At the end he said that Australians reduce 'Good day' down to 'G'day'. He then said that they take the OO that they'd discarded and use it later in a ridiculous place name. Some place like Wallagoolagong or the like.
The place names he's referring to are the ones named after aboriginal words or place names like Woolongong etc. We have some long ones and ones that are hard for foreigner to say but really they're not that hard.
Took my American ex forever to not struggle pronouncing Mooloolaba, Caloundra, Maroochydore etc. I think it would be like us trying to pronounce Swahili! Even Victorians up here on holiday can't pronounce Noosa properly.
English is an evolving language and has always been that way. We also had different names for single items and multiple items (singular/plurals), like goose and geese. The Vikings changed that, as it was difficult enough to learn another language and also have to learn the different terms for single or multiple items. So, they just added an 's' at the end of a single item to mean more of them. And, as they had big swords, it kind of worked. The English language is full of history.
That’s not completely correct. Old Norse and Anglo Saxon were close enough that they could talk to each other in their own languages with only minor confusion over certain words. The adding “s” for plurals existed in Anglo Saxon, for example “Cloud” would be “Clūd” singularly, but “Clūdas” for plural. While goose/geese was “gōs” and “gēs” in Anglo Saxon and Old Norse “gás” and “gæss”. You can still see the similarity today with Scandinavian languages, for example: “the little green grasshopper sits in the long grass under the birch tree” In Norwegian: “Den lille grønne gresshoppen sitter i det lange gresset under bjørketreet”
Where do Australians go in London? Aussie expats in London go to: Hammersmith. Fulham. Bethnal Green. Clapham. Highbury. Islington. The plural of Lego is Lego, just as sheep is sheep.
@@Rodney-kv4kr My son and I, visiting Sydney from England, took refuge from a tropical thunderstorm in the Wooloomooloo Bay Hotel. Got pissed. Great place!
Years ago Gordon Ramsay did a cooking show called Hells Kitchen and in one of the first series Al Murray was in one of the teams competing and Gordon treated them all in his trademark style (badly) and Al particularly. Gordon went on to make the series in the US with American cooking hopefuls as he built an international reputation. That's why Gordon would be upset that Al would have beaten him in a cooking challenge. There is a video of a BBC documentary on the London restaurant kitchen of the first young new breed of celebrity chef of the 1980s, still going strong today and who was a very young winner of a Micheline Star, Marco Pierre White. In the program the young sous chef Gordon is reduced to tears on camera by the criticism from Marco.
It's 6am here on a Sunday when you posted.. I'm guessing most of your subs are british so if you post later you will get more views faster.. better for the algorithm 😉
At the end it's like language turned into math: instead of double 0's it's like two zeros, so you just cut them out of the equation and instead of Good Day you get G'day! XD therefore, now that i think about it, the "Australians stripped the English Language down to it's bare bones" part XDDD
I know you are both teachers, but in britain in the past, schools and teachers were very different. I left school aged 15 in 1972. All through my schooldays we were punished with legal corporal punishment called caning. Where for the slightest misdemeanor we were hit on our hands or legs with a 3 foot bamboo cane, leaving large bruises where we had been hit. Some teachers never caned any pupils, but some seemed to enjoy it .I can remembet many teachers who singled some boys out with daily canings. Even though we knew we about to be caned a lot of times the teacher would be looking for a cane on top of the blackboard, if they could'nt find on, they had the nerve to send us to other classes in order to bring a cane back for them to hit me with. Some of the teachers had names for the canes, they would say to us, go to a certain class and bring back peter the whaler or stingray. My worse teacher who despised me for god knows why was a Miss Brown when I was 9 years old. She hit me every day. Because in those days all the boys wore shorts. Even if I dropped a pencil she would haul me out in front of class, she would either pull my shorts up so high and slap my legs around 30 times leaving handprints , but she would then pull the legs of my shorts back down to cover all the handmarks. She hit me everyday and would put 5 or 6 wooden 12 inch rulers together she would hit me so many times across my hands, back of hands and my legs that the rulers would often break into pieces and fly all around the classroom. The worse assault from this psycho was a girl in my class got a pair of eyeglasses and the bell rang for us to go home. The boy who I was walking downstairs with called the girl 4 eyes and she was crying. Miss Brown came out of her class and said what's wrong and the girl said he called me 4 eyes. She grabbed me by my hair and dragged me back into our classroom, both girls were saying it wasn't him it was the other boy. She took me and both girls into her classroom and grabbed hold of a cane while she tightly held my arm out she began hittin me as hard as she could, the 2 girls kept saying it wasn't him, she continued hitting me. At this time both girls were crying watching me being hit for something I didn't do. I was just 9 years old but I had never been caned so many times. Even though I was so young, I was being hit repeatedly 20 to 30 times, I knew this wasn't right, I looked at her mad face , she looked crazy in some sort of frenzy. After being hit around 25 times, I thought this is going to stop. She hit me the last time, I grabbed hold of the cane, she was trying to pull it from my hands, but I kept hold of it and wouldn't let go. She was struggling to get the cane from my grip, but I wouldn't let go. I looked at her and my eyes must have expressed my anger and hatred of her, her mad face was in a frenzy. Once I grabbed hold of the cane and she couldn't get it out of my grip, she seemed to snap back into reality, her mad facial expression changed. She put the cane down and screamed at me to get out. The funny thing is, I never ever told my parents about any punishments. Some parents came to the school threatening to beat the teachers up. Corporal punishment was legal in my schooldays, we continued to be caned up until I left school in 1972, I think either 1972 or 1973 corporal punishment was abolished. Some teachers tried to cane us when we were older but we would tell them to f off and some boys actually beat the teachers up. Sorry for droning on so long. Love and peace.
Just got tickets to Al Murrays 2024 tour , May 2024......£32 each...same price all seats...we are in the stalls about halfway back so we may catch some flak !
Americans use math instead of mathematics (maths). If it was 5x5, then maybe math, but if you do addition or something else to the sum it is plural. I'm sorry but it makes it plural and deserves an S.
English is the easiest language to learn ... you can make some horrendous mistakes and get all sorts wrong but you will still be able to make yourself understood. Mispronounce a vowel in French and you've either said something you didn't want to say or whatever you've said will not be understood at all.🙃😉
For English you have German/Dutch/Gaelic, French (for 3 centuries post 1066 we spoke ancient french) not forgetting Latin and a smattering of Nordic viking... The spellings are all over the place mostly because that far back most people couldn't read or write so it fell to a few to create and formalise the written English language, which of course changed over a considerable timescale... For the spoken word even though we have Latin roots the predominant source was Germanic and therefore English is NOT a romance language like Spanish, Portuguese, French and Italian. Americans received a heavy injection of the French verbal contraction after their independence. Not surprising given the close relationship they had and the support they received from them. You even named a game after a French Nobel man and military leader who fought along side you, and then forgot who he was...
Only the ruling class ( the Normans) spoke French, and that was mainly in the Royal Court, the main population stuck to ( and won) by speaking in their own Anglo-Saxon language!
@@Dave.Thatcher1 In 1072 only one of the 12 earls in England was an Englishman. For several generations after the conquest the important positions and the great estates were almost held by Normans or men of foreign blood. Norman prelates occupied important positions in the church. The appearance of manuals from about 1250 for the teaching of French is significant. In the 14th century poets and writers often preface their works with an explanation of the language employed and incidentally indulge from time to time in valuable observations of a more general linguistic nature. In the 15th century, letters public and private, the acts and records of towns, guilds, and the central government, were in French. Good enough?
@@daveofyorkshire301 you're talking about what happened amongst the ruling elite, I was highlighting what the ordinary Angle Saxon held to in their language .. .good enough?
@@Dave.Thatcher1 I said "we spoke ancient french for 3 century's" since the writing and reading was done by the "ruling elite", isn't it reasonable to say "we spoke"? Since the slave and the peasant were hardly literate or even known in number or disbursement until William the Conquerors Doomsday book, it impossible to "know" prior to that because records just didn't exist, and if they did they would probably have been in Latin written by monks. The spoken Anglo-Saxon language you refer too would have been regional and built on raiding nations from the 5th to 10th century, and based upon which faction had invaded your village your dialect could be very different... and equally obscure since the raiding records are minimal to non-existant prior to a unified England. You're forgetting Gaelic, Celtic, Latin, Welsh, several Germanic dialects including Frankish (another Germanic tribe/Gaul), Nordic/viking... It wasn't until Queen Elizabeth I that uniformity in language - starting with prayer and payer books were in a fixed language...
@@daveofyorkshire301 The peasants of the day were denied education. It was another way an Elite was able to keep the populace in check......keep 'em dumb, and under the thumb! We have a somewhat similar situation today, and that is in how many things from the MSM, to the internet is increasingly curtailing free speech.....and it';s getting worse by the day! How many hairs do you want to split on this issue?!
English is a mess of a language because it's a mix of Germanic, French, Scandinavian and Gaelic languages. There's even soma Latin and Indian in there. That's why the rules are so inconsistent. This is due to the invasions of Britain in the past and later the pervasiveness of the British Empire. If you take a look at the place names in Australia you will see where all the double Os from G'day have gone to.
My god, you would expect teachers regardless of what western country they are from and teach in to know that Australia is known for very long almost unpronounceable place names from Aborigines, and these long place names invariably include a couple of double oo’s. No wonder US education only produces people with next to no idea about the rest of the world. I suggest American teachers need a more rounded education before they are charged with educating children.
That’s funny. That’s what you’re hung up on? People love to make fun of Americans for anything. There is a lot we don’t know. Never thought that fact would be an example of Americans being dumb. I have a serious question for you. What occupation do you currently have and how long have you held that job? It’s hilarious that you expect teachers to know everything like longer last names from Australia as a prerequisite to teach elementary school.
I would doubt ,if youwent back to one of the earliest civilisations in the World,Ancient Eygypt,that you could find even one single person who spoke English.Neither ,to make it plain to the bigots, did Jesus speak it,it is a language that did not exist until the late medieval period in England
What language are you both talking in .Sounds like gobledegook to me . PS I' m 100% English speaking. Here in England Al is regarded as a genius level comedian for creating this character ,universally recognised as a classic example of a bigoted English pub landlord,and we really love him. As a matter of indisputable historical fact ,the English came to drink so much beer was because people were dying in their thousands and it took years to discover that it was the public water supply that was poisoning them .It took a long time to regain confidence in water again.
The most common (numerous) name in the world is Wong. The most common (low class) name in the world is Tracey. And Murray is pronounced Murray; not Murr-ay! not Murr-ae! It is pronounced Murray, like Bill Murray. So that's you Yanks being dozy again, isn't it? lol lol lol 😂🤣😅🤣😂🤣😅🤣😂💛 And the Ozie's and Kiwis clip lots of vowels out of their language. E.G. Good Day becomes G'day! They save up the vowels they save, and use them in Ozie and Kiwi place names; which are regularly Aboriginal. Here is Wikipedia's list of Aboriginal place names: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_place_names_of_Aboriginal_origin ...and the pronunciation is often not as straight forward as the spelling.
At the end he said that Australians reduce 'Good day' down to 'G'day'. He then said that they take the OO that they'd discarded and use it later in a ridiculous place name. Some place like Wallagoolagong or the like.
Wollongong, woolloomooloo, boroondara, Bundoora, Wangaratta, Wagga Wagga, Wonthaggi, Mullumbimby Murrumbidgee, Toowoomba,
Whyalla, Kooyong…
Always double letters in there - often double O’s.
@@goldboy150 Kangaroo and Kookaburra.
@@mazza4190 not place names lol
It's soo sad that any explanation is necessary. 😞
Don't forget Koonoomoo, in northern Victoria. 👍
He has an honours degree from Oxford in Modern History, he's made some very good documentaries on WW2, you should watch them.
Gday from Wooloomooloo, NSW Australia.
The place names he's referring to are the ones named after aboriginal words or place names like Woolongong etc. We have some long ones and ones that are hard for foreigner to say but really they're not that hard.
Took my American ex forever to not struggle pronouncing Mooloolaba, Caloundra, Maroochydore etc. I think it would be like us trying to pronounce Swahili! Even Victorians up here on holiday can't pronounce Noosa properly.
We save up our "o"s for the signs to Wooloomooloo
English is an evolving language and has always been that way. We also had different names for single items and multiple items (singular/plurals), like goose and geese. The Vikings changed that, as it was difficult enough to learn another language and also have to learn the different terms for single or multiple items. So, they just added an 's' at the end of a single item to mean more of them. And, as they had big swords, it kind of worked. The English language is full of history.
Well that explains goose and geese
@@davidclarke1973 😂😂😂😂
That’s not completely correct. Old Norse and Anglo Saxon were close enough that they could talk to each other in their own languages with only minor confusion over certain words. The adding “s” for plurals existed in Anglo Saxon, for example “Cloud” would be “Clūd” singularly, but “Clūdas” for plural. While goose/geese was “gōs” and “gēs” in Anglo Saxon and Old Norse “gás” and “gæss”. You can still see the similarity today with Scandinavian languages, for example:
“the little green grasshopper sits in the long grass under the birch tree”
In Norwegian:
“Den lille grønne gresshoppen sitter i det lange gresset under bjørketreet”
love the way he portrays the english landlord, hilarious
Where do Australians go in London?
Aussie expats in London go to:
Hammersmith.
Fulham.
Bethnal Green.
Clapham.
Highbury.
Islington.
The plural of Lego is Lego, just as sheep is sheep.
The last comment refers to using the 'oo' in good for a place name as in Wooloomooloo. It's a wharf area in Sydney harbour near the bridge.
Is the pub , the bunch of grapes still there,
@@Rodney-kv4kr My son and I, visiting Sydney from England, took refuge from a tropical thunderstorm in the Wooloomooloo Bay Hotel. Got pissed. Great place!
As a Norwegian i can tell you that English is super easy compared to f.ex Spanish 😎🇧🇻
We simplified it so the continentals could grasp it. you're welcome. 😉😂
Good to know!!
Easy but can you say Worcestershire?!
Re the bread pudding challenge, it was a blind test, as in the tasters were blindfolded at the time of tasting
The bit you missed: You take that double O (from good day) and use it later in a ridiculous place name.
using the double-OO saved from reducing " Gooday " to "G'ay '' & using it later - eg Toowoomba ( a town in Queensland )
Al Murray probably put beer in his dish!
@Jodi Al vs Gordon Ramsey was indeed a blind taste test.
Good to know!! Thank you!
Years ago Gordon Ramsay did a cooking show called Hells Kitchen and in one of the first series Al Murray was in one of the teams competing and Gordon treated them all in his trademark style (badly) and Al particularly. Gordon went on to make the series in the US with American cooking hopefuls as he built an international reputation. That's why Gordon would be upset that Al would have beaten him in a cooking challenge.
There is a video of a BBC documentary on the London restaurant kitchen of the first young new breed of celebrity chef of the 1980s, still going strong today and who was a very young winner of a Micheline Star, Marco Pierre White. In the program the young sous chef Gordon is reduced to tears on camera by the criticism from Marco.
Do you guys speak to your students about Al Murray? His knowledge of the world is amazing and kids listening would learn a lot.
I have to hit the like on every video I watch so I can tell if I have watched it before! 😂
It's 6am here on a Sunday when you posted.. I'm guessing most of your subs are british so if you post later you will get more views faster.. better for the algorithm 😉
At the end it's like language turned into math: instead of double 0's it's like two zeros, so you just cut them out of the equation and instead of Good Day you get G'day! XD therefore, now that i think about it, the "Australians stripped the English Language down to it's bare bones" part XDDD
I know you are both teachers, but in britain in the past, schools and teachers were very different. I left school aged 15 in 1972. All through my schooldays we were punished with legal corporal punishment called caning. Where for the slightest misdemeanor we were hit on our hands or legs with a 3 foot bamboo cane, leaving large bruises where we had been hit. Some teachers never caned any pupils, but some seemed to enjoy it .I can remembet many teachers who singled some boys out with daily canings. Even though we knew we about to be caned a lot of times the teacher would be looking for a cane on top of the blackboard, if they could'nt find on, they had the nerve to send us to other classes in order to bring a cane back for them to hit me with. Some of the teachers had names for the canes, they would say to us, go to a certain class and bring back peter the whaler or stingray. My worse teacher who despised me for god knows why was a Miss Brown when I was 9 years old. She hit me every day. Because in those days all the boys wore shorts. Even if I dropped a pencil she would haul me out in front of class, she would either pull my shorts up so high and slap my legs around 30 times leaving handprints , but she would then pull the legs of my shorts back down to cover all the handmarks. She hit me everyday and would put 5 or 6 wooden 12 inch rulers together she would hit me so many times across my hands, back of hands and my legs that the rulers would often break into pieces and fly all around the classroom. The worse assault from this psycho was a girl in my class got a pair of eyeglasses and the bell rang for us to go home. The boy who I was walking downstairs with called the girl 4 eyes and she was crying. Miss Brown came out of her class and said what's wrong and the girl said he called me 4 eyes. She grabbed me by my hair and dragged me back into our classroom, both girls were saying it wasn't him it was the other boy. She took me and both girls into her classroom and grabbed hold of a cane while she tightly held my arm out she began hittin me as hard as she could, the 2 girls kept saying it wasn't him, she continued hitting me. At this time both girls were crying watching me being hit for something I didn't do. I was just 9 years old but I had never been caned so many times. Even though I was so young, I was being hit repeatedly 20 to 30 times, I knew this wasn't right, I looked at her mad face , she looked crazy in some sort of frenzy. After being hit around 25 times, I thought this is going to stop. She hit me the last time, I grabbed hold of the cane, she was trying to pull it from my hands, but I kept hold of it and wouldn't let go. She was struggling to get the cane from my grip, but I wouldn't let go. I looked at her and my eyes must have expressed my anger and hatred of her, her mad face was in a frenzy. Once I grabbed hold of the cane and she couldn't get it out of my grip, she seemed to snap back into reality, her mad facial expression changed. She put the cane down and screamed at me to get out. The funny thing is, I never ever told my parents about any punishments. Some parents came to the school threatening to beat the teachers up. Corporal punishment was legal in my schooldays, we continued to be caned up until I left school in 1972, I think either 1972 or 1973 corporal punishment was abolished. Some teachers tried to cane us when we were older but we would tell them to f off and some boys actually beat the teachers up. Sorry for droning on so long. Love and peace.
Jodie was great in the matrix
Australian place names with oo's Wallamaroo 😁
There are many placenames in Aus which have double-O, sometimes two lots.
Just got tickets to Al Murrays 2024 tour , May 2024......£32 each...same price all seats...we are in the stalls about halfway back so we may catch some flak !
Australia was originally a penal colony. If you had money you migrated to New Zealand. If you were a refugee you migrated to the US.
Bread and butter pudding.
Save thew o's up to use in ridiculous place names. There are a lot of places in Australia that have double o's in the name.
Let us hope the English Language is a slowly evolving language. Kardashian is not the future of communication.
Americans use math instead of mathematics (maths). If it was 5x5, then maybe math, but if you do addition or something else to the sum it is plural. I'm sorry but it makes it plural and deserves an S.
........AND Woolloomooloo
It was a fish pie
There's a difference between academic English and spoken English.
There is only one English language . We have lots of dialects.
they have a lot of ooos in there place names
English is the easiest language to learn ... you can make some horrendous mistakes and get all sorts wrong but you will still be able to make yourself understood. Mispronounce a vowel in French and you've either said something you didn't want to say or whatever you've said will not be understood at all.🙃😉
plural and masculine, one is more than one and the other is la or le. That would be the French language for masculine and feminine.
Can you do a Ross Noble vid?
He says to save it up for a ridiculous place name.
English from Old English Norse French Greek Latin Celtic
Sir and mam please react on the are you brainwashed about india .It is a humble request to both of you sir and mam 🙏
goolagong
For English you have German/Dutch/Gaelic, French (for 3 centuries post 1066 we spoke ancient french) not forgetting Latin and a smattering of Nordic viking...
The spellings are all over the place mostly because that far back most people couldn't read or write so it fell to a few to create and formalise the written English language, which of course changed over a considerable timescale...
For the spoken word even though we have Latin roots the predominant source was Germanic and therefore English is NOT a romance language like Spanish, Portuguese, French and Italian.
Americans received a heavy injection of the French verbal contraction after their independence. Not surprising given the close relationship they had and the support they received from them. You even named a game after a French Nobel man and military leader who fought along side you, and then forgot who he was...
Only the ruling class ( the Normans) spoke French, and that was mainly in the Royal Court, the main population stuck to ( and won) by speaking in their own Anglo-Saxon language!
@@Dave.Thatcher1 In 1072 only one of the 12 earls in England was an Englishman. For several generations after the conquest the important positions and the great estates were almost held by Normans or men of foreign blood. Norman prelates occupied important positions in the church.
The appearance of manuals from about 1250 for the teaching of French is significant. In the 14th century poets and writers often preface their works with an explanation of the language employed and incidentally indulge from time to time in valuable observations of a more general linguistic nature. In the 15th century, letters public and private, the acts and records of towns, guilds, and the central government, were in French.
Good enough?
@@daveofyorkshire301 you're talking about what happened amongst the ruling elite, I was highlighting what the ordinary Angle Saxon held to in their language .. .good enough?
@@Dave.Thatcher1 I said "we spoke ancient french for 3 century's" since the writing and reading was done by the "ruling elite", isn't it reasonable to say "we spoke"?
Since the slave and the peasant were hardly literate or even known in number or disbursement until William the Conquerors Doomsday book, it impossible to "know" prior to that because records just didn't exist, and if they did they would probably have been in Latin written by monks.
The spoken Anglo-Saxon language you refer too would have been regional and built on raiding nations from the 5th to 10th century, and based upon which faction had invaded your village your dialect could be very different... and equally obscure since the raiding records are minimal to non-existant prior to a unified England.
You're forgetting Gaelic, Celtic, Latin, Welsh, several Germanic dialects including Frankish (another Germanic tribe/Gaul), Nordic/viking...
It wasn't until Queen Elizabeth I that uniformity in language - starting with prayer and payer books were in a fixed language...
@@daveofyorkshire301 The peasants of the day were denied education. It was another way an Elite was able to keep the populace in check......keep 'em dumb, and under the thumb!
We have a somewhat similar situation today, and that is in how many things from the MSM, to the internet is increasingly curtailing free speech.....and it';s getting worse by the day!
How many hairs do you want to split on this issue?!
Later on
All of books plays language etc use only 26 letters of the alphabet.
Good job guys. The World Cup is coming up.. hint for a reaction on England fans.
English is a mess of a language because it's a mix of Germanic, French, Scandinavian and Gaelic languages. There's even soma Latin and Indian in there. That's why the rules are so inconsistent. This is due to the invasions of Britain in the past and later the pervasiveness of the British Empire.
If you take a look at the place names in Australia you will see where all the double Os from G'day have gone to.
Indian? You sure simpo
You talked through a lot of what Murray was saying, making yourselves not hear it & so that we couldn't hear it either.
My god, you would expect teachers regardless of what western country they are from and teach in to know that Australia is known for very long almost unpronounceable place names from Aborigines, and these long place names invariably include a couple of double oo’s. No wonder US education only produces people with next to no idea about the rest of the world. I suggest American teachers need a more rounded education before they are charged with educating children.
That’s funny. That’s what you’re hung up on? People love to make fun of Americans for anything. There is a lot we don’t know. Never thought that fact would be an example of Americans being dumb.
I have a serious question for you. What occupation do you currently have and how long have you held that job? It’s hilarious that you expect teachers to know everything like longer last names from Australia as a prerequisite to teach elementary school.
I would doubt ,if youwent back to one of the earliest civilisations in the World,Ancient Eygypt,that you could find even one single person who spoke English.Neither ,to make it plain to the bigots, did Jesus speak it,it is a language that did not exist until the late medieval period in England
What language are you both talking in .Sounds like gobledegook to me . PS I' m 100% English speaking. Here in England Al is regarded as a genius level comedian for creating this character ,universally recognised as a classic example of a bigoted English pub landlord,and we really love him. As a matter of indisputable historical fact ,the English came to drink so much beer was because people were dying in their thousands and it took years to discover that it was the public water supply that was poisoning them .It took a long time to regain confidence in water again.
The most common (numerous) name in the world is Wong.
The most common (low class) name in the world is Tracey.
And Murray is pronounced Murray; not Murr-ay! not Murr-ae!
It is pronounced Murray, like Bill Murray.
So that's you Yanks being dozy again, isn't it? lol lol lol 😂🤣😅🤣😂🤣😅🤣😂💛
And the Ozie's and Kiwis clip lots of vowels out of their language.
E.G. Good Day becomes G'day!
They save up the vowels they save, and use them in Ozie and Kiwi place names; which are regularly Aboriginal.
Here is Wikipedia's list of Aboriginal place names: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_place_names_of_Aboriginal_origin
...and the pronunciation is often not as straight forward as the spelling.