Best Cards to Stay Alive | Commander Clash Podcast 109
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2023
- The crew discuss the best ways to stay alive in Commander and rate them in a tier list!
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I love that during the intro Tomer waves to us, the audience, and Crim waves back to Tomer lol
Couple goals
super adorable, the best smile on them too
So wholesome 😃😃😃
Tomer, you actually killed me in a game while I was under Teferi,s Pro and you proliferated me to 10 poison with you Ixhel deck.
gross lol
Died under teferi’s protection?! OP ban poison now!!!!
Dear god
Richard: "don't play so much spot removal and counters, have a good board state."
Me: "why didn't I think of that? I'll just tell my opponent not to interact with me."
Playing swords can impact your opponents’ interaction? Maybe hate bears?
Pretty sure Richard's whole playstyle and philosophies involve not being a noticeable threat, or deterring/disincentivizing people from attacking him, which I would assume comes from a "good but subtle boardstate".
From his thinking, playing spot removal draws aggression from the person he hit. And then he has "insurance" or failsafes like Maze of Ith when someone does swing at him.
@MiguelMaravilla that's fine in theory, but he assumes other players will always remove the threat so he doesn't have to. I prefer to have my own answers and be able to deal with any board state. Completely different play-styles. I'm closer to a Crim than a Richard
@@MiguelMaravillahonestly that makes complete sense but that gets blown up by smart people who can see that.
You should do an episode where the audience submit to you under played cards and you talk about it (maybe let them explain in like, 180 characters or whatever).
Mill can get around Teferi’s Protection, especially if you can force each player to draw a card
I side with Seth and Tomer on the board wipe discussion. I play 2 to 3. I have my draws to try to find them. If I lose, I lose, it's fine. It's maddening to play a game with a wipe every other turn.
Used to play the other way with more sweepers. Games tend to take too long, feel like you're doing too little since you're always setting up for your next sweeper so committing to the board isn't worth it.
Yeah I think playing more sweepers is probably optimal but it just ruins commander games when 2 board wipes get set off in the same game.
I love the cast but I would love more if I never had to hear them talk about Swords to Plowshares ever again 😂
It angers us, so they must keep doing it.
Richard’s spot removal take is so bad and it makes me want to slam my head against a wall lol
@@hanschristopherson8056literally his words “it doesn’t stop a craterhoof” then rates counterspell a B. His opinions are incredibly inconsistent with each other
@@jeremy45672not just that hardly anything stops a craterhoof that’s why it’s so strong.
We now need a tier list for “fog” cards just to see Crim melt lol
They already did that one.
Tbh 1 mana 1/1s with deathtouch like moss viper are really underrated for staving off early attacks
I stuck the 1 mana 1/1 with deathtouch from Kamigawa in my Anikthea deck for that very reason, Fang of Shigeki, maybe? Obv, has enchantment synergies too.
@@jamesmoore1476 Hell yeah, it is Fang of Shigeki, and I personally love that card in my Pharika snake enchantress deck.
Absolutely. Baleful Strix is legitimately the best version of Ghostly Prison ever printed.
My lovely little sickly rat
@@Kestral287bro thank you I’ve been debating on putting it in my deck but when you put it that way it’s actually insane because even late game it’s a two mana cycle that’s still a good blocker
On the topic of ghostly prison and its kin, i think this episode has cemented a hot take in my mind.
Ghostly prison is a burn spell.
The value is less in the damage you prevent, and is much more in the damage other people take.
The only thing is ghostly prison doesn’t give your opponents incentive to attack, just makes it hard to attack you. Cards like Edric, Karazikar, Ludevic, Breena, Belbe, etc which actually make your opponents want to attack other people I think can be considered burn.
Ghostly Prison and Propaganda effects are incredible. The number of times I know I am the target and have watched some green player spend all their mana preparing for combat to go lethal on me and then me saying "are you going to pay 2?"...
everything's a block card
@@Muongoing.97cthe incentive is that attacking other players dont cost 2 per creature, and it is a really big incentive against decks and players that want to attack everytime
That's why I like Norn's Annex in aggro decks. You either leave me alone or you swing and do some of my work for me.
Taunt from the Rampart is the BEST NEW CARD and it goes into EVERY Red/White deck. The more people start losing to this card the more they will realize the strength of it.
Super mid
Hoping to see inkshield on here it's one of my favorite forms of protection because it also wins you the game if you use it right
Inkshield is incredible! Once used it against a Voltron deck swinging for 25 commander damage and was able to wipe out the entire table next turn.
Inkshield is completely broken! I love it
Lol, the first time my buddy used inksheild I was swinging for 40+ damage to win game.
He inksheilded thinking he would win, then I responded with my own fog...
@@ivrissgaming8006 that's hilarious
@@ivrissgaming8006 I don't think that interaction works. As the person being damaged, your friend would get to choose whether to apply his Inkshield or your fog.
I honestly think the thing that keeps be alive the most is definitely just not being the threat.
Tomer, playing onboard value creatures isn't "blockers." Baleful striix, Solemn, and Wood Elves are where you want to be.
Richard around 38:00 - "what about a creature that blocks and gives you some value? isn't that kinda a Ghostly Prison effect?"
everyone else - "no, that's a blocker"
Richard - *surprised pikachu face* :O
I prefer Swords to Gifts, generally, because mana is so important. I like Gifts fine, but 1 mana is so much easier to fit into your curve than 3 mana.
Inkshield isn't a fog, it's a win condition. I almost feel bad for running it because it's basically Insurrection. Someone builds a board, but you kill them for it. I have never not won after casting it.
I got an Inkshield played against me with a Coat of Arms in play.
The only thing cooler, was the Chain Reaction I followed it up with 😂
It ended up being over 10,000 damage from a single spell.
Seems good
Richard is the sole reason I started playing a couple land removals in every deck. Not MLD, just a few ways to get rid of Maze's, Gaea's Cradle/Growing Rites, etc. I have seen Richard completely control games with Maze and the rest of you are severely underestimating it. I usually use the lands that blow up non-basics.
I’ll take Ophiomancer over Ghostly Prison every time lol
Not in enchantress decks. Also they didn't talk about the importance of flying creatures. Prison/Propaganda works on those while Ophie doesn't. I would play him in most sacrifice decks though.
@@shayneweyker "works" on them, unless your opponent chooses to just pay the 2. As for enchantress, I'd probably just go with Authority of Consuls or Blind Obedience at that point. Functionally similar in saving you life, but also do other things (like stopping/delaying combos or draining) and don't give your opponents any choice.
Seth, the Rhystic Study only drew 20 cards because you wouldn't pay the one.
He needs to be teached by arena zoomers to pay the one
I have been saved by Trickbind countless times. I've saved the table from Basalt Monolith combo, Deadeye/Temur Sabertooth combo, Thoracle, and more so many times. The clause that they can't activate the abilities on the card again is super understated.
0:10 “we’re gonna rank them by categories, things like counterspells, like spot removal, like swords to plowshares.” Lol cards so good it got its own category!
In the latest Commander Clash Episode S15E11 Richard has shown us at 01:18:00 how important spot removal is! It prevented an opponent from winning the game. I still do not get why he rates spot removal so low....nevertheless love your content! :)
EDIT: But I want to give him credit for pointing out that fog-effects are worth considering. I was sceptical, tried it, and turns out somtimes they are life-saving as he argues :)
Because everyone else runs spot removal for him 😂
He is against running a lot of spot removal. He has 1-2 spot removal just for those moments
I play Blessed Respite in basically all of my green decks these days. It's similar to Angelsong, except instead of having Cycling it has the added value of being a panic button against opposing graveyard shenanigans. It can also save your graveyard from being exiled if that's something you care about, and buys you a whole lot of time against mill. I find the card to be very rarely dead.
In Commander i would say swords is the most important removal, because of all the kill on sight commanders like niv.
"In my aggro decks I'd play like 9...You can't out aggro the board"
If you're looking to sweeper your opponents out of the game, you're not playing an aggro deck.
Exile is extremely relevant with targeted removal, coupled with efficiency make things like Deadly Rollick, Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares extremely good. Especially non CEDH where you have a lot of creature decks. Exile means I don’t have to deal with it anymore, for little to no mana.
Authority of the consuls!
It deters attacking, because their new stuff cant block, Also tons of lifegain. Its a bit of a half measure, but it really makes you able to hold your wrath for a while extra.
A half measure that's still a really good half measure for 1 mana is still really good. Definitely love that card.
@@zoeysheldon5634 Played it alongside crowd favorites like approach of the second sun and glacial chasm. It acrews so much value, but it reads like nothing, so people just cant find it in their heart to use a removal. Wonderful.
Fog is underrated I played final glory after killing two opponents and got fogged on the extra turn 😅
Love seeing all the eyes on FaB and brightlights looks so amazing
Tomer should host because he's actually aware of and cares about the format and structure of the podcasts
I don't know that he needs the extra work.
What do you mean?
I'm definitely in the camp of blockers as deterrents matters. The case I make (feel free to call it a cope case) is my pet card Wall of Frost. It exists only to block. It contributes nothing to advancing my deck's main strategy, it won't ever outright remove value from the table, and even in its one role it can be defeated by evasion. Despite every argument against it, though, my experience with it has been that nobody wants to impede their strategy when the choice presents itself and the alternative is just not being impeded; people don't ramp into their attack-for-value commanders and give them haste boots just to attack with them every other turn. At times it doesn't even matter that the 0/7 would die for it; if somebody's racing to get value and lower life before their threat is removed, the math of spending two turns just to get rid of one guy I don't need to win just isn't there.
Sure, the tit-for-tat of people spot-removing each other's stuff still happens and there'll be a time when a board wipe is the answer, but through that process I'm avoiding losing my life and important pieces by not getting caught in the scuffles. If I end up ahead I'm the archenemy either way, but if I don't end up ahead the next best thing is to not be the one that's closest to being knocked out, and in the end that's what blockers do.
Shout out to Soul Shatter, my new favorite narrow removal spell
I have yet to play it but my favorite instant is crackling doom so I probably should.
Fun fact: you can still attack a player that has resolved a Teferi's Protection. They wont take any combat damage, but you still get to declare attackers and receive any bonuses that may provide you.
And get them with the questing beast still doing damage
I really love Lightmine Field for this purpose. Really underrated card vs token heavy decks
I just read that card, and as a token player, I must quote the heavy: "I fear no man, but that thing... it scares me."
I don't think I've ever seen that card. That's a really cool "don't attack me" card!
If you really don't want people attacking you, pair the Lightmine Field with Repercussion.
It hits your own creatures as well so what is the plan here exactly?
@@starchaser6024 stax em out
Pillowfort is great to get into a 1v1 and then getting second place most of the time
If you build your fort right you win 1v1s.
Here are my two favorite removal spells:
Mystic Subdual: I value the ability to turn off a broken commander at instant speed. This can often neuter a deck.
Baleful Mastery: "Exile target creature. Draw a card." is how this reads to me. Every game has an archenemy. Every game has an underdog. It's the removal version of Hunted Horror (which I think is good).
note: you can still get infinitely wheeled if you cast Teferis protection on someone elses turn. it does not protect your hand, GY or library.
Different format note; likewise, the one ring doesn't stop me from searching your library, had someone rage quit to that
I believe Ghostly Prison should either be a high A rank or an S rank. If Tomer hates "do you pay the one" from Rhystic Study then he should absolutely hate this card as well. GP makes it so if you have say..5 mana and you want to do 5 mana worth of card/ability and attack..welp..you have to choose one or the other. Either do some combination up to 3 mana and then attack with ONE creature or do something else. It disrupts your plans (both in building your board and attacking) and makes YOU choose between something instead of being able to do what you want. Its a great card so if you're using white cards (in most cases) use this card.
1:17:09 Taunt From The Rampart is just insane tbh, lean back for a whole turn cycle and watch their creatures go berserk and kill everyone. Fun. It literally protects you from losing, since you are going to win on the spot 😂
isnt playerremoval the best protection (and removal)?
if the opponent is ded, he cant harm anyone!
If someone told me they ran 9 board wipes I would probably just play with them the one time lol
My boros voltron deck runs many of the board wipes that leave just one thing alive for each player, but it also then wins the game.
For blockers.... Silent Arbiter. Kept me in games for way longer than I should have been there.
Fogs are amazing, i once soft locked my opponents by using constant mists with a unflipped thaumatic compass so 8 could keep sacing lands for buyback, then search up a new land for next tirn
If you aren't going to pay the 1 to prevent a card draw, you'll never pay the 2 to attack.
Even playing Archon of Absolution, which is a Ghostly Prison but only costs 1 to attack, people would just rather play their spells than attack when given the choice, and it very much does force that choice to be made.
Please can you show us your paper decks? You guys always talk about this deck and that deck. I really want to see them :D.
Spot removal for creatures and counter spells when available is absolutely mandatory because every single commander is kill on sight, and sometimes even spot removal isn't enough because the combos are instant speed themselves.
They're a little mana intensive, but I have a real soft spot for Time Stop cards. Functionally they won't often be better or even as good as a Cryptic Command, but those edge cases where it ruins a plan are great.
I'm also a fan of Time Stop. I agree it's definitely more of a defensive card and won't help you push for a knockout like Cryptic Command can, but I honestly think of it as blue's premium version of Teferi's Protection, since the only way Teferi's Protection can do its job better is to not even let the opponent advance their board state or get you with an alternative win condition. With its cost though I do think Time Stop mostly makes sense in decks that are either good at making treasures or having other mana outlets at instant speed.
Where would you put Stunning Reversal? It stops both combat damage as well as combos but does not stop infect/commander damage. But the one thing i love about it is draw 7 usually gives you a good chance of getting a card you need to get out of the bad situation
Barrier breach can be used as multi target removal (especially against enchantment creatures) or card draw
I killed a Teferi's Protection player with a Skullcrack in my Yoshimaru boros legends deck, its only ever happened 1 time but it was incredible
The people that complain about interactions, counter magic and sweepers are also the people aggressively dumping their entire hands onto the board in a mad dash to say "I win!"
That's why to be good to them, and help teach them that magic is about more than having a good opening hand and dropping it onto the table, we punish them.
I like Angel's grace for oracle combo.
53:00 Also bear in mind that a lot of the fogs are in green. Guess what green doesn't have much of. If you guessed wraths, good job, you've been paying attention.
Back in my day we used walls and COPs.
You can't compare swords to plowshares to an efficient Artefakt removal. Swords is good in every deck because there is not a Single deck without creatures. But there are decks without enchantments, or even without Artefakts, except maybe an Solring.
Fog can be used at instant speed to prevent an opponent from alpha striking another opponent, thereby leaving the attacker who thought they had a kill completely open to a revenge death, and you buy yourself a temporary ally.
Nesting Grounds plus Glacial Chasm
Legit, Bothersome Quasit has been amazing as the only goad card in decks that cast non-creature spells, which is a lot of them!! Can't believe how much value and free attacks you can get with it, and it's mega budget
Tomer, definitely pick up the original Invasion foil Rout drawn by Ron Spencer. Currently $29.99 for NM on Card Kingdom which I think is a good deal considering the age of the set.
You all Forgot about the Second best blocker behind Baleful Strix.
Gonti, Lord of Luxury.
Also Specifically to Richard : Have you ever tried Nadaar, Selfless Paladin? It seems like a card that specifically is built for you. He provides Value, gets in Small bits of Chip damage and can Block.
1B: Choose one: bounce target creature, or prevent all combat damage until end of turn. Print it, let's turn Crim to the dark side
The thing with infect is that it still deals damage, the damage is just in the form of poison counters instead of changing the life total. You will still need to stop damage prevention if you go pure infect, but as long as the teferi's pro player has poison counters you can always proliferate since it is targeting the counters, not the players
I think at the top they should have had a discussion around whether you want to stay alive because halfway through this Seth defends his choices by saying he would rather die and start another game and several agreed with that. So the choice of staying alive is probably an important thing to consider before putting cards in your deck to achieve it.
I like how everybody is so down on fogs even though nobody has won a game against a constant mist player in commander clash history
Y'all love sweepers way to much. They don't let you win. Richard goes hard on advancing board state, except when it comes to blowing all your mana and letting your opponents deploy before you. Have 1-3 as a safety valve in case you need it. But usually you're losing out by being the one wrathing.
i was playing my own frodo food deck the other night... we had three wraths.... and i popped offcreated a bunch of squirrel tokens.... had nadier nightbalde out and wrathed myself to kill the table :)
I believe you can proliferate the final poison counter onto an opponent after Teferi’s Pro
They underrate Maze of Ith a little because they left out all the cool tricks and politics. Like the ability to protect other players against the archenemy or prevent a big creature from hitting them in return for a good favor. Maze can also be used to untap an opponents attacker after damaging someone else as a reward/incentive for attacking that player. Or it can be used to untap your own creature after it gets blocked or to untap it after damage in combat if not blocked like with Reconnaissance.
In the first category there is also Stasis Coffin.
I think Nature's claim is just as, if not better, then swords when it comes to single target removal that's narrow
It covers 2 types that tend to be win conditions. Stuff like KCI, Bolas citadel, miraris wake, Zendikar resurgent, fiery emancipation etc.
Maze of Ith is fantastic in life gain decks because stopping one creature helps with commander damage
Honestly I usually don't run a lot of board wipes. But in the one Mardu deck I built I had like 5-10 board wipes. I've casted 3-5 of them in one game, in which I was behind and there was a win on the way from the opponents and the board wipes saved the game.
Also you guys ever fog against akroma's will? You cant cast board wipes at instant speed.
I removed Curse of Opulence from my Prismari deck because every time it went on an opponent, it would get the table to hit me instead of them. lol
Cast it on yourself, I got way more value out of it. It's like red ghostly prison, except you get the mana.
The opponents' mindset completely changes. Like you eluded to, noone wants to give you that treasure!
Richard’s ghostly prison argument fell on deaf ears. He literally wins most of his games because he has light pillow fort and is out of lethal range but not doing anything super scary until he wins. He’s playing like good defense vs gambling on a steal to go with a sports ball metaphor
come on.. Fog Meta babyyyyy.. I've recently become a believer in the fog meta. My LGS EDH Night has a fair amount of "one-shot by Commander", and the fog meta has saved me quite a few times.
I agree that life gain is a B. It does nothing against any sort of infinite combo, and every deck has a way to negate it in the form of commander damage, but obviously this might not be applicable to all decks.
I disagree with not liking specific spot removal. Creatures are in almost every game, but Artifacts are definitely in every single game. In my playgroup at least 1-2 people on the table also always have a strong enchantment (while it may not be winning the game, it adds a lot of power to their board like parallel lives)
They should have probably have put Parallax Wave in with Ghostly Prison effects or targeted removal.
Blue and red is kind of ignored in the spot removal discussion. Would be interested to hear opinions in these colors specifically. Obviously you have some options in red and blue has counter spells, but feels like there’s a discussion there.
Blue also has premium creature removal. Pongify and Rapid Hybridization aren't quite Swords to Plowshares but they're fairly often similar. Reality Shift and Resculpt are two mana, but Resculpt has multiple sets of targets and Reality Shift is sometimes a combo piece.
As someone with a firkraag half goad half dragons deck i can safely say people just hit you with every non goaded creature possible bc it makes them feel better to "choose" their own attacks
I feel like analyzing removal/protection as single cards is incorrect. Eg, if you're playing a white deck that's light on removal because of synergies, playing swords + teferi's pro + generous gift covers a majority of situations. Then if you want to run the full suite of ten, you can fill out with other options/redundant effects (like lapse of certainty, reprieve, mana tithe lol).
Solemnity + Delaying Shield + Phyrexian Unlife
Let's go!
Tomer and Crim are so wrong on fog. Almost every time I have a fog in my hand it has lead to me winning the game. They are so good.
Normal people: "fog"
Seth: "faaahg"
Custom card idea:
Field of Pozeys. Land
(T): Goad target creature. Activate only during non-combat steps.
Would this be busted? I wouldn’t want to actually see it, but the cast made it come to mind
Its not sol ring busted, but for casual commander, this is significantly better than your average utility land, goad for small utility creatures/commanders might aswell be removal most of the time.
90+ minutes and no mention of Peacekeeper 🥺
It's cool but fragile and mana-intensive and outside of pure combo most people don't want to ban all attacks. With Moat you can at least play fliers.
Swords deals with indestructible creatures, creatures with regenerate, undying/persist creatures, creatures in a deck with recursion, etc. Generous Gift and Beast Within don’t.
Ulamog is the best spot removal 😎
On the fog conversation, I am old enough to have played Moment's Peace on Heartbeat combo, but most of the scenarios they are saying fogs are good, are just the perfect place that doesn't happen most of the time. And this idea that both of you have a big board and they attack you... this seems bad, it is usually bad, the game favours the blocking player, if we both have a big board, I shouldn't be attacking, as a rule of thumb. On a four player format, fog is even worse, because there are other two players turns before you go again.
It is true that are some decks that cannot win against Constants Mists, but it is also true that a lot of decks just don't care, these seems counterintuitive with ther argument that "swords doesn't kill everything", so what is it? At least most people have a creature as a Commander, so you will have a target for swords.
I think you can be milled out when you are under Teferis protection.
Propaganda effects are very mana efficient compared to wraithing a bunch or using spot removal
Fogs have saved my ass way more than most of these other cards. So I don’t get the hate on them in this. Craterhoof is a huge problem in my playgroup. I do like to run settle the wreckage and aetherize as well for these scenarios
Seth's card should have been stunning reversal.
Don't remind me
Tef Pro doesn't help against mill either. Library is not protected as long as you aren't targeting the phased player.
Don't play fog, but play one sided fogs, like comeuppance and riot control. Everyone else dies to the hoof but you're safe 😉
Fogs are incredibly underrated! Tomer and Crim are crazy.
Fogs don't go infinite or win the game on the spot, so of course Tomer considers them F tier.
@@dontmisunderstand6041I can't count the number of times a fog has given me the lethal backswing to win a game. My play groups all keep in mind that I run fogs.
Play Inkshield. A fog that wins you the game
They left out one of the better fogs in Tangle that makes attacking creatures not untap next turn. It prevents two attacks by the affected creatures and allows two counter-attacks. And allows for the fun trick of playing it after someone has already damaged an opponent with a big attack so the damage isn't prevented but the attacking creatures are still tapped an extra turn cycle. Also with all the new proliferate and hardened scales type spells the ignored Spike Weaver keeps getting better.
@@atk9989 Back when the original Innistrad block was still new, one of my playgroup made a werewolf fog deck that got pretty gnarly. Fogs are just really good utility cards. They protect your creatures, protect your life total, help you pump through extra damage that you otherwise wouldn't (in the case of the one-sided fogs).
have milled someone out while they teferi's protectioned
Waiting for power crept generous gift? I gotchu