Controversial Doctrines of the Word of Faith (Prosperity) with Randy Bunch and Jay Stillinger
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2024
- Randy Bunch (Connecting Point Church in Taft, Cal.) and Jay Stillinger (Abounding Grace Christian Church in Burnt Hills, NY) join me to discuss the error and extremism in the Word of Faith movement regarding financial prosperity.
Randy Bunch's church website - www.connectingpc.org/
Randy Bunch's magazine - randylanebunch.org/
Jay Stillinger's church - www.aboundinggracecc.org
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Amazing balanced teaching like this will create an atmosphere of unity in the body of Christ & that unity will release revival. Thanks guys 😁
Glad to call you all co-workers in Him in the ministry
I love this guys thank you for bringing some balance and bring 2 good examples of real nonheritical pastors on the show!
This discussion from those who were there in the 70s, 80s and 90s is so needed. I wish you guys could go on a podcast with the Remnant Radio guys to get this viewpoint out there. Have you ever reached out to them??
People have such a twisted view of the WOF because of the big names that have gone astray.
I just got out out meetings with Rev. Randy Grier. You may know him as he was head usher for Brother Hagin in the 80s and 90s. I feel like he is such a protector of the original message but he doesn't have a large public ministry. One of my pastors is also an early 90s graduate of Rhema with sound balanced approach to faith topics.
I don't even think many people realize Hagin wrote the midas touch to ground the errors.
I have spoken with Josh Lewis from The Remnant Radio a couple of times. He has my phone number if he wants to talk.
Matt 6:33; " But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you". God Blesses His own. Great video Brother Rod. Be Blessed!
These two programs with Stillinger and Bunch are the best Jew and Greek had ever produced. This is was needed. This is one reason I consider Rod Saunders to be a true believer and the most balanced and theologically sound WOF proponent out there. It's a shame the normal WOF commenters have yet to comment or liked these videos. I suspect it has to do with the programs being about correcting the errors of their movement
Thank you Rod. I know this is time out of your work and life to address these issues. These is a good work and it blesses those of use who know the truth, but it also is helping others who by lies are kept from the truth. Thank you shedding light.
Awesome! I'm going to watch this again with family, for a teaching moment.
What I remember as WOF has taken on a new identity.
While prosperity was taught, there was not this obsession with financial wealth and material gain that we see today
In addition, some are considered by many to be WOF teachers and are not, which lends to the confusion.
While some minimize good works, giving to the needs of others is part of the works that God has prepared beforehand for us to do. Your good works do follow you, your righteousness remains forever. Be not deceived, he that doeth righteousness is righteous according to 1John3.
It is impossible to demonstrate the love of God without works of faith and showing mercy. Faith worketh by love.
Thanks for striving to bring back balance in regard to the message of the prosperity that God desires for his people.
Give and it shall be given to you. God gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater. But if we regard the wind we will not sow, if we regard the rain we will not reap.
It is written that there will be those who make merchandise of God's people. Indeed, today we see the church being used for gain. The light is that which makes manifest. Grace and Peace.
This was good and balanced. Nice to see. I wish it was longer and more in depth but I understand that was not the objective.
I would argue anyone who teaches "tithes and offerings" is teaching "give to get". As NT believers, we are not taxed on our money called tithes. Even the 10% idea is a random idea from 1 incident with Abraham and it was from his spoils of war, not his own stuff. Anyhow, the principle of blessed to be a blessing still applies but it is different for each person depending on where they are at and their faith. We sow and reap but not giving to get. It scares a lot of pastors to let this bad man made tradition go. They believe that the truth will stop all money. But the Bible says the opposite.
People forget we are stewards of this vineyard and not the owner. (Matthew 24) The whole earth is the LORD'S and everything in it. (Ps 24v1) We can live in prosperity but we must be willing to leave it all and give it away like Jesus asked the young rich man. It is no wonder its importance when it is in Matthew 19v21, Mark 10v21, and Luke 18v22.
In Luke 21v1-4, Jesus tells of a widow putting all she has into the treasury of the temple. Jesus praises her and gives her 100 fold more than she gave! Wait, no. Then nothing. It doesn't say what happened next. I know God is faithful so I am sure God would not have left her without anything. (It also shows how far the temple treasury had been misused as the Israelites were to take care of widows and orphans.) But the point here is that what God gives us back and when is upbto Him and what we can handle as you all so rightly stated!
Lastly, I am learning, as was said, that it is a heart attitude over anything else. We are to be a cheerful giver, not out of obligation (there goes tithes) but willingly. (2 Cor 9v6-7) Most see giving as painful rather than a joy. A way to partner with others like missionaries to further God's kingdom! If we are not building God's kingdom then we are building our own. We see true Godly breakthrough in all areas of our lives when we are about our Father's business. (Matt 6v33) There is also an element of faith that God will bless us and know that when we are faithful in the small things, He will trust us with larger things. (Luke 16v10) The parable of the talents also shows this principle (but can apply to the gifts of God too, imho). As we believe God will come through and work to see it fulfilled, then we can see the blessings. We can't sit back and just say, "Well, I did my part. Give me, God! You owe me now!" It is by grace we receive anything. Through faith. That does not stop at salvation. But of course like salvation there are conditions or laws too. One of the most balanced teachings I have heard is from Derek Prince on Abundance. It is very good! I highly recommend it to anyone.
Anyhow, ramble over. Thanks again for this great discussion and all of these on the WoF theology as it is much needed today! Blessings, brother!
My overall impression from this discussion seems to present a balanced view. However, I have a few questions. First, beginning at the 21:38-minute mark Jay begins to speak and talks about how he considered leaving WOF but says Rhema is balanced. Then he goes on to state at about the 22:16 mark that he no longer mentions other preachers and rarely mentions Kenneth Hagin. Because he states people can look up things on the internet. What is meant by that? That’s an extraordinary statement by a Rhema grad that he rarely ever brings up Hagin’s name anymore. Perhaps you could get him to elaborate on this.
Second, per your discussion I would like your reaction to the following Kenneth Hagin quotes. The first two are from the book “How God Taught Me about Prosperity” Kindle edition copyright1985 Rhema Bible Church. I believe he originally taught this beginning in 1950 because he said this is when the Lord taught him this. Perhaps this is the origin of the name it and claim it label.
1. From page 8, after he pours out his money woes to the Lord. He says the Lord told him, “In the first place-and this will help you-don't pray about money anymore; that is the way you have been praying. Claim whatever you need.”
2. From page 9 he elaborates, “Claim whatever you need or want. Say, Satan, take your hands off my finances. Then say, go ministering sprits and cause the money to come.” He goes on to say start off small, for him it was $150 a week then keep increasing your faith. Then he states he eventually reached the million-dollar level.
Is the teaching from this book still valid? Afterall, he says he got this directly from the Lord. Would love to hear your thoughts.
3. The following from “Having Faith in Your Faith”. Tulsa OK Kenneth Hagin Ministries 1988 edition
Paraphrasing this: Hagin (for sake of clarity as to whom I am referring to) taught that, anyone can develop universal “laws of faith” to get what he wants. Hagin goes on to say that for a pastor or anyone to drive a Chevrolet instead of a luxury car isn’t “being humble that’s being ignorant” of God’s “law of Prosperity” that works for whoever you are “saint or sinner."
Then he goes on to say "It used to bother me when I'd see unsaved people getting results. But my church members not getting results. Then it dawned on me what the sinners were doing. They were cooperating with this law of God-the of faith." "Having Faith in Your Faith", Pages 3-4 Rhema 1980 edition.
Is this book still considered valid? So, faith works for unbelievers? This seems to be more like the law of attraction with a Christian veneer. And by the way, where are we instructed in the Bible to have "Faith in our Faith"? Jay mentions how people grow and evolve in their faith and understanding does this mean that now he, you or others have evolved from what Hagin taught?
I see no reason to reject what Brother Hagin taught in his book on prosperity. The areas where I disagree with him aren't things he taught based on visitations or revelation. They're things he picked up from other teachers. I read through my copy of Having Faith in Your Faith and there's nothing in it about cars. I have seen a video of him back in the '70s where he made a statement like that, but I never heard it when I was at Rhema. I'm sure he revised the way he presented some of these issues over the years. As for unsaved people cooperating with the law of faith, Naaman might be a good example. He was a Syrian (Gentile) who did what the prophet told him to do and he was healed. That's not LOA. The LOA is based on pseudoscience where "like attracts like" concerning energy and vibrations in the universe. WoF is based on believing, speaking, and acting in agreement with God's Word. WoF affirms all of the essential doctrines of the faith that New Thought and the LOA reject.
@@JewandGreek So, do you agree with the 3 parts formula that Hagin taught? He taught that this is how we should pray for finances:
1. I claim this amount in Jesus' name.
2. Satan, take your hand off the money.
3. Ministering spirits, go and bring the money to me.
Are the above 3 statements biblically correct for us to do?
Let's not exchange health for wealth
Just to correct something….all 3 said they wernt rich….compared to around 90% of the world, you are rich beyond belief
It depends what or who you compare your wealth to
I've stated as much in the past. By American standards I'm not rich but I do consider myself prosperous by the world's standards.
@@JewandGreek and that is a terrifying thing to consider …… what are we doing with our wealth ?….how is it possible for children to be starving in the world today when we live comfortably ?……that’s something Iam struggling with ATM
God had blessed my wife and I with a large 6 bedroom house which we have used with our own children and our foster children….but there is more I believe we must do …… people say to save for a rainy day, well it’s literally pouring outside and what are we doing ?