I enjoy your videos but after years of doing these experiments myself I find that one has to give in a little as to what to expect (as I know you do) because there may be a time when you see footage that looks as good as it will get and yet we tend to still test it again and again. It wouldn't surprise me if we did a test 4 years ago and came up with what we thought was the best it could be and yet we do it again and come up with something different but better??? Maybe. For most people they probably couldn't tell the difference or care but to the rest of us, we just need one more test. We are funny. I know a handful of people who like their composite captures better than their S-video ones and so be it. I guess there's no accounting for opinions everyone has one right or wrong. Keep up the videos.I enjoy them.
That's a good point. I see two ways of looking at analog-to-digital capture. 1. VHS and Video8 analog is so awful that it hardly matters whether there is this artifact or that artifact. And anyway, no family member is going to care. They just want to see the video footage. 2. VHS and Video8 analog is so awful that you have to fight for every tiny improvement. I think everyone preserving old home videos is doing a great thing and anything is better than nothing. But for those who want to eek out the most from the video, there are ways to do it.
@@videocaptureguide I Can't argue with what you say. I think where it all begins for us is when we see a capture done by someone who admittingly knows they have no clue as to what they are doing and we see at least some improvement can be made and so why not make it, right?
I have no firsthand knowledge. However, I read at the forums that SCART video signal is equivalent to composite. So the best practice is to use S-Video.
From my experience with Extended Play VHS (6-hour tapes), the built-in noise reduction (NR) is essential for eliminating the jittering common with this format. The benefit of stabilizing the video far outweighs any minor artifacts introduced. In fact, for Extended Play tapes, NR outperforms any potential visual issues by a significant margin, making the playback smoother and more reliable. The external TBC and the external 3D adaptive comb filter will complete the best result. The Panasonic ES15 or ES10 are not the best hardware to do this.
Thank you for the informative video on the topic. While the TBC, comb filter and the S-Video are the right tools to fix analog tape time-based issues and luma/chroma separation, respectively, trying to fix luma issues (over/underexposure latitude) using the pro camp on a TBC offers the limitation of the fix to be only applied in a linear time. The initial setting incorrectly will affect every shot containing different exposure values. Fixing latitude issues in posts with an NLE color grading application will offer granular results. In the broadcast environment, chroma and latitude were/are controllable. Still, it's unusual to find proper exposure values for shot-by-shot in the consumer venue where VHS, Video8, and Hi8 were present-fixing nontime-based issues in post-production after digitization is more beneficial, except for cross-talk.
Good analysis. So ideally one would need to capture each scene separately to ensure no clipping of whites or blacks. Less ideally but more realistically, one would need to find a scene with medium amounts of brightness and darkness, set the proc amp settings to that, and then make adjustments the brightness and contrast more towards the middle to account for later super bright or super dark scenes. And then, assuming neither brightness or darkness was clipped, adjust each scene’s brightness and contrast in non-linear editor like the free DaVinci Resolve.
Both approaches you suggest are doable. However, regardless of the mechanical conditions of the VCR, camera, or tape, going back and forth on a linear system to cue the exact spot for each scene can worsen the tape, dirt the rollers, and the video head of the playback system. In addition, it is time-consuming. I will correct all time-based issues during digitization and leave the exposure values and chroma adjustments to post. If experimenting with the TBC proc amp is the goal, then, as a preference, it is worth trying it.
Only native y/c formats such as hi-8 or s-vhs benefit from s-video cable. Vhs,v8, and U-Matic are all native composite formats with these artifacts already baked in when recording to the tape. The only benefit I can see from using YC cable on these formats is reducing the crosstalk introduced during the capture procedure.
@@dens8790 but they benefit even more from just direct RF capture why introduce bassband interference when you can just do the whole end-to-end processing in software on the nice and very interference proof (relatively) raw FM signal, and then you have access to software comb filtering for 1D/2D/3D VHS-Decode really has cut through the noise on this.
@@TheRealHarrypm I wish someone would put together some turnkey RF Capture systems that we mortals could buy to. Most of us would love the results of RF Capture but we don't know how to get a system set up and working.
@@alphabeets It's completely documented on the wiki, with step by step installation and deployment steps, there has been documentation for years and it's proactively upgraded and updated. Once you understand the concept it's just a matter of clicking links and doing the motions. We have multiple hardware option routes available, and turnkey fabrication is completely available for the DdD today, and CX Cards are pretty widely available.
@@dens8790 That is incorrect. He is referring to a benefit of the best VCR players’ comb filters, but even those will never outperform the composite signal when using hardware circuits like Adaptive 3D comb filters, which came out several years later and offer a greater advantage. Also, keep in mind that we are discussing consumer media, not broadcast or professional media.
Crazy hobby? There are many companies that exist from digitization. The Panasonic DMR-E55 EG (first PAL YUV out) can be switched between bandpass filter and comb filter. Since a comb filter can only work correctly if the lines are 64µS (PAL, 53.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333µS for NTSC) apart, only the ultra few lines without wow and flutter are sharper, and the vast majority are just as blurry as with the bandpass filter. However, with old recorders you can use the Video Op Amp OPA690 to capture the color separately before it would be mixed with Y.
The video samples do not demonstrate the performance of the comb filter, and better comb filters are available in external hardware. There are evaluation patterns on DVDs that you could use for testing. The best test involves a moving subject with a background featuring a detailed pattern, like a brick wall, a building with busy pattern designs, or something as simple as a wire grid fence or a hammock. For static video only the 2D comb filter is applied and it does a good job , but for most common video scenes 🎬 it will be disappointing.
@@duncanmacleod2136 wrong Quality: Component video provides superior image quality compared to S-video. It splits the video signal into three separate channels: luminance (Y), blue minus luminance (Pb), and red minus luminance (Pr). This separation results in better color accuracy and sharper images. Resolution: It supports higher resolutions, including 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, making it suitable for high-definition content
@@tacofortgens3471 No I mean component. The video on the tape is Y/C. Luma is separated from chroma. To further separate the chromas you have to process them. That’s not a good thing to do in the analog domain.
Brother you are rocking, thank you for sharing all your in depth research...way to go
I enjoy your videos but after years of doing these experiments myself I find that one has to give in a little as to what to expect (as I know you do) because there may be a time when you see footage that looks as good as it will get and yet we tend to still test it again and again. It wouldn't surprise me if we did a test 4 years ago and came up with what we thought was the best it could be and yet we do it again and come up with something different but better??? Maybe. For most people they probably couldn't tell the difference or care but to the rest of us, we just need one more test. We are funny. I know a handful of people who like their composite captures better than their S-video ones and so be it. I guess there's no accounting for opinions everyone has one right or wrong. Keep up the videos.I enjoy them.
That's a good point. I see two ways of looking at analog-to-digital capture.
1. VHS and Video8 analog is so awful that it hardly matters whether there is this artifact or that artifact. And anyway, no family member is going to care. They just want to see the video footage.
2. VHS and Video8 analog is so awful that you have to fight for every tiny improvement.
I think everyone preserving old home videos is doing a great thing and anything is better than nothing. But for those who want to eek out the most from the video, there are ways to do it.
@@videocaptureguide I Can't argue with what you say. I think where it all begins for us is when we see a capture done by someone who admittingly knows they have no clue as to what they are doing and we see at least some improvement can be made and so why not make it, right?
Will the DVK 200 proc amp fix the es 15 luma issue?
what about scart vs s video ?
I have no firsthand knowledge. However, I read at the forums that SCART video signal is equivalent to composite. So the best practice is to use S-Video.
From my experience with Extended Play VHS (6-hour tapes), the built-in noise reduction (NR) is essential for eliminating the jittering common with this format. The benefit of stabilizing the video far outweighs any minor artifacts introduced. In fact, for Extended Play tapes, NR outperforms any potential visual issues by a significant margin, making the playback smoother and more reliable.
The external TBC and the external 3D adaptive comb filter will complete the best result. The Panasonic ES15 or ES10 are not the best hardware to do this.
Does noise reduction stabilize tapes? I know it Can destroy detail in EP tapes if it’s too aggressive but I didn’t think it reduced jitter.
Thank you for the informative video on the topic.
While the TBC, comb filter and the S-Video are the right tools to fix analog tape time-based issues and luma/chroma separation, respectively, trying to fix luma issues (over/underexposure latitude) using the pro camp on a TBC offers the limitation of the fix to be only applied in a linear time. The initial setting incorrectly will affect every shot containing different exposure values. Fixing latitude issues in posts with an NLE color grading application will offer granular results. In the broadcast environment, chroma and latitude were/are controllable. Still, it's unusual to find proper exposure values for shot-by-shot in the consumer venue where VHS, Video8, and Hi8 were present-fixing nontime-based issues in post-production after digitization is more beneficial, except for cross-talk.
Good analysis. So ideally one would need to capture each scene separately to ensure no clipping of whites or blacks. Less ideally but more realistically, one would need to find a scene with medium amounts of brightness and darkness, set the proc amp settings to that, and then make adjustments the brightness and contrast more towards the middle to account for later super bright or super dark scenes. And then, assuming neither brightness or darkness was clipped, adjust each scene’s brightness and contrast in non-linear editor like the free DaVinci Resolve.
Both approaches you suggest are doable. However, regardless of the mechanical conditions of the VCR, camera, or tape, going back and forth on a linear system to cue the exact spot for each scene can worsen the tape, dirt the rollers, and the video head of the playback system. In addition, it is time-consuming. I will correct all time-based issues during digitization and leave the exposure values and chroma adjustments to post. If experimenting with the TBC proc amp is the goal, then, as a preference, it is worth trying it.
Only native y/c formats such as hi-8 or s-vhs benefit from s-video cable. Vhs,v8, and U-Matic are all native composite formats with these artifacts already baked in when recording to the tape. The only benefit I can see from using YC cable on these formats is reducing the crosstalk introduced during the capture procedure.
that's incorrect. VHS and U-matic use a color-under system which definitely benefits from using an s-video cable.
@@dens8790 but they benefit even more from just direct RF capture why introduce bassband interference when you can just do the whole end-to-end processing in software on the nice and very interference proof (relatively) raw FM signal, and then you have access to software comb filtering for 1D/2D/3D VHS-Decode really has cut through the noise on this.
@@TheRealHarrypm I wish someone would put together some turnkey RF Capture systems that we mortals could buy to. Most of us would love the results of RF Capture but we don't know how to get a system set up and working.
@@alphabeets It's completely documented on the wiki, with step by step installation and deployment steps, there has been documentation for years and it's proactively upgraded and updated.
Once you understand the concept it's just a matter of clicking links and doing the motions.
We have multiple hardware option routes available, and turnkey fabrication is completely available for the DdD today, and CX Cards are pretty widely available.
@@dens8790 That is incorrect. He is referring to a benefit of the best VCR players’ comb filters, but even those will never outperform the composite signal when using hardware circuits like Adaptive 3D comb filters, which came out several years later and offer a greater advantage. Also, keep in mind that we are discussing consumer media, not broadcast or professional media.
Crazy hobby? There are many companies that exist from digitization. The Panasonic DMR-E55 EG (first PAL YUV out) can be switched between bandpass filter and comb filter. Since a comb filter can only work correctly if the lines are 64µS (PAL, 53.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333µS for NTSC) apart, only the ultra few lines without wow and flutter are sharper, and the vast majority are just as blurry as with the bandpass filter. However, with old recorders you can use the Video Op Amp OPA690 to capture the color separately before it would be mixed with Y.
YUV, you mean component out right?
@@tacofortgens3471 Yes
@@tacofortgens3471 Yes
The video samples do not demonstrate the performance of the comb filter, and better comb filters are available in external hardware. There are evaluation patterns on DVDs that you could use for testing. The best test involves a moving subject with a background featuring a detailed pattern, like a brick wall, a building with busy pattern designs, or something as simple as a wire grid fence or a hammock.
For static video only the 2D comb filter is applied and it does a good job , but for most common video scenes 🎬 it will be disappointing.
Shame most devices dont have component inputs and outputs, which is even better than svideo
Component isn’t better for VHS.
@@duncanmacleod2136 wrong Quality: Component video provides superior image quality compared to S-video. It splits the video signal into three separate channels: luminance (Y), blue minus luminance (Pb), and red minus luminance (Pr). This separation results in better color accuracy and sharper images.
Resolution: It supports higher resolutions, including 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, making it suitable for high-definition content
@@duncanmacleod2136i think you confuse composit with component
@@tacofortgens3471 No I mean component. The video on the tape is Y/C. Luma is separated from chroma. To further separate the chromas you have to process them. That’s not a good thing to do in the analog domain.
ComPOSite, the stress goes on the second syllable, always has.
I was educated at an elite Swiss lycée and that's the way our instructor, a former high-ranking US State Department official, pronounced it.