Enphase vs Tigo | Watch this REAL TEST | Which one is better? Microinverter vs Optimizer
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- The time has come, to test these two together! Enphase IQ8A Microinverter versus Tigo Power Optimizer + SMA String Inverter! We performed another set of 20+ Tests, with and without shading to determine which one wins the battle!
Are they really that different?
What is the cost comparison?
What do you guys think? Let me know!
CHECK OUT MY OTHER TESTING VIDEOS:
REC 400W Vs. Aptos 400W
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If you are looking to install a solar system for your home, I truly hope that my videos will become a guide for you. My goal is to educate homeowners on solar and storage with no strings attached, no pressured sales tactics... just by sharing my knowledge and 8+ years of experience in the solar industry. I hope you like enjoy it, and stay for more education to come :)
----Contents of this video ----------------------------
00:00 - Intro
00:25 - Difference Between the two
2.33 - Our Testing Set up
3:36 Test 1-3 No Direct Shade Applied
6:35 - Test 4 -9 - Direct Sunblock
15:22 Test 10-11 Diffuse Shade (Chimney)
17:41 - Test 12 Small Leafs
19:14 - Comparison Of Total Energy Production
20:02 - Cost Comparison And Conclusion
*******************************
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Best solar videos on UA-cam. I love these experiments so much
Awww! That makes me so motivated to keep doing those tests. Truly, I appreciate the comment!
Indeed hands on results
I'd like to see this same test but how much battery is charged to a battery backup
I'm an older women who is fascinated with solar. I never trusted data sheets so I really appreciate your testing. Very clear and easy to understand. Thank you so much!
Thank you so much for watching and leaving a comment. I really appreciate it!
As one who working in the electronics industry as an engineer for over 40 years, I can assure you that a good deal of effort in both characterization and testing in performed on electronic components before they are released for use.
For reputable companies like Enphase, Togo and SMA, the data sheet that you seem to dispute was developed not by some marketing guy, but by real engineers who sample a significant number of the product, collect and analyze the data under specified conditions and use statistic to summarize the results with MIN/MAX/TYP values. MIN and MAX values are +/- 3 sigma.
You are at liberty to challenge the results produced in the datasheet but I would urge you to contact the manufacturer if you have an issue with the result or the test method used.
As an engineer that worked in Industrial automation industry utilizing inverters (VFD) in very hot environment like paper and steel mills I can assure you that electronic equipment is not happy being hot. I'll bet roof temperature in summer could easily get to 120 to 130 degrees. Personally I'll keep my extra cash in the bank and go with high quality string inverter.
Datasheets are the backbone of all electronic design and the key to maximising efficiency and safety. Without accurate data, it's all guesswork. So, the question you should be asking is
"Do I trust the company producing the datasheet?" a lot of cheap imported stuff makes outrageous & unrealistic performance claims, often promoting hazardous use. The secret is to avoid Amazon products with no vowels in the name and stick with brands you know and trust, even if the cost is higher. Burning down your house can be very expensive and losing your life.. well.. nuff said..
There isn’t any inherent problem with datasheets, and it’s easy to spot the rare situation where one is inaccurate or even fraudulent. What the tests in this kind of video are achieving is *system level* performance results based on factors that affect the whole system, especially when it’s only 1 panel amongst an array that is somehow compromised. It’s no fault of the datasheet that system-level performance isn’t reflected in them.
The huge advantage of optimisers is that the DC power that comes down from the roof can go straight to a DC coupled battery and charge it with no conversion losses. This power is additional to the 10 kW limit of the inverter and thereby allows more than 10kW of power to be used by the house if the panels can provide more than 10 kW. As home DC car chargers are introduced EVs will be able to be charged and avoid two current conversion losses.
Yes! If you have seen my other videos I personally prefer central/ hybrids over anything.
🙌🏼
Unfortunately it's also more dangerous to have all that DC coming straight off the roof.
DC has been coming off my roof for the last six years with no issues.
@@johnrogers1423 It's never an issue until it is.
@@Mavisto2"dangerous" is all about how one manages risk: Clipping, shutoffs, shunts, etc... Unprofessional (whether individual OR "certified" contractor) installation = "Dangerous". Asking EVERY question in depth, even when one thinks one has them all covered is how "Dangerous" is removed from the equation. This is not new tech and the field of managing DC is very mature. It's only when someone decide to be willfully ignorant (ie: lazy about asking) or cut corners on necessary costs that risk becomes high and dangerous becomes real.
Keep in mind that Enphase is also taking their AC reading AT THE SOLAR PANEL... whereas the Tigo / SMA reading for AC is at the SMA inverter, presumably a lot closer to the house utility panel... closer to the loads. Each leg of the Enphase is coming down at 120 volts vs 400+ volts DC for the Tigo/SMA system. So it's not inconsequential... could be another 4 or 5% less yield. Lastly, to get a real reading, you should be using a third party meter for both systems, at the point of connection to the loads. Maybe some CTs could do that.
Enphase is 240V not 120V.
The production CT’s on emphases is inside the combiner box.
@@slagmaker6780 each leg, so 120 times 2
Back in March 2020, I got 3 groups of 4 panels powered by APS microinveters with a small device that looks like a wifi router that reports the power output through wifi / internet. This small device didn’t cost USD 700, it was in the neighborhood of USD 150 if I recall correctly. It didn’t need a central unit, all microinverters were connected directly to my house’s power panel. Each microinverter takes care of 4 panels, so I bought 3, plus cables. I bought the whole system as a turnkey from a small firm led by a real electrical engineer. In comparison to a centralized system which he also quoted, without optimizer, there was a 20-25% difference. Based on the performance criteria, as it was an investment for 25 years, I went with the microinverters. I don’t know what the prices are at the moment (I’m not in US), but I guess adding an optimizer would decrease the difference, and still 2 issues to be addressed that you didn’t mention: electrical safety and future maintenance. Electrical safety: a centralized inverter with 12 panels in series would amount to 600V, before the AC output which is a hazard (in factories, 440V requires specialized technicians, individual protection equipment, etc), while the microinventers are dealing with 50V in parallel before the AC output, and the 3 inverters are independent from each other. Maintenance: although panels have 25 year warranty, the inventers probably have 5 years (perhaps 10 in some cases). If a centralized inverter goes down after the warranty ends, you have to pay 100% of the system price to replace it, and during that time you get 0% power from the solar panels. In comparison, with microinventers, if one goes down, in my case I will pay 33% to replace it, and still will have 66% of the power. Those are important aspects to consider. My system will have paid back itself sometime this year, I’m paying minimun consuption for my electricity provider, with still 2000 kwh in credit. Water heating included, I moved from gas to electrical. Last point, scalability: I added 4 more panels last year with same type of microinverter, no changes in installation besides adding the new group to the app control. I don’t know how it works to add panels with a centralized system. I did this because I got an EV as a company car, and now I save also on fuel. Best investment in my life, no taxes for the savings (I pay less tax now I my utilities are reduced), and continuous cash flow that will help a lot when I retire.
A very interseting test was done in Europe over a period of 1 year comparing a string inverter with both optimisers and and microinverters featuring real world typical shading (not heavy shading). The result was that there was so little advantage to either optimisers or micro inverters (like 2 or 3%) that you were better off just making up the difference with an extra panel or 2 which was more cost effective. In a heavily shaded scenario there may be a place for these technologies, but once again, they're expensive. A couple of issues with micro inverters : you lose flexibility that you might have with a DC system. ie - you could directly charge a home battery with a DC -DC coverter rather than going DC - AC - DC and if one des fail in the middle of a panel group it involves getting a technician on the roof, lifting panels and replacing the unit.
Yes I have read about that test and you are very right, with no much shade, its best to just remove possible points of failure all together.
I also agree with lack of flexibility if using micros when it comes to future battery retrofit.
\Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience on this.
Great video and terrific testing, your customers are very blessed to have an awesome business owner that actually has tested the systems and can recommend the best solution for their needs, keep up the great work you are doing
Thank you so much for saying that. I really really appreciate it. :)
Finally, REAL shade testing! (Like from a nearby tree, chimney, or building, etc.) that STILL allows indirect sky light to reach the shaded cells. Guessing this is a first on all of youtube... Well done.\
Thank you so so much! 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
EEVBlog got hammered by the coax cable from his roof antenna. in the afternoon sun.
@@robertsmith2956EEVblog’s shading issue was without optimizers. That’s exactly the problem optimizers try to solve - and judging by the results in this video, it seems to do it very well
Thanks for all the effort you are putting into your videos to make it digestible. These tests could be boring but you make it very entertaining! Thanks again Martyna.
I am so happy you said that. Thank you so very much for the kind words. I was honestly worried they will be so boring. Next time maybe add a joke here or there or funny facts or sth. :)
Been waiting for part 2 of your test. Thanks.
So glad! Thank you for leaving a comment 🙌🏼
Thanks for this highly informative and straight to the point video. Please keep them coming. Nice athletic moves too.
Thank you for watching and also leaving a comment. People don’t realize how helpful it is with the UA-cam Gods 😂🤍
Great testing, thanks for doing this. As an early adopter of Enphase, I really like seeing the data. If I was going to do a system today, I would go with tigo and SolArk, with at least a small battery to allow solar to be used in grid downtime. Thanks again for your great videos!
Thank you for sharing! How long ago did you go solar?;) if you don’t mind me asking?
@@solartimeusa I went solar in 2010, with 18 solar world 245 W, mono panels and Enphase D-380 micro. All the D-380s have been replaced under warranty in the last 5 years. Enphase was very good with warranty, I replaced myself, so no cost to me. Replacement micro look like IQ-7, but de-rated to 190, with firmware that is compatible with my Early Envoy.
@@dickthompson8018 My story is almost the same as yours except my first array was installed in 2012 using M215 micros and I have replaced 4 of those. Like you I like what Sol Ark has to offer. If I add storage I will likely go with Sol Ark and possibly Togo
The thing that strikes me as weird, is the changing relative outputs between the two test setups (considering only the unshaded panels). And the changing efficiency of the string inverter. At first I thought it might be temperature. That is, as the optimizers warm up they produce less, but later they were back to beating the microinverters. And at one point the string inverter was 95% efficient, and the very next test it dropped to 84%, but later bounced back to 93%.
I wondered what sort of load you used, and concluded the simplest and most accurate would be to simply dump all your power to the grid. It doesn't matter if you're dumping 1KW or 3KW (per test setup), the grid voltage should hardly change. So it really comes down to how much the inverter (micro or string) _wants_ to dump onto the grid. Which is a little like an MPPT circuit hunting for the optimal mix of voltage and current to maximize output power of the panel. In the inverter''s case, they might output 239 VAC, 240 VAC, or 241 VAC, and that 0.4% change in target voltage can make a much bigger difference in output current (maybe as much as 5%), which could totally account for the ping-pong performance difference between the two test setups.
So perhaps the overall power output difference (because it's so close) is irrelevant. The interesting result is the effect of shading panels on both systems, which also seems close enough to be largely irrelevant. The conclusion I come to is, buy which ever one you want. They're both good.
Hey Scotty, so true and I was also very suprised by the change in the DC to AC conversion. I so wish we could see the DC input of the microinverters, and compare to the AC output. Most major inverters whether string or micro, are similar in the efficiency so its very interesting to see those difference.
Just like you concluded, at the end of the day, the homeowner has to decide, since they are both very good! :) Thanks so much for leaving a comment!!! :)
Oh what a change to see such a good, simple and well expressed trial. Thank you.
Thank you so much for being so kind and leaving a positive comment ! :) I so appreciate it!
Would be interesting to see individual output of each one of them under cold and hot conditions.
Good idea! Need to test this winter a lot and then we can compare with summer 100+ temps!
Another great video! It would be important to include a failure rate analysis of both products. This is a big factor for most installers. I worked for Fronius and now work as an Application Engineer for Enphase. At Fronius, we paired the inverter with a Tigo optimizer, and the feedback from installers said the failure rate was higher than other products they installed. Working at Enphase, I don't really hear about any major issues. Once in a blue moon, I do hear that a surge from the grid can cause the microinverters to fail. I would like to get your feedback. I love your videos, keep them coming.
Thank you for sharing! Yes I definitely want to do a video on failure points. It would be interesting to see, especially with Hoymiles making a big entrance.... :D I would go Enphase over any micro anyday, but personally I am more of a string inverter type a gal :D
Thank you for sharing your history in Solar
To me the value of Enphase isn’t a slightly better or worse production. It has to do with no single point of failure and proven reliability no other inverter option can touch. Great video!!!!
@@macmierzwa5361 the 5 year warranty is because of the envoy potentially having compatibility issues in the future and Enphase not wanting to be on the hook to create a whole new component to communicate with future wifi or cell signals we currently don’t use. The other aspect is simply the combiner box which you can use a generic sub panel instead if you’d like. When the was the last time a normal electrical panel failed on your watch? I’ve literally never seen an Enphase combiner fail in 7 years
As long as a micro-inverter in the centre of an array doesn't fail and you have to remove many panels to get to the dead inverter. It happened to our neighbour. Absolutely dead unlucky, but it goes to show that whatever can go wrong, will go wrong, with the most inconvenience possible...
Had Enphase inverters installed in 2014. Currently running with 5 dead inverters. Even though Enphase will warranty the inverters, the cost of removing my panel array to identify which ones have failed is simply not worth it. I had 3 systems installed at the same time, 28 panel systems, on 3 different houses. All 3 systems have experienced similar issues. I was gun-ho on Enphase in the beginning, not so much now.
@@meko1896removing the panel is like a 3 minute job for a contractor. They could be in n out within an hour and 5 new micros installed
@@meko1896hi, I’m not very experienced. Just wondering why you’re not able to identify the failed micro inverter in the monitoring app?
Just want to say THANK YOU for ALL THIS WORK , amazing testing.
THANK YOU for being so kind and leaving a comment!
I think these tests, and analysis were excellent. thank you so much, I would give you all an A+
I so appreciate you leaving a comment! Thanks again!
Looks awesome to see testing videos like this. Thanks for making videos on solar.
Thank you so much for taking the time to leave a comment, it means so much to me! :)
Thank you Martyna for describing by conducting different tests and arriving at concrete results to decide which may work best in a given situation. I will watch this clip again and again and highly recommend to individual(s) who may have doubts in their heads on deciding which system to go for....By the way that athletic flip was hilarious.
Thank you so much for leaving a comment, I am so glad the test was helpful! :)
In my case I simply paralleled the panels in the attic and ran heavy DC to a central inverter. Less trouble, works great.
Thank you for sharing and leaving a comment! :)
Thank you for sharing and leaving a comment! :)
Thank you for the testing. Most of my experience is with solar panels on conversion vans so relatively smaller systems. I didn't realize that optimizers could help so much with shading challenges
Thank you for leaving a comment, and sharing. :) Appreciate it so much!
I thought you did a wonderful job! I was also pleasantly surprised that you compared the cost of both systems in the end as well. It appears that the greater efficiency of EnPhase won't recoup the extra cost over the life of the system.
A thorough, informative video, thank-you Martyna.. Reading about the effects of partially obscuring panels and the effect this has on the different inverter configurations is interesting, academically, but seeing it done helps cement the ideas at play. Plus, your cartwheel was an unexpected little treat.. Keep up the good work..
Thank you so much for leaving your thoughts and sharing. I am sure I could have done this test in different ways or speak about it differently but I hope its a step into the right direction for good product testing. :)
Thank you so much for leaving your thoughts and sharing. I am sure I could have done this test in different ways or speak about it differently but I hope its a step into the right direction for good product testing. :)
A brilliant test and great, very clear video with clear easy to understand graphics, thank you!
I have an East/West roof and will fit panels in each direction but a sizeable chimney in the middle to one side (Victorian house) so will have varying amounts of shading over different panels throughout the day!
Very interesting!
I am so so glad!!! Thank you for leaving a comment!
Good explanation. Appreciate your practical and evidence based approach. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful and thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. So appreciated!
Great and methodical testing! It looks though that at 10 AM there was still a bit of shading from the building behind on the Enphase side.
This was very enlightening. Thank you.
Very informative and helpful video! Thank you so much!
You are so welcome! :)
It would be nice to also have seen a full day of non-shaded production. I get the feeling the micro inverter may have performed at least 10% better over the course of the entire day. But i think you are right in your summary in that it really depends on your situation and needs.
Excellent comparison video. Easy enough to understand.
As an electrical engineer, I REALLY appreciate real world testing. This is first time I've seen any comparison video for solar panels. While I would have loved to see better numerical comparison when comparing AC to DC output for individual panels versus an entire set of panels, the point is not difficult to glean.
If you haven't already planned it, I'd love to see the same comparison for batteries; that would be awesome!
Check out neo Volta. I had the 24K installed and it runs my whole house except for the central AC which I keep on the grid because it sucks too much electricity anyway. But I installed 110 volt mini split if there ever was an outage on the grid.
Very conclusive, and illustrating test.
Thanks.
Thank you so much for watching!
Fantastic video. My system was installed in 2016. There was no such comparison video back in 2016 when I was choosing between Tigo and Enphase. I ended up choosing Tigo and, seeing the results of the video now, I think I made the right choice. I currently own stocks in both companies.
Thank you for sharing and yes I do too! :) Tough times in solar industry now but it will come back up!
Great video and the testing was very intensive. I have the Solar Edge optimizers installed just a couple of days as I realised later but I think overall with a power production guarantee for 25 years from almost every solar company, it may not be a big difference.
I will be testing SolarEdge against Microinverters soon, but you are correct! The difference is so small, I really don't think you should regret anything, and especially if shading is not even an issue. You should feel good! I like customer service with SolarEdge, they make it really easy to replace faulty units, and are pretty quick about it too!
Thanks for the great video!
You mention another video comparing optimizers vs non-optimizer systems, but I could not find it...
Hi so sorry let me see if I can share the link here, its for a video about shading on my channel.
ua-cam.com/video/Ur1HXsx09Jw/v-deo.html
Title: REAL Shading TEST ! How much does Shade kill your Solar Production?
Hi... From Malaysia with love 😀 Thanks for the great effort.
Thank you too! :)!!!!!
Love your experiments and am looking forward to the other testing mentioned in your replies. I've DIY installed two 4.5k systems on my south facing roof with minor shading. One system is a SolarEdge 3800 and the other is Enphase IQ8m's. Surprised that the Solar Edge has consistently out performed Enphase day in and day out by a solid 5%. It will be interesting to see how your test goes.
Oh wow! Thank you so much for sharing!
This is very interesting! What type of panels did you use if you don’t mind me asking?
The great thing is that this truly depends on so many factors!
Thank you again for sharing!
The SolarEdge install has (14) Canadian Solar cs1k325's. It's almost 5 years old . The Enphase install uses (8) rec365aa's and (4) rec395aa's, it's not quite 2 years old. To tell you the truth, the reason I have this setup is that I was in the process of completely converting to Enphase, but with the performance issue with Enphase I've decided to go a different direction. I'll be adding whole house battery backup and V2H EV charging in the next year or so and right now I'm leaning towards a Sol-Ark 15 with their new optimizers - we'll see.@@solartimeusa
Good video! Test 11 is more relevant than the other tests which used leaves and cardboard. In real life, panels never see full shading that the cardboard presents, diffused shading from chimneys, vent pipes, trees, and structures is what we actually experience.
Great video!
I had no idea about solar in 2015!
I got a system with
SMA Tripower AND TIGO Optimizers MM-2ES75 for ALL modules.
I am so happy since 2015 - NOR the SMA - NOR any Tigo had any fault till current time and contine to work geat!
Thank you so so much for sharing!!! I am so so happy you are happy!!
Cool video with a good effort on testing! Could you test panel mounting orientations? I am especially interested in northern hemisphere winter conditions and the vertical mounting style like on a wall.
That’s fascinating! Thank you.
THANK YOU for being so kind and leaving a comment! :)
WONDERFUL TEST!
DEF EARNED THE SUBSCRIBE!
This (and also your last video on shading tests) is just fantastic - thank you! 😃
Thank YOU Gary! Your UA-cam is so inspiring as well! Thank you for all the work you do.
Bravo.
Excellent analysis and straight to the point.
From power output to MONEY output.
I just SUBSCRIBED to your channel.
Great job with the comparisons!
Thank you so much :)
Your test solidified my choice for SolarEdge Power Optimizers and the string inverter. The difference in cost compared to my neighbors who went with Enphase and micro-inverters is so drastically different I try not to tell them my actual cost....
Thanks for the analysis 😊
Thank you so much for the comment :)
Lots of efforts to put together two solar inverter systems and carry on the experiments. Thank you for making this comparison video. Also conclusion is also very clear. If during a day shadows come and go on the solar panels, go with micro inverters. If there are no shadow issues, go with one central one inverter and save some money on the equipment. Also get more power in caparison, since no shadow issues.
Thank you so much for leaving the comment :) I so appreciate it!!!
21:15 - New sub here, I think you did a great job explaining these two systems. Very well done and fun! Thank you 😊
Aww! Thank you so much!
Super test Pani Martyno!
Bardzo dziekuje!!! :)
Great testing, it's likely the most truthfull in the industry keep up with the good work. I have a strong belief in no shading for a roof and a simple layout string inverter all the way. If the roof is chopped up or shaded micro is worth it, and we use AP systems. Finally if it is a ground mounted we only use bifacial panels with string inverters and no MLPE at all.
Nice tests, and good info.
Thank you so much for leaving a comment! I’m glad you liked the video! :)
Thank you for this brilliant experiment. I have Enphase and I’m happy with the microinverters, but the cost was more.
Would be great to see how the iq8+ compares to the iq8a on the 400w panels
Thats a future test for sure! Thank you so much for leaving a comment and hopefully you will stay for future videos/tests :)!!!
Happy producing!
@@solartimeusa This was 3 months ago and still no test between the iq8+ and iq8a. I don't know the difference but I think that the plus can be used with more powerful panels.
thanks so much for confirming my hunch !!!! i've got a 70ft white pine shadow that transits my site
Hi, thank you for another great video. I like very much your approach and at min 19:49 you show that Enphase has produce 3 to 3.5% energy. What is also interesting to take into account is when you have battery storage. Enphase will have more current conversion than if you have a DC coupled with Tigo. At the end it would be interesting to see what you get out of your batteries.
That battery storage thinking peaks my interest and i would love to test it like that to see if the results would change!
@@solartimeusa looking forward to this video :) Keep up the good work
This is exactly what I am wondering. Especially for an off grid system that is mostly DC anyway, avoiding those conversion loss's is a big thing.
The one time I see the micro inverters as a plus is a grid tie system that does not have battery storage.
From all of the research I have done, any system with battery storage in it is better off with optimizers over micro inverters. DC-DC charging efficiency is almost always higher than AC-DC.
With solar getting more "common" I hope to see more DC appliance options. There are already DC refrigerators/freezers available, as well as ceiling fans.
POE systems are ripe for running off of a 48V solar battery system. That can currently cover lighting, some TV's, a lot of security systems, as well as ports for all sorts of usb devices.
Large loads are really the only problem area right now for taking a house completely DC.
I am also very interested in building sciences, and believe we have the technology, RIGHT NOW, to be fully capable of building houses that are self sufficient from an energy standpoint, at a reasonable cost compared to current minimum code compliant standards. The biggest problem is convincing people to NOT do the same old thing, but instead do it better.
having 10kw solar edge with optimiser , plus dc SolarEdge battery installed next week
To achieve this exact goal
Great video. Would love to have a searchable title such as Tigo vs. Enphase, or something to make it easier to find based on your other video. Was looking for this for a long time.
Thank you so much for giving that idea, just updated it. Thank you again! :)
Thank You for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤
As a avid tenter the most important is battery tech so or more videos you test between using different battery tech to see what is the best/and cheapest batteries to use in their systems!
Super Vergleich! Danke!
Bitte Schon!
Such a good test! Thanks for sharing for free :)
You are so welcome! Thank you so much for the kind comment 🤞🏻🙏
Great experiments. Thanks! My understanding is Microinverters have a 25 year warrenty, and regular string inverters a 10 year warrenty. Figuring in the need to have to replace the string inverter at least once or twice over the 25 year warrenty on most solar panels (plus installation of it), and the roughly 3% more production of microinverters, the microinverters seem the most long term cost effective solution.
Spoko test. Wezmę go pod uwagę. Właśnie przymierzam się do małego systemu. Dziękuję.
Bardzo prosze, dziekuje za komentarz i pozdrawiam! :)
I find the pinging (sound) annoying.
A different sound would probably solve that weird ping 😅
I didn’t even notice any pinging sound
We have 48x400 W panels on our roof. Feeding into a Sol-Ark 15kW unit. We have not gone with any optimizers since the panels are mostly on the second story roof and unshaded by trees. That being said, one string of eight is often shaded by a chimney stack, blocking its production for much of the day. It may be better to move a portion of those panels to the adjacent rough surface to eliminate the chimney shading. That being said, we still produce over 15 KW when the sun is mostly overhead. Enough to meet our needs by far. I think one also has to look at the additional failure points by adding an optimizer to each panel. Pros and cons. Good video.
Hey! Thank you for sharing your system set up, and yeah you are very right, avoiding those extra points of failure is a good way to go. If you are happy with your system output, that's what matters. anyone can always say:" It COULD be better. BUT its great as is and you're happy with it. :)
I love Sol-Arks!
Hey Martyna, you're a natural in front of the camera, I really like these tests, and I don't think you can beat a basic string inverter without optimisers for simplicity, you may lose a tiny bit of production, but for me the less electronics up there the better. PS You can do cartwheels any time you like LOL !!!
Hey Andy, Thank you so much for leaving a comment, I really really appreciate any support! And I am 100% on the same page as you as far as the string inverter goes! :)
thanks for doing and sharing!
Thank you for being cool and leaving a comment!
One consideration for some may be that micro inverters are subject to EMP destruction (whether natural or anthropogenic) while the all DC PV PNL systems are robust with respect to EMP. Centralized AC inversion within the building structure may of course be remotely shielded.
The case for AC of course is made where long cable runs from the PV PNL’s are required where DC I squared R losses become significant. Philosophically I favor maximizing DC thru out the house both for DC reliability and electrical efficiency. This is why Auto, Marine, Aircraft, and electronics utilize predominantly DC. Where AC is required over distance and for AC appliances one must accept the inefficiency of conversion. With AC comes both efficiency losses of conversion and parasitic losses of maintaining inverters operating in standby w/o being loaded. These losses in turn must be alleviated with more PV PNL’s and larger batteries.
Martyna, Thanks for empirical testing instead of biased sales pitches. 👍t
Fantastic work - thx!
Thank you so much, and thank you for leaving a comment as well :)
Hi Martyna,
I really like your channel and I appreciate the trouble you go to in building your experiments and I find your information to be really valuable as a technical person.
I’m a mature age Electrical Engineering Student and Inventor from Brisbane, Queensland, Australia.🇦🇺 🏖️
So I’m in the ‘Sunshine State’ like Florida or Texas although we do still get some very cloudy days.
I’m planning on specialising in renewable energy as well as electrical safety devices.
My question is how much does the VOC string voltage affect power output on rainy cloudy days as that’s when my current system struggles to get the battery bank charged in addition to supplying the loads.
I started with a 3KW PV array and I now have a 6KW PV array (12x Trina 510W) which performs far better than previously.
My array is coupled to a Fronius Primo 5.0-1 PV inverter which is then AC coupled to a Victron Multiplus 2 5KW inverter/charger and a 10KW Pylontech lithium battery bank (3x US3000C LiFePo4 48V)
My PV Inverter has a max VOC of 1000V and my current PV array has a VOC of ~600V.
I’m considering adding another 6 panels to give me a VOC of ~900V.
Given my mppt range is 240-800V
I gather that increasing my VOC string voltage will not just increase my output by a third but maybe somewhat more than that by hopefully getting into the mppt range even in really poor conditions.
Is that correct?
Do you know of a method of calculating this?
Also as I’m an inventor do you happen to know of any product on the market that protects solar panels from hail?
I’m looking at developing an invention that protects solar panels from large and giant hail so I’m trying to see if there is any competition but I really can’t find a single one.
We get some really crazy storms here so that’s why I started looking into it.
Have a really great day.
Regards,
Shanon.
Maybe a bit different but would like to Tigo vs Victron energy MPPT controller video.
What do I think? I'm a Brit and your description of a "cloudy" sky is our version of a bright sunny summers day.😂 Secondly the amount of panels you guys can fit on your roofs is probably almost three times more than a lot of houses here.😂
Joking aside, thanks for a brilliant experiment it really helped explain the actual differences between micro-inverters and optimisers rather than the technical ones. After all what is most important to a home owner, how efficient it makes your panels or how they work and why they do what yhey do? Simply how efficient they make the panels in comparison to how much they cost is what we need to know.
A very interesting comparison, thank you.
It is worth noting that the Enphase system does not have a single point of failure. A dead Enphase inverter will stop production for one panel while a dead optimiser or central inverter will take down the whole system.
A comparison of cabling cost from the roof the central inverter/combiner box would be interesting. AC cabling is mass produced while high voltage DC cabling is more specialised.
It would be interesting to compare the AC power reported by the systems with a 3rd party meter.
Nice comparison, I live in Estonia and get completely different results and the Microinverters are working only from April to September.
You should repeat this test in Ohio in a winter month and you get complete different real life results
I definitely want to do repeat of this test and test other situations as well. Thank you for the ideas :)!!!
@@solartimeusa
I am waiting for it. Texas // Ohio
Have a nice day and happy continuing
Thanks for the informative video. My first thought was to say that a great deal of difference would be seen if you have to place your panel array further from your house. For the string system you would either have to run expensive wire to carry the DC to the house inverter or you would suffer loss. The Microinverters would be much less susceptible to loss since AC can travel further on thinner wire without as much loss (which is why our grid is AC). Your testing of both arrays being adjacent to your building eliminated this from the equation. In my case the array will be about 100 feet from the house.
Honestly, unless you have panels under obvious shade or facing different directions, ditch both micro-inverters and optimisers! These days as panel costs continue to fall, just spend money on another panel. The one trick is to ensure you keep the panel string at as close as possible to the maximum string voltage your inverter can handle, ie max in series, because resistive losses go up with the square of the current, so a system at 100V and 20A is going to have four times more loss than one at 200V and 10A.
In a real system no way are the costs of either device shown ever going to pay back imo. Getting hung up on trying to maximise capture energy is fairly pointless unless you have already used absolutely every single square foot of your available collection area and already have the highest efficiency panels covering that area. IME i'd also suggest that if you have a roof mounted system, you try to keep as much as possible off the roof, because any failure then requires expensive labour to repair it, wiping out any saving for years to come.
Finally, this test,a lhtough very interesting, really isn't actually scientific enough to be able to truly understand the differences in the systems. You need to add additional, traceable / calibrated current and voltage measurements at key points so you can
1) get a traceable power figure to a known accuracy level (you have no idea about the relative or absolute accuracy on the devices internal power measurements)
2) Seperate the capture efficiencies of the panels from the transfer efficiency of the solar network and conversion efficiency(s) of the interter(s)
3) Carry out an A-B-A type test to ensure your are not introducing systematic errors and offsets into your measurement setup
For example, you suggest an overall ~3% difference in collection efficiency between the systems, how do you know this isn't due to the panels used? (A-B-A test required for the panel banks) Solar panels typically havetollerances that sit at +-5% or more, and inverter power measurement is likely to also be +-2% typically, and that measurement offset is non-linear because power is volts x amps, and both change depending on the insolation experienced, and the MPPT operation point.
Very interesting, well done tests ! It looks like the inverter (on the optimizers setup) has huge losses when power is high, what do you think ? Or is energy lost in the cables ?
Thx a lot for testing the architecture of the panels by shading them. As one can see the diodes are working as intended.
Simple question: what's going to fail most likely, the panel or the electronics?
Hence, simple rule, do not build an electronic box per panel on the roof!
EXACTLY! Thanks for that comment!
Thanks for the video - great testing. I do have a couple comments, though. It looks like there may have been some shading that wasn't yours. In the morning the values on the unshaded panels tended to be higher on the Tigo side and in the afternoon they were higher on the enphase side. That seemed to impact your numbers. The panel next to the panel with the small chimney shadow was lower when you were testing, which you noted, but this indicated a shadow from another source (like a cloud), because in the next test, that same panel next to the small chimney shaded panel was back to the value for the unshaded panels. Obviously this is hard to control for, but it just means these tests are approximate at best. Again, though, I do think this is great info.
Hi Martyna, love your videos! Thank you so much for conducting such great real life & head to head experiments.
Two questions:
1) it seemed like you had pretty significant DC to AC conversion losses on the Tigo/SMA side (10%?). Is that typical or were your AC CT readings a little off?
2) Enphase used to have a lot of reliability issues (compared to Solar Edge for example). But then Solar Edge seemed to have A LOT of problems with their HD series inverters.
Comments/thoughts on equipment reliability (as an installer) in 2023?
Lots of innovation on the Enphase side. Of course it’s not cheap.
Thanks again!
Jonathan
12.2kW Panasonic / 11.2kW SolarEdge installed in 1997.
Hey!!!
Yes so next test will be Enphase Against SolarEdge.
I was personally a bit surprised too at the losses from the conversions. Too bad we can see the DC input on the micros, along with the AC output. That would be interesting to see considering most inverters vether string or micro have similar efficiency ratings.
As far as reliability with ENphase, I got burnt years ago, so I am not too trusting of any microinverter, but to be frank, I have not experience a whole lot of replacements in the past 2-3 years, so they must have improved something! :)
SolarEdge seems to have a bit more issues, but they ALWAYS replace faulty units and even provide labor reimbursement, which Enphase does not have. I have had a lot of homeowners who bought a home with a pre-existing system, that was SolarEdge, and with no problem they transferred the product ownership to the new homeowner, and all warranty replacements went pretty smooth. So there are pros and cons to both...:)
As far as my preference.... I have to be super honest here. String inverter any day.... :(
I am very trusting of SMA, even though they aren't as popular... they are made in Germany, and myself growing up in EU, I trust the quality of those products way more than anything made elsewhere. But that could be my Polish-ness talking.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts here, I so appreciate it!
Martyna
@@solartimeusa This is a very time consuming test and thanks for doing all that. I was wondering if you can redo only a small subset of the test with Tigo + Fronius inverter, the reason I am asking is that their global maximum point tracking system algorithm is different and in some complicated shade scenarios might produce a different result. Would love to see this but I understand this takes a lot of time and energy to do so.
I have Tigo and SMA and I can confirm that depending on weather conditions you will have around a 5-10% loss in the conversion. You will have less loss on sunny days. For instance I had a day with 98 kwh produced DC and 94 kwh AC. On the cloudy day i had 7.4 kwh DC and 6.6 kwh AC. I don't think her test accounted for the AC losses on the Enphase system as her results were from the micro-inverters not any down line CT's like the optimizers.
Can you provide a link to the first video you referenced comparing the shading effects of Optimizers vs String Inverters?
Can't seem to find it!
Your testing is easy to follow and understand. I would like to have seen a no shade at all daily total
Thank you so much! I will be doing lots more testing soon. :)
It looks like neither system is a clear winner nor loser. It depends how much shadow can fall on your panels. De difference in installation costs is huge. But if you live in a place with many clouds, trees, buildings etc, over time the cheaper optimizer system might be more expensive. But if you add one or two more panels, it wouldn't make such a difference in initial costs and they could catch up with current lost in shady times.
I'm still learning and try to understand, before i decide to start with a system. Thanks for this video, it helped a lot.
epic comparison thanks.
Thanks! :)
Very good testing and thanks for the effort. I would have to agree with the commenters that note that the most reliable system is string inverters with no electronics on the roof. There are some rooftops that just simply aren’t worth installing solar on if there is too much shading. I’m a big believer of the fewest points of failure being the best method to creating a reliable system with a good return on investment. The big thing is that each string of solar panels must have a separate MPPT channel. Keep in mind that a single solar panel is simply a string of solar cells, a string of solar panels is just a longer string of solar cells.
I think there is one important factor that has been overlooked, and that is data lag on portals. I have seen that often where in fact, it makes comparing devices in real time pretty much impossible, add to this partially overcast days, such as was used for the testing, and that can lead to some pretty unpredictable results I think, as some other commenters have identified. Even within the system not every single device will be uploading data exactly in sync . We have been doing solar installations for quite a number of years. We have always tried to design systems with the least point of failure. We also maintain solar systems and repair those installed by other installers that have Come and gone long ago. For the most part, I believe optimizers and micro inverters are used to replace proper system, design and planning. Those systems are by far the ones that we do the most work on and that owners incur the largest cost for maintenance. We have string inverters systems That have never needed to be touched once even after 15 years of operation.
I love your tests! In your replies to some of the comments for this video, you hinted at two upcoming tests: (1) solaredge vs enphase, and (2) comparison of production of solar panel brands. Do you have an estimate for when those videos will appear? Thanks again.
Just waiting for a bit better weather, we have had a pretty cold winter week in Texas :D Please dont loose patience with me!
good test , hope to see more
Definitely working on new tests to come out this summer!
Great content. Thank you
THANK YOU!!!:)
Great test!
Thank you for leaving a comment! Really appreciate it 🙏
The SMA / Tigo system is cheaper but they don’t offer 25 year warranty as Enphase. During that time you will have to replace the string inverter of SMA and maybe some optimizers and after that it becomes the more expensive system in addition to being more tedious. Also it will not produce electricity during replacement time. If one Enphase micro brakes down the system will continue to produce electricity.
Tigo has a 25 year Optimizer warranty. SMA 5-10-20 year warranty on inverters.
@@macmierzwa5361 for what it’s worth, my local library has 2 “Sunpower” string inverters, made by SMA I think, still working fine since 2008.
@@macmierzwa5361 It’s the string inverter that will fail long before 20 years whether it’s an SMA, Solaredge, Fronius etc. In real life however, it has most likely had to be changed for a bigger string inverter after 10 years when adding some more panels. Something, which is not required with microinverters.
I'm not 100% sure but it's most likely that the optimizer modules have built-in bypass diodes. If the main circuitry fails the rest of the string will still function.
@@eDoc2020 I think you are right. If one optimizer fails you will be fine (whole system is not down). It’s the string inverter that is the bottle neck / risk point.
Very interesting. I guess there is a crossover point where the Enphase may be cheaper, since you have a big central box in the string inverter case. I'm not a fan of optimizers because of the added complexity and cost, but microinverters add to the benefits of optimizers by removing the amount of hvdc cables routed around the house, and they have excellent warranty too.
And adding a suggestion: you should test one shading condition at time.
The way you did you'll always have a dominant condition that will have the biggest impact.
As we cannot compare directly DC vs AC, it's hard to understand the final AC output result.
Love your channel!!!
So glad, thank you so so much for leaving a comment! :)
Great video Martyna, question : if I’ve got a few panels partially shaded each day. Can I add optimizers to just those few panels and improve my entire array’s performance?
You sure can. Those can work independently, very popular solution in EU. Are you located in USA or other country ?
Very nice Video!
When it comes to safety Micro-inverters may be better as the TIGO's always let the high DC Voltage thru.
There are however "Huawei" and "Solaredge" Optimizers that don't output Voltage unless the Inverter is active!
With the TIGO's I would only put them on the panels which are expected to be shaded.
(trees, chimneys and overhead power lines etc...)
Hi I am from India. Thank you so much for giving us a different perspective of solar inverters.
Thank you so much for watching! :)!!!
One more aspect to discuss and possibly test is the power loss difference between DC and AC power running along possibly long wires, from one side of the roof to the (SMA or SolarEdge) String Inverter (for DC) or the IQ Combiner box (for AC).
Why understanding is that running DC power along 50-100 feet of wire might incur sugnificent power losses, which is not the case with AC power, which makes the conversion from DC to AC closer to the module a better choice.
What are your thoughts about that?
This field test didn't really test that, since all the wires are very short, which will not be the case in real-life applications, when the panels are spread along the roof area(s) running long wires from the Tigo (or SolarEdge) Power-Optimizers and Enphase Micro-Inverters.
If we talk about efficiency we should get rid of AC. We don't really need that anymore. So DC only and high voltage to avoid voltage drops and more wires/copper. The only issue with this is the safety which now can be even more secure with FMPS (Class 4) which could allows to wire all the house only with DC (360-400V) and having only one conversion to our electronics (low voltage DC appliances). Hope manufactures will provide this solution soon ;)
Seven words that make algorithms love You.
are....? :)
Enphase on my roof-mounted grid-tied system, TIGO on my "off-grid" system which is perfectly pitched for my latitude and has no shading.