The “game allows you to do bad things and then tells you you’re a bad person” makes me think of This War Of Mine. You *can* easily rob defenseless people, but your in game characters get depressed, and if you do enough things that impact the morale of the characters it can mechanically spiral to the point of the characters in-fighting, drinking (which wastes resources and makes them ineffective), or leaving entirely.
Pretty good points here. I like the "I don't want to make FallOut 2, I want to make a new IP" attitude so much. When nowadays, a lot of games are milked franchises, and there is so much hype behind them and it's the same rehashed thing again and again. Or this retro-revival trend. I get it from a business perspective though, it's more of a selling point to say you are making the next iteration of a popular franchise than an entirely new IP that doesn't ring any bells to most gamers and could be risky. But then again, for me games that reached part 3 (like Dark souls 1,2,3, Borderlands 1,2,3, etc..) is the point where you stop and do an entirely new thing, not go at number 4,5,6,7,...,20. You also might have reached the peak with the 2nd or 3rd installment, and it's harder to aim higher than some masterpiece you have created before, it's more stressful and challenging, because if 2 or 3 was really really good, how should 4 be?
Arcanum's setting is a great mishmash of themes. I'm playing it now for the first time. It's really unique and I appreciate the game for not holding your hand much, although I wish the UI was more intuitive. I have to say if I was recommending the game to friends I would tell them to reference the manual before and throughout their playthrough. I was told to avoid guns, so of course I went guns and I'm enjoying the extra challenge. 😂
I'm glad you get to work on new IPs but you've no idea how much I wish the current directors of Fallout shared your preferences. The replayability of New Vegas vs FO3/FO4 is not even comparable with the depth of player choices. I'm thankful Josh leaned more in your artistic direction than Bethesda's. Still praying Obsidian get to make another Fallout now that Microsoft own both companies!
I loved KOTOR 2 for its grey role play, which was made by Obsidian too. In Kotor 2 you were never completely evil or completely good, and it was difficult to find the right answer in the dialogue that would lead to one or the other. It was a very nice shade of grey.
Tim you hit the nail right on the head. Player agency is key to a great RPG. It's about F*cking around and finding out what those consequences are and having fun building your character. Too many games today feel too linear, as if they are movies. Great video!
I have been working on a game as a hobby, and thank you for all of your talks; they are greatly inspiring and interesting to listen to! I have been mostly improvising my development (since I am still learning best practices, there is inherently a lot of back-tracking, so extra re-work is expected anyway), and am currently implementing "player reactivity" through a Set of strings. If the player does something for the first time (meets a character, visits a new area, uses a mechanic, picks up an item, hits a progression block, etc), I add a unique string to the set, and anytime I want to check if the character has done it, I search the set for that tag. I then use that to present unique dialog with NPCs (and ultimately lead into endgame results). I would love to hear more from you about the specific programming details of handling mechanics like this (if you haven't already covered it, and I missed it).
Hi Tim, just wanted to say I think you're completely right about disadvantages, I really wish this had/would become a staple in rpg games. The only other game I've played where I thought it was pretty successful was in Daggerfall where the reason why you voluntarily give yourself a disadvantage, like a phobia to an enemy type, or being forbidden to use a weapon/armour type, was so that you could then give yourself an advantage like fire immunity. Things that have an actual, tangible affect on the playstyle and imprint on the character. Maybe it could be a simple point system where for every disadvantage you give yourself you get a point to spend on an advantage. It's a bit discouraging that many modern rpgs think of character creation as not much more than customising your appearance.
what are some of your favorite isometric single-player RPGs? edit: I mean I’m aware you don’t like to rate other people’s games, I’m just looking to get into some more RPGs after Fallout and Arcanum, and would’ve liked some pointers :)
I'm not Tim but try Neverwinter Nights. Not isometric, but close enough - it's full 3D, but I think that you can lock the camera at a similar angle; or just play with a camera closely following your character which is always an option. It is worth noting that the game is in real-time with tactical pause, but combat is pretty well-paced. It is based on DnD system after all. If you will like it then go for the sequel and/or Dragon Age: Origins also made by BioWare. Plus I hear that Planescape: Torment is pretty good. I personally liked Planet Alcatraz back in the days, but I don't know how it will work for you - it is a Russian game, so you will be dealing with a translation and some things may appear quite off-colour. Just remember not to take it too seriously if you will actually decide to give it a try.
I have to say, Flaws were a great mechanic. My friends and I love character flaws in games and will pick them voluntarily when given the chance. So having that built in to the Outer Worlds was amazing! Also I have done at least one playthrough where I take every flaw presented to me, and it was so fun.
13:58 thankfully, thats a very common sentiment in the tabletop space. but i fear the profitability of video games will preclude it. just look at the nemesis system
I'd love a discussion on Complexity vs Complication and the merits and detriments of both. I of course have my own views on both, but I'd love to hear yours.
i'd love to see a video on your development environment, what IDE's do you like to use? what tools? what's your philosophy on programming? development process?
Love these videos and love even more that there's a new one every day! You give me so much to think about every time and its grounded, thoughtful information. Keep up the good work! How do I pay you to cut down my magnum opus, pie in the sky, dream game(s) into something I can actually accomplish before I die?!?
Thank you for making this series. This is basically a masterclass on a lot of factors of the business, and you're giving it away for free! Have you considered connecting with AA studios to make games from your ideas for you? Like a Tim Cain franchise deal? Everything that you're saying points to the facts that you're frustrated with AAA and their lack of risk taking, your admiration of the burgeoning indie scene, and that you're full of ideas but semi retired. It seems to me that, if you could get in touch with some AA devs or indie studios, you could take on advisory roles and give them an idea for one of your many worlds that you want to flesh out. I guess what I'm saying is that you have journals full of worlds to explore, but there's only one you, and you're a finite resource, and if you could get others to render your visions, more of your work could see the light of day before you go from semi to fully retired.
Do you have any preference for either deterministic or dice roll skill checks in single player computer RPGs? You've been involved with games that use both.
Hi Tim! What do you think could be done in new game with factions (like New Vegas, Deadfire) - what would be the next step? Just more factions? Any interesting ideas?
Gah! Too many factions and fractions and fragments already. ;) I'd like to see a more integral approach to conflict resolution in RPGs. Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sick and tired of being told to "pick a faction and DESTROY the rest." Whatever happened to empathy, mutual understanding, respect and cooperation? Fallout 76 tells us everyone in W. Va. died due to their mutual suspicion and, often, exploitation of one another. Wouldn't it be a breath of fresh air to have the opportunity to get all the factions on the same page and working toward a common goal for a change?
I think the next step is schism, where you have the option of splitting one of the factions into two new factions, but I fear that when it does show up, it will be overused.
nonlinear stories, keeping the player character as 'pure' as possible from prewritten influences (as well as an "undeclared morality"), a world that reacts to the player, etc. make games infinitely more enjoyable for me, and its why ive become so fond of yours. even among my favorite games of all time, ones that lack these sorts of features are held back in my mind. in Fallout New Vegas, i was somewhat put off when the Lonely Road DLC imposed a background for my character that directly conflicted with the one i had developed in my head, especially after so many hours into the game already. thankfully, there have been some outstanding games that embody these ideals. ive mentioned Kenshi in previous comments on other videos, and thats a game where the world is designed to be molded and influenced by the player (and there are mods that make it even more malleable). its also the strongest embodiment of "undeclared morality" i think ive ever seen, as 90% of the population are murderous, pyschopathic, sociopathic, racist, sexist, xenophobic, and/or cannibalistic. its a setting where nearly every faction is objectively awful in their own special way, so inserting yourself into that world gives you a wide array of choices for personal goals, even in the absence of a structured narrative. its also really good at "environmental storytelling". the bizarre, alien landscape is filled with history and mystery, giving you ample cause to explore and piece together what happened and how the world has changed over its multiple apocalypses. each region has unique flora, fauna, and even geology, which make for beautiful scenery and unique settings whether youre just passing through or building a homestead. finding books, exploring ruins, and talking to ancient robots found throughout the land reveal precious morsels of information, glimpses into a lost past, which might be easier or harder to uncover, depending on your race and affiliation, and how prepared you are for the hazards of the unforgiving world. i cant remember if i included it before, but this is a pretty fantastic and comprehensive review of it if youre interested: ua-cam.com/video/wXo24imR_54/v-deo.html
I think the only allowance with FNV is that the courier has a past, and the whole story is based on a drive and continuation on that past that is unknown via surviving a headshot. If it were left wholly ambiguous i think it would pose a problem. You have no control over who the PC verifiable was before, and whether or not those unchosen decisions had consequences. Also obligatory based kenshi
@@brandonm179 my issue wasnt that i was a courier, but that i had been a courier for many years. there wasnt any reason to go that far back. i think FNV and Lonely Road are both amazing to play through, but i really didnt like that they upset my headcanon about my own character. there are ways they couldve written it to be more flexible or compatible with the player's own personal story.
Tim, I just recently started watching your channel and it’s been truly informative and entertaining. Ive played a good number of your games, but I’ve been absolutely in love with “The Outer Worlds” since it’s debut, and hearing your behind the scenes experience has been so much fun. It’s also been inspiring. I don’t work in the games biz, but I do work in illustration and writing. Your insights have helped me look at my own work in a new way and make some adjustments for the better. Thank you for sharing your experience.
I loved Fate points in Arcanum. It felt good to spend a fate point to successfully break into that ancient safe in the Tarant museum. "Wow, I can't believe that actually worked! Fate points are awesome!" *proceeds to hoard them throughout the game*
what other game except a tim cain game allows the player to mow down a gang of drugged up kids with a minigun? and adds evocative sound effects on top of that?
Thank you Tim, I like your work, now here on YT, and in the gaming space very much 😇 Question: Is it different to work on a kickstarted project like Pillars of eternity than the others you have been on? Like you need to have something to show for the kickstart, then streach goals, and delivering on that promise to the backers, was it monetarily successful after the kickstarter?
Alright, NGL, this does get me super curious about Tim's thoughts on Immersive Sim games, since the design philosophy is ostensibly all about using reactivity to foster player agency.
Hi Tim, such a great video as always. Is there a setting you wanted to build a game on, but never did? You did post-apoc, fantasy (with steampunk) and sci-fi, but did you ever thought of age of exploration, with emphasis on oceans and islands? Ancient times like greco-roman? Maybe even further, with stone-age? Thanks!
Those disadvantages in Outer Worlds was an absolute stroke of brilliance, but honestly I think you could've been even crueler with them and forced them on the player. If you get a rough one, you can just reload a save and try to avoid taking too much damage from that enemy type. Is there a reason you didn't go all the way, or is it just plain not wanting to punish players unfairly?
I really liked the idea of flaws you could choose after experiences in The Outer Worlds but it fell victim to the idea that players will optimize the fun out of a game. You're not going to want to pick the ones relating to things you're struggling with yet those are the ones you're going to see at first. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it means it's a difficult decision with a real tradeoff. Once you figure out that these flaws exist you can deduce that they probably exist in regards to things you're not struggling with. If you're not having a problem with canids you won't get that prompt but once you deduce that fear of canids is probably a flaw you might go out and deliberately get injured by canids to get a flaw. When I say "you might do that" what I really mean is that I did just that myself. I kind of optimized the fun out of the game. I think a better approach might be tying these flaws to completion of side quests. Let's say you get a quest where you're asked to look for somebody who went missing while traveling to a certain town to trade some goods. Well let's say you find out that they paid for a night at the inn and the inn owner had a deal with a local wealthy resident to murder drifters so he can eat them. Well after you complete that quest you might have a fear of staying at inns and can only become well-rested when camping or at your own home. That might be too little of a trade-off to get a whole point but I'm spitballing ideas.
> I kind of optimized the fun out of the game. What? I don't understand what you're saying. You doing X in a (single-player) game doesn't affect my experience of that game. I feel like what you're trying to say is: > I played the game in a way that I ended up not enjoying.
@@rabbitcreative No, I know what I'm saying and I am specifics paraphrasing well-known quote from Sid Meier: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."
Hi Tim, very interesting. But I have question on slightly different topic. You mentioned that unions might be a good idea in game dev, but I wanted to ask what do you think about impact of royalties and such in game dev, similarly as Script Writers have? Would it give a sense of ownership to developers?
What sort of player character do you naturally lean towards building in terms of stats and morality in an rpg? Do you enjoy playing the bad guy as much as the good?
I love Tim's take on the level of freedom the game allows. I generally rolls my eyes whenever a game tells me not to do something and tries to give me a lecture. When I realize a game trying to force a way of thinking, narrative, or bias on me, I quickly lose interest in that game. Everything after that is very predictable, I'm no longer playing, I'm just watching a movie slowly playing out its obvious content.
Some of my personal pet peeves in games is disconnect between gameplay and story, as in, you have someone telling you how powerful mages are and a fireball will destroy tens of people on the battlefield and bla bla, then you shoot a fireball of your own and it's singletarget and barely makes a dent in the enemy hp. Uncharted comes to mind as well, murdering hundreds of people, then randomly your character will be "oh no I can't possibly kill this person". Things like that take me out of the game almost immediately.
I have kind of mixed feelings on player choice. On the one hand, I absolutely prefer to play games with morally grey worlds and difficult player decisions - they’re more interesting, they’re more fun, and they can really get your noodle cooking thinking about how it is you want to approach problems and solutions in-world. On the other hand, interacting with RPG communities can sometimes be kind of troubling to me. As a late-generation millennial, my earliest point of contact with RPGs was Morrowind, which has this great faction called the Telvanni magelords. In game, everything you hear about them makes them sound awful - they’re extremely xenophobic, they’re ruthless slavers, and they heed no laws other than their own strength, constantly creating problems for their Imperial governors. And when you get to Telvanni settlements, much of this impression holds true - the first thing that happens to you is some innkeeper tries to grift you into buying worthless “hospitality papers” that nobody will ever check, you witness open-air slave markets, and any Telvanni you talk with can quickly confirm that theft and murder are legal, since anyone you can overpower clearly did not have the right to their autonomy. But you also learn that they aren’t as bad as the Empire makes them out to be. While they do have slaves, they don’t really have slavery on an industrial scale, since they don’t rely on agriculture or mining in the same way as other factions. All slavery is morally abhorrent, obviously, but the most horrific conditions of enslavement are actually practiced by factions that the Empire supports (in Imperially chartered mines). Theft and Murder are legal, but it’s not a lawless land of cruel raiders - more a nation where disputes are resolved when one of the people involved dies (this does not make them good neighbors). And many of the Telvanni characters can be quite friendly, more open minded than other factions, and interesting to talk to - the only hospital for a plague ravaging the island is in the cellar of a Telvanni wizard tower, since the plague turns you into a mad beasts. Everyone else just kills corprus beasts on sight, only a Telvanni thinks they are worth protecting, and, if possible, curing. Cool faction, cool world, cool decisions for a player… But the vast majority of player discussion of Telvanni online is about how “cool” and “fun” it is that slavery, theft, and murder are legal. A lot of players miss everything interesting about the faction, and just like to roleplay as someone with ultimate power, who can be as sadistic as they want and face no consequences because noone can stop them. I’d be lying if I said interacting with that side of the community didn’t make me uncomfortable; some folks seem to get “too” into it, in a way that seems that it’s less about the interesting faction to them and more about the fantasy of ultimate power. The TL;DR: here is that I also like the type of games you talk about at the beginning here, but I sometimes wonder if maybe there isn’t a better way. A world with guardrails that limits player choice is usually derided by players, and yet, and I’m just being brutally honest, I sometimes think it makes those games’ communities far more tolerable. It filters the type of player who’s just in it for the sadistic power fantasies, and the more I get into modding, the more I like games where the communities are a little more… kind? Curious? Less likely to pushback if you tell them their mod seems pretty misogynistic? Anyways, thanks for this video, it’s been awesome going through a lot of these and gaining perspective from an industry veteran 👍
" A world with guardrails that limits player choice is usually derided by players, and yet, and I’m just being brutally honest, I sometimes think it makes those games’ communities far more tolerable. It filters the type of player who’s just in it for the sadistic power fantasies." Your whole post can be summed up to this,you want other people to play by your own rules or morality standards,because it makes you feel uncomfortable,how about this play the game how ever you think is appropriate,and let other people be,it's a game not a real life,and there is no direct correlation between being evil in game make you evil in real life,just as there's not correlation between playing shooter games,and commit crimes (not sure can i mention other things so i won't) Il be honest and say with respect,the way you want other to play by your rules,or to make game with guardrails to make them,is really weird and unusual,and i would personally avoid any game like that like a plague,and that is not because i wanna do all those things you mentioned,more for the same reasons Tim mentioned in the video,i don't like games that impose morality or telling me i have to play any kind of preset character,i should be the one who decided. P.S this comes from the guy who can't even force him self to play evil characters,or do some evil decisions,because of second play trough or whatever reasons just to see different content,i always chose to be good.
@@EyefyourGf You’re not alone in choosing the “good guy” path - the Bioware devs have found that something like only 8% of players have completed a renegade playthrough of Mass Effect. Steam achievements show that more people have completed a hardcore playthrough of New Vegas than a Caesar’s Legion playthrough, and both those achievements have been earned by fewer than 5% of players (I personally have unlocked both achievements). If you’re invested in a story, it’s natural to want to see the heroic ending, at least at first. But that doesn’t stop people from demanding the right to play a game as an immoral sadist, for whatever reason (which, imo, is one of the least interesting RPG characters imaginable - think of the character who blows up Megaton for no reason in FO3). Every game has limits to what players can do (for example, almost no game includes sexual assault mechanics, for good and obvious reasons). You think it’s weird that I think game design should guide players towards more prosocial behavior - I think it’s weird that most popular TES memes involve LARPing as a racist, and I think it’s worth reflecting on how game design causes players to interact with a story (including difficult and/or troubling themes and decisions) in ways that aren’t just about the player reveling in cruelty. Obviously, as I already said, I like morally grey games with tough choices - Morrowind and New Vegas are two of my favorite RPGs (in part because they came out at the right time for me to enjoy them in my youth). But it’s my love for those games, their worlds, their characters, and their stories that makes me wish that the modding scene wasn’t overrun with “erotic” mods, the community didn’t frequently revel in problematic “ironic” in-game racism and misogyny, and I didn’t bump heads with someone trying to justify slavery or fascism troublingly often. And things only get more complicated with games like HOI4, whose community is rife with actual nazi sympathizers, again for obvious reasons. It just makes me wonder what game designers can do to incentivize players to interact with the games’ themes in a more productive way. It always feels like I can’t even bring up that possibility without someone getting angry about it, which is part of my point - why is this feature so jealously guarded by a subset of RPG enthusiasts, when every game has some form of limitation on player actions (again, see: SA)? As to “it’s just a game, it’s not real life,” this argument never stops being boring to me. If what’s in a game had no significance to real life, RPGs would not be interesting or worth playing, I’ll never understand why so many people think that’s a good argument. Obviously, I don’t think video games literally turn people into killers, it’s not the ‘00s anymore. You’re attacking a man of straw.
@@gordo6908 The Morrowind community is actually a good example of that sort of community curation - there are wonderful teams of modders, and excellent spaces full of people excited about the world and lore and engaged in enthusiastic discussion (and expansion) of the game. I think it actually helps that a) Morrowind’s pretty old at this point, so it attracts both an older and more dedicated crowd, and b) its world caters to more serious engagement with its factions than something like Oblivion or FO3, which have jokier, more morally black and white aesthetics which encourage players to be as nonsensically evil as possible in “evil” playthroughs. But that gets to my real point, which is that game design does impact the community that’s drawn to a game. Give players the option to, for example, RP as genocidaires, and you’re going to attract a certain crowd. For a prime example of this, go to any F:NV community and ctrl+F “General Gobbledygook”. The “sneering imperialist” perk can’t be interpreted as being pro-imperialism in any way, and yet its inclusion serves as a magnet for people who love racist humor for all the wrong reasons. I just think that’s something devs should consider when making games - just because you can include a player option to do something awful doesn’t necessarily mean you should, imo.
@@sammosaurusrexYour opinion,and luckily not a lot of people share it,but by all.means make a game that includes everything you seem apropriate,and wont make you feel"uncomfortable" ,but as i said before,i personally and many more play rpg for player choice,which you cant have with guardrails,imposing your will is not a choice,its comunism.
"Hey everyone, it's me, Tim. Today I wanna talk about..." is one of the most comforting phrases in the English language
The “game allows you to do bad things and then tells you you’re a bad person” makes me think of This War Of Mine. You *can* easily rob defenseless people, but your in game characters get depressed, and if you do enough things that impact the morale of the characters it can mechanically spiral to the point of the characters in-fighting, drinking (which wastes resources and makes them ineffective), or leaving entirely.
Pretty good points here. I like the "I don't want to make FallOut 2, I want to make a new IP" attitude so much. When nowadays, a lot of games are milked franchises, and there is so much hype behind them and it's the same rehashed thing again and again. Or this retro-revival trend. I get it from a business perspective though, it's more of a selling point to say you are making the next iteration of a popular franchise than an entirely new IP that doesn't ring any bells to most gamers and could be risky. But then again, for me games that reached part 3 (like Dark souls 1,2,3, Borderlands 1,2,3, etc..) is the point where you stop and do an entirely new thing, not go at number 4,5,6,7,...,20. You also might have reached the peak with the 2nd or 3rd installment, and it's harder to aim higher than some masterpiece you have created before, it's more stressful and challenging, because if 2 or 3 was really really good, how should 4 be?
How cool that these passionate TimCain-isms shine through in the games. These discussions are sparkling gold.
Failures made Tim a bit Timid, but now he is O'Cai(n)
I know Tyranny's development was difficult, but it is such a great game! I'm glad you had fun with it!
Arcanum's setting is a great mishmash of themes. I'm playing it now for the first time. It's really unique and I appreciate the game for not holding your hand much, although I wish the UI was more intuitive. I have to say if I was recommending the game to friends I would tell them to reference the manual before and throughout their playthrough. I was told to avoid guns, so of course I went guns and I'm enjoying the extra challenge. 😂
So early today, thank you Tim, you know I love development talks.
I'm glad you get to work on new IPs but you've no idea how much I wish the current directors of Fallout shared your preferences. The replayability of New Vegas vs FO3/FO4 is not even comparable with the depth of player choices. I'm thankful Josh leaned more in your artistic direction than Bethesda's. Still praying Obsidian get to make another Fallout now that Microsoft own both companies!
I loved KOTOR 2 for its grey role play, which was made by Obsidian too. In Kotor 2 you were never completely evil or completely good, and it was difficult to find the right answer in the dialogue that would lead to one or the other. It was a very nice shade of grey.
Tim you hit the nail right on the head. Player agency is key to a great RPG. It's about F*cking around and finding out what those consequences are and having fun building your character. Too many games today feel too linear, as if they are movies. Great video!
I have been working on a game as a hobby, and thank you for all of your talks; they are greatly inspiring and interesting to listen to! I have been mostly improvising my development (since I am still learning best practices, there is inherently a lot of back-tracking, so extra re-work is expected anyway), and am currently implementing "player reactivity" through a Set of strings. If the player does something for the first time (meets a character, visits a new area, uses a mechanic, picks up an item, hits a progression block, etc), I add a unique string to the set, and anytime I want to check if the character has done it, I search the set for that tag. I then use that to present unique dialog with NPCs (and ultimately lead into endgame results). I would love to hear more from you about the specific programming details of handling mechanics like this (if you haven't already covered it, and I missed it).
Everything you say is so natural and logical. I love the approach to freedom that is employed in the RPG's that you worked on.
"Pre-apocalyptic"
Isn't it odd that nobody was able to contact earth, I wonder what could've happened 🤔
Thanks for the video Tim.
Hi Tim, just wanted to say I think you're completely right about disadvantages, I really wish this had/would become a staple in rpg games. The only other game I've played where I thought it was pretty successful was in Daggerfall where the reason why you voluntarily give yourself a disadvantage, like a phobia to an enemy type, or being forbidden to use a weapon/armour type, was so that you could then give yourself an advantage like fire immunity. Things that have an actual, tangible affect on the playstyle and imprint on the character. Maybe it could be a simple point system where for every disadvantage you give yourself you get a point to spend on an advantage. It's a bit discouraging that many modern rpgs think of character creation as not much more than customising your appearance.
what are some of your favorite isometric single-player RPGs?
edit: I mean I’m aware you don’t like to rate other people’s games, I’m just looking to get into some more RPGs after Fallout and Arcanum, and would’ve liked some pointers :)
pillars of eternity
baldurs gate
I'm not Tim but try Neverwinter Nights. Not isometric, but close enough - it's full 3D, but I think that you can lock the camera at a similar angle; or just play with a camera closely following your character which is always an option. It is worth noting that the game is in real-time with tactical pause, but combat is pretty well-paced. It is based on DnD system after all.
If you will like it then go for the sequel and/or Dragon Age: Origins also made by BioWare.
Plus I hear that Planescape: Torment is pretty good.
I personally liked Planet Alcatraz back in the days, but I don't know how it will work for you - it is a Russian game, so you will be dealing with a translation and some things may appear quite off-colour. Just remember not to take it too seriously if you will actually decide to give it a try.
thank you to both of you :)
Thanks for sharing, Tim!
I have to say, Flaws were a great mechanic. My friends and I love character flaws in games and will pick them voluntarily when given the chance. So having that built in to the Outer Worlds was amazing! Also I have done at least one playthrough where I take every flaw presented to me, and it was so fun.
13:58
thankfully, thats a very common sentiment in the tabletop space. but i fear the profitability of video games will preclude it. just look at the nemesis system
These videos are golden, Tim. Thanks for sharing all this perspective and advice with us. Hope you & yours are doing ok.
I think that Larian games fills all your preferences! Humor, reactivity, player agency....
I'd love a discussion on Complexity vs Complication and the merits and detriments of both. I of course have my own views on both, but I'd love to hear yours.
i'd love to see a video on your development environment, what IDE's do you like to use? what tools? what's your philosophy on programming? development process?
Everyday is a good day because everyday Tim uploads.
Love these videos and love even more that there's a new one every day! You give me so much to think about every time and its grounded, thoughtful information. Keep up the good work!
How do I pay you to cut down my magnum opus, pie in the sky, dream game(s) into something I can actually accomplish before I die?!?
Thank you for making this series. This is basically a masterclass on a lot of factors of the business, and you're giving it away for free!
Have you considered connecting with AA studios to make games from your ideas for you? Like a Tim Cain franchise deal? Everything that you're saying points to the facts that you're frustrated with AAA and their lack of risk taking, your admiration of the burgeoning indie scene, and that you're full of ideas but semi retired.
It seems to me that, if you could get in touch with some AA devs or indie studios, you could take on advisory roles and give them an idea for one of your many worlds that you want to flesh out.
I guess what I'm saying is that you have journals full of worlds to explore, but there's only one you, and you're a finite resource, and if you could get others to render your visions, more of your work could see the light of day before you go from semi to fully retired.
Do you have any preference for either deterministic or dice roll skill checks in single player computer RPGs? You've been involved with games that use both.
Hi Tim! What do you think could be done in new game with factions (like New Vegas, Deadfire) - what would be the next step? Just more factions? Any interesting ideas?
Gah! Too many factions and fractions and fragments already. ;) I'd like to see a more integral approach to conflict resolution in RPGs. Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sick and tired of being told to "pick a faction and DESTROY the rest." Whatever happened to empathy, mutual understanding, respect and cooperation?
Fallout 76 tells us everyone in W. Va. died due to their mutual suspicion and, often, exploitation of one another. Wouldn't it be a breath of fresh air to have the opportunity to get all the factions on the same page and working toward a common goal for a change?
I think the next step is schism, where you have the option of splitting one of the factions into two new factions, but I fear that when it does show up, it will be overused.
nonlinear stories, keeping the player character as 'pure' as possible from prewritten influences (as well as an "undeclared morality"), a world that reacts to the player, etc. make games infinitely more enjoyable for me, and its why ive become so fond of yours.
even among my favorite games of all time, ones that lack these sorts of features are held back in my mind. in Fallout New Vegas, i was somewhat put off when the Lonely Road DLC imposed a background for my character that directly conflicted with the one i had developed in my head, especially after so many hours into the game already.
thankfully, there have been some outstanding games that embody these ideals. ive mentioned Kenshi in previous comments on other videos, and thats a game where the world is designed to be molded and influenced by the player (and there are mods that make it even more malleable). its also the strongest embodiment of "undeclared morality" i think ive ever seen, as 90% of the population are murderous, pyschopathic, sociopathic, racist, sexist, xenophobic, and/or cannibalistic. its a setting where nearly every faction is objectively awful in their own special way, so inserting yourself into that world gives you a wide array of choices for personal goals, even in the absence of a structured narrative.
its also really good at "environmental storytelling". the bizarre, alien landscape is filled with history and mystery, giving you ample cause to explore and piece together what happened and how the world has changed over its multiple apocalypses. each region has unique flora, fauna, and even geology, which make for beautiful scenery and unique settings whether youre just passing through or building a homestead. finding books, exploring ruins, and talking to ancient robots found throughout the land reveal precious morsels of information, glimpses into a lost past, which might be easier or harder to uncover, depending on your race and affiliation, and how prepared you are for the hazards of the unforgiving world.
i cant remember if i included it before, but this is a pretty fantastic and comprehensive review of it if youre interested:
ua-cam.com/video/wXo24imR_54/v-deo.html
I think the only allowance with FNV is that the courier has a past, and the whole story is based on a drive and continuation on that past that is unknown via surviving a headshot. If it were left wholly ambiguous i think it would pose a problem. You have no control over who the PC verifiable was before, and whether or not those unchosen decisions had consequences. Also obligatory based kenshi
@@brandonm179 my issue wasnt that i was a courier, but that i had been a courier for many years. there wasnt any reason to go that far back.
i think FNV and Lonely Road are both amazing to play through, but i really didnt like that they upset my headcanon about my own character. there are ways they couldve written it to be more flexible or compatible with the player's own personal story.
Tim, I just recently started watching your channel and it’s been truly informative and entertaining. Ive played a good number of your games, but I’ve been absolutely in love with “The Outer Worlds” since it’s debut, and hearing your behind the scenes experience has been so much fun. It’s also been inspiring. I don’t work in the games biz, but I do work in illustration and writing. Your insights have helped me look at my own work in a new way and make some adjustments for the better. Thank you for sharing your experience.
I really love the low intelligence or low luck plays, not many games do these things.
Loving these vids Tim. You were always the goat, shame the series was acquired by even bigger and badder corporations.
I loved Fate points in Arcanum. It felt good to spend a fate point to successfully break into that ancient safe in the Tarant museum. "Wow, I can't believe that actually worked! Fate points are awesome!" *proceeds to hoard them throughout the game*
what other game except a tim cain game allows the player to mow down a gang of drugged up kids with a minigun? and adds evocative sound effects on top of that?
What are your thoughts on combat systems? What makes a good combat system? How does the RPG genre limit or help combat systems? Great video Tim
Thank you Tim, I like your work, now here on YT, and in the gaming space very much 😇
Question: Is it different to work on a kickstarted project like Pillars of eternity than the others you have been on? Like you need to have something to show for the kickstart, then streach goals, and delivering on that promise to the backers, was it monetarily successful after the kickstarter?
Tim, could you please tell us about Tyranny and your part in that game?
Alright, NGL, this does get me super curious about Tim's thoughts on Immersive Sim games, since the design philosophy is ostensibly all about using reactivity to foster player agency.
Hi Tim, such a great video as always. Is there a setting you wanted to build a game on, but never did? You did post-apoc, fantasy (with steampunk) and sci-fi, but did you ever thought of age of exploration, with emphasis on oceans and islands? Ancient times like greco-roman? Maybe even further, with stone-age? Thanks!
Those disadvantages in Outer Worlds was an absolute stroke of brilliance, but honestly I think you could've been even crueler with them and forced them on the player. If you get a rough one, you can just reload a save and try to avoid taking too much damage from that enemy type. Is there a reason you didn't go all the way, or is it just plain not wanting to punish players unfairly?
It’s all about player agency. I don’t want you to play a character you didn’t choose.
I really liked the idea of flaws you could choose after experiences in The Outer Worlds but it fell victim to the idea that players will optimize the fun out of a game. You're not going to want to pick the ones relating to things you're struggling with yet those are the ones you're going to see at first. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it means it's a difficult decision with a real tradeoff. Once you figure out that these flaws exist you can deduce that they probably exist in regards to things you're not struggling with. If you're not having a problem with canids you won't get that prompt but once you deduce that fear of canids is probably a flaw you might go out and deliberately get injured by canids to get a flaw. When I say "you might do that" what I really mean is that I did just that myself. I kind of optimized the fun out of the game.
I think a better approach might be tying these flaws to completion of side quests. Let's say you get a quest where you're asked to look for somebody who went missing while traveling to a certain town to trade some goods. Well let's say you find out that they paid for a night at the inn and the inn owner had a deal with a local wealthy resident to murder drifters so he can eat them. Well after you complete that quest you might have a fear of staying at inns and can only become well-rested when camping or at your own home. That might be too little of a trade-off to get a whole point but I'm spitballing ideas.
> I kind of optimized the fun out of the game.
What? I don't understand what you're saying. You doing X in a (single-player) game doesn't affect my experience of that game. I feel like what you're trying to say is:
> I played the game in a way that I ended up not enjoying.
@@rabbitcreative No, I know what I'm saying and I am specifics paraphrasing well-known quote from Sid Meier: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."
Hi Tim, very interesting. But I have question on slightly different topic. You mentioned that unions might be a good idea in game dev, but I wanted to ask what do you think about impact of royalties and such in game dev, similarly as Script Writers have? Would it give a sense of ownership to developers?
What sort of player character do you naturally lean towards building in terms of stats and morality in an rpg? Do you enjoy playing the bad guy as much as the good?
13:50 lmao imma be honest, this is the first time i heard the word "robophobic", i laughed
Hi Tim 👋
Are you involved in any way in the Fallout TV show?
Tim "would you kindly" tell me if you tried bioshock 🙂.
I love Tim's take on the level of freedom the game allows. I generally rolls my eyes whenever a game tells me not to do something and tries to give me a lecture. When I realize a game trying to force a way of thinking, narrative, or bias on me, I quickly lose interest in that game. Everything after that is very predictable, I'm no longer playing, I'm just watching a movie slowly playing out its obvious content.
your child killing comment was funny: "the fact that you know it's possible means you're a bad person!" lol
I still like Arcanum and tyranny
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Some of my personal pet peeves in games is disconnect between gameplay and story, as in, you have someone telling you how powerful mages are and a fireball will destroy tens of people on the battlefield and bla bla, then you shoot a fireball of your own and it's singletarget and barely makes a dent in the enemy hp. Uncharted comes to mind as well, murdering hundreds of people, then randomly your character will be "oh no I can't possibly kill this person". Things like that take me out of the game almost immediately.
What happened with The Outer World's story?
I personally found that game's story extremely linear, just saying...
A Tim Cain game is a Hentai visual novel. Do not disagree with me, I am correct.
I have kind of mixed feelings on player choice. On the one hand, I absolutely prefer to play games with morally grey worlds and difficult player decisions - they’re more interesting, they’re more fun, and they can really get your noodle cooking thinking about how it is you want to approach problems and solutions in-world.
On the other hand, interacting with RPG communities can sometimes be kind of troubling to me. As a late-generation millennial, my earliest point of contact with RPGs was Morrowind, which has this great faction called the Telvanni magelords. In game, everything you hear about them makes them sound awful - they’re extremely xenophobic, they’re ruthless slavers, and they heed no laws other than their own strength, constantly creating problems for their Imperial governors.
And when you get to Telvanni settlements, much of this impression holds true - the first thing that happens to you is some innkeeper tries to grift you into buying worthless “hospitality papers” that nobody will ever check, you witness open-air slave markets, and any Telvanni you talk with can quickly confirm that theft and murder are legal, since anyone you can overpower clearly did not have the right to their autonomy.
But you also learn that they aren’t as bad as the Empire makes them out to be. While they do have slaves, they don’t really have slavery on an industrial scale, since they don’t rely on agriculture or mining in the same way as other factions. All slavery is morally abhorrent, obviously, but the most horrific conditions of enslavement are actually practiced by factions that the Empire supports (in Imperially chartered mines). Theft and Murder are legal, but it’s not a lawless land of cruel raiders - more a nation where disputes are resolved when one of the people involved dies (this does not make them good neighbors). And many of the Telvanni characters can be quite friendly, more open minded than other factions, and interesting to talk to - the only hospital for a plague ravaging the island is in the cellar of a Telvanni wizard tower, since the plague turns you into a mad beasts. Everyone else just kills corprus beasts on sight, only a Telvanni thinks they are worth protecting, and, if possible, curing.
Cool faction, cool world, cool decisions for a player… But the vast majority of player discussion of Telvanni online is about how “cool” and “fun” it is that slavery, theft, and murder are legal. A lot of players miss everything interesting about the faction, and just like to roleplay as someone with ultimate power, who can be as sadistic as they want and face no consequences because noone can stop them. I’d be lying if I said interacting with that side of the community didn’t make me
uncomfortable; some folks seem to get “too” into it, in a way that seems that it’s less about the interesting faction to them and more about the fantasy of ultimate power.
The TL;DR: here is that I also like the type of games you talk about at the beginning here, but I sometimes wonder if maybe there isn’t a better way. A world with guardrails that limits player choice is usually derided by players, and yet, and I’m just being brutally honest, I sometimes think it makes those games’ communities far more tolerable. It filters the type of player who’s just in it for the sadistic power fantasies, and the more I get into modding, the more I like games where the communities are a little more… kind? Curious? Less likely to pushback if you tell them their mod seems pretty misogynistic?
Anyways, thanks for this video, it’s been awesome going through a lot of these and gaining perspective from an industry veteran 👍
" A world with guardrails that limits player choice is usually derided by players, and yet, and I’m just being brutally honest, I sometimes think it makes those games’ communities far more tolerable. It filters the type of player who’s just in it for the sadistic power fantasies."
Your whole post can be summed up to this,you want other people to play by your own rules or morality standards,because it makes you feel uncomfortable,how about this play the game how ever you think is appropriate,and let other people be,it's a game not a real life,and there is no direct correlation between being evil in game make you evil in real life,just as there's not correlation between playing shooter games,and commit crimes (not sure can i mention other things so i won't)
Il be honest and say with respect,the way you want other to play by your rules,or to make game with guardrails to make them,is really weird and unusual,and i would personally avoid any game like that like a plague,and that is not because i wanna do all those things you mentioned,more for the same reasons Tim mentioned in the video,i don't like games that impose morality or telling me i have to play any kind of preset character,i should be the one who decided.
P.S this comes from the guy who can't even force him self to play evil characters,or do some evil decisions,because of second play trough or whatever reasons just to see different content,i always chose to be good.
isn't this solved by curating your own community? why would you prefer that be exported to the devs via guardrails?
@@EyefyourGf You’re not alone in choosing the “good guy” path - the Bioware devs have found that something like only 8% of players have completed a renegade playthrough of Mass Effect. Steam achievements show that more people have completed a hardcore playthrough of New Vegas than a Caesar’s Legion playthrough, and both those achievements have been earned by fewer than 5% of players (I personally have unlocked both achievements). If you’re invested in a story, it’s natural to want to see the heroic ending, at least at first.
But that doesn’t stop people from demanding the right to play a game as an immoral sadist, for whatever reason (which, imo, is one of the least interesting RPG characters imaginable - think of the character who blows up Megaton for no reason in FO3). Every game has limits to what players can do (for example, almost no game includes sexual assault mechanics, for good and obvious reasons).
You think it’s weird that I think game design should guide players towards more prosocial behavior - I think it’s weird that most popular TES memes involve LARPing as a racist, and I think it’s worth reflecting on how game design causes players to interact with a story (including difficult and/or troubling themes and decisions) in ways that aren’t just about the player reveling in cruelty.
Obviously, as I already said, I like morally grey games with tough choices - Morrowind and New Vegas are two of my favorite RPGs (in part because they came out at the right time for me to enjoy them in my youth). But it’s my love for those games, their worlds, their characters, and their stories that makes me wish that the modding scene wasn’t overrun with “erotic” mods, the community didn’t frequently revel in problematic “ironic” in-game racism and misogyny, and I didn’t bump heads with someone trying to justify slavery or fascism troublingly often.
And things only get more complicated with games like HOI4, whose community is rife with actual nazi sympathizers, again for obvious reasons. It just makes me wonder what game designers can do to incentivize players to interact with the games’ themes in a more productive way. It always feels like I can’t even bring up that possibility without someone getting angry about it, which is part of my point - why is this feature so jealously guarded by a subset of RPG enthusiasts, when every game has some form of limitation on player actions (again, see: SA)?
As to “it’s just a game, it’s not real life,” this argument never stops being boring to me. If what’s in a game had no significance to real life, RPGs would not be interesting or worth playing, I’ll never understand why so many people think that’s a good argument. Obviously, I don’t think video games literally turn people into killers, it’s not the ‘00s anymore. You’re attacking a man of straw.
@@gordo6908 The Morrowind community is actually a good example of that sort of community curation - there are wonderful teams of modders, and excellent spaces full of people excited about the world and lore and engaged in enthusiastic discussion (and expansion) of the game. I think it actually helps that a) Morrowind’s pretty old at this point, so it attracts both an older and more dedicated crowd, and b) its world caters to more serious engagement with its factions than something like Oblivion or FO3, which have jokier, more morally black and white aesthetics which encourage players to be as nonsensically evil as possible in “evil” playthroughs.
But that gets to my real point, which is that game design does impact the community that’s drawn to a game. Give players the option to, for example, RP as genocidaires, and you’re going to attract a certain crowd. For a prime example of this, go to any F:NV community and ctrl+F “General Gobbledygook”. The “sneering imperialist” perk can’t be interpreted as being pro-imperialism in any way, and yet its inclusion serves as a magnet for people who love racist humor for all the wrong reasons. I just think that’s something devs should consider when making games - just because you can include a player option to do something awful doesn’t necessarily mean you should, imo.
@@sammosaurusrexYour opinion,and luckily not a lot of people share it,but by all.means make a game that includes everything you seem apropriate,and wont make you feel"uncomfortable" ,but as i said before,i personally and many more play rpg for player choice,which you cant have with guardrails,imposing your will is not a choice,its comunism.
Basically Tim Cain likes to kill kids. LOOOOOL jk
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