Mr Hurwitz: What a fantastic program. I had just finished listening to the Tchaikovsky 5 conducted by Klemperer and was marveling at the inner details and just how balanced the entire music is. And then heard your program and your recommendation. This symphony can quickly degenrate into pastiche and does so with most conductors (about 95% of them!). And hahaha about the Bruckner mania. Your posts are fantastic (i disagree on a few (Beethoven and Brahhms symphonies) and i shall keep them to myself!). Many thanks and belated but warm wishes for the new year. Hari
What an interesting set of suggestions! Agree that several of them are exceptionally good (including Klemps in No. 5 and of course Fricsay and Mravinsky). Here's a different 'ideal' set, which does me for today even if I change my mind tomorrow (especially about the first three). 1. Smetáček/Prague SO (Supraphon) 2. Jurowski/LPO (live, LPO own label) 3. Neeme Järvi/Gothenburg (BIS) 4. Svetlanov/USSR State SO (live perf., Canyon Classics) 5. Matačić/Czech PO (Supraphon) 6. Mackerras/Philharmonia (live perf., Philharmonia own label)
Love Tchaikovsky; love Bruckner. No competition. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Your picks for the ideal cycle, Dave, were also mine in 1, 3, 4, and 6. Since I don't want to repeat your choices, I had to think of alternatives, and here is what I came up with for my "ideal" Tchaikovsky cycle: 1: Bernstein/NYPO. Vivid, atmospheric, and con amore throughout. 2: Mehta/LAPO. Best tam-tam crash in the finale (the moment in the entire Symphony I always wait with bated breath to hear). 3: Karajan/BPO. As sensitive as Haitink and more passionate (though to be fair my first pick would have been Haitink if I hadn't decided to avoid any of the Hurwitz choices}. 4. Solti/CSO. As exciting as Mravinsky in the finale and better recorded. A brilliant performance all around with superb playing from the CSO. 5. Koussevitzky/BSO. Yes, I know this is an "historical" recording in dated sound. But the playing of the BSO is transcendently beautiful, especially in the slow movement, and the Russian soul of the conductor channels the Russian soul of the composer perfectly. 6: Ormandy/Philadelphia/Sony. It's easy to underestimate Ormandy, but he was at his finest in Tchaikovsky, especially his CBS/Sony versions of 4, 5 and 6. His Pathetique has enormous dignity, even majesty, along with the razzle-dazzle of the Scherzo/March and the gloom and doom of the finale, neither of which are overdone. The symphony says everything it needs to, with eloquence and superior playing from the Philadelphians. Manfred: Haitink/RCO. The Haitink set remains for me a kind of benchmark among complete cycles, not least because of his sensitive, thoughtful and eminently musical Manfred. And, the playing of the RCO is as gorgeous here as it is in the Third. Thanks, Dave for an enjoyable tour through your Ideal Tchaikovsky cycle.
1 or 2 ... I have not listened to a sufficient number of recordings 3 - Maazel, Wiener Philharmoniker 4 - Karajan, Wiener Philharmoniker (on the other hand, I think Karajan's Vienna recording of the sixth is a frisbee) 5 - Stokowski, New Philharmonia (despite the cuts) 6 - Bernstein, New York (DG) M - Muti, Philharmonia
The performance that i like of your selection is Metha in the third. I think it gets overlooked because its part of a cycle. For some reason he gets to grip and give a performance which is top notch. Its definitely the highlight of cycle, which in places can be seen as ordinary but consistent
I have just re-listened to the Fricsay 6th on Orfeo. Haven't listened to it in a long time and you reminded me of its existence. It is a marvellous performance. Really, perhaps the best ever. There are so many reasons to love this performance, the phrasing is beautiful throughout and he just absolutely nails everything about it from the first movement development section to the absolutely grotesque march, and what a finale. The finale is just... Wow. The drama, the tension, the emotion. Incidentally, this Orfeo recording seems more readily available digitally than the later DG one so for anyone that hasn't heard it, it is coupled with Bartók's 3rd Piano Concerto (with Annie Fischer) and it's available on both YT Music and Spotify. Listen to it and be amazed.
I just bought the Klemperer Romantic Symphonies box, which has numerous unique performances of known repertoire (and some can be an acquired taste), but the Tchaikovsky 4, 5 and 6 are all pretty wonderful. A very dramatic 6 too, and a 4 that has the finale taken at a slower - not glacial - tempo, which allows one to hear the instrumentation more, while the conductor underscores some details that make it exciting to hear. But I am of course here to comment on the 5, and it is an extremely well balanced reading that keeps things moving, delivers emotions where you want them, and has the Philharmonia playing at their best, the low strings, e. g., and all those textures in the woodwinds that David mentioned. Klemperer seems to have been, remarkably, quite an advocate for Tchaikovsky, just not the saccharine "emo" style some early interpreters would make it seem. This is serious top-drawer work, and he treats it like one. The anecdote provided in the notes tells that Walter Legge himself praised Klemperer's essays into Romantic repertoire. His notebook reportedly contains a remark about the old giant being in unbelievable form throughout the early 1963 sessions, with his T. 5 in particular described thus: "the results are hair-raising"! Says a man who had basically seen (heard) it all. And it was not even a phrase penned for publicity - those are supposed to have been Legge's private notes. I think it is telling, and I was happy to agree. :)
Some excellent recommendations there David. Absolutely my favourite of all the composers and have heard hundreds of performances of these great works. I'm surprised not to see Markevitch in your list given he was your top recommendation for the full cycle (but perhaps that is why). It's difficult to disagree with any of your recommendations (especially the superb Fricsay Pathétique) but here's an alternative IDEAL list from me... 1: Philharmonia/Svetlanov (a live recording - one of his last performances - in London, just wonderful) 2: LSO/Dorati (the recordings of 1-3 on Mercury are superb in every way and this is thrilling) 3: LSO/Markevitch (excellent performance) 4: LSO/Böhm (a bit of a sleeper this one but Dr Böhm not known for being an exciting conductor absolutely goes for it with the 4th - just listen to the end of the first movement!) 5: RPO/Gatti (wonderfully played with real grandeur in the finale) 6: VPO/Maazel (has everything - enough emotion in the first movement, a quick march - with a short second cymbal clash! - and split strings in the finale which is taken at a good pace) Manfred: Paris Conservatoire Orchestra/Silvestri (has to be, especially with that mighty organ at the end!) If I could have chosen the same conductor twice I'd have gone for Silvestri's 5th with the Philharmonia. But if I'm only allowed to have one then it has to be the Manfred!
My ideal cycle: 1. Rostropovich, London Philharmonic. 2. Markevitch, London Symphony. 3. Haitink, Concertgebouw. 4. Abbado, Wiener Philharmoniker. 5. Klemperer, Philharmonia. 6. Bernstein, NYP (DG). Manfred: Muti, Philharmonia. Great video: Tchaikovsky is my favorite composer and I really enjoy your takes (although I don't always agree with you).
I've gotta share an admonition we got from our 1959 summer-music-camp orchestra conductor - "you kids just haven't suffered enough to play Tchaikovsky."
Tchaikovsky was my first love in classical music, back in my teens (meaning more than 50 years ago...). He’s still at my heart and I have my personal ideal list of his symphonies, based more at affective than musical grounds (for instance, I must admit I am a Mravinsky addicted...), and so my list doesn’t match with yours but who cares? I heard each one of your choices at Apple Music and they are wonderful! But Man: Fricsay’s Pathetic, which I never heard before your talk, it’s absolutely perfect! Thank you so much for teaching such a beautiful new trick to this old dog! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
David, Your list is superb, and mirabile dictu, I agree with every single one of your choices. I was simply blown away first time I heard the Mravinsky 4th and the Fricsay 6th and consider them to be two examples of the greatest things ever captured by a microphone. That being said, I will also put in a good word for Karajan's Philharmonia 4th and Constantin Silvestri's Philharmonia 5th and 6th (his 4th is perverse!)
I first heard Mravinsky's 4, 5 & 6 on WJZZ out of Bridgeport, Conn. Do you remember their endless cycle of the "Top 100 Classical Selections," all of which were orchestral? It was my Basic Orchestral Repertoire 101. The Mravinsky's were the first echt-Russian performances I had ever heard, and they scared the living daylights out out of me. Now, of course, I love them dearly and listen to them often. But I look forward to checking out the Klemperer (who knew?) and Fricsay. (Of course, there's the Furtwangler 6th, which his claque and other Germanophiles seem to think is the only justification for the Symphony's existence.)
Thanks for the video David! I have to admit I am surprised at your" (ugh!)Bruckner!" exclamations as you have done so many excellent reviews of his works and appear during them to like and appreciate said works :) Ahh well he remains my favorite composer and you remain my favorite critic nonetheless !
The Tilson Thomas can be found in an Eloquence twofer; at least for now. #1: Jurowski/LPO; Coupled with that stunning 6th, it's truly lovely #2: Mehta/LAPO: Because why the heck not? I have a fondness for Giulini on EMI, but the finale is all cut up #3: Markevitch/LSO; one of my favorite cycles and a great performance #4: Ormandy/Philadelphia (CBS/Sony); others are more exciting, more sharp...I find I don't much care. The RCA remake is pretty beautiful, too. #5: Szell/Cleveland; I also love Szell's LSO 4th (Decca) and Mussorgsky Pictures, and nobody talks about those either. Szell was hardly a Russian specialist and the sound is dated, but it's my pick. #6: Munch/BSO: I wanted to pick Eshenbach on Ondine, but I already used Philly. Monteux in Boston (also on RCA) is also gorgeous Manfred: Silvestri, on Warner or Testament
Had leg surgery yesterday. Woke up this morning to Dr. Hurwitz's medicinal video and now I'm feeling much better. You should have been a doctor David. Note: I recall old B.H. Haggin's volume Music Observed, where he ranked Tchaikovsky above Brahms.
As a corollary to my initial list, here are some “sleeper” choices: Sym 4 - Szell/LSO Sym 5 - Stokowski/NPO; yes, Stoki cuts some music and plays with orchestration, but this is very committed and passionate Sym 6 - Ormandy/Philadelphia(Sony) - beautifully realized, gorgeously played (those strings are incredible)
Every single one of Tchaikovsky's symphonies deserves a regular place in concert halls, especially the Little Russian and the Polish It is a bit curious that the man who wrote The Nutcracker and the 1812 Overture isn't more prominent in modern performance and recordings. He is an accessible composer that leaves listeners smiling more often than not. I see no reason why more Tchaikovsky has to come at the expense of Bruckner or any other composer in particular. This is an excellent ideal cycle which I have no quibble with. A couple of sleepers I think people should think about: Svetlanov's 2nd with the USSR Symphony Orchestra, Hermann Scherchen's 4th with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra, Kitajenko's 1st with Cologne, and Kletzki's Pathetique with the Philharmonia. I know you aren't doing the "7th" for the obvious and fair reason that it is a reconstruction by someone else, but boy did Philadelphia and Ormandy do a great job.
Maybe the problem is that Bruckner (and germanic traditional composers) are to Tchaikovsky what he himself was to other contemporary Russian composers (Borodin, Glinka, Balakirev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Cui, Taneyev, Rubinstein, Lyapunov, etc.) in the Western world. I think that it is a question of pure marketing. I would like to know how Russian or Asian concert houses treat 'their' composers nowadays. Tchaikovsky might be seen by musicologists as a pop tunesmith (alla Dvorak) who supossedly did not manage form well and thus did not create a lasting school. The great Russian composers of the 20th century do not seem to have anything in common with Tchaikovsky. Rachmaninoff, who I think is the closest to Tchaikovsky's heritage, was popular in the middle of the 20th century, but musicologists tend to despise him (therefore he is 'not' a great Russian composer) and record companies occasionally use his works as showpieces for new artists (Lisitsa? Trifonov?). On the other hand, I have never find Stravinsky or Shostakovich as heirs to Tchaikovsky. Every one must do a little bit of Shostakovich, like Bruckner. Prokofiev would be the closest to a 20th century Tchaikovsky, but again, he does not seem to fare so well nowadays with record companies or concert houses as he once did.
I think the reason Tchaikovsky may have lost his standing is overexposure. For a lot of classical music fans, Tchaik was a formative part of their musical interests, but if you listen to something too much when you are young, it's normal to find it tiresome in later years.
Hello Mr Hurwitz! Fred from Sweden here again. I wonder if you could made a talk about recordings of Mozart's operas? Maybe you could also consider to do a talk about recordings of Schubert's piano sonatas. Best wishes Fred.
Here's my list - a bit different to some, and the Fricsay has been on my music playlist for years. #1 First 2 movements I listen to Haitink and 3rd and 4th Rostropovich #2 Giulini #3 Muti #4 Bernstein #5 Karajan #6 Fricsay Manfred Muti #7 Ormandy
I just got hold of the fabled Mravinsky recording of #s 4/5/6, after seeing it hyped by reviewers for years, and despite all that buildup, it still manages to be startling in its intensity. No other performances of these works I've heard are as riveting as these. I'm very happy to have this set -- but that doesn't mean I'm throwing away Bernstein and Temirkanov. I don't always want total insanity in a Tchaikovsky performance. On some days, mere neurosis is all I require!
The ones I'm pretty sure are these: No. 1 - Markevitch No. 5 - Karajan (EMI) (the timpani here are stunning) Manfred - Haitink I have to think about the others.
There is a wonderful set from Diapson D'or of the symphonies, concertos and chamber works of Tchaikovsky. It has many recordings I had never heard before. For example, the First Symphony conducted by Golovanov and the Second by Mitropoulos with the Minneapolis SO. Just amazing stuff!
Late to the game and yes I know I'm breaking the rules. I find nothing to disagree with on anyone's list but for me there is a glaring omission: Pierre Monteux who recorded the last 3 symphonies in stellar performances and great sound with the Boston Symphony. Hard to find but available in 1) The Pierre Monteux: Complete RCA STEREO Recordings, 2) A separate box from the Monteux Edition: Tchaikovsky: Symphonies Nos. 4, 5 & 6. 3) The now very expensive Pierre Monteux: Complete RCA Album collection. With searching some may be found individually. The 6th is part of the Living Stereo SACD collection and I have the 4th on a JVC pressing that does not seem to be available anymore. More easily found is a live 1963 LSO/Vienna Festival performance on Vanguard CDs of the 6th Symphony with the Romeo and Juliette Overture and Concerto 1 with John Ogden. Warm, brilliant, exciting readings. Perhaps without the last ounce of fire the Russians may bring but with an expansive, romantic and at times even danceable quality Monteux brought to his performances. Not to be ignored.
Actually, the live 1963 LSO/Vienna Festival performance on Vanguard is Symphony No. 5, not Symphony No. 6. The whole performance also shows up on a Silverline disc, with both stereo and 5.1 in two formats: DVD-Audio and Dolby Digital. In any case, I enjoyed it quite a lot.
In the face of such an excellent list, what can one add? As the latin phrase goes 'homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos': 1st Oslo Jansons - a spirited, unaffected reading. 2nd Concertgebouw Haitink - truly great. 3rd BPO Karajan - Can't use Haitink, so Karajan's wonderful reading is no slouch. 4th LSO Szell - Classic reading and splendid finale. 5th Leningrad PO Mravinsky (Stereo) - Superb and I don't care a jot about the wobbly horn solo vibrato in the slow movement! 6th PO Ashkenazy - fantastic sombre reading. Manfred PO Muti - Someone who actually believes in the piece!
Hey Dave, many thanks for another great video! I was checking Mravinsky’s Pathetique and from one of your reference recordings’ recommendations there seems to be two of them, both on DG. I would say the 1960’s one, but can’t seem to find the other. Maybe a mono one? Thanks again!
Mine breaks the rules because it includes the same conductor twice and uses one of yours. Void as needed. 1: Michael Tilson Thomas / Boston Symphony Orchestra (DG) 2: Lorin Maazel / Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra (Telarc) 3: Mariss Jansons / Oslo Philharmonic (Chandos) 4: Daniel Barenboim / Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Teldec) 5: Mariss Jansons / Oslo Philharmonic (Chandos) 6: Mikhail Pletnev / Russian National Orchestra (Virgin) Manfred: Riccardo Chailly / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (Decca)
I love everything Tchaikovsky, and it's hard to pick a favorite symphony, but I dearly love No. 3. There's that thing the strings do in mov. 4 ..... yeah, and the chorale in mov. 5 ..... yeah, yeah ..... oh and, and the tympani ...... yeah! Ditto you on Bruckner.
I have heard good things about the Mehta /LAPO cycle . Am not sure whether it was a digital recording. Has 1812, Romeo & Juliet etc but no Manfred. Would be interested in knowing what you think of it,Dave.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Oops, my bad. Just 10 minutes after I posted this I remembered having watched the video you mention. Apologies. I must be getting old.......
For most symphonies I have no "absolute" favorite, so there are many possibilities for constructing such a list, with a lot of other conductors as well (like Markevich, Mravinsky, Muti, Haitink, Abbado, Jansons, Svetlanov). One of those possible lists, the list of today, FWIW: 1 - Ivanov (alto) 2 - Rozhdestvensky (same alto box as 1.) 3 - Jurowski (LPO) 4 - Szell (Decca) 5 - Previn (Telarc) 6 - Fricsay (DG, stereo) Manfred - Pletnev (DG)
David, be careful what you wish for! I guess everybody has personal preferences for conductors, orchestras and interpretations, but here is my pick of versions you didn't mention in your survey: No 1 Masur/Gewandhaus (the best thing in his complete set, lovingly done) No 2 Abbado/Chicago (also mentioned in other comments: the outer movements are mind-blowing) No 3 Muti/Philharmonia (nobody does the brilliance and elegance in this work better) No 4 Kubelik/Bavarian RSO live in 1969 (this conductor was always compelling live) No 5 Petrenko/RLPO (the best performance in his recent Onyx set, consistently thrilling and close to Mravinsky) No 6 Currentzis/MusicAeterna (how can anyone who loves this music not respond to the intensity here, superbly played and recorded) Manfred Nelsons/CBSO (the best thing Nelsons did in his Birmingham years)
I wonder what you think of this list David. 1: Igor Markevitch & London Symphony Orchestra on Phillips & Decca 2: Evgeny Svetlenov & USSR State Symphony Orchestra on Canyon Classics & Exton (Japan Live Recording) 3: Mariss Jansons & Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra on Chandos 4: Gennady Rozhdestvensky & Grand Symphony Orchestra of All-Union National Radio Service & Central Television Networks on Melodiya 5: Leonard Bernstein & New York Philharmonic on Deutsche Grammophon 6: Vyatcheslav Ovtchinikov & Moscow Radio Symphony Orchestra on Warner Manfred: Bernard Haitink & Concertgebouworkest on Decca R&J: Valery Gergiev & Mariinsky Orchestra on Decca 1812: Antal Doráti & Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra on Mercury & Universal
My favorites: Karajan's first recording for EMI stereo now very well remastered! also Giulini for EMI, Karajan DGG, Markevitch, Mravinsky, Rozhdestvensky ...
My ideal cycle: 1 - Tilson Thomas (the best ever); 2. Markevitch - LSO; 3. Bernstein - NYPO (Bernstein can milk this of all the emotion Tchaikovsky has); 4 - Rozdensvensky - LSO; 5 - Ormandy - Philadelphia Orchestra; 6 - Levine - Chicago Symphony; Manfred - Muti - Philharmonia.
David, since you asked for our list - 6/Reiner/CSO, 5/Szell/Cleveland/4/Ormandy/Philly/2/Maazel/VPO - I have no faves of the others yet. The ones I picked are mostly sentimental favorites. I also have the Fricsay you mentiond and greatly enjoy it.
There are so many good performances of Tchaikovsky's symphonies that it's difficult to get the 'bests' ones. I remember with such a very special love Dorati Sym. No. 3, Stokowsky No. 5 and Ormandi and Monteux 'Pathetique'. Another suprise in these days it's Tilson Thomas Sym. No. 5 (I prefer it than Mravinsky, for example).
1 - Svetlanov - USSR State Academic SO 2 - Solti /L'Orchestre de la Société des Concerts du Conservatoire de Paris (Decca) 3 -LAPO / Metha (Decca) 4 - Abbado/VPO 5 - Jansons /Oslo PO (chandos) 6 - Ashkenazy/PO (Decca) Manfred: Muti/Philharmonia
My first 6th was Enrique Batiz. Unfortunately he cut the opening bars. The melody is played twice but he only did it once. So when I heard a broadcast I thought the player had a lapse! However I found out better. The Batiz 6th is one I've remained fond of. I wonder what the general opinion of his Tchaikovsky is. ( He is obviously out of favour for personal reasons: I'm talking musical issues only.)
@@ThreadBomb Meaning his personal reasons not mine. There was a court case about alleged misconduct to players. Don't know if it's resolved as I have no interest in these things
Great list. I'm re-acquiring the MTT/BSO Tchaikovsky 1 on CD; had it on LP for many years, love the performance. Also checking out Haitink for all the symphonies. Here is one such ideal list (not duplicating any of your choices) 1 - Jansons/Oslo PO 2 - Dorati/LSO 3 -Jurowski/LPO 4 - Abbado/VPO 5 - Markevitch/LSO * 6 - Mravinsky/Leningrad PO ** Manfred - Muti/Philharmonia * or Szell/Cleveland, Muti/Philharmonia. The Klemperer is stunningly good. ** I really like Bernstein/NYPO?DG because it is so well played and cathartic (to put it mildly), but not for everyday listening. Markevitch/LSO could be a choice for amy of the numbered symphonies
Agreed - poor choice of words. I was awkwardly trying to say that Bernstein’s unique reading would , for me at least, be a less frequent listening choice than other readings.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I have to agree. I love the 6th but when I have listened to the final movement I feel like throwing myself under a truck. There is no other piece of music has that effect on me. Could be a video "Classical music to commit Harakiri"
I barely keep track of my opinions of various recordings, however, I occasionally write down if I particularly liked some performance. Apparently, I enjoyed Jansons/Oslo on Tchaikovsky 4, and Bychkov/Czech on Manfred. Did not like Gergiev/Wiener on Tchaikovsky 5. That's all I got, but this symphony cycle is definitely up there among my favorites, thanks for the talk!
So since the 3rd is very suite-like, would you consider the Third Suite similarly to be a symphony? I like to think that with #1-6, Manfred, and Suite #3, Tchaikovsky actually died writing his Ninth symphony, which was the incomplete 7th aka the final piano concerto.
@@DavesClassicalGuide :-) aww let me have my romantic notion that Tchaikovsky died not from cholera, nor a secret plot, but via the CURSE OF THE NINTH *spooky music plays*
@@allenwilliams1306 The suites for orchestra are terrific! I have Stefan Sanderling for 1 and 2, Maazel for 3, Ansermet for 4. (Sanderling's disc of 3 and 4 was so disappointing.)
I got the Klemperer box on your recommendation of his Tchaikovsky Fifth. My pick for the piece had been Rodzinski with the Royal Philharmonic, but I have to give it to Klemperer. My only complaint about Klemperer is that I don't think he indulges himself enough in the finale. I like Rodzinski because he's theatrical without being affected. He gets carried away with the tempos but doesn't make it schmaltzy, the music is still dark and serious in tone. Klemperer makes his point with ingenuity where Rodzinski makes his with showmanship. Still, Tchaikovsky wasn't trying to be Brahms here, and I think Klemperer's reading would be even better if he let loose a little at the end. So I give Klemperer an A and Rodzinski an A-.
I think we got the same Klemperer box! Only I got it for Dvorak's 9th - duly intrigued by David's description of that one! So I basically had the pleasure to discover the grand Tchaikovsky 5 on my own, before getting to this review. It is an exceptional version.
@@bigg2988 Nice! Yeah, that's a great box. I haven't gotten to the Dvorak Ninth yet, though, so I'll have to give it a listen tonight. I agree, it's great to have this channel to help us find the best recordings of different pieces. Hurwitz knows as many more of them than I do, proportionally, than the average person.
Time to throw a fit: Listen, David: I'm not gonna listen to any Dvorak symphony until you do an 'IDEAL DVORAK CYCLE' talk! Also: Thanks. Best Tchai 4 = Markevitch. Could make any deaf people be able to hear again. Edit: Boy, Klemps smokes in Tchaikovsky's 5th!
1. Smetacek/Prague SO 2. Previn/LSO 3. Rozhdestvensky/Grand SO 4. Jansons/Oslo PO ... or .... Szell/Londos So 5. Dmitriev/Academic SO of S.Peterburg Philh. ... or ... Gergiev/BRSO (unofficial record 1989) 6. Mravinsky/Leningrad SO. Manfred - Petrenko Amen. :)
Tchaikovsky will once again be popular. After all, one could do worse than to be obvious. His operas are criminally underrepresented in the standard repertoire as are R-K's (but that's largely a language issue -- singers don't want to learn Russian/Czech/Polish/Hungarian/etc.). Per the symphonies, I have Temirkanov's cycle and don't feel like I'm missing anything but then I love Bruckner unreservedly. Looking forward to your vid on Balakirev and Borodin symphonies and the R-K "symphonies", especially Antar.
Tchaikovsky has never really been unpopular. Just nudged aside whilst Bruckner and some others are flavour of the decades. If, like me, you come back to Tchaikovsky after a fair while, then his symphonies retain their freshness and their striking visceral quality.
Hello Dave, there is something bugging me about Fricsay 's versions of the 6th. The final part of the 3rd Movement (march), his interpretation starts slow and gradually builds up speed to a quicker tempo. Comparing with Mravinsky's version, he starts at a upbeat speed and maintains the same pace. Which is closer to Tchaikovsky's score?
@@DavesClassicalGuide To be honest, I like Mravinsky's approach. In fact, the 4,5,6 are probably my favourite versions but the sonics let the performances down. I am a bit finicky on sound. Bass is the obvious tell-tale. At climaxes it falls through the floor. Fricsay's version is tighter and makes the difference. A more balanced version is Ashkenazy's 6th.
@@mickeytheviewmoo Then go with what you like. In some cases I think it's necessary to stick to the letter of the score--often it explains why a performance seems to be in trouble--but when it comes to tempo fluctuations no composer before Stravinsky expected absolute rigidity--and to be honest, not even then.
It was fairly common for conductors to add a ritardando before that second (and must be short!) cymbal clash - Fricsay did it, Markevitch did it, and others too. What Fricsay does brilliantly in the 3rd movement is just whip it up into a frenzy... Yes, Mravinsky, Pletnev, and others play it fast and maintain the speed, and perhaps are truer to the score (Mravinsky never did a short cymbal clash though) but there is something about Fricsay's approach that just nails it, for me at least.
I can't help just for a moment being upset with you........you give us so many marvelous insights and suggestions but apparently are incapable of showing us how to increase the hours in a day we need to listen to all these wonderful gems😀.......oh well, keep these tremendous videos coming. I feel I am receiving an incomparable musical education when I listen to you!
1: Karajan Berlin Phil 2: Bernstein NYP 3: Boulez USSR 4: Böhm Czech Philharmonic 5: Abbado Berlin Philharmonic 6: Celibidache Torino Radio Manfred: Svetlanov Berlin Philharmonic
Franck's 6th is highly emotional (1st and 4th movements) but the march is just too slow, if he had picked up the pace a bit it would have been more of a contender, for me.
Yeah, there are definitely some spots that I personally would conduct faster. And yet, the tempos for me seem to be almost a secondary issue. Franck still makes an incredible impact.
My list is:- No.1 Jansons Oslo No.2 Muti Philharmonia No.3 Markevich LSO No.4 Mravinsky Leningrad No.5 ?? I can't have Mravinsky so a miss. No.6 Ormandy Philadelphia (CBS) Manfred is a work I just cannot bother with.
I've the impression the sound on the samples I can hear of Fricsay's Orfeo recording is possibly better than the DG recording. Any comments on the performance?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for your reply. My memory seems to have let me down. One way or another I've been comparing samples of the 1953 DG recording to the Orfeo one. Listening again to the video has made things clear.
Mravinsky for sure. I also like Rojdestvenski, and Rostropovich conducting the Tchaikovsky symphonies. Golovanov made a remarquable 6 th. in a really so so ancient sound but he is fascinating with all the liberties and risks he took: it is a document I know, not for audiophile,
It's almost unfathomable to think Tchaikovsky has fallen out of favor. In the hearts of the audience, it cannot be the case... and in the minds of the "serious" musicians, producers and critics, it must at least be a guilty pleasure.
There shouldn't be any guilt about Tchaikovsky whatsoever; he was phenomenal. My god could he pack a piece of music to the brim with tunes and emotions and still have it scored brilliantly. He and Dvorak were the reasons I fell in love with 'classical' and they have remained my favorite composers, despite all the other great ones I have discovered.
This is definitely a controversial topic, but regarding no one buying music I am one of those people who has never brought a CD of music. As much as streaming music on your phone could never match the sound, I just can't seem to justify spending the money when now it is possible to get a 1 year subscription on Primephonic for £140 or so, for all the music I could want. Maybe this is just because I'm 17 and don't have all the money in the world for music, but being able to freely explore, download, and stream whatever music I feel like, for a lower cost, seems like better bang for buck. Would you (anyone!) recommend buying just a few CDs of favourite pieces to see how it compares? Thanks
Not really a controversial topic, you are part of the younger generation that doesn’t buy CDs. I don’t think young people have stopped desiring physical products, you probably just buy other kinds of things, you know better than me what they are. I personally use online services to sample music, and CDs for serious listening. So I only buy CDs after sampling the recording, in the past you had to go to a record store to do this. As I don’t have any premium subscription I cannot comment on the sound quality, but it does seem that online services do something to homogenize the sound. I don’t really like the idea that the selection of music is outside of my control, and stuff can be removed at any time, but being able to explore so much music is a wonderful thing.
If you don't have a really good home stereo system (which includes a room with decent acoustics, unless you do all your listening on headphones), it probably doesn't make any sense to buy CDs when you can subscribe to a streaming service and get mp3 quality.
@@flowsouth8496 What you say about the selection of music being outside of your control strikes a chord. It's the same reason I've never really listened to classical music on the radio. I'd rather explore music on my own terms than someone else's.
Here is my ideal Tchaikovsky symphony list: Sym 1: Pablo Heras-Casado, Orchestra of St. Luke’s Sym 2: Geoffrey Simon, London Symphony Orchestra Sym 3: Neeme Jarvi, Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra Sym 4: Michael Tilson Thomas, San Francisco Symphony Sym 5: Gustavo Dudamel, Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela Sym 6: Walter Jurgens, Berlin Symphony Orchestra (A perfect performance in my opinion that I had on vinyl from many years ago but cannot find on CD) Manfred Sym: Riccardo Muti, Philharmonia Orchestra
"Walter Jurgens" was one of the many aliases, depending on record label, used for Hans-Jurgen Walther (1919-2011). I have a cheap recording of Scheherazade where his alias is "Hans Ledermann".
I've listened to them and I think they have some good moments and some dull moments. Obviously they are all well-played, but I feel that there could be more drama injected (they feel a bit straight).
I would not dare compete with a list like that - half the recordings are truly legendary, and the other half I have not heard yet. I'll fix that. Now for my own list - these are not meant to be the best. These recordings are the antidote for the cool detachment of today that prefers indifferent Bruckner performances to good Tchaikovsky performances. All of these recordings let it all hang out in one way or another. Good taste is not an end in itself. 1. Rostropovich/LPO - Tchaikovsky's most "classical" symphony in a very atmospheric reading. 2. Stravinsky/NY Philharmonic - Stravinsky conducting music he loved. Robert Craft did not make this recording for him :-) 3. Dorati/LSO - a modern view but with great intensity in the strings (I like his versions of all 3 early symphonies). 4. Celibidache/Munich - a contrarian view. Very slow and radiant rather than brisk and dramatic. 5. Stokowski/New Philharmonia - yeah, there are cuts and stuff. But it is so shamelessly passionate! 6. Toscanini/NBC - stupendous. Manfred - Oops -I have to edit this one. I had down Markevitch, but I've got the LSO already. I'll go with Silvestri.
1. Temirkanov (HM: Gergiev) 2. Bernstein (HM: Muti) 3. It sucks, sorry. Except for the Scherzo, which is a mini-masterpiece. 4. Nelsons (HM: Koussevitzky live in 49) 5. Mravinsky live in the 80s (HM: Monteux) 6. Kondrashin live or studio (HM: Fricsay II) Manfred: Rozhdestvensky or Svetlanov (uncut)
Mr Hurwitz: What a fantastic program. I had just finished listening to the Tchaikovsky 5 conducted by Klemperer and was marveling at the inner details and just how balanced the entire music is. And then heard your program and your recommendation. This symphony can quickly degenrate into pastiche and does so with most conductors (about 95% of them!). And hahaha about the Bruckner mania. Your posts are fantastic (i disagree on a few (Beethoven and Brahhms symphonies) and i shall keep them to myself!). Many thanks and belated but warm wishes for the new year. Hari
Thanks, and Happy New Year to you too!
What an interesting set of suggestions! Agree that several of them are exceptionally good (including Klemps in No. 5 and of course Fricsay and Mravinsky). Here's a different 'ideal' set, which does me for today even if I change my mind tomorrow (especially about the first three).
1. Smetáček/Prague SO (Supraphon)
2. Jurowski/LPO (live, LPO own label)
3. Neeme Järvi/Gothenburg (BIS)
4. Svetlanov/USSR State SO (live perf., Canyon Classics)
5. Matačić/Czech PO (Supraphon)
6. Mackerras/Philharmonia (live perf., Philharmonia own label)
I have that LP of Michael Tilson Thomas! I used to listen to it every New Years Eve!
Love Tchaikovsky; love Bruckner. No competition. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Your picks for the ideal cycle, Dave, were also mine in 1, 3, 4, and 6. Since I don't want to repeat your choices, I had to think of alternatives, and here is what I came up with for my "ideal" Tchaikovsky cycle:
1: Bernstein/NYPO. Vivid, atmospheric, and con amore throughout.
2: Mehta/LAPO. Best tam-tam crash in the finale (the moment in the entire Symphony I always wait with bated breath to hear).
3: Karajan/BPO. As sensitive as Haitink and more passionate (though to be fair my first pick would have been Haitink if I hadn't decided to avoid any of the Hurwitz choices}.
4. Solti/CSO. As exciting as Mravinsky in the finale and better recorded. A brilliant performance all around with superb playing from the CSO.
5. Koussevitzky/BSO. Yes, I know this is an "historical" recording in dated sound. But the playing of the BSO is transcendently beautiful, especially in the slow movement, and the Russian soul of the conductor channels the Russian soul of the composer perfectly.
6: Ormandy/Philadelphia/Sony. It's easy to underestimate Ormandy, but he was at his finest in Tchaikovsky, especially his CBS/Sony versions of 4, 5 and 6. His Pathetique has enormous dignity, even majesty, along with the razzle-dazzle of the Scherzo/March and the gloom and doom of the finale, neither of which are overdone. The symphony says everything it needs to, with eloquence and superior playing from the Philadelphians.
Manfred: Haitink/RCO. The Haitink set remains for me a kind of benchmark among complete cycles, not least because of his sensitive, thoughtful and eminently musical Manfred. And, the playing of the RCO is as gorgeous here as it is in the Third.
Thanks, Dave for an enjoyable tour through your Ideal Tchaikovsky cycle.
1 - Bernstein (New York Philharmonic)
2 - Karajan (Berliner Philharmoniker)
3 - Mehta (Los Angeles Philharmonic)
4 - Solti (Chicago Symphony Orchestra)
5 - Böhm (London Symphony Orchestra)
6 - Klemperer (Philharmonia Orchestra)
M - Ormandy (The Philadelphia Orchestra)
1 or 2 ... I have not listened to a sufficient number of recordings
3 - Maazel, Wiener Philharmoniker
4 - Karajan, Wiener Philharmoniker (on the other hand, I think Karajan's Vienna recording of the sixth is a frisbee)
5 - Stokowski, New Philharmonia (despite the cuts)
6 - Bernstein, New York (DG)
M - Muti, Philharmonia
The performance that i like of your selection is Metha in the third. I think it gets overlooked because its part of a cycle. For some reason he gets to grip and give a performance which is top notch. Its definitely the highlight of cycle, which in places can be seen as ordinary but consistent
Klemperer's 6th is pretty good apart from the march. Far too slow and dull.
It's hard to imagine Bohm conducting Tchaikovsky.
@@ThreadBomb isn't it just. Try the end of his 4th first movement... Very un-Böhm-like!
I have just re-listened to the Fricsay 6th on Orfeo. Haven't listened to it in a long time and you reminded me of its existence. It is a marvellous performance. Really, perhaps the best ever. There are so many reasons to love this performance, the phrasing is beautiful throughout and he just absolutely nails everything about it from the first movement development section to the absolutely grotesque march, and what a finale. The finale is just... Wow. The drama, the tension, the emotion.
Incidentally, this Orfeo recording seems more readily available digitally than the later DG one so for anyone that hasn't heard it, it is coupled with Bartók's 3rd Piano Concerto (with Annie Fischer) and it's available on both YT Music and Spotify. Listen to it and be amazed.
I have the Tilson-Thomas original DG release and the sound is just so ethereal. Happy to see your choice.
Refreshing to have Klemperer recommended for no. 5....
I just bought the Klemperer Romantic Symphonies box, which has numerous unique performances of known repertoire (and some can be an acquired taste), but the Tchaikovsky 4, 5 and 6 are all pretty wonderful. A very dramatic 6 too, and a 4 that has the finale taken at a slower - not glacial - tempo, which allows one to hear the instrumentation more, while the conductor underscores some details that make it exciting to hear. But I am of course here to comment on the 5, and it is an extremely well balanced reading that keeps things moving, delivers emotions where you want them, and has the Philharmonia playing at their best, the low strings, e. g., and all those textures in the woodwinds that David mentioned. Klemperer seems to have been, remarkably, quite an advocate for Tchaikovsky, just not the saccharine "emo" style some early interpreters would make it seem. This is serious top-drawer work, and he treats it like one.
The anecdote provided in the notes tells that Walter Legge himself praised Klemperer's essays into Romantic repertoire. His notebook reportedly contains a remark about the old giant being in unbelievable form throughout the early 1963 sessions, with his T. 5 in particular described thus: "the results are hair-raising"! Says a man who had basically seen (heard) it all. And it was not even a phrase penned for publicity - those are supposed to have been Legge's private notes. I think it is telling, and I was happy to agree. :)
Some excellent recommendations there David. Absolutely my favourite of all the composers and have heard hundreds of performances of these great works. I'm surprised not to see Markevitch in your list given he was your top recommendation for the full cycle (but perhaps that is why). It's difficult to disagree with any of your recommendations (especially the superb Fricsay Pathétique) but here's an alternative IDEAL list from me...
1: Philharmonia/Svetlanov (a live recording - one of his last performances - in London, just wonderful)
2: LSO/Dorati (the recordings of 1-3 on Mercury are superb in every way and this is thrilling)
3: LSO/Markevitch (excellent performance)
4: LSO/Böhm (a bit of a sleeper this one but Dr Böhm not known for being an exciting conductor absolutely goes for it with the 4th - just listen to the end of the first movement!)
5: RPO/Gatti (wonderfully played with real grandeur in the finale)
6: VPO/Maazel (has everything - enough emotion in the first movement, a quick march - with a short second cymbal clash! - and split strings in the finale which is taken at a good pace)
Manfred: Paris Conservatoire Orchestra/Silvestri (has to be, especially with that mighty organ at the end!)
If I could have chosen the same conductor twice I'd have gone for Silvestri's 5th with the Philharmonia. But if I'm only allowed to have one then it has to be the Manfred!
Oh yes, the Dorati, very good!
My ideal cycle:
1. Rostropovich, London Philharmonic.
2. Markevitch, London Symphony.
3. Haitink, Concertgebouw.
4. Abbado, Wiener Philharmoniker.
5. Klemperer, Philharmonia.
6. Bernstein, NYP (DG).
Manfred: Muti, Philharmonia.
Great video: Tchaikovsky is my favorite composer and I really enjoy your takes (although I don't always agree with you).
I've gotta share an admonition we got from our 1959 summer-music-camp orchestra conductor - "you kids just haven't suffered enough to play Tchaikovsky."
Tchaikovsky was my first love in classical music, back in my teens (meaning more than 50 years ago...). He’s still at my heart and I have my personal ideal list of his symphonies, based more at affective than musical grounds (for instance, I must admit I am a Mravinsky addicted...), and so my list doesn’t match with yours but who cares? I heard each one of your choices at Apple Music and they are wonderful! But Man: Fricsay’s Pathetic, which I never heard before your talk, it’s absolutely perfect! Thank you so much for teaching such a beautiful new trick to this old dog! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I think for the 4th I go for Mengelberg and 5th of Karajan and Bernstein really did a great job on the 6th.
David, Your list is superb, and mirabile dictu, I agree with every single one of your choices. I was simply blown away first time I heard the Mravinsky 4th and the Fricsay 6th and consider them to be two examples of the greatest things ever captured by a microphone. That being said, I will also put in a good word for Karajan's Philharmonia 4th and Constantin Silvestri's Philharmonia 5th and 6th (his 4th is perverse!)
Yes, mirabile dictu, aka Holy Crap!
I first heard Mravinsky's 4, 5 & 6 on WJZZ out of Bridgeport, Conn. Do you remember their endless cycle of the "Top 100 Classical Selections," all of which were orchestral? It was my Basic Orchestral Repertoire 101. The Mravinsky's were the first echt-Russian performances I had ever heard, and they scared the living daylights out out of me. Now, of course, I love them dearly and listen to them often. But I look forward to checking out the Klemperer (who knew?) and Fricsay. (Of course, there's the Furtwangler 6th, which his claque and other Germanophiles seem to think is the only justification for the Symphony's existence.)
Thanks for the video David! I have to admit I am surprised at your" (ugh!)Bruckner!" exclamations as you have done so many excellent reviews of his works and appear during them to like and appreciate said works :) Ahh well he remains my favorite composer and you remain my favorite critic nonetheless !
The Tilson Thomas can be found in an Eloquence twofer; at least for now.
#1: Jurowski/LPO; Coupled with that stunning 6th, it's truly lovely
#2: Mehta/LAPO: Because why the heck not? I have a fondness for Giulini on EMI, but the finale is all cut up
#3: Markevitch/LSO; one of my favorite cycles and a great performance
#4: Ormandy/Philadelphia (CBS/Sony); others are more exciting, more sharp...I find I don't much care. The RCA remake is pretty beautiful, too.
#5: Szell/Cleveland; I also love Szell's LSO 4th (Decca) and Mussorgsky Pictures, and nobody talks about those either. Szell was hardly a Russian specialist and the sound is dated, but it's my pick.
#6: Munch/BSO: I wanted to pick Eshenbach on Ondine, but I already used Philly. Monteux in Boston (also on RCA) is also gorgeous
Manfred: Silvestri, on Warner or Testament
I'd forgotten about the Jurowski; I like that whole cycle quite a bit!
Had leg surgery yesterday. Woke up this morning to Dr. Hurwitz's medicinal video and now I'm feeling much better. You should have been a doctor David. Note: I recall old B.H. Haggin's volume Music Observed, where he ranked Tchaikovsky above Brahms.
I wish you a full and speedy recovery!
For symphonies, overtures and violin concertos, Haggins may have been right!
As a corollary to my initial list, here are some “sleeper” choices:
Sym 4 - Szell/LSO
Sym 5 - Stokowski/NPO; yes, Stoki cuts some music and plays with orchestration, but this is very committed and passionate
Sym 6 - Ormandy/Philadelphia(Sony) - beautifully realized, gorgeously played (those strings are incredible)
All of Stokowski's 4ths are exciting if nothing else!
These two are on my list too! I could not imagine life without Szell 4!!
Agree totally on Stokowski's 5th, Ormandy's 6th; haven't heard the Szell
Every single one of Tchaikovsky's symphonies deserves a regular place in concert halls, especially the Little Russian and the Polish It is a bit curious that the man who wrote The Nutcracker and the 1812 Overture isn't more prominent in modern performance and recordings. He is an accessible composer that leaves listeners smiling more often than not. I see no reason why more Tchaikovsky has to come at the expense of Bruckner or any other composer in particular. This is an excellent ideal cycle which I have no quibble with. A couple of sleepers I think people should think about: Svetlanov's 2nd with the USSR Symphony Orchestra, Hermann Scherchen's 4th with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra, Kitajenko's 1st with Cologne, and Kletzki's Pathetique with the Philharmonia. I know you aren't doing the "7th" for the obvious and fair reason that it is a reconstruction by someone else, but boy did Philadelphia and Ormandy do a great job.
Maybe the problem is that Bruckner (and germanic traditional composers) are to Tchaikovsky what he himself was to other contemporary Russian composers (Borodin, Glinka, Balakirev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Cui, Taneyev, Rubinstein, Lyapunov, etc.) in the Western world. I think that it is a question of pure marketing. I would like to know how Russian or Asian concert houses treat 'their' composers nowadays. Tchaikovsky might be seen by musicologists as a pop tunesmith (alla Dvorak) who supossedly did not manage form well and thus did not create a lasting school. The great Russian composers of the 20th century do not seem to have anything in common with Tchaikovsky. Rachmaninoff, who I think is the closest to Tchaikovsky's heritage, was popular in the middle of the 20th century, but musicologists tend to despise him (therefore he is 'not' a great Russian composer) and record companies occasionally use his works as showpieces for new artists (Lisitsa? Trifonov?). On the other hand, I have never find Stravinsky or Shostakovich as heirs to Tchaikovsky. Every one must do a little bit of Shostakovich, like Bruckner. Prokofiev would be the closest to a 20th century Tchaikovsky, but again, he does not seem to fare so well nowadays with record companies or concert houses as he once did.
I think the reason Tchaikovsky may have lost his standing is overexposure. For a lot of classical music fans, Tchaik was a formative part of their musical interests, but if you listen to something too much when you are young, it's normal to find it tiresome in later years.
My ideal list:
1.- Karajan/Berliner Philharmoniker (DG)
2.- Markevitch/LSO (Philips)
3.- Boult/London Philharmonic (DECCA)
4.- Abbado/Wiener Philharmoniker (DG)
5.- Koussevitzky/Boston Symphony (RCA, 1944)
6.- Van Kempen/Concertgebouw (Philips)
MANFRED.- Masur/Gewandhaus (Teldec)
My list: No 1- Muti, No. 2- LSO\Dorati No.3- . N Jarvii (BIS) No. 4- Markevitch, No 5- VPO\ Gergiev No 6- Mravinsky , Manfred- Jurowski
Hello Mr Hurwitz!
Fred from Sweden here again.
I wonder if you could made a talk about recordings of Mozart's operas? Maybe you could also consider to do a talk about recordings of Schubert's piano sonatas.
Best wishes Fred.
They are on my list.
Here's my list - a bit different to some, and the Fricsay has been on my music playlist for years.
#1 First 2 movements I listen to Haitink and 3rd and 4th Rostropovich
#2 Giulini
#3 Muti
#4 Bernstein
#5 Karajan
#6 Fricsay
Manfred Muti
#7 Ormandy
Great now i got to listen to all my cds.
I just got hold of the fabled Mravinsky recording of #s 4/5/6, after seeing it hyped by reviewers for years, and despite all that buildup, it still manages to be startling in its intensity. No other performances of these works I've heard are as riveting as these. I'm very happy to have this set -- but that doesn't mean I'm throwing away Bernstein and Temirkanov. I don't always want total insanity in a Tchaikovsky performance. On some days, mere neurosis is all I require!
The ones I'm pretty sure are these:
No. 1 - Markevitch
No. 5 - Karajan (EMI) (the timpani here are stunning)
Manfred - Haitink
I have to think about the others.
Karajan - yes, it's a shame about the sonics on some of those EMI recordings, but 5 was fine.
There is a wonderful set from Diapson D'or of the symphonies, concertos and chamber works of Tchaikovsky. It has many recordings I had never heard before. For example, the First Symphony conducted by Golovanov and the Second by Mitropoulos with the Minneapolis SO. Just amazing stuff!
Late to the game and yes I know I'm breaking the rules.
I find nothing to disagree with on anyone's list but for me there is a glaring omission: Pierre Monteux who recorded the last 3 symphonies in stellar performances and great sound with the Boston Symphony. Hard to find but available in 1) The Pierre Monteux: Complete RCA STEREO Recordings, 2) A separate box from the Monteux Edition: Tchaikovsky: Symphonies Nos. 4, 5 & 6. 3) The now very expensive Pierre Monteux: Complete RCA Album collection. With searching some may be found individually. The 6th is part of the Living Stereo SACD collection and I have the 4th on a JVC pressing that does not seem to be available anymore.
More easily found is a live 1963 LSO/Vienna Festival performance on Vanguard CDs of the 6th Symphony with the Romeo and Juliette Overture and Concerto 1 with John Ogden.
Warm, brilliant, exciting readings. Perhaps without the last ounce of fire the Russians may bring but with an expansive, romantic and at times even danceable quality Monteux brought to his performances.
Not to be ignored.
Actually, the live 1963 LSO/Vienna Festival performance on Vanguard is Symphony No. 5, not Symphony No. 6. The whole performance also shows up on a Silverline disc, with
both stereo and 5.1 in two formats: DVD-Audio and Dolby Digital. In any case, I enjoyed it
quite a lot.
In the face of such an excellent list, what can one add? As the latin phrase goes 'homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos':
1st Oslo Jansons - a spirited, unaffected reading.
2nd Concertgebouw Haitink - truly great.
3rd BPO Karajan - Can't use Haitink, so Karajan's wonderful reading is no slouch.
4th LSO Szell - Classic reading and splendid finale.
5th Leningrad PO Mravinsky (Stereo) - Superb and I don't care a jot about the wobbly horn solo vibrato in the slow movement!
6th PO Ashkenazy - fantastic sombre reading.
Manfred PO Muti - Someone who actually believes in the piece!
Hey Dave, many thanks for another great video!
I was checking Mravinsky’s Pathetique and from one of your reference recordings’ recommendations there seems to be two of them, both on DG. I would say the 1960’s one, but can’t seem to find the other. Maybe a mono one? Thanks again!
Yes, there is a mono one and a stereo one.
Mine breaks the rules because it includes the same conductor twice and uses one of yours.
Void as needed.
1: Michael Tilson Thomas / Boston Symphony Orchestra (DG)
2: Lorin Maazel / Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra (Telarc)
3: Mariss Jansons / Oslo Philharmonic (Chandos)
4: Daniel Barenboim / Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Teldec)
5: Mariss Jansons / Oslo Philharmonic (Chandos)
6: Mikhail Pletnev / Russian National Orchestra (Virgin)
Manfred: Riccardo Chailly / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (Decca)
I love everything Tchaikovsky, and it's hard to pick a favorite symphony, but I dearly love No. 3. There's that thing the strings do in mov. 4 ..... yeah, and the chorale in mov. 5 ..... yeah, yeah ..... oh and, and the tympani ...... yeah!
Ditto you on Bruckner.
That Ashkenazy Manfred is also in the really great box, "Decca Sound: The Analogue Years." That has a TON of great stuff in it, of which this is one.
I have heard good things about the Mehta /LAPO cycle . Am not sure whether it was a digital recording. Has 1812, Romeo & Juliet etc but no Manfred. Would be interested in knowing what you think of it,Dave.
Please watch the other video on Tchaikovsky cycles (boxed sets).
@@DavesClassicalGuide Oops, my bad. Just 10 minutes after I posted this I remembered having watched the video you mention. Apologies. I must be getting old.......
Classical fans who say they don’t like Tchaik are like rock fans who hate the Beatles
For most symphonies I have no "absolute" favorite, so there are many possibilities for constructing such a list, with a lot of other conductors as well (like Markevich, Mravinsky, Muti, Haitink, Abbado, Jansons, Svetlanov). One of those possible lists, the list of today, FWIW:
1 - Ivanov (alto)
2 - Rozhdestvensky (same alto box as 1.)
3 - Jurowski (LPO)
4 - Szell (Decca)
5 - Previn (Telarc)
6 - Fricsay (DG, stereo)
Manfred - Pletnev (DG)
David, be careful what you wish for! I guess everybody has personal preferences for conductors, orchestras and interpretations, but here is my pick of versions you didn't mention in your survey:
No 1 Masur/Gewandhaus (the best thing in his complete set, lovingly done)
No 2 Abbado/Chicago (also mentioned in other comments: the outer movements are mind-blowing)
No 3 Muti/Philharmonia (nobody does the brilliance and elegance in this work better)
No 4 Kubelik/Bavarian RSO live in 1969 (this conductor was always compelling live)
No 5 Petrenko/RLPO (the best performance in his recent Onyx set, consistently thrilling and close to Mravinsky)
No 6 Currentzis/MusicAeterna (how can anyone who loves this music not respond to the intensity here, superbly played and recorded)
Manfred Nelsons/CBSO (the best thing Nelsons did in his Birmingham years)
I wonder what you think of this list David.
1: Igor Markevitch & London Symphony Orchestra on Phillips & Decca
2: Evgeny Svetlenov & USSR State Symphony Orchestra on Canyon Classics & Exton (Japan Live Recording)
3: Mariss Jansons & Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra on Chandos
4: Gennady Rozhdestvensky & Grand Symphony Orchestra of All-Union National Radio Service & Central Television Networks on Melodiya
5: Leonard Bernstein & New York Philharmonic on Deutsche Grammophon
6: Vyatcheslav Ovtchinikov & Moscow Radio Symphony Orchestra on Warner
Manfred: Bernard Haitink & Concertgebouworkest on Decca
R&J: Valery Gergiev & Mariinsky Orchestra on Decca
1812: Antal Doráti & Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra on Mercury & Universal
I''m not a fan of Ovchinikov, but if you like it, then bravo!
That Fricsay Pathetique was nice... 😌 thanks.
My favorites:
Karajan's first recording for EMI stereo now very well remastered! also Giulini for EMI, Karajan DGG, Markevitch, Mravinsky, Rozhdestvensky ...
My ideal cycle: 1 - Tilson Thomas (the best ever); 2. Markevitch - LSO; 3. Bernstein - NYPO (Bernstein can milk this of all the emotion Tchaikovsky has); 4 - Rozdensvensky - LSO; 5 - Ormandy - Philadelphia Orchestra; 6 - Levine - Chicago Symphony; Manfred - Muti - Philharmonia.
David, since you asked for our list - 6/Reiner/CSO, 5/Szell/Cleveland/4/Ormandy/Philly/2/Maazel/VPO - I have no faves of the others yet. The ones I picked are mostly sentimental favorites. I also have the Fricsay you mentiond and greatly enjoy it.
There are so many good performances of Tchaikovsky's symphonies that it's difficult to get the 'bests' ones. I remember with such a very special love Dorati Sym. No. 3, Stokowsky No. 5 and Ormandi and Monteux 'Pathetique'. Another suprise in these days it's Tilson Thomas Sym. No. 5 (I prefer it than Mravinsky, for example).
Not to be discordant but I found MTT/SFS to be very disappointing. I found it to be purposely underplayed. Just IMHO.
1 - Svetlanov - USSR State Academic SO
2 - Solti /L'Orchestre de la Société des Concerts du Conservatoire de Paris (Decca)
3 -LAPO / Metha (Decca)
4 - Abbado/VPO
5 - Jansons /Oslo PO (chandos)
6 - Ashkenazy/PO (Decca)
Manfred: Muti/Philharmonia
My first 6th was Enrique Batiz. Unfortunately he cut the opening bars. The melody is played twice but he only did it once. So when I heard a broadcast I thought the player had a lapse! However I found out better.
The Batiz 6th is one I've remained fond of. I wonder what the general opinion of his Tchaikovsky is.
( He is obviously out of favour for personal reasons: I'm talking musical issues only.)
What did Batiz do to be out of favour for personal reasons?
@@ThreadBomb Meaning his personal reasons not mine. There was a court case about alleged misconduct to players. Don't know if it's resolved as I have no interest in these things
Great list. I'm re-acquiring the MTT/BSO Tchaikovsky 1 on CD; had it on LP for many years, love the performance. Also checking out Haitink for all the symphonies.
Here is one such ideal list (not duplicating any of your choices)
1 - Jansons/Oslo PO
2 - Dorati/LSO
3 -Jurowski/LPO
4 - Abbado/VPO
5 - Markevitch/LSO *
6 - Mravinsky/Leningrad PO **
Manfred - Muti/Philharmonia
* or Szell/Cleveland, Muti/Philharmonia. The Klemperer is stunningly good.
** I really like Bernstein/NYPO?DG because it is so well played and cathartic (to put it mildly), but not for everyday listening.
Markevitch/LSO could be a choice for amy of the numbered symphonies
No version of No. 6 is for "everyday listening." You'd have to be out of your mind to listen to that every day!
Agreed - poor choice of words. I was awkwardly trying to say that Bernstein’s unique reading would , for me at least, be a less frequent listening choice than other readings.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I have to agree. I love the 6th but when I have listened to the final movement I feel like throwing myself under a truck. There is no other piece of music has that effect on me. Could be a video "Classical music to commit Harakiri"
13:24 Did you say "clip" or "Klemp"? Either way, you got a laugh out of me.
My picks
1: Ormandy/Philadelphia
2: Jurowski LPO
3: Markevitch LSO
4: Solti/CSO
5: Ozawa BSO
6: Bernstein NYP (CLOSE between Karajan/BPO '70s)
I barely keep track of my opinions of various recordings, however, I occasionally write down if I particularly liked some performance. Apparently, I enjoyed Jansons/Oslo on Tchaikovsky 4, and Bychkov/Czech on Manfred. Did not like Gergiev/Wiener on Tchaikovsky 5. That's all I got, but this symphony cycle is definitely up there among my favorites, thanks for the talk!
So since the 3rd is very suite-like, would you consider the Third Suite similarly to be a symphony? I like to think that with #1-6, Manfred, and Suite #3, Tchaikovsky actually died writing his Ninth symphony, which was the incomplete 7th aka the final piano concerto.
I would say not. The suites are suites.
@@DavesClassicalGuide :-) aww let me have my romantic notion that Tchaikovsky died not from cholera, nor a secret plot, but via the CURSE OF THE NINTH *spooky music plays*
@@allenwilliams1306 The suites for orchestra are terrific! I have Stefan Sanderling for 1 and 2, Maazel for 3, Ansermet for 4. (Sanderling's disc of 3 and 4 was so disappointing.)
I got the Klemperer box on your recommendation of his Tchaikovsky Fifth. My pick for the piece had been Rodzinski with the Royal Philharmonic, but I have to give it to Klemperer. My only complaint about Klemperer is that I don't think he indulges himself enough in the finale. I like Rodzinski because he's theatrical without being affected. He gets carried away with the tempos but doesn't make it schmaltzy, the music is still dark and serious in tone. Klemperer makes his point with ingenuity where Rodzinski makes his with showmanship. Still, Tchaikovsky wasn't trying to be Brahms here, and I think Klemperer's reading would be even better if he let loose a little at the end. So I give Klemperer an A and Rodzinski an A-.
I think we got the same Klemperer box! Only I got it for Dvorak's 9th - duly intrigued by David's description of that one! So I basically had the pleasure to discover the grand Tchaikovsky 5 on my own, before getting to this review. It is an exceptional version.
@@bigg2988 Nice! Yeah, that's a great box. I haven't gotten to the Dvorak Ninth yet, though, so I'll have to give it a listen tonight. I agree, it's great to have this channel to help us find the best recordings of different pieces. Hurwitz knows as many more of them than I do, proportionally, than the average person.
I would like to see a video of your personal favorite individual symphonies for Tchaikovsky. Also what is you favorite 1812 overture recording?
My IDEAL Tchaikovsky symphony cycle video contains one list of my choices.
Time to throw a fit:
Listen, David: I'm not gonna listen to any Dvorak symphony until you do an 'IDEAL DVORAK CYCLE' talk!
Also: Thanks.
Best Tchai 4 = Markevitch. Could make any deaf people be able to hear again.
Edit: Boy, Klemps smokes in Tchaikovsky's 5th!
I definitely won't be doing the same haha but this is necessary!!
@@rasmusblomberg7373 that Dvorak Cycle will bring us to the Promised Land - in short dvorakian nirvana
1. Smetacek/Prague SO
2. Previn/LSO
3. Rozhdestvensky/Grand SO
4. Jansons/Oslo PO ... or .... Szell/Londos So
5. Dmitriev/Academic SO of S.Peterburg Philh. ... or ... Gergiev/BRSO (unofficial record 1989)
6. Mravinsky/Leningrad SO.
Manfred - Petrenko
Amen. :)
I love the last couple of movements of the Polish.
Tchaikovsky will once again be popular. After all, one could do worse than to be obvious. His operas are criminally underrepresented in the standard repertoire as are R-K's (but that's largely a language issue -- singers don't want to learn Russian/Czech/Polish/Hungarian/etc.). Per the symphonies, I have Temirkanov's cycle and don't feel like I'm missing anything but then I love Bruckner unreservedly.
Looking forward to your vid on Balakirev and Borodin symphonies and the R-K "symphonies", especially Antar.
ua-cam.com/video/wAed5WauphQ/v-deo.html
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you, didn't know about this one!
Tchaikovsky has never really been unpopular. Just nudged aside whilst Bruckner and some others are flavour of the decades. If, like me, you come back to Tchaikovsky after a fair while, then his symphonies retain their freshness and their striking visceral quality.
Call me sentimental, but I still love the Antal Dorati 1,2 & 3.
Hello Dave, there is something bugging me about Fricsay 's versions of the 6th. The final part of the 3rd Movement (march), his interpretation starts slow and gradually builds up speed to a quicker tempo. Comparing with Mravinsky's version, he starts at a upbeat speed and maintains the same pace. Which is closer to Tchaikovsky's score?
Which do you like best?
@@DavesClassicalGuide To be honest, I like Mravinsky's approach. In fact, the 4,5,6 are probably my favourite versions but the sonics let the performances down. I am a bit finicky on sound. Bass is the obvious tell-tale. At climaxes it falls through the floor. Fricsay's version is tighter and makes the difference. A more balanced version is Ashkenazy's 6th.
@@mickeytheviewmoo Then go with what you like. In some cases I think it's necessary to stick to the letter of the score--often it explains why a performance seems to be in trouble--but when it comes to tempo fluctuations no composer before Stravinsky expected absolute rigidity--and to be honest, not even then.
It was fairly common for conductors to add a ritardando before that second (and must be short!) cymbal clash - Fricsay did it, Markevitch did it, and others too. What Fricsay does brilliantly in the 3rd movement is just whip it up into a frenzy... Yes, Mravinsky, Pletnev, and others play it fast and maintain the speed, and perhaps are truer to the score (Mravinsky never did a short cymbal clash though) but there is something about Fricsay's approach that just nails it, for me at least.
The Finnish conductor Mikko Franck has his own special relation with the sixth. He made a marvelous recording on the label Ondine.
I can't help just for a moment being upset with you........you give us so many marvelous insights and suggestions but apparently are incapable of showing us how to increase the hours in a day we need to listen to all these wonderful gems😀.......oh well, keep these tremendous videos coming. I feel I am receiving an incomparable musical education when I listen to you!
I was thinking exactly the same thing. It would take me a solid week to review only the recordings that I actually own.
1: Karajan Berlin Phil
2: Bernstein NYP
3: Boulez USSR
4: Böhm Czech Philharmonic
5: Abbado Berlin Philharmonic
6: Celibidache Torino Radio
Manfred: Svetlanov Berlin Philharmonic
Giulini also plays the living crap out of the 2nd finale with Philharmonia in the 50s.
My list (Subject to be changed): #1 Karajan, #2 Muti, #3 N.Järvi, #4 Litton, #5 Solti (digital), #6 Franck.
Franck's 6th is highly emotional (1st and 4th movements) but the march is just too slow, if he had picked up the pace a bit it would have been more of a contender, for me.
Yeah, there are definitely some spots that I personally would conduct faster. And yet, the tempos for me seem to be almost a secondary issue. Franck still makes an incredible impact.
My list is:-
No.1 Jansons Oslo
No.2 Muti Philharmonia
No.3 Markevich LSO
No.4 Mravinsky Leningrad
No.5 ?? I can't have Mravinsky so a miss.
No.6 Ormandy Philadelphia (CBS)
Manfred is a work I just cannot bother with.
I've the impression the sound on the samples I can hear of Fricsay's Orfeo recording is possibly better than the DG recording. Any comments on the performance?
Great, as I said in the video.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for your reply. My memory seems to have let me down. One way or another I've been comparing samples of the 1953 DG recording to the Orfeo one. Listening again to the video has made things clear.
@@johanhendrix5907 Phew! That's good. Thanks for the clarification.
#1: Karajan DG, #2: Abbado CBS, #3: Muti EMI, #4: Maazel Telarc, #5: Previn Telarc, #6: Bernstein DG (I know, don’t say it)...
There's lots to like about Previn's 5th
@@joewebb1983 yes I agree, I’m very fond of the Ormandy on RCA as well...
In your opinion who would you say has the most passionate development in the first movement the 6th?
It's not on CD.
Any chance you are referring to Walter Jurgens and the Berlin Symphony Orchestra? I love that performance, but I have only ever seen it on vinyl.
Mravinsky for sure. I also like Rojdestvenski, and Rostropovich conducting the Tchaikovsky symphonies. Golovanov made a remarquable 6 th. in a really so so ancient sound but he is fascinating with all the liberties and risks he took: it is a document I know, not for audiophile,
It's almost unfathomable to think Tchaikovsky has fallen out of favor. In the hearts of the audience, it cannot be the case... and in the minds of the "serious" musicians, producers and critics, it must at least be a guilty pleasure.
There shouldn't be any guilt about Tchaikovsky whatsoever; he was phenomenal. My god could he pack a piece of music to the brim with tunes and emotions and still have it scored brilliantly. He and Dvorak were the reasons I fell in love with 'classical' and they have remained my favorite composers, despite all the other great ones I have discovered.
This is definitely a controversial topic, but regarding no one buying music I am one of those people who has never brought a CD of music. As much as streaming music on your phone could never match the sound, I just can't seem to justify spending the money when now it is possible to get a 1 year subscription on Primephonic for £140 or so, for all the music I could want.
Maybe this is just because I'm 17 and don't have all the money in the world for music, but being able to freely explore, download, and stream whatever music I feel like, for a lower cost, seems like better bang for buck.
Would you (anyone!) recommend buying just a few CDs of favourite pieces to see how it compares? Thanks
Not really a controversial topic, you are part of the younger generation that doesn’t buy CDs. I don’t think young people have stopped desiring physical products, you probably just buy other kinds of things, you know better than me what they are.
I personally use online services to sample music, and CDs for serious listening. So I only buy CDs after sampling the recording, in the past you had to go to a record store to do this. As I don’t have any premium subscription I cannot comment on the sound quality, but it does seem that online services do something to homogenize the sound. I don’t really like the idea that the selection of music is outside of my control, and stuff can be removed at any time, but being able to explore so much music is a wonderful thing.
If you don't have a really good home stereo system (which includes a room with decent acoustics, unless you do all your listening on headphones), it probably doesn't make any sense to buy CDs when you can subscribe to a streaming service and get mp3 quality.
Streaming is fine for exploring, but there is a special feeling of physically owning a great recording that you can't get any other way.
@@flowsouth8496 What you say about the selection of music being outside of your control strikes a chord. It's the same reason I've never really listened to classical music on the radio. I'd rather explore music on my own terms than someone else's.
@@ThreadBomb hahaha that's very true
# 1: Jurowski/LPO
# 2: Markevitch/LSO/Newton
# 3: Karajan/BPO/DG
# 4: Abbado/VPO/DG
# 5: Szell/Cleveland/Sony
# 6: Mravinsky/LPO/DG
Manfred: Muti/PO/EMI
I like your selection particularly No.4 and Abbado. One of those performances with Conductor and Orchestra at their peak.
@@mickeytheviewmoo Totally. The whole performance is organic and unfussy. Very Russian sounding too, IMO.
Looking forward to this one...
Oh, I forgot Manfred: Gauk - Brilliant Classics
Here is my ideal Tchaikovsky symphony list:
Sym 1: Pablo Heras-Casado, Orchestra of St. Luke’s
Sym 2: Geoffrey Simon, London Symphony Orchestra
Sym 3: Neeme Jarvi, Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra
Sym 4: Michael Tilson Thomas, San Francisco Symphony
Sym 5: Gustavo Dudamel, Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela
Sym 6: Walter Jurgens, Berlin Symphony Orchestra (A perfect performance in my opinion that I had on vinyl from many years ago but cannot find on CD)
Manfred Sym: Riccardo Muti, Philharmonia Orchestra
"Walter Jurgens" was one of the many aliases, depending on record label, used for Hans-Jurgen Walther (1919-2011). I have a cheap recording of Scheherazade where his alias is "Hans Ledermann".
Ormandy for the 6th!
Anybody a comment on Eschenbach's Tchaikovsky 4, 5 and especially 6? Opinions seem to be devided...
I've listened to them and I think they have some good moments and some dull moments. Obviously they are all well-played, but I feel that there could be more drama injected (they feel a bit straight).
My list: 1 LAPO / Metha (Decca) , 2,3,4, RNO / Pletnev (DG), 5 Arctic Phil /Lindberg (BIS) 6 Philharmonia/ Ashkenazy (Decca) Manfred Concertgebouw/ Chailly (Decca)
I love Tchaikovsky but...what's wrong with Bruckner?
Oh for heaven's sake, I do wish some folks here would lighten up.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'm sorry, thought that you didn't like Bruckner. This was my first video.
@ That's OK. I love Bruckner. Doesn't mean I don't find him or his "people" humorous.
I would not dare compete with a list like that - half the recordings are truly legendary, and the other half I have not heard yet. I'll fix that.
Now for my own list - these are not meant to be the best.
These recordings are the antidote for the cool detachment of today that prefers indifferent Bruckner performances to good Tchaikovsky performances. All of these recordings let it all hang out in one way or another. Good taste is not an end in itself.
1. Rostropovich/LPO - Tchaikovsky's most "classical" symphony in a very atmospheric reading.
2. Stravinsky/NY Philharmonic - Stravinsky conducting music he loved. Robert Craft did not make this recording for him :-)
3. Dorati/LSO - a modern view but with great intensity in the strings (I like his versions of all 3 early symphonies).
4. Celibidache/Munich - a contrarian view. Very slow and radiant rather than brisk and dramatic.
5. Stokowski/New Philharmonia - yeah, there are cuts and stuff. But it is so shamelessly passionate!
6. Toscanini/NBC - stupendous.
Manfred - Oops -I have to edit this one. I had down Markevitch, but I've got the LSO already. I'll go with Silvestri.
Poor Bruckner!! 🤣🤣🤣
some of my favourite tchaikovsky is stokowski ahahaha please dont hurt me
I love Bruckner, but your Bruckner growl is inimitable.
I love Bruckner too, just not to the exclusion of all else!
I dont think Bruckner would have liked the cult like status either
1. Temirkanov (HM: Gergiev)
2. Bernstein (HM: Muti)
3. It sucks, sorry. Except for the Scherzo, which is a mini-masterpiece.
4. Nelsons (HM: Koussevitzky live in 49)
5. Mravinsky live in the 80s (HM: Monteux)
6. Kondrashin live or studio (HM: Fricsay II)
Manfred: Rozhdestvensky or Svetlanov (uncut)