Better than the Panasonic ES10/15?
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- Опубліковано 8 сер 2024
- The Panasonic ES10 and ES15 (and ES16) have a richly earned reputation for taming video tape with tearing and flagging. You simply connect your VHS VCR to the video input and then connect the ES10/15/16 to your SD capture device. You therefore use the ES10/15/16 as a passthrough device and its internal circuitry apply a Line TBC effect to wavy videos.
In this video, I compared the Panasonic ES15 to the Panasonic EZ28 and the Pioneer DVR 649H-S. Spoiler alert: the Pioneer performed much better than I anticipated. It more-or-less matched the ES15 in anti-flagging abilities, it has more video and noise settings, and I think it avoids the well-known posteration effect (color palette compression) that is a side effect of using the ES10/15/16.
Please let me know if you have experience with the Pioneer DVR 649H-S and if you have been able to confirm the results in my video.
00:00 Intro
00:20 The three DVD recorders
02:18 Comparison test
05:02 ES15 versus Pioneer DVR 649H-S
06:10 Pioneer DVR 649H-S menu and video settings
08:28 Panasonic ES15 menu and video settings
08:45 ES15 lighter darker setting
08:57 ES15 versus Pioneer DVR 649H-S
11:08 Conclusion - Наука та технологія
It’s quite remarkable that any device can sort out that disastrous video signal. Very impressive.
Thanks for much for time and effort to create this video and the comparisons! One of the many things you showed is that there are effective lower cost options for improving analog video vs spending thousands of dollars for a standalone TBC. Kudos to you!
You're welcome. But to be clear, these devices have a line TBC to help prevent wavy and flaggy video image. Those very expensive frame TBC devices are for creating a stable signal, which is meant to prevent audio and video from going out of sync. In another video I argue that the average person was avoid the need for that by using the right settings in VirtualDub. Cheers.
Superb video on this topic. For my thoughts, I have the Pioneer DVR-560HX. It is the most amazing stand alone I have ever owned for everything from pass thru clean up, to even stand alone one off DVD disc recording. It corrects almost anything you throw at it. The set up is basically very similar to the 640H-S you mentioned with even a few more added 'deep dive' settings. I found a working spare recently for sale and snapped it up because I want a backup just in case my original were to die. Highly recommend!!
This is almost the device (mine doesn't have an X for DVB) that I want to test in Hamburg (PAL) via 4:4:4 HDMI out with a Blackmagic DeckLink Mini Recorder HD PCIe (2.0 or higher) card. At least when I've finally beaten Windows 10🤮
Pioneer's video adjustment menu is really impressive.
BTW, you can pull out the recorder's hard drive and use the software ISObuster to copy the video recordings to your encoding PC without having to burn a disc and then rip it.
@@CantankerousDave I want to have UNCOMPRESSED video (72GB/h) with complete noise.
@@TTVEaGMXde I've used that with one of the Sony variants (RDR-HX750) - it works really well though it requires going via a HDMI splitter to evade HDCP copy protection (doesn't matter whether you are playing copy protected material or not it doesn't connect at all without it same with panasonic dvd-recorders)
@@analogvideochannel4612 SONY and Panasonic are owners/co-owners of US film studios and therefore pay attention to copy protection, which can break your neck in the Consumer Electronics market. I already have 2 HDMI splitters that are supposed to work. But if they are too new, they no longer work, which is why "River" stopped selling them. I ordered them from a very small dealer (low turnover, old stock🙂) during the transition period
Another fantastic video, thanks for sharing your research and explaining everything so well! Look forward to seeing more videos.
depeche mode
7.5 is the correct black level setting for analog NTSC outside of Japan; there they used 0. In RGB terms, that equates to 16/16/16 and 235/235/235 for black and white versus 0/0/0 and 255/255/255.
Bob at RetroRGB interviewed an Australian developer who said that he uses a Panasonic DIGA Blu-ray player/HDD recorder for captures. Not as a passthrough, but to record to the hard drive. It has a LAN port, and he said that he just points VLC to it on his network and can grab the recordings straight off its drive. He says it straightens out the worst stuff he throws at it. They were common in Japan and Australia -- and they record in h264, not mpeg2 like my Philips DVDR3575H units (I've found two at local Goodwill stores for $11.99 a pop, complete with remotes and drives full of recordings). They're inexpensive enough that I might grab one to play around with.
Adding that the model numbers are the DMR-BW750 and 850. I have no idea if it can act as passthrough for lossless capturing downstream.
If anyone is looking for one of these - afaik the functionality is present in pioneers from at least the Pioneer DVR-_30 and newer models, and Sony RDR-HX_50 and newer. The sonys with this are basically using the same chipset (fron NEC) and firmware as the pioneers just with different branding (older Sonys are completely different and don't have this functionality so check up the manual that it has a similar menu with similar image options). I do think they can be a bit rare to find in the US though.
Can confirm the results in the video from my own testing (and have a video showing similar results on a PAL tape) - very good but not quite as good stabilization as the panasonics and a bit more prone to frame drops but much more configurable and also in case of eu/aus models don't have issues with clipping brights. And also as noted in other comment - EU/AUS models support PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 which is useful for digitizing NTSC tapes in Europe without needing a dedicated multi-system vcr (Both these and EU/AUS Panasonics can be switched to NTSC but Panas only support standard NTSC)
There are also one or two Toshiba models that are based around a similar chipset At least the european RD-XS24 which I have performs very similarly though the firmware is very different, it also has a bunch of options though no option for changing system. Most toshibas are very differt made by different OEMs though so not something to rely on.
IMO the ES15 is performing better throughout the side-by-side. At a few spots, the Pioneer has some rainbow-colored bands across the width of the screen that aren't as prominent on the Panasonic. Example at 5:39, middle of the screen, guy's shirt as he sits next to the bed. This same effect also pops up at the top of the screen.
Also, the Panasonic cleans up the skew beneath the head-switch at the bottom near-perfectly while the Pioneer leaves more wiggling and colour flicker. Theoretically, a tape with bad flagging at the top throughout would fair better using the Panasonic. I think comparisons on the forums have shown this to be true.
DMR-ES15 does have a Line-In NR On/Off control. It's just stupidly hidden: when set to line input, hit Display and navigate to Video.
Anyway, I agree with your comment that if one has both, it may be best to use the Pioneer for most tapes and reserve the Panasonic for the worst.
Thanks for the comparison and commentary. Another great video!
The Pioneer seems to have a little more flickering in the brightness. The Panasonic holds the brightness more steady.
Is that Captain Janeway at 3:00? I've never really seen her in anything prior to Voyager. That must make her Lt. Janeway at that point in time.... Lol
Yes, it is. And she is speaking with Jody Foster‘s dad from Contact.
Mrs. Columbo and also in Remo Williams.Kate was the Army officer in Remo Williams.
I have used the Panasonic ES-15 with passthrough quasi TBC for my 1976 Sanyo V-Cord2, 1977 Quasar VX and 1980 Technicolor CVC Micro video captures. It is a very easy to to use machine with great availability and price.
It does tend to increase overall brightness which can easily be compensated for with the free downloadable version of OBS Studio video capture software.
n o i s e c a n c e l i n g 😍💅💅✨️
Love the video. The ES-10's are dirt cheap to purchase faulty and cheap to fix. They work well on the signal as well. I have the Pioneers as well but never tried as pass thru.
Was curious about what you meant by faulty. So I visited your channel and watched your video where you replace faulty capacitors to get the ES10 working again: ua-cam.com/video/j88qpwyCGEI/v-deo.html
I would love to learn how to do that because as old electrics get old, I think our society needs a place for how to restore the best of these types of units.
There seems to be a bit of a loss of saturation on all the pass through examples. Could it be the capture device you are using?
0:54 you saved me from cancelling you! 🇨🇦 /s
Great machine
btw, it looks like you typo'd 0 as 9 every time the Pioneer model number appears in the video description.
What’s the name of the tv show you taped it looks like a good hospital drama
St. Elsewhere
I'm thinking you need to leave the Pioneer Black level centered. It makes sense that it has more contrast (compressed histogram) and has lost detail. Lost detail includes any perceived noise.
I have an ES15 and I wasn't all that impressed by it's passthrough. Perhaps I should give it another go.
great video! would love to pick one of these up if i can find it for cheap, my ES15 is having tray issues :(
I suppose you could use the ES15 to play a DVD to your television. But as a reminder, it is not advised to use the ES15 to record your VHS tapes. While the Line TBC is very helpful and works well, the circuitry that creates the mpeg2 files (vob files) are a weak point. So that's why the ES10/15/16 are recommended to be used as a passthrough device.
@@videocaptureguide oh im not using it to record, its just a pass through - i should have clarified that the tray is broken and goes in and out during passthrough and the little "tray closed, tray open" overlay appears on screen so sometimes randomly during an hour long capture it will open and close on its own and i have to restart so i dont have that little overlay on the screen
Oh my. That is weird problem. Maybe MacGyver it with some masking tape? Or will it still try to open and trigger the overlay?
@@choglatemilg might be fixable
@@videocaptureguide if i hold the tray in with my finger it will still try to open but then immediately close itself since it cant physically open, the display will still show "open/closed" and it will still overlay, boggles the mind a little bit haha. I have considered trying to uninstall the tray completely since I dont actually use this device for any disc operations. i want to avoid bricking it completely because it still works great for passthrough other than those weird little overlay/tray issues - probably just need to have a backup lined up in case i do end up bricking it.
ES15 hands down. It cleans up the colour abberations at the top of the screen.
My preference for capture is to use a stand-alone TBC/Frame Sync, and take the output from that to a Blackmagic Teranex which is able to do some terrific processing in real time, such as saturation, black level, Gain,, hue etc, but it also has a fantastic noise reduction that operates in a recursive way that helps reduce luma and chroma noise. It can also upscale/downscale the resolution as well as the format. Example, converting NTSC to PAL etc. The the output from the Teranex is fed via SDI to a Blackmagic SDI capture card in the computer, where I can capture full bitrate 8-bit or 10-bit YUV/RGB, Motion Jpeg, Quicktime uncompressed 8-bit/10-bit YUV/RGB, Quicktime DVCPRO HD and DPX 10-bit RGB.
I've found the Teranex 2D anyway creates these odd sort of motion trails, so it's not something I'd use personally unless you've found a way to correct that?
@@orihalcon8693 To be perfectly honest, I have never noticed that with my 2D at all. If I use the noise reduction that's built into the TBC instead which uses a frame blending technique, then I get noticeable trails.
But this is not a suggestion for a good and affordable TBC. The further processing is actually less important here.
For black levels, O IRE is what they use in Japan, and 7.5 IRE is what we use in America. Or used. That's a tl;dr on IRE, from what I've been able to learn.
Now that you mention it, I think I read that too and forgot. Anyway, at 8:03 I show the histogram of the same paused MiniDV tape with 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE. So, I guess I could have left it at 7.5 IRE and then adjusted the other settings to arrive at the same level.
If you look at the extreme left of the image, the Pioneer 640 has a bit of wobble to it still which means it isn't starting each video line exactly in the same place, which is basically the point of a line TBC. Definitely is better to use than not for the overall image improvement, but the ES15 does a little better at that specifically as there is no "left side wobble". Apparently the European models of the EZ series use a different chipset and can have the best of both worlds with an ES10/15 like effect, but also having HDMI output which can then be captured for a single analog to digital conversion in the chain. I do like the proc-amp features in the 640 though. Would be interesting to see a video on how changing the different noise reduction settings on the 640 actually affects the capture output.
Since we (and you) appreciate the objectiveness of your comparisons, you might want to look at acquiring a composite or S-Video waveform monitor/vectorscope. That is easier to visualize signal noise and levels. A histogram is similar, but different. It will also show you where black levels truly are (anything below 7.5IRE will be displayed as black). The brightest scenes should not have signals that exceed 100IRE which is basically 714mv and that will tell you if the output of your different players is truly hot or not. The dangers with levels exceeding 100IRE is that your capture card may clip levels beyond that assigning all values brighter than that to 100IRE which loses dynamic range and loses data permanently. If the capture card has automatic gain control that is working appropriately, it will dynamically reduce the brightness of the entire image to keep the max white level at or below 100IRE. This can make the picture look odd however if the image brightness appears to be moving up and down to compensate for this.
Thanks for this. I didn't notice that little wobble in the Pioneer 640 that you mention. Maybe the conclusion should be that the ES10/15 is best for very difficult tapes. However, for less extreme wavy tapes, the Pioneer might be a better choice because it produces a more pleasing color than the ES10/15.
Re S-Video waveform monitor/vectorscope, I feel like I don't have the expertise to understand what I would be seeing. But if I did get a used inexpensive one, which model would you recommend?
@@videocaptureguide The only series that I am aware of that have actual S-Video input/output plugs are the MagniMonitor branded ones which you will see some examples of on ebay. The catch with those is that certain models such as the MM400 have a proprietary power adapter that is hard to chase down, so you'd want a model like the MM410 that has a regular power input cable.
The absolute most budget and versitile option would be a Videotek VTM-100 if you're willing to mess with BNC adapters and 75 ohm terminators which is pretty straightforward. The VTM-100 can be had for $75 shipped or less and don't require odd power adapters, but you'll need to use S-Video to BNC cables if you want to feed it an S-Video signal - it actually requires the presence of composite at the same time as S-Video as a reference according to the manual, but that setup is pretty straightforward in the manual and all VCRs will have the simultaneous composite out to hook up. The specifications you can sometimes see online don't show S-Video (YC) as an input option, but the manual PDF online shows that it does support it an how to hook it up. It can also do waveform monitoring of component, composite video, and can also do audio level monitoring as a bonus. The beauty of that model specifically is that all of those signals can have "loopthrough" connectors so that the signal can be passed back out of the device and the signal isn't terminated at the device which some vectorscopes won't allow you to do with anything other than composite in a lot of cases. Most vectorscopes also won't let you look at component signals at all.
If you are just looking for luma levels and a general idea of chroma noise, looking at composite instead of S-Video will probably convey similar information as to whether noise is reduced or added and if luma levels are stable before and after a passthrough device in your video chain.
With both of the above, they output a composite signal to display the actual scope output, so you'll need another capture device for screen or video grabs or a composite monitor to view the output. This might be an ideal use for a DV firewire converter since we don't care about 4:1:1 colorspace when capturing a vectorscope and waveform monitor images. Any capture card will like the signal coming out of one of these monitors though since it is digitally generated and won't have timebase errors.
Yeah for the models sold in Europe and Australia the panasonic later models work similarly to the ES15, they kept using a chipset from panasonic, while on the north american models they use a completely different chipset originally developed by LSI logic (later branded magnum+ some off the shelf video decoder IC without the same tbc features). Not sure when it comes to japanese models. So afaik in north america you only really have the choice of the 2005 and 2006 models sans the es20 and I think es40 which also use a similar chipset to the later models and lack the tbc functionality (though not entirely sure about the es40) - that being afaik DMR-ES10, ES30, EH50, ES15, ES16, ES25 ES35, EH55 and EH75 and I think ES45V. The even older models may or may not work to some degree.
One issue on the european/australian models is that they have a tendency to clip whites in some cases, which is one bonus of using the pioneer/sony dvd-recorders as demonstrated in this video even though the tbc/stabilization isn't quite as good. The Euro/aus variants of those also have support for PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 which is very useful for digitizing NTSC tapes as a lot of pal decks can output that while the EU/Aus Panasonics only have support for standard NTSC which requries a proper multi-system or US vcr. The US variants of either don't have the ability to switch between pal and ntsc afaik.
i will take any alternative to the es-15 lol, starting to get insanely price gouged
I guess I got lucky -- I got mine off eBay for about $45. (Plus a few bucks for a compatible replacement remote off of Amazon.)
@@CantankerousDave ebay looking like around $60 + $20 shipping for tested working with no remote, so probably around $80-$100 w/ tax for a fully working ES15
Will the VHS signal come out of the HDMI on the EZ28?
Yes it does. I don't know how it compared to dedicated HD upscalers like the RetroTink. But I connected an SVHS player via svideo cable (and later composite) with RCA audio cables and it outputs to HDTV in passthrough.
I have a Sony RDR-HXD890 which are essentially clones of the Pioneer. Runs the same firmware with all those same enhancement options.
The only thing I do is I record to the unit itself then rip on the PC.
The European version does not have a Hosiden/Mini DIN S-Video input socket. For me that's a deal breaker.
@@TTVEaGMXde Just use SCART, and yes it has an S-VIDEO din, on the front under the flap.
I just use SCART for all signals, you can select composite, S-VIDEO and RGB in the Sony input menus
@@dlarge6502 Scart is NOT contact-safe, and I reject front inputs as a professional solution. I once had to invest in an Oehlbach Scart cable (looked silver, but was sold as gold) to get a secure contact in a SONY LCD TV Scart socket. Front AV has a long, unshielded ribbon cable and the risk of breaking the front socket because high-quality S-Video cables have a large bending radius in the room.
I think I have a pretty good recorder now. I replaced the failing drive inside my Crappy Curtis unit with a computer Pionner drive 📀🤣
Pioneer DVR with HDD is great until you need to manipulate its HDD. The recording format is so encrypted, that no PC can read the HDD content. It uses some proprietary file system and codec/encryption nobody managed to break up by now. The only way to copy/move/save you HDD recordings is to either record them onto DVD or to play back them and capture via analog output.
So, if your HDD breaks, you'd most likely loose all the files on the HDD. Funny part, HDD can break if it's too full (yes, HDD may be in perfect shape, but if it gets too full and the recorder cannot write some additional files on it, it will report "HDD error" and all your videos will get lost.
If HDD actually broke or you want to recover your functional but full HDD, you'll need a special remote control available only to the authorised service centers, and, of course, they'll charge you for that. You may buy the remote via e.g., Ebay, but it will probably cost you more than a new HDD - just to push one button on that "special" remote only once! Fun fact: this "special" function will FORMAT your old HDD and ERASE all your videos, but will make it work again. The DVR would see it as a new, empty HDD. You can install the new HDD the same way.
Try PC cloning, you say? Well, it seems that Pioneer's format saves the size of the HDD, so if you use different size HDD, cloning wouldn't work. If you try the same size HDD, than you'd be cloning the error that made the original HDD unusable, so the new HDD also wouldn't work in the DVR.
Therefore, two golden rules when using your Pioneer DVR with built in HDD for storage: NEVER fill its HDD more that two-thirds of its capacity, (i.e, erase old videos regularly) and copy your favourite videos to DVDs as soon as possible!
Isobuster is able to extract video from many Pioneer DVD hard drives - have used it successfully here, it’s very straightforward and just extracts recordings as regular MPEG files.
@@MrAntbox good to know that the problem with Pioneer HDDs has finally being solved.
Pioneer/Sony wins now everybody knows. Putting aside the fact it can record onto the HDD up to 15 Mb/s mpeg2 ,files are extractable to a computer if you 're not a dummy... Enuff demonstratred
just get a proper TBC
Type and price🤣for a proper TBC available in large quantities is missing here