with all tapers for the events, and in my case this approach works well.
@user-ur4lv4zh4h I do log them and it adjusts the interval sessions if I do to much TSS... Of course you can override the red light green light if you know you are going to recover. Eventually the system learns that you are able to do more TSS in a week, so It doesn't show you yellow and red days so often. It works great for me...
I can only know my own experience, but I suspect that the key is to train adaptability, relying only on SS or polarized will cause an adaptation to that kind of work. Changing strategies while watching for individual markers of overtraining. is probably better.
As an old curmudgeon, I don't think that TRs sweetspot plans nor 'Polarized' are ideal for most cyclists. There's a who lot of other work that is useful for cyclists that don't fall into either: tempo has a place, high torque / low cadence has a place, over/unders have a place and and super useful for most cyclists. I wonder what you think about an experiment: Take TR low volume plans, drop one of the workouts (2 intensity sessions, keep the long one) and fill in the rest of your week with aerobic endurance / z2 rides. You'll get some sweetspot work, some threshold work, some over / unders from their base programs, and depending on which build, you'll get threshold,over/unders, suprathreshold, vo2max, etc. but only 2xweek and get the volume and peripheral aerobic adaptations from filling in with z2 rides.
I think when you touch on training couple with everyday life you hit the point exactly. Many of these training plans out there try to train you like you are a pro who has tons of extra time. If you are single, no family, and no other commitments, with a total focus on high level racing... well maybe things might be different, but most of us don't have that kind of life. In the end, Dylan's analysis, based on science, makes sense and it goes well with the kind of training that most of us can fit in. And it can be scaled and adapted. The interesting thing is that Dylan is always learning and making tweaks to his training. No one thing works well all the time for everyone. Listening to your body, looking at your lifestyle, and adjusting to fit needs is key. As someone who has trained others (rowing) I can say that polarized training makes a lot of sense, and the best training plan adapts to the needs of the athlete.
SST is a good block for a beginner - their FTP is probably in the 200s and the riding at anything above 200w is going to be progression to a higher FTP. After doing this for a while it becomes harder to get adaptation from just that alone... and the trap would be to just ride more and more low Z4 as it wouldn't bring any benefit.
I also got a laugh with the recent changes in TR - renaming of some SST rides to Endurance ride - so to better provide some expectations that the ride is performed in a lower intensity (proving Dylan Johnson correct, that they see it was misleading now)
I've been doing the XC MTB High Volume plan with TR, and it seems to be polarised. The great thing about TR is the people behind it are like Dylan (constantly looking at the latest scientific evidence), and constantly adapting their programs.
Polarized is definitely the way to go if you practice another sport on the side. I lift weights and ride on the track so polarized allows me to use Z2 work as recovery rides. It's effective work that doesn't add fatigue and helps recover for the next session.
Yes... it works... TR training plans also work. I've also gone backwards on polarized training and had a reduction in FTP and performance. I've also burned out using TR's sweet spot programs. DJ's critique was a bit over simplified. The proper stimulus, fueled appropriately given the necessary amount of rest will achieve results. Each rider has to develop an understanding of their body and where they are physically. If you outsource this learning to something that isn't taking into account your entire life, then it is you is making the mistake.... not the app, training plan or coach.
Yeah. This. I've been doing the thing for 10 years now, so i think i start to grasp the long term view. At start me polarized worked well as it helped me to stay away burnouts and just being consistent was the key. With tempo/sweetspot one can just grind it away with being already tired. I did bury myself into quite a hole couple times. Z5 in particular is impossible without proper rest. As years pass training has to become smarter and more individualized. Dylan Johnson was able to improve his FTP just by training 30hours a week for a month, mostly at low Z2. For me that kind of approach just doesn't work. I've trained 3 months 20 hours a week, with nothing huge to show for, not even noted improvement in aerobic threshold (which was quite a bummer). Not saying that it was in vain, i did after all have huge PR in Z5 later on after dedicating couple months to it... Only to miserably fail at Zwift Academy's Fatigue Fighter (demanding FTP-workout). So for me everything has to be very specific. And that's the problem with DJ's science takes. People thinks that science has the ultimate answers... Just no, the science has to be implemented into individuals and any coach worth their salt will be open to using sweetspot as tool, even doing huge volumes of it if athlete can take it. I dont' know how TR has improved when they started to introduce their adaptive training. Which seems huge improvement to their earlier method, but is it willing to tell person that the person is going to have bad 6 months when they see no improvement in their Ramp Test in favor to build their base? Or does it chase short term goals just as before, just being bit more smart about it.
@@Second247 Good question. No, their AI dedication doesn't have any predictive capabilities (yet). It takes into account your previous rides and also you need to be honest about how the workout was when filling out the post ride survey for the AI to be most effective. I'm not sponsored by TrainerRoad and I don't work for them, but would love to get a peek behind the curtain and see what they are working on for future updates.
Polarized makes even more sense when people cross-train, either weight lifting, xc ski, or do some sort of martial art like BJJ during their week. Dropping from 2 hard interval days to just one might also make sense.
Good video. Myself I like to do much indoorbike races , and I guess that is treshold, but I am putting zone1+2 days inbetween. I want to not exceed two highzone days a week, and to get in at least two lowzonedays, and maybe 3 or 4 lowzones.
Ive tried both, and I think it depends primarily on your overall volume. In my experience, if you are training low volume you will probably see more gains doing more than 2 interval or hard sessions (you could also throw a 1h threshold session) per week. However, the higher in volume I go the less hard sessions and more zone 2 work I need to do so that I do not burn out or get injured.
Great video, enjoyed your thoughts. Yes, I have been doing more polarized workouts as of late. End of 2022 race season, left me completely burned out, made some changes into '23, and now on the indoor trainer. So far so good.
I'm very happy you've tried it out and have gotten positive results. I feel like I've plateaued in cycling and your video gives me great hope that I can get over it with polarized plan.
Thanks! Definitely give it a try and see how it goes. Training is just one element of bike riding though man. Honestly, what matters most is that we get out there for exercise and enjoy ourselves.
Hi Ian. I’m glad that you found it helpful! Is there anything else you want to know about as beginner? I’m trying to help folks and make this sport more welcoming. It would be cool to hear your feedback and if possible make a video around it. Happy New Year!
I’ll take a sweet spot or threshold workout over a 3-hour zone 2 ride any day indoors. I wonder if polarization makes more sense for individuals who have already reached a certain fitness level, like yourself.
Man, I agree. A 3 hour zone 2 ride indoors would be brutal! Lol. If you have TrainerRoad, I think the plan is worth giving a shot. Most of the endurance rides they assigned were 1.5 hours which is much more manageable indoors. I just chose to go over the assigned amount. I tend to go longer on those days and do some exploring.
@@SeeSmithTV yeah buddy I do have trainerroad, just started it 2 weeks ago and the workouts are perfect so far. It's mid-level so I should be able to manage, time will tell. My ftp is 320 outdoors but indoor I'm at 307, do you test lower indoors as well?
@@MrAttilaabri Nice! Well, historically I've only tested outdoors once (years ago). I just use the trainer for FTP tests because it's been the easiest. No cars, no stop lights, etc. Can just lock in and dig deep.
Thank you for sharing. I am interested in long-term polarized training, lasting at least 6 months. If you are still engaging in polarized training, could you please create a follow-up video?
@@BrianAThomas I actually just finished a block of training on trainerroad and will be including my thoughts on that new feature and some others. I should have it up within the next couple of weeks.
I think you can't just always do one method. If you have done sweet spot for a few seasons it is likely that any other legitimate training method that isn't sweet spot will give you a boost. Your points about how to fit training into real life are legit, and this is a consideration for any training plan. I plan to try a polarized plan in the upcoming year.
Having done TR for two years (sweet spot training) and now having a personal coach (polarized training)....I think the biggest difference is time commitment, is this science - no - but this is the internet and this is my two cents. If you have less than 10hours a week to train, sweet spot training might be ideal If you have 10+hours a week to train, polarized training might be ideal
If you have the luxury of living near flat roads and can ride during good lighting, then polarized plans are a lot easier to stick to. If you live in hilly terrain and it gets dark/wet before you start training, you have your work cut out for you as you'll likely opt for the trainer and I can say, after doing both polarised and traditional plans indoors, it's not the workouts that are hard, it's the overall commitment to that level of boredom - especially if you're someone who rides for the endorphins. I took all this into consideration when deciding that I need sweet spot training in my programme or else I won't stick to the programme and that's far more important than what training approach I'm using.
Dylan Johnson's video came out before trainer road added adaptive training and changed around lots of their workouts because the data from adaptive training showed many became over trained
It is said "there is noting new under the sun" and 80/20, err Polarized Training, is an example. While I tend to not follow a plan so may ride hard too often it is because I just enjoy training and just ride. That said I have run for 50+ years and ridden for 40+ and 80/20 is just what works and is what has been around forever. In the running world you can look up Arthur Lydiard and 80/20 is the way to go. Will you get fast gains - likely not - but for those seeking fun and long term health and speed gains 80/20 (Polarized Training) is the way to go.
Really good insights, most videos I’ve seen have only focused on the “performance improvement” aspect of training plans, but I had not thought of the mental/psychological stress impacts of the two approaches like you brought up-that’s maybe even more crucial especially for most of us that don’t race professionally 😄. I bet the lower mental stress too also helps drive better recovery as well!
+100% on dropping from 3-4days intensity to 2/week. My 1min,5min,ftp all stayed the same, but I could reach them much more reliably. 4days meant many days I couldn’t reach target power and sometimes dreaded sessions. Seems I’m way too old (57) to thrash myself every day.
Well, that makes two of us. I'm mid 30's and feel the exact same way as you lol. There were some weeks during SS/Threshold training where I simply couldn't complete workouts.
I've tried TR Polarized as well. And I was sooooo unhappy - not because of results and gains (perhaps I had _some_ gains after months of stagnation) but riding Z2 is so boring and un-rewarding. Smashing intensity workouts is (to me) much more rewarding and gives a chance to decompress from my work/life stress. Having said that - TrainerRoad has just introduced so called "Masters Plan". Seems like something between Polarized and SS training - with two intensity workouts / week. As I'm in my late 40's, started this (I'm in the 2nd week of this). Cheers 👍
I hear you on the Zone 2 rides being boring. Have you tried making an adventure out of a zone 2 workout? Maybe ride to a new destination with some friends, somewhere you haven’t been. I know depending on the area that you live in this can be easier said than done. But just offering up an idea. Enjoy the masters plan. I’ll be checking that out soon!
I mean to each their own. I’ve done both plans and experienced positive results. I think the key is to find what works for you, your goals, your body and your race schedule.
Glad you saw some results though I think you will need to continue on to actually see the big gains. I bought Dylan's plan this time last year and over 9 months raised my FTP 74 Watts! Well above what I was even hoping for. I just started again this year after some time off and still feel better than I have in years. I don't expect that big of a bump this year but I don't see any reason I can't gain another 30 or maybe even 40 Watts this year. Polarized works 🙂
I agree, although Dylan I suppose on his review awhile back... never chose "alternates" options... depending on person and outside stressors. Love him, but... the review was lacking all options that TR offers, depending how you feel. I personally am over 50, and feel crippled after my job, so need to spin before work. I recently chose the "Masters" option on TrainerRoad and I'm unsure if its similar to Polarized, but.... not only did I go up to mid volume, High volume looks just as fun in the "Masters" options !!! @@SeeSmithTV
The music was almost louder than your voice. Fyi. As far as polarized training goes, I tried it, but it requires more hours on the bike than I'm able to give. I'm glad it works for you though, congratulations on the fitness gains!
Ah, no. Thanks for that feedback. Throughout the video or during the second half? I will look back at the volume levels in my software to adjust for next time. And yea, everyone needs to find what works best for them. What matters most is that we’re on the bike!🙌🏿
Good video! You're right, TR did change a lot after Dylan's video. I personally found that their plans got too hard for me to manage, but then it wasn't that bad as I could just dial back the workout if it got too much. Like you though, with Trainerroad I saw the biggest increase in FTP I've ever had. I think I went from around 230 watts all the way up to 300! The strongest I've ever been. However, it did take a lot of dedication, but one thing TR is really good at is the whole scheduling thing. If I could afford to use it again, I would I think. Too many subscriptions!
I've always rode without a heart rate monitor or power meter and never did structured training till a month ago when I got a heart rate monitor. Watched a lot of Dylan, Inigo and Stephen Seiler vids and decided to try it. I understand why I've been burning out now. I've been riding tempo and threshold most of the time. Pushing above threshold on most climbs. Now I'm doing two interval days a week and three zone 2 rides. Wahoo system has the top end of my z2 at %81 so I'm riding a bit under that. Have to say it is a lot less burn out. I feel a lot better, not as stressed and I'm enjoying the bike more. I'm seeing my pace increase gradually at the same heart rate. Looking forward to my next Half Monty to see if that translates to an actual FTP increase.
Brick by brick…just keep putting those training days in and the fitness will come. Just try to always make sure you’re enjoying yourself too! Happy to hear that you’re experiencing less burnout.
the problem with polarized training is that all your riding buddies want to go out and kill Phil Maffetone on every ride, yet I would like to build up my base miles and make hard riding, easier...Or get faster, or feel like the 4 percent grade is easy and go from there. If you enjoy group rides, then it depends upon the group. The higher level group rides sometimes become ad hoc races owing to personal ego. Which was my original thought.
I don't think that polarized training has any zone 1 besides warmups and cooldowns. It's pretty clear. Zone 2 for 80% of the time and Zone 5 for 20%. Much harder than it seems like.
I used TrainerRoad for years. Absolutely had positive gains until the last couple of years when I hit a plateau and couldn’t get off. I then switched to polarized and have had big gains since without near the burnout or fatigue (mental and physical). Polarized is much more enjoyable for me and balances really well with life.
@@jean-frederickjacques6780 I grabbed a polarized training plan from Training Peaks and did that outdoors during the summer. I had 8% gain in power and my mind/body was so refreshed compared to what I had previously been doing that got me stuck on that plateau. I like the TR software platform and you can def have gains but for me I just got burned out on sweet spot. I will probably send my workouts to TR if I have to do them indoors on a trainer when it's too cold to ride outdoors.
If it wasn't for Dylan's videos I would have quit a long time ago. My methods simply were not working. Going too fast and hard all the time really made me hate the sport. After watching his videos and putting his techniques from paper to the gym and bike, I love the sport all over again. I can't thank Dylan enough for sharing his knowledge. Just follow his advice and the sport will be so much more rewarding. 👍 Oh, don't listen to that backward hat Dylan guy. He's funny but he's cra cra!! 😂
I did a 5 month block of Pol. training on TR in the spring. Below you can see what I had to say about my experience on the TR forum. It is from 2 comments. I could not copy the pictures of the ftp gain so they are in text With 8-10 hours of riding and doing 2 hard work out in 2/3 of the weeks and 1 hard the rest the Pol. plans did not do anything for me. I would probably have gained more by changing some of the days from z2 to tempo or SS. My personal experience with Pol. plans. Regarding FTP they have done nothing spectacular. Please see the 4-month comparison below. Just for the record. I never had the feeling I overperformed on the ramp test. More the opposite. I did mid-volume back in 2020-2021 and low volume Pol plan with a lot of added Z2 riding this spring. The TSS is up by about 30 on the 6 Wk. avg in the Pol. plans old school plans Nov 7, 2020, ftp 252 W- Mar 16 2021, ftp 275 W POL Plan Jan 16 2023, ftp 263 W - jun 4 2023, ftp 268 W What about sustained power for a longer interval? I do not know as 16 min. intervals were not really part of the old workouts I did. The only thing I see that I gained from the Pol plans is more time on the bike. With the added Z2, and also an extra hard day added every second week, I do between 8-10 hours a week (TSS between 400-600). That is not enough riding for the Pol. plan to work for me.
There is no debate. The creators of both periodization and polarization agree you need both. You need a base and a race training plan. Neither plan will fully work for all cycling disciplines. A mixture of both is likely optimal
I thought polarized generally is 80% of the volume in zone 2 and not zone 1? Did you increase your overall volume during polarized training block vs trainer road's more intense plan? Think that's supposed to be the caveat
@@ryankeels4661 it is, but there is a 3-zone model and a 5-zone model that you can train from. I think Dylan has a video up on the differences. I haven’t done one on the differences (yet). My volume for this was about the same. I tend to do about 11-15 hrs/week. Which I realize is still more time than a lot of people can commit to the bike, especially if they have a family. If you’re short on training time, I’d probably go with TR’s sweet spot plan and do intensity over the volume.
Hi. I agree with all you said, but if we talk straight watts, you cannot claim having increased your FTP. Two watts, if I got it well, is waaay inside the margin error or your power meter, considering your massive FTP. Still, continue the hard work. And we have to not forget that this measure don't reflet your ability to ride longer rides with better power, which you probably improved
Great video! I think Dylan’s presentation contained a lot of disinformation. He seemed to equate “Intervals” with “Intense” a lot. I don’t see how sub ftp intervals can be described as “intense”. I thought you should be able to hold FTP for 1 hour like a TT? So sessions with intervals close, at, or slightly above should be ok. Off course, this assumes that the FTP level is accurate, perhaps folks have it set too high.
Last 3yrs iirc. TR/SS training teases or entices you with the quick Gains but you will burn up. It ends up being that your hard days are not hard enough and they’re too many or have brought your easy ones up into mediocre to the point where then you’re already almost completely mediocre all the time, tired, and disillusioned with inabilities to finish workouts which will come. 1st hand knowledge. You answered the question for yourself before doing the workout simply with your mindset looking at the week ahead. Even the low volume plans have way too much intensity even if you were absolutely smart and take the off days or non-work out days completely easy and not doing any bunch rides or intensity of your own. It’s still too much. They will say that they had the traditional plans before, but really it was just another way of saying old ways of euro thinking - long slogs that zap your soul. -U10
they are completely different styles of training which one should ask which one would work best for me? What are the demands of my events? How do I like to train (motivation).. there's no right or wrong. I think Dylan and TR are meh at best..
Lots of talk about FTP like it's the be all end all, it isn't! The thing is though, it's a measurable metric for most people and people are happy when the number goes up regardless of anything else and TR know this! FTP sells, and TR is selling!
So it's always been known that people that can ride 6 days a week and be on high volume polarized is very effective. However most of us don't have that luxury and doing easy ride for 1 hour is not going to cut it. So for you I can see how this is a great way to approach it but unfortunately majority of us may only have 6 to 8 hours a week to train so sweet spot it is with few endurance rides which with updated TrainerRoad they now have Sunday as endurance along with Wednesday and 2 sweet spot and 1 trashold day for total of 7 hours for me.
You have to do what is best for you, your body, your schedule. I have a video on my experience with sweet spot training as well. I just want to share my experiences with people, so in the end they can make an educated decision on whats best for them. Regardless if they use Trainerroad or not. I really just want to motivate more people to get on bikes, get the legs moving and get some exercise in.
Both Zwift and Trainer Roads programs are too intense and leads to burnout. They are good for final weeks leading up to season start, but I haven’t yet been able to complete a longer one. I’m not a professional so I can’t sleep 10 hours a day and spend the rest of the day relaxing after workouts.
Try Trainerroad’s polarized plan if you haven’t already. I have experienced burnout with their plans before and this plan was a welcomed change. Zwift training plans are notoriously bad. BUT, I do enjoy racing on their platform.
@@SeeSmithTV I am using a PM too but the Zones are all over the place for me and totally not accurate to any model. If I take 75% of my FTP I end up at 2,3w/kg - if I ride at that pace i end up at 80% of my max HR average over a 1h session. So which one should I care for now HR or power?
I liked the video. I liked the part at the end when you say that bike riding is suposed to be fun. and the stufff about spending time with friends. @@SeeSmithTV
This type of training is actually nothing new. I was racing like 25 years ago and we had exactly same training plans. And not only us, I won't be surprised, if someone find out, that even 100 years ago were riders doing similiar stuff.
Interesting video, but note that polarized training relates to the number of sessions rather than time - ie 80% of sessions are at low intensity. Based upon time, it tends to be nearer to 90-95%.
I get it and understand where you are coming from. However, you have to want to make the time. Evaluate your current training plan and ask why you would want to leave the benefits of riding in zone 2 on the table. Be precise with your training and commit to maximizing time in a training zone. The quality of the rider matters more than the quantity and distance. Focus on being in that zone and finding a cadence that helps you maintain it.
Already wrong in the first 35 seconds. Polarized training is NOT 20% of time high intensity. It is "roughly" 20% of sessions. Big difference. Polarized is aldo not about short time gains but increase performance sustainably over years.
Dylan is a vegan. He’s malnourished & will have other possible mental-gut issues down the road. TrainerRoad has their own issues too. Find some OLDER EXPERIENCED been there done that coaches. I love all you guys trying to be the BEST YOU. Keep searching for your answer & never join a cult.
Have you tried polarized training?
I'm not following a strict plan currently, I hadn't planned to get an indoor trainer for the winter here in Europe but temptation got the better of me and I joined Zwift.
Damn its addictive, it really appeals to my weaknesses as I'm a long distance rider rather than doing crits but my ftp has increased by 25 watts in a month. I really need to improve my sprints as I'm outputting 3.5w/kg average over an hour but lack the power to really chase.
I'm trying to do zone 2 every other ride but occasionally Ive seen there's a crit and just gone for it. When I first joined I accidently went on one of the climbing tour rides straight after a crit and was bonked by the top.
All the matters really is to enjoy it if its only a hobby. After christmas some deadlines have passed and I'll start a more focused program, perhaps I'll try a polarized regime.
The TR masters plans are a cross between the two. Low volume is two hard workouts and one endurance…. Can just tack on extra endurance as and when
My story matched yours. I m staying polarised.
Yes, that’s how all Norwegian cross country skiers have been training since the seventies. I tried a lot of different cycling apps (including Zwift) programs and found that ever leads to overtraining. It’s too much interval and threshold. Remember that professional athletes don’t have a day job and many of them sleep 10-12 hours a day for restitution. And they are 25 years old. I made the most gain the year I was doing very slow miles for 3-4 hours several times a week. What zone 2 does is making your body much more oxygen efficient using it as energy. It basically raises your ceiling for when glycogen expenditure happens. That is less stress on your body and muscle. So your zone two level will increase. I think why most apps don’t have polarized training is because it’s quite simple and boring. Many people also think you haven’t worked out if you’re not sore or sweating. If you’re doing polarized training right you should feel like you could do a new zone two session the next day too.
@@ketle369 yes, this is a good conclusion. Sweet spot sells this is the thing.
Dylan Johnson is my main go-to for fitness/training advice because his information is science-based, rather than opinion or anecdotal. Although his racing pedigree speaks to the fact the information he researches is in fact effective. I haven't done sweat spot training in two years since watching Dylan's videos. All 80/20 polarized for me. Being that I'm able to ride 10-12 hours a week, I need to be able to hit my weekly training load without burning out half way through the week.
Agreed!
Exactly. Dylan has the most science in his videos. And Backwards Hat Dylan for the bro science 😂
I also highly recommend you listen to the Empirical Cycling Podcast. If you want the most scientifically possible explanation (even with chemistry lol), there's no other place better.
“ should be a stress reliever, not a stress inducer”
Great point!!!
I am a B cat rider on Zwift and age 53. Having never followed a strict trading plan I decided to follow Dylan’s annual plan…rest, weights, endurance and race. Currently coming to the end of weight period and I feel really strong. Let’s see how it goes but with three teenage boys joining in it is great fun which is what it should be about really.
I agree, Damian. And the fact you’re able to spend time on the bike with your boys is really cool. Memories that will last a lifetime!
I think the key to polarized is being able to commit a minimum of 8-10 hours a week to riding. When you get below that, 20% just isn’t enough stimulus for adaptation and low volume sweet spot plans are going to be more effective.
You believe this is the case with mid volume polarized?
I guess the other part of this, if you can't prioritize 8 hours a week to riding, maybe you shouldn't be 'training'. It's probably more effective to just go out and enjoy riding with the limited time you have, not worrying about any of this stuff.
@@andrewedwards2838 I would strongly disagree.
@@andrewedwards2838 I guess you will have to decide whether "training" as an amateur who will likely never be a pro (and don't be disappointed about that) is something you enjoy. Do you like showing up to amateur races and meeting new people, socializing, or do you feel bad if you got 2nd place? Life is a journey.
@@terryjenner2156 Yeah, exactly. Define your priorities. Figure out how to get there. Wanna go pro? Gonna need to put some time in on the bike. Eight hours is laughable. Wanna be the best amateur in your local race? Still need to put time in on the bike, maybe less depending on the scene. Training plan is worth it. Eight hours may be about right, probably low end. Wanna hang out with friends and have fun? Don't need nearly so much time. Definitely don't need a training plan. Just go have fun.
According to Seiler, it's not 80% of the time. It's 80% of the sessions. So, in a 10-day period, there are two HIGH INTENSITY days within it (aka ~3 hard sessions approximately every 2 weeks or 6 hard sessions per month). If you do it by time, you'll likely end up with too many "hot" sessions.
This is a great vid. I smiled when said that you were stress when looking forward into your weeks of training.
I switched to polarized training three years ago at the age of 45 and I haven't looked back. No more burnout and fatigue from overtraining, eye-popping fitness gains and as @SeeSmithTV says, no more stress and feelings of dread when looking at my training calendar. Case in point: earlier this year after 8 weeks with very little time on the bike and a gnarly case of Covid, my FTP had dropped to around 295 from 330 or 340. I started the Dylan Johnson Base Training plan in early January. My FTP jumped up to 310 after 4 weeks. Then up to around 325 at the end of the next 4-week block and 345 or so by the end of the 12-week program. No fatigue whatsoever and I was able to finish every workout (a few by the skin of my teeth haha). I know FTP doesn't tell the whole story, but those are some pretty startling fitness gains!
Yea those gains are awesome. Great work man!
Not that one can really test it out in a reasonable way, but you had a big break and FTP increases when you started back up. Would you have gotten similar gains with pretty much any plan or even no plan at all?
Appreciate hearing your perspective. I’m 62, so the thought of all that threshold training sounds exhausting. I just need to focus on maxing out 2xweek. Thanks for the video. Great job!
Thank you and thanks for taking the time to watch! Happy training.
I am currently using their AI adaptive plan...I set it up as a masters plan with just 3 workouts. I manually set all the workouts to 90min, as I do them on the trainer. Then I just ad on my 5-6h of z2 riding...and I have a plan with 2 hard days and the rest is only Z2 riding. The AI then adjusts those 2 hard days accordingly to how I am doing. That is how I worked around the system that I have a polarised adaptive plan :)
I’ll keep that in mind because I want to try the Master’s Plan next! I saw that it was recently released.
What's the difference between what you are saying and their polarized plan? This plan also has 6 workouts, 2 threshold and 4 zone 2, 8 hours per week. Seems really balanced.
@@jonhalda Hi the difference is that AI adaptive program structures all your training based on your events and it adapts the workouts regarding how you have completed them. In my case it planed out all the training for 12 months, with all tapers for the events, and in my case this approach works well.
@@alenkovacic7913thanks, but can you explain exactly what did you selected, I want to try it
@user-ur4lv4zh4h I do log them and it adjusts the interval sessions if I do to much TSS... Of course you can override the red light green light if you know you are going to recover. Eventually the system learns that you are able to do more TSS in a week, so It doesn't show you yellow and red days so often. It works great for me...
Someone should compile all backwards hat Dylan advice and do them for 3 months.
hahaha
I can only know my own experience, but I suspect that the key is to train adaptability, relying only on SS or polarized will cause an adaptation to that kind of work. Changing strategies while watching for individual markers of overtraining. is probably better.
As an old curmudgeon, I don't think that TRs sweetspot plans nor 'Polarized' are ideal for most cyclists. There's a who lot of other work that is useful for cyclists that don't fall into either: tempo has a place, high torque / low cadence has a place, over/unders have a place and and super useful for most cyclists. I wonder what you think about an experiment: Take TR low volume plans, drop one of the workouts (2 intensity sessions, keep the long one) and fill in the rest of your week with aerobic endurance / z2 rides. You'll get some sweetspot work, some threshold work, some over / unders from their base programs, and depending on which build, you'll get threshold,over/unders, suprathreshold, vo2max, etc. but only 2xweek and get the volume and peripheral aerobic adaptations from filling in with z2 rides.
I think when you touch on training couple with everyday life you hit the point exactly. Many of these training plans out there try to train you like you are a pro who has tons of extra time. If you are single, no family, and no other commitments, with a total focus on high level racing... well maybe things might be different, but most of us don't have that kind of life. In the end, Dylan's analysis, based on science, makes sense and it goes well with the kind of training that most of us can fit in. And it can be scaled and adapted. The interesting thing is that Dylan is always learning and making tweaks to his training. No one thing works well all the time for everyone. Listening to your body, looking at your lifestyle, and adjusting to fit needs is key. As someone who has trained others (rowing) I can say that polarized training makes a lot of sense, and the best training plan adapts to the needs of the athlete.
SST is a good block for a beginner - their FTP is probably in the 200s and the riding at anything above 200w is going to be progression to a higher FTP. After doing this for a while it becomes harder to get adaptation from just that alone... and the trap would be to just ride more and more low Z4 as it wouldn't bring any benefit.
I also got a laugh with the recent changes in TR - renaming of some SST rides to Endurance ride - so to better provide some expectations that the ride is performed in a lower intensity (proving Dylan Johnson correct, that they see it was misleading now)
I've been doing the XC MTB High Volume plan with TR, and it seems to be polarised. The great thing about TR is the people behind it are like Dylan (constantly looking at the latest scientific evidence), and constantly adapting their programs.
Yea, I love that about the TR team. I want to try the new Masters plan soon!
Polarized is definitely the way to go if you practice another sport on the side.
I lift weights and ride on the track so polarized allows me to use Z2 work as recovery rides. It's effective work that doesn't add fatigue and helps recover for the next session.
Yes... it works... TR training plans also work. I've also gone backwards on polarized training and had a reduction in FTP and performance. I've also burned out using TR's sweet spot programs. DJ's critique was a bit over simplified. The proper stimulus, fueled appropriately given the necessary amount of rest will achieve results. Each rider has to develop an understanding of their body and where they are physically. If you outsource this learning to something that isn't taking into account your entire life, then it is you is making the mistake.... not the app, training plan or coach.
💯Spot on
Yeah. This. I've been doing the thing for 10 years now, so i think i start to grasp the long term view. At start me polarized worked well as it helped me to stay away burnouts and just being consistent was the key. With tempo/sweetspot one can just grind it away with being already tired. I did bury myself into quite a hole couple times. Z5 in particular is impossible without proper rest. As years pass training has to become smarter and more individualized.
Dylan Johnson was able to improve his FTP just by training 30hours a week for a month, mostly at low Z2. For me that kind of approach just doesn't work. I've trained 3 months 20 hours a week, with nothing huge to show for, not even noted improvement in aerobic threshold (which was quite a bummer). Not saying that it was in vain, i did after all have huge PR in Z5 later on after dedicating couple months to it... Only to miserably fail at Zwift Academy's Fatigue Fighter (demanding FTP-workout). So for me everything has to be very specific.
And that's the problem with DJ's science takes. People thinks that science has the ultimate answers... Just no, the science has to be implemented into individuals and any coach worth their salt will be open to using sweetspot as tool, even doing huge volumes of it if athlete can take it.
I dont' know how TR has improved when they started to introduce their adaptive training. Which seems huge improvement to their earlier method, but is it willing to tell person that the person is going to have bad 6 months when they see no improvement in their Ramp Test in favor to build their base? Or does it chase short term goals just as before, just being bit more smart about it.
@@Second247 Good question. No, their AI dedication doesn't have any predictive capabilities (yet). It takes into account your previous rides and also you need to be honest about how the workout was when filling out the post ride survey for the AI to be most effective. I'm not sponsored by TrainerRoad and I don't work for them, but would love to get a peek behind the curtain and see what they are working on for future updates.
great post... interesting to see others going through the journey. @@Second247
This needs to get pinned because you nailed it
Polarized makes even more sense when people cross-train, either weight lifting, xc ski, or do some sort of martial art like BJJ during their week. Dropping from 2 hard interval days to just one might also make sense.
Good video. Myself I like to do much indoorbike races , and I guess that is treshold, but I am putting zone1+2 days inbetween. I want to not exceed two highzone days a week, and to get in at least two lowzonedays, and maybe 3 or 4 lowzones.
I think you’re on the right track!
Ive tried both, and I think it depends primarily on your overall volume. In my experience, if you are training low volume you will probably see more gains doing more than 2 interval or hard sessions (you could also throw a 1h threshold session) per week. However, the higher in volume I go the less hard sessions and more zone 2 work I need to do so that I do not burn out or get injured.
I love your video and I agree with you and this year I've been doing just polarized training and having a lot more fun just riding my bike
Love to hear that you are enjoying the bike. That’s what it’s about! And thanks for taking the time to watch.
Great video, enjoyed your thoughts. Yes, I have been doing more polarized workouts as of late. End of 2022 race season, left me completely burned out, made some changes into '23, and now on the indoor trainer. So far so good.
Thanks, Adam! And good luck with whatever events you’re targeting in ‘23
I'm very happy you've tried it out and have gotten positive results. I feel like I've plateaued in cycling and your video gives me great hope that I can get over it with polarized plan.
Thanks! Definitely give it a try and see how it goes. Training is just one element of bike riding though man. Honestly, what matters most is that we get out there for exercise and enjoy ourselves.
Great video! Was not aware they offered polarized plans as I only have tried the custom plan. Excited to check that out.
Thanks! I hope you enjoy the plan as much as I did!
Thanks for sharing your perspective!
You're welcome!
Great video for a beginner like myself,very good points explained well.
Hi Ian. I’m glad that you found it helpful! Is there anything else you want to know about as beginner? I’m trying to help folks and make this sport more welcoming. It would be cool to hear your feedback and if possible make a video around it. Happy New Year!
I’ll take a sweet spot or threshold workout over a 3-hour zone 2 ride any day indoors. I wonder if polarization makes more sense for individuals who have already reached a certain fitness level, like yourself.
Man, I agree. A 3 hour zone 2 ride indoors would be brutal! Lol. If you have TrainerRoad, I think the plan is worth giving a shot. Most of the endurance rides they assigned were 1.5 hours which is much more manageable indoors. I just chose to go over the assigned amount. I tend to go longer on those days and do some exploring.
@@SeeSmithTV yeah buddy I do have trainerroad, just started it 2 weeks ago and the workouts are perfect so far. It's mid-level so I should be able to manage, time will tell. My ftp is 320 outdoors but indoor I'm at 307, do you test lower indoors as well?
@@MrAttilaabri Nice! Well, historically I've only tested outdoors once (years ago). I just use the trainer for FTP tests because it's been the easiest. No cars, no stop lights, etc. Can just lock in and dig deep.
Keep grinding, man! I think more videos like this will get your subs up!
Thanks and thanks for taking the time to watch!
Thank you for sharing. I am interested in long-term polarized training, lasting at least 6 months. If you are still engaging in polarized training, could you please create a follow-up video?
Hey, first thanks for watching! I will plan to make a video on that in the future for you.
Really great summary, thanks!
No problem! Glad you enjoyed it.
Would be interesting to see what you think now that Trainer Road has that Red Light Green Light, and other adaptive training features.
@@BrianAThomas I actually just finished a block of training on trainerroad and will be including my thoughts on that new feature and some others. I should have it up within the next couple of weeks.
I think you can't just always do one method. If you have done sweet spot for a few seasons it is likely that any other legitimate training method that isn't sweet spot will give you a boost. Your points about how to fit training into real life are legit, and this is a consideration for any training plan. I plan to try a polarized plan in the upcoming year.
I hope you enjoy the experience and get some gains out if. It was definitely a welcomed change for me.
Polarized training for the win!!! 🙌🏾
I completely agree. It makes riding more fun.
Having done TR for two years (sweet spot training) and now having a personal coach (polarized training)....I think the biggest difference is time commitment, is this science - no - but this is the internet and this is my two cents.
If you have less than 10hours a week to train, sweet spot training might be ideal
If you have 10+hours a week to train, polarized training might be ideal
I do mid volume Training. I was able to finish 3 hour race with guys who had 50 watts more FTP than me. Definitely recommend TR plans.
That's awesome. 3HR race is no joke.
If you have the luxury of living near flat roads and can ride during good lighting, then polarized plans are a lot easier to stick to. If you live in hilly terrain and it gets dark/wet before you start training, you have your work cut out for you as you'll likely opt for the trainer and I can say, after doing both polarised and traditional plans indoors, it's not the workouts that are hard, it's the overall commitment to that level of boredom - especially if you're someone who rides for the endorphins. I took all this into consideration when deciding that I need sweet spot training in my programme or else I won't stick to the programme and that's far more important than what training approach I'm using.
Agreed! Everyone needs to find what works best for them.
Dylan Johnson's video came out before trainer road added adaptive training and changed around lots of their workouts because the data from adaptive training showed many became over trained
Great video!!!! I like your presentation.
Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to watch.
It is said "there is noting new under the sun" and 80/20, err Polarized Training, is an example. While I tend to not follow a plan so may ride hard too often it is because I just enjoy training and just ride. That said I have run for 50+ years and ridden for 40+ and 80/20 is just what works and is what has been around forever. In the running world you can look up Arthur Lydiard and 80/20 is the way to go. Will you get fast gains - likely not - but for those seeking fun and long term health and speed gains 80/20 (Polarized Training) is the way to go.
Really good insights, most videos I’ve seen have only focused on the “performance improvement” aspect of training plans, but I had not thought of the mental/psychological stress impacts of the two approaches like you brought up-that’s maybe even more crucial especially for most of us that don’t race professionally 😄. I bet the lower mental stress too also helps drive better recovery as well!
For sure. For me, being burned out from training definitely creeps into other parts of my life
+100% on dropping from 3-4days intensity to 2/week. My 1min,5min,ftp all stayed the same, but I could reach them much more reliably. 4days meant many days I couldn’t reach target power and sometimes dreaded sessions. Seems I’m way too old (57) to thrash myself every day.
Well, that makes two of us. I'm mid 30's and feel the exact same way as you lol. There were some weeks during SS/Threshold training where I simply couldn't complete workouts.
watch the Peter Attia and Inigo san Milan discussion. target 3-4 1 hour sessions at zone 2, and 1 to 2 sessions zone 5. tried it, and it worked.
Peter Attia is the man
I've tried TR Polarized as well. And I was sooooo unhappy - not because of results and gains (perhaps I had _some_ gains after months of stagnation) but riding Z2 is so boring and un-rewarding. Smashing intensity workouts is (to me) much more rewarding and gives a chance to decompress from my work/life stress. Having said that - TrainerRoad has just introduced so called "Masters Plan". Seems like something between Polarized and SS training - with two intensity workouts / week. As I'm in my late 40's, started this (I'm in the 2nd week of this). Cheers 👍
I hear you on the Zone 2 rides being boring. Have you tried making an adventure out of a zone 2 workout? Maybe ride to a new destination with some friends, somewhere you haven’t been. I know depending on the area that you live in this can be easier said than done. But just offering up an idea. Enjoy the masters plan. I’ll be checking that out soon!
Nothing is more stressful to me than seeing a 2.5 hour Z2 trainer ride on my schedule 🤣
haha@@clrbrk9108
@@clrbrk9108 Get plenty of those as well. I immediately hit "Alternate" and pick the 1.5 or 1.75 hour version 🙂
We did same with you,2x only high has better outcome.
Sweet Spot is perfect for time crunched cyclists (
I mean to each their own. I’ve done both plans and experienced positive results. I think the key is to find what works for you, your goals, your body and your race schedule.
Glad you saw some results though I think you will need to continue on to actually see the big gains. I bought Dylan's plan this time last year and over 9 months raised my FTP 74 Watts! Well above what I was even hoping for. I just started again this year after some time off and still feel better than I have in years. I don't expect that big of a bump this year but I don't see any reason I can't gain another 30 or maybe even 40 Watts this year. Polarized works 🙂
How many hours per week were you training for?
Definitely thought provoking 🤔 to be fair, at my age, polarised is all I can do. Too much high intensity and I’d need weeks of recovery 😂
I’m about at that point myself to be honest haha
I agree, although Dylan I suppose on his review awhile back... never chose "alternates" options... depending on person and outside stressors. Love him, but... the review was lacking all options that TR offers, depending how you feel. I personally am over 50, and feel crippled after my job, so need to spin before work. I recently chose the "Masters" option on TrainerRoad and I'm unsure if its similar to Polarized, but.... not only did I go up to mid volume, High volume looks just as fun in the "Masters" options !!! @@SeeSmithTV
That's good to hear, I'm going to do the Master's Plan next. I was really happy to see them offer it as an option when they released it.
That’s so well said - bike should be a stress reducer, not inducer 👍🏻
The music was almost louder than your voice. Fyi. As far as polarized training goes, I tried it, but it requires more hours on the bike than I'm able to give. I'm glad it works for you though, congratulations on the fitness gains!
Ah, no. Thanks for that feedback. Throughout the video or during the second half? I will look back at the volume levels in my software to adjust for next time. And yea, everyone needs to find what works best for them. What matters most is that we’re on the bike!🙌🏿
I am a Dylan Johnson fan.. watching this now
Good video! You're right, TR did change a lot after Dylan's video. I personally found that their plans got too hard for me to manage, but then it wasn't that bad as I could just dial back the workout if it got too much. Like you though, with Trainerroad I saw the biggest increase in FTP I've ever had. I think I went from around 230 watts all the way up to 300! The strongest I've ever been. However, it did take a lot of dedication, but one thing TR is really good at is the whole scheduling thing. If I could afford to use it again, I would I think. Too many subscriptions!
That’s a huge increase in ftp! Wow. Yes, I’m like you, the less subscriptions the better. I still haven’t caved to pay for Strava yet lol.
I've always rode without a heart rate monitor or power meter and never did structured training till a month ago when I got a heart rate monitor. Watched a lot of Dylan, Inigo and Stephen Seiler vids and decided to try it. I understand why I've been burning out now. I've been riding tempo and threshold most of the time. Pushing above threshold on most climbs. Now I'm doing two interval days a week and three zone 2 rides. Wahoo system has the top end of my z2 at %81 so I'm riding a bit under that. Have to say it is a lot less burn out. I feel a lot better, not as stressed and I'm enjoying the bike more. I'm seeing my pace increase gradually at the same heart rate. Looking forward to my next Half Monty to see if that translates to an actual FTP increase.
Brick by brick…just keep putting those training days in and the fitness will come. Just try to always make sure you’re enjoying yourself too! Happy to hear that you’re experiencing less burnout.
@@SeeSmithTV great advice and glad you are as well. Feeling good should be the reason we train and ride in the first place.
Try Xert.
spin&kick is more core, 50/50 split which is LTP and vo2max with sprints. no erg just ride at silly high targets
the problem with polarized training is that all your riding buddies want to go out and kill Phil Maffetone on every ride, yet I would like to build up my base miles and make hard riding, easier...Or get faster, or feel like the 4 percent grade is easy and go from there. If you enjoy group rides, then it depends upon the group. The higher level group rides sometimes become ad hoc races owing to personal ego. Which was my original thought.
Hey your really easy to listen too!
Thanks Drew! Really appreciate you taking the time to watch.
Any training plan even a bad training plan is better than no plan at all. - Joe Friel.
Joe Friel is the man! I still need to finish his book.
I don't think that polarized training has any zone 1 besides warmups and cooldowns. It's pretty clear. Zone 2 for 80% of the time and Zone 5 for 20%. Much harder than it seems like.
I used TrainerRoad for years. Absolutely had positive gains until the last couple of years when I hit a plateau and couldn’t get off. I then switched to polarized and have had big gains since without near the burnout or fatigue (mental and physical). Polarized is much more enjoyable for me and balances really well with life.
what software did you use for polarized? Trainerroad?
@@jean-frederickjacques6780 I grabbed a polarized training plan from Training Peaks and did that outdoors during the summer. I had 8% gain in power and my mind/body was so refreshed compared to what I had previously been doing that got me stuck on that plateau. I like the TR software platform and you can def have gains but for me I just got burned out on sweet spot. I will probably send my workouts to TR if I have to do them indoors on a trainer when it's too cold to ride outdoors.
Im making the switch too
If it wasn't for Dylan's videos I would have quit a long time ago. My methods simply were not working. Going too fast and hard all the time really made me hate the sport. After watching his videos and putting his techniques from paper to the gym and bike, I love the sport all over again. I can't thank Dylan enough for sharing his knowledge. Just follow his advice and the sport will be so much more rewarding. 👍 Oh, don't listen to that backward hat Dylan guy. He's funny but he's cra cra!! 😂
Haha backwards hat Dylan is something else
I did a 5 month block of Pol. training on TR in the spring. Below you can see what I had to say about my experience on the TR forum. It is from 2 comments. I could not copy the pictures of the ftp gain so they are in text
With 8-10 hours of riding and doing 2 hard work out in 2/3 of the weeks and 1 hard the rest the Pol. plans did not do anything for me. I would probably have gained more by changing some of the days from z2 to tempo or SS.
My personal experience with Pol. plans. Regarding FTP they have done nothing spectacular. Please see the 4-month comparison below. Just for the record. I never had the feeling I overperformed on the ramp test. More the opposite.
I did mid-volume back in 2020-2021 and low volume Pol plan with a lot of added Z2 riding this spring.
The TSS is up by about 30 on the 6 Wk. avg in the Pol. plans
old school plans
Nov 7, 2020, ftp 252 W- Mar 16 2021, ftp 275 W
POL Plan
Jan 16 2023, ftp 263 W - jun 4 2023, ftp 268 W
What about sustained power for a longer interval? I do not know as 16 min. intervals were not really part of the old workouts I did.
The only thing I see that I gained from the Pol plans is more time on the bike.
With the added Z2, and also an extra hard day added every second week, I do between 8-10 hours a week (TSS between 400-600). That is not enough riding for the Pol. plan to work for me.
There is no debate. The creators of both periodization and polarization agree you need both. You need a base and a race training plan. Neither plan will fully work for all cycling disciplines. A mixture of both is likely optimal
It’s the difference between training as an amateur or a pro
I thought polarized generally is 80% of the volume in zone 2 and not zone 1? Did you increase your overall volume during polarized training block vs trainer road's more intense plan? Think that's supposed to be the caveat
@@ryankeels4661 it is, but there is a 3-zone model and a 5-zone model that you can train from. I think Dylan has a video up on the differences. I haven’t done one on the differences (yet). My volume for this was about the same. I tend to do about 11-15 hrs/week. Which I realize is still more time than a lot of people can commit to the bike, especially if they have a family. If you’re short on training time, I’d probably go with TR’s sweet spot plan and do intensity over the volume.
Hi. I agree with all you said, but if we talk straight watts, you cannot claim having increased your FTP. Two watts, if I got it well, is waaay inside the margin error or your power meter, considering your massive FTP. Still, continue the hard work. And we have to not forget that this measure don't reflet your ability to ride longer rides with better power, which you probably improved
Was the sweet spot training continuous or broken into intervals to make it easier?
The workouts themselves are broken up into intervals
Great video! I think Dylan’s presentation contained a lot of disinformation. He seemed to equate “Intervals” with “Intense” a lot. I don’t see how sub ftp intervals can be described as “intense”. I thought you should be able to hold FTP for 1 hour like a TT? So sessions with intervals close, at, or slightly above should be ok. Off course, this assumes that the FTP level is accurate, perhaps folks have it set too high.
It’s intense. Greetings from Norway 🇳🇴. We invented the Norwegian method.
Last 3yrs iirc. TR/SS training teases or entices you with the quick Gains but you will burn up. It ends up being that your hard days are not hard enough and they’re too many or have brought your easy ones up into mediocre to the point where then you’re already almost completely mediocre all the time, tired, and disillusioned with inabilities to finish workouts which will come. 1st hand knowledge. You answered the question for yourself before doing the workout simply with your mindset looking at the week ahead.
Even the low volume plans have way too much intensity even if you were absolutely smart and take the off days or non-work out days completely easy and not doing any bunch rides or intensity of your own. It’s still too much. They will say that they had the traditional plans before, but really it was just another way of saying old ways of euro thinking - long slogs that zap your soul. -U10
“Tired, and disillusioned with inabilities to finish workouts” haha man I have been in that dark place … you hit the nail on the head
Been wondering about this very question. Thanks for the input. Currently doing a TR training plan. Will reevaluate in a couple months.
Thanks!
No problem. Good luck with your training block!
Love trainer road personally
Same
they are completely different styles of training which one should ask which one would work best for me? What are the demands of my events? How do I like to train (motivation).. there's no right or wrong. I think Dylan and TR are meh at best..
Lots of talk about FTP like it's the be all end all, it isn't! The thing is though, it's a measurable metric for most people and people are happy when the number goes up regardless of anything else and TR know this! FTP sells, and TR is selling!
So it's always been known that people that can ride 6 days a week and be on high volume polarized is very effective. However most of us don't have that luxury and doing easy ride for 1 hour is not going to cut it. So for you I can see how this is a great way to approach it but unfortunately majority of us may only have 6 to 8 hours a week to train so sweet spot it is with few endurance rides which with updated TrainerRoad they now have Sunday as endurance along with Wednesday and 2 sweet spot and 1 trashold day for total of 7 hours for me.
You have to do what is best for you, your body, your schedule. I have a video on my experience with sweet spot training as well. I just want to share my experiences with people, so in the end they can make an educated decision on whats best for them. Regardless if they use Trainerroad or not. I really just want to motivate more people to get on bikes, get the legs moving and get some exercise in.
Both Zwift and Trainer Roads programs are too intense and leads to burnout. They are good for final weeks leading up to season start, but I haven’t yet been able to complete a longer one. I’m not a professional so I can’t sleep 10 hours a day and spend the rest of the day relaxing after workouts.
Try Trainerroad’s polarized plan if you haven’t already. I have experienced burnout with their plans before and this plan was a welcomed change. Zwift training plans are notoriously bad. BUT, I do enjoy racing on their platform.
easy means Zone 2 right? so 75% of your max HR ?
More around high Z1 low Z2… so roughly 65%-70% of max HR if you don’t have a power meter. As HR can fluctuate day to day for several reasons.
@@SeeSmithTV I am using a PM too but the Zones are all over the place for me and totally not accurate to any model. If I take 75% of my FTP I end up at 2,3w/kg - if I ride at that pace i end up at 80% of my max HR average over a 1h session. So which one should I care for now HR or power?
@@blinzi69 Try 60-65% of your threshold power for long z 2 rides. Then, build from there. Power over HR for me.
agreed.
The music is too loud.
Thanks, Keith 🙏🏾 someone else mentioned that the music was a bit loud for them as well. I will make adjustments next time.
I liked the video. I liked the part at the end when you say that bike riding is suposed to be fun. and the stufff about spending time with friends. @@SeeSmithTV
It’s all about the time you have to train. No way to have gains with 4 hours of polarized plan a week.
What are the glasses you are wearing at 4.29?
Alba Optics Delta model
This type of training is actually nothing new. I was racing like 25 years ago and we had exactly same training plans. And not only us, I won't be surprised, if someone find out, that even 100 years ago were riders doing similiar stuff.
Interesting video, but note that polarized training relates to the number of sessions rather than time - ie 80% of sessions are at low intensity. Based upon time, it tends to be nearer to 90-95%.
Anyone working a full time job with a family doesn’t have the time necessary for “Zone 2” gains.
I get it and understand where you are coming from. However, you have to want to make the time. Evaluate your current training plan and ask why you would want to leave the benefits of riding in zone 2 on the table. Be precise with your training and commit to maximizing time in a training zone. The quality of the rider matters more than the quantity and distance. Focus on being in that zone and finding a cadence that helps you maintain it.
Already wrong in the first 35 seconds. Polarized training is NOT 20% of time high intensity. It is "roughly" 20% of sessions. Big difference.
Polarized is aldo not about short time gains but increase performance sustainably over years.
Thanks for watching
zone 2
Dylan is a vegan. He’s malnourished & will have other possible mental-gut issues down the road. TrainerRoad has their own issues too. Find some OLDER EXPERIENCED been there done that coaches. I love all you guys trying to be the BEST YOU. Keep searching for your answer & never join a cult.
check out the coaching advice from kollie moore at empirical cycling. you won't look back.
On it!
I don’t trust die-lan. He’s boring and constantly blows smoke out of his arse
Bro just got a top 10 at Unbound. Thats incredibly hard to do.