The Problem With TrainerRoad Training Plans
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- Опубліковано 13 лют 2021
- Trainerroad training plans have a huge problem and ignore the current research on what optimal training should look like. I dive into the science to get to the heart of this problem.
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Studies I used in this video:
journals.humankinetics.com/vi...
journals.humankinetics.com/vi...
journals.physiology.org/doi/f...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
www.frontiersin.org/articles/...
journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Fu...
journals.humankinetics.com/vi...
www.frontiersin.org/articles/...
journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Ab... - Спорт
Have you tried TrainerRoad's training plans? What was your experience?
Good for building fitness for 1 event, but it’s not great for building long term or “deep” fitness. Also there’s a big focus on always needing to increase FTP.
Thanks for the video Dylan. I've been a TR user for more than 5 years and had great success with their plans. Not saying it's the best way, buts it's worked well enough that I've continued. Have been including more endurance work in my training for the last 12 months though so not following the plans strictly at the moment.
Also, I think that TR’s main target audience is the beginner cyclist who’s getting into structured training and has 1 or maybe 2 events a year. That used to be me. Once I wanted to focus on having fitness to perform for a season of races, and wanted to see actual improvement year over year, I switched to working with a coach. TR is good, but there’s better ways to train if you’re not looking to “get fast quick”.
Burn out
I have tried them, can’t get through them. Living in Michigan I need trainer time in the winter and I still prefer TR over Zwift… but I make my own workouts or pick and chose there workouts as needed. Great video. I had always wondered about other people and there experience with their plans. Thank you!
TrainerRoad seems to have taken your criticisms to heart - the app is now very aggressive with their adaptations to avoid too much training stress, and has created what they call “Masters Plans” that prioritize more recovery. Would love to see you do an updated analysis with the new changes!
I'm an old(er) cyclist who used to amateur road race in the 80's, training "traditionally", with lots of and lots of miles of easy seat time before race season and incorporating two interval (formerly called fartlek or speedplay) sessions a week . I LOVED cycling and had some success back in the day. Fast forward 35 years and wanting to get back into cycling seriously, if not competitively, well masters maybe, I signed up for Zwift , Trainer Road, Sufferfest and used the tools of the internet to catch right up and it seems Dylan is spot on. I thought decades of time and science would have improved training by now, but every program I tried, I burned out and burned out within weeks and I dreaded getting on the bike for the next session. Yes age is a big factor, but I also saw the low intensity, long miles that was specifically "not recommended" in Trainer Road (considered the most serious of the training programs) and against my better judgement thought oh they must know better because, well, it's been 35 years. Well sometimes, when something works, it works, even if it's old school. Just get out and ride for the love of riding. The rest will follow. I do love power meters though!
I don’t think it is fair to say Trainer Road consider “long easy base mile” not recommended. Though it is the thing that you would forgo if you don’t have time. On their latest podcasts, Chad was recommending people on their low volume plan do low intensity base ride during off days (half an hour, 45 minutes, however long you have time to put in), as long as these rides doesn’t compromise proper training sessions.
It’s my first season with them. I am trying their low volume Sweet Spot Base at the moment. Mostly because with the lock down, home education of 3 kids and everything, I can hardly put a session longer than an hour in to ride. Given my modest fitness, I don’t feel the SSB plan is tiring me out (admittedly, I am not doing GYM at the moment. Those does change the balance). I am trying to supplement with these low intensity ride during off days. That said, looking at Trainerroad’s high volume SSB, some of the stuff I see there definitely doesn’t make sense and are receipt for burn out. It almost felt like they start off with low intensity SSB and just expanded it out with the extra hours.
I kind of felt low volume SSB is sort of “cheat code”, and there will be consequences. For me, it’s not important to find out the optimal training method (well,I know it by following this channel), because I can’t put the hours in to do that. What’s important is find what’s best giving the time I can put in, and to understand the trade off with the cheat code.
I've been racing mtb xc and some road through my 40's and 50's and retired last year at 60. Having the extra time and energy I've gone back to the basics to what I too learned 35 years ago. Lately I've spent 3-4 months in zone one doing long rides and getting the weekly time above 12 hours a week. It still works!
Fartlek, that brings back some memories. You might have a look at Xert .
Not to mention that cycling in Z1 / Z2 is actually ENJOYABLE! So having 2 to 3 really fun and enjoyable rides every week builds your love of the bike and breaks the ‘I’ve got to crush my cranks every time’ mental habit.
I think they're even proud of having really hard training plans. As a matter of fact it's just stupid. But I don't fully agree with your conclusion: just go out and ride and the rest will follow. When you are a competitive athlete this approach is not sufficient enough. You need a well(!) structured training. You need to overcharge yourself to gain maximum fitness. But you have to do it gradually and carefully. Doing 3 or 4 or even 6 interval trainings per week surely is the wrong way.
I don’t always follow a training plan, but when I do, I usually sabotage it with my own BHD mentality
BHD?
@@macster1000 backwards hat Dylan
Haha. Everyone had an inner BHD, especially when trying to do a zone 2 ride on Zwift.
@@macster1000 backwards hat Dylan. :)
@@stormrider1119 zone 2 ride in a tour de zwift ride, I tried and I failed
Dylan I'd be really surprised if anyone would unsub to you for giving us the raw science. That's kinda what we're here for!
Sadly there is a yuge part of the American public not into science 😮
@@addingonbird1 unfortunately, I live in one of those parts. So I know all about it!
@@andrew66769 keep up the good fight 👨🔬
Cutting the fat. If people can't question the status quo with science then they are in the wrong place anyways...
It's 2021 and if you haven't looked around people have their minds made up and don't want to be confused with the facts
Thank you!!! The science has always backed up a more polarized training schedule for endurance athletes. As a mom of two very fast high school girls it has taken time to convince my kids that in order to go fast you must learn to go slow. It is in large part your videos and Joe Friel’s books that finally convinced them. As a result, my 17 year old won the state championships here in Utah for Varsity girls by 3 minutes and she was one of the few on the line that had not hired a professional coach. Now we have a coach helping her to get ready for nationals who tried to convince her that sweetspot was the way to go. Your video today was just what she needed. The training schedule will remain polarized! Thank you for having the courage to put this video out today, it needs to be said.
Great achievements! Congrats. By the way, coaches do need an idea, a product and a hype... sweet spot is a hype: fact. It does work, but not everyone and it goes get people burnout.
That's remarkable. To be a coach and live under a rock, oblivious of really not that all recent research. That's sad, really, I'd feel like a clown.
Me: watching a video agreeing with what Dylan is saying while on the trainer doing my 4th TR intensity workout of the week...
Just do 3 workouts and add a bit of volume and you should be set
Was it really your 4th high intensity or was it sweetspot, i.e. Z3?
@@johnpeachell1644 I would qualify sweet spot as intensity, especially when they approach 95%.
Its Z2 of the 3 zone model this study in this video references. TR use 88-95% of FTP for SS, I know other places that use 83-93%. 20min at 95% must be hard
no TR plan has 4 HIT sessions a week
I hope they invite you to their “Successful Athlete” podcast, where you can discuss this in person in depth...
I would be very shocked if they don't tbh.
@@andrew66769 Yeah they'll probably invite him and I'll be sure to listen!
@@andrew66769 Nate can’t handle criticism
I would love to see that but I feel Nate would be a very funny shade of red most the interview.
I would love to see that but I feel Nate would be a very funny shade of red most the interview.
I love TR and their podcast. It’s taken me from a decent age grouper to back of the pack professional and I am self coached. But I agree with you 100%. I have tried their plans 2x and on both occasions, I was fried after 1 month. Instead, I pick and choose my workouts from their library and do my own thing based on the science and how my body is absorbing training.
I've switched to polarized training based on your earlier videos. That helped me understand that the TR sweet spot plans were too much for me. I still use TR for the library of workouts, but my training plan is based on polarized training. Thanks for the video DJ.
Thanks for doing this. I also love the TR podcast. They're a great group of people doing a lot of good for cycling and bringing a high dose of enthusiasm. So this was a tough task. Thanks for taking a shot at an objective analysis. These sorts of discussions are needed!
Nate will take offense, Chad will say the science shows he is right, Jonathan will awkwardly giggle and say "Right Amber?)
This
Oh man you've got it!
Best reply ever !
Lol
Haha spot on. Love TR though
Brilliant and timely for me. The best cycling information on UA-cam. 🙌
I like TrainerRoad, but you make a good point. I hope they listen or respond respectfully. 👍 Good work Dylan.
Have you noticed that lately, they're talking about minimum dose required to achieve adaptation? I think they're adjusting constantly and will get better and better. I'm very sure they're committed to doing the best they can.
They won't respond.
I do too, especially when I can't get outside because of bad weather. I do adjust their plans to suit though.
**Shots fired**
Edit now that I've watched the video:
Dylan, excellent video. It's a challenging topic and is directly critical of a major training platform for competitive cyclists. But you speak to something that comes up in their podcast, and comes up with frequency within various threads in the TR forum (e.g., threads on the benefits of their traditional base plans or threads on Maffetone-style training): that their plans are super sweet spot heavy, and that that's often (always?) suboptimal. And you do so in a way that's careful and pretty respectful.
Nate, Amber, Coach Chad, Jonathan, and the others are doing amazing things for training with power. I like their platform, and love many of their workouts. I'll keep subscribing because of that and because I see it as a worthwhile proxy for supporting the excellent podcast. But I don't do their SSB plans, and you provide deeply factual and well-researched reasons on why those plans are problematic.
Now it just remains to be seen if and how TR responds to this video. (I hope they do so humbly and with research and focus on what's best for athletes.) Thank you for the research (!) and for posting!
I’m looking forward the TR response :)
@@pjgalligan I came here just to comment "shots fired" lol
I always tweak the plans to make them work.
I swear by TR and also found this to be super useful. :-)
They won't respond.
Super useful vid. As a new rider and a TR user I can tell you that the burnout is real. Im definitely faster and fitter than when I started but I've had to cut my volume a lot so that I can be recovered for all the interval days. I also get days where I'm totally wiped out and feel like I'm coming down with a cold. I've been really dedicated to following the nutrition advice and the training plan but it still knocks me sideways.
lol… took almost the whole video to figure out you were saying "pyramidal" instead of "pure middle" :D
Hahaha me too
Ha yep, should be pronounced “pyr-AM-idal”
the video we have all been waiting for. Hopefully they do a rebuttal on their podcast - would be good to see how they come back on your points
The forum thread has already 111 comments...
Do a video Charlie
@@irl-cyclist01 yes. I would like to see Charlie's do a video on it.
You want TR to rebut peer reviewed science? Sounds like trump-think to me. :(
@@redcliffsrider Hahaha ahahahaha haha. No1 Dylan can't have gone through every paper possible in a 12 min vid so there will be conflicting evidence
No2 I assume trainer road have based their training plans on some sort of evidence
No3 I also don't rate trainer road and thing it's not a good product but it's interesting to hear other people's opinions otherwise you never progress in life if you only hear things that confirm your opinion
I would be living in ignorance without Dylan's great videos.
Dylan, I appreciate that you use data to back up what you tell us. I have a background in fitness and also coach juniors, you are spot on. Thanks for not being another coach that pushes no rest.
*quickly uses this as an excuse to not hop on the trainer today and do prescribed session
Found backwards hat Dylan.
Great content. I look forward to the TrainerRoad response. They are usually very thoughtful and sound in their advice.
Thanks for another good video!
I used TR for a while but I got over trained just as you say. I am happy I found your channel so I could plan my training better.
Outstanding job with this video. thanks for the efforts
You did a great job supporting your position. Well thought out, backed up with sound studies, and well communicated. It is telling when one of the TR coaches can only do three weeks of their plan.
Exactly what I thought.
There it is!!!!
Gutted to hear this. I love TrainerRoad and it got me into structured training, but now I have a coach and listening to what you say, it makes so much sense. I really struggled as you go through the week blocks, especially as you get into the phase 3 blocks. As always, great content! Thanks 🙏
As usual, more great information.
I appreciate the info and as most of us go to hard on easy days. I'll continue to watch your channel and TR's- you both have good content.
Thanks.
Thank you so much for making this video. I subscribed to TrainerRoad for 6 years and appreciate many things about them. I give them credit for making indoor training much more fun (used them before Zwift). I found riding their graphs addicting! I had good success racing while using TR too. But I would regularly hit my highest numbers of the season in late February and would carry significant fatigue thereafter. Racing successes came in spite of this and I never felt great. I always assumed this was due to shortcomings in my physiology.
I am thankful to have run into the work of Stephen Seiler and am grateful for people like you who asserting thoughtful material and issuing critiques that I think are essential if we are all going to continue to grow as a cycling community. I think and hope TR will respect your intentions will grow because of conversations like this. Everyone I know who uses them uses their plans as loose guides and just picks a couple of the harder workouts to use every week, anyway. It seems like some people at least, are already adapting their programs in ways that fit approaches like what you suggest, which one can certainly do o their platform. I would like to hear your opinion on their individual workouts too, however. I suspect that many of their individual workouts are either a bit too intense, have too many intervals, or maybe recommend rest between intervals at wattage that is a bit too high to make them efficient. Keep up the GREAT work!
I have been using TR for 4 years, had great success given I was new to structured training but I agree it feels like too much after a couple of months (base+build, mid and high volume). I always crashed and burn toward the end of build and sometimes decide to stop training until I get my motivation back. In terms of gain, those plans were great but after I used Dylan's 12+ hours plan recommendation (at most 2 high intensity, then the rest in Z2) I made even bigger gain and burnout went out of the door. My strategy is always to start with their plans and swap some of their workouts. Still, I credit them for most of my gains and getting me to be disciplined on the bike. Thanks for making this video, I had been meaning to ask about clarification on whether sweetspot qualifies as high intensity.
Dude, your videos are so good. Thanks for bringing clarity over such important and useful topics.
Thanks for the scientific approach, Dylan. I've used TR one winter and after a couple of weeks couldn't finish the workouts anymore, which I blamed on myself. Whilst training I also listened to the TR podcast and to me their ideas were sound. This made it even harder to question the program.
Looking forward to this 💯 I started on trainerroad but have a coach now... I found I just got really good at 20 minute efforts and had no base/endurance but some of the workouts are great fun... it’s just bloody brutal 😂
This confirms what I have experienced. Burned out while trying to stick strictly to TR plan.
Well done. I always appreciate the science behind your arguments! You have validated my personal experience over 30 years of cycling. I learned a long time ago that too much intensity without adequate recovery leads to Sour Legs.
Love this video you actually site your sources when discussing your break downs
New request: review Sufferfest!!!
I reluctantly went into the traditional base plan despite the recommendation and it was way better than the SSB plans I did before. Definitely valid criticisms and I’m excited to see what TR does to improve it’s definitely helped me but the burnout aspect is real
Same here. I made time in my day for traditional and I’m really liking it
You kind of hit on a point I wanted to make. If Sweet Spot Base is too much TR does off traditional base plans. You can always choose those and negate this entire argument for the base phase. I know TR recommends SS but you don't have to...
Always enjoying your videos, Dylan!
Have been watching a few of your videos lately. This one convinced me to finally subscribe. Cheers!
Looking forward to TR response to this. I believe their plans are designed more with "what training regiment people are more likely to stick to", which is also a valid reasoning.
It would be interesting to see your take on Xert approach.
Excellent video! I'm a TR user and this video addresses many of my doubts and questions. After getting through a number of their training blocks, feeling totally wiped out, I have lately been assembling my own plan, using their large library of workouts. Thank you for your research.
Great video. Big Kudos to your courage. Simply as objective as you can be. TR's podcast is indeed great, and this will certainly push them to review and improve their plans.
I agree 100%. As a trainerroad user since 2011 or so, I have always modified or made up my own plan by substituting in zone 1/2 workouts and only doing 2 hard workouts per week. This is especially critical when you factor in that most people are doing TR in the off season (winter) and so weight training also has to added in. Trying to do the MV or HV and lift heavy within the same week, week after week, is a recipe for self destruction. Knowing your limits and recovery ability is critical. Any vanilla plan which is made to fit 1000's of riders is not individualized, and therefore not specific to you. Also, TR really struggles to fit in older riders (60+ or so), which is an indication of the weaknesses in its structure which you alude to. Can't wait for the TR response next week! 😭
During your base do you lift heavy and low reps or the opposite ?
@@Northwindbreeze this year's all messed up. I'm not in the gym this year and don't race anymore. But in the past I always lifted heavy/low reps in Jan/Feb, after mid Oct/Nov/Dec working on form and getting ready for heavy work. Then in March I would stop legs and focus on the first races in early March. Rest of the year was just gym 2xwk doing maint, low weight/higher reps, but much legs. After not lifting in 2020 (just some KB's) , I know getting back in the gym will be painful and kill my riding for a few weeks.
Nice job. I too listen to the TR podcast and have questioned their approach.
Dude, HAT BACKWARDS DYLAN!!!!!! SO GOOD!!!! As long as hat backwards Dylan appears in your videos, I will NEVER unsubscribe. You make me laugh every video, ha ha, thanks for making my morning again.
I’ve been following and watching your videos for a number of years. I’ve been a coached athlete for a couple of years (though only a mid pack finisher). Looking at taking on a 100 mile mtb race so started looking at training plans offered by a couple of different companies like trainerroad and wondered if you were going to do a video on the topic. Kudos to you for following the science. Glad to know I made a good choice to follow a polarised approach instead 👍
Yep. Traineroad burnt me out in 2 weeks. I've had this discussion with many friends and now I have Dylan to back me up!
Looking forward to a vid on genetics and athletic performance.
Thank you, very informative!
Next review: Sufferfest training plans?
Thanks for covering TR. Like you, I listen to their podcasts and get something out of them most of the time but I have often wondered about the effort required to follow their training plans.
Well done Dylan. Really good argument. Totally agree with you. I wish I was brave enough to have made that video. 👏👏
That took guts. Thank you.
I also enjoy the TR podcast a lot! I just wish they weren't so entrenched in the sweet spot methodology and offered more variety to their training protocols. I think they could benefit as a company.
Great information DJ! Keep up the great work! Ride On!
Excellent presentation of your analysis, Dylan. Your methodical and research-based approach is incredibly helpful to us.
Just 4 minutes in, but that was exactly my thinking. I train between 10-18 hours a week and had a look at their high volumes base plan and was just like: "Yeah, right I will be burned out by February". I directly searched for a few minutes to find people who burned out doing it. I personally still do a lot of SweetSpot in the winter with around 3 sessions per week with quite long durations like 2x30min, but I have two rest days per week and use the weekends to do long endurance rides (if the weather allows it). This brings me up to a good level until I can start training outside. I just can't handle doing more VO2Max work for example on the traininer and that early in the year.
I love the trainer road podcast. It took me a few listens to get onboard, I didn't really get it, but now it's almost like listening to friends go on and on about who is going to beat who. I love how Nate seems to think he knows more about peoples performance then they know themselves. Honestly I could do without the questions and just have a half hour of them trash talking.
Thanks for providing links to the research articles!
Haha perfect combination of science and humor, as always cranking me up and educating at the same time
YES YES YES, thank you!
Spot on. It’s about time someone covered this topic. Good on you for having the balls to cover it.
That’s what I was going to say. Some of us work in heavy manual Labour jobs & needs a few days rest and more zone 2.
Another great one. Thank you for all the information
I like that you specified what percentages the polarized training model used.
Hey Dylan, thanks for another excellent video - would you be able to do one discussing how best to structure training that incorporates 1 or 2 group rides per week? I presume many people have a similar dilemma of not knowing how best to incorporate high-intensity interval sessions into a training week, given that most group rides have some intensity, yet often not of the optimal duration/intensity to constitute a 'proper' interval session. However at the same time, these rides are also not easy enough overall to be considered optimal zone 2 endurance rides with no surges and corresponding HR spikes. Thanks!
What I'm hearing is "the medium and high volume plans don't give you enough time to rest and recover." I'm going to keep chugging along on my low volume plan until the northeast thaws!
Yep, at least you can add low volume rides to the LV plan and not feel burned out.
Excellent video, very balanced and respectful review. I am on the lookout for a new plan, post COVID illness and I think this has convinced me to look at one of your polarized plans.
Excellent video. Been training for decades as a cyclist, tried multiple approaches, plans including both Zwift & TR. Only since following a polarised 3 zone approach this last 6 months have I seen consistent, progressive improvements. Fully sold. Backed up here nicely by Dylan.
Could that be because the other training gave you some base to build off and then the new platform put the icing on the cake?
Your videos are always a breath of fresh air in a space that many others over complicate. And my experience with Trainer Road? I tried it over one winter, followed a plan closely and entered the spring burnt out with dead legs. I wasn’t able to recover until the very end of the season.
You should quit cycling because you clearly didn't have the manhood to make it through. Have you considered playing croquet instead?
I saw you showed your profile from Xert, what do you think about their training advisor?
Great video, thank you! Perfect timing as I was considering signing up. I'm now a confident believer in what I"m doing after research by watching your videos along with others and whatever else I can read. I'm riding 5 days/wk currently mostly endurance since mid/end of November and just recently added in 2 sweet spot sessions/wk. I"m not a racer nor do I plan on it, just want to be a strong cyclist.
My post ended up on the video lmao I actually really appreciate this vid because it finally puts to bed the time needed component which was what a lot of people said and I tended to believe them. Thanks Dylan!
TrainerRoad have announced they will be offering polarised plans. See their latest podcasts. With the amount of users they have it will be interesting if they ever release figures on planned polarised workouts vs completed. That will increase the ‘N’ number, allowing TR to determine the statistical value of its effectiveness for the Joe Public who sign up for it.
I’ve raised these concerns today on a TrainerRoad forum on Facebook,doing base phase for Ironman but spending far to much time in zone 3 which is causing fatigue,time to change👍
Excellent as always.
Shots Fired! I love that you make videos pointing out the issues with other training plans, regardless of backlash. Especially after the Emily Betty video. Keep fighting the good fight and making great honest content.
I have no experience with trainer road and no connection to them.
You have some good points but I'm wondering what your definition of "high intensity" is?
It seems like you assume all interval training is high intensity? Imo intervals can be done in tempo and sweet spot and those are not perse HIGH intensity. (I think high intensity is around ftp or above)
So doing 4 or 5 days of intervals in a week is not the same as 4-5 days HIT, right?
My experience with mid intensity (tempo and sweet spot) many times a week (intervals but not high intensity in my definition) is actually very good.
I think the science is not always a good reference to a general rider.
Is there (i didn't check but your all in it so I'm asking) any science/studies on multiple months of training in tempo/sweet spot vs polarized? (Most studies are 6-8 weeks, but that's more effective for HIT and than the results flattens out. Sweet spot or tempo training could be slower response but higher final result after many months?)
Would be cool to share thoughts about this sometime!🤙
I agree with you Jasper, I had always believed that hard Sweetspot workouts were considered high intensity, but my coach didn’t think so.
This is an excellent point. If I do 3 x 10 min. Tempo do i consider that an interval or intense day?
You are correct!
@@jackiegerwitz-dunn4046 well it is an Interval training that's a fact, but I would not consider it a (high) intensity day.
Finally, someone understands the stupidity of this video.
I've had the same experience. Works for a month or two at mid volume but any additional stressors, like work or covid, and I fall off the rails. Its a very fine line/narrow margin for error managing the stress.
Good Job Dylan on explaining your concern. well informative. so many ways to train and every one is different and every ones goals are different. keep up the good work
Very interesting. I love a good nerdy breakdown.
TR User: (31 years old, 65 kg) I Started with a 2.5 w/kg FTP and currently at 4 w/kg FTP in 2.5 years. For me, it has been great! I've obviously started with a Low Volume plan because I didn't know anything about "Structured Training". Since that, I have completed many times their Three Stages on Mid-Volume: Base, Building and Speciality, and everytime my FTP has increased. I am consistent but there is always a day that work comes up and I just simply take it as a Rest day. I had only used the High Volume plan once, 3 months before a Training camp on winter and did not felt BURNED at any time. I am a "Recreational" type of cyclist, who loves to ride and simply enjoy the freedom that a bike gaves you! I don't know your price as a Coach, but I am a happy customer with TR who also learns from your content. TR ain't bad at all, I even improved more than other friends who hired a Personal Coach but aren't that consistent or don't take care of their food, sleep and recovery weeks. Any plans on a review to "The Sufferfest"?
I went from 2.4 to 4.1 in 2.4 years using polarized.
Loved this! A few proper digs at a recent podcast. 👌
To be fair to TR, they do actually promote a polarised/pyramidal approach, they just don't say it's that; either they don't realise or don't want to admit it. 🤔 What am I getting at? Well, in most podcast episodes they advise people to do the low volume plans and then add zone 2 rides in on top of these (6 zone model). If you add a 1 hour zone 2 ride midweek, a short 45 min z1 ride on Friday plus a longer 3+ hour endurance ride on the weekend, then, when you look a TiZ, it's either pyramidal or polarised depending on which low volume plan you are doing.
As for the 5 weeks on, 1 week off during base, anecdotally, this always puts me in a hole!
Thanks again Dylan. Seemed a pretty balanced assessment if you ask me. 👍
Yep, you’re right and it’s the exact approach I follow
Great video, it'd be really interesting listening to your take on the SUF too.
I like the TR podcasts. Getting another opinion on their plans is always good and nothing to complain about. Helps me to get my own opinion.
Chad has said many times, even recently that folks generally can only sustain intensity for two or maybe three rides a week. He, however does not consider anything under threshold "intensity" and there you have the disagreement. High Volume - Three intensity, one endurance ride, and one sweet spot ride.
I don’t use trainerroad, but indeed all these platforms are trying to setup plans for quick gains, based on the fact that the majority of folks don’t have massive free time to train and recover. I just created a custom plan on zwift for endurance ride, which is my go to plan and try to either race or join a group ride once or twice a week. This works fine for me.
Sharing Is caring... Me wants the plan 😋
A very fair and well reasoned video.
I absolutely love the Trainerroad app, website, forum and their podcasts. I will continue to pay my subscription in appreciation of all these things. I really like Nate, Chad, Amber, John & Pete.
But I have modified my training plan to reduce the number of high intensity days, mainly after watching a lot of Dylan's videos plus the fact I was struggling mentally with the incessant SS sessions. I now do 2 hard (threshold or VO2Max) workouts a week with 3 or 4 days of endurance riding in between to add volume. I'm feeling better for it and am making progress.
Awesome video and well backed up by your research. Great job.
3:14 Was a bit of an eye opener
'I recognised wasn't going to be able to make 5 [weeks] without completely breaking down'. Cue big smiles all round. WTF guys, this is the program you sell!
well they do state many many times low volume is for most and high volume only for very few
Exactly, if the so-called “coach” who made the program can’t complete it then it’s worthless. They shouldn’t be selling that garbage and dressing it up as a training program.
Context is king, treat accordingly.
@@sharonmoller7414 He was treating it like a short-term training camp, which is perfectly acceptable and doesn't make it "worthless". Get a grip and stop being so dramatic.
@@JTMarlin8 Hmmm, if it’s a short term training camp then why not sell it as that? LOL “get a grip”? Look who’s the drama Queen now... I’m laughing so hard at you!
I've personally have had amazing success with Trainerroad high volume sweet spot plans. I know everyone is different and has different life stresses but for me, I've never felt that the sweet spot high volume plan was too much for me. For other people, low or mid volume may work better. Everyone has to do what works for them. For me, it's Trainerroad high volume hands down!
If HV really is 6 intensity bouts per week then I wouldn't wish that on ANY athlete. I could see doing this type of plan for a very short term before an A race but to do it repeatedly? NO...DICE. Chad quit at week 3, which is damning enough given how smart he is and his cycling achievements. I get the sense that they all know what's up and none of them would subscribe to MV or HV type plans long term.
At the end of the day I think their collective hearts are in the right place and they genuinely want to see riders improve but long term, the intensity of these plans...at MV and HV are simply too high from a macro/year-on-year standpoint. From the standpoint of sustainability alone it just doesn't make sense. From a Fatmax /Vlamax perspective it also makes less sense. There are other issues as well.
You must be a beast if you can handle that high volume plan.
@@hebrews11vs5 I think it just boils down to life stress off the bike. I have a desk job that's not very demanding, I eat a ton of carbs and go to sleep at 8:30 every night.
@@raymondhollans perfect!
Thanks Dylan. I was hoping you would reply to the recent TR discussion. I am subscribed to TR but only low volume on your “2-3 times a week” advice. Thank you for your thoughtful, researched, measured and polite response.
The best cycling coach information comes from You. Totally unbiased and fact based info
there's always bias. How do you think he chooses the journals to cite?
Haha, thanks man. Was one of the ones asking for this. It does seem like there are too many intensity days in my TR plans. It has put me in a hole before.
Isn't it time to make this kind of review for Garmin connects training plans?
I’m a TR subscriber and fan. So glad you’ve approached this topic. You addressed my biggest questions about TR: high volume plans!!
I have always tried training plans and ended up riding kinda hard for hours. I did get pretty quick bit feel like I never unlocked my potential. Science is always evolving and I really like your approach as things do come to light in your field and it's looked at with an open mind scientifically. Keep up the good fight.
Yea so just my experience I love trainerroad but when I started using it 3 years ago (first time bike training ever) I quickly realized the crux of this video just by intuition and some knowledge of training as a swimmer back in the day- so what I did was I used the workouts to drop into a model that allowed for adequate recovery and less intensity/volume (also was doing swim/run training), and I mean, I made what I thought was pretty good progress, I learned a ton about training on the bike, and I really enjoyed the workouts. I think the workouts, the workout filter, and the workout variations (for adjusting duration but still hitting the same physiological stimulus), and the podcast are the real value of the trainerroad platform.
It's interesting to compare swimming, cycling, and running training. I was a competitive swimmer and runner, and then a draft-legal triathlete (and then back into running and some MTB/CX and road racing/training). In running training you can only go so many hard sessions a week (3, maybe 4 max), but in swimming you can get away with a lot more difficult sessions as you don't have the weight-bearing stress like you do running. Cycling seems to be somewhere in the middle. You can go incredibly deep on the bike (deeper than running for sure), and you can get away with a lot of smaller efforts on the bike day in/day out (like to just chase a few shorter strava segments everyday is relatively doable on the bike, if you're not hammering the rest of the ride). But yeah, the plan to be doing harder intervals 5 times a week just sounds like a bad idea.
Both Chris Froome and Dylan Johnson are not afraid to share their opinions! I think it's good, and I appreciate it.
yet people h8 durianrider for telling the truth for a decade +
@@Bayo106 think it’s his delivery of the truth that gets on peoples pisser 😂
I use TR workouts to plan my polarized training. I am 61 and for three years I tried to follow the plans religiously. I train 6 to 7 hours per week. This led to constant fatigue and illness. When I learned about the polarized approach I changed over and have never looked back. You are spot on with your analysis of their plans. I have been a TR subscriber for five years and have inquired about them adding polarized plans. Each time I get the same response. "You can create your own polarized plan using our workouts." Like you, I love their podcasts and I too find some of their conversations contradictory to their plan offerings.
Great video ! Thank you very much ! After watching, I have scraped my base plan in TR. Instead, I add 2 workouts of 1 hour 65-75% FTP, AND 1 workout with 7x4-minute intervals at 105% FTP with 2-minute recoveries after each. Ramp test every month. I am new at cycling, and I have to say, that I have to take it a bit more slowly than a sweet spot training cadence.
Don't worry, TR have announced that all their plans are polarised. Also, they've announced their first polarised plans.