* NOTES SINCE PUBLICATION * I made the comment that smart meters are connected to the Internet. But in reality, smart meters send readings to the energy supplier via a secure, dedicated network.
I find your lack of cynicism to be astounding at least you recognise the danger of having all your data being controlled by one company especially if it all goes back to the UN since they look to China as the model to follow! I mean what could possibly go wrong with that. 😢
Your point here is a general one - almost every electronic device today has some element of Chinese manufacturing in it. I’m not sure you would be able to disconnect yourself from the world enough to avoid that? You’ve got to trust someone in the end and my video makes the point that reputation is the key.
@@waynes6009who controls your actual energy supply? One company right? The DNO is responsible for actually getting power to your home so whats the difference if your data is also controlled via one company (DCC)? And what does the UN have to do with anything here?
Fantastic vid Gary and great to see someone finally talking about the security issue of battery systems! Well done! I recently walked away from an install because it was clear the manufacturer / supplier didn't have a clue on security. I fear it will only be a matter of time before state actors seek to implement massive widespread crippling disruption. In the meantime my search goes on for a secure offgrid battery solution that doesn't permit third party control or require internet connectivity.
Two observations. 1)before smart meters there were Economy 7 & Economy 10. Back in the 1990's I was working for an energy supplier who offered day, night and weekend day tariffs. 2) smart meters will still need to be "read" onsite periodically to check for signs of tampering.
I expect inverters in the future to implement some sort of role based access control that will let you decide who can see what. For instance you can grant a 3rd party provider access to only your battery charge status but not to other configurations/settings. This would be similar to what already happens in the phones: when you install an app, the app tells you what permissions it requires and you can decide which ones to grant.
There are pro’s and con’s with everything and you have to make as best an informed decision as you can do. One point you missed out is the need for LOCAL control of your appliance. Its all very well having a remote control option but you absolutely must have direct local control as well as otherwise you could be looking at an expensive but useless device - whether its as simple as your internet connection goes down, the manufacturer going out of business or just the manufacturer decides to withdraw an API - Jaguar Land Rover I think recently did this resulting in their vehicles no longer being able to be eligble for the Octopus Intelligent Go tariff, and there’s a garage door manufacturer in the US that locked down remote control so you could only remotely operate your garage door via their app - which is now stuffed with adverts. Direct local control as well as cloud remote is therefore a must-have in my view (and that of many smart home experts as well)
My main concern is what happens if you supplier goes bust and shuts down their servers. How many systems will auto shutdown if they can't connect to the vendors servers? I'm aware some can operate temporarily offline, but not permanently. One UK based vendor has recently laid off staff and seeking further funding. We see it time and time again where "internet connected" devices become expensive paperweights. Early in 2022 200 customers in Edinburgh were disconnected from the grid due to a software "glitch" at their supplier, which was able to remotely disconnect through the smart meter.
That's a very important point - thanks for raising. What I would hope is that while the managing entity (the product/service provider) no longer has value, the underlying customer base may still have a lot of value, and therefore should be attractive for another entity to buy at a knockdown price. The problem comes if those customers are not paying any on-going fees to the original entity (as if often the case in the solar and battery market today) - then, there is no incentive for a new entity to pick up those customers, potentially... As for the software glitch you describe, that's pretty bad form - and I hope a thorough investigation was carried out to find out exactly what happened.
The issue of remotely controlling your meter, not just remotely reading it, is the problem; including being able to remotely shut down your supply for whatever reason (including software glitches).
100% agree on this, currently I have this issue with my EV charger where I can no longer control it via the supplied app and there are no local controls. When I chose solar I picked an inverter which has local controls as well as remote, a small screen and buttons on the front so if the app service stops working it will still be controllable. These devices are supposed to last 10 years +, the companies that make them may well not.
Power can be cut off by the grid/area manager on an area basis. Details on the sequence of power cuts are available. Smart meters and chargers will give the facility to select the targets for shut down. Do all ev chargers have the capacity to be shut down remotely?. With so many actors I am not clear who could control what and when. I don't want to wait for an event to find out.
Its not just if the supplier goes bust - what if they are the subject of a hostile takeover, and then just shutdown the system and offer you their own product.
Thanks your video covers many questions but also misses a few. I feel there are risks with business going bankrupt or being taken over by other companies with different ideas. There is a risk that a business may change operating model to one of paid subscription for instance and blackmailing customers into paid services. There are many instances of this change of policy across the technology field. I also think there is a risk to a country that starts to have a percentage of solar home generation - this is the forcing a black restart by shutting down home systems across a country. This is too complex to detail here but it could happen.
The problem with privacy policies is that they are policies and can be changed without notice at anytime. Hell, they could even change them back too. They are worthless to the end user. It wouldn’t be worth reading that garbage.
That’s true but a reputable company is unlikely to do that. And even if companies do make changes to their policies, they still have to abide by data privacy legislation like GDPR, which dictate heavily what those policies must cover 👍🏻
That’s true and the bait and switch has cost some Californians millions. Investing in solar and then have the state or government change the rules after. Low down and dirty pool that scares people away from investing in this. Regulations and laws are changing but this darth Vader “I am altering our deal pray I don’t alter it further” has to stop so people will feel safe investing in solar for the long run.
Good video. Hopefully as we nove to more efficient usage, storage and local production, we will all be armed with our data usage over the years to make informed decisions. People still have a fear of the smart meter lying or sending misinformation. Which is laughable when you think how it used to be recorded.
Hi Gary, you videos are concise, clear and very informative on this complex subject matter. Your in depth knowledge and presentation style are commendable indeed! I would like you insight on the the new Sunsaver Plus Solar subscription as i am interested as such. Will you do a video on this potentially growing area in the market please? I look forward to your comments
Hi James - that's such great feedback! Thank you! :-) Ok, I don't know much about this company, but it's always worth searching for unbiased opinion on social media sites like this one: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466/search/?q=sunsave I like your idea around me doing a video on these companies - will add to the list...!
@@GaryDoesSolar I will probably go down this route and I would like to share my experiences maybe with you and I welcome a collaboration/interview some time in the future if that is possible?
@@smartjim Ok, sounds like a plan. I can't promise I'd make a video on the topic, but it does feel like one I should cover at some point, and should I do that, I'd love to have your feedback on the service, should you make a decision to go with them 👍 I don't see any reason why that should not be achieved in an interview format with yourself.
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks Gary, in fact I have signed up for this service and now working on the dates of installation hopefully early May is looking like. I will keep you posted. Can I contact you via the Patreon service with updates?
In my recent video I compared the heating and solar industries. In it I said that Solar inverters were excellent for data acquisition and historical storage, but terrible with control options (Solaredge for instance limits the best battery options to installers). Conversely the heating industry gives the end user a lot of control over the heating system but it’s terrible with data acquisition. I’ve made two videos on redressing the balance for my heat pump already. There’s going to be a third video, I’ve been busy!
Thanks Anthony, and this is a topic I hope to be looking into in detail later this year :-) For anyone who doesn't already follow Anthony's channel, here is a link to the first part of his current series on heat pumps, to get you started: ua-cam.com/video/EQMVOz6s2kk/v-deo.html
Great video. It does seem to heavily centre around trust, but the features do seem to be worth the small risk at present. I will say that for my own solar system the physical hardware was connected to a separate vlan on the network so East-West communications are blocked and only the required WAN destinations are permitted. To be fair that should apply to all IoT devices people install these days. It’s sad, but I would bet that the majority of home networks lack the sophistication to have any real security at all! These devices are connecting to your network, do you know what they are capable of doing… I don’t… I do know it is trivial to gain full access to your network if they wanted to.
Surely the companies will want to get paid for all these facilities and add it to the monthly bills,also as in Australia where they are now starting to CHARGE for feedback to the grid at peak supply of feed in, and people are unable to use it themselves at that time and it has to go into the grid, this sun dependent action is universal to all those with panels.
It's interesting to see how tariff rates (including export rates) will change over time with ever-increasing solar and wind capacities. The opportunity for consumers will be to have a large enough battery to store solar and export back when the grid needs it most...
Interesting video and veiw point and by and large I agree with your sentiment. However there are times when even reputable companies screw up even those that have or had ISO 27001 off the top of my head I can think of a company outside of Solar arena like VW and deisel gate that was a 'firmware overide' when a testing scenario was detected. Whats to stop a company fudging the figures to prove their batteries for example are better than others if you just come to rely on 'cloud based evidence' supplied by that company? Sorry I've been quite cynical since getting burned a couple of times with cloud based evidence. Moreover, over the air updates or any updates to firmware/ software that are needed I tend to lag behind and only allow them once other ginea pigs have shown there are no downsides or rather dangerous bugs
Thanks Gary for opening up this subject. My plant dashboard is hosted by the system supplier (SunSynk) and the settings are locked down by the installer - I am a bit concerned about this situation. I know the installer can allow me to login and change settings, not that I need to do this on a daily basis. My data is transmitted to Octopus via the smart meter so I don't think if I disconnected the inverter from the internet I will interrupt the supply or lose control. On the inverter there is a control panel so I can see the status of the system. However, maybe the web dashboard would not work. Any thoughts/comments welcome! 😁
You're most welcome. Now, I don't know too much about Sunsynk, but I do hate it when suppliers lock down their systems in this way (like we consumers can't be trusted!) Worth asking them to unlock it - I'm sure they'd consider such a request if you could demonstrate that you know what you're doing and only wish to make changes to certain settings etc.
@@GaryDoesSolar @EngineerLewis Whether manufacturers/installers/suppliers locked down their inverters was one of the key factors I considered when looking at systems last year. I have a Loxone home automation system and it was a key requirement that I could connect to and control my solar and battery system through that system locally. I chose Sunsynk as they had by far the most controllable inverter system and six months on I would make the same choice again. Some Sunsynk installers will restrict customers access but I have to commend Sunsynk as, if requested by the customer, they will remove any restrictions and provide full control to the customer and this does not affect the inverter warranty.
I am sold on smart meters for obtaining the cost savings for my electric car and solar panels but. The smart meter I had fitted does not work because it relies on a mobile phone system signal to transmit it information my area has a very week to nonexistent signal so the meter only records total input KWH I have fibre broadband but smart meters can’t connect to that. I am told Do you know of any solutions to this problem. ?
So, I kind of get it that there are very good reasons to keep smart meter traffic well away from the Internet (by using private networks) but one of the great things about the Internet is that it's resilient for applications - data can get from A to B by any number of routes if it wants, so why not allow those smart meters that could not otherwise connect to use the Internet? For example, I know that Octopus is looking at their Octopus Mini product as a way of retrieving 30-minute readings in areas of poor smart meter connectivity...
The only way to avoid your data getting in the wrong hands or going to marketing companies etc is to leave society and go live in a cave or something! 😂 You're channel and content is great btw Gary. I have found your videos extremely helpful and well presented! Btw, I don't know if your are aware but you're audio keeps clipping when your start talking? I've noticed it in a lot of your videos I don't know if anyone else has?
Thanks Phil. for your kind words about my channel :-) Now, I do clip out my breathing etc. and this may be the source of the problem. It depends which application or device you are using. I've never experienced issues with a desktop PC, for example, although it happens from time to time (not just my videos) on my Fire TV stick.
I looked into software security for my masters in software engineering. The biggest threat for solar and meters is a denial of service attack. Its not a question of if but when. Also a targeted attack could, depending on the battery type, cause a fire buy over charging the batteries. I agree that the collected data is not that sensitive and a solar system could disguise your trye usage. It's the remote nature of access that is the threat. And abuse of that by government, law enforcement or bad actor. I plan to disconnect my inverter from the web and creat my own server that it talks too. But this is not a trivial task. There needs to be a standard that all systems adhere to that limits access and allows owners to self host the software.
I’ve got a Solis system and Dyness batteries. As soon as I was happy it was working well, the Wi-Fi dongle was unplugged. It now carries on running quite happily by itself. There might be updates, but if it’s happy why take the risk updating? There’s no guarantee the update would be better for me.
I did the same, though mainly because the Solis app is pretty mediocre. I actually raised a support request to have the inverter software updated and they were happy to agree a day I'd temporarily plug the WiFi dongle back in. These days my inverter monitoring and control is all done via a Waveshare RS485 to RJ45 Ethernet Converter that plugs into the network switch so Home Assistant can see and command it. Working very well for over a year.
Appalling behaviour, and I would like to think that such practices would become common knowledge on social media forums. They would then lose customers…
I find myself in the ‘allow’ camp. Tesla controls my battery management and Octopus controls and devises the charging plan for my EV. I don’t see it as any different from using my phone where the functions of the various apps are managed a variety of third parties.
My system is accessed by 4 companies. Tesla for the Powerwall 2, Solar Edge for the inverters/panal optimisers, MyEnergy for the Zappi/Harvey and hub and lastly, the installer Joju. Octopus have the Smart Meter access that the others do not, but they have no access or control over the system. I am on the Flux tariff at present. It works for me for the most part, however, during the coldest days when my heating (I am all electric), was working harder, I could not charge the Powerwall sufficiently in the 3 hours of cheap energy between 2 to 5 to cover house use during the rest of the day. Tesla restrict charging to 1.8k from the mains, and that will not give anywhere near a full charge :-(. That has only affected late December and January due to the very short days. Now Solar is ramping up, I only charge from the mains on very bad days, and can make do with that 3 hour window for the most part. It will give me 19 kWh into the car on the cheap rate, which is the main thing :-). Reality is, if you want to be paid for your surplus generation, you have to trust somebody. But research is wise!
A natural gas bottle in the corner for winter emergency, with a selfplug-in V2G EV, and rooftop PV, then off grid in the suburbs sounds perfect all year. 😮😊😊😊😊😊 Hahaha 👍 Hahaha.
I lost a couple of years of data when Solis migrated to their new platform. It's not cost me anything except the ability to say when it's paid for itself, so it's just an annoyance. A much bigger worry is that same device has access to my wifi and is reporting to servers in China. I trust my energy provider and the UK DCC a lot more than anything in China. I'm no cybersecurity expert, but I could easily imagine a Solis employee selling access to my wifi to a hacker, or being forced to hand it over to the Chinese Gov.
One reason my WiFi is segregated into virtual networks and untrusted devices can only call out to the internet and not to other devices on my network (trusted devices can connect to untrusted though). And why I went with Victron rather than a Chinese inverter brand.
Missed one. The installer of your systems usually sets themselves up as the "system admin". I find this more worrying, as they could manipulate your system to create a reason for a callout, as you are more likely to call the installer first... 🤔
Most worrying is they go bust or forget your details when you then need to do an update or some other admin. Or they try to charge you some random fee to administer it. I don't agree at all with installers holding the keys. You've bought a device, you should get the keys.
The amount of trust people place in government and energy companies astounds me.........just because they keep offering juicy bait to do so. You keep moving further into their hands if you so wish, while I'll continue to move further off-grid, and increase self sufficiency. 😀
Why not do both? I have solar and batteries, but Octopus offer me 7.5p import and 15p export. So I charge overnight on cheap rate and export everything. If they ever 'go rogue' then I can revert to self consumption. Win/win. BTW do you have a grid connection? Placing a lot of trust your DNO doesn't just decide to turn off your supply 😜
@@cingramuk because I have no desire to have a smart meter, and therefore I am non compliant, I cannot access those rates. Hence moving further off-grid, is my preferred solution.
Hi Gary Since I had new smart meters installed at the end of January I was getting daily readings from my provider's website. BUT on 26 February this stopped. I am away from home and want to collect daily readings over a few weeks to establish a reasonable daily average to sort out a long-standing dispute over my bill since 2019 when my old meter stopped working. I have contacted the provider with no response so far. Is it likely my meters have stopped working, or that the link to the cloud has failed or that the provider has blocked my access - more sinister. Have you come across this problem before? Mike
This will be the DCC messing things up. You'll never be told this as it could undermine public confidence in the system, hence lack of response. Fortunately meter itself stores 13 months of data, problem is accessing it...
@@GaryDoesSolar Hi Gary, sorry for the delay - only just seen this. I didn't realise I had turned off notifications for Utube! At the moment I am still with SoEnergy as I am still in dispute over historic estimated bills and they are blocking my switch to Octopus until this is sorted out (with ombudsman at the moment). Today I noticed that readings have started to come back to my online account. No explanation from SE about the reason yet although they have suggested they have found it. Once all is finally settled I will be switching to Octopus and I hope the meters will work properly (they are new second gen meters fitted in January 2024)
What about the risk of a software update going wrong and rendering your system permanently unusable? You’d want a system that allows a factory reset from a permanent ROM image of the firmware. I’m not sure that complex systems like these will even have a factory reset.
Yup, I don't blindly allow software updates on my laptop or phone for this reason, I wait to see if anything nasty happened to the early adopters before I install anything new 😉
Good point. Although, the way the world is today, there's typically no user-control to downgrade systems to previous software versions - moreover, OEMs specially want you to be on the latest version (for many reasons)...
@@GaryDoesSolarare any of the systems Open Source, or are there any projects trying to create one? That’s the only safe way (although open source projects often get bought out and go closed source if they’re any good)
@@dominicgoodwin1147 I do love the idea of Open Source - it's just so..... well, transparent! But you're right, no good deed ever goes unpunished.... 🤷♀
just one of the reasons why off-grid style systems is the future. The Powerwall 3 is actually off-grid when you have a massive solar PVs with low consumption. it will never need to connect to the grid unless you need to export energy for a profit.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how technologies like this are enabling an ever-decreasing reliance on the grid. Even more interesting will be to see the effects of that over time on grid strategy...
My inverter api can be accessed through an email account and password, with no option for mfa access or passkey. I am highly concerned about the lack of security and would imagine a password spray attack would be very successful. I dread to the think the damage that could be done with access to hundreds or even thousands of inverters.
As with many, my concern is the idea that the manufacturer may go bust, or charge for the ongoing service or decide not to support it anymore - ie everything that is going on with the wider IT market or worse, the Wild West of the IoT market. I have a complete SolarEdge system. I would be stuffed if they went bust or stopped supporting it. On privacy, desegregated data is a myth, it is a unicorn. There is an entire industry for re-integrating so-called desegregated data. I was shocked to find that the NHS and their data partners used complete postcodes with their 'desegregated data'. When there are only a handful of houses at a postcode it is shockingly easy to identify the only male and female child on the street, the only black lady, the only asian lady, the 3 pensioners, the military veteran, the lady with cancer, the one with a care provider. You don't need AI to work it out, let alone a data services company.
It's true, and when choosing a supplier for any goods or services, looking at the chance of them still being in business in 5-10 years time is a major factor for me. On the privacy front, I feel there is a day of reckoning coming - anonymised data should be completed anonymised, and somebody should be fired for the case in point you raise (the first few digits of the postcode is way more than enough).
If you move home all your devices that use Wifi would potentially need to be re configured for the new Wifi name and password. My Solar and PV inverters are two such devices. My EV charger uses 3G so that might fail if the government allows 3G to be retired.
I’m utterly fed up of my Inverter supplier deciding how my battery should be managed, I don’t have an issue with smart meters since they are an enabler for flexible tariffs and I don’t see that are a real risk to data security wise, you need to be far more worried about your broadband provider.
Nothing about how smart meters will be used once everyone is captured: - Billing on an hourly tarrif based on previous days demand. - Suppliers can switch off your electricity should your demand increase over what is required for WEF environmental requirements. - Huge increase in power from Data Centres resulting in increasing overall grid demand combined with reduction in nuclear and coal resulting in less electrical power being available for domestic properties. In summary can you trust Government and utility companies to look after your best interests?
This is fine until electric appliances send data to the smart meter and your car and appliances tell it their charging info and your home solar system does the same so you could be made to pay Duty and Taxes on your home generated electricity eg replace fuel duty, or pay higher vat on a washing machine or tumble drier in other words your appliances will spy on you and charge you accordingly and get other info that could be used to find when you are in or out who's there and the house occupants user habits.
I use my skills to correct nuclear promoters' limited and dangerous ideas. They talk about a great big fat nuclear electricity generation concept and ignore the massive grid capacity expansion construction that is needed to get the massive increase amount of electricity to the millions and millions and millions and millions of customers. Economic Energy danger. Military defence danger. CO2 emissions worldwide proliferation danger as more grids are built over centuries.
Your skills have clearly overlooked the fact that the grid is upgraded to cope with the outputs from additional nuclear power stations. The works to connect the 400KV output from Hinkley C, and grid changes to support it are almost complete for example. Also, nuclear doesn't bring a massive boost in the amount of power being generated overall, it allows the replacement of, and shutdown of GHG generating plants in use now. Construction of nuclear plants is very CO2 intensive, over their lifetime they work out for lower than gas/coal. Similar arguments are made against electric cars, again in the long term EVs are far less polluting over the lifespan of the vehicle.
@pup6728 do you know how long your national grid is ? In Australia 20million buildings and 25million people. The grid is 1million klm long, connecting to every customer. Do you know how much new grid capacity is per klm ? Do you know that 15% of total energy used is electricity. So 100% electric energy is 7 times more electricity and 7 TIMES more grid capacity when no fossil fueled future. The first national grid has taken 100years to build. 7 Times bigger capacity while the grid is alive. Then there is all the switch yards and transformers. Streets and roads and buildings including homes are crowded and in use. Yes my skills are beyond many because I have tendered and invoiced progress claims and built power stations and a 1700 transmission towers transmission line. Nuclear promoters will tell you renewables are uneconomic because of the transmission costs. And then ignore more nuclear electricity's grid needs for the future. The grid expansion costs are being hidden from the public. $1million per klm. For the existing grid. A nuclear electric future is limited before it is really started. The danger is nuclear electricity monopolising the existing grid. Nuclear is an economic dead end in a warming world.
@@stephenbrickwood1602 Yes. NG is about 4,500 miles here excluding Scotland and inter-connectors to France, Norway etc. NG is the main backbone DNO's connect to, the DNOs have around half a million miles of electrical cables linking homes, substations, businesses etc. The grid expansion costs are passed on to the DNOs and generators, and therefore into consumers ultimately, pretty much like everything else in life.... FWIW - the extra grid work for Hinkley C is £656 million, it gets recouped from EDF in transmission charges.
@@pup6728 Electricity is the most expensive energy. Offgrid generation in warmer latitudes will mean the grid will be abandoned, and the remainder will have higher proportions of the grid rental costs added to their bills. In the USA, some states are banning Offgrid to maintain cash flow. In cold latitudes, a tank of LNG for emergencies would be ezi pezi. As the climate warms, more energy in the atmosphere and not as cold.
Nuclear is not perfect, but it's great for providing a country's base load. And it's clean compared to fossil fuels. I think it has a big role to play.
A Business Insider article indicates that this is false. Nest thermostats do not contain microphones. Some Nest smoke and CO detectors do contain microphones in order to test the alarms.
@@GaryDoesSolar I just searched on youtube. That was nest security, not thermostat. There was the 5th match on the list . It was from fox business 5 years ago. And they stat, Google did admit that.
@@GaryDoesSolar not at all, more to worry when more people start pushing power to the grid and our energy infrastructure can’t handle (due to be outdated) then energy companies start limiting our production . This already start happening in other eu country. Best solution it will be off-grid . Ofc it’s not for everyone.
Why would I be off grid when currently I can import energy for 7.5p and export for 15p? Sure if the time comes, I can switch back to self consumption but at the moment I can make money by being grid connected, although to be fair, the standing charge needs to be negated from that as its not insignificant these days! Going off grid in the UK costs a fortune as you either need a massively oversized array to cover winter usage, or a generator, both cost way more than just being grid tied. Doesn't mean you have to always use the grid, but it's definitely handy if the connection is already there.
If you're somehow making a huge profit from your electricity bill, I would imagine you need to declare it on a tax return, and HMRC could already check your bank records.
@@robinbennett5994 And maybe that's the issue at hand. It's only profit if you've taken into account the cost of the equipment that allowed you to make that profit. And for non-businesses, that's not an easy thing to do, I'm guessing?
Microgeneration is defined in UK legislation, and is tax free. There's also a £1K allowance for profits trading anything before tax is an issue and it needs to go on a tax return. Covers dabbling on EBay etc.
My main concern is that virtually every company these days wants to suck your blood on a monthly based subscription. If the solar energy companies try the same trick I will be cancelling all internet access (Solis, Myenergi etc)
Yes, subscription models seem to be the way of the world these days, but I can understand why these models exist. For how long can a company continue to support a product or service where only an up-front payment has been made?
It's fine to have subs based services for say an add-on internet portal, but local access should be baked into products by law IMO. This is one reason I went to for Victron kit for my solar/battery. Lots of local access where I can record and store my data myself, but they do have a web based portal too. Should they ever start charging for it, I will just stay 100% local with Home Assistant.
Privacy policy’s are a waste of time, you really have little choice. Agree to the terms or we won’t/ can’t support you. Oh by the way, that can also invalidates your warranty. The only thing I have done is put my inverter on a VPN to segregate it from the rest of house, other than that I’m at the mercy of the manufacturer.
Yea cause cars having always connected computers has worked out great, Ford removing features, cars being disabled after missed payment (which were really just a accounting error on their end). You speak of trusting the company but who really trusts a company to put them first rather than profits, or being bought out and T&Cs change....
You're not wrong James. But those companies that play games like that will quickly get found out, and customers will look elsewhere - that's the free market in action. Trust and reputation is a huge factor in buying just about anything these days...
@@GaryDoesSolar Doesn't seem to be the case for Apple and Microsoft, or Tesla for that matter. Seems if you're big enough in the market you can buck that trend.
@@elminster8149 True - those companies with 'must have' products can certainly wield a lot of control over how their products are controlled post sale, but I'd argue that if those companies push too far, customers will go elsewhere... I'd class myself as a fan of all three of those examples - I'd argue they do far more 'good' than 'bad', no?
@@GaryDoesSolar Not really. All three collect vast amounts of data that people have little to no control over. This is the 'cost' of using their products (besides the monetary ones). There are in most cases other more palatable options, but they require more effort. Depends what you're willing to trade for convenience.
I have two concerns the first is the manufacturer going bust or not supporting the servers which is covered in other comments. The second is an Internet/broadband outage which is likely to occur at a time of a grid outage. Both my electricity and broadband is delivered by overhead cables, a storm can (and has) taken both out at the same time.
If you have no electric, what is the issue of having no internet? Most inverters, unless configured specifically to island when the power goes down, wont run when there is no grid anyway.
@@cingramuk an EPS isolates the house so I'd have back-up power to supply broadband router, etc. So full "off grid" i.e. no electricity & no internet is desirable/essential.
@@barryfitzpatrick4987 EPS is usually described as being a socket that can use Class 2 electrical devices (not requiring an earth) from the inverter/battery. Full off grid (islanding) is more extensive (and expensive) but can give whole home backup (or just 'critical circuits as I have). Both are possible though. I'm still not sure what your issue is with both electric supply and broadband going down? When there are ways/means around them? Do you mean you also want local connectivity for when that happens so you can control without the internet?
@@cingramuk Tesla Powerwalls have an EPS/Gateway as standard for whole house back-up. Obviously there's an extra cost but in the scheme of things it's not that great. I do get regular internet outages usually for only short periods of time but sometimes for extended time (electricity supply is unaffected). So I'd want the battery/solar system is work still, so yes having a system tah can work without the internet either temporarily or permanently (is manufacturer goes bust) has got to be a major requirement.
Unfortunately, Octopus are somewhat reluctant to install a smart meter at my location in the Highlands. I have solar and batteries and I am during the day sending power back to the grid when the 20kw of batteries are full. Octopus states that if I installed panels and batteries they would install a dummy smart meter until such time I have coverage. I have Starlink so there is not a WiFi problem.
Actually in the north UK, DCC use a company called Arqiva who employ Long Range Radio (LRR) connections, typically via TV and radio masts (that they already manage), rather than over cellular. While this covers the vast majority of the North UK, not everywhere has signal. So Octopus are beholden to Arqiva providing LRR coverage in your area. Even areas that have it, can be patchy. For my own meter, I've had to make a passive LRR repeater to get the signal reliably to my meter (basically a big length of coax cable with some dipole antenna on the end). The irony is, I have 5G reception but meter suppliers are not allowed to use cellular meters in the Arqiva areas!
Also I'd imagine Octopus will install an actual smart meter, it would just revert to 'dumb mode' as it can't get a connection. Once the area is covered - Arqiva install a new mast for example - then the meter would just need a visit from an engineer to commission it into smart mode.
@@cingramukthanks for the extra insight. What a crazy world we’re in, where agreements between companies (for billions of pounds!) don’t solve for everyone…
@@GaryDoesSolar yup madness. In Europe I believe they even have the same meters as us, but have comms hubs (the bit on top of the meter that sends data to DCC) that can connect to the internet! But aren't approved in the UK (blocked by GCHQ). You'd think the low hanging fruit for a lot of people in the north with issues is just to allow cellular comms hubs, but of course that will have cost implications for DCC.
Off grid in the suburbs, a Selfplug-in V2G EV, PV, and a natural gas bottle in the corner for winter emergency. Sounds perfect. 😮😊😊😊😊😊 Hahaha 👍 Hahaha.
It depends if there is a local buffer to store data until the connection is restored. Just check in the Growatt portal to see if you have daily data covering 24 hours 👍🏻
@@pup6728not they dont. They have 2 methods of connection depending where in the UK you are based. In the south, they use a segregated cellular network that run (I believe) on Vodaphone. In the north they use a company called Arqiva who use 'Long Range Radio' tech to talk to the meters, also on a dedicated network. The data is all encrypted and only parties with authorisation can access the device (either your supplier or 3rd parties you give authorisation to). Suppliers have more access to the device than 3rd parties, who only have access to read you meter readings (Suppliers can configure the meter). The data is not held anywhere but on your meter or by 3rd parties, the DCC does not buffer the data, contrary to popular belief. Whenever data is requested, the request is sent to the meter, and it responds with encrypted data that only the requestor can decode.
Strongly against any third party or even internet connection to personal solar farm, 1st. that is point OFF GRID 2nd if connected can be hacked 3rd privacy issue.
I'm hearing this from quite a few people in response to my video, actually... For me, it's about trust and reputation of companies who want/require access...
@@GaryDoesSolar In my experience of many years, it is just question of time when "trusted" company started selling your data, we trusted Google, Apple, Facebook ... and what happen, so no reputation will ever convince me that won't change use that data in malicious way. So, policy is simple find best software ever and stay off grid.
* NOTES SINCE PUBLICATION *
I made the comment that smart meters are connected to the Internet. But in reality, smart meters send readings to the energy supplier via a secure, dedicated network.
Exactly. If they were sent via the Internet, they'd be a lot more reliable!
I find your lack of cynicism to be astounding at least you recognise the danger of having all your data being controlled by one company especially if it all goes back to the UN since they look to China as the model to follow! I mean what could possibly go wrong with that. 😢
Your point here is a general one - almost every electronic device today has some element of Chinese manufacturing in it. I’m not sure you would be able to disconnect yourself from the world enough to avoid that? You’ve got to trust someone in the end and my video makes the point that reputation is the key.
@@GaryDoesSolar I trust Jesus the Christ all else I'm suspicious of
@@waynes6009who controls your actual energy supply? One company right? The DNO is responsible for actually getting power to your home so whats the difference if your data is also controlled via one company (DCC)? And what does the UN have to do with anything here?
Fantastic vid Gary and great to see someone finally talking about the security issue of battery systems! Well done! I recently walked away from an install because it was clear the manufacturer / supplier didn't have a clue on security. I fear it will only be a matter of time before state actors seek to implement massive widespread crippling disruption. In the meantime my search goes on for a secure offgrid battery solution that doesn't permit third party control or require internet connectivity.
Cheers - and I hope your search goes well! I'd love to hear what you end up going for :-)
Two observations. 1)before smart meters there were Economy 7 & Economy 10. Back in the 1990's I was working for an energy supplier who offered day, night and weekend day tariffs. 2) smart meters will still need to be "read" onsite periodically to check for signs of tampering.
Smart meters are not that smart and can be manipulated without signs of said manipulation .
Yeah, trust but verify :-) Those systems were pretty innovative in their day as well - Radio Teleswitch Service (RTS)
Another lesson in clarity of communication. Thank you.
Thanks Steve - great to get feedback like this! :-)
I expect inverters in the future to implement some sort of role based access control that will let you decide who can see what. For instance you can grant a 3rd party provider access to only your battery charge status but not to other configurations/settings. This would be similar to what already happens in the phones: when you install an app, the app tells you what permissions it requires and you can decide which ones to grant.
Good point, and when I looked at the API settings for my GivEnergy inverter, it had exactly that! And down to a fine degree as well! 👍🏻
There are pro’s and con’s with everything and you have to make as best an informed decision as you can do.
One point you missed out is the need for LOCAL control of your appliance. Its all very well having a remote control option but you absolutely must have direct local control as well as otherwise you could be looking at an expensive but useless device - whether its as simple as your internet connection goes down, the manufacturer going out of business or just the manufacturer decides to withdraw an API - Jaguar Land Rover I think recently did this resulting in their vehicles no longer being able to be eligble for the Octopus Intelligent Go tariff, and there’s a garage door manufacturer in the US that locked down remote control so you could only remotely operate your garage door via their app - which is now stuffed with adverts.
Direct local control as well as cloud remote is therefore a must-have in my view (and that of many smart home experts as well)
Great points about local control.- thanks fro raising, Geoffrey!
My main concern is what happens if you supplier goes bust and shuts down their servers. How many systems will auto shutdown if they can't connect to the vendors servers? I'm aware some can operate temporarily offline, but not permanently. One UK based vendor has recently laid off staff and seeking further funding. We see it time and time again where "internet connected" devices become expensive paperweights. Early in 2022 200 customers in Edinburgh were disconnected from the grid due to a software "glitch" at their supplier, which was able to remotely disconnect through the smart meter.
That's a very important point - thanks for raising. What I would hope is that while the managing entity (the product/service provider) no longer has value, the underlying customer base may still have a lot of value, and therefore should be attractive for another entity to buy at a knockdown price. The problem comes if those customers are not paying any on-going fees to the original entity (as if often the case in the solar and battery market today) - then, there is no incentive for a new entity to pick up those customers, potentially...
As for the software glitch you describe, that's pretty bad form - and I hope a thorough investigation was carried out to find out exactly what happened.
The issue of remotely controlling your meter, not just remotely reading it, is the problem; including being able to remotely shut down your supply for whatever reason (including software glitches).
100% agree on this, currently I have this issue with my EV charger where I can no longer control it via the supplied app and there are no local controls. When I chose solar I picked an inverter which has local controls as well as remote, a small screen and buttons on the front so if the app service stops working it will still be controllable. These devices are supposed to last 10 years +, the companies that make them may well not.
Power can be cut off by the grid/area manager on an area basis. Details on the sequence of power cuts are available. Smart meters and chargers will give the facility to select the targets for shut down. Do all ev chargers have the capacity to be shut down remotely?. With so many actors I am not clear who could control what and when. I don't want to wait for an event to find out.
Its not just if the supplier goes bust - what if they are the subject of a hostile takeover, and then just shutdown the system and offer you their own product.
Thanks your video covers many questions but also misses a few. I feel there are risks with business going bankrupt or being taken over by other companies with different ideas. There is a risk that a business may change operating model to one of paid subscription for instance and blackmailing customers into paid services. There are many instances of this change of policy across the technology field. I also think there is a risk to a country that starts to have a percentage of solar home generation - this is the forcing a black restart by shutting down home systems across a country. This is too complex to detail here but it could happen.
Thanks Peter - great points! 👍🏻
The problem with privacy policies is that they are policies and can be changed without notice at anytime. Hell, they could even change them back too. They are worthless to the end user. It wouldn’t be worth reading that garbage.
That’s true but a reputable company is unlikely to do that. And even if companies do make changes to their policies, they still have to abide by data privacy legislation like GDPR, which dictate heavily what those policies must cover 👍🏻
That’s true and the bait and switch has cost some Californians millions. Investing in solar and then have the state or government change the rules after. Low down and dirty pool that scares people away from investing in this. Regulations and laws are changing but this darth Vader “I am altering our deal pray I don’t alter it further” has to stop so people will feel safe investing in solar for the long run.
Good video. Hopefully as we nove to more efficient usage, storage and local production, we will all be armed with our data usage over the years to make informed decisions. People still have a fear of the smart meter lying or sending misinformation. Which is laughable when you think how it used to be recorded.
Agreed on all fronts! :-)
Hi Gary, you videos are concise, clear and very informative on this complex subject matter. Your in depth knowledge and presentation style are commendable indeed! I would like you insight on the the new Sunsaver Plus Solar subscription as i am interested as such. Will you do a video on this potentially growing area in the market please? I look forward to your comments
Hi James - that's such great feedback! Thank you! :-)
Ok, I don't know much about this company, but it's always worth searching for unbiased opinion on social media sites like this one: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466/search/?q=sunsave
I like your idea around me doing a video on these companies - will add to the list...!
@@GaryDoesSolar I will probably go down this route and I would like to share my experiences maybe with you and I welcome a collaboration/interview some time in the future if that is possible?
@@smartjim Ok, sounds like a plan. I can't promise I'd make a video on the topic, but it does feel like one I should cover at some point, and should I do that, I'd love to have your feedback on the service, should you make a decision to go with them 👍 I don't see any reason why that should not be achieved in an interview format with yourself.
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks Gary, in fact I have signed up for this service and now working on the dates of installation hopefully early May is looking like. I will keep you posted. Can I contact you via the Patreon service with updates?
@@smartjim Sounds good. And yes, you can do that, or if you want to send me data, please feel free to email: me@GaryDoesSolar.com
In my recent video I compared the heating and solar industries. In it I said that Solar inverters were excellent for data acquisition and historical storage, but terrible with control options (Solaredge for instance limits the best battery options to installers). Conversely the heating industry gives the end user a lot of control over the heating system but it’s terrible with data acquisition.
I’ve made two videos on redressing the balance for my heat pump already. There’s going to be a third video, I’ve been busy!
Thanks Anthony, and this is a topic I hope to be looking into in detail later this year :-)
For anyone who doesn't already follow Anthony's channel, here is a link to the first part of his current series on heat pumps, to get you started: ua-cam.com/video/EQMVOz6s2kk/v-deo.html
Great video. It does seem to heavily centre around trust, but the features do seem to be worth the small risk at present. I will say that for my own solar system the physical hardware was connected to a separate vlan on the network so East-West communications are blocked and only the required WAN destinations are permitted. To be fair that should apply to all IoT devices people install these days. It’s sad, but I would bet that the majority of home networks lack the sophistication to have any real security at all!
These devices are connecting to your network, do you know what they are capable of doing… I don’t… I do know it is trivial to gain full access to your network if they wanted to.
Yeah, I'm not even sure people realise just how dangerous any software on your home PC can be.... it can attempt to access anything it chooses to.
Surely the companies will want to get paid for all these facilities and add it to the monthly bills,also as in Australia where they are now starting to CHARGE for feedback to the grid at peak supply of feed in, and people are unable to use it themselves at that time and it has to go into the grid, this sun dependent action is universal to all those with panels.
It's interesting to see how tariff rates (including export rates) will change over time with ever-increasing solar and wind capacities. The opportunity for consumers will be to have a large enough battery to store solar and export back when the grid needs it most...
Great vid, Gary
Thanks Gary 👍🏻
Interesting video and veiw point and by and large I agree with your sentiment. However there are times when even reputable companies screw up even those that have or had ISO 27001 off the top of my head I can think of a company outside of Solar arena like VW and deisel gate that was a 'firmware overide' when a testing scenario was detected.
Whats to stop a company fudging the figures to prove their batteries for example are better than others if you just come to rely on 'cloud based evidence' supplied by that company? Sorry I've been quite cynical since getting burned a couple of times with cloud based evidence. Moreover, over the air updates or any updates to firmware/ software that are needed I tend to lag behind and only allow them once other ginea pigs have shown there are no downsides or rather dangerous bugs
Great points, Gary - thanks for raising :-)
Thanks Gary for opening up this subject. My plant dashboard is hosted by the system supplier (SunSynk) and the settings are locked down by the installer - I am a bit concerned about this situation. I know the installer can allow me to login and change settings, not that I need to do this on a daily basis. My data is transmitted to Octopus via the smart meter so I don't think if I disconnected the inverter from the internet I will interrupt the supply or lose control. On the inverter there is a control panel so I can see the status of the system. However, maybe the web dashboard would not work. Any thoughts/comments welcome! 😁
You're most welcome. Now, I don't know too much about Sunsynk, but I do hate it when suppliers lock down their systems in this way (like we consumers can't be trusted!) Worth asking them to unlock it - I'm sure they'd consider such a request if you could demonstrate that you know what you're doing and only wish to make changes to certain settings etc.
@@GaryDoesSolar @EngineerLewis Whether manufacturers/installers/suppliers locked down their inverters was one of the key factors I considered when looking at systems last year. I have a Loxone home automation system and it was a key requirement that I could connect to and control my solar and battery system through that system locally. I chose Sunsynk as they had by far the most controllable inverter system and six months on I would make the same choice again. Some Sunsynk installers will restrict customers access but I have to commend Sunsynk as, if requested by the customer, they will remove any restrictions and provide full control to the customer and this does not affect the inverter warranty.
I am sold on smart meters for obtaining the cost savings for my electric car and solar panels but. The smart meter I had fitted does not work because it relies on a mobile phone system signal to transmit it information my area has a very week to nonexistent signal so the meter only records total input KWH I have fibre broadband but smart meters can’t connect to that. I am told Do you know of any solutions to this problem. ?
So, I kind of get it that there are very good reasons to keep smart meter traffic well away from the Internet (by using private networks) but one of the great things about the Internet is that it's resilient for applications - data can get from A to B by any number of routes if it wants, so why not allow those smart meters that could not otherwise connect to use the Internet?
For example, I know that Octopus is looking at their Octopus Mini product as a way of retrieving 30-minute readings in areas of poor smart meter connectivity...
The only way to avoid your data getting in the wrong hands or going to marketing companies etc is to leave society and go live in a cave or something! 😂 You're channel and content is great btw Gary. I have found your videos extremely helpful and well presented! Btw, I don't know if your are aware but you're audio keeps clipping when your start talking? I've noticed it in a lot of your videos I don't know if anyone else has?
Thanks Phil. for your kind words about my channel :-)
Now, I do clip out my breathing etc. and this may be the source of the problem. It depends which application or device you are using. I've never experienced issues with a desktop PC, for example, although it happens from time to time (not just my videos) on my Fire TV stick.
I looked into software security for my masters in software engineering. The biggest threat for solar and meters is a denial of service attack. Its not a question of if but when. Also a targeted attack could, depending on the battery type, cause a fire buy over charging the batteries. I agree that the collected data is not that sensitive and a solar system could disguise your trye usage. It's the remote nature of access that is the threat. And abuse of that by government, law enforcement or bad actor. I plan to disconnect my inverter from the web and creat my own server that it talks too. But this is not a trivial task. There needs to be a standard that all systems adhere to that limits access and allows owners to self host the software.
Important points - thanks for raising. I didn't consider hacking to that effect!
I’ve got a Solis system and Dyness batteries. As soon as I was happy it was working well, the Wi-Fi dongle was unplugged. It now carries on running quite happily by itself. There might be updates, but if it’s happy why take the risk updating? There’s no guarantee the update would be better for me.
Good point. Worth checking that you’re not invalidating any warranties though 👍🏻
I did the same, though mainly because the Solis app is pretty mediocre. I actually raised a support request to have the inverter software updated and they were happy to agree a day I'd temporarily plug the WiFi dongle back in.
These days my inverter monitoring and control is all done via a Waveshare RS485 to RJ45 Ethernet Converter that plugs into the network switch so Home Assistant can see and command it. Working very well for over a year.
You didn't mention manufacturers quietly removing features or subtly degrading performance to force early 'upgrade' or replacement...
Appalling behaviour, and I would like to think that such practices would become common knowledge on social media forums. They would then lose customers…
I find myself in the ‘allow’ camp. Tesla controls my battery management and Octopus controls and devises the charging plan for my EV. I don’t see it as any different from using my phone where the functions of the various apps are managed a variety of third parties.
I’m in the same camp, but only with manufacturers I trust 👍🏻
My system is accessed by 4 companies. Tesla for the Powerwall 2, Solar Edge for the inverters/panal optimisers, MyEnergy for the Zappi/Harvey and hub and lastly, the installer Joju. Octopus have the Smart Meter access that the others do not, but they have no access or control over the system.
I am on the Flux tariff at present. It works for me for the most part, however, during the coldest days when my heating (I am all electric), was working harder, I could not charge the Powerwall sufficiently in the 3 hours of cheap energy between 2 to 5 to cover house use during the rest of the day. Tesla restrict charging to 1.8k from the mains, and that will not give anywhere near a full charge :-(. That has only affected late December and January due to the very short days. Now Solar is ramping up, I only charge from the mains on very bad days, and can make do with that 3 hour window for the most part. It will give me 19 kWh into the car on the cheap rate, which is the main thing :-).
Reality is, if you want to be paid for your surplus generation, you have to trust somebody. But research is wise!
A natural gas bottle in the corner for winter emergency, with a selfplug-in V2G EV, and rooftop PV, then off grid in the suburbs sounds perfect all year. 😮😊😊😊😊😊
Hahaha 👍 Hahaha.
Yup, that could work :-)
I lost a couple of years of data when Solis migrated to their new platform. It's not cost me anything except the ability to say when it's paid for itself, so it's just an annoyance.
A much bigger worry is that same device has access to my wifi and is reporting to servers in China. I trust my energy provider and the UK DCC a lot more than anything in China. I'm no cybersecurity expert, but I could easily imagine a Solis employee selling access to my wifi to a hacker, or being forced to hand it over to the Chinese Gov.
I agree - this is a big issue!
One reason my WiFi is segregated into virtual networks and untrusted devices can only call out to the internet and not to other devices on my network (trusted devices can connect to untrusted though). And why I went with Victron rather than a Chinese inverter brand.
The platform should allow you to download your data for backup/archival purposes.
Missed one. The installer of your systems usually sets themselves up as the "system admin". I find this more worrying, as they could manipulate your system to create a reason for a callout, as you are more likely to call the installer first... 🤔
True, and I guess like any Internet-based service you use today. Again, it comes down to trust and reputation, in my view.
Most worrying is they go bust or forget your details when you then need to do an update or some other admin. Or they try to charge you some random fee to administer it. I don't agree at all with installers holding the keys. You've bought a device, you should get the keys.
@@cingramuk That's not the real problem. The real problem is they will set a weak password that means the system can be easily hacked and shutdown.
@@elminster8149 Also very true! Or just leave the default 'admin' password!
The amount of trust people place in government and energy companies astounds me.........just because they keep offering juicy bait to do so.
You keep moving further into their hands if you so wish, while I'll continue to move further off-grid, and increase self sufficiency. 😀
Yeah, I guess it’s down to our attitude on trust and risk. And we’re all different in that respect 👍🏻
Why not do both? I have solar and batteries, but Octopus offer me 7.5p import and 15p export. So I charge overnight on cheap rate and export everything. If they ever 'go rogue' then I can revert to self consumption. Win/win. BTW do you have a grid connection? Placing a lot of trust your DNO doesn't just decide to turn off your supply 😜
@@cingramuk because I have no desire to have a smart meter, and therefore I am non compliant, I cannot access those rates. Hence moving further off-grid, is my preferred solution.
Hi Gary
Since I had new smart meters installed at the end of January I was getting daily readings from my provider's website. BUT on 26 February this stopped. I am away from home and want to collect daily readings over a few weeks to establish a reasonable daily average to sort out a long-standing dispute over my bill since 2019 when my old meter stopped working. I have contacted the provider with no response so far. Is it likely my meters have stopped working, or that the link to the cloud has failed or that the provider has blocked my access - more sinister.
Have you come across this problem before?
Mike
Hi Michael, no I've not. Who is your energy provider? If they're unresponsive, you can always raise a case with the ombudsman...
This will be the DCC messing things up. You'll never be told this as it could undermine public confidence in the system, hence lack of response. Fortunately meter itself stores 13 months of data, problem is accessing it...
@@GaryDoesSolar Hi Gary, sorry for the delay - only just seen this. I didn't realise I had turned off notifications for Utube!
At the moment I am still with SoEnergy as I am still in dispute over historic estimated bills and they are blocking my switch to Octopus until this is sorted out (with ombudsman at the moment). Today I noticed that readings have started to come back to my online account. No explanation from SE about the reason yet although they have suggested they have found it. Once all is finally settled I will be switching to Octopus and I hope the meters will work properly (they are new second gen meters fitted in January 2024)
Best thing I did was allowing Octopus Energy to take control of the battery. No complaints at all 👍
Hi Douglas, yeah, it's all about trust and reputation - and I make no secret that I trust Octopus Energy to do the right thing.
What about the risk of a software update going wrong and rendering your system permanently unusable? You’d want a system that allows a factory reset from a permanent ROM image of the firmware. I’m not sure that complex systems like these will even have a factory reset.
Yup, I don't blindly allow software updates on my laptop or phone for this reason, I wait to see if anything nasty happened to the early adopters before I install anything new 😉
Good point. Although, the way the world is today, there's typically no user-control to downgrade systems to previous software versions - moreover, OEMs specially want you to be on the latest version (for many reasons)...
@@GaryDoesSolarare any of the systems Open Source, or are there any projects trying to create one? That’s the only safe way (although open source projects often get bought out and go closed source if they’re any good)
@@dominicgoodwin1147 I do love the idea of Open Source - it's just so..... well, transparent! But you're right, no good deed ever goes unpunished.... 🤷♀
Brands like Sunsynk/Deye are commonly deployed in areas without internet connectivity; they just work. Good reason to avoid 'consumer' brands.
just one of the reasons why off-grid style systems is the future. The Powerwall 3 is actually off-grid when you have a massive solar PVs with low consumption. it will never need to connect to the grid unless you need to export energy for a profit.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how technologies like this are enabling an ever-decreasing reliance on the grid. Even more interesting will be to see the effects of that over time on grid strategy...
My inverter api can be accessed through an email account and password, with no option for mfa access or passkey. I am highly concerned about the lack of security and would imagine a password spray attack would be very successful. I dread to the think the damage that could be done with access to hundreds or even thousands of inverters.
Crikey - that's pretty backward-thinking API design!
As with many, my concern is the idea that the manufacturer may go bust, or charge for the ongoing service or decide not to support it anymore - ie everything that is going on with the wider IT market or worse, the Wild West of the IoT market. I have a complete SolarEdge system. I would be stuffed if they went bust or stopped supporting it.
On privacy, desegregated data is a myth, it is a unicorn. There is an entire industry for re-integrating so-called desegregated data. I was shocked to find that the NHS and their data partners used complete postcodes with their 'desegregated data'. When there are only a handful of houses at a postcode it is shockingly easy to identify the only male and female child on the street, the only black lady, the only asian lady, the 3 pensioners, the military veteran, the lady with cancer, the one with a care provider. You don't need AI to work it out, let alone a data services company.
It's true, and when choosing a supplier for any goods or services, looking at the chance of them still being in business in 5-10 years time is a major factor for me.
On the privacy front, I feel there is a day of reckoning coming - anonymised data should be completed anonymised, and somebody should be fired for the case in point you raise (the first few digits of the postcode is way more than enough).
If you move home all your devices that use Wifi would potentially need to be re configured for the new Wifi name and password. My Solar and PV inverters are two such devices. My EV charger uses 3G so that might fail if the government allows 3G to be retired.
Yeah, technology progression does have its downsides, unfortunately. And it generally requires continued support and attention! :-/
I am less concerned about my individual data but rather the macro data allowing the manipulation of people on mass.
Agreed, but then there will always be politics, and I'm not sure that can ever be fixed :-/
I’m utterly fed up of my Inverter supplier deciding how my battery should be managed, I don’t have an issue with smart meters since they are an enabler for flexible tariffs and I don’t see that are a real risk to data security wise, you need to be far more worried about your broadband provider.
Agreed.
Nothing about how smart meters will be used once everyone is captured:
- Billing on an hourly tarrif based on previous days demand.
- Suppliers can switch off your electricity should your demand increase over what is required for WEF environmental requirements.
- Huge increase in power from Data Centres resulting in increasing overall grid demand combined with reduction in nuclear and coal resulting in less electrical power being available for domestic properties.
In summary can you trust Government and utility companies to look after your best interests?
I don't trust governments to do anything well, to be honest... :-/
Just for fun: at 8:57 the photoshopping of that app on the phone is soooo bad that there are actually 2 (different) time displays 1152 and 1421 🤣
Haha - well spotted, Richard! I'll need to up my game on photoshopping stuff! :-)
the biggest advantage a smart meter: some berk doesn’t have to come round and reprimand you for having dogs in the house…….
Can't argue with that!
This is fine until electric appliances send data to the smart meter and your car and appliances tell it their charging info and your home solar system does the same so you could be made to pay Duty and Taxes on your home generated electricity eg replace fuel duty, or pay higher vat on a washing machine or tumble drier in other words your appliances will spy on you and charge you accordingly and get other info that could be used to find when you are in or out who's there and the house occupants user habits.
I'd still argue that your bank statements and phone records would tell much more about you...?
All of this really complicates life for what real benefits without tax subsidies?
I don't disagree, but it does seem the way the word is going...
I use my skills to correct nuclear promoters' limited and dangerous ideas.
They talk about a great big fat nuclear electricity generation concept and ignore the massive grid capacity expansion construction that is needed to get the massive increase amount of electricity to the millions and millions and millions and millions of customers.
Economic Energy danger.
Military defence danger.
CO2 emissions worldwide proliferation danger as more grids are built over centuries.
Your skills have clearly overlooked the fact that the grid is upgraded to cope with the outputs from additional nuclear power stations.
The works to connect the 400KV output from Hinkley C, and grid changes to support it are almost complete for example.
Also, nuclear doesn't bring a massive boost in the amount of power being generated overall, it allows the replacement of, and shutdown of GHG generating plants in use now.
Construction of nuclear plants is very CO2 intensive, over their lifetime they work out for lower than gas/coal.
Similar arguments are made against electric cars, again in the long term EVs are far less polluting over the lifespan of the vehicle.
@pup6728 do you know how long your national grid is ?
In Australia 20million buildings and 25million people.
The grid is 1million klm long, connecting to every customer.
Do you know how much new grid capacity is per klm ?
Do you know that 15% of total energy used is electricity.
So 100% electric energy is 7 times more electricity and 7 TIMES more grid capacity when no fossil fueled future.
The first national grid has taken 100years to build. 7 Times bigger capacity while the grid is alive.
Then there is all the switch yards and transformers.
Streets and roads and buildings including homes are crowded and in use.
Yes my skills are beyond many because I have tendered and invoiced progress claims and built power stations and a 1700 transmission towers transmission line.
Nuclear promoters will tell you renewables are uneconomic because of the transmission costs.
And then ignore more nuclear electricity's grid needs for the future.
The grid expansion costs are being hidden from the public.
$1million per klm. For the existing grid.
A nuclear electric future is limited before it is really started.
The danger is nuclear electricity monopolising the existing grid.
Nuclear is an economic dead end in a warming world.
@@stephenbrickwood1602 Yes.
NG is about 4,500 miles here excluding Scotland and inter-connectors to France, Norway etc.
NG is the main backbone DNO's connect to, the DNOs have around half a million miles of electrical cables linking homes, substations, businesses etc.
The grid expansion costs are passed on to the DNOs and generators, and therefore into consumers ultimately, pretty much like everything else in life....
FWIW - the extra grid work for Hinkley C is £656 million, it gets recouped from EDF in transmission charges.
@@pup6728 Electricity is the most expensive energy.
Offgrid generation in warmer latitudes will mean the grid will be abandoned, and the remainder will have higher proportions of the grid rental costs added to their bills.
In the USA, some states are banning Offgrid to maintain cash flow.
In cold latitudes, a tank of LNG for emergencies would be ezi pezi.
As the climate warms, more energy in the atmosphere and not as cold.
Nuclear is not perfect, but it's great for providing a country's base load. And it's clean compared to fossil fuels. I think it has a big role to play.
very interesting, nobody worry about nest thermostats which have a secret, "undocumented" microphone.
Interesting - do you have sources for this information?
A Business Insider article indicates that this is false. Nest thermostats do not contain microphones. Some Nest smoke and CO detectors do contain microphones in order to test the alarms.
@@GaryDoesSolar I just searched on youtube. That was nest security, not thermostat. There was the 5th match on the list . It was from fox business 5 years ago. And they stat, Google did admit that.
Octopus seem incapable of actually installing smart meters.
Tell me more?
I felt sorry for people who’s have all smart meters and grid tight solar system . Only off-grid nowadays
I’m not sure smart meters are much to worry about?
@@GaryDoesSolar not at all, more to worry when more people start pushing power to the grid and our energy infrastructure can’t handle (due to be outdated) then energy companies start limiting our production . This already start happening in other eu country. Best solution it will be off-grid . Ofc it’s not for everyone.
Why would I be off grid when currently I can import energy for 7.5p and export for 15p? Sure if the time comes, I can switch back to self consumption but at the moment I can make money by being grid connected, although to be fair, the standing charge needs to be negated from that as its not insignificant these days! Going off grid in the UK costs a fortune as you either need a massively oversized array to cover winter usage, or a generator, both cost way more than just being grid tied. Doesn't mean you have to always use the grid, but it's definitely handy if the connection is already there.
Soon you be taxed on any shared energy as the government will say you made money when the utility did
Yeah, I've seen some pretty dodgy taxes from certain governments, so it wouldn't surprise me :-/
@@GaryDoesSolar I think they will wait until the majority of people are hooked up and sharing.
If you're somehow making a huge profit from your electricity bill, I would imagine you need to declare it on a tax return, and HMRC could already check your bank records.
@@robinbennett5994 And maybe that's the issue at hand. It's only profit if you've taken into account the cost of the equipment that allowed you to make that profit. And for non-businesses, that's not an easy thing to do, I'm guessing?
Microgeneration is defined in UK legislation, and is tax free.
There's also a £1K allowance for profits trading anything before tax is an issue and it needs to go on a tax return. Covers dabbling on EBay etc.
I control it all. Why? Because privacy matters.
A sound strategy, certainly. Is your system disconnected from the computer Internet then?
@@GaryDoesSolar not entirely as I can control it remotely but I have security in place
I sometimes come here for the straight, clear presentation… even when the topic is not one that speaks to me.
Thanks Mark :-) Great feedback!
My main concern is that virtually every company these days wants to suck your blood on a monthly based subscription. If the solar energy companies try the same trick I will be cancelling all internet access (Solis, Myenergi etc)
Yes, subscription models seem to be the way of the world these days, but I can understand why these models exist. For how long can a company continue to support a product or service where only an up-front payment has been made?
It's fine to have subs based services for say an add-on internet portal, but local access should be baked into products by law IMO. This is one reason I went to for Victron kit for my solar/battery. Lots of local access where I can record and store my data myself, but they do have a web based portal too. Should they ever start charging for it, I will just stay 100% local with Home Assistant.
Privacy policy’s are a waste of time, you really have little choice. Agree to the terms or we won’t/ can’t support you. Oh by the way, that can also invalidates your warranty. The only thing I have done is put my inverter on a VPN to segregate it from the rest of house, other than that I’m at the mercy of the manufacturer.
Good point about isolating the solar equipment from the rest of the house 👍🏻
Yea cause cars having always connected computers has worked out great, Ford removing features, cars being disabled after missed payment (which were really just a accounting error on their end).
You speak of trusting the company but who really trusts a company to put them first rather than profits, or being bought out and T&Cs change....
You're not wrong James. But those companies that play games like that will quickly get found out, and customers will look elsewhere - that's the free market in action. Trust and reputation is a huge factor in buying just about anything these days...
@@GaryDoesSolar Doesn't seem to be the case for Apple and Microsoft, or Tesla for that matter. Seems if you're big enough in the market you can buck that trend.
@@elminster8149 True - those companies with 'must have' products can certainly wield a lot of control over how their products are controlled post sale, but I'd argue that if those companies push too far, customers will go elsewhere... I'd class myself as a fan of all three of those examples - I'd argue they do far more 'good' than 'bad', no?
@@GaryDoesSolar Not really. All three collect vast amounts of data that people have little to no control over. This is the 'cost' of using their products (besides the monetary ones). There are in most cases other more palatable options, but they require more effort. Depends what you're willing to trade for convenience.
I have two concerns the first is the manufacturer going bust or not supporting the servers which is covered in other comments. The second is an Internet/broadband outage which is likely to occur at a time of a grid outage. Both my electricity and broadband is delivered by overhead cables, a storm can (and has) taken both out at the same time.
If you have no electric, what is the issue of having no internet? Most inverters, unless configured specifically to island when the power goes down, wont run when there is no grid anyway.
@@cingramuk an EPS isolates the house so I'd have back-up power to supply broadband router, etc. So full "off grid" i.e. no electricity & no internet is desirable/essential.
@@barryfitzpatrick4987 EPS is usually described as being a socket that can use Class 2 electrical devices (not requiring an earth) from the inverter/battery. Full off grid (islanding) is more extensive (and expensive) but can give whole home backup (or just 'critical circuits as I have). Both are possible though. I'm still not sure what your issue is with both electric supply and broadband going down? When there are ways/means around them? Do you mean you also want local connectivity for when that happens so you can control without the internet?
@@cingramuk Tesla Powerwalls have an EPS/Gateway as standard for whole house back-up. Obviously there's an extra cost but in the scheme of things it's not that great.
I do get regular internet outages usually for only short periods of time but sometimes for extended time (electricity supply is unaffected). So I'd want the battery/solar system is work still, so yes having a system tah can work without the internet either temporarily or permanently (is manufacturer goes bust) has got to be a major requirement.
Good points, Barry - thanks for raising!
Unfortunately, Octopus are somewhat reluctant to install a smart meter at my location in the Highlands.
I have solar and batteries and I am during the day sending power back to the grid when the 20kw of batteries are full.
Octopus states that if I installed panels and batteries they would install a dummy smart meter until such time I have coverage. I have Starlink so there is not a WiFi problem.
Yeah, these smart meters tend to require a mobile connection, and not just any mobile connection, but one from their approved mobile providers...
Actually in the north UK, DCC use a company called Arqiva who employ Long Range Radio (LRR) connections, typically via TV and radio masts (that they already manage), rather than over cellular. While this covers the vast majority of the North UK, not everywhere has signal. So Octopus are beholden to Arqiva providing LRR coverage in your area. Even areas that have it, can be patchy. For my own meter, I've had to make a passive LRR repeater to get the signal reliably to my meter (basically a big length of coax cable with some dipole antenna on the end). The irony is, I have 5G reception but meter suppliers are not allowed to use cellular meters in the Arqiva areas!
Also I'd imagine Octopus will install an actual smart meter, it would just revert to 'dumb mode' as it can't get a connection. Once the area is covered - Arqiva install a new mast for example - then the meter would just need a visit from an engineer to commission it into smart mode.
@@cingramukthanks for the extra insight. What a crazy world we’re in, where agreements between companies (for billions of pounds!) don’t solve for everyone…
@@GaryDoesSolar yup madness. In Europe I believe they even have the same meters as us, but have comms hubs (the bit on top of the meter that sends data to DCC) that can connect to the internet! But aren't approved in the UK (blocked by GCHQ). You'd think the low hanging fruit for a lot of people in the north with issues is just to allow cellular comms hubs, but of course that will have cost implications for DCC.
Off grid in the suburbs, a Selfplug-in V2G EV, PV, and a natural gas bottle in the corner for winter emergency.
Sounds perfect. 😮😊😊😊😊😊
Hahaha 👍 Hahaha.
Yup, that could work :-)
I turn my wifi off at night , so does that mean I loose data from my growatt system ?
It depends if there is a local buffer to store data until the connection is restored. Just check in the Growatt portal to see if you have daily data covering 24 hours 👍🏻
Hello from rural down under here am off grid remote rural, no smart meters here and I power a house workshop and various sheds, solar and wind.
Sounds great! :-)
Sounds perfect. What inverter hardware do you use?
Acme is an astronomical term for the Highest point of an orbit. The opposite is the nadir.
Errrm, you sure? www.dictionary.com/browse/apoapsis
@@GaryDoesSolar yep same dictionary defines acme as the highest point summit
@@andrewknots Slightly different, I'd argue: www.dictionary.com/browse/acme but good debate 👍
Me, I have blocked all internet to those devices. Including mesh and cellphone.
It started when we got solar(sma) and smart meters.
Those devices wanted to talk via radio whith no explanation to me.
I think it’s getting increasingly difficult to avoid the Internet for daily living though…
@@GaryDoesSolar Do smart meters use the Internet though?
Theres no reason for them to, even if they have IP addresses.
@@pup6728 Actually, that was a mistake on my part (now corrected with a pinned comment) - they are connected via a private network.
@@pup6728not they dont. They have 2 methods of connection depending where in the UK you are based. In the south, they use a segregated cellular network that run (I believe) on Vodaphone. In the north they use a company called Arqiva who use 'Long Range Radio' tech to talk to the meters, also on a dedicated network. The data is all encrypted and only parties with authorisation can access the device (either your supplier or 3rd parties you give authorisation to). Suppliers have more access to the device than 3rd parties, who only have access to read you meter readings (Suppliers can configure the meter). The data is not held anywhere but on your meter or by 3rd parties, the DCC does not buffer the data, contrary to popular belief. Whenever data is requested, the request is sent to the meter, and it responds with encrypted data that only the requestor can decode.
God.
Quite possibly!
@@GaryDoesSolar 😉
Strongly against any third party or even internet connection to personal solar farm, 1st. that is point OFF GRID 2nd if connected can be hacked 3rd privacy issue.
I'm hearing this from quite a few people in response to my video, actually... For me, it's about trust and reputation of companies who want/require access...
@@GaryDoesSolar In my experience of many years, it is just question of time when "trusted" company started selling your data, we trusted Google, Apple, Facebook ... and what happen, so no reputation will ever convince me that won't change use that data in malicious way. So, policy is simple find best software ever and stay off grid.