@@GaryDoesSolar I was one of the first to get it end of summer last year and still haven't seen any decent coverage of it. I hope to see any real life cover of people with the tariff, But I have saved so much money.
@@grantmidd Yeah, I guess that the tariff is not easy to comprehend when people first come across it - and of course, that might make people shy away from it. Hopefully my video will shine a little light on what I think is an innovative new approach.
Gary, these 2 tarrifs have been on my mind for a while so thank you for your informative content. As an installer I can see my customers energy usage and your content helps me to guide them through the mine field of tarrifs, when to charge and discharge, saving sessions etc... one things for sure there's not a one size fits all scenario for my customers so thank you for your valuable contribution to the eco warriors.
Thanks for your video, it convinced me to change although I wasn't impressed with the time it took for Octopus to action things even though I'd been on Flux already. I live in Suffolk and unlike many other counties we benefit from "Power Ups". I am presuming that Octopus blend this in to their automations. It's day 1 and we have free electricity from 11am-2pm today - WHOOP!
Wow - I hope we can get power ups in Oxfordshire, where I live! That said, I'm on Agile at the moment it's free much free electricity all day tomorrow :-)
Hi Martin, you're most welcome - I'm very happy to hear that they're useful to you. And that was very kind of you to think of me with the referral code - thank you! :-)
Perfect timing for this video, Gary! I'm having a GivEnergy 9.5kWh battery and 5kW inverter installed in 2 weeks and was undecided on which tariff to start on. I'm still not sure, but much better informed now! That off-peak export rate is very tempting as my array should produce about 30-40% more than my annual usage. Plus, I think the idea of a VPP is very cool...
Excellent stuff! I think we're spoiled for choice with all the tariffs being offered by Octopus Energy, and although I was skeptical of IOF to begin with, I'm really liking what it's trying to achieve!
@@GaryDoesSolar another point that is brilliant about the parity in import/export rates, which you briefly touch on at 6:07 in the video, is that you don't have to worry about spreading out your off-peak usage throughout the day. I don't have to nag my family about having the kettle on at the same time as the oven, or the washing machine and the dryer at the same time - it's already been covered by the export. So not only do you flatten the annual curve, but you flatten the daily one as well. Practically this means a lot less micromanagement in the home, which is fantastic. Even if you are micromanaging, the lag time of the home battery is also negated with IOF, so something like an induction hob going on and off will draw a lot of power from the grid until the battery catches up. This only adds up to a few pence a day, but still would be saved for the perfectionists.
I went over to Intelligent Octopus Flux back in November. It certainly takes a bit of trust to give over total control to Octopus. The battery is charged to about 50-55% over night during winter. The rest is from the sun or off peak till 1600hrs when it will discharge to home and grid till 1900hrs. So you will always consume but gain during peak periods. Now that the equinox has past the night time charging has stopped and the battery is charged from the sun or grid as stated above. However what is noticeable is that even now in mid March the generation is beginning to overhaul the consumption, so I’m making some money. Roll on summer.😊
@@GaryDoesSolar Now, what about a wind turbine? Incidentally, if you have solar, any wind turbine could be turned "off", doubling their life span. (Also during daylight in the nesting season?!). Average wind speed here, M4 corridor, is a paltry 4.5m/s, but the average winter months are 6m/s, which is useful. There plenty of 100watt @ 6m/s turbines (2.4Kwh/day) for around £500 just needs the law changed to allow 6 of them on the roof. Fat chance. £3000 for 13.5kWh/day. Intelligent Octopus Flux would fix wind turbine intermittency, by being, as you say, a gigantic battery.
Hi there, I’ve just switched to the intelligent flux. It’s quite scary as I’ve been trying to build my winter buffer to avoid going into negative equity. In your view is it worth doing? Does it actually save money?
@@ianmarle8188 Simply yes. I’ve got 5kw solar array and a 3.6kw GivEnergy inverter with a 9.5kwh GivEnergy battery. We have had positive contributions since the above post. During the good months you should expect double the export value against import. When we first got the solar system we were on an Octopus fix so it did not suit to change. We are still learning ourselves but we came out of winter with a positive balance of about £800. Current monthly DD is £90, cut from £180 non solar. We will have a good balance for winter and will not worry about turning on the central heating. We saved about £1200 using the tariffs at the time. It does take a bit of getting used to with this tariff eg we are still discharging at 2030 regularly this summer. It does work but I will probably change to another tariff if I buy an EV.
@@ianmarle8188 Yes it does. In the good months I am getting double the cost of import. I don’t have an EV but if I do buy one in the future it would probably best to change tariffs.
Thank you very well explained. You make a good sales case for the tariff. I am now going away to think about what I should do. I think my small 5.2 Kwh battery is too small and Octopus want £ 1800.00 to add another one which might not work for me. Time to get my calculator out I think.
The conundrum that I am trying to work though is whether to stay on Agile and manually manage it myself or hand over control to this - I am keeping my average p/kWh
Well done, Gary, for an excellent series of videos - thank you. I was wondering if you might like to do something on automating the Agile tariff, perhaps looking at My Energy Optimiser, Wonder Watt, GivEnergy's Smart Tariff automation etc.
You're most welcome! Now, I've still to complete part 4 of my smart tariff strategies series - and this last part is on tracker tariffs. I'll certainly be covering the items you propose... :-)
I'm currently trying to change my export tariff with Octopus but you would not believe how hard their customer support are making it. And that is just one of the problems I am trying to sort out with them. I like the company but I'm rapidly loosing patience with their support staff.
Sorry to hear you're having issues with your account, John. If I ever have a problem, I usually communicate with Octopus via email (hello@octopus.energy) with a clear and concise explanation of the issue and my request, and they response well.
I had s very similar problem with the amount I was allowed to export taking them many months with them getting it wrong. It cost me a lot of money last summer. As of today, 8 months later, they still haven't got a bill right, and I still can't just download a correct bill from the app or site. Hopeless. They overcharged me by thinking I was on standard octopus, yet I was on Octopus Flux at one point, and Octopus Go on another, despite the App telling me they knew I was on these tariffs... Almost criminal. If i get much more grief I'll have to report them...
I agree 100% I’ve exported almost 750 kWh without recompense and am now told it will take 11 weeks in total before it’s sorted .. PATHETIC! To be clear I’m requesting an export mpan .
For NEM in Malaysia our energy company charges users ‘total imported energy + service tax (8%) + some other fees’, BEFORE refunding exported energy at a 1:1 tariff rate. Meaning even if you export the amount you import, you’d still be paying 8% ++. So, it’s still beneficial to consume as much of your own energy during the day. Granted, for most it’s not huge amounts, but it is noteworthy.
I find that many people overlook that you can export to the grid to store your energy, but when you import it back you are subject to VAT on the imported energy, thus incurring a loss.
Can you share example figures to support that? In the UK, the Intelligent Octopus Go tariff currently allows cheap import at 7p and all-day export at 15p, which is far greater than a 20% VAT differential.
Hey Gary, just signed up to Octopus and used your code, so hopefully you will get the £50 added. Many thanks for your advice and guidance. Much appreciated.
Gary - I just found your channel - and this particular video. It's very helpful - although I'm still a little overwhelmed at the moment - as I'm a solar newbie! My PV/battery installation was completed today - 11.4kW array and a 13.5kW GivEnergy battery. The estimated output from the installer (split over E, W and S facing roofs) is 9.2kWh per year.. We use between 7000 - 7500kWh per year and we have a well insulated home that is fully electric with a heat pump. We dont have an EV, and no plans for one just yet. Do you think Octopus Intelligent Flux would be worth starting with?
Hi Stuart, really happy to hear my channel has been helpful to you. Now, unfortunately, l'm not in a position to provide individual advice (not least because of potential liability issues, even if that advice is given free - such is the world today). You're best to speak to an installer for such advice, or post a comment onto a solar forum (for example, this one in the UK: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466). Good luck!
I think there is one limitation with the intelligent tariff, which is that most inverters are G98 and so are export limited, so although you may have a large solar array, that only counts in your favour if you can export the full generation (less your home usage). If you are limited to 3.68kW export then I don’t think this tariff will work for you.
@@GaryDoesSolar if it helps with your modelling, I have a hybrid inverter (LuxPower 3K6), with 7.7kw of slightly north east/south west facing and 5 Pylontech US2000C batteries set for 90% dod. So while the inverter is capable of 7kw peak solar generation, for that use case to be effective, you need to have batteries being charged and then the remainder can go to the house or export. I think that anyone with a hybrid inverter that allows a larger array size (good for winter generation) but is G.98 will not really benefit from intelligent flux. To be honest, when I got the solar in the first place, the installers didn’t even talk about G.98 vs G.99 or G.100, nor did they mention that a G.98 inverter has the consequence that your house load served from the inverter can only be 16A and I didn’t know any better otherwise I would have chosen a bigger inverter and a G.99 approval. The issue for me was that solar was new and although I have a degree in electrical engineering, there’s a lot of information to learn and although UA-cam channels such as yours are really helping to make the information more widely available, there was less available in 2021-2022. Let me know if you want any real generation data to compare your modelling with and I’m happy to share. At a high level last year was generation 6035 kWh, export to grid 1669kwh, consumption around 5556kwh (this figure will be a bit low due to some usage being on the non-grid side of the inverter (it has a UPS type capability that I use for boiler and wifi so they stay on in case of a power cut) and import from grid 2070kwh
Nice video as always, very clearly explained. Personally I prefer to be in control of my system and use Home Assistant to do basically what they're doing IMO more optimised to my own requirements not what octopus thinks is the best. Intelligent would seem to have the limitation of only making electricity "free" However with regular flux it feels like you it's easier to generate a profit by utilising the offer-peak import and peak-export. Did you switch to Agile in the end Gary?
Hi Rob, thanks for the great feedback! :-) Yeah, giving up control is not for everyone... I certainly know I made a LOT of profit last summer on Flux, but I'm going to be doing some in-depth modelling soon, to see what's best for me. I did switch to Agile after Flux (around November I think) and it's been very. very good! I use MyEnergyOptimiser to control my battery - to automatically select the cheapest slots to charge my battery to 100% overnight regardless of the weather. I can't fault the tariff at all.
Gary fantastic explanation. I have only just come across this video. I have only had my solar and battery system for just under a year (installed by Octopus). I have been monitoring the data over a year to get a feel of how the system works. I've avoided Intelligent Octopus Flux so far as I was not sure exactly how it operated. I'm currently on the Octopus Flux tariff. You mentioned in closing, that it's worth switching to intelligent at the start of summer. What about now? almost at the tail end of summer? Is it worth switching at this point in the year?
Thanks for your kind words! Now, you can switch to IOF at any time, but the problem with switching now is that you’ll not be able to build a buffer (like you would if you joined at the start of the summer) and that means you’ll be paying for import with little export to offset that. That said, if you’re planning to be on IOF long term (say a minimum of 2 years) then maybe just go for it… 👍🏻
I've been on Flux since mid 2022 & looking forwards, I can't say I'm best pleased with Octopus. My west facing array produces roughly 2500 kWh/year with 80% of this output in the 2nd & 3rd quarters of the year. My domestic demand is typically 2150 kWh/year, so like in your example, I'm a net exporter to the grid. Although the actual calculation is complex, my annual bill is the (negative) credit I get from my summer exports plus my standing charge. So from April 1st, Octopus have DECREASED my solar export price by 15% & INCREASED my standing charge by an eye watering 28%! I'm actually worse off. Thanks a bloody million Octopus!
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Did you mean mid-2023 as both Octopus Flux tariffs were launched only last year? And were/are you on Octopus Flux or Intelligent Octopus Flux? If the former, it's really only a summer tariff, so most people switch to something else (for example, I went over to Agile) over the winter. If you stayed on Octopus Flux throughout the winter, overall you'll likely have lost all the financial gain you achieved over the summer. If you don't fancy switching tariffs twice a year (and I could completely get that) then Intelligent Octopus Flux could work out best for you, for all the reasons I stated in my video. I agree with you about the standing charge increases - it's borderline criminal in my view as it penalises low energy users, including the elderly and vulnerable.
@@GaryDoesSolarSorry. Yes, it was mid-2023, not 2022 & it's standard Flux, not Intelligent Flux, as the newer tariff doesn't work with Growatt batteries yet. I did glean some benefit over the winter with Flux. I filled up my admittedly small 3.3 kWh battery between 2am & 5am & I reckon this saved me about 45 quid per winter. Sadly this saving is way too small to justify splashing out £1,500 on a second battery.
@@MrSensible2 Something you might want to try this year is staying with Octopus Flux until about mid October, then switch to Agile until end March 2025. It worked for me, certainly. And to get the best from Octopus Flux, you could set your battery to force-charge to 100% during the off-peak period (or at least as much as charge as 3 hours will give) then force-discharge during the peak period, leaving enough energy in the battery to get you through to the off-peak period the next day. See this video here that explains this in detail: ua-cam.com/video/dGpsN8-1Fx4/v-deo.html
@@GaryDoesSolar One of the hardest equations to solve is based on what you've said here - do you cram your battery full and then force-discharge it, or do you give your battery some limits and hope it lasts longer... It's very hard to be at the start of a technology (eg LifePO4) or a tariff (eg Octopus Intelligent Flux) and know whether you've optimised "this year's profits" against "needing replacements in 10 years time". My own strategy is that I live where there are power cuts - maybe 12 a year - because our village, although having underground electricity, is fed by overhead cables from the nearest town. So I need to keep enough in the battery that my work commitments (involving video lessons) are never compromised. All in all, it's clearly not a one-size-fits-all problem/solution. Nonetheless, I'm happy with Flux, and happy with your very clear explanation about Intelligent Flux and the world's biggest battery...
@@DerekHasted Thanks Derek, for your kind words. Yeah, it's not easy for anyone to determine which tariff(s) will be best for them, and how to get the best from their solar and battery installation. For me, it all comes down to have good data modelling, and that's why I'm spending a lot of time developing utilities on my Patreon 👍
Thanks, and yeah - I'm on Agile at the moment, and am deciding which tariff to do next. I'm not sure you can go wrong with Octopus tariffs in fact, whichever you choose :-)
great video. I am on Octopus Flux and have requested to go onto Intelligent Octopus Flux as I have the GivEnergy AllinOne battery. I have been waiting for weeks to move tariff so either they are inundated with people moving or something must be up.
@@GaryDoesSolar has anyone being able to move to this tariff? I have been in conversation with octopus for ages but the process of joining fails for me. I have all the updated apps, correct battery but still it doesn't move me to the new tariff
Hi Gary. Fantastic video! Thanks for explaining it so clearly. I wondered what your thoughts might be on joining IOF at this time of year as a brand new installation? I have just had a solar and battery system installed - went live 10th October and still waiting for my MPAN so I imagine my export will start sometime in November hopefully. I have an 8.8 kwp system with a 5 kw GivEnergy inverter and 5.2 kw GivEngery battery with an estimated annual output of 7006 kwh against an annual usage of approx 2330 kwh. I am a bit confused as to whether I should stick to Octopus Flux for now until the Spring for IOF or whether I would be better off going straight to IOF? I understand the idea of IOF is to build a surplus in the Summer to make up for the deficit of generation in the Winter, but I don’t currently have a surplus. What would your advice be for a new solar and battery system installed in the Winter?
Cheers Paul for your kind words. Personally, I wouldn’t change to IOF until March next year at the earliest, the reason being is that you’ll be accruing an energy bill from now until then, which you’ll only recover at the end of the summer. Many people including myself also consider OF as a summer-only tariff, but there’s no real harm staying on that over the winter, but personally, I’d use the opportunity to try out Agile. That way you’re building up experience of the various tariffs on offer so you can eventually determine which ones are best for your situation. And if you have an EV you would most likely always be better with a tariff like OG or better still, IOG. Hope that helps.
I am on the Agile tariff, and I have a passive house (PH) with a 17 tonne concrete slab within the thermal envelope, and so this provides huge 'thermal inertia'. The house is fully characterised, and I have a simple and fully automated control process using my own Node-Red code. Each night at 11 PM the UFH and HW demand for the coming 24 hr period based on weather forecast and current house / HW tank temperatures is calculated to determine total UFH and HW 'on time' needed; this is then scheduled for the N cheapest half-hour slots based on the next day's tariff. The whole house is run as a single zone at a fixed set point 24×7. Using the cheapest slots doesn't materially impact the internal temperatures, because of this thermal inertia. This all works well because I designed and built my house to work this way, but the characteristics of a true PH, a flawed implementation of a PH, a modern code-complaint build, an older leaky and poorly insulated traditional build are all vastly different. I am not sure how an energy supplier could implement a smart agile-aware control regime without a decent calibrated model of the house performance, and the occupants' comfort aims.
As I thought when Intelligent Flux was introduced. I think for solar and battery only, the best regime is Flux for the summer and Agile for the winter, with the spring change over coming very shortly.
I switched to Flux when I first heard about it. Then I tracked it comparing the the standard rate that non-Solar/battery users are on when, in November I decided it wasn't worth the bother. a couple of months ago I became aware that Agile was workable for me. I've just had the bill for the past month and discovered I've been paying an average of 12p per kW/h for import🙂 And no, we don't run white goods overnight. I stuck to the Fixed export rate of 15p. Your comment has just make me wonder if I should be considerering going back to Flux? Clearly I need to see the post-April 1st prices to make any sense of my options. Given how well Agile is working for me, I expect I'll stay. I observe that there's no mention of VAT which, of course is payable on Import but doesn't apply to export. Hence when Import & Export appear to have the same price they don't in reality.
My calculations now indicate that if I import at more than 11.25p kW/hr and export it later at 15p I'm losing money. This takes VAT and Import/Export loss (10%) into account. I'm using the Octopus Watch App to check for the best value import times, when convenient for me, in addition to those that already automated.
I had eco 7 through the winter as this gave a wider window of cheaper electric, I have one storage heater and an I boost, but timer use to heat water during winter time, this worked well but last month I moved to Flux but this ended up dearer in KW cost etc, I am now on agile and flux exsport, this is working well and at the time iof this I have have 4 hrs of zero cost and the exsport between 1600-1900 29p a KW, i love plunge prices, this week I have had two days of being paid back, not withdth standing the dreaded standing charge daily included in this.
Hi Gary Very Interesting. It looks as if this might favour limiting the size of the battery to enough to cover the peak rate only and using the 'grid battery' for any other surplus. In my spreadsheet sheet the ROI reduced progressively as the battery size increased. Has the much vaunted price drop in solar panels because of the huge Chinese surplus come through to retail sales yet? Mike
Thanks for your insight here, Michael. I agree, and this means that those with smaller batteries can expect to get a LOT of value from a tariff like this. Who'd have thought??? :-)
Good video. But have you actually compared the costs and incomes in a real-world scenario please? i.e. 1 year on Flux compared with 1 year on Intelligent flux.
Thanks for your kind words about the video. Now, I personally have 6 months' data on Octopus Flux but have not tried IOF yet. And of course, the problem is that everyone's situation is different, so one person's real world data might not be very useful to another. Instead, I prefer to model outcomes using the tariff details in my utilities, which can be accessed here: www.garydoessolar.com/solarazma_pro_intro/
Hello, First, Thank you for your reply. Yes I understand. I have also gone to Octopus Flux in the last 2 months....having invested in a Givenergy All-In-One and 7.6kWh PV panels. It is fair to say that we had quite a few installation issues with our installer, but all is sorted now; albeit some fixes were without the installer. It is now configured to maximise the Cheap rate import 2-5AM and Max rate export 4-7PM. Although I only export between 4-6PM, as I found that the battery would pause should the export go down to the set lower charge limit before the export schedule had expired i.e. if my export was set to discharge 4-7PM but the battery hit the lower charge threshold limit at 6:03PM, then the battery would pause until 7PM, and hence I would be pulling from the grid in the peak rate window until 7PM. I hope this makes sense to you. But the long shot is that I am fully recouping the electricity import charge and gaining 2-3x that value in exports. My take on the Intelligent Flux tariff is that the tariff tries to balance what you are importing against what you are exporting, so grid neutral only. Hence Flux seems to work well for me. And all of this without a need for any automation etc. Still I'd be interested to hear and see some other person's experiences. Thanks again Al
I'm on Octopus Agile, for most of the day the import rate is much lower than these rates. I fill the battery before 4pm if the solar is not enough. I'm not high mileage in my EV so only charge it when rates are very low or negative. Generally post between 50p and 60p per 100 miles. Still only March and the daily cost of electric is less than £2
Hello Gary. Eight years ago I built a passive house. 400 sq/m with a heating requirement of 4 Kw when we have heating on. It is all electric . I just recently had 8Kw of solar panels installed and 2 x 9.5 Kw givenergy batteries installed. They have just been installed so I am trying to figure out the best tarriff. My main problem is the Givenergy 5 Kw inverter. That's the biggest single phase and it can only handle 3.6Kw in and 3.6kw out. I am currently on Octopus Cosy tarriff. off peak 04-00 to 07-00 and again 13-00 to 16-00. My daily enrergy use with no heating is about 20 to 24 Kw/hrs per day. If I charge to 60% overnight it leaves space for excess solar to charge. Then come 13-00 I can charge to 100% to last me right through to 04-00. I thought flux and intelligent flux sounded great but during off peak even with the heating off ( forgot- I have an air source heat pump) I could easily draw more that 3.6Kw which would mean drawing from the grid at peak time. On most houses with gas heating you are never going to have a problem but if you have heat pump thats a whole new picture. I don't want to export anything. I want to use everything solar and off peak. When we do have the heating on we use about 40Kw/Hrs a day. Our annual consumption is about 12000kw/hrs. It would be great to be able to use intelligent flux and My Energy Optimser and just forget about it, but I don't think I can.
Enjoyed your video Gary, very timely as my considering switching from Go / export lite to IOF or Flux. To avoid clipping I set my battery to only charge at a rate of approx 25% max charge to use the solar over a longer period to charge the battery , do you know of IOF charges the battery at max or a reduced rate ? Have you considered how IOF compares with the company you recently reviewed who mange your import / export for you for a monthly subscription ?
Thanks for you're very kind words :-) So, on IOF, when your battery is charged by Octopus you pay the import rate at the time, but Octopus may benefit from a cheaper wholesale rate at the time - I believe Octopus tries always to charge during the greenest (i.e. cheapest) slots. Regarding your question, I've still to do the modelling, but my gut feel is that Agile is better for me than IOF as the average Agile rate is 10-15p.
Thanks for your reply Gary, I may not have explained things very well . Now that we are getting more sunny days to avoid clipping I set my battery to charge from the solar array at between 0.75 kW & 1 kW which allows export throughout & prevents clipping whilst the battery is charging over an extended period. Does IOF do similar or does it charge at maximum , in my case 2.6 kW? You recently reviewed “My Energy Optimiser “ with Richard Pearce , the second part of my original question referred to how this compares with IOF and should I consider it as an alternative ? Thanks Alan Skinns
@@AlanS-uu5sy9vy8o Ah ok - on IOF, Octopus has full control over when and at what rate your battery charges. With MyEO, you determine what you want to happen (the charging rules) then MyEO executes that for you on a day to day basis. Hope this helps...
Thanks Gary having watched most of your videos and as an Octopus coustomer I switched to Octopus Flux last year following your advise. I am know looking at Flexible Octopus Flux but I am not sure if I can do that with my system at this time my system has a Lux inverter and 3 Pylonteck batteries 1 US5000 & 2 US2000, what are your thoughts and is it possible to do so.
Thank you very much for the super thanks, John - very much appreciated. Now, if you're looking at Intelligent Octopus Flux, yeah - it's restricted to only GivEnergy batteries at the moment. But the non-intelligent version of Octopus Flux is also a very good tariff, and you might find if/when you're on it, you'll want to buy more of those Pylontechs! :-)
this seems like Octopus’ TEP which required a powerwall, but for givenergy? Net metering is a good benefit but my only wrinkle is the control Octopus have. I assume they’d export in the peak period and avoid import, but there are no guarantees there. If on average they avoid import during peak and make sure there is battery charge for that period (ideally force discharge but not essential) then its a year long battery like you mention. I’m curious how it compares to something like Intelligent octopus and always charging to 100% and letting all solar export at a higher price. slowly building up credit to cover winter lower solar generation
Good points! I'm planning to develop my utility so that can model over a whole year - quite a tall order, but should be achievable. The answers are coming...
Hi Gary great vid! Do you know if I have a 3.6kw inverter that I over size to say the 150% they allow would I still need a G99 application or would I be allowed to install without the grid authority/G99. Many thanks!
Based on the information you have given me, it looks like a G98 application, which is automatic. Your installer will be able to manage all this for you :-)
I have carried out multiple charge/discharge tests to calculate the efficiency of my 8.2kwh GivEnergy battery. Consistently the outcome is the same; at max (forced) charge/ discharge rate efficiency is under 70%. Improves slightly when charging/discharging at lower rates. At 21p import and 28p export, there is a net loss when the battery is forced to export.
You're not the first person to quote 70% figures for GivEnergy in fact. As I have these batteries myself, I think I'm going to have to do a bit of digging...
Switched to intelligent flux today, but it's doing some very odd things. Started exporting from my battery between 7-8.30 outside of peak and then again from 9-9.30. Then it stopped using the battery and was importing from the grid even though the battery was at 50%. What on earth...
Wow - that does sound a bit weird! Perhaps monitor over the next couple of days, and if carrier on behaving like that, just drop Octopus a note on hello@octopus.energy - hope it's all resolved soon!
@@GaryDoesSolar yeah, it's carried on doing it something is definitely borked. Gonna go back to standard flux, at least I know what's going on then. Reached out to octopus but don't expect an answer for a few days.
Interested in your thoughts on whether you plan to stay on IOF over winter or if you plan to switch back to agile or flux and when you might consider doing that? We are currently on IOF and wondering if it will be more beneficial to switch in the next few months, our consumption will increase but not hugely as heating is gas still eg tumble drier. Many thanks
Hi Gabrielle, thanks for your question. So, in the follow-up one, on why I switched over to IOF, I mention at 8m15s that I was looking to get an EV in September and that would likely change things for me: ua-cam.com/video/l7blcY_fDMQ/v-deo.html In fact, that happened in July when my ICE car broke down, and I made the switch to Intelligent Octopus Go. IOF is perhaps not ideal for EV owners as it substantially increases electricity usage--especially for higher mileage users--and that upsets the generation/usage ratio required for IOF. It's hard to comment on your case without knowing the specifics, but if you've been on the tariff over the summer, you should now have a healthy balance on your energy account. The idea of course, is that balance will start to delete as it covers usage against less generation over the winter. And that of course, is the idea of the tariff. So, doing nothing and remaining with the tariff for a full year, is an option. Alternatively, you might want to try a tariff like Agile over the winter, when there are expected to be many price plunges etc. That way, you get experience of more tariffs before settling on something that you feel works best for your situation. If you have an EV (or are thinking about getting one) I've yet to see a tariff from Octopus that is better than IOG, and there is now competition to IOG in the market from other providers too. Hope this helps!
@@GaryDoesSolar thank you for taking the time to respond, your thoughts and opinions are helpful. We don't yet have an EV but taking on board your thoughts we may try a different tariff for the comparison and aim of saving, at least we have the option to switch back if not for us. Thanks again, it's appreciated.
I can tell you that the methodology behind the Intelligent Flux comes from the old Tesla Tariff, as I was on it for over a year. Charge to 100% overnight, dump at 5k into the grid at 16:00 on the dot. The first few weeks of that, after years of trying to avoid using mains at all was VERY disconcerting. The difference is that the Tesla Tariff was fixed rate all day (11p per kWh), and export was around a penny more than import to allow for the cycle loss of the battery. . Would I change from the Flux Tariff I am on at present? Probably not. I really never got used to having no control over MY battery, as it became THEIR battery. I could pull a charge every morning at off peak, and dump at 16:00hrs every day now, and make money from it, but I prefer to NOT use mains AT ALL if possible, but I am still happy to dump 30 to 40% into the mains at Peak, (if the following day will be bright enough to re-charge the battery on solar.) I make enough from that. I think being able to tell folks that for 8 months of the year I use no mains power at all, and that over the year I get more from the sun than I use, (including charging the car), so essentially free power for the year, gives a better impression than saying that I can make money from the system. I guess I feel that my way "Gives back" to the grid and helps with regard to saving energy, where as making money from the system seems like "Taking" and a bit mercenary. That view can be picked apart easily, but is my outlook on life. Giving something is more charitable than the trumpian "What's in it for ME?" Thank you for a good explainer though, I had not heard of the Intelligent Tariff before now!
Great points throughout your comment - thanks! Now that you mention about Octopus dropping the TEP, the rationale for the IOF tariff make more sense now. Am I correct in thinking that as a user, you could define the percentage of Powerwall that could be used for the VPP function? That would allow you to maintain your "don't draw from the grid" ambition, yeah?
@@GaryDoesSolar The minimum %age was set at 20% by Tesla. So, charge up to full in the early (otherwise Off Peak, except the Tesla Tariff was a single rate 24/7), morning, drain at 16:00Hrs until down to 20% again. With the Flux tariff I have control again. I also now have a better idea of my usage, so, whereas last year I would only discharge to 75%, now I am happy to go to 60% (given a decent following day), knowing I can last until the following SunUp without resorting to the mains. It does require keeping an eye on the SOC as once the level you have set is reached, the house load will start to pull FROM the mains. Discharge seems to stop at about 1% above the set limit, allowing time to switch back to "Use your own Solar" from the "Time Based Control" mode, and reset the limit back down to 20%. This year looks like I may 'Pay Off' my January/February usage a month earlier (end of April) than previous years, so I am well chuffed. But then, it has been a mild winter on the whole!
It does sound good, but I don't know if the compensation is enough to account for someone else controlling the cycling of the battery, wearing down it's lifetime usage etc
Thanks for a good explanation. I have solar, battery and an EV and I think the EV drives me towards the Intelligent Octopus Go tariff. With Go, Octopus control my EV charging but not my battery.
Is there a minimum battery size requirement for octopus to allow you on this tariff? Such as the 9.5kWh so it is large enough to cover the 3 hour peak window? Or can people with the GivEnergy 2.5 also go on this tarrif?
Hi David, yeah - my understanding is that you can use the tariff with any size of battery - but it’s worth checking that your usage over the peak period (4-7pm) is not greater than 80% of your battery size, otherwise you’ll be pulling from the grid at peak import rate.
Sadly my battery doesn’t qualify yet, but if it did then I’d certainly be on Intelligent flux for the summer period. The way things are priced just now, Intelligent Go plus Outgoing Fixed offers only a marginally worse export price than Octopus flux (mine is fixed at 15p till October). I’m going to have to say, I’m sticking with Intelligent Go for the summer. The flexibility of being able to charge overnight cheap allowing multiple long distance drives on consecutive days is compelling. I don’t get that advantage with Flux. All that said, while Intelligent flux is best for the summer, it’s still best to jump onto Intelligent Go for the winter just now. I suspect Octopus might just tweak the terms to oblige a 12 month minimum commitment to avoid this kind of game being played.
I would check the small print in the contract. I’m sure there was a clause which said if you come off the Intelligent Flux tariff you can’t rejoin it for 9 months.
I’m on IOG but finding EV charge scheduling of a BMW troublesome. Last week the car kicked off charging early (23:05 vs 23:25). I *think* it was still in the 7.5p slot, but there’s no obvious way to find out what my live charge rate is. I’m on the 40p/kWh FIT for a 2KW solar panel -not quite enough to charge the car, but if I went to a rate like tracker the lower daytime rate would mean I could charge the car with AC current throttled back and maybe actually go off grid for charging,
I moved to Intelligent Octopus Flux in late April. Export income is great, but one drawback I discovered the other day is in the event of a power outage. I have an EPS changeover switch and so used it when I had a power cut. Nothing happened !!! Reason - when Octopus take over your battery they take it out of Eco mode and so cannot supply your home. Because the internet is then down, you can't turn Eco mode back on, so you have no back up. Only a minor issue because power cuts are rare, nonetheless I paid the installer to enable EPS and OIF tariff renders it non operational.
Thanks for pointing me toward this tariff. Net metering on a big scale can't work, it pushes the network and storage costs to the people not being able to afford their own installations, this is the reason why it's rightly abandoned in the US and other places where it still exists. Great for the solar/battery owner if you can get it though!
@hans.vbaalen Thank you, Hans for the Super Thanks 😀👍🏻 and yeah, that’s what I’d been hearing about net metering tariffs too! Maybe this tariff will suffer the same fate if it gets too popular?
I am on Octopus but applied to use Scottish Power for SEG because Octopus will not accept Flexi Orb installations and only accept MCS. They do have a trail scheme but to apply is £250! How much generation would you need to make to get your money back. SP is offer 12p so that’s the best option for Flexi Orb installations that I can see.
North Yorks decided batteries were too expensive so pulled them from their package to me. Not only that but then downsized the inverter so it couldn’t manage a battery pack so I can’t upgrade 😡 I have 15p. kw export rate. and my bank balance is my battery. I use summer income to pay for winter electricity. I’m further north now but it worked for me in S. Lincs. I’m wondering if any rates are better with someone without battery option ? Regards DB
Hi there, I’ve just switched to the intelligent flux. It’s quite scary as I’ve been trying to build my winter buffer to avoid going into negative equity. In your view is it worth doing? Does it actually save money?
Yeah, the optimum time to switch to IOF is at the beginning of summer, because that allows you build up that nice buffer to offset the winter costs. Now, joining now will mean you’ll have to make payments on your energy account in order to keep it in the black, but provided you generate more than you consume over the entire year, your balance should look healthy next summer 👍🏻
Sorry Gary. Just pulled the plug on Flux. Reasons? I can’t balance the average flux imports rates against the average Agile rates. Far more costly. Yes the flux export rate is higher than the fixed export rate but the drop in my import costs more than outweigh any extra export differential. Also no intelligent flux for PW2 6 months after announcement.
Yeah, I can understand that. I'm on Agile at the moment, and it's so good that it doesn't really make sense to try something like IOF... Re. PW2, Tesla don't allow third party access as a matter of policy, and that's unlikely to change. Tesla is more about supplying product that just works (especially with their on VPP offering in some countries) and so they don't want other parties 'inside' their product causing issues, I'm thinking...
Hi Alan, yeah - that's a good idea - it sounds counter-intuitive, but it all revolves around the wholesale price of electricity, which can go to zero (like it did today from midnight until 4pm) and can even go negative.
They’ll use your battery electricity at peak hours with their existing customers so not have to pay the power stations peak rate -or actually resell it. And you’re the one investing capital in the battery so they don’t have to. On those times when kWh are priced negatively (today!) they’ll turn every battery on, have it charge at max rate and then use in the evening for max revenue.
It appears you don’t have to give Octopus control for Intelligent. I have a LuxPower system at my house and i am on Intelligent Flux but still in full control of my system. Either Octopus did an oopsie or the control is optional
Very well presented and explained as always. But my Tracker "Battery", as you refer to import, costs me nothing and is cheaper than this modified Flux tariff. I'm running at an average cost on tracker of 16.43p per KWh. "There is no economic reason for installing PV and/or batteries " discuss...... I'd love to see a costed reason why I am wrong. It's obvious to me that PV and batteries are a waste of money. Do I need to join your patreon group to prove that I am correct? I'm really not being deliberately awkward but it's just obvious to me that most if not all PV and battery installations are unsound on economic grounds. When I worked for a living I often had to work out if a new piece of equipment was cost effective to buy. Using the same methods I can't see that domestic Solar and batteries can ever pay for itself. Please can someone prove me wrong
It's one of the reasons why I developed those utilities - so people could model for themselves the costs and benefits of various investments. I'll leave to you as to whether it's worthwhile joining my Patreon to gain access to those utilities. I'd love to be able to offer them all for free, but they take thousands of hours to develop. As regards your wider question, all I can say is that for my situation, there are both financial and environmental benefits. And for many, even if there were no financial benefits, they'd still do it to help the environment. There are plenty of people on UA-cam who feel the same.
@@GaryDoesSolar We won't go there with the environment. There's a sort of religion where people believe that CO2 is responsible for climate change. The many scientists who argue against the 'religion' get no airing. But there are many videos out there of respected people showing at conferences how tenuous the argument for CO2 is. Volcanic activity is responsible for many times more CO2 and other green house gases than is generated because of human activity. As a scientist myself I've looked at their papers and lectures and it's tenuous at best. Not a doubt that the climate is warming but there are other causes. I won't be becoming a patreon. No disrespect , on tracker my electricity cost is about £800 per annum. A Tesla powerwall is £9000 + installation. Solar is £9000 for me. There is no way I can make money producing electricity at 33p or 53p. As I say no disrespect intended. Your early videos made me question things and talk to others. Some of them are authors of well known monitoring apps. One of whom really made me think.
Just got our latest octopus statement apparently they failed to bill for gas since July 2023 and now expect us to pay a massive bill for their failure !!!. Also they said the meter that came with their smart meters doesn’t work with the tariff we are using !. I give up
Hi Steven, sorry to hear about this. How about asking Octopus for a repayment plan over 12 months. You can always go to the Ombudsman, but I know Octopus to be a fair company. Ultimately, you still owe the money for the gas consumed, but it's not your fault that Octopus failed to bill you, leaving you with a very large bill now.
@@GaryDoesSolar and thats the very issue Gary, do I owe this money or is it another octo miscalculation ? They did the very same a year or so ago ‘forgot’ to invoice for an entire years worth of electricity !. I wonder how many other people have ‘forgotten’ bills heading their way ???.
Hi David, so in Summer, you'll likely be generating lots more solar generation than you can use, so it gets exported to the grid. And in winter, it's the opposite, your solar generation is less than the energy your require, so you're importing from the grid. But because the import and export rates are the same, the grid is essentially acting as an infinite battery. So, over the summer, you're building up a positive financial balance on your energy account due to all the paid export, then over the winter that balance depletes given the import you're paying for, Overall, it balances out, therefore a "smoothing" effect. Make sense?
@@GaryDoesSolar also just found out you can't join IO Flux if you have multiple Giv inverters. 1 inverter only, multiple batteries are fine. Limitations of the beta product I guess.
Unfortunately Gary the UK's 3rd world infrastructure is on it's knees in most rural areas and although I can generate way more than I can use especially during the better months the DNO have refused any exporting.
Yeah, it's such a shame the UK can't be a world-leader here - we have all the pieces and so it just needs investment. And as an investment, it's pretty low risk! I despair sometimes...
I would like to know this as well. I see my FIT "provider " , Good Energy, have just changed their T&Cs in that I now have tell them if I have a "storage sevice" installed.
@@edwardwilcox8982 I must admit I've only had the time (& inclination) Edward, to just skim their revised t&c's - there may be more detail down in the weeds. But I do feel a little mistrustful of them since they unilaterally changed the export payment tariff element of our FIT contact from calculated to measured. It's made a mockery of our initial return on investment calculations. The calculation of which over the sort of periods one is dealing with with solar I think is becoming increasingly thumb in the air. The thought of switching tariffs several times a year for maximum efficiency does not fill me with enthusiasm :-)
So Octopus controls your battery and smart meter. Ok. But when its taken over it will be controlled by a foreign operator like all the suppliers and Will be milked for as much as they can get.
Or if your really concerned, move some where with lots of sun shine and a stream and live off grid to have ultimate control. Shamefully control is largely out of our hand these days
I get where you're coming from - too much choice can be paralysing... But I'm hoping my videos help folks navigate through all the options to find out what best works for them...
Heard it all before with TEP. Started off great and then they screwed with it a little, then a little more, then a little more …oh look it’s not no longer beneficial to me at all!! Thx but no thx octopus been there done that!
Great video Gary - unfortunately I'm having issues with the set up for switching as it gets stuck after logging into my GivEnergy account where it just hangs and won't go any further. I've emailed help@octopus and smart@octopus but they are not responding. Have you any suggestions on completing the set up? Thanks.
Hi Steve, I along with several others like yourself trying to sign up to IOG are having this problem! I have been in touch with both Givenergy & Octopus who in turn have liaised & advised that it is an Octopus issue . I am waiting for Octopus to resolve the issue !
Thanks - now, they might be busy over the Easter weekend I guess - not least because the new rates came into force today, so a lot of prep within the business to prepare... I think you'll get a reply to your email in the next couple of days, fingers crossed!
Thank you, Gary, what a great video. Very informative and professionally made. Also, your delivery style is excellent.
Thanks Anthony - that's really great feedback to receive! :-)
Finally the first uk solar channel to talk about this amazing tariff!
Thanks - I'm not sure I'm the first to cover the tariff, but hopefully the first to look into in such detail :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar I was one of the first to get it end of summer last year and still haven't seen any decent coverage of it.
I hope to see any real life cover of people with the tariff, But I have saved so much money.
@@grantmidd Yeah, I guess that the tariff is not easy to comprehend when people first come across it - and of course, that might make people shy away from it. Hopefully my video will shine a little light on what I think is an innovative new approach.
@@GaryDoesSolar Indeed you did.
I loved that double-take moment, Gary!
Thank you! It was a bit cringy but thought I’d keep it in, just in case it made people laugh 😆
Super content as always about solar, battery or tariffs. Thank you 😊😊😊
Thanks 😀🙏
Gary, these 2 tarrifs have been on my mind for a while so thank you for your informative content. As an installer I can see my customers energy usage and your content helps me to guide them through the mine field of tarrifs, when to charge and discharge, saving sessions etc... one things for sure there's not a one size fits all scenario for my customers so thank you for your valuable contribution to the eco warriors.
Thanks for your very kind words - I'm so happy my videos are helping you help your customers :-)
Thanks for your video, it convinced me to change although I wasn't impressed with the time it took for Octopus to action things even though I'd been on Flux already. I live in Suffolk and unlike many other counties we benefit from "Power Ups". I am presuming that Octopus blend this in to their automations. It's day 1 and we have free electricity from 11am-2pm today - WHOOP!
Wow - I hope we can get power ups in Oxfordshire, where I live! That said, I'm on Agile at the moment it's free much free electricity all day tomorrow :-)
Thanks Gary for your explanation.
You're most welcome! Glad it was helpful :-)
Hi Gary thanks for your informative videos I will be changing to octopus I have used your referral code thanks Martin
If your Octopus experience is as good as mine, you’ll be very happy to have moved over…
Hi Martin, you're most welcome - I'm very happy to hear that they're useful to you. And that was very kind of you to think of me with the referral code - thank you! :-)
Perfect timing for this video, Gary! I'm having a GivEnergy 9.5kWh battery and 5kW inverter installed in 2 weeks and was undecided on which tariff to start on. I'm still not sure, but much better informed now! That off-peak export rate is very tempting as my array should produce about 30-40% more than my annual usage. Plus, I think the idea of a VPP is very cool...
Excellent stuff! I think we're spoiled for choice with all the tariffs being offered by Octopus Energy, and although I was skeptical of IOF to begin with, I'm really liking what it's trying to achieve!
@@GaryDoesSolar another point that is brilliant about the parity in import/export rates, which you briefly touch on at 6:07 in the video, is that you don't have to worry about spreading out your off-peak usage throughout the day. I don't have to nag my family about having the kettle on at the same time as the oven, or the washing machine and the dryer at the same time - it's already been covered by the export. So not only do you flatten the annual curve, but you flatten the daily one as well. Practically this means a lot less micromanagement in the home, which is fantastic.
Even if you are micromanaging, the lag time of the home battery is also negated with IOF, so something like an induction hob going on and off will draw a lot of power from the grid until the battery catches up. This only adds up to a few pence a day, but still would be saved for the perfectionists.
@@DarkS1m Great points! 😃
I went over to Intelligent Octopus Flux back in November. It certainly takes a bit of trust to give over total control to Octopus. The battery is charged to about 50-55% over night during winter. The rest is from the sun or off peak till 1600hrs when it will discharge to home and grid till 1900hrs. So you will always consume but gain during peak periods.
Now that the equinox has past the night time charging has stopped and the battery is charged from the sun or grid as stated above. However what is noticeable is that even now in mid March the generation is beginning to overhaul the consumption, so I’m making some money. Roll on summer.😊
Great to hear, Ian. And yes, let's have more sun! :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar Now, what about a wind turbine?
Incidentally, if you have solar, any wind turbine could be turned "off", doubling their life span. (Also during daylight in the nesting season?!). Average wind speed here, M4 corridor, is a paltry 4.5m/s, but the average winter months are 6m/s, which is useful. There plenty of 100watt @ 6m/s turbines (2.4Kwh/day) for around £500 just needs the law changed to allow 6 of them on the roof. Fat chance.
£3000 for 13.5kWh/day. Intelligent Octopus Flux would fix wind turbine intermittency, by being, as you say, a gigantic battery.
Hi there, I’ve just switched to the intelligent flux. It’s quite scary as I’ve been trying to build my winter buffer to avoid going into negative equity. In your view is it worth doing? Does it actually save money?
@@ianmarle8188 Simply yes. I’ve got 5kw solar array and a 3.6kw GivEnergy inverter with a 9.5kwh GivEnergy battery. We have had positive contributions since the above post. During the good months you should expect double the export value against import. When we first got the solar system we were on an Octopus fix so it did not suit to change. We are still learning ourselves but we came out of winter with a positive balance of about £800. Current monthly DD is £90, cut from £180 non solar. We will have a good balance for winter and will not worry about turning on the central heating. We saved about £1200 using the tariffs at the time. It does take a bit of getting used to with this tariff eg we are still discharging at 2030 regularly this summer. It does work but I will probably change to another tariff if I buy an EV.
@@ianmarle8188 Yes it does. In the good months I am getting double the cost of import. I don’t have an EV but if I do buy one in the future it would probably best to change tariffs.
Thank you very well explained. You make a good sales case for the tariff. I am now going away to think about what I should do. I think my small 5.2 Kwh battery is too small and Octopus want £ 1800.00 to add another one which might not work for me. Time to get my calculator out I think.
I am in the same position @PeterGagen so if you come to any conclusion, I would be keen to know! Thanks 😁
You're very welcome, Peter - hope the numbers stack up!
My supplier wanted £2k +VAT when I enquired about another battery earlier this year
The conundrum that I am trying to work though is whether to stay on Agile and manually manage it myself or hand over control to this - I am keeping my average p/kWh
I feel the same...!
Very interesting video and something else to consider ahead of my solar/battery installation in a couple of weeks (with a Givenergy battery).
What size of battery are you getting? Bigger is always better 😊 Upgraded my own battery last week to 15.5kwh for £2500 great price for the capacity
13.5kW 😊
@@stevegame3000 good size. The usable 5kwh had previously was too small.
@@AdrianMcDaid yes you’ve got great storage capacity now. Nice one
Thanks, and great to hear, Steve! Hope the installation goes well :-)
Really clear and a really interesting watch!
Cheers Derek - this is great feedback to receive - thank you! :-)
Well done, Gary, for an excellent series of videos - thank you. I was wondering if you might like to do something on automating the Agile tariff, perhaps looking at My Energy Optimiser, Wonder Watt, GivEnergy's Smart Tariff automation etc.
You're most welcome! Now, I've still to complete part 4 of my smart tariff strategies series - and this last part is on tracker tariffs. I'll certainly be covering the items you propose... :-)
I'm currently trying to change my export tariff with Octopus but you would not believe how hard their customer support are making it. And that is just one of the problems I am trying to sort out with them. I like the company but I'm rapidly loosing patience with their support staff.
Sorry to hear you're having issues with your account, John. If I ever have a problem, I usually communicate with Octopus via email (hello@octopus.energy) with a clear and concise explanation of the issue and my request, and they response well.
I had s very similar problem with the amount I was allowed to export taking them many months with them getting it wrong. It cost me a lot of money last summer. As of today, 8 months later, they still haven't got a bill right, and I still can't just download a correct bill from the app or site. Hopeless. They overcharged me by thinking I was on standard octopus, yet I was on Octopus Flux at one point, and Octopus Go on another, despite the App telling me they knew I was on these tariffs... Almost criminal. If i get much more grief I'll have to report them...
Octopus admin is a disaster area.
I agree 100% I’ve exported almost 750 kWh without recompense and am now told it will take 11 weeks in total before it’s sorted .. PATHETIC! To be clear I’m requesting an export mpan .
For NEM in Malaysia our energy company charges users ‘total imported energy + service tax (8%) + some other fees’, BEFORE refunding exported energy at a 1:1 tariff rate. Meaning even if you export the amount you import, you’d still be paying 8% ++. So, it’s still beneficial to consume as much of your own energy during the day. Granted, for most it’s not huge amounts, but it is noteworthy.
I didn't know that about the Malaysian market - thanks for sharing.
I find that many people overlook that you can export to the grid to store your energy, but when you import it back you are subject to VAT on the imported energy, thus incurring a loss.
Can you share example figures to support that? In the UK, the Intelligent Octopus Go tariff currently allows cheap import at 7p and all-day export at 15p, which is far greater than a 20% VAT differential.
Hey Gary, just signed up to Octopus and used your code, so hopefully you will get the £50 added. Many thanks for your advice and guidance. Much appreciated.
Hi Phil, that's so very kind of you - thank you! :-)
Gary - I just found your channel - and this particular video. It's very helpful - although I'm still a little overwhelmed at the moment - as I'm a solar newbie! My PV/battery installation was completed today - 11.4kW array and a 13.5kW GivEnergy battery. The estimated output from the installer (split over E, W and S facing roofs) is 9.2kWh per year.. We use between 7000 - 7500kWh per year and we have a well insulated home that is fully electric with a heat pump. We dont have an EV, and no plans for one just yet. Do you think Octopus Intelligent Flux would be worth starting with?
Hi Stuart, really happy to hear my channel has been helpful to you. Now, unfortunately, l'm not in a position to provide individual advice (not least because of potential liability issues, even if that advice is given free - such is the world today). You're best to speak to an installer for such advice, or post a comment onto a solar forum (for example, this one in the UK: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466). Good luck!
I think there is one limitation with the intelligent tariff, which is that most inverters are G98 and so are export limited, so although you may have a large solar array, that only counts in your favour if you can export the full generation (less your home usage). If you are limited to 3.68kW export then I don’t think this tariff will work for you.
That's a good point, Graham. I'll need to think about the impact of a smaller inverter... I'm planning to do some modelling shortly...
@@GaryDoesSolar if it helps with your modelling, I have a hybrid inverter (LuxPower 3K6), with 7.7kw of slightly north east/south west facing and 5 Pylontech US2000C batteries set for 90% dod. So while the inverter is capable of 7kw peak solar generation, for that use case to be effective, you need to have batteries being charged and then the remainder can go to the house or export. I think that anyone with a hybrid inverter that allows a larger array size (good for winter generation) but is G.98 will not really benefit from intelligent flux. To be honest, when I got the solar in the first place, the installers didn’t even talk about G.98 vs G.99 or G.100, nor did they mention that a G.98 inverter has the consequence that your house load served from the inverter can only be 16A and I didn’t know any better otherwise I would have chosen a bigger inverter and a G.99 approval. The issue for me was that solar was new and although I have a degree in electrical engineering, there’s a lot of information to learn and although UA-cam channels such as yours are really helping to make the information more widely available, there was less available in 2021-2022. Let me know if you want any real generation data to compare your modelling with and I’m happy to share. At a high level last year was generation 6035 kWh, export to grid 1669kwh, consumption around 5556kwh (this figure will be a bit low due to some usage being on the non-grid side of the inverter (it has a UPS type capability that I use for boiler and wifi so they stay on in case of a power cut) and import from grid 2070kwh
@@grahamheath9957 This is great input - thanks Graham!
Nice video as always, very clearly explained.
Personally I prefer to be in control of my system and use Home Assistant to do basically what they're doing IMO more optimised to my own requirements not what octopus thinks is the best.
Intelligent would seem to have the limitation of only making electricity "free"
However with regular flux it feels like you it's easier to generate a profit by utilising the offer-peak import and peak-export.
Did you switch to Agile in the end Gary?
Hi Rob, thanks for the great feedback! :-) Yeah, giving up control is not for everyone... I certainly know I made a LOT of profit last summer on Flux, but I'm going to be doing some in-depth modelling soon, to see what's best for me.
I did switch to Agile after Flux (around November I think) and it's been very. very good! I use MyEnergyOptimiser to control my battery - to automatically select the cheapest slots to charge my battery to 100% overnight regardless of the weather. I can't fault the tariff at all.
Gary fantastic explanation. I have only just come across this video. I have only had my solar and battery system for just under a year (installed by Octopus). I have been monitoring the data over a year to get a feel of how the system works. I've avoided Intelligent Octopus Flux so far as I was not sure exactly how it operated. I'm currently on the Octopus Flux tariff. You mentioned in closing, that it's worth switching to intelligent at the start of summer. What about now? almost at the tail end of summer? Is it worth switching at this point in the year?
Thanks for your kind words! Now, you can switch to IOF at any time, but the problem with switching now is that you’ll not be able to build a buffer (like you would if you joined at the start of the summer) and that means you’ll be paying for import with little export to offset that. That said, if you’re planning to be on IOF long term (say a minimum of 2 years) then maybe just go for it… 👍🏻
I've been on Flux since mid 2022 & looking forwards, I can't say I'm best pleased with Octopus. My west facing array produces roughly 2500 kWh/year with 80% of this output in the 2nd & 3rd quarters of the year. My domestic demand is typically 2150 kWh/year, so like in your example, I'm a net exporter to the grid. Although the actual calculation is complex, my annual bill is the (negative) credit I get from my summer exports plus my standing charge. So from April 1st, Octopus have DECREASED my solar export price by 15% & INCREASED my standing charge by an eye watering 28%! I'm actually worse off. Thanks a bloody million Octopus!
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Did you mean mid-2023 as both Octopus Flux tariffs were launched only last year? And were/are you on Octopus Flux or Intelligent Octopus Flux? If the former, it's really only a summer tariff, so most people switch to something else (for example, I went over to Agile) over the winter. If you stayed on Octopus Flux throughout the winter, overall you'll likely have lost all the financial gain you achieved over the summer.
If you don't fancy switching tariffs twice a year (and I could completely get that) then Intelligent Octopus Flux could work out best for you, for all the reasons I stated in my video.
I agree with you about the standing charge increases - it's borderline criminal in my view as it penalises low energy users, including the elderly and vulnerable.
@@GaryDoesSolarSorry. Yes, it was mid-2023, not 2022 & it's standard Flux, not Intelligent Flux, as the newer tariff doesn't work with Growatt batteries yet.
I did glean some benefit over the winter with Flux. I filled up my admittedly small 3.3 kWh battery between 2am & 5am & I reckon this saved me about 45 quid per winter. Sadly this saving is way too small to justify splashing out £1,500 on a second battery.
@@MrSensible2 Something you might want to try this year is staying with Octopus Flux until about mid October, then switch to Agile until end March 2025. It worked for me, certainly. And to get the best from Octopus Flux, you could set your battery to force-charge to 100% during the off-peak period (or at least as much as charge as 3 hours will give) then force-discharge during the peak period, leaving enough energy in the battery to get you through to the off-peak period the next day. See this video here that explains this in detail: ua-cam.com/video/dGpsN8-1Fx4/v-deo.html
@@GaryDoesSolar One of the hardest equations to solve is based on what you've said here - do you cram your battery full and then force-discharge it, or do you give your battery some limits and hope it lasts longer... It's very hard to be at the start of a technology (eg LifePO4) or a tariff (eg Octopus Intelligent Flux) and know whether you've optimised "this year's profits" against "needing replacements in 10 years time".
My own strategy is that I live where there are power cuts - maybe 12 a year - because our village, although having underground electricity, is fed by overhead cables from the nearest town. So I need to keep enough in the battery that my work commitments (involving video lessons) are never compromised.
All in all, it's clearly not a one-size-fits-all problem/solution.
Nonetheless, I'm happy with Flux, and happy with your very clear explanation about Intelligent Flux and the world's biggest battery...
@@DerekHasted Thanks Derek, for your kind words. Yeah, it's not easy for anyone to determine which tariff(s) will be best for them, and how to get the best from their solar and battery installation. For me, it all comes down to have good data modelling, and that's why I'm spending a lot of time developing utilities on my Patreon 👍
great video, however for me i am sticking with agile for the moment, time will tell if its the right decision
Thanks, and yeah - I'm on Agile at the moment, and am deciding which tariff to do next. I'm not sure you can go wrong with Octopus tariffs in fact, whichever you choose :-)
great video. I am on Octopus Flux and have requested to go onto Intelligent Octopus Flux as I have the GivEnergy AllinOne battery. I have been waiting for weeks to move tariff so either they are inundated with people moving or something must be up.
Thanks :-)
Yeah, not sure why there's a delay. I'd suggest to email them and ask what the hold up is...
@@GaryDoesSolar has anyone being able to move to this tariff? I have been in conversation with octopus for ages but the process of joining fails for me. I have all the updated apps, correct battery but still it doesn't move me to the new tariff
Hi Gary. Fantastic video! Thanks for explaining it so clearly. I wondered what your thoughts might be on joining IOF at this time of year as a brand new installation?
I have just had a solar and battery system installed - went live 10th October and still waiting for my MPAN so I imagine my export will start sometime in November hopefully. I have an 8.8 kwp system with a 5 kw GivEnergy inverter and 5.2 kw GivEngery battery with an estimated annual output of 7006 kwh against an annual usage of approx 2330 kwh.
I am a bit confused as to whether I should stick to Octopus Flux for now until the Spring for IOF or whether I would be better off going straight to IOF? I understand the idea of IOF is to build a surplus in the Summer to make up for the deficit of generation in the Winter, but I don’t currently have a surplus.
What would your advice be for a new solar and battery system installed in the Winter?
Cheers Paul for your kind words. Personally, I wouldn’t change to IOF until March next year at the earliest, the reason being is that you’ll be accruing an energy bill from now until then, which you’ll only recover at the end of the summer. Many people including myself also consider OF as a summer-only tariff, but there’s no real harm staying on that over the winter, but personally, I’d use the opportunity to try out Agile. That way you’re building up experience of the various tariffs on offer so you can eventually determine which ones are best for your situation. And if you have an EV you would most likely always be better with a tariff like OG or better still, IOG. Hope that helps.
Great video, very insightful!
Over how many years does Octopus guarantee fixed import / export rates?
Cheers Clemens - now, Octopus tends to adjust their rates every year.
I am on the Agile tariff, and I have a passive house (PH) with a 17 tonne concrete slab within the thermal envelope, and so this provides huge 'thermal inertia'. The house is fully characterised, and I have a simple and fully automated control process using my own Node-Red code. Each night at 11 PM the UFH and HW demand for the coming 24 hr period based on weather forecast and current house / HW tank temperatures is calculated to determine total UFH and HW 'on time' needed; this is then scheduled for the N cheapest half-hour slots based on the next day's tariff. The whole house is run as a single zone at a fixed set point 24×7. Using the cheapest slots doesn't materially impact the internal temperatures, because of this thermal inertia.
This all works well because I designed and built my house to work this way, but the characteristics of a true PH, a flawed implementation of a PH, a modern code-complaint build, an older leaky and poorly insulated traditional build are all vastly different. I am not sure how an energy supplier could implement a smart agile-aware control regime without a decent calibrated model of the house performance, and the occupants' comfort aims.
Ok, that sounds impressive - thanks for sharing!
As I thought when Intelligent Flux was introduced. I think for solar and battery only, the best regime is Flux for the summer and Agile for the winter, with the spring change over coming very shortly.
Yeah, that certainly worked for me 👍🏻
I switched to Flux when I first heard about it. Then I tracked it comparing the the standard rate that non-Solar/battery users are on when, in November I decided it wasn't worth the bother. a couple of months ago I became aware that Agile was workable for me. I've just had the bill for the past month and discovered I've been paying an average of 12p per kW/h for import🙂 And no, we don't run white goods overnight. I stuck to the Fixed export rate of 15p.
Your comment has just make me wonder if I should be considerering going back to Flux? Clearly I need to see the post-April 1st prices to make any sense of my options.
Given how well Agile is working for me, I expect I'll stay.
I observe that there's no mention of VAT which, of course is payable on Import but doesn't apply to export. Hence when Import & Export appear to have the same price they don't in reality.
My calculations now indicate that if I import at more than 11.25p kW/hr and export it later at 15p I'm losing money. This takes VAT and Import/Export loss (10%) into account.
I'm using the Octopus Watch App to check for the best value import times, when convenient for me, in addition to those that already automated.
I had eco 7 through the winter as this gave a wider window of cheaper electric, I have one storage heater and an I boost, but timer use to heat water during winter time, this worked well but last month I moved to Flux but this ended up dearer in KW cost etc, I am now on agile and flux exsport, this is working well and at the time iof this I have have 4 hrs of zero cost and the exsport between 1600-1900 29p a KW, i love plunge prices, this week I have had two days of being paid back, not withdth standing the dreaded standing charge daily included in this.
Hi Tony, thanks for sharing your experiences with these tariffs. I'm on Agile myself at the moment as well, and I have to say - it's pretty good! :-)
Hi Gary
Very Interesting. It looks as if this might favour limiting the size of the battery to enough to cover the peak rate only and using the 'grid battery' for any other surplus. In my spreadsheet sheet the ROI reduced progressively as the battery size increased.
Has the much vaunted price drop in solar panels because of the huge Chinese surplus come through to retail sales yet?
Mike
Thanks for your insight here, Michael. I agree, and this means that those with smaller batteries can expect to get a LOT of value from a tariff like this. Who'd have thought??? :-)
Yeah, solar panel prices have dropped quite a lot last few months (great!) - I'm planning to do a video on such...
Thanks Gary
Good video. But have you actually compared the costs and incomes in a real-world scenario please? i.e. 1 year on Flux compared with 1 year on Intelligent flux.
Thanks for your kind words about the video.
Now, I personally have 6 months' data on Octopus Flux but have not tried IOF yet. And of course, the problem is that everyone's situation is different, so one person's real world data might not be very useful to another. Instead, I prefer to model outcomes using the tariff details in my utilities, which can be accessed here: www.garydoessolar.com/solarazma_pro_intro/
Hello,
First, Thank you for your reply. Yes I understand.
I have also gone to Octopus Flux in the last 2 months....having invested in a Givenergy All-In-One and 7.6kWh PV panels.
It is fair to say that we had quite a few installation issues with our installer, but all is sorted now; albeit some fixes were without the installer.
It is now configured to maximise the Cheap rate import 2-5AM and Max rate export 4-7PM.
Although I only export between 4-6PM, as I found that the battery would pause should the export go down to the set lower charge limit before the export schedule had expired i.e. if my export was set to discharge 4-7PM but the battery hit the lower charge threshold limit at 6:03PM, then the battery would pause until 7PM, and hence I would be pulling from the grid in the peak rate window until 7PM. I hope this makes sense to you.
But the long shot is that I am fully recouping the electricity import charge and gaining 2-3x that value in exports.
My take on the Intelligent Flux tariff is that the tariff tries to balance what you are importing against what you are exporting, so grid neutral only.
Hence Flux seems to work well for me. And all of this without a need for any automation etc.
Still I'd be interested to hear and see some other person's experiences.
Thanks again
Al
I'm on Octopus Agile, for most of the day the import rate is much lower than these rates. I fill the battery before 4pm if the solar is not enough. I'm not high mileage in my EV so only charge it when rates are very low or negative. Generally post between 50p and 60p per 100 miles. Still only March and the daily cost of electric is less than £2
Sounds great! 👍🏻
Hello Gary. Eight years ago I built a passive house. 400 sq/m with a heating requirement of 4 Kw when we have heating on. It is all electric . I just recently had 8Kw of solar panels installed and 2 x 9.5 Kw givenergy batteries installed. They have just been installed so I am trying to figure out the best tarriff.
My main problem is the Givenergy 5 Kw inverter. That's the biggest single phase and it can only handle 3.6Kw in and 3.6kw out. I am currently on Octopus Cosy tarriff. off peak 04-00 to 07-00 and again 13-00 to 16-00. My daily enrergy use with no heating is about 20 to 24 Kw/hrs per day.
If I charge to 60% overnight it leaves space for excess solar to charge. Then come 13-00 I can charge to 100% to last me right through to 04-00. I thought flux and intelligent flux sounded great but during off peak even with the heating off ( forgot- I have an air source heat pump) I could easily draw more that 3.6Kw which would mean drawing from the grid at peak time.
On most houses with gas heating you are never going to have a problem but if you have heat pump thats a whole new picture. I don't want to export anything. I want to use everything solar and off peak. When we do have the heating on we use about 40Kw/Hrs a day.
Our annual consumption is about 12000kw/hrs.
It would be great to be able to use intelligent flux and My Energy Optimser and just forget about it, but I don't think I can.
That's quite a high consumption over the year for IOF to handle, I reckon (unless you have the ability to generation more than that?)
Enjoyed your video Gary, very timely as my considering switching from Go / export lite to IOF or Flux. To avoid clipping I set my battery to only charge at a rate of approx 25% max charge to use the solar over a longer period to charge the battery , do you know of IOF charges the battery at max or a reduced rate ? Have you considered how IOF compares with the company you recently reviewed who mange your import / export for you for a monthly subscription ?
Thanks for you're very kind words :-)
So, on IOF, when your battery is charged by Octopus you pay the import rate at the time, but Octopus may benefit from a cheaper wholesale rate at the time - I believe Octopus tries always to charge during the greenest (i.e. cheapest) slots.
Regarding your question, I've still to do the modelling, but my gut feel is that Agile is better for me than IOF as the average Agile rate is 10-15p.
Thanks for your reply Gary, I may not have explained things very well . Now that we are getting more sunny days to avoid clipping I set my battery to charge from the solar array at between 0.75 kW & 1 kW which allows export throughout & prevents clipping whilst the battery is charging over an extended period. Does IOF do similar or does it charge at maximum , in my case 2.6 kW? You recently reviewed “My Energy Optimiser “ with Richard Pearce , the second part of my original question referred to how this compares with IOF and should I consider it as an alternative ? Thanks Alan Skinns
@@AlanS-uu5sy9vy8o Ah ok - on IOF, Octopus has full control over when and at what rate your battery charges. With MyEO, you determine what you want to happen (the charging rules) then MyEO executes that for you on a day to day basis. Hope this helps...
excellent
Cheers 😀🙏
Thanks Gary having watched most of your videos and as an Octopus coustomer I switched to Octopus Flux last year following your advise. I am know looking at Flexible Octopus Flux but I am not sure if I can do that with my system at this time my system has a Lux inverter and 3 Pylonteck batteries 1 US5000 & 2 US2000, what are your thoughts and is it possible to do so.
Thank you very much for the super thanks, John - very much appreciated. Now, if you're looking at Intelligent Octopus Flux, yeah - it's restricted to only GivEnergy batteries at the moment. But the non-intelligent version of Octopus Flux is also a very good tariff, and you might find if/when you're on it, you'll want to buy more of those Pylontechs! :-)
this seems like Octopus’ TEP which required a powerwall, but for givenergy? Net metering is a good benefit but my only wrinkle is the control Octopus have. I assume they’d export in the peak period and avoid import, but there are no guarantees there. If on average they avoid import during peak and make sure there is battery charge for that period (ideally force discharge but not essential) then its a year long battery like you mention. I’m curious how it compares to something like Intelligent octopus and always charging to 100% and letting all solar export at a higher price. slowly building up credit to cover winter lower solar generation
Good points! I'm planning to develop my utility so that can model over a whole year - quite a tall order, but should be achievable. The answers are coming...
Hi Gary great vid! Do you know if I have a 3.6kw inverter that I over size to say the 150% they allow would I still need a G99 application or would I be allowed to install without the grid authority/G99. Many thanks!
Based on the information you have given me, it looks like a G98 application, which is automatic. Your installer will be able to manage all this for you :-)
I have carried out multiple charge/discharge tests to calculate the efficiency of my 8.2kwh GivEnergy battery. Consistently the outcome is the same; at max (forced) charge/ discharge rate efficiency is under 70%. Improves slightly when charging/discharging at lower rates.
At 21p import and 28p export, there is a net loss when the battery is forced to export.
You're not the first person to quote 70% figures for GivEnergy in fact. As I have these batteries myself, I think I'm going to have to do a bit of digging...
Switched to intelligent flux today, but it's doing some very odd things.
Started exporting from my battery between 7-8.30 outside of peak and then again from 9-9.30.
Then it stopped using the battery and was importing from the grid even though the battery was at 50%.
What on earth...
Wow - that does sound a bit weird! Perhaps monitor over the next couple of days, and if carrier on behaving like that, just drop Octopus a note on hello@octopus.energy - hope it's all resolved soon!
@@GaryDoesSolar yeah, it's carried on doing it something is definitely borked. Gonna go back to standard flux, at least I know what's going on then. Reached out to octopus but don't expect an answer for a few days.
Interested in your thoughts on whether you plan to stay on IOF over winter or if you plan to switch back to agile or flux and when you might consider doing that?
We are currently on IOF and wondering if it will be more beneficial to switch in the next few months, our consumption will increase but not hugely as heating is gas still eg tumble drier. Many thanks
Hi Gabrielle, thanks for your question. So, in the follow-up one, on why I switched over to IOF, I mention at 8m15s that I was looking to get an EV in September and that would likely change things for me: ua-cam.com/video/l7blcY_fDMQ/v-deo.html
In fact, that happened in July when my ICE car broke down, and I made the switch to Intelligent Octopus Go. IOF is perhaps not ideal for EV owners as it substantially increases electricity usage--especially for higher mileage users--and that upsets the generation/usage ratio required for IOF.
It's hard to comment on your case without knowing the specifics, but if you've been on the tariff over the summer, you should now have a healthy balance on your energy account. The idea of course, is that balance will start to delete as it covers usage against less generation over the winter. And that of course, is the idea of the tariff. So, doing nothing and remaining with the tariff for a full year, is an option. Alternatively, you might want to try a tariff like Agile over the winter, when there are expected to be many price plunges etc. That way, you get experience of more tariffs before settling on something that you feel works best for your situation.
If you have an EV (or are thinking about getting one) I've yet to see a tariff from Octopus that is better than IOG, and there is now competition to IOG in the market from other providers too.
Hope this helps!
@@GaryDoesSolar thank you for taking the time to respond, your thoughts and opinions are helpful. We don't yet have an EV but taking on board your thoughts we may try a different tariff for the comparison and aim of saving, at least we have the option to switch back if not for us. Thanks again, it's appreciated.
Gary, am I right that I need a smart meter to take advantage of any of these tariffs?
Yes, that's the case.
I can tell you that the methodology behind the Intelligent Flux comes from the old Tesla Tariff, as I was on it for over a year. Charge to 100% overnight, dump at 5k into the grid at 16:00 on the dot. The first few weeks of that, after years of trying to avoid using mains at all was VERY disconcerting. The difference is that the Tesla Tariff was fixed rate all day (11p per kWh), and export was around a penny more than import to allow for the cycle loss of the battery. .
Would I change from the Flux Tariff I am on at present? Probably not. I really never got used to having no control over MY battery, as it became THEIR battery.
I could pull a charge every morning at off peak, and dump at 16:00hrs every day now, and make money from it, but I prefer to NOT use mains AT ALL if possible, but I am still happy to dump 30 to 40% into the mains at Peak, (if the following day will be bright enough to re-charge the battery on solar.) I make enough from that.
I think being able to tell folks that for 8 months of the year I use no mains power at all, and that over the year I get more from the sun than I use, (including charging the car), so essentially free power for the year, gives a better impression than saying that I can make money from the system.
I guess I feel that my way "Gives back" to the grid and helps with regard to saving energy, where as making money from the system seems like "Taking" and a bit mercenary. That view can be picked apart easily, but is my outlook on life. Giving something is more charitable than the trumpian "What's in it for ME?"
Thank you for a good explainer though, I had not heard of the Intelligent Tariff before now!
Great points throughout your comment - thanks!
Now that you mention about Octopus dropping the TEP, the rationale for the IOF tariff make more sense now. Am I correct in thinking that as a user, you could define the percentage of Powerwall that could be used for the VPP function? That would allow you to maintain your "don't draw from the grid" ambition, yeah?
@@GaryDoesSolar The minimum %age was set at 20% by Tesla. So, charge up to full in the early (otherwise Off Peak, except the Tesla Tariff was a single rate 24/7), morning, drain at 16:00Hrs until down to 20% again.
With the Flux tariff I have control again. I also now have a better idea of my usage, so, whereas last year I would only discharge to 75%, now I am happy to go to 60% (given a decent following day), knowing I can last until the following SunUp without resorting to the mains.
It does require keeping an eye on the SOC as once the level you have set is reached, the house load will start to pull FROM the mains. Discharge seems to stop at about 1% above the set limit, allowing time to switch back to "Use your own Solar" from the "Time Based Control" mode, and reset the limit back down to 20%.
This year looks like I may 'Pay Off' my January/February usage a month earlier (end of April) than previous years, so I am well chuffed. But then, it has been a mild winter on the whole!
@@coniow Thanks - great to know! 👍
It does sound good, but I don't know if the compensation is enough to account for someone else controlling the cycling of the battery, wearing down it's lifetime usage etc
Batteries typically allow for 6,000+ cycles these days, so if cycled once a day (as would happen with this tariff) that's almost 20 years...
Thanks for a good explanation. I have solar, battery and an EV and I think the EV drives me towards the Intelligent Octopus Go tariff. With Go, Octopus control my EV charging but not my battery.
I tend to agree - IOG is a superb tariff if you have an EV and you're doing a lot of miles...
Would love to see an Irish company try something like this! It is sorely needed.
Agreed - it would be good to see Octopus Energy operate there before long...
Gary, you have a glitch at 2:32. Only a little one.
Hi John, yeah - I'm annoyed about that - a problem when Final Cut Pro was a processing my video. It has never happened before either :-(
Is there a minimum battery size requirement for octopus to allow you on this tariff?
Such as the 9.5kWh so it is large enough to cover the 3 hour peak window?
Or can people with the GivEnergy 2.5 also go on this tarrif?
Hi David, yeah - my understanding is that you can use the tariff with any size of battery - but it’s worth checking that your usage over the peak period (4-7pm) is not greater than 80% of your battery size, otherwise you’ll be pulling from the grid at peak import rate.
Sadly my battery doesn’t qualify yet, but if it did then I’d certainly be on Intelligent flux for the summer period.
The way things are priced just now, Intelligent Go plus Outgoing Fixed offers only a marginally worse export price than Octopus flux (mine is fixed at 15p till October). I’m going to have to say, I’m sticking with Intelligent Go for the summer. The flexibility of being able to charge overnight cheap allowing multiple long distance drives on consecutive days is compelling. I don’t get that advantage with Flux.
All that said, while Intelligent flux is best for the summer, it’s still best to jump onto Intelligent Go for the winter just now. I suspect Octopus might just tweak the terms to oblige a 12 month minimum commitment to avoid this kind of game being played.
I would check the small print in the contract. I’m sure there was a clause which said if you come off the Intelligent Flux tariff you can’t rejoin it for 9 months.
Yeah, if I had an EV it'd be hard for me not to got for IOG, especially if I was clocking up a lot of miles...
I’m on IOG but finding EV charge scheduling of a BMW troublesome. Last week the car kicked off charging early (23:05 vs 23:25). I *think* it was still in the 7.5p slot, but there’s no obvious way to find out what my live charge rate is. I’m on the 40p/kWh FIT for a 2KW solar panel -not quite enough to charge the car, but if I went to a rate like tracker the lower daytime rate would mean I could charge the car with AC current throttled back and maybe actually go off grid for charging,
I moved to Intelligent Octopus Flux in late April. Export income is great, but one drawback I discovered the other day is in the event of a power outage. I have an EPS changeover switch and so used it when I had a power cut. Nothing happened !!! Reason - when Octopus take over your battery they take it out of Eco mode and so cannot supply your home. Because the internet is then down, you can't turn Eco mode back on, so you have no back up. Only a minor issue because power cuts are rare, nonetheless I paid the installer to enable EPS and OIF tariff renders it non operational.
Crikey! What model of battery do you have?
Thanks
Thanks for pointing me toward this tariff. Net metering on a big scale can't work, it pushes the network and storage costs to the people not being able to afford their own installations, this is the reason why it's rightly abandoned in the US and other places where it still exists. Great for the solar/battery owner if you can get it though!
@hans.vbaalen Thank you, Hans for the Super Thanks 😀👍🏻 and yeah, that’s what I’d been hearing about net metering tariffs too! Maybe this tariff will suffer the same fate if it gets too popular?
I am on Octopus but applied to use Scottish Power for SEG because Octopus will not accept Flexi Orb installations and only accept MCS. They do have a trail scheme but to apply is £250! How much generation would you need to make to get your money back. SP is offer 12p so that’s the best option for Flexi Orb installations that I can see.
Hi Jason, that's a question only you can answer I think...?
North Yorks decided batteries were too expensive so pulled them from their package to me. Not only that but then downsized the inverter so it couldn’t manage a battery pack so I can’t upgrade 😡
I have 15p. kw export rate. and my bank balance is my battery. I use summer income to pay for winter electricity. I’m further north now but it worked for me in S. Lincs.
I’m wondering if any rates are better with someone without battery option ?
Regards DB
Sorry to hear that - I think a battery is mandatory for this tariff, unfortunately.
Hi there, I’ve just switched to the intelligent flux. It’s quite scary as I’ve been trying to build my winter buffer to avoid going into negative equity. In your view is it worth doing? Does it actually save money?
Yeah, the optimum time to switch to IOF is at the beginning of summer, because that allows you build up that nice buffer to offset the winter costs. Now, joining now will mean you’ll have to make payments on your energy account in order to keep it in the black, but provided you generate more than you consume over the entire year, your balance should look healthy next summer 👍🏻
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks Gary, I’ve got some buffer saved so fingers crossed I’ll stay out of the red. I guess time will tell, many thanks for respnding
Sorry Gary. Just pulled the plug on Flux. Reasons? I can’t balance the average flux imports rates against the average Agile rates. Far more costly. Yes the flux export rate is higher than the fixed export rate but the drop in my import costs more than outweigh any extra export differential. Also no intelligent flux for PW2 6 months after announcement.
Yeah, I can understand that. I'm on Agile at the moment, and it's so good that it doesn't really make sense to try something like IOF...
Re. PW2, Tesla don't allow third party access as a matter of policy, and that's unlikely to change. Tesla is more about supplying product that just works (especially with their on VPP offering in some countries) and so they don't want other parties 'inside' their product causing issues, I'm thinking...
Can you do a video showing how energy companies make money when they offer a service that is designed to reduce your bill to almost zero.
Hi Alan, yeah - that's a good idea - it sounds counter-intuitive, but it all revolves around the wholesale price of electricity, which can go to zero (like it did today from midnight until 4pm) and can even go negative.
They’ll use your battery electricity at peak hours with their existing customers so not have to pay the power stations peak rate -or actually resell it. And you’re the one investing capital in the battery so they don’t have to. On those times when kWh are priced negatively (today!) they’ll turn every battery on, have it charge at max rate and then use in the evening for max revenue.
It appears you don’t have to give Octopus control for Intelligent.
I have a LuxPower system at my house and i am on Intelligent Flux but still in full control of my system. Either Octopus did an oopsie or the control is optional
Sounds like Octopus did an oopsie to me, but hey - maybe it’s all good 👍🏻
Very well presented and explained as always.
But my Tracker "Battery", as you refer to import, costs me nothing and is cheaper than this modified Flux tariff.
I'm running at an average cost on tracker of 16.43p per KWh.
"There is no economic reason for installing PV and/or batteries " discuss......
I'd love to see a costed reason why I am wrong. It's obvious to me that PV and batteries are a waste of money.
Do I need to join your patreon group to prove that I am correct?
I'm really not being deliberately awkward but it's just obvious to me that most if not all PV and battery installations are unsound on economic grounds.
When I worked for a living I often had to work out if a new piece of equipment was cost effective to buy. Using the same methods I can't see that domestic Solar and batteries can ever pay for itself.
Please can someone prove me wrong
It's one of the reasons why I developed those utilities - so people could model for themselves the costs and benefits of various investments. I'll leave to you as to whether it's worthwhile joining my Patreon to gain access to those utilities. I'd love to be able to offer them all for free, but they take thousands of hours to develop.
As regards your wider question, all I can say is that for my situation, there are both financial and environmental benefits. And for many, even if there were no financial benefits, they'd still do it to help the environment. There are plenty of people on UA-cam who feel the same.
@@GaryDoesSolar
We won't go there with the environment. There's a sort of religion where people believe that CO2 is responsible for climate change. The many scientists who argue against the 'religion' get no airing. But there are many videos out there of respected people showing at conferences how tenuous the argument for CO2 is. Volcanic activity is responsible for many times more CO2 and other green house gases than is generated because of human activity.
As a scientist myself I've looked at their papers and lectures and it's tenuous at best. Not a doubt that the climate is warming but there are other causes.
I won't be becoming a patreon. No disrespect , on tracker my electricity cost is about £800 per annum. A Tesla powerwall is £9000 + installation. Solar is £9000 for me. There is no way I can make money producing electricity at 33p or 53p.
As I say no disrespect intended. Your early videos made me question things and talk to others. Some of them are authors of well known monitoring apps. One of whom really made me think.
Just got our latest octopus statement apparently they failed to bill for gas since July 2023 and now expect us to pay a massive bill for their failure !!!. Also they said the meter that came with their smart meters doesn’t work with the tariff we are using !. I give up
Hi Steven, sorry to hear about this. How about asking Octopus for a repayment plan over 12 months. You can always go to the Ombudsman, but I know Octopus to be a fair company. Ultimately, you still owe the money for the gas consumed, but it's not your fault that Octopus failed to bill you, leaving you with a very large bill now.
@@GaryDoesSolar and thats the very issue Gary, do I owe this money or is it another octo miscalculation ? They did the very same a year or so ago ‘forgot’ to invoice for an entire years worth of electricity !. I wonder how many other people have ‘forgotten’ bills heading their way ???.
@@stevenbarrett7648 I would download the LOOP app and look at your actual smart meter data to see how much you actually used: loop.homes
Couldn't follow the argument about how all this helps to smooth the difference between the amount of solar generation between summer and winter(?).
Hi David, so in Summer, you'll likely be generating lots more solar generation than you can use, so it gets exported to the grid. And in winter, it's the opposite, your solar generation is less than the energy your require, so you're importing from the grid. But because the import and export rates are the same, the grid is essentially acting as an infinite battery. So, over the summer, you're building up a positive financial balance on your energy account due to all the paid export, then over the winter that balance depletes given the import you're paying for, Overall, it balances out, therefore a "smoothing" effect. Make sense?
Is that different from 'intelligent octopus'
Intelligent Octopus, the EV tariff was renamed to “Intelligent Octopus Go” in preparation for other intelligent tariffs. I know, it’s confusing!
I am trying to find the April 1st prices for io flux Eastern. But octopus won't tell me, told me to wait
Yeah, I had trouble getting prices too - had to ask someone who was on the tariff to send over the email they got...
@@GaryDoesSolar also just found out you can't join IO Flux if you have multiple Giv inverters. 1 inverter only, multiple batteries are fine. Limitations of the beta product I guess.
@@TrevorHa That's good to know - thanks!
It makes it easier to just shut off the grid during peak times.
Crikey - maybe a bit too much, but effective ;-)
I've had octopus flux for over 6 months exported over £60 back to grid not had a penny off them
I’d give them a quick call, or drop an email to hello@octopus.energy 👍🏻
@GaryDoesSolar yeah called them said send me a email link over 5 hours ago ... Still nothing
@HOSKIN5 ok, hopefully you’ll hear back tomorrow 👍🏻
Unfortunately Gary the UK's 3rd world infrastructure is on it's knees in most rural areas and although I can generate way more than I can use especially during the better months the DNO have refused any exporting.
Yeah, it's such a shame the UK can't be a world-leader here - we have all the pieces and so it just needs investment. And as an investment, it's pretty low risk! I despair sometimes...
My question is "Can I use Intelligent Octopus Flux and still have FIT payments?"
I would like to know this as well. I see my FIT "provider " , Good Energy, have just changed their T&Cs in that I now have tell them if I have a "storage sevice" installed.
@daviddb2528 I'm with Good Energy, too. I remember wondering what "storage service's" was.
@@edwardwilcox8982 I must admit I've only had the time (& inclination) Edward, to just skim their revised t&c's - there may be more detail down in the weeds. But I do feel a little mistrustful of them since they unilaterally changed the export payment tariff element of our FIT contact from calculated to measured. It's made a mockery of our initial return on investment calculations. The calculation of which over the sort of periods one is dealing with with solar I think is becoming increasingly thumb in the air. The thought of switching tariffs several times a year for maximum efficiency does not fill me with enthusiasm :-)
Hi Edward, apologies - I don't know too much about the UK FiT scheme, but hopefully other comments in this thread are helpful to you...
From what i can tell, intelligent flux is smarter. :)
Yeah, I was cynical before, but after analysing it, I actually really like it!
@@GaryDoesSolar I just meant it was smarter because it has intelligent in the name hehe 😀
So Octopus controls your battery and smart meter. Ok. But when its taken over it will be controlled by a foreign operator like all the suppliers and Will be milked for as much as they can get.
You could always change provider at that time, of course… 👍🏻
Or if your really concerned, move some where with lots of sun shine and a stream and live off grid to have ultimate control.
Shamefully control is largely out of our hand these days
I refuse to move my utilities to a company that has so many different tariffs. It’s just too confusing
I get where you're coming from - too much choice can be paralysing... But I'm hoping my videos help folks navigate through all the options to find out what best works for them...
Heard it all before with TEP. Started off great and then they screwed with it a little, then a little more, then a little more …oh look it’s not no longer beneficial to me at all!!
Thx but no thx octopus been there done that!
Sorry, your experience with TEP wasn't too great. I think it's coming back soon with Tesla Energy, which the company starts operating in the UK...
Great video Gary - unfortunately I'm having issues with the set up for switching as it gets stuck after logging into my GivEnergy account where it just hangs and won't go any further. I've emailed help@octopus and smart@octopus but they are not responding. Have you any suggestions on completing the set up? Thanks.
Hi Steve, I along with several others like yourself trying to sign up to IOG are having this problem! I have been in touch with both Givenergy & Octopus who in turn have liaised & advised that it is an Octopus issue . I am waiting for Octopus to resolve the issue !
Thanks- let’s hope it’s not too long a wait!
Thanks - now, they might be busy over the Easter weekend I guess - not least because the new rates came into force today, so a lot of prep within the business to prepare... I think you'll get a reply to your email in the next couple of days, fingers crossed!