Repertoire: The IDEAL Ives Symphony Cycle
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- In the past couple of decades, enough new recordings of the remarkable Ives symphonies have appeared that we can now make meaningful comparisons and get a genuine sense of what constitutes an idiomatic and persuasive interpretive approach--even in his craziest moments. In this chat, I survey the various options, and recommend integral cycles of the four numbered symphonies under a single conductor, and then propose an IDEAL collection drawn from individual performances not included in the complete sets. Come and get your Ives!
Ives 3rd is incredibly underrated. The simple harmonic resolution of “Communion” after the many minutes of unsettled complex harmonic churning is a seminal moment; a breathtaking final glance to a past long gone.
Lenny’s version of this symphony - with perfectly balanced distant church bells, brings tears every time.
Marvellous survey of these brilliant symphonies - I’ll be going after Litton and Davies. This video really cheered me up because you are right, we have so much choice now and so well done generally. I get depressed with the state of the industry sometimes but this is such a bright spot.
Ah, Danbury...Dining with the family at the Old Oak and El Dorado...the smell of the cheeses and salami at Genoa imports on Lake Avenue...buying clothes at Feinsohns...caddying at Ridgewood Country Club...visiting Mom there after she moved out of our Ridgefield home...and going to concerts at Ives Hall at WestConn! Thanks for the memories.
Thank you so much for this! How nice to learn about your personal history with Ives. I've been in love with his music since the early 1970s, and at the time it was so hard to find anything about him, let alone recordings or sheet music. How things have changed! As you said, it's amazing that we are now able to do this, and you did a great review. Btw, Michael Tilson Thomas' Concertgebouw #2 didn't sound so bad to me on vinyl, but maybe I missed something.
Fun, insightful talk, David.
Tilson Thomas' Ives is superb. His 2nd Orchestral Set in Amsterdam is my favourite recording of my favourite Ives work. It's slower than many, to the work's benefit IMO. Finely recorded, too.
I own the MTT cycle, which I imprinted on, what, 35 years ago. I was young and eager to have my ears and mind flushed. I'm going in for a second round of that, you convinced me to get more different Ives performances. So thank you very much. I would like to mention here the orchestral transcription of the Concord Sonata by Henry Brant, "A Concord Symphony". Spectacular recording by the Concertgebouworkest under Dennis Russell Davies on the Innova label. Think of it what you may, I think it's great fun.
Yes! Finally! :-)
Thanks for this illuminating Ives Symphony review. I had not kept up with more recent recordings of this composer, and so I was pleased to find out that there are so many options these days. Back when I was studying music in college, Ives was considered "exotic" repertoire, and not well liked, either by music students or by most of our professors. I hate to admit it, but we actually made fun of Ives' music--in our ignorance of its merit. What did it for me was singing his truly mystical setting of Psalm 90 with a choir that was up to the music's exigent demands. Then I went on to explore Bernstein's Second, Howard Hanson's Third, and Stokowski's Fourth, and the true genius of Ives began to sink in. Those recordings have for years been the only ones in my collection (together with Bernstein's Holidays Symphony and shorter pieces). I now need to explore some of the more recent recordings. So thanks again!
Very much appreciate this information. Shamefully, I am coming to Ives kind of late in my life and loving what I hear. Lenny's exposition on the 2nd Symphony was probably the hook.
Thanks for explaining the percussion parts in the finale of the first which had puzzled me - most critics don’t mention this .
Great talk, Dave. While I certainly won't argue against Bernstein/DG for the 2nd symphony, I think a huge 'sleeper' is the N. Jarvi/Detroit Symphony one on Chandos. I first heard it on Sirius XM satellite radio and was shocked. It also comes with a cool Paul Creston symphony. I have that Morlot/Seattle recording of symphonies 3 and 4. As you said, it's really good. I particularly like the realistic church bells at the end of the 3rd. Indeed, we're finally spoiled for Charles Ives.
@barry guerrero I may have misinterpreted "sleeper"... do you mean it is a hidden treasure? I was introduced to Ives via the No 1 with Jaarvi and the Detroit SO, and still love to listen to it. It is very warmly recorded and excels in pathos of the 2nd mvt and the exciting finale. David doesn't like the Jaarvi approach, but then, he's got his own "ideal" in his head, as we all have. Back in 1969 I bought Klemperer's ponderous Beethoven 5th, and it took me yonks to stop finding other recordings too fast thereafter.
I don’t have a complete set of the Ives symphonies, having never gotten around to add No.1. Will have to add that to my list. However, I have both of Bernstein’s No. 2 and like them equally well. I grew up listening to his first recording, so I usually turn to that first because of the faster tempos. For No. 3 it’s Tilson Thomas and the Concertgebouw with his fabulous Orchestral Set No. 2 you mentioned. I also have his Chicago Holidays Symphony and his RCA disc titled An American Journey containing a whole variety of works including 3 Places in New England with the San Francisco Symphony (also highly recommend James Sinclair’s chamber Orch version now I think on Naxos). The Tilson Thomas disc contains wonderful performances of Ives songs with Thomas Hampson, as well. For No.4 I find Dohnanyi unbeatable-especially that gorgeous fugue! I enjoyed your discussion immensely.
Excellent chat with very judicious choices for your list.
Here is my list:
1 - Sinclair
2 - Bernstein (DG)*
3 - Marriner
4 - Dohnanyi
* When I want something completely different I take out the Bernard Herrman/LSO recording. Very broadly conceived, with much detail revealed and a little tinkering to the score.The final note(s) is sounded as just that: an an abrupt note., the direct opposite ofBernstein's sustained raspberry.
Glad for this chat, both inherently (I love Ives) and because it gives me a chance to correct an earlier error on a previous Ives talk...I have though the Vanguard recording of the 2nd in my collection was by Maurice Abravanel, but it turns out to be the Farberman recording. I found it in a cut-out bin at Tower Records a long time ago, so I suspect there's not much hope for finding it now. But I do like his interpretation a lot. I also prefer a short "stinger" ending (which Farberman does), but it's not a deal-breaker, particularly with the Bernstein recording. And Stokowski's 4th is mind-boggling (in a good way).
I "imprinted" on Bernstein's 2nd when it was first produced as a Columbia "special LP edition" with a big photographic booklet. Literally, yes, he's not following the score at that final chord, but I think holding it a bit longer is necessary to discharge all the tension that's been built up in the finale.
This was a great talk on my favorite composer (even named my son after him). I agree regarding the Dudamel - there is something missing in all of the performances, like they are all rushed as you described. I still love and adore the Farberman cycle which I recently bought from Amazon digital store for .99 cents.
I am still behind in hearing the Litton and Davis cycles so will have to listen to them soon. My top cycle has been the Michael Tilson Thomas all these years. My favorite 3rd is the Marriner. Agree that the Stokowski 4th towers all.
Completely disagree regarding Dudamel's cycle but agree that Stokowski's 4th is great. Dudamel can sound rushed compared to Bernstein's unique and phenomenal take on the 2nd but love them both. Marriner's 3rd is fine but prefer Dudmal's and either of MTT's recordings.
Dear Dave, my recording of Ives first is by Morton Gould and The Chicago Symphony, is that cut?
I'm very happy to hear you reviewing Ives recordings. I'm rather a 'completion' person myself as I'd rather have some idea of what it would have been like than not. So I'm For the Emerson concerto. Perhaps more than I am for the little sets that Ives (after he sort of lost composing ability) tried to make out of songs and so on. And I don't buy the Universe symphony, much less orchestral set no 3. ( I think it's the 3rd, completed from sketches). Well, I did buy them but you know what I mean.
So I also buy the Mahler 10, Bruckner 9 finale, Elgar 3rd - but not the Elgar piano concerto. Not yet at least. And I'm grateful to know what Schubert had in mind for the scherzo of the 8th, even if we never program it with the other 2 movements in concert.
But back to Ives, I keep waiting for a 3rd with the (later?) pencilled in tone -cluster strings and timpani part. I believe (from what I garnered) that the controversy about the final chromatic chord of the 2nd was that it made it sound like it was Ives thumbing his nose at the professors at Yale (I believe the 2nd rather than the 1st was the graduation piece, the 1st being a class exercise). But the shorter chord is simply Ives using the final 'anything you like end of dance chord' at barn dances. I don't mind either version myself.
I'll be looking for you reviewing the orchestral sets and maybe the chamber music. I love the trio.
I never had much affection for Ives' symphonies, aside from Bernstein's 2nd, until Dudamel's cycle with the LA Phil. Agree MTT is a terrific Ives conductor but Dudamel ignited my enthusiasm for these works.
There's always that "AHA! moment" and there's no predicting what will cause it. If Dudamel works for you, that's great.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Completely agree. I had that same feeling with Paavo Järvi's Schmidt cycle, both are amongst my favorite recordings of 2020.
Litton and DSO are great! Wow!
Just wondering if you have an opinion regarding the Neeme Jarvi recording of Symphony No. 1, with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra (Chandos).
I am partial to the oid recording of the 4th on RCA made by Jose Serebrier. But Stokowski is definitely a classic.
I have total respect for Sinclair as an editor, and I have been very pleasantly surprised by his efforts on the podium.
The Decca set is interesting in that each of the 4 symphonies is successively better than the previous one.
Bernstein's 3rd Symphony finale has the most wonderful climax and coda - truly moving. I personally prefer his NY version of 3 to either version of 2. I'm not sure he even re-did 3.
A number of yrs ago I had to conduct an American program in Spain. I said no Gershwin. Everyone does him. So it was The Unanswered Question , Knoxville Summer 1915 and Ives 1, the critical ed, the only one I know. There are some places where it is better to take the 1st violins up an octave but the shocker was how little Ives seemed to know about bowings and articulation. Sometimes you would need a 10‘ bow to play some of the passages so in preparing it I had a hell of a lot of work. The extra percussion is optional and since the management didn‘t want to pay for extra players, it was left out. I questioned using them anyway. If you don‘t have the score, Sinclair leaves in all of the inconsistencies and comments on them in the end. It should be played more often. Good to know you are a New Englandah. I would have assumed with your accent you a New Yaukah . Lovely review.
What a great program! I think I'll try it come Fourth of July. With Ives-Schuman Variations on America as an encore.
@David Hurwitz: You've mentioned "The Unanswered Question". What's your favorite recording of it? Thanks in advance for an answer!
Honestly, it doesn't really matter. The piece is basically unkillable.
Hello David. Thanks for your great and enjoyable videos. Please could you indicate the barcode of the CD of Symphony 4 by Stokowsky? I can't find that cd on the market. Thank you. Greetings from Valencia, Spain.
Sorry, I don't have a barcode for that performance specifically--it's in the Sony box.
I own many CDs from the American Classics series of naxos, especially Barber, Copland ans Ives. Many years ago, maybe more than ten, I sent them an email asking about plans for recording Ives' 4th symphony (I was interested in completing my naxos Ives symphony cycle) and they told me that "it was on the pipe". Well, it apparently has got clogged somewhere. A pity.
Speaking of the end of Brahms 4, I find that if done as written it has a certain matter-of-fact quality which is more in keeping with the spirit of the piece than holding onto the last note longer which only calls too much attention to itself. Kertesz did it as written.
Can you do your thing with Bernstein's symphonies? You will probably have a good deal of experience with them, and though I'd like to explore them, I don't quite know where to start. What sort of symphony does a patrician intellectual write?
Well, I did do a talk on the First Symphony, and will get to the others at some point: ua-cam.com/video/KP1AuKsHeSA/v-deo.html
What do you think of Morton Gould's recording of Ives 1 with Chicago Sym.? I've(s) always been fond of it. I think Gould was an underrated conductor. His Nielsen 2 is also first rate, in my opinion.
I agree.
Dave, I do not understand your comment on Dudamel particularly in the 1st. I am getting loving in abundance. When you say he does not give care and understanding I am scratching my head. Please can you elaborate on your comment?
Try going to ClassicsToday.com and read my review there. I think it may help to clarify things a bit.
Bernstein - Stokowoski. YES!!!!
Hi, friend
Have you listened to the double cd of Ives directed by Dudamel? I have not been able to yet but I saw that it has several awards. looks interesting haha. I would like to know your opinion about it,
Best regards
Hint: alway check reviews on ClassicsToday.com: www.classicstoday.com/review/dudamels-ives-nice-try/?search=1
Actually, to have a complete Sinclair Ives symphony cycle he would need to record #2 as well as #4. Naxos does have an Ives Symphony #2 in its catalog, but it's with Schermerhorn and the Nashville Symphony. Nonetheless, I enjoyed this, as well as many of your other talks. Keep up the great work.
That's what I said and what I meant--"They don't have a #4" means Naxos, not Sinclair--I was referring to the label, not the person. I think that was pretty clear.
Sorry Dave, I cannot watch your last upload on Dvorak's fifth symphony. Is there a technical problem?
No, it's fine.
@@DavesClassicalGuide ok. Thanks a lot!
The Detroit Symphony Orchestra always performs Ives well. Neeme Jarvi has a nice recording of the 1st and 2nd with them on Chandos. And Slatkin conducted all four with the DSO at Carnegie Hall a few years back.
The Jarvi recordings are fast, casual, and unsatisfying. Not terrible, but certainly not competitive.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sorry, David. I find their 1st very gorgeous and totally satisfying.
@@walshamite It's your call.
I have to say that I can't keep up.... Your listening suggestions come too tightly. Just started with Julius Röntgen, and now Henrik Andriesen as a result of looking through the CPO catalogue... And now... Charles Ives! What's next...?
What's the rush? The videos aren't going anywhere. Take you time and enjoy the music. I know the videos are coming fast, but I've had 50 years to listen and soak it all in, so I'm not exactly rushing either.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I will focus on Röntgen. He is surprisingly good!
Why doesn’t Hyperion collect their Ives recordings in one set? The Byrd Cardinall’s Musick recordings have been out for several years, and they still have yet to produce a Byrd box. I really hope they do a Josquin Masses box now that the Tallis Scholars have finished recording them.
They seem to tend not to do boxes. The Tallis Scholars recordings are not on Hyperion, They are on Gimell.
Yeah, you’re right. Gimell Records just uses the Hyperion website. In any case, I do hope they make a Josquin box.
Hello Mr Hurwitz.
I think I know why Decca cut the first symphony. It was because so it could be placed on one side of an lp. An uncut perfomance last 45 minutes.
Best wishes Fred
I don't think that was the issue.
Thanks for steering us away from the Dudamel cycle. I’d considered diving in, but the reviews in general seem to be mixed at best. Sounds like it falls into the “life is too short” category.
I disagree, Dudamel's is the best cycle in my view and is the only one that got me to appreciate these symphonies amongst the finest of the 20th century. Bernstein, Stokowski, and MTT are all great Ives conductors but Dudamel and the LA Phil got me to go from admiration to affection for these works.
@@SFreije1 good to know you enjoy them. I’ll give Dudamel’s cycle a try eventually. Which of the four do symphonies do you think Dudamel does best?
@@AlexMadorsky Good question. I love his 1st the most. His 2nd is also great but still love Bernstein's latest recording. The 3rd is hard to mess up as Hurwitz rightly points out, there's other equally fine 3rds such as either of MTT's or Marriner's as other commentaries have mentioned. His 4th is perhaps the most unique and controversial with tempo choices but agree Stokowski's is also a must. Overall, the complete cycle presents the works of an American master performed by a major conductor and orchestra with the artistry deserving of these works. They are now amongst my favorite symphonies of the 20th century. Nothing against others like those previously mentioned, or Litton and Dohnanyi (who is usually criminally underrated) in the 4th. Stokowski's Orchestral Set No. 2 can't be beaten in my view but I owe it to Dudamel to doing a deeper diver into Ives' works and hope more orchestras/conductors/and record labels follow suit. Dudamel in concert paired these with Dvorak symphonies, which may sound odd but makes sense especially after hearing the 1st.
Interesting to note Samuel Barber hated Ives' music with a passion. "‘I can’t bear Ives. It is now unfashionable to say this, but in my opinion, he was an amateur, a hack who didn’t put pieces together well. I once attended one of Aaron Copland’s Tanglewood classes for composers in which Aaron announced somewhat peremptorily, “Here in Tanglewood we have decided that Charles Ives is a great composer!” I backed my car out onto Route 183 and drove away without comment." Ouch! That sounds like the sort of thing Benjamin Britten would have done too (He was also notoriously thin-skinned,) he once walked out of a performance of his own Peter Grimes because he couldn't stand Jon Vickers's interpretation of the role. He also threw a hissy fit when he heard Dudley Moore do a (very accurate actually) impersonation of his partner, the tenor, Peter Pears mimicking his distinctive singing voice.
Just goes to show that composers say (and do) stupid things too.
The first movement of Ives First Symphony reminds me of a lost early Dvorak Symphony.