Listening to the Boult/RVW box is like sitting down with your grandfather in front of the fireplace and listening to him tell you stories of wonder & amazement...Great Stuff 👍
Just listened to Sea Symphony from Boult - wonderous stories... In my youth I had to listen to Mozart & Beethoven so much I could not bear it any more. I found my way back to classical music because of British composers, especially RVW.
David, thanks for persuading me to give RVW a fair hearing with your earlier videos on him. My only exposure to his symphonies previously had been Haitink's London Symphony which left me cold, then I read some of the looking at cows comments and noticed that recordings seemed to be limited to UK conductors and/or orchestras and wrote him off. One of your earlier videos and the cheap price persuaded me to buy the Slatkin box and I was blown away, particularly by symphonies 3 through 6. I had no idea that RVW wrote intense music like symphonies 4 and 6. Then your video of Job got me looking for a copy and I stumbled into a used 8 disc set of Boult for less than $20 that includes his stereo symphony cycle. It's still in the pile of Hurwitz induced recordings to get to.
I read a story once, and I don't know if it's apocryphal or not. At the final rehearsal for the world premiere of the 4th Symphony, At the end, Vaughn Williams reportedly said "Well gentlemen, if that is modern music you can have it"!
I don’t know if they count as a cycle but Ive really enjoyed Sir Mark Elder’s RVW symphonies. Looking forward to checking out your recommendations, haven’t lead me astray so far!
I have not been impressed by Elder in this music. Here's one of my ClassicsToday.com reviews, and if you're curious you can look up the others: www.classicstoday.com/review/so-so-rvw-3-from-elder-and-halle/?search=1
It’s so frustrating. I get all set to go find Slatkin and nothing is available for less than about $100. $250 in some places. Yet, Haitink is abundant.
I share your enthusiasm at the end that there are 8 different available box sets of RVW's symphonies, which I take to be a testament to the quality of his music and its staying power beyond the first half of the 20th century when most of it was composed.
Ralph Vaughn Williams is an incredibly underrated symphonist. Godzilla in the Shire #4 is my favorite, but 8, 9, 6, and 5 ain’t far behind. I actually have the 9th on Everest from Boult - it’s a fantastic performance but the LP is worth buying just for the somewhat surreal requiem from Sir Adrian. The complete Boult late cycle is the most sympathetic cycle. As you say, very nice colors and textures. Slatkin isn’t far behind and he does indeed do a great 4th and 6th. I agree with you strongly on the Haitink box being highly disappointing - I love Haitink so very much, especially as a Shostakovich maestro, but I ended up pitching the box. For me, Previn is consistently exciting and the 3rd best choice for one-stop shopping. His 4th and 6th aren’t the angriest, but they’re still powerful. Russophiles should check out the Rozhdestvensky box which came up on a subthread above.
I have the Hickox Chandos box. The items he didn't he didn't record were done instead by Sir Andrew Davis. So looks like they'd partially released what may be a final cycle in mixing these two.
I managed to find the Slatkin boxed set used at a local record shop. The previous owner must have worn all of the cologne because it spent a few days in the garage (and the box spent the better part of a year). Thankfully the performances were amazing.
A hugely enjoyable and quite witty talk about music that I really love. I indeed recall the days when Boult and Previn were the only guys in town, VW set-wise, and I absolutely agree that both of those sets (along with Boult's 1950s mono recordings, now available complete and beautifully remastered in a Decca box) have more than stood the test of time. From time to time I've dipped into single cds from some of the other sets discussed here, but none of those quite efface memories of Boult and Previn. I must confess that occasionally I've been tempted by the Haitink box, to the point where I've added it to my shopping cart. But each time, at the last moment, the Voice of Reason has always prevented me from pressing "Buy." I appreciate Slatkin's interpretations, but the performances seem to have been recorded at a fairly low level; the orchestra sounds more distant, less present, than I would prefer. Or is that impression simply a result of some flaw in my stereo system... or, more likely, a buildup of ear wax?
It's definitely an issue with your system. Those recordings are not at all low-level or recessed. Also, I don't think the Boult Decca box is still available new as a physical product (I checked before doing the talk). It's been OP for quite a while and is only offered now as a download.
What are your thoughts on doing a comparison of the three extant cycles, as well as some individual readings, of the Malcolm Arnold symphonies? Or even a general survey of Arnold's orchestral music?
Thanks for this entertaining and informative video! One quibble: I think you meant the Bryden Thomson set on Chandos had the flat dynamics, not the Vernon Handley. Handley with the RLPO has some of the very best dynamics - at least my set. The Thomson, by contrast, was recorded in a church, and those acoustics, while pleasant for live listeners, tends to negate any real dynamic contrasts - there's only so much the sound guys can do in such a space. The same thing plagues von Karajan's Schumann cycle on DG - venue of the recording.
Great work here, David! Completely take your point about Boult's mono cycle, except that if you get Decca 473 2412 you do get the Everest Ninth along with the other eight. And damn, the best of them are very exciting - and they were all (apart from No. 9) supervised by VW - he was literally sitting at a table a few feet from the conductor's desk and took the whole process very seriously. I guess it may be because I got to know all these pieces from those Decca recordings, but I do still love them. I wonder if you're a bit kind about Bryden Thomson's set, though there are some nice things in there in spite of all. Haitink is a puzzle. I heard him give a live performance of No. 4 at the Festival Hall which was (honestly) electrifying. That was in about 1973 but 20 or so years later the fire seems to have gone out of him - a great disappointment. But I can't share any enthusiasm for Handley - the sound is, as you say, pretty horrible, but for me the interpretations have none of Boult's character or cumulative energy (Handley's set has a lot of followers here in the UK but I'm never been one of them - it all just sounds a bit routine to me). How right you are about Previn/LSO not quite standing the test of time, good as it is. By the way, his obscure EMI recording of the Fifth is with the Peabody Orchestra (which is much more exalted than most youth orchestras) and for some reason it's actually the one of his I like best - but that's by the way. As for the spoken superscriptions for Antarctica, VW liked them enough to have them included on Boult's mono recording - which VW supervised closely (and Boult would never have gone against his wishes anyway). But you get it spot on with Boult's stereo cycle, and I'm with you all the way on Slatkin too, I mean they are both superb in different ways. Is the VW set the best thing Slatkin's done on disc? I can't think of anything better. It's interesting what you say about Slatkin's 'London'. Apart from Boult, he's one of the very few conductors to take the Scherzo at the terrifying speed VW wanted (he told Boult it should be 'as quick as possible' and with Slatkin it is). Anyway, a really enjoyable survey and thanks for it.
Many thanks David, it is great and enlightening, to hear your enthusiasm and appreciation of the V W cycle. I grew up on the decca LP of Antarctica ; it was John Gielgud doing the quotes for Boult in between the movements. As a schoolboy 'the speaker' just seemed part of the score (it had originated from a film score, so narration seemed part of the experience). Ralph Richardson was the speaker on the Previn recording, which I thought was very disappointing because of the feeble organ entry in the Landscape movement, a great moment in the terrific Boult performance. Perhaps being an actor makes me more particular about the casting! But I've put aside nostalgia for Gielgud's dulcet tones now and listen more to the music. I have a very vivid memory of a live performance of the 6th Symphony under Constantin Silvestri. Maybe that's why it is the work that excites me most, with that strange last movement.
I remember Boult's mono recording of the Sixth on vinyl. It included Vaughan Williams thanking the musicians for their great efforts and noting particularly the quiet intensity they conveyed in the finale. He praised the fine work of all the gentlemen---"and the lady harpist."
Hi Dave. Another great video prompting me to look for a box set for my collection. I found both the EMI and Warner Boult box sets on Amazon. Is there any difference in sound quality between these two versions? I know the Warner version is the newer pressing. Was there any remastering done with it? Thanks
I request RVW's Ninth Symphony review - this is probably his most puzzling work which I just adore. Now I am listening to the mighty Finale and keep thinking Rautavaara must have been studying this work extensively.
I can think of no other piece of music which evokes the sadness of an old man on his death bed recalling his youth, quietly crying at the end, and then facing his transendance as the fourth movement does. I would draw out the last chord a bit, such that most reviewers would say Bad Taste and Maudlin. Don't care.
Haitink's VW 7th is phenomenal (including the sonics), but the rest fit your description. Slatkin captures the otherworldliness of 8 & 9 like no one else. Previn finds the most menace in 4 & 6.
Love your faultless Adrian Boult impression - you would easily pass for an Englishman :) When I was a teenager I used to wash up glasses in my local pub - the Wheatsheaf at Kingsfold, near the Surrey/Sussex border in south-east England. RVW had collected many folk songs at that pub in the early years of the 20th century. He lived at Dorking, eight miles north of Kingsfold where I grew up. RVW was related to Charles Darwin and to the Broadwood family (of piano fame).
@@DavesClassicalGuide I've only heard the "London" - which I've downloaded as a hi-rez FLAC - and it's similar to the Barbirolli recordings, which I've always liked and have on CD.
I'm so happy to learn that I unintentionally bought two good versions: the Antarctic Symphony by Previn by itself and the cycle by Boult. I say unintentionally because I know nothing about classical music except that it either enchants me or it doesn't.
Thank you, David, for a splendid review. I actually like soft endings. They can put the listener in a contemplative mood, as RVW's soft endings always do. What a great composer! After many years of enjoying the symphonies via Boult (the mono cycle) and Previn, I decided I needed to gain a new perspective on the composer, so I went for the Haitink. This was about 5 years ago. After a while, I began to notice that my enthusiasm RVW was beginning to fade. I was finding the symphonies less enthralling than before. Then I took a cue from your earlier review of the Sea Symphony, in which you spoke very favorably of Slatkin's cycle. Having recently added it to my collection I realize now why my love for RVW's music was beginning the fade. The problem wasn't RVW, it was Haitink's literalism. Slatkin's magnificent cycle has totally renewed my enjoyment of RVW's symphonies. Thanks again for plugging the Slatkin cycle.
The soft ending of the Passacaglia of No. 5, notably in the hands of Andre Previn, is one of the most moving endings to any symphony which I know. Previn himself said that he could be moved to tears by it. And I believe the clarinet solo is by that Prince of the instrument, Gervase de Peyer.
@@salt_cots Thanks for the reply. This soft ending was one of the first passages in RVW that caught my attention decades ago, and revealed to me just how magnificent is his music. The soft ending of No. 6 is another story: chilling rather than uplifting, and in keeping with the minatory qualities of that work. What a range of moods and idioms RVW as able to encompass!
I own the Previn and Slatkin sets, bought individually ages ago. I'm no expert, but always enjoy them. A British magazine did a survey on VW sets. The writer described Previns as "An amiable walkthrough."
@@DavesClassicalGuide I believe he lived to eat his words. Listening to a Virgin Classics budget #5 conducted by Sir Yehudi Menuhin. I'm a musical illiterate. Is it any good? I am enjoying it. He grew up British, but not considered a Brit conductor
Handley. Wonderful sea symphony. Beautiful, heartfelt. Now listening to London symphony. Used to not like this symphony. Now--i love it! Seems handley is more of a human humanistic warm charming endearing interpretation approach. Not just bluster bombast etc. Based just on these 2 recordings. Really wonderful. Sound quality is great!
Well, where do I turn in my Haitink set? :)) Even with the complete smackdown you gave it, I still found I liked the symphonies in that interpretation. They must be really good! :]
I don't think Haitink is that bad. I listened and compared a lot and I'm quite happy to keep Haitink boxset alongside the others. Even David keeps it (maybe as a doorstop only but that's another question). Handley is also very good (I agree that some pieces sound dated, Tallis Fantasia for example, I can't believe EMI did such a poor work back in the 70s)
Any lover of Vaughan Williams' symphonies should hear at least once him conducting No 4. When I first bought my copy I thought I would listen to the opening to see what the sound was like, I was so gripped I ended listening to the whole symphony despite being tired and hungry after work. I know the recording is 85 years old and VW was not a professional conductor. No other version captures the fury and intensity of the music in the same way, or the lonely desolation of the slow movement or the sardonic, galumphing humour of the scherzo.
Exactly. I've had two excellent copies of mint 78s of it, one of the GREAT relics of the shellac era. Likewise the rediscovered live performance of him conducting his Fifth.
I had pretty much ignored Slatkin, but David's videos prompted me to buy this RVW cycle, his 4 disc set of Elgar symphonies, concertos and orchestral pieces, and his 6 disc set of the 3 major Tchaikovsky ballets. All fantastic, and bargain priced.
I agree with you, Mark. Some people tend to dismiss Slatkin as boring or 2nd rate, but that’s not my view at all. Obviously, not everything he ever recorded was brilliant, but there’s not a single conductor who meets that standard.
Have been listening to the Andrew Davis performances which are well played. However, they are dimly recorded. The Pastoral is especially bad with the sound disappearing in some places. Am I right, or am I losing my hearing?
The early digital recordings of Vernon Handley is just like David says. However his analog recording of the 2nd is excellent. Demonstration calibre. Try the EMI LP !!
@@DavesClassicalGuide A fine work I've read is The Music of Ralph Vaughan Williams by the great Michael Kennedy. RVW designated him to do this work. As he assigned his bio to his widow.
Boy were you right on! Compared the SACD versions of the Hickox and the recently released Boult SACD... No comparison. Your description of the "blaah" factor in the Hickox performance was, in mind, exactly right.
The Slatkin version was my first exposure to the Vaughn Williams symphonies. I managed to get the whole boxed set for just $5 used. The version I have is the original 1993/94 one. I've always been bothered by the sound quality on this one. What's so distracting is that it sounds there was not enough resolution to capture the wide dynamic range of the recording. This is especially noticeable in the very quiet passages where you can hear digital artifacts covering the instruments and ambience. This definetly needed 24 bit remastering. I'm aware that Sony released a number of budget box sets of remastered RCA recordings in the mini lp style packaging around the 2010s, such as the Slatkin box you have in this video. However I remember some controversy over these box sets as it was pointed out that Sony applied a lot dynamic compression and overly boosted the volume on many of these remastings, while zapping the impactfulness and clarity out of them. I always wondered how that Vaughn Williams/Slatkin box turned out. The original version definetly needed a higher resolution mastering but not at expense of it's dynamics. Does this new box set do the recordings any justice?
@@DavesClassicalGuide I remember reading a review that echoed your comments, why another Andrew Davis VW 9/Job coupling. Andrew Manze, Martin Brabbyns and Mark Elder are part way through their cycles. In the UK, Classic FM has helped turned the dial back to tonal music and the BBC has followed suit. When I began to follow classical music, Pierre Boulez was appointed principal conductor of the BBC Symphony Orchestra, need I say more? He didn't conduct VW, Elgar, Moeran, Finzi, Bantock, Sir Malcolm Arnold, Sir Edmund Rubbra, Tippett, Benjamin Britten, William Walton or Sir Arnold Bax. So why did they hire him? But we did get the composer Boulez being conducted by the composer. No comment. By the way, you ought to try Malcolm Arnold symphonies and listen to his interview on the Naxos set. It is very moving.
@@tonysanderson4031 I have reviewed the Malcolm Arnold symphonies (including the Naxos set) on ClassicsToday.com and have been writing about them literally for decades.
For me the most hilarious video. I just have one version of these symphonies, bought in the 80's and 90's - and it is Haitink - the worst !!! :) That time The Gramophone was my bible (no internet and international magazines are very expensive - have to choose just one - and I read the issues again and again while spend all my money with new CDs). Now I have to listen these works again with another conductor. That´s the problem with huge collections - some CDs are never listen again.
@@duwir5959 I made a comment in one of his videos about it - he is American biased. Not as much as say Gramophone with the English artists...but it is true. But I like him a lot anyway.
@@hectorberlioz1449 and, to me, Haitinks Pastoral is the very best. I love almost his whole cycle. People indeed have different opinions, may times I don't agree with David, but more often I do (and I am glad Ormandy gets his deserved appreciation as does Haydn), and always enjoy his video's.
Dave, excuse me for interrupting your RV Williams critique, but I would like to interject by requesting you provide a review of another Williams, who deserves some attention: John Williams the film music composer. I am a big classical music nerd, much like you, but I find it hard to believe us classcial nerds would shun anything by John. His scores especially Star Wars really add drama to the movies and are great stand alone works. Can you suggest any noteworthy recordings worth the purchase?
Ok-Sorry you have done videos on John Williams. But deservably, most of his soundtracks are great to listen to as something you can fire up on your home stereo. Would you agree?
Hello, David! Off-topic but I wonder if you come across such a composer as Wojciech Kilar? It seems that his academic output is completely uknown outside Poland (except for Orawa) but he did write some worthy stuff. It would be an interesting theme for one of your repertoire videos, of course, if you find his music good enough for discussion. I know Antoni Wit did almost all of his major works.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I have a similar off-topic question about Miloslav Kabeláč. There is no competition in symphonic sets, but his work deserves attention, right? You must enjoy his percussive language.
Slatkin's recordings of the Vaughan Williams symphonies was released in 1994. When he became the music director of my local orchestra, the NSO, in 1996, I expected he would play lots of Vaughn Williams. No such luck. During his 13 years as NSO music director, he programmed only one piece by Vaughn Williams (the fourth symphony). What a disappointment. RVW is one of my favorite composers. I go to all the concerts of his music I can get to (I once went to San Francisco to see a performance of his opera "The Pilgrims Progress") and I've only been able to hear live performances of five his symphonies (although I have sung "A Sea Symphony" twice.)
I remember the ongoing cycles by Previn and Boult being released and compared. Previn was a breath of fresh air when he arrived in England and I am a huge fan. He was a big "celebrity" on British TV and he reminded me of Lenny. He reached out to audiences and educated them in an interesting, non-condescending way. His cycle probably did more for VW than anyone else (Ditto Walton). Still love it! As for Haitink - I haven't heard his cycle but strangely enough some of my LPO friends who played in the sessions rate it very highly. They admired Haitink's approach. Funny old world, eh?
Boult is no. 1 in my book. I also like very much the earlier DECCA/LONDON recordings. Please note that Barbirolli did a magnificent 2nd Symphony, a mesmeric 5th and a divine 8th. The latter Symphony Vaughan Williams dedicated to Glorious John
I too began my post childhood adult listening (post childhood full of amazement with Beethoven and Stravinsky) with RVWs London and Pastorale - Boult of course. 50 plus years later Dave I am thrillled over the moon to learn of these new recordings. Ever many thanks!! p.s. sad to hear that Haitink is awful - could’ve been ignorance of youth but my favorite Planets was Haitink and LSO. And a dear pal of mine, tympani player, played under Haitink a few times, and has very very high regard for the way he worked and the results (I don’t recall what they played).
@@DavesClassicalGuide You Rock Dave - Thank you. It’s soo great to know that you’re soo on board with RVW!! Glad you agree about that Haitink Planets Lp.
Great video clip, Dave. One minor carp, though. The speaker in Previn's recording of the 7th Symphony (Sinfonia Antarctica) is Sir Ralph Richardson, NOT Sir John Gielgud.
Its a sobering thought but had RVW not survived wartime service in WW1 (he was an artilleryman in the last year of the war) we would just have the Sea Symphony and the "draft" version of the London Symphony.
@@ThreadBomb Yes, he was commissioned into the Royal Artillery in 1917 as a first lieutenant. He later received a War Pension for loss of hearing which was very common amongst artillerymen.
Mr. Hurwitz, again many thanks for your superb review. I have to mention that I disagree on one point: The best version of Symphony No.2 (London Symphony) is the original 1913 version from Mr. Hickox (god bless him). I think it is much better than the reworked versions. Just listened to Boults version, yes Boult is marvelous but No.2 is owned by Hickox. The 1913 version makes much more sense IMO.
The Hickox is dull performance, the work sounds infinitely better in its revised version, and the sonics are surprisingly mediocre for Chandos. Sorry, but I think you're way off base here. Here's my original review: www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6041/?search=1. Of course, to each his own...
Thanks for this survey Dave! I have to say I much prefer Vaughan William's symphonies to Elgar's. In fact, the only British symphonists who come close in my opinion are Malcolm Arnold and George Lloyd (both of whom you have rightly championed but sadly remain far too little known). The only thing I might disagree with is that not all of Hickox's Vaughan William Symphonies were terrible (his 4th is one of the best IMO and I don't dislike his 3rd to the same degree that you do).
I agree with you regarding the 4th (see a link to my CT.com review below), but that 3rd! No way. It's just horrible, as are most of his other versions of the symphonies--so I was speaking in general. www.classicstoday.com/review/review-8007/?search=1
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hickox to his credit did a great Arnold #5 (one of the best British symphonies in my view), but there's nothing much to compare it against.
I know this is "off the wall," but would you please give a talk on Kingsway Hall? So many great performances were captured there in stunning, natural sound. I became enlightened about this place by listening to Klemperer recordings. Thanks.
It was demolished. Good Wikipedia article about it. Every time I am in Holborn I dream of bumping into Klemperer on his way to a recording session with the Philharmonia.
Thank you, Dave. I’m a huge RVW fan. I largely agree with your thoughts, though I admit that I do like some movements from the Haitink cycle, especially the last movement of the 9th, where Haitink’s spaciousness fits the remote, cosmic, mysteriously ethereal nature of the music. I agree that Slatkin London is too fast and that Previn’s is THE best. I also love Boult 2 and Davis. I don’t understand why Davis’s cycle is so neglected-it’s really excellent. I completely agree about the sound of the Thomson cycle, too. It really gets in the way of many good interpretations, though his 9th is too fast. Slatkin’s really does have the best orchestral playing and mostly the best interpretations, though there are a few movements that I prefer elsewhere. What do you think of Manze’s cycle? It is finished now. I noticed that you didn’t include it. As you say, it’s difficult for one interpreter to excell throughout, and I find his set to be variable, but not without some insights.
Previn took VW to American audiences but he played some of these works to an often bored audience.. It's a truth you have to have English blood in your veins to really love and understand this music, and the same is true of Elgar. Slatkin's performances are ideal for an American audience, it's upfront and expect a picture of London that's more like Manhattan. It's VW as realised from across the pond but well played for all that. Boult's poorly recorded London 1950's is great as is Barbirolli's nostalgic view. Add in Previn's pastoral and 5th and the rest with Boults later set and you have the ideal recordings. Best avoid box sets with one conductor.
@@geoffharris9396"It's a truth you have to have English blood in your veins to really love and understand this music." What a load of bollocks. Hurwitz himself I'm guessing doesn't have 'English blood' in his veins and he likes it. This is the sort of snotty attitude that alienates everyone from the music.
@@bencobley4234 Yeah, Hurwitz likes it but he doesn't love it, and that's the point I was trying to make.. As an example Hurwitz says Elgar's ''March of the Mogul Emperors '' is his greatest work ! Really ? Better than the symphonies and concertos ?? Now that really is Bollocks ! And any reviewer (our Dave again) who thinks Arthur Sullivan is Britain's greatest composer cannot be taken seriously when it comes to British music.
Curse you! I was always happy enough with my Haitink box but I just gave the 5th a listen and you're dead right it lacks on performance and sound quality. My only other copies of the 5th are Previn and Andrew Manze with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic - that's a nice sound, a little restrained in the performance but better than Haitink (I appreciate that's not a full set, at least yet).
The quiet final 3 minutes of Andre Previn's No.5 are amazing. The intensity of the string playing is unmatched in rival versions, I think. Previn himself said that final passage used to bring him to tears.
What about the Melodiya Cycle? You missed it out. I love it, it’s really off the wall. I’d love to know what you think of the Russian approach to such an English composer. Great video otherwise 🎶❤️
I always (kind of) hold my breath during your reviews, hoping that you will assign good marks to the version I happen to own. I'm happy to say that I apparently chose well with this one. Slatkin was the director of our orchestra (Detroit) for several years, so I'm pleased when I hear good things about him.
I absolutely love the Slatkin/Philharmonia cycle...amazing performances and the right kind of energy...I have to differ with you about the first movement of the London Symphony, though! I like it the way Slatkin keeps it moving along...feels in keeping with the restlessness of a large city...great video, man! 👍
@@DavesClassicalGuide I do like your 'faux' English! Sir Thomas once said "You always know when Sir Adrian is going to conduct; you can smell the Horlicks from his dressing room!"
@@DavesClassicalGuide You mentioned that you recommend to start your adventure with the cycle from the best, the most stable one. I think the opposite, it should end there (I also consider Slatkin's cycle to be the best)
@@damiangruszczynski7451 If you start your adventure from poor recordings, that may very well end your adventure. Like how I listened to the Haitink recording of RVW's London Symphony 15-20 years ago and decided RVW bored me. Fortunately I watched David's videos on RVW and the Slatkin cycle was cheap and I now have another composer and bunch of music to enjoy.
SPOT ON with the top two cycles. I have those exact ones. I also paired them with their versions of Holst-The Planets. Both VW and Holst were lifelong friends and classmates who, if I am correct, studied under Maurice Ravel. The styles of the two friends and classmates seem to feed off each other. Plus Adrian Boult knew both WV and Holst. So it's an interesting pairing I came up with there. Also spot on with Slatkin's version of the London Symphony, although played very well. The first movement felt like London in rush hour, with people rushing to and from work, not stopping to enjoy the beauty of London. The rest of the symphony wasn't too bad. There was still that English spirit that came through in the symphony.
Hmm... Comments about the critics' reviews of Haitink might apply also to Celibidache in Bruckner - but he is allowed to get away with it! But I love this: I always thought Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 4 was "Godzilla eats Tokyo", if Tokyo were situated in the English countryside.
If only one of my best classical music loving friends were still alive, he would have eaten up your discussion of RVW symphonies! He was a member of the Vaughan Williams Society and really introduced me to the composer, though I already had a recording of one work, Ninth Symphony with Boult on Everest you discussed. Otherwise for me it’s Andrew Davis for 1, 2, 5, 6 and 9; Slatkin for 3, 4, 8 (preceded by the appropriate Fanfare for Glorious John), and 9 again; Boult for 7 along with the fun suite from the Wasps; and Previn (RCA) for 5 again with the wonderful Tuba Concerto. I’ll have to confess that I also have Haitink’s 1 and Hickox’s “original” 2, but agree with you on their merits or lack thereof!
I have the original 2 cos I am interested in the process but yep it isn't bustling to get played and certainly not worth it for non-obsessives. However I did like Hickox's 5 and that's a possible bolt on for those of us who get carried away.
It would be nice if you once said "What I consider the best...whatever" and not feel that you are so categorically right. Tastes, do differ you know...
@@jimyoung9262 Dave calls them as he sees them. Quite right. And some of us do our Walter Brennan Red River impression "You're wrong Mr Hurwitz". But hey it's his channel.
You are so right about English critics. I noticed their bias decades ago when there were artists that could not do wrong, and others that could not do right.
David-- Thanks for this edition. First it made me remember that I have #9 with Boult on Everest in my LP library and am listening to it now. Second, I agree that Slatkin's set is the most satisfying. I have complete sets from Boult #2, Haitink, Previn, Thomson, and Handley. Previn's suffers from its recording quality, although I think the London Symphony sounds better on my LP than on the CD. I think Previn's RCA releases recorded for RCA by Decca are all disappointing considering how good Decca's engineers were. Slatkin doesn't get as much credit as he should. He does a great job on VW, Copland, Barber, and others. By the way, I still like his Dad's Rhapsody in Blue best.
Have to disagree with you about the Slatkin. I bought this set many years ago, sampled a few tracks, put it aside and haven't touched it since. Intrigued by your remarks I just got the set out, played the Toccata of the 8th and realized why I hated it so much. For one, the dynamics are just too great. Set the volume for the climaxes and much of the rest is just background waffle with most of the detail missing. The percussion also sounds like a couple of kids got into the pots and pans. Compare this with Previn's punchy version, where not a detail is missed (despite the deteriorated sound). Best compromise is almost certainly Kees Bakel on Naxos, though this is not from a boxed set. Also disagree about Previn's 9th, which to me is definitive. Just goes to show, one man's hearty meal is another man's steaming pile of....well, we won't go there.
It's about time a non-British orchestra had a crack at these symphonies on record. Re. your point about British critics gushing over Haitink, it's notable how sniffy they are about Slatkin. Maybe because he was American rather than European and was a bit abrasive at times?
Not on record - but available on UA-cam right now - are the downloads from radio transmissions of American orchestras taking on VW symphonies. For example, Ormandy/Philadelphia and the Pastoral symphony or especially, given the recommendation here, symphony no. 5 with Slatkin and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Makes an interesting comparison for my favourite VW symphony.
I have it, as well plus loads others. I find it almost impossible to reconcile what David says about Haitink with the glowing reviews in the English press Radio 3 Building a Library (VW4) and Gramophone. I have been listening for 50 years and I don't get it.
His Shostakovich 8th with RCO on Decca is superb; Debussy Nocturnes Phillips splendid; he has done a raft of good stuff. I agree his VW cycle ain't great but he is still a formidable musician
For a really awful box set of the VW symphonies, listen to Gennady Rozhdestvensky conducting all 9 symphonies in live concerts with various choirs and soloist and The state symphony orchestra of USSR Ministry of culture. So bad its embarrassing.
Over a lifetime of collecting lps and then cds, I haven't ditched many because tastes alter over time and performances you originally wrote off you suddenly 'get'. But after years of trying to understand what G magazine's reviewers found in Haitink's Sea Symphony, I gave up and gifted it to our local library. Back in '71 a friend of mine got a summer job working as a sort of dogsbody for the LSO, which meant he got to sit in on rehearsals under both Previn and Boult. His comments on the styles of both were what you'd probably expect, Boult calm and rather under-stated, Previn always on show. For years, Previn's VW5 was a desert island disc for me, the pianissimo he achieves at the close of the last movement incredibly delicate. Returning to it, I find the recording rather constricted.
Ooh, foreign conductor, English orchestra, bad combination! Just listen to Bernstein’s Enigma variations, pretty average performance, then he decides to conduct a version of Nimrod that is slower than his version of Saint-Saens’s Tortoises!
@@DavesClassicalGuide YES it is! If you listen to just Nimrod, it's out of context. Listen to the whole piece, and Nimrod sounds EXACTLY right! That's one aspect of the genius that was Bernstein.
Sorry don't agree - his original Mahler RCO 9th and 3rd are splendid benchmark recordings (his live almost complete Mahler Christmas Day cycle amazingly good too) IMO. His Shostakovich RCO 8th & 15th wonderfully exciting. His Debussy and Ravel collections on Phillips excellent. I really don't get wholesale knocking of Haitink.
Nor do I. I have praised many of his recordings both over the years and in these videos. Like so many artists active in the 80s and 90s, he recorded far too much, and duplicated far too much, pointlessly.
@@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7 I don't think everything he does is bad, far from it. But I really don't connect with his Mahler, and I can't say why. I'm just not feeling it. Same goes for his Shostakovich. This video gave me a laugh because I have one Vaughn Williams boxset and, would you believe it, it's the Haitink one, (It was going cheap on Amazon) and I've never liked it. It's a horrible-sounding set regardless of the merits of the conductor.
@@BrainiacFingers I agree about the VW cycle - it's generally sloppy performance wise and poorly recorded; and it's fine if you don't personally connect interpretaively with what Haitink does in Mahler and Shostakovich (though given the universal critical consensus some of these performances have been given, it would be great to know what your exemplars are). It's just sweeping statements like 'he always seems to get it wrong' just don't add much to the discussion IMO. I also agree these videos are often very good for a laugh and entertainment but also I think supposed to be thought provoking.
Nice work- incredible to me that you can pick up a box of nine different 40min+ pieces and recall the nuances of each of their performances
Amazed that the world has forgotten Handley. Best V-W for me and excellent Bax cycle.
True, Handley's Bax cycle is amazing! The Tone Poems 1 & 2 are wonderful.
Did a great 'Job' and 'Tallis Fantasia', too.
Listening to the Boult/RVW box is like sitting down with your grandfather in front of the fireplace and listening to him tell you stories of wonder & amazement...Great Stuff 👍
Just listened to Sea Symphony from Boult - wonderous stories...
In my youth I had to listen to Mozart & Beethoven so much I could not bear it any more. I found my way back to classical music because of British composers, especially RVW.
David, thanks for persuading me to give RVW a fair hearing with your earlier videos on him. My only exposure to his symphonies previously had been Haitink's London Symphony which left me cold, then I read some of the looking at cows comments and noticed that recordings seemed to be limited to UK conductors and/or orchestras and wrote him off. One of your earlier videos and the cheap price persuaded me to buy the Slatkin box and I was blown away, particularly by symphonies 3 through 6. I had no idea that RVW wrote intense music like symphonies 4 and 6. Then your video of Job got me looking for a copy and I stumbled into a used 8 disc set of Boult for less than $20 that includes his stereo symphony cycle. It's still in the pile of Hurwitz induced recordings to get to.
So I'm not the only one who has a pile of "Hurwitz induced recordings"... Good to know.
@@jimyoung9262 I breathe a sigh of relief when he does a video and recommends recordings I already own.
I’m a bit partial to the Hurwitz’s version of the opening of the Sea Symphony. 😏
Be HOOOOOOLD...
It's MEEEEEEEEE
:CRASH:
For Boult Stereo you definitely want the Japanese 24 bit remaster box, which is sometimes available here for $40 or so. Much better sound.
I read a story once, and I don't know if it's apocryphal or not. At the final rehearsal for the world premiere of the 4th Symphony, At the end, Vaughn Williams reportedly said "Well gentlemen, if that is modern music you can have it"!
I heard that too. Was it of the 4th that RVW commented: "I don't know if I like it, but it's what I meant" ?
I don’t know if they count as a cycle but Ive really enjoyed Sir Mark Elder’s RVW symphonies. Looking forward to checking out your recommendations, haven’t lead me astray so far!
I have not been impressed by Elder in this music. Here's one of my ClassicsToday.com reviews, and if you're curious you can look up the others: www.classicstoday.com/review/so-so-rvw-3-from-elder-and-halle/?search=1
It’s so frustrating. I get all set to go find Slatkin and nothing is available for less than about $100. $250 in some places. Yet, Haitink is abundant.
I share your enthusiasm at the end that there are 8 different available box sets of RVW's symphonies, which I take to be a testament to the quality of his music and its staying power beyond the first half of the 20th century when most of it was composed.
Ralph Vaughn Williams is an incredibly underrated symphonist. Godzilla in the Shire #4 is my favorite, but 8, 9, 6, and 5 ain’t far behind. I actually have the 9th on Everest from Boult - it’s a fantastic performance but the LP is worth buying just for the somewhat surreal requiem from Sir Adrian. The complete Boult late cycle is the most sympathetic cycle. As you say, very nice colors and textures. Slatkin isn’t far behind and he does indeed do a great 4th and 6th.
I agree with you strongly on the Haitink box being highly disappointing - I love Haitink so very much, especially as a Shostakovich maestro, but I ended up pitching the box. For me, Previn is consistently exciting and the 3rd best choice for one-stop shopping. His 4th and 6th aren’t the angriest, but they’re still powerful. Russophiles should check out the Rozhdestvensky box which came up on a subthread above.
4th is my favorite too. I actually got to see a live performance in Denver conducted by Peter Oundjian. Cosmic.
I have the Hickox Chandos box. The items he didn't he didn't record were done instead by Sir Andrew Davis. So looks like they'd partially released what may be a final cycle in mixing these two.
I managed to find the Slatkin boxed set used at a local record shop. The previous owner must have worn all of the cologne because it spent a few days in the garage (and the box spent the better part of a year). Thankfully the performances were amazing.
My god, I've had the cologne experience too! It was a 2nd-hand copy of Thomson's cycle. Possibly owned by the same person?
One guy asks the other: did you hear the see symphony? No, I smelled it.
@@ThreadBomb That would make scents ;)
That really stinks
A hugely enjoyable and quite witty talk about music that I really love. I indeed recall the days when Boult and Previn were the only guys in town, VW set-wise, and I absolutely agree that both of those sets (along with Boult's 1950s mono recordings, now available complete and beautifully remastered in a Decca box) have more than stood the test of time. From time to time I've dipped into single cds from some of the other sets discussed here, but none of those quite efface memories of Boult and Previn.
I must confess that occasionally I've been tempted by the Haitink box, to the point where I've added it to my shopping cart. But each time, at the last moment, the Voice of Reason has always prevented me from pressing "Buy."
I appreciate Slatkin's interpretations, but the performances seem to have been recorded at a fairly low level; the orchestra sounds more distant, less present, than I would prefer. Or is that impression simply a result of some flaw in my stereo system... or, more likely, a buildup of ear wax?
It's definitely an issue with your system. Those recordings are not at all low-level or recessed. Also, I don't think the Boult Decca box is still available new as a physical product (I checked before doing the talk). It's been OP for quite a while and is only offered now as a download.
If it's the same recording environment as Slatkin's Elgar, I'd say the problem is the recording.
Enjoyed this Talk for the third go around. As an aside, Thompson's Bax sym cycle rules!
If I could ask for the perfect symphony cycle of any composer I would ask for a RVW one.
What are your thoughts on doing a comparison of the three extant cycles, as well as some individual readings, of the Malcolm Arnold symphonies? Or even a general survey of Arnold's orchestral music?
There isn't enough there to justify a discussion. I will talk about individual works, however.
Thanks for this entertaining and informative video! One quibble: I think you meant the Bryden Thomson set on Chandos had the flat dynamics, not the Vernon Handley. Handley with the RLPO has some of the very best dynamics - at least my set. The Thomson, by contrast, was recorded in a church, and those acoustics, while pleasant for live listeners, tends to negate any real dynamic contrasts - there's only so much the sound guys can do in such a space. The same thing plagues von Karajan's Schumann cycle on DG - venue of the recording.
No, I meant what I said, although perhaps I didn't say it clearly enough.
Great work here, David! Completely take your point about Boult's mono cycle, except that if you get Decca 473 2412 you do get the Everest Ninth along with the other eight. And damn, the best of them are very exciting - and they were all (apart from No. 9) supervised by VW - he was literally sitting at a table a few feet from the conductor's desk and took the whole process very seriously. I guess it may be because I got to know all these pieces from those Decca recordings, but I do still love them. I wonder if you're a bit kind about Bryden Thomson's set, though there are some nice things in there in spite of all. Haitink is a puzzle. I heard him give a live performance of No. 4 at the Festival Hall which was (honestly) electrifying. That was in about 1973 but 20 or so years later the fire seems to have gone out of him - a great disappointment. But I can't share any enthusiasm for Handley - the sound is, as you say, pretty horrible, but for me the interpretations have none of Boult's character or cumulative energy (Handley's set has a lot of followers here in the UK but I'm never been one of them - it all just sounds a bit routine to me). How right you are about Previn/LSO not quite standing the test of time, good as it is. By the way, his obscure EMI recording of the Fifth is with the Peabody Orchestra (which is much more exalted than most youth orchestras) and for some reason it's actually the one of his I like best - but that's by the way. As for the spoken superscriptions for Antarctica, VW liked them enough to have them included on Boult's mono recording - which VW supervised closely (and Boult would never have gone against his wishes anyway). But you get it spot on with Boult's stereo cycle, and I'm with you all the way on Slatkin too, I mean they are both superb in different ways. Is the VW set the best thing Slatkin's done on disc? I can't think of anything better. It's interesting what you say about Slatkin's 'London'. Apart from Boult, he's one of the very few conductors to take the Scherzo at the terrifying speed VW wanted (he told Boult it should be 'as quick as possible' and with Slatkin it is). Anyway, a really enjoyable survey and thanks for it.
I love the mono cycle too, warts and all, but I think we agree it's not for beginners...
Many thanks David, it is great and enlightening, to hear your enthusiasm and appreciation of the V W cycle. I grew up on the decca LP of Antarctica ; it was John Gielgud doing the quotes for Boult in between the movements. As a schoolboy 'the speaker' just seemed part of the score (it had originated from a film score, so narration seemed part of the experience). Ralph Richardson was the speaker on the Previn recording, which I thought was very disappointing because of the feeble organ entry in the Landscape movement, a great moment in the terrific Boult performance. Perhaps being an actor makes me more particular about the casting! But I've put aside nostalgia for Gielgud's dulcet tones now and listen more to the music. I have a very vivid memory of a live performance of the 6th Symphony under Constantin Silvestri. Maybe that's why it is the work that excites me most, with that strange last movement.
I remember Boult's mono recording of the Sixth on vinyl. It included Vaughan Williams thanking the musicians for their great efforts and noting particularly the quiet intensity they conveyed in the finale. He praised the fine work of all the gentlemen---"and the lady harpist."
Hi Dave. Another great video prompting me to look for a box set for my collection. I found both the EMI and Warner Boult box sets on Amazon. Is there any difference in sound quality between these two versions? I know the Warner version is the newer pressing. Was there any remastering done with it?
Thanks
Not that I can tell.
And what are your thoughts on Boult's complete EMI recordings box set of Vaughan Williams music which came out in 2013?
I request RVW's Ninth Symphony review - this is probably his most puzzling work which I just adore. Now I am listening to the mighty Finale and keep thinking Rautavaara must have been studying this work extensively.
I can think of no other piece of music which evokes the sadness of an old man on his death bed recalling his youth, quietly crying at the end, and then facing his transendance as the fourth movement does. I would draw out the last chord a bit, such that most reviewers would say Bad Taste and Maudlin. Don't care.
Haitink's VW 7th is phenomenal (including the sonics), but the rest fit your description. Slatkin captures the otherworldliness of 8 & 9 like no one else. Previn finds the most menace in 4 & 6.
Liked previn's 2nd. Actually had to hunt it down. Bought it used in Florida.
Love your faultless Adrian Boult impression - you would easily pass for an Englishman :) When I was a teenager I used to wash up glasses in my local pub - the Wheatsheaf at Kingsfold, near the Surrey/Sussex border in south-east England. RVW had collected many folk songs at that pub in the early years of the 20th century. He lived at Dorking, eight miles north of Kingsfold where I grew up.
RVW was related to Charles Darwin and to the Broadwood family (of piano fame).
There's a ninth box set you didn't mention here: 1980s USSR recordings by Rozhdestvensky. Fascinating interpretations.
Um, not really.
Have you heard any of the Martyn Brabbins recordings on Hyperion?
All of them.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I've only heard the "London" - which I've downloaded as a hi-rez FLAC - and it's similar to the Barbirolli recordings, which I've always liked and have on CD.
I'm so happy to learn that I unintentionally bought two good versions: the Antarctic Symphony by Previn by itself and the cycle by Boult. I say unintentionally because I know nothing about classical music except that it either enchants me or it doesn't.
Thank you, David, for a splendid review. I actually like soft endings. They can put the listener in a contemplative mood, as RVW's soft endings always do. What a great composer! After many years of enjoying the symphonies via Boult (the mono cycle) and Previn, I decided I needed to gain a new perspective on the composer, so I went for the Haitink. This was about 5 years ago. After a while, I began to notice that my enthusiasm RVW was beginning to fade. I was finding the symphonies less enthralling than before. Then I took a cue from your earlier review of the Sea Symphony, in which you spoke very favorably of Slatkin's cycle. Having recently added it to my collection I realize now why my love for RVW's music was beginning the fade. The problem wasn't RVW, it was Haitink's literalism. Slatkin's magnificent cycle has totally renewed my enjoyment of RVW's symphonies. Thanks again for plugging the Slatkin cycle.
The soft ending of the Passacaglia of No. 5, notably in the hands of Andre Previn, is one of the most moving endings to any symphony which I know. Previn himself said that he could be moved to tears by it. And I believe the clarinet solo is by that Prince of the instrument, Gervase de Peyer.
@@salt_cots Thanks for the reply. This soft ending was one of the first passages in RVW that caught my attention decades ago, and revealed to me just how magnificent is his music. The soft ending of No. 6 is another story: chilling rather than uplifting, and in keeping with the minatory qualities of that work. What a range of moods and idioms RVW as able to encompass!
Thank you! Look forward to your ‘Ideal RVW Cycle’ some day :)
Check out my "Ideal Wagner Operas" video.
I own the Previn and Slatkin sets, bought individually ages ago. I'm no expert, but always enjoy them. A British magazine did a survey on VW sets. The writer described Previns as "An amiable walkthrough."
Oy!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Before our time Copland casually dismissed RVW as a kind of provincial scribbler--my interpretation--with little future.
@@paulharmon557 Should we care?
@@DavesClassicalGuide I believe he lived to eat his words. Listening to a Virgin Classics budget #5 conducted by Sir Yehudi Menuhin. I'm a musical illiterate. Is it any good? I am enjoying it. He grew up British, but not considered a Brit conductor
@@paulharmon557 If you like it that's what matters. For what it's worth, it's a good performance.
Handley. Wonderful sea symphony. Beautiful, heartfelt. Now listening to London symphony. Used to not like this symphony. Now--i love it! Seems handley is more of a human humanistic warm charming endearing interpretation approach. Not just bluster bombast etc. Based just on these 2 recordings. Really wonderful. Sound quality is great!
Well, where do I turn in my Haitink set? :)) Even with the complete smackdown you gave it, I still found I liked the symphonies in that interpretation. They must be really good! :]
Oh yes. They survive Bernie. The orchestra knows them very well, after all. Give them some credit for salvaging the situation.
I don't think Haitink is that bad. I listened and compared a lot and I'm quite happy to keep Haitink boxset alongside the others. Even David keeps it (maybe as a doorstop only but that's another question). Handley is also very good (I agree that some pieces sound dated, Tallis Fantasia for example, I can't believe EMI did such a poor work back in the 70s)
Big G, if you enjoy Haitink's set then that's all that really matters. Keep enjoying!
Any lover of Vaughan Williams' symphonies should hear at least once him conducting No 4. When I first bought my copy I thought I would listen to the opening to see what the sound was like, I was so gripped I ended listening to the whole symphony despite being tired and hungry after work. I know the recording is 85 years old and VW was not a professional conductor. No other version captures the fury and intensity of the music in the same way, or the lonely desolation of the slow movement or the sardonic, galumphing humour of the scherzo.
Exactly. I've had two excellent copies of mint 78s of it, one of the GREAT relics of the shellac era. Likewise the rediscovered live performance of him conducting his Fifth.
Gosh! I was sorry to hear your assessment of the Haitink collection. For a while there I thought I really liked it. Now I know better.
I had high hopes for it too. Oh, well.
I think Leonard Slatkin is one of the most underrated conductors there are. Then there's the opposite: Gustavo Dudamel - YUCK
I had pretty much ignored Slatkin, but David's videos prompted me to buy this RVW cycle, his 4 disc set of Elgar symphonies, concertos and orchestral pieces, and his 6 disc set of the 3 major Tchaikovsky ballets. All fantastic, and bargain priced.
I agree with you, Mark. Some people tend to dismiss Slatkin as boring or 2nd rate, but that’s not my view at all. Obviously, not everything he ever recorded was brilliant, but there’s not a single conductor who meets that standard.
Agreed. I think that he excels in # 6 and # 2. His Pastoral seems slightly boring to me, without much mystery.
I would love to know DH’s opinion on Dudamel ...
Good orchestral timbre and sound but rather lacking in pace and feeling.
Have been listening to the Andrew Davis performances which are well played. However, they are dimly recorded. The Pastoral is especially bad with the sound disappearing in some places.
Am I right, or am I losing my hearing?
You are losing your hearing. They are very well recorded.
"a 'meaty pile' of sturm and drong" -- Dave, you can be hilarious! 😄
The early digital recordings of Vernon Handley is just like David says. However his analog recording of the 2nd is excellent. Demonstration calibre. Try the EMI LP !!
Off topic a bit but which RVW biography to go for ? Is Heffer any good ?
I haven't read them, but others are welcome to chime in if they have.
@@DavesClassicalGuide A fine work I've read is The Music of Ralph Vaughan Williams by the great Michael Kennedy. RVW designated him to do this work. As he assigned his bio to his widow.
Im new to this composer so i i wanted to start with per your advice the fourth. Your recommendation??? Thanks in advance
Watch the video! I did one on the Fourth. You can find it easily in the dedicated Vaughan Williams playlist.
Boy were you right on! Compared the SACD versions of the Hickox and the recently released Boult SACD... No comparison. Your description of the "blaah" factor in the Hickox performance was, in mind, exactly right.
7:35 - So true, so enjoyable to hear your arguments😅
The Slatkin version was my first exposure to the Vaughn Williams symphonies. I managed to get the whole boxed set for just $5 used. The version I have is the original 1993/94 one. I've always been bothered by the sound quality on this one. What's so distracting is that it sounds there was not enough resolution to capture the wide dynamic range of the recording. This is especially noticeable in the very quiet passages where you can hear digital artifacts covering the instruments and ambience. This definetly needed 24 bit remastering. I'm aware that Sony released a number of budget box sets of remastered RCA recordings in the mini lp style packaging around the 2010s, such as the Slatkin box you have in this video. However I remember some controversy over these box sets as it was pointed out that Sony applied a lot dynamic compression and overly boosted the volume on many of these remastings, while zapping the impactfulness and clarity out of them. I always wondered how that Vaughn Williams/Slatkin box turned out. The original version definetly needed a higher resolution mastering but not at expense of it's dynamics. Does this new box set do the recordings any justice?
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. They sound fine to me.
Hickox's cycle was completed by Sir Ansrew Davis for Chandos.
Well, that answers that and I guess it means there won't be another Davis cycle, thank goodness. Fine though it may be, one is enough,
@@DavesClassicalGuide I remember reading a review that echoed your comments, why another Andrew Davis VW 9/Job coupling. Andrew Manze, Martin Brabbyns and Mark Elder are part way through their cycles. In the UK, Classic FM has helped turned the dial back to tonal music and the BBC has followed suit. When I began to follow classical music, Pierre Boulez was appointed principal conductor of the BBC Symphony Orchestra, need I say more? He didn't conduct VW, Elgar, Moeran, Finzi, Bantock, Sir Malcolm Arnold, Sir Edmund Rubbra, Tippett, Benjamin Britten, William Walton or Sir Arnold Bax. So why did they hire him? But we did get the composer Boulez being conducted by the composer. No comment. By the way, you ought to try Malcolm Arnold symphonies and listen to his interview on the Naxos set. It is very moving.
@@tonysanderson4031 I have reviewed the Malcolm Arnold symphonies (including the Naxos set) on ClassicsToday.com and have been writing about them literally for decades.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Great!. I will check out the link.
@@DavesClassicalGuide One is usually enough for most conductors of most cycles - but there are sometimes justifiable and notable exceptions.
Ralph Richardson spoke the Superscriptions on RVW 7/Previn/LSO. Not John Gielgud. Though, he'd have been good too.
Same thing.
For me the most hilarious video. I just have one version of these symphonies, bought in the 80's and 90's - and it is Haitink - the worst !!! :) That time The Gramophone was my bible (no internet and international magazines are very expensive - have to choose just one - and I read the issues again and again while spend all my money with new CDs). Now I have to listen these works again with another conductor. That´s the problem with huge collections - some CDs are never listen again.
@@hectorberlioz1449 Thanks Berlioz. I did not know you lived to know V.W. Anyway, David's videos are funny.
@@duwir5959 I made a comment in one of his videos about it - he is American biased. Not as much as say Gramophone with the English artists...but it is true. But I like him a lot anyway.
@@hectorberlioz1449 and, to me, Haitinks Pastoral is the very best. I love almost his whole cycle. People indeed have different opinions, may times I don't agree with David, but more often I do (and I am glad Ormandy gets his deserved appreciation as does Haydn), and always enjoy his video's.
I'm looking to buy my first VW box. I have a singleton of the Pastoral with something else. I never cared much for Chandos' sound.
Dave, excuse me for interrupting your RV Williams critique, but I would like to interject by requesting you provide a review of another Williams, who deserves some attention: John Williams the film music composer. I am a big classical music nerd, much like you, but I find it hard to believe us classcial nerds would shun anything by John. His scores especially Star Wars really add drama to the movies and are great stand alone works. Can you suggest any noteworthy recordings worth the purchase?
Ok-Sorry you have done videos on John Williams. But deservably, most of his soundtracks are great to listen to as something you can fire up on your home stereo. Would you agree?
Hello, David! Off-topic but I wonder if you come across such a composer as Wojciech Kilar? It seems that his academic output is completely uknown outside Poland (except for Orawa) but he did write some worthy stuff. It would be an interesting theme for one of your repertoire videos, of course, if you find his music good enough for discussion. I know Antoni Wit did almost all of his major works.
Sure, I know Kilar's work. I'll give it some thought.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I have a similar off-topic question about Miloslav Kabeláč. There is no competition in symphonic sets, but his work deserves attention, right? You must enjoy his percussive language.
@@bolemirnoc604 Yes.
No mention of the Tuba Concerto by Previn? it's magnificent! Otherwise Boult rules again.
Slatkin's recordings of the Vaughan Williams symphonies was released in 1994. When he became the music director of my local orchestra, the NSO, in 1996, I expected he would play lots of Vaughn Williams. No such luck. During his 13 years as NSO music director, he programmed only one piece by Vaughn Williams (the fourth symphony). What a disappointment.
RVW is one of my favorite composers. I go to all the concerts of his music I can get to (I once went to San Francisco to see a performance of his opera "The Pilgrims Progress") and I've only been able to hear live performances of five his symphonies (although I have sung "A Sea Symphony" twice.)
I'll bet your throat is really sore. :)
I remember the ongoing cycles by Previn and Boult being released and compared. Previn was a breath of fresh air when he arrived in England and I am a huge fan. He was a big "celebrity" on British TV and he reminded me of Lenny. He reached out to audiences and educated them in an interesting, non-condescending way. His cycle probably did more for VW than anyone else (Ditto Walton). Still love it! As for Haitink - I haven't heard his cycle but strangely enough some of my LPO friends who played in the sessions rate it very highly. They admired Haitink's approach. Funny old world, eh?
Musicians are usually the worst judges of their own work. That's why God invented critics
@@DavesClassicalGuide No such thing as god. Sorry to disappoint you. :)
@@bannan61 You apparently haven't watched many of his videos.
@@Don-md6wn Exactly!
A video about choral symphonies might be interesting. RVW, Berlioz, Holst, Beethoven, Shostakovich, Mahler, Sibelius.
Boult is no. 1 in my book. I also like very much the earlier DECCA/LONDON recordings. Please note that Barbirolli did a magnificent 2nd Symphony, a mesmeric 5th and a divine 8th. The latter Symphony Vaughan Williams dedicated to Glorious John
Yes, but his recording of the 8th is nothing special.
I too began my post childhood adult listening (post childhood full of amazement with Beethoven and Stravinsky) with RVWs London and Pastorale - Boult of course. 50 plus years later Dave I am thrillled over the moon to learn of these new recordings. Ever many thanks!! p.s. sad to hear that Haitink is awful - could’ve been ignorance of youth but my favorite Planets was Haitink and LSO. And a dear pal of mine, tympani player, played under Haitink a few times, and has very very high regard for the way he worked and the results (I don’t recall what they played).
Thank you. Haitnk's Planets was with the LPO, and it was gorgeous.
@@DavesClassicalGuide You Rock Dave - Thank you. It’s soo great to know that you’re soo on board with RVW!! Glad you agree about that Haitink Planets Lp.
Great video clip, Dave. One minor carp, though. The speaker in Previn's recording of the 7th Symphony (Sinfonia Antarctica) is Sir Ralph Richardson, NOT Sir John Gielgud.
Is there a difference?
@@DavesClassicalGuide LOL
But what about Havergal Brian?
What about him?
Its a sobering thought but had RVW not survived wartime service in WW1 (he was an artilleryman in the last year of the war) we would just have the Sea Symphony and the "draft" version of the London Symphony.
Interesting. I knew he had been a medic but didn't know about his artillery service.
@@ThreadBomb Yes, he was commissioned into the Royal Artillery in 1917 as a first lieutenant. He later received a War Pension for loss of hearing which was very common amongst artillerymen.
I too love he RVW 3. How do you not.
Mr. Hurwitz, again many thanks for your superb review.
I have to mention that I disagree on one point: The best version of Symphony No.2 (London Symphony) is the original 1913 version from Mr. Hickox (god bless him). I think it is much better than the reworked versions. Just listened to Boults version, yes Boult is marvelous but No.2 is owned by Hickox. The 1913 version makes much more sense IMO.
The Hickox is dull performance, the work sounds infinitely better in its revised version, and the sonics are surprisingly mediocre for Chandos. Sorry, but I think you're way off base here. Here's my original review: www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6041/?search=1. Of course, to each his own...
Your English accent is great! You could have been a stand-in for Hitchcock!
Thanks for this survey Dave! I have to say I much prefer Vaughan William's symphonies to Elgar's. In fact, the only British symphonists who come close in my opinion are Malcolm Arnold and George Lloyd (both of whom you have rightly championed but sadly remain far too little known). The only thing I might disagree with is that not all of Hickox's Vaughan William Symphonies were terrible (his 4th is one of the best IMO and I don't dislike his 3rd to the same degree that you do).
I agree with you regarding the 4th (see a link to my CT.com review below), but that 3rd! No way. It's just horrible, as are most of his other versions of the symphonies--so I was speaking in general. www.classicstoday.com/review/review-8007/?search=1
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hickox to his credit did a great Arnold #5 (one of the best British symphonies in my view), but there's nothing much to compare it against.
I know this is "off the wall," but would you please give a talk on Kingsway Hall? So many great performances were captured there in stunning, natural sound. I became enlightened about this place by listening to Klemperer recordings. Thanks.
I am not qualified to talk about it. Sorry.
It was demolished. Good Wikipedia article about it. Every time I am in Holborn I dream of bumping into Klemperer on his way to a recording session with the Philharmonia.
I bought the Haitink. It was a few years ago. I'm sorry. I'll get the Boult and the Slatkin . I promise.
Thank you, Dave. I’m a huge RVW fan. I largely agree with your thoughts, though I admit that I do like some movements from the Haitink cycle, especially the last movement of the 9th, where Haitink’s spaciousness fits the remote, cosmic, mysteriously ethereal nature of the music. I agree that Slatkin London is too fast and that Previn’s is THE best. I also love Boult 2 and Davis. I don’t understand why Davis’s cycle is so neglected-it’s really excellent. I completely agree about the sound of the Thomson cycle, too. It really gets in the way of many good interpretations, though his 9th is too fast. Slatkin’s really does have the best orchestral playing and mostly the best interpretations, though there are a few movements that I prefer elsewhere. What do you think of Manze’s cycle? It is finished now. I noticed that you didn’t include it. As you say, it’s difficult for one interpreter to excell throughout, and I find his set to be variable, but not without some insights.
Manze isn't in a box, and it's very hit and miss. Check out my reviews of some of the individual titles on ClassicsToday.com.
Previn took VW to American audiences but he played some of these works to an often bored audience.. It's a truth you have to have English blood in your veins to really love and understand this music, and the same is true of Elgar. Slatkin's performances are ideal for an American audience, it's upfront and expect a picture of London that's more like Manhattan. It's VW as realised from across the pond but well played for all that. Boult's poorly recorded London 1950's is great as is Barbirolli's nostalgic view. Add in Previn's pastoral and 5th and the rest with Boults later set and you have the ideal recordings. Best avoid box sets with one conductor.
@@geoffharris9396"It's a truth you have to have English blood in your veins to really love and understand this music." What a load of bollocks. Hurwitz himself I'm guessing doesn't have 'English blood' in his veins and he likes it. This is the sort of snotty attitude that alienates everyone from the music.
@@bencobley4234 Yeah, Hurwitz likes it but he doesn't love it, and that's the point I was trying to make.. As an example Hurwitz says Elgar's ''March of the Mogul Emperors '' is his greatest work ! Really ? Better than the symphonies and concertos ?? Now that really is Bollocks ! And any reviewer (our Dave again) who thinks Arthur Sullivan is Britain's greatest composer cannot be taken seriously when it comes to British music.
Curse you! I was always happy enough with my Haitink box but I just gave the 5th a listen and you're dead right it lacks on performance and sound quality. My only other copies of the 5th are Previn and Andrew Manze with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic - that's a nice sound, a little restrained in the performance but better than Haitink (I appreciate that's not a full set, at least yet).
The quiet final 3 minutes of Andre Previn's No.5 are amazing. The intensity of the string playing is unmatched in rival versions, I think. Previn himself said that final passage used to bring him to tears.
What about the Melodiya Cycle? You missed it out. I love it, it’s really off the wall. I’d love to know what you think of the Russian approach to such an English composer. Great video otherwise 🎶❤️
That was already discussed extensively in the comments. I have it, and I didn't "miss it out."
Stop beating around the bush. Come on man, tell us how you really feel! Should I get the Haitink set or should I skip it?
It's your nickel.
I always (kind of) hold my breath during your reviews, hoping that you will assign good marks to the version I happen to own. I'm happy to say that I apparently chose well with this one. Slatkin was the director of our orchestra (Detroit) for several years, so I'm pleased when I hear good things about him.
Oh, I forgot to mention that I also own the Haitink version, but I promise not to listen to it anymore. 😇
I absolutely love the Slatkin/Philharmonia cycle...amazing performances and the right kind of energy...I have to differ with you about the first movement of the London Symphony, though! I like it the way Slatkin keeps it moving along...feels in keeping with the restlessness of a large city...great video, man! 👍
Great British accent though you sound a bit more like Sir Thomas than Sir Adrian.
Same difference, I guess!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I do like your 'faux' English! Sir Thomas once said "You always know when Sir Adrian is going to conduct; you can smell the Horlicks from his dressing room!"
Another Beecham tale. He hated Boult and recorded in his dairy... 'Meeting at the BBC with Boult. He was late and staggered in reeking of cocoa'.
I think the best cycle should go as last one, not the first in the adventure of discovering this pieces ...don’t you think Dave?
Huh?
@@DavesClassicalGuide You mentioned that you recommend to start your adventure with the cycle from the best, the most stable one. I think the opposite, it should end there (I also consider Slatkin's cycle to be the best)
@@damiangruszczynski7451 I'm still not sure I understand your point. Never mind. It must be me.
@@damiangruszczynski7451 If you start your adventure from poor recordings, that may very well end your adventure. Like how I listened to the Haitink recording of RVW's London Symphony 15-20 years ago and decided RVW bored me. Fortunately I watched David's videos on RVW and the Slatkin cycle was cheap and I now have another composer and bunch of music to enjoy.
@@Don-md6wn I didn’t say „from the poor one” but „not from the best one” ;-) That’s my point of view !
SPOT ON with the top two cycles. I have those exact ones. I also paired them with their versions of Holst-The Planets. Both VW and Holst were lifelong friends and classmates who, if I am correct, studied under Maurice Ravel. The styles of the two friends and classmates seem to feed off each other. Plus Adrian Boult knew both WV and Holst. So it's an interesting pairing I came up with there.
Also spot on with Slatkin's version of the London Symphony, although played very well. The first movement felt like London in rush hour, with people rushing to and from work, not stopping to enjoy the beauty of London. The rest of the symphony wasn't too bad. There was still that English spirit that came through in the symphony.
I just gave away my Haitink's box. You are indeed influential.😂
You won't miss it.
Hmm... Comments about the critics' reviews of Haitink might apply also to Celibidache in Bruckner - but he is allowed to get away with it!
But I love this: I always thought Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 4 was "Godzilla eats Tokyo", if Tokyo were situated in the English countryside.
If only one of my best classical music loving friends were still alive, he would have eaten up your discussion of RVW symphonies! He was a member of the Vaughan Williams Society and really introduced me to the composer, though I already had a recording of one work, Ninth Symphony with Boult on Everest you discussed. Otherwise for me it’s Andrew Davis for 1, 2, 5, 6 and 9; Slatkin for 3, 4, 8 (preceded by the appropriate Fanfare for Glorious John), and 9 again; Boult for 7 along with the fun suite from the Wasps; and Previn (RCA) for 5 again with the wonderful Tuba Concerto. I’ll have to confess that I also have Haitink’s 1 and Hickox’s “original” 2, but agree with you on their merits or lack thereof!
I have the original 2 cos I am interested in the process but yep it isn't bustling to get played and certainly not worth it for non-obsessives. However I did like Hickox's 5 and that's a possible bolt on for those of us who get carried away.
Incidentally I also think Hickox sounded a lot happier in his RVW opera sets.
It would be nice if you once said "What I consider the best...whatever" and not feel that you are so categorically right. Tastes, do differ you know...
Yes, but I don't care. And besides, I am categorically right. Always. Without exception.
Just relax Robert. After all it is funny - especially if you think David is wrong
But Dave is always right. You're asking him to water down the truth.
@@jimyoung9262 Dave calls them as he sees them. Quite right. And some of us do our Walter Brennan Red River impression "You're wrong Mr Hurwitz". But hey it's his channel.
You are so right about English critics. I noticed their bias decades ago when there were artists that could not do wrong, and others that could not do right.
I was very dissapointed in the Haitink cycle. I have & love the Boult, Previn & Slatkin sets. Previn’s Antartica is the best, bar none!
David-- Thanks for this edition. First it made me remember that I have #9 with Boult on Everest in my LP library and am listening to it now. Second, I agree that Slatkin's set is the most satisfying. I have complete sets from Boult #2, Haitink, Previn, Thomson, and Handley. Previn's suffers from its recording quality, although I think the London Symphony sounds better on my LP than on the CD. I think Previn's RCA releases recorded for RCA by Decca are all disappointing considering how good Decca's engineers were. Slatkin doesn't get as much credit as he should. He does a great job on VW, Copland, Barber, and others. By the way, I still like his Dad's Rhapsody in Blue best.
Have to disagree with you about the Slatkin. I bought this set many years ago, sampled a few tracks, put it aside and haven't touched it since. Intrigued by your remarks I just got the set out, played the Toccata of the 8th and realized why I hated it so much. For one, the dynamics are just too great. Set the volume for the climaxes and much of the rest is just background waffle with most of the detail missing. The percussion also sounds like a couple of kids got into the pots and pans. Compare this with Previn's punchy version, where not a detail is missed (despite the deteriorated sound). Best compromise is almost certainly Kees Bakel on Naxos, though this is not from a boxed set. Also disagree about Previn's 9th, which to me is definitive. Just goes to show, one man's hearty meal is another man's steaming pile of....well, we won't go there.
Indeed we won't.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Lol
It's about time a non-British orchestra had a crack at these symphonies on record. Re. your point about British critics gushing over Haitink, it's notable how sniffy they are about Slatkin. Maybe because he was American rather than European and was a bit abrasive at times?
Probably.
Not on record - but available on UA-cam right now - are the downloads from radio transmissions of American orchestras taking on VW symphonies. For example, Ormandy/Philadelphia and the Pastoral symphony or especially, given the recommendation here, symphony no. 5 with Slatkin and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Makes an interesting comparison for my favourite VW symphony.
Of course I have the Haitink! LOL
I have it, as well plus loads others. I find it almost impossible to reconcile what David says about Haitink with the glowing reviews in the English press Radio 3 Building a Library (VW4) and Gramophone. I have been listening for 50 years and I don't get it.
Is there actually an exciting Bernard Haitink record?
Many, actually.
His Shostakovich 8th with RCO on Decca is superb; Debussy Nocturnes Phillips splendid; he has done a raft of good stuff. I agree his VW cycle ain't great but he is still a formidable musician
His Shostakovich is all very exciting. His 8th is arguably the best out there.
His Debussy La Mer/Images album is FANTASTIC
@@jimyoung9262 He recorded some fine Ravel, too. And his Mahler 'Resurrection' symphony (Philips, Concertgebouw) is an absolute tour de force.
For a really awful box set of the VW symphonies, listen to Gennady Rozhdestvensky conducting all 9 symphonies in live concerts with various choirs and soloist and The state symphony orchestra of USSR Ministry of culture. So bad its embarrassing.
And ... the Slatkin cycle has disappeared again.
The amazing thing about Vaughan-Williams is who didn't record him. Not Bernstein, Ormandy, Szell, Jarvi, Blomstedt, Mackerras...
Bernstein and Ormandy most certainly did record him. So did Mackerras.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you for the clarification.
Over a lifetime of collecting lps and then cds, I haven't ditched many because tastes alter over time and performances you originally wrote off you suddenly 'get'. But after years of trying to understand what G magazine's reviewers found in Haitink's Sea Symphony, I gave up and gifted it to our local library.
Back in '71 a friend of mine got a summer job working as a sort of dogsbody for the LSO, which meant he got to sit in on rehearsals under both Previn and Boult. His comments on the styles of both were what you'd probably expect, Boult calm and rather under-stated, Previn always on show.
For years, Previn's VW5 was a desert island disc for me, the pianissimo he achieves at the close of the last movement incredibly delicate. Returning to it, I find the recording rather constricted.
Hickox did 1 to 6 plus 8. Andrew Dsvies very kindly did 7 and 9 and Job.
Well, it's not in a box and the Hickox titles are awful...
Ooh, foreign conductor, English orchestra, bad combination!
Just listen to Bernstein’s Enigma variations, pretty average performance, then he decides to conduct a version of Nimrod that is slower than his version of Saint-Saens’s Tortoises!
Actually it's a very good performance.
@@DavesClassicalGuide YES it is! If you listen to just Nimrod, it's out of context. Listen to the whole piece, and Nimrod sounds EXACTLY right! That's one aspect of the genius that was Bernstein.
Your comments on the Haitink box reflect beautifully my feelings about the conductor's recordings generally.
Lol. Tell you what - you leave Richardson, Fiennes and Vaughan Williams alone and we won't moan too much about say Colin Powell or Denzel Washington.
I'm pretty sure Ralph Richardson pronounced his name "ralf" as opposed to "rayf".
Eww and I thought Dick van Dyke's English accent was bad 🤣
Mine is perfect.
Yep. Slatkin is my top pick. Nobody believes that it's good.
Yes, Slatkin is up there. Nice clear crisp exact sound.
You hit the nail on Haitink's. I normally adore his work, but his Vaughan Williams set is boring and poorly recorded - flat sound.
Mate, can you say something in Australian accent next time?
I can try...
@@DavesClassicalGuide If you do a talk on Grainger, perhaps...
@@DavesClassicalGuide Don't try, you'll muff it. I'm Australian and even I wouldn't attempt an "Australian" accent! :)
You're right about Haitink's Vaughn Williams. But I also feel that way about his Mahler and Shostakovich. He always seems to get it wrong, IMO.
Sorry don't agree - his original Mahler RCO 9th and 3rd are splendid benchmark recordings (his live almost complete Mahler Christmas Day cycle amazingly good too) IMO. His Shostakovich RCO 8th & 15th wonderfully exciting. His Debussy and Ravel collections on Phillips excellent. I really don't get wholesale knocking of Haitink.
Nor do I. I have praised many of his recordings both over the years and in these videos. Like so many artists active in the 80s and 90s, he recorded far too much, and duplicated far too much, pointlessly.
@@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7 He did an amazing Shostakovich 12 too, very un-Haitink like, the first movement absolutely on fire.
@@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7 I don't think everything he does is bad, far from it. But I really don't connect with his Mahler, and I can't say why. I'm just not feeling it. Same goes for his Shostakovich. This video gave me a laugh because I have one Vaughn Williams boxset and, would you believe it, it's the Haitink one, (It was going cheap on Amazon) and I've never liked it. It's a horrible-sounding set regardless of the merits of the conductor.
@@BrainiacFingers I agree about the VW cycle - it's generally sloppy performance wise and poorly recorded; and it's fine if you don't personally connect interpretaively with what Haitink does in Mahler and Shostakovich (though given the universal critical consensus some of these performances have been given, it would be great to know what your exemplars are). It's just sweeping statements like 'he always seems to get it wrong' just don't add much to the discussion IMO. I also agree these videos are often very good for a laugh and entertainment but also I think supposed to be thought provoking.