Wait that would work because you are controlling your opponent and Wurm can be cast. But I don't know any way to put one of your cards into their deck.
Siberian is right, the Judge Discord had a consensus a while ago that if the Selvala+Panglacial interaction ever comes up, instant DQ, no questions asked
@@GodKiller97 Nah, you've already come out on top by that point so the DQ is the icing on the cake. Think abt it Your goal for playing then is: 1. Play the "combo", and get an illegal action going 2. Make everyone who knows whats going on have a good laugh 3. Get a very grumpy judge who now has to deal with you In conclusion: Them DQing you means that you've definitely succeeded in everything you were going for, thereby, you've won 10x over already with that play. Literally going out with incredible sass and style.
Selvala yeah, but it was a semi real thing in modern with chromatic sphere at one point. Mono green tron plays stars and spheres to get colored mana from tron lands and an extra giant creature that can be drawn for free with say, an Expedition map is a valuable card to put in your deck.
Also, a personal favorite that i have used to win games before: Discarding a land during the cleanup step while The Gitrog Monster is on the field Gitrog makes you to draw a card whenever a land is put into the graveyard from anywhere. During the cleanup step, you discard down to your current maximum hand size (generally 7), and nobody has priority, meaning you can't cast spells or activitie abilities. However, if you discard a land, it'll trigger The Gitrog Monster. Because an ability was put on the stack, it is still the cleanup step, but you now have priority, and can cast spells. You still pass priority, so other than players having priority during cleanup step, there's nothing too weird happening. What makes this weird is "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects go away during the cleanup step. So, if an opponent cast Silence, which just says "Your opponents can't cast spells this turn", you can't cast anything. But by moving to cleanup and discarding a land, you can gain priority after Silence's effect ends, and cast spells at instant speed. Then, once the draw resolves, another cleanup step happens. You'll likely still be above the 7 card limit, since you discarded 1 card then drew 1 card, so you can discard another land to draw another card. This gets even crazier if you have Dakmor Salvage in your hand/graveyard, because you can replace all those draw triggers with milling 2, and put Dakmor back into your hand so you still end up replacing the card discarded.
@MaestroAlvis Alright, here's how you do it: -Have at least 1 black mana available -Discard Dakmor Salvage -Gitrog triggers, drawing a card -Dakmor Salvage allows you to mill 2 and put it into your hand instead of drawing -Rinse and repeat for infinite mill, drawing 1 card everytime you mill a land. -Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre recycle your graveyard when milled or discarded, so you never run out of cards. -You can now discard and draw forever until you draw Dark Ritual and Crown of Oblivion. Use Dark Ritual to cast the Crown, leaving 1 mana floating. -Repeat the loop again, this time using Crown of Oblivion to discard instead of moving to the next cleanup. This allows us to keep that 1 mana floating from the Dark Ritual, which will get shuffled back in by an Eldrazi. -Draw into Dark Ritual again, use the remaining 1 mana from earlier to cast it, rinse and repeat for infinite black mana. -With infinite mana, you can then play Orcish Bowmaster, ping for 1 damage, cast removal on your own Bowmasters, and loop your Bowmasters and removal the same way you looped Dark Ritual. Congratulations, you have won the game at instant speed during the cleanup step by discarding a land.
@@MaestroAlvisI don’t have a precise answer, but the Gitrog Monster competitive EDH/Commander deck attempts to do this whole cleanup step shenanigan with dakmor salvage to win so checking out play/combo guides for that deck would be helpful
The thing with Pithing Needle that he skipped over is a rule sharking thing someone pulled a couple years ago. Basically, in the original Ravnica block, there was a legendary creature called Borborygmos. In the much more recent Return to Ravnica, there was a retrain of Borborygmos called Borborygmos Enraged. Also in Return to Ravnica was the card Pithing Needle, which essentially works like Prohibition - name a card, that card's activated abilities can't be activated. In a major tournament, a player cast Pithing Needle, and declared "Borborygmos". His opponent acknowledged this and let it resolve, then summoned Borborygmos Enraged and activated its ability, pointing out that "Borborygmos" is a different card entirely. This caused a massive kerfuffle, and led to the creation of the ruling "You don't have to state the exact perfect name for cards like Pithing Needle, if both players know the card you mean that's good enough." Major nerf to Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar imo.
he could/should make a whole video on it, i bet ygo players would get a kick out of it. also how hard is it to say Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar i mean really
Quicksilver Elemental had a brief, ridiculous interaction with planeswalkers that could become creatures. Planeswalkers can only activate their abilities once per turn, but that restriction USED TO BE tied specifically to the "Planeswalker" card type. You could activate Quicksilver Elemental targeting your own Gideon Jura (or similar), use its plus ability one morbillion times, then use the ultimate ability however many times you wanted. The "Planeswalker" rule got changed soon after, but it was hilarious to consider.
At least they addressed the problem. Most of the problem cards in the video are that way because it's not really worth the time to have people debate cards that nobody plays.
Okay but imagine if at the point of tribute summoning a card you could activate any affect that would put a monster on your field and none of it goes on chain
the funny thing is that Season of the Witch ruling has been decided to be whatever the current MTG rules manager decide on. It currently has no ruling because the current rules manager has not ruled on it yet.
I honestly never understood why people act like Season of the Witch is confusing. Maybe it used to be, but nowadays we have Goad, and Goad runs the exact same checks as Season of the Witch does.
Panglacial wurm is playable in a very fringe cEDH deck called Raggadraga. It enables you to turn any green creature tutor into a one card win condition as long as you have raggadraga and any dork out that adds mana equal to it's power. Raggadraga says that when you cast a spell and spend 7 or more mana on it (ragga does not look for cmc btw), you can untap any creature and give it +7/+7 until end of turn. So you cast the green tutor with at least 7 mana, ragga untaps your dork. You tap it before the green tutor resolves to make at least 7-8 more mana, then resolve the green tutor. In the middle of tutoring you declare you're going to cast panglacial. You resolve the green tutor and find Temur sabertooth, which lets you pay 2 green mana to bounce a creature you control to your hand. You use your floating mana to cast panglacial, which is a 7 mana spell. Ragga triggers and untaps your power-matters dork, so that it now taps for at least 14 mana. You can then bounce and recast panglacial wurm infinitely to produce infinite mana, and also infinitely pump your board.
You can also just toss Panglacial into a casual green EDH deck and watch the confusion on your opponent's faces when you have a 9/7 after cracking a fetch. Feels great.
There's a guy called MaxMakesMagic on here, he has a lot of videos covering weird things you can do in MTG, like turning two planeswalkers into auras enchanting each other, or putting your entire deck in the command zone.
@@vxicepickxv Several! For anyone who's curious: Take any noncreature artifact, say a Darksteel Pendant. Cast March of the Machines, which turns all noncreature artifacts into creatures. Summon Neurok Transmuter and use its ability to turn your animated Darksteel Pendant into a blue nonartifact. The Darksteel Pendant is now not an artifact because of Transmuter, so March of the Machines isn't turning it into a creature either, so it's... Nothing. It's a blue *static noises*.
I love the video on putting your deck into your command zone. You don't really have any win cons, but man the psychological damage you inflict on your opponents is great.
Imagine using Opposition Agent against an opponent with Chromatic Sphere and Selvala in play, then when they search their library for something, you see Panglacial Wurm, and since you control them during this time you make them cast it, using Sphere and Selvala to try and pay for it, but then Selvala gets no mana at all; which player gets DQ'd for all this?
You would be the one on the receiving end of the judge call. You are the one who is attempting to perform an illegal action. For the same reason you can't mindslaver someone then cast a spell without paying for it to get them disqualified.
After the errata, Ertai's Meddling has a funny interaction with casting morph creatures. Morphs are cast face-down, but when a card changes zones it will be put face-up unless otherwise stated. When the last counter gets removed, you return the spell to the stack face-up, as a copy of that original morph spell. This means that once it resolves it will be a face-up, 2/2, colorless, nameless creature with no abilities. Since it isn't face-down it can't be turned face-up to stop being a morph anymore.
There's a reason I went through the training course to become a Rules Advisor after I started playing competitive MTG because gods do you get some weird interactions when you've got almost every single heavy hitter that has ever been printed in the game available to you at the same time, especially when their are 4 people with their boards to consider. One of my favorite rulings I've come across is that you can essentially counter Deathrite Shaman's MANA ABILITY (which technically isn't a mana ability and uses the stack) by removing the land it is targeting from the graveyard. And why is that something you can do? Because it says "target" in the text of the ability meaning it has to be able to target something which means there is a round of priority whenever you use that ability, so you can change the target to something else with things like Ricochet Trap or remove the target from the graveyard with things like Noxious Revival. In the case of removing the target from the graveyard you make the ability fizzle essentially countering the ability and denying the controller mana. This has been a rant about my favorite ruling I've encountered so far.
See I don't think Selvala is actually a problem. Easily avoidable, you just tap selvala before casting the spell. You're allowed to do that. You can tap things for mana without casting a spell.
@@HomeCookinMTG The problem is that you can do it WHILE you're casting the spell. Sure it's avoidable but you're gonna have people who forget.... or who are doing it intentionally.
@@zackkelley2940 But the thing is, doing it intentionally doesn't do anything other than give you a miniscule amount of information, and in practice the whole "you can do it WHILE casting a spell" really only comes up on MTGO or w/e. The reality of it is this card sees play in exactly 1 format, commander, which is largely casual, and these interactions basically don't come up.
@@HomeCookinMTG WAS largely casual. It still can be but with how much they've been pushing cards for the format it is... decidedly less casual. And yes it's probably not going to come up very often but a minor problem is still a problem.
@@zackkelley2940 like I said the only time you're ever going to see this is on mtgo because that's the only time that the logistics of paying Mana as you're casting a spell actually matters, and on mtgo there's no rules nightmare because there you don't have to talk to a judge the program takes care of it for you. In practice in a paper game you're just going to activate the selvala first. And the only Advantage you get from intentionally doing this is knowing what your opponents are going to draw next. Maybe there's a corner case scenario where that information is relevant but if you're playing in a metagame where people are activating selvala while casting a spell knowing that they won't have enough Mana to resolve it just to get information, then your pod already has an understanding of how the rules interaction works and it's not really a nightmare
8:40 these weird edge case scenarios sound like things you cant just stumble into. Like they are situations that you have to intentionally create. The average player wouldn't "try to cast something" and then do other actions to try to generate enough mana to actually cast the thing, but then realize they didnt make enough mana and create this weird situation. The average player would just go "Do I have enough mana? Yes? I cast the thing."
Being able to pay costs mid-casting is a useful QoL. There are only problems with: 1) Any mana ability that produces a random amount of mana 2) non reversible mana abilities (exemple: Sylvalla. You can undraw the card but not unreveal it) Any ability that targets (even if it produces mana) isn't a mana ability so they can only be played at best at instant speed and doesn't cause issues 1) is functionally the same as not counting correctly before trying to cast. It's an illegal game action, but usually the only penalty is that now your opponent knows you have that card in your hand because it's easily reversible (you are allowed to tell your opponents what cards you have in hand/library/face down/other hidden zone, and you can lie about it)
Most players casually cast spells or activate abilities by floating the mana beforehand and THEN doing it, rather than announce that they're casting the spell THEN try to produce the mana. Which is completely valid according to the rules. So those edge cases with mana abilities that come with additional effects literally do not alter gamestates in the middle of an ability's resolution for casual players (or most competitive players not trying to actively cheat by finding rules loopholes that judges can't figure out).
@dontmisunderstand6041 i can't be sure but I think the reason the rules are written this way is because wotc didn't want people having to "keep track" of their floating mana, and have it disappear because of poor planning. Suppose I tap a swamp for a floating black mana, then I reconsider my action. Nothing is tieing the floating mana to the swamp, so strictly speaking i can't just take the action back. I now have to move forward remembering that I have unspent mana. Rules as written mean you can keep that swamp untapped until the very last instant before making an irreversible action that actually matters.
The most recent funny interaction I've discovered is Scourge of the Skyclaves and Nethroi, Apex of Death. Nethroi, when it mutates, can revive any number of creatures from the GY that have a combined power of 10 or less. It's a simple enough effect that makes sense when you branch it out. You can revive 10 1/1s or a 5/5 and any number of 0/xs etc. Scourge is unique in that its power and toughness are always 20 - the highest life total of all players. In a game of Commander for instance, the highest life total might be 40, so what does that mean? Well, it means that in the graveyard, Scourge has a power of -20. This means that as long as you're reviving Scourge, you can also revive very high power creatures like Emrakul or Impervious Greatwurm alongside it.
Yup. Your life total used to be able to go negative and counted as such for all effects as well so Death's Shadow could become larger then a 13/13 with phyrexian unlife
@@velphidrow Your life total still can be a negative number, if you have a way to still be considered a player in the game at that point (which means not having lost the game yet).
Surprised Crystalline Giant wasn't among those cards... that card basically required you to put pieces of paper/counters in a sack to draw from in what it could gain via its ability...
There’s some other fun interactions that used to happen. Mana Vault allowed you to win BETWEEN turns since it basically puts a trigger before starting a turn, and after ending a turn. So then you can do certain actions during this “phase” which meant you could basically act during a non-open gamestate. Rain of Gore is also another “why tf does it work like that?” It’s basically Nurse Burn where any ability that gains life = burn. HOWEVER there is a keyword called Lifelink which is if a creature does damage, you heal for the same amount. This however is not a spell or ability that inherently causes you to gain life; the damage done by the creature causes you to gain life. For that reason you can still heal off lifelink even during Rain of Gore. It’s weird but is the rules. Lich’s Mirror also creates an infinite illegal gamestate that’s mandatory. It’s basically “if you’d lose the game, shuffle everything back, redraw a new opening hand, reset your life total.” But there are ways like Venom counters from Venominaga, where if you have enough counters on a player they lose. Well, the card says you can’t lose and just reset. But you still have the counters. Usually you’d just die again and Lich’s Mirror gets put back in the deck, so you die for real. But Lich’s Mirror says “shuffle back all cards you own” not control. So say you steal your opponent’s mirror and die to poison. Well it doesn’t get shuffled back but you still have it. And you still have your poison counters so you still keep dying. Edit: there’s also cards that let you win and lose simultaneously for different reasons and can sometimes depend on how it’s sequenced. Culmination of Studies was my favorite. YGO text equivalent is basically “Banish your top X cards. For each spell banished, draw a card. For each trap banished, deal 500 damage.” So what happens when you deck yourself and burn your opponent to 0? Does deck order matter? Do you do all the actions at once? If you burn your opponent before decking out is that a win?
For Culmination of studies, the damage to the opponent would make them lose only whan the state based actions are checked, after the resolution of the spell. If you draw from an empty library, you lose immediately (during the resolution of the spell, before your oponent can lose from the damage).
@@isaz2425 no. Losing from drawing from an empty library is also a state based action (weirdly) (104.3c). In this case each player will lose the game the next time a player would recieve priority (104.3c, 104.3b). Since that is simultaneous, the game is a draw (104.4a). If you do manage to win and lose the game simultaneously, due to 104.3f, you lose the game. That being said, I am not aware of any way for that to happen. The closest I could get would be electrolyze yourself while at 2 with an empty library and laboratory maniac, but lab man creates a replacement effect so you would win during the resolution whereas state based actions aren't checked until after.
@@skuamato7886 However, while that cannot happen in Magic, it sorta can in YuGiOh. If you activate Relay Soul, summoning a piece of Exodia from your hand, then get all other pieces to hand, then bounce the piece you summoned, you technically win by Exodia and lose by Relay Soul at the same time. Master Duel has that coded to a draw.
the old animate dead + worldgorger dragon combo is hilarious. when i first found out about it i was like "no way, there's no way it works like that" then I thought about it and was like "well, I guess there's nothing saying it DOESNT work like that". MTG is just different.
Holy moly that's a combo. Your entire board repeatedly turns into a dragon and back, giving you infinite mana, enters the battlefield triggers, leaves the battlefield triggers and permanent ability activations (except non-haste creature abilities that cost {T}). And if there aren't any other creatures in anyone's grave and you can't win the game by looping, it's also judge call turbo
@@manjackson2772 the version of the deck that runs this combo generally runs Buried Alive to put Worldgorger Dragon and at least one more creature in the graveyard to stop the combo.
Someone in our playgroup in high school used this combo as his main gimmick all the time. He’d usually use the infinite mana for a fireball. I made him go through the motions each time, with either an Orim’s Chant to throw in the middle of it or a very beaten up copy mana drain I found at a comic shop and my own fireball. If I didn’t have any interruption, I’d make him go through it anyways so he’d sweat it out. Needless to say, we’re not friends anymore.
It is really hilarious, especially because it's one of the highest-risk combos you can do. If the Worldgorger gets killed, exiled, or even bounced with the ETB on the stack you can say goodbye to all of your permanents.
Shoutouts to the person at 0:56 seconds asking if this is just "summon a monster from the fucking side deck". That sweet, sweet summer child doesn't know about Companion.
In the Volrath's Shapeshifter segment, someone in MBT's chat asked if Arcana Force XXI - The World is the only card in yugioh that cares about GY order. It is not. There's at least one more: Question.
I'm surprised Mystic Reflection didn't get a mention. There's some funny thing's that card can do, especially when effects that temporary turn things into creatures are involved. "Oh, that's a fancy combo your commmander could have pulled off, shame it's an indestructible land now."
Shout out to weird contrivances like pot of greed apparently targeting you and destruction by battle briefly being considered that monster "taking battle damage" for the purposes of like two cards
Let's not forget the card Serra Paragon which came out recently and didn't work correctly in the rules until over a month later. The card says: Once during each of your turns, you may play a land from your graveyard or cast a permanent spell with mana value 3 or less from your graveyard. If you do, it gains “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, exile it and you gain 2 life.” This effect didn't work for spells because you have to put spells into a zone called the stack before they go to the battlefield. And when things change zones they need to lose abilities at certain times, otherwise you could have a card with certain added abilities be shuffled into your library, and you have up to 4 copies of that card. So which one has those abilities. Anyways, spells would lose the abilities they gained when being put onto the stack, when transitioning from the stack to the battlefield. Lands didn't have this issue because you play lands as a special action from one zone, directly to the battlefield.
YGO has similar rules involving added qualities, we just don't consider being On Chain as a special location for a number of reasons, certain qualities are tracked when sent to GY/Banish(our Exile), but most are not(thus why YGO players consider soft-once-per-turn effects absurd, a card sent to the GY and resummoned gets to use its effect again), we have a LOT of cards that say, in some variation, "return card to field from GY, when it leaves the field(or "would go to the GY" or whatever), Banish it", and it works just fine, though it is possible with Monsters to get around it(Xyz Summons convert on-field monsters into Attached Material, which does not count as leaving the field, but does cause the monsters used as material to shed any added properties after resolving the Summon)
@@syrelian Those kind of replacement effects are fairly common (graveyard to field). The key difference is whether we are casting the card versus activating an effect. Casting always involves moving the card (or a copy) to the stack, whereas using an ability (effect), unless specified, keeps the card in its current zone until it has resolved.
So the issue is that Serra paragon said that the permanents gain the enter graveyard effect when they're cast instead of when they enter the battlefield
@@tinfoilslacks3750 correct. Spells that become permanents didn't used to gain abilities like that. So they had to modify the rules to allow it to work as that card intends.
Mutate is a mechanic that has a LOT of wierd interactions. In short, you can take a mutate card (or several) as well as another creature, and combine them into one creature with all the stats of the one card on top, but also the entire textbox of every card under it. In a vacuum, it's not that bad, but there are a lot of ways already in MTG to change the types of a card to make it a valid Mutate target, AND lots of cards that have features which change based on other fluctuating factors. You can mutate onto Vehicles. You can Mutate onto Transform cards. You can Mutate onto facedown Morph/Manifest creatures. You can mutate onto things you animated into creatures, and Magic has ways to turn any card on the field into a creature. You can also Mutate onto Theros Gods which could lead to having a permanent on the field with no card types. It's not an enchantment anymore, and it's ability says it's not a creature. It's just *an object* with a textbox. The list of wierd interactions is VAST. The main saving grace is that there is (to my knowledge) no way to Mutate with more than one non-Mutate card in the stack (meaning we can't combine a Blightsteel Sliver Emrakul or something like that). If we ever get a card that can grant mutate to other creatures you cast, I think the entire rules committee will need intense counseling.
@@AshenHawk96 I was playing Volo, Guide to Monsters in a Sultai Mutate deck using that Octopus With right stacking, i could copy Mutate Spells, and stuff that cares about times Mutated like Insatiable Hemophage was dealing more than twice that much damage Especially when you flash in that Octopus to trigger even more Mutate while the other trigger where still on the stack
@Hanmacx Yeah, I considered Volo. Basically every beast or bird with "when this creature mutates" gets 3x the triggers on the initial cast and 4x if you mutate another bird/beast. It's nuts. I ended up just going more with Otrimi, +1 counters, auras/equipment, and ability granting. Mutate Voltron, basically. Less about triggers, more about building massive 10+ power Kaiju with 3-5 keywords and such.
So sad that I didn't get to see my favorite rules nightmare card "Eye of the Storm" be talked about. Truly a nightmare when you read the oracle text and how it actually works.
@@seandun7083 Nothing feels as good as having 4 spellslinger decks at the table, someone drops Eye of the Storm, and then everyone begins the process of trying to game spells into the storm at the right time for maximum advantage. And then being unable to cast spells in response to the resolution of Eye of the Storm which casts the spells. I think at one point, we had a single turn go for two hours because of how much math we were doing when someone slapped a grapeshot into the storm.
So, I wonder, is the reason WotC is willing to make these nightmarish, hells of a card, is BECAUSE they have such a powerful ruling infrastructure. Like, they don't need to worry too much about cards that clearly will cause ruling headaches because they are confident their system is strong enough to handle it effectively. Sometimes they are wrong. Most of the time they are not. If only Yugioh had that confidence
funnily enough, most of these cards predate the monstrous comprehensive rules, and a lot of those rules were are written in BECAUSE of these disastrous cards
@@elleeVee Which is still great because it shows that Magic fucked up a lot in its younger years, but had the balls to go "fuck it" and just write out the rules meticulously for this stuff to explain such interactions and made them airtight enough to rarely fail utterly. And even then if it does fail utterly you'll usually get a shoutout of "we're not sure how you did this, but congratulations on doing it anyway"
We make our own hells anyway, we just have such an open and flexible rule state that it takes shit like hard-locked infinite loops to actually break the rules most of the time, rather then merely being confusing headaches, and we have a ruling for if you somehow make an infinite non-progressing non-actionable loop state, either the activating action is undone and considered an illegal move, or one of the offending cards is destroyed if the interaction was unable to be walked back or otherwise was not an action that could have been known(eg you attack something face-down, flipping it, which now causes an infinite loop state, or you resolve a mandatory effect that changes the board), also JP actually has a huge ruling database, for some reason English Konami has just never decided to actually reflect it, or write its own to account for minor ruling distinctions that already exist
@@elleeVee It's a difference in design perspective. MtG expects its players to be mature enough to be playing a game with friends in good faith. In other words, it expects that nobody is a whiny baby that is willing to cheat to win at a game. So, a lot of the rules assume a lot about each player's willingness to accept that reading the card explains the card. For the most part, rules lawyer nonsense won't reach a different conclusion unless you are trying to cheat in an extremely obvious way. Yugioh, on the other hand, knows that it's aiming for an audience between the ages of 6-12, who are, generally speaking, much more childish in their approach to games and winning.
Two of my favorite cards are "Grip of Chaos" and "Confusion in the Ranks". Grip makes every spell and ability with a single target assign the target randomly from all legal targets. Confusion makes it so that whenever a permanent(of artifact, creature, or enchantment) comes into play, it gets swapped with something that shares a type with it that an opponent controls. What this means is that anything that bounces itself back into your hand allows you to stack it so that the switch occurs then it comes back to you, allowing you to steadily steal everyone's stuff. Throw something like "Kira, Great Glass-Spinner" or "Norin the Wary" into the mix for extra fun.
The funniest thing I know of in Magic is “fail to find” vs effects that reveal card. Magic has a rule called “fail to find,” which essentially means that if you’re searching a “hidden zone,” aka a library or someone’s hand, and your search has a restriction on it (eg. it has to be a land, the card can’t cost more than 1, etc.), you can just say “Nope, I don’t have anything to search” and end it there. You can do this for any number of cards in the search, and there doesn’t even have to be a legal way that there wasn’t anything left; you can just do it, because it was simpler that way that forcing a rewind. This works even if the cards are revealed, because the zone is still considered a hidden zone. So your opponent could visibly see cards you could pick, and you would still be able to say, “Nope, there’s nothing.”
Notably, even "with different names" is good enough to allow you to fail to find. You can use MTG's equivalent of Painful Choice, search out two cards instead of four so they have to pick those two to send to your grave and 'fail to find' any more. Yes, the entire rest of my deck is just copies of these two cards. What are you going to do, pick it up and check?
Just like Ignition Priority, Fail to Find isn't a rule so much as it is a lack of one, Yu-Gi-Oh inherited Ignition Priority and Fail to Find from Magic's game structure until rules were added to remove them.
@@jeezuhskriste5759: "Yes, fail to find was inherited from Magic. That’s what I was talking about. The video was about weird and confusing cards, not just in YuGiOh." I was mostly making the point that fail to find isn't a rule, but a lack of one, and Yu-Gi-Oh added a rule to remove it, but Magic has not done that.
1:12 Correction, you can put things onto the stack as something resolves, due to various triggers and abilities, and what happens is they all go into the stack on top of that ability For example, if you have a card that reads "Whenever you draw a card, do...." and you have another card that reads "draw a card, then..." The first ability triggers and goes on the stack during the resolution of the card that made you draw, it is just ignored until you finish resolution.
As far as the "You can't normally put a card on the stack mid-resolution", yesn't? There are effects like "Cast thing without paying its mana cost" that technically put things onto the stack mid-resolution, but they generally deliberately don't let you pay mana in order to avoid Krark Clan Ironworks-esque shenanigans.
The full effect that's on the stat resolves entirely, simultaneously but also in the order of the text on the card. Functionally there really is no such thing as "mid-resolution" technically.
Trinisphere is interesting with - Phyrexian Mana, or Hybrid mana is chosen first, that changes the mana being paid - then Trinisphere checks if mana is
For videos on rulings, my favorite channel is Judging FTW. www.youtube.com/@JudgingFtW Here are my favorite videos from there: Henzie Torre and Serra Paragon (There used to be errors in the comprehensive rules that made these two cards not work) ua-cam.com/video/Y03iu48lDDY/v-deo.html Thespian Stage + Urza's Saga (Most complicated interaction that you need to know to play a deck optimally.) ua-cam.com/video/QkDsflKX9l4/v-deo.html Dash + Dress Down (Another complicated interaction that occurs in competitive magic.) ua-cam.com/video/Qfvk0C1TEcs/v-deo.html Crypic Spires (This card tells you to write on the card.) ua-cam.com/video/CeKu0aE6_Ug/v-deo.html Suspend + Creature lands (Misleading reminder text.) ua-cam.com/video/bzSWPELti60/v-deo.html
Hi, I just want to share with everyone this ruling on Humility This is the current interaction between Humility and Opalescence: The type-changing effect applies at layer 4, but the rest happens in the applicable layers. The rest of it will apply even if the permanent loses its ability before it’s finished applying. So if Opalescence, Humility, and Worship are on the battlefield and Opalescence entered the battlefield before Humility, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments. (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities. (Humility) Layer 7b: Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4. (Opalescence). Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). But if Humility entered the battlefield before Opalescence, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities (Humility). Layer 7b: Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4 (Opalescence). I have played MtG on and off since when Panglacial Wurm was in print. I have no idea how layers work.
more fun things is better with magus of the moon. The creature variant of blood moon. When both are in play, all nonbasics are still mountains. But nothing on the battlefield has that ability.
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena Actually, it depends on the timing. With 2 opalescence and 1 humility and the humility entered in between, you will have a 4/4 opalescence, a 4/4 humility and a 1/1 opalescence.
@@ScorpioneOrzion Well it is a good thing i play EDH where it is a singleton where i don't have to deal with fucked up riles interactions that involves multiple copies of a card
9:15 Actually the CR doesn't say *anything* about what to do about a spell that was cast from the library being an illegal declaration (which is what happens here), presumably the spell is supposed to go back to the library, except that zone is one where undoing the moving of cards to or from that zone is prohibited as part of the undoing an illegal declaration, yet, Panglacial Wurm is *also* required by the rulebook to leave the stack because of cource it can't stay there being that it was not a legal declaration to cast it (which begins by moving it onto the stack).
Well, moving a card off the stack back to the library is fine, in and of itself, but the problem arises when Millikin has moved Progenitus from being the top card of the library to the graveyard (mill), which is then replaced by Progenitus' effect of it being revealed and shuffled into its owner's library. Now the library has been shuffled *while* Panglacial Wurm was in the process of being cast (and thus on the stack and *not* in the library). Now if that casting attempt becomes illegal, where is Panglacial Wurm *supposed to be* in that library? The rulebook provides *no* answer to this question.
kinda sad i missed that thread, i'd have loved for them to talk about First Day of Class + Putrid Goblin + Skirk Inspector (which is a legal infinite mana combo in the MTG equivalent of Common Charity)
it's an infinite combo, but it's not too difficult to handle the rules related to it. you just have to know that +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out.
As a long time MTG Modern nerd it's hilarious how we took KCI for granted and never really bothered. It's been a while since I saw this POS and it's hilarious to see someone explain MTG shenanigans to YGO players 😂
The reason why you can use Panglacial Wurms effect is because its effect allows you to basically ADD playing it to the resolution of a library search. Also, to use that ability, you need enough mana to actually cast it before you can even TRY to cast it from the library. It's not the only card to work in such a fashion either. Another prime example of a card that adds the ability to play cards in the middle of a resolution is Eye of the Storm, another old card. However, this time there are MULTIPLE cards that can be added onto the stack while Eye is in the middle of resolving. And those cards all resolve BEFORE eye finishes its own resolution.
E: This isn't quite correct, see replies Blood Moon is fucked up because it looks like it should just give nonbasic lands the Mountain land type. Right? Like if a card in yugioh said "All effect monsters become Dragons", we'd understand that their creature type just changed. But no. Blood Moon MAKES THEM INTO THE CARD MOUNTAIN. Their name becomes "Mountain" and they become a basic land that taps for {R} and does nothing else.
Their name doesn't become Mountain. What Blood Moon does is delete all other land subtypes beyond Mountain and make them lose all their abilities except "T: Add R". Their name stays the same, and any other types or supertypes the card might have remains (so for instance, if you control a legendary land it will be a legendary mountain with the same name it had before, so it won't be sent to the grave right away but you still couldn't play another copy of it, and stuff like Dryad Arbor goes from being a Land Creature - Forest Dryad to a Land Creature - Mountain Dryad, but would still be a green 1/1)
That isn't what Blood Moon does. It basically replaces their land type with Mountain and their text with "T: Add R" The lands still keep their names and legendary lands stay legendary.
To clarify how the rules text of Blood Moon is supposed to be interpreted to reach the correct understanding, "mountains" in MtG are land cards named "mountain" with no printed abilities* and the mountain subtype. The specified cards _become_ mountains. Edit: as previously stated, Blood Moon does not affect names or supertypes (like legendary). I cannot explain this without referencing the rules, and even then I'm not convinced you can figure this out by any way other than checking Gatherer's rulings on Blood Moon exactly. *In mtg, if a land has a forest/plains/island/mountain/swamp subtype (a "basic land type"), it automatically has "tap: add [color]." Basic lands don't have any text because of this.
Almost every card works as you think it should in a vacuum. The main issues come from when confusing cards are paired together. Also there are official rulings up on Gatherer/Scryfall for common issues with cards.
7:50 I dreamt up a more complex version of this some years ago abusing Milikin, Oracle of Muldaya, and Progenitus which, yes, totally breaks the comprehensive rulebook (CR).
I am surprised Mutate didn't come into play here. My favorite interaction keeps being that Gideon Oathsworn does NOT explicitly become a human creature, but a nondescript soldier creature. Meaning you could mutate on top of him, making a non Planeswalker creature with planeswalker abilities
@@andresarancio6696 yeah with the sword from new capena it not as unique now tho still really funny tho you can also use Swift Reconfiguration to make said mutated creature walker into a car
Man, the entire time I was hoping someone would bring up Gitrog loops with Dakmor Salvage and the OG Eldrazi Titans. That has to be one of my favorite interactions in all of MtG.
@@KeshavKrishnan the card The Gitrog Monster has the ability "whenever one or more land cards are put into your graveyard from anywhere, draw a card". Dakmor Salvage is a land that has dredge 2 "If you would draw a card, you may put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard instead. If you do, return this from your graveyard to your hand". The original 3 Eldrazi titans, Emrakul,The Aons Torn for example, all have "whenever this card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, shuffle your graveyard into your library". Those are the 3 relevant abilities. During the cleanup step, players with more than 7 cards on hand discard down to 7, until end of turn effects end, and damage is removed from creatures. Then, you check to see if any triggered abilities are put into the stack. If not, the turn ends. If there are, players get a chance to respond to them as normal, then when the stack is empty and everyone passes priority, there is another cleanup step and the process repeats. The interaction comes when you have a gitrog monster out and discard dakmor salvage to hand size. After cleanup, gitrog triggers and you draw a card. You can choose to replace that draw with dredging dakmor salvage. Go to the next cleanup and you still have more than 7 cards, so repeat the process. This lets you put an arbitrary amount of cards from your deck into your graveyard, drawing whenever dredging hits a land, though you still need to discard down to 7 after. The eldrazis can shuffle your graveyard in to stop you from milling out. I'm not sure what the normal line of play is to win from there, but you should be able to find something, though I assume in a competitive setting you might get a slow play warning after a while.
Season of the witch really ask hard the questions of “could attack”. Like if you are in commander and you play a wall and could play your commander (one that makes walls able to attack) and give the wall boots of haste, does it die if you don’t? It’s kind of asking if you are force to do everything in your power to make it possible to attack or if it’s allow to do everything in your power to make it impossible (or anything inbetween). I think an easy ruling is to say if during the choose attacker stage, if it doesn’t have a line of text on the card or aura/equipment/ability that gives it the line “this creature can not attack” or has summoning it dies. Only reason I favor this only because it’s more clear I feel in most cases though it may feel less fair and still probably need to be ironed out
From the rulings "a creature won't be destroyed if it was unable to attack that turn, even if you were able to enable it to attack". So it will be fine when if you could have payed for ghostly prison or equipped swiftfoot boots or played arcades, etc. I'm still not sure how silent arbiter works though.
@@seandun7083So, I double checked the rulings, and Season of the Witch has the ruling that it applies to all creatures that could have been chosen to attack during the declare attackers step. So I think Season should destroy all creatures that didn't attack, because when you got to the declare attackers step, it could have been any of them.
KCI is such a funny card. It was banned only partially because the deck was good, more problematic was the obscure rulings knowledge required to play *and play against* the deck. It was slowing down tournaments with judge calls
We learned a lot of lessons with this, but I think the biggest lesson that we could ever have learned is that MBT's viewers do not know the definition of the word innocuous.
To be honest, most interactions mentioned rarely come up, and even then it's almost always in EDH where people can do whatever silly things they want. Meanwhile in yugioh judges were left scratching their head with Guardian Chimera last year. Sure, Magic gets more complex but at least they've tried to give players and judges the tools while barely any exist in yugioh.
even outside of not having a rule book. yugioh has issues where the wrong phrase was used so a card had to get a "it works this way ruling" despite it not reading as such all because shuffled was used instead of returned to the deck. its worse than the kaiju slumber as kaiju sulmber was a flawed idea from the start rulings wise
@@randomprotag9329 We get those wording issues very rarely these days, thank goodness, at least in English, thanks to PSCT, instead you just get confusing ones like Clock Lizard's return and resummon being a fucking bastard to program for sims because it considers a card in the GY a valid target for its Extra Deck effect, which makes sense in gameplay but not within hard mechanisms in a game that doesn't allow you to activate effects with no targets
Opposition Agents 'You control your opponent' effect, I wonder if someone's ever got 'I control you, so I make you concede' to work in kitchen table magic. That kind of thing sounds like it'd be ruled on day 1 in a proper tournament setting, but it could fly in casual games
21:40 - this and so many other problems could be solved kinda easily by saying that preventing a card by cost needs to be made right after it's casted or paid. like if you call an activation and the guy increases cost you can't pay. if you pay and the guy increases cost, it doesn't resolve. If it starts taking action before the cost is increased it's too late.
I played KCI at a lot of COMP REL events including a Pro Tour. Deck was crazy and a lot of fun to win. I stopped playing it when the "meta" way to beat this deck became winning game 1 and then taking the maximum amount of time possible to respond to EVERY action so they the KCI deck would lose in time. This was not cheating but got cracked down on shortly before they banned the card. Even Matt Nass stopped playing this deck (who was the best pilot of the deck and debatably the best modern player in the world in while playing it) because after winning multiple major events on it people started doing this to him and he couldn't get results.
@@googleisskynet9112 I have no clue why angle shooting like that isn't considered unsporting conduct according to the rules. By definition, it is unsporting conduct.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 If you look at the history of the game and sportsman-like conduct there is a long history of high-level players getting away with straight-up cheating-like conduct when it comes to angle shooting to the point where if it's not in the rules it OK. Stuff like arguing with a judge to get a ruling in your favor was commonplace. In contrast, I think Konami's 0 policy stance is also a little silly. I would personally I think somewhere in the middle (closer to Knonami) leads to the best play experience.
@@googleisskynet9112 There's also a long history of actual cheating, not just cheating-like conduct. At no point have "professional" TCG tournaments or their winners been respectable or legitimate.
Since LoR is getting scaled back to be PvE centric, some friends and I have been trying to codify LoR's rules to approximate paper play of it. Obviously some effects are impossible or untennable in paper, like random effects created cards and game long tracking, but even if you remove all of those there's some goofy rules stuff. One of the funniest ruling issues comes from auras turning temporary effects into permanent effects. If you have voice of the risen out (allies have +2/+0) and a husk on the field (a 0/1 unit with "the next time you play an ally, kill me to grant that ally my stats and keywords"), when you play another unit it will kill the husk, give the unit +2/+1 according to the husk's stats at time of death, and then the unit will get an additional +2/+0 from voice of the risen too. Then, if voice of the risen leaves the field the unit loses the +2/+0 but not the +2/0 the husk had. Another funny one is Leona's solar flare and sun hawk. Leona and sun hawk both have daybreak effects (effects with play timing windows) that put an effect on the stack. But Leona *also* puts her effect on the stack whenever another daybreak effect resolves. So if you play Sunhawk while Leona is out, sunhawk will put its skill on the stack, the stack will resolve, and without passing priority to anybody the game will immediately move to an entirely new stack with Leona's effect on it now. And then there's spellshield, which is just a complete nightmare all around.
You’re sort of correct that, like in Yugioh, in Magic you can only play cards during an open game state *according to the game rules*. However, in Magic one of the golden rules is that if a card contradicts the rules, the card text supersedes the rule it contradicts. So because many, many cards grant special timing windows to cast cards, in practice it’s actually fairly common to cast spells during the resolution of a different effect.
The KCI thing gets less weird the more in depth you go into magic. Effectively, state based actions are checked after the resolution of things on the stack and when they are put onto the stack. So, once you cast the spell by paying costs with KCI, the spell is put onto the stack then SBA's are checked and they see some triggers. Those triggers are put onto the stack in any order the controller desires then that player gains priority and the stack can begin to resolve.
Manalogs has a good MTG video about ruling nightmares, covers a lot of the same cards and its pretty funny. Card games are so hilariously screwed up sometimes.
26:06 Is that a thing that can actually happen? You call a judge over to clarify an interaction and they can just be like “Nope! Figure it out yourself, nerds.”
i'm banking on the fact that noone is ever going to play season of the witch in a real sanctioned match, if they do i'm fucked but i'll have to come up with a ruling
@@najawin8348 i don't get paid enough to figure out cEDH rulings nah but for real i never took time to hash out the arguments for and against it to figure out where i stood, last time i interacted with the discourse i saw someone type "well ACTUALLY it's different from four horsemen because [five walls of text]" which usually isn't a good sign but I know it's a complex issue with a lot of moving parts
I know this is an old video but i wanna throw the following into the ring: Four Horsemen Combo. Normally inMagic, if you would create a looping effect combo you demonstrate the loop, state how many times you would like it to resolve, then skip to the post-resolution. If the loop lacks a way to stop resolving then the game ends in a draw. Four Horsemen is a combo that kills your opponent by milling yourself to put a bunch of cards in your graveyard in the correct order, with an effect to shuffle your gy into the deck if they weren't in the right order. However this means it's an infinite loop with a theoretical potential end point that kills your opponent. Except that end point is non-deterministic - there's potential you NEVER mill the combo in the correct order. Because of this non-determinism you cannot shortcut the loop and must complete each step in order. This will take a long time and so Four Horseman is effectively banned from competitive play, because playing it will almost guarantee you a "slow play" DQ.
Now I want to bring up Displacer Kitten as a card that probably falls into this category. Considering how much stupid shit surrounds it in the first place, it would not surprise me if there was multiple instances of Displacer Kitten causing nightmare scenarios. I don't know any specific ones, but I'd be willing to bet my life on it.
yugioh: most games with have a ruling question or a why did that happen, magic: few games have a ruling question, but when they happen nobody can figure it out
Things that have always been interesting to me: Auras being put into play without explicitly stating a target while doing so. Example: You can enchant a creature that has shroud or hexproof or even protection in play by simply putting; not casting which would require a valid target, an aura into play. Unless stated otherwise on the card. BUT if the card has protection it falls off due to state based effects. Example: animate dead or necromancy + Karmic guide which allows karmic guide to target itself in the graveyard due to state based effects (the game checking t see if all things are currently legal and if need be correcting the game state like an if else statement in code). First Strike. A static ability that literally creates another combat damage step in the game state which is kind of ridiculous when you think about it since you have clearly defined steps in the game and this very common mechanic adds a new step to the game which inherently makes it not as intuitive as one would thing once you get into the details of the ability.
Actually protection with aura's being put on the battlefield can't be enchanted. For example a Animar, Soul of Elements who has protection from black and white, can't be enchanted by a darksteel mutation put on the battlefield. A white aura that removes all abilities from the enchanted creature.
Coming from Runeterra I did a fucking double take at MtG's first strike mechanic. The idea that first strike creates its own entire damage step previous to the normal damage step for first strike units to assign their damage is insane. Runeterra is obviously a much simpler game but "attacker does damage before it's blocker" seems like a pretty intuitive feature to implement.
I am watching this and as a vanguard player who mains DI when I saw enigmatic assassin get scrolled past I just laughed. That card is busted in so many "fun" ways
Nephilim Format is where you play non-legendary creatures as commanders, so Quicksilver Elemental and Volrath's Shapeshifter are great additions to the Meme Tier!
here are some fun ones not Shown Scourge of the Skyclaves + Nethroi, Apex of Death Scourge has */* meaning it's stats are checked by an effect regardless where it is. it has 20/20 minus the highist life amoung players. so it can have negitive stats Nethroi brings cards from the grave that total 10 power, if Scourge has negitive power, you can bring back more then 10 power sharuum the hegemon + any Copy in MTG there is the Legend Rule, where you can only have 1 legendary with the same name in play, if you ever have multiple, you send all but 1 to the grave. however this action by passes the stack. Sharuum has a Enter the Battlefield trigger, that lets you put an Artifact into play from the grave. the Legend rule must be resolved before her Effect can trigger, and before it targets, so Sharuum can target herself, bringing herself back infinity. Teferi, Time Raveler + Knowledge Pool Teferi states that your opponents can only cast cards at Sorcery Speed, in other words, they may not cast cards unless it starts a Stack. Knowledge Pool states that whenever a player casts a card, it is Exiled {remove from play} and they MAY cast another card exiled by Knowledge Pool. since the choice to cast is part of the effect, it's adding to the stack. which Teferi states they can't. Urza's Saga + Blood Moon Urza's Saga is a Land Enchantment, with a Special Subtype called "Saga" Sagas have a list of effects with Numbers, when played they gain a page counter and trigger the effect equal the amount {and gain 1 every turn}, and after checks to see if they counters equal the highest number it lists. if it is equal or highier it is sent to the grave Blood Moon turns non-basic lands into mountains. but the thing about these effects is that it does not replace Card Types other then what it states. so it's still an Enchantment Saga but now with no Saga Effects, so it dies as soon as it sees it's counter are equal or greater then 0 making a Planeswaker not a Planeswaker there are a few ways to do this. Planeswakers are cards that enter with loyalty counters, and gain or lose them based on it's effects. your opponent can attack a Planeswaker to deal damage to it, removing counters. if a Planeswaker has 0 loyalty it dies. but if you make it not a Planeswaker. it's effects function normally. but it can't be attack and can exist with 0 counters
I used to have a deck that was R/U, and basically was a NIGHTMARE in a group game, possibility storm, hive mind, knowledge pool, forced fruition. After I get two of those cards out, everyone quits since casting any spell takes FOREVER, AND if a people try to respond, no one knows what to do LOL
Me slipping Panglacial Wurm into my opponents deck so I can force them to cast it with Opposition Agent, like I'm fucking Weevil Underwood
GOD TIER REFERENCE
Wait that would work because you are controlling your opponent and Wurm can be cast. But I don't know any way to put one of your cards into their deck.
@@rrteppoliterally just put it in there before the game illegally.
@rrteppo yeah, they try VERY hard to make sure that cards only go in their owner's hidden zones
@@rrteppo we call it the slip 'n' slide
Siberian is right, the Judge Discord had a consensus a while ago that if the Selvala+Panglacial interaction ever comes up, instant DQ, no questions asked
At this point in MTGs life cycle anyone playing both of those cards together knows what they're doing. They deserve the DQ.
Disagree with this approach. There should be a precedence on how to proceed with resolving every game state that doesn’t involve DQ.
@@GodKiller97
Nah, you've already come out on top by that point so the DQ is the icing on the cake.
Think abt it
Your goal for playing then is:
1. Play the "combo", and get an illegal action going
2. Make everyone who knows whats going on have a good laugh
3. Get a very grumpy judge who now has to deal with you
In conclusion: Them DQing you means that you've definitely succeeded in everything you were going for, thereby, you've won 10x over already with that play. Literally going out with incredible sass and style.
Selvala yeah, but it was a semi real thing in modern with chromatic sphere at one point. Mono green tron plays stars and spheres to get colored mana from tron lands and an extra giant creature that can be drawn for free with say, an Expedition map is a valuable card to put in your deck.
Oh that's evil.
Also, a personal favorite that i have used to win games before: Discarding a land during the cleanup step while The Gitrog Monster is on the field
Gitrog makes you to draw a card whenever a land is put into the graveyard from anywhere. During the cleanup step, you discard down to your current maximum hand size (generally 7), and nobody has priority, meaning you can't cast spells or activitie abilities.
However, if you discard a land, it'll trigger The Gitrog Monster. Because an ability was put on the stack, it is still the cleanup step, but you now have priority, and can cast spells. You still pass priority, so other than players having priority during cleanup step, there's nothing too weird happening.
What makes this weird is "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects go away during the cleanup step. So, if an opponent cast Silence, which just says "Your opponents can't cast spells this turn", you can't cast anything. But by moving to cleanup and discarding a land, you can gain priority after Silence's effect ends, and cast spells at instant speed.
Then, once the draw resolves, another cleanup step happens. You'll likely still be above the 7 card limit, since you discarded 1 card then drew 1 card, so you can discard another land to draw another card.
This gets even crazier if you have Dakmor Salvage in your hand/graveyard, because you can replace all those draw triggers with milling 2, and put Dakmor back into your hand so you still end up replacing the card discarded.
i realized gitrog monster triggers on a land discard durring clean up and spent the next few hours trying to think of how to break this.
@MaestroAlvis Alright, here's how you do it:
-Have at least 1 black mana available
-Discard Dakmor Salvage
-Gitrog triggers, drawing a card
-Dakmor Salvage allows you to mill 2 and put it into your hand instead of drawing
-Rinse and repeat for infinite mill, drawing 1 card everytime you mill a land.
-Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre recycle your graveyard when milled or discarded, so you never run out of cards.
-You can now discard and draw forever until you draw Dark Ritual and Crown of Oblivion. Use Dark Ritual to cast the Crown, leaving 1 mana floating.
-Repeat the loop again, this time using Crown of Oblivion to discard instead of moving to the next cleanup. This allows us to keep that 1 mana floating from the Dark Ritual, which will get shuffled back in by an Eldrazi.
-Draw into Dark Ritual again, use the remaining 1 mana from earlier to cast it, rinse and repeat for infinite black mana.
-With infinite mana, you can then play Orcish Bowmaster, ping for 1 damage, cast removal on your own Bowmasters, and loop your Bowmasters and removal the same way you looped Dark Ritual.
Congratulations, you have won the game at instant speed during the cleanup step by discarding a land.
@@MaestroAlvisI don’t have a precise answer, but the Gitrog Monster competitive EDH/Commander deck attempts to do this whole cleanup step shenanigan with dakmor salvage to win so checking out play/combo guides for that deck would be helpful
The thing with Pithing Needle that he skipped over is a rule sharking thing someone pulled a couple years ago. Basically, in the original Ravnica block, there was a legendary creature called Borborygmos. In the much more recent Return to Ravnica, there was a retrain of Borborygmos called Borborygmos Enraged. Also in Return to Ravnica was the card Pithing Needle, which essentially works like Prohibition - name a card, that card's activated abilities can't be activated. In a major tournament, a player cast Pithing Needle, and declared "Borborygmos". His opponent acknowledged this and let it resolve, then summoned Borborygmos Enraged and activated its ability, pointing out that "Borborygmos" is a different card entirely. This caused a massive kerfuffle, and led to the creation of the ruling "You don't have to state the exact perfect name for cards like Pithing Needle, if both players know the card you mean that's good enough." Major nerf to Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar imo.
he could/should make a whole video on it, i bet ygo players would get a kick out of it. also how hard is it to say Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar i mean really
@@DuressPls Rhystic Studies already did 5 years ago.
@@DuressPls MTG Remi made a whole song about it.
You don't even need to same a name you can actually just say "so yeah that card that you discard a land and does 3 damages, the creature one"
There was also a rule added where the card name had to be legal for the format.
17:47 that one guy in chat who said 'you can cast panglacial wurm for them' got me xD
Idk much of MTG but MBT and Siberian's entertainment value + my love for hearing obscure stupid rulings in card games made this super enjoyable
Someone needs to dig up the mbt and Siberian going through the Yugioh Rulings Iceberg
Siberian is crazy, it's hard to comprehend he knows all these rulings.
Yall understand that MBT name was a mtg reference (mono blue tron) before he changed it to make it work for yugioh (marincess blue tang)
yeah pretty much same for me, I've been getting into mtg but most of these rulings I have no idea and cannot understand at all.
Quicksilver Elemental had a brief, ridiculous interaction with planeswalkers that could become creatures. Planeswalkers can only activate their abilities once per turn, but that restriction USED TO BE tied specifically to the "Planeswalker" card type. You could activate Quicksilver Elemental targeting your own Gideon Jura (or similar), use its plus ability one morbillion times, then use the ultimate ability however many times you wanted. The "Planeswalker" rule got changed soon after, but it was hilarious to consider.
I remember this haha!
At least they addressed the problem. Most of the problem cards in the video are that way because it's not really worth the time to have people debate cards that nobody plays.
wow bring the fun back, wizards
you can infact sitll do that
by changing it into a creature and than mutating it, the ability is no longer on a planewalked but insted on a creature
@@sharktenko267 Now you can only activate one loyalty ability of a permanent each turn. The once a turn isn't tied to the planeswalker type anymore.
MBT explaining KCI to yugioh players is hillarious
this shit is a content goldmine
This 😂😂😂
Yugioh: Missing the timing, inherent summon, chain blocking
Magic: KCI
Okay but imagine if at the point of tribute summoning a card you could activate any affect that would put a monster on your field and none of it goes on chain
@@StormKidProductions Well chain blocking is kind of similar to the KCI trick
the funny thing is that Season of the Witch ruling has been decided to be whatever the current MTG rules manager decide on. It currently has no ruling because the current rules manager has not ruled on it yet.
It's definaly better than Konami ignoring everything and then the TCG to not use the OCD official rules database.
I honestly never understood why people act like Season of the Witch is confusing. Maybe it used to be, but nowadays we have Goad, and Goad runs the exact same checks as Season of the Witch does.
Panglacial wurm is playable in a very fringe cEDH deck called Raggadraga. It enables you to turn any green creature tutor into a one card win condition as long as you have raggadraga and any dork out that adds mana equal to it's power.
Raggadraga says that when you cast a spell and spend 7 or more mana on it (ragga does not look for cmc btw), you can untap any creature and give it +7/+7 until end of turn. So you cast the green tutor with at least 7 mana, ragga untaps your dork. You tap it before the green tutor resolves to make at least 7-8 more mana, then resolve the green tutor. In the middle of tutoring you declare you're going to cast panglacial. You resolve the green tutor and find Temur sabertooth, which lets you pay 2 green mana to bounce a creature you control to your hand. You use your floating mana to cast panglacial, which is a 7 mana spell. Ragga triggers and untaps your power-matters dork, so that it now taps for at least 14 mana. You can then bounce and recast panglacial wurm infinitely to produce infinite mana, and also infinitely pump your board.
You have sold me on Raggadraga
You can also just toss Panglacial into a casual green EDH deck and watch the confusion on your opponent's faces when you have a 9/7 after cracking a fetch. Feels great.
my kingdom now
this really be the rata quote "this is problem causing card text"
There's a guy called MaxMakesMagic on here, he has a lot of videos covering weird things you can do in MTG, like turning two planeswalkers into auras enchanting each other, or putting your entire deck in the command zone.
Did he make a Nameless, Thing less, Blue yet?
@@vxicepickxv Several!
For anyone who's curious: Take any noncreature artifact, say a Darksteel Pendant. Cast March of the Machines, which turns all noncreature artifacts into creatures. Summon Neurok Transmuter and use its ability to turn your animated Darksteel Pendant into a blue nonartifact. The Darksteel Pendant is now not an artifact because of Transmuter, so March of the Machines isn't turning it into a creature either, so it's... Nothing. It's a blue *static noises*.
@@vxicepickxv Video of that happening ua-cam.com/users/shortsXIEkmmdxEBs
Not nameless though.
I love the video on putting your deck into your command zone. You don't really have any win cons, but man the psychological damage you inflict on your opponents is great.
My favorite is winning during untap
THIS DUDE REALLY MADE A MTG TWITTER THREAD THANK YOU KING
Imagine using Opposition Agent against an opponent with Chromatic Sphere and Selvala in play, then when they search their library for something, you see Panglacial Wurm, and since you control them during this time you make them cast it, using Sphere and Selvala to try and pay for it, but then Selvala gets no mana at all; which player gets DQ'd for all this?
You would be the one on the receiving end of the judge call. You are the one who is attempting to perform an illegal action. For the same reason you can't mindslaver someone then cast a spell without paying for it to get them disqualified.
After the errata, Ertai's Meddling has a funny interaction with casting morph creatures. Morphs are cast face-down, but when a card changes zones it will be put face-up unless otherwise stated. When the last counter gets removed, you return the spell to the stack face-up, as a copy of that original morph spell. This means that once it resolves it will be a face-up, 2/2, colorless, nameless creature with no abilities. Since it isn't face-down it can't be turned face-up to stop being a morph anymore.
My favorite part is how many of these you can stack together in the casting of the same card
There's a reason I went through the training course to become a Rules Advisor after I started playing competitive MTG because gods do you get some weird interactions when you've got almost every single heavy hitter that has ever been printed in the game available to you at the same time, especially when their are 4 people with their boards to consider. One of my favorite rulings I've come across is that you can essentially counter Deathrite Shaman's MANA ABILITY (which technically isn't a mana ability and uses the stack) by removing the land it is targeting from the graveyard. And why is that something you can do? Because it says "target" in the text of the ability meaning it has to be able to target something which means there is a round of priority whenever you use that ability, so you can change the target to something else with things like Ricochet Trap or remove the target from the graveyard with things like Noxious Revival. In the case of removing the target from the graveyard you make the ability fizzle essentially countering the ability and denying the controller mana. This has been a rant about my favorite ruling I've encountered so far.
Just combine "Selvala, Explorer Returned" with "Vizier of the Menagerie" for consistent card ruling nightmares.
See I don't think Selvala is actually a problem. Easily avoidable, you just tap selvala before casting the spell. You're allowed to do that. You can tap things for mana without casting a spell.
@@HomeCookinMTG The problem is that you can do it WHILE you're casting the spell. Sure it's avoidable but you're gonna have people who forget.... or who are doing it intentionally.
@@zackkelley2940 But the thing is, doing it intentionally doesn't do anything other than give you a miniscule amount of information, and in practice the whole "you can do it WHILE casting a spell" really only comes up on MTGO or w/e. The reality of it is this card sees play in exactly 1 format, commander, which is largely casual, and these interactions basically don't come up.
@@HomeCookinMTG WAS largely casual. It still can be but with how much they've been pushing cards for the format it is... decidedly less casual.
And yes it's probably not going to come up very often but a minor problem is still a problem.
@@zackkelley2940 like I said the only time you're ever going to see this is on mtgo because that's the only time that the logistics of paying Mana as you're casting a spell actually matters, and on mtgo there's no rules nightmare because there you don't have to talk to a judge the program takes care of it for you. In practice in a paper game you're just going to activate the selvala first. And the only Advantage you get from intentionally doing this is knowing what your opponents are going to draw next. Maybe there's a corner case scenario where that information is relevant but if you're playing in a metagame where people are activating selvala while casting a spell knowing that they won't have enough Mana to resolve it just to get information, then your pod already has an understanding of how the rules interaction works and it's not really a nightmare
8:40 these weird edge case scenarios sound like things you cant just stumble into. Like they are situations that you have to intentionally create.
The average player wouldn't "try to cast something" and then do other actions to try to generate enough mana to actually cast the thing, but then realize they didnt make enough mana and create this weird situation. The average player would just go "Do I have enough mana? Yes? I cast the thing."
Being able to pay costs mid-casting is a useful QoL. There are only problems with:
1) Any mana ability that produces a random amount of mana
2) non reversible mana abilities (exemple: Sylvalla. You can undraw the card but not unreveal it)
Any ability that targets (even if it produces mana) isn't a mana ability so they can only be played at best at instant speed and doesn't cause issues
1) is functionally the same as not counting correctly before trying to cast. It's an illegal game action, but usually the only penalty is that now your opponent knows you have that card in your hand because it's easily reversible (you are allowed to tell your opponents what cards you have in hand/library/face down/other hidden zone, and you can lie about it)
Most players casually cast spells or activate abilities by floating the mana beforehand and THEN doing it, rather than announce that they're casting the spell THEN try to produce the mana. Which is completely valid according to the rules. So those edge cases with mana abilities that come with additional effects literally do not alter gamestates in the middle of an ability's resolution for casual players (or most competitive players not trying to actively cheat by finding rules loopholes that judges can't figure out).
Correct.
@dontmisunderstand6041 i can't be sure but I think the reason the rules are written this way is because wotc didn't want people having to "keep track" of their floating mana, and have it disappear because of poor planning.
Suppose I tap a swamp for a floating black mana, then I reconsider my action. Nothing is tieing the floating mana to the swamp, so strictly speaking i can't just take the action back. I now have to move forward remembering that I have unspent mana.
Rules as written mean you can keep that swamp untapped until the very last instant before making an irreversible action that actually matters.
this is one of your greatest clips of all time. i fucking love card games
The most recent funny interaction I've discovered is Scourge of the Skyclaves and Nethroi, Apex of Death. Nethroi, when it mutates, can revive any number of creatures from the GY that have a combined power of 10 or less. It's a simple enough effect that makes sense when you branch it out. You can revive 10 1/1s or a 5/5 and any number of 0/xs etc.
Scourge is unique in that its power and toughness are always 20 - the highest life total of all players. In a game of Commander for instance, the highest life total might be 40, so what does that mean? Well, it means that in the graveyard, Scourge has a power of -20. This means that as long as you're reviving Scourge, you can also revive very high power creatures like Emrakul or Impervious Greatwurm alongside it.
Yup. Your life total used to be able to go negative and counted as such for all effects as well so Death's Shadow could become larger then a 13/13 with phyrexian unlife
@@velphidrow Your life total still can be a negative number, if you have a way to still be considered a player in the game at that point (which means not having lost the game yet).
Surprised Crystalline Giant wasn't among those cards... that card basically required you to put pieces of paper/counters in a sack to draw from in what it could gain via its ability...
Random! Looooooool
I just roll a d10 until I get a new result.
... no, it just gives you a selection of options, one of which will occur at random. Anybody doing it the way you describe is a moron and/or cheater.
There’s some other fun interactions that used to happen.
Mana Vault allowed you to win BETWEEN turns since it basically puts a trigger before starting a turn, and after ending a turn. So then you can do certain actions during this “phase” which meant you could basically act during a non-open gamestate.
Rain of Gore is also another “why tf does it work like that?” It’s basically Nurse Burn where any ability that gains life = burn. HOWEVER there is a keyword called Lifelink which is if a creature does damage, you heal for the same amount. This however is not a spell or ability that inherently causes you to gain life; the damage done by the creature causes you to gain life. For that reason you can still heal off lifelink even during Rain of Gore. It’s weird but is the rules.
Lich’s Mirror also creates an infinite illegal gamestate that’s mandatory. It’s basically “if you’d lose the game, shuffle everything back, redraw a new opening hand, reset your life total.” But there are ways like Venom counters from Venominaga, where if you have enough counters on a player they lose. Well, the card says you can’t lose and just reset. But you still have the counters. Usually you’d just die again and Lich’s Mirror gets put back in the deck, so you die for real. But Lich’s Mirror says “shuffle back all cards you own” not control. So say you steal your opponent’s mirror and die to poison. Well it doesn’t get shuffled back but you still have it. And you still have your poison counters so you still keep dying.
Edit: there’s also cards that let you win and lose simultaneously for different reasons and can sometimes depend on how it’s sequenced. Culmination of Studies was my favorite. YGO text equivalent is basically “Banish your top X cards. For each spell banished, draw a card. For each trap banished, deal 500 damage.” So what happens when you deck yourself and burn your opponent to 0? Does deck order matter? Do you do all the actions at once? If you burn your opponent before decking out is that a win?
For Culmination of studies, the damage to the opponent would make them lose only whan the state based actions are checked, after the resolution of the spell. If you draw from an empty library, you lose immediately (during the resolution of the spell, before your oponent can lose from the damage).
@@isaz2425 no. Losing from drawing from an empty library is also a state based action (weirdly) (104.3c). In this case each player will lose the game the next time a player would recieve priority (104.3c, 104.3b). Since that is simultaneous, the game is a draw (104.4a).
If you do manage to win and lose the game simultaneously, due to 104.3f, you lose the game. That being said, I am not aware of any way for that to happen. The closest I could get would be electrolyze yourself while at 2 with an empty library and laboratory maniac, but lab man creates a replacement effect so you would win during the resolution whereas state based actions aren't checked until after.
@@seandun7083 The fact that there is a rule that literally reads "If a player would both win and lose the game simultaneously" just cracked me. OMG.
@@skuamato7886 However, while that cannot happen in Magic, it sorta can in YuGiOh. If you activate Relay Soul, summoning a piece of Exodia from your hand, then get all other pieces to hand, then bounce the piece you summoned, you technically win by Exodia and lose by Relay Soul at the same time. Master Duel has that coded to a draw.
the old animate dead + worldgorger dragon combo is hilarious. when i first found out about it i was like "no way, there's no way it works like that" then I thought about it and was like "well, I guess there's nothing saying it DOESNT work like that". MTG is just different.
Holy moly that's a combo. Your entire board repeatedly turns into a dragon and back, giving you infinite mana, enters the battlefield triggers, leaves the battlefield triggers and permanent ability activations (except non-haste creature abilities that cost {T}). And if there aren't any other creatures in anyone's grave and you can't win the game by looping, it's also judge call turbo
@@manjackson2772 the version of the deck that runs this combo generally runs Buried Alive to put Worldgorger Dragon and at least one more creature in the graveyard to stop the combo.
Someone in our playgroup in high school used this combo as his main gimmick all the time. He’d usually use the infinite mana for a fireball. I made him go through the motions each time, with either an Orim’s Chant to throw in the middle of it or a very beaten up copy mana drain I found at a comic shop and my own fireball. If I didn’t have any interruption, I’d make him go through it anyways so he’d sweat it out. Needless to say, we’re not friends anymore.
It is really hilarious, especially because it's one of the highest-risk combos you can do. If the Worldgorger gets killed, exiled, or even bounced with the ETB on the stack you can say goodbye to all of your permanents.
Shoutouts to the person at 0:56 seconds asking if this is just "summon a monster from the fucking side deck". That sweet, sweet summer child doesn't know about Companion.
The companion/commander zone is just the Extra Deck
Every time there's an MTG crossover I grow more attached to this channel lol
In the Volrath's Shapeshifter segment, someone in MBT's chat asked if Arcana Force XXI - The World is the only card in yugioh that cares about GY order. It is not. There's at least one more: Question.
I'm surprised Mystic Reflection didn't get a mention. There's some funny thing's that card can do, especially when effects that temporary turn things into creatures are involved. "Oh, that's a fancy combo your commmander could have pulled off, shame it's an indestructible land now."
First season of every card game: "This card is awful, but it is also broken and also could cause ruling issues"
I still love yugioh's magic knock off card: Mystical Refpanel. Such a stupid effect
Shout out to weird contrivances like pot of greed apparently targeting you and destruction by battle briefly being considered that monster "taking battle damage" for the purposes of like two cards
Let's not forget the card Serra Paragon which came out recently and didn't work correctly in the rules until over a month later.
The card says: Once during each of your turns, you may play a land from your graveyard or cast a permanent spell with mana value 3 or less from your graveyard. If you do, it gains “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, exile it and you gain 2 life.”
This effect didn't work for spells because you have to put spells into a zone called the stack before they go to the battlefield. And when things change zones they need to lose abilities at certain times, otherwise you could have a card with certain added abilities be shuffled into your library, and you have up to 4 copies of that card. So which one has those abilities.
Anyways, spells would lose the abilities they gained when being put onto the stack, when transitioning from the stack to the battlefield. Lands didn't have this issue because you play lands as a special action from one zone, directly to the battlefield.
At lerast the MtG community know why it doesn't work and how to fix it. It's not the Konami solution of telling everyone "figure it out on our own."
YGO has similar rules involving added qualities, we just don't consider being On Chain as a special location for a number of reasons, certain qualities are tracked when sent to GY/Banish(our Exile), but most are not(thus why YGO players consider soft-once-per-turn effects absurd, a card sent to the GY and resummoned gets to use its effect again), we have a LOT of cards that say, in some variation, "return card to field from GY, when it leaves the field(or "would go to the GY" or whatever), Banish it", and it works just fine, though it is possible with Monsters to get around it(Xyz Summons convert on-field monsters into Attached Material, which does not count as leaving the field, but does cause the monsters used as material to shed any added properties after resolving the Summon)
@@syrelian Those kind of replacement effects are fairly common (graveyard to field). The key difference is whether we are casting the card versus activating an effect. Casting always involves moving the card (or a copy) to the stack, whereas using an ability (effect), unless specified, keeps the card in its current zone until it has resolved.
So the issue is that Serra paragon said that the permanents gain the enter graveyard effect when they're cast instead of when they enter the battlefield
@@tinfoilslacks3750 correct. Spells that become permanents didn't used to gain abilities like that. So they had to modify the rules to allow it to work as that card intends.
Mutate is a mechanic that has a LOT of wierd interactions. In short, you can take a mutate card (or several) as well as another creature, and combine them into one creature with all the stats of the one card on top, but also the entire textbox of every card under it.
In a vacuum, it's not that bad, but there are a lot of ways already in MTG to change the types of a card to make it a valid Mutate target, AND lots of cards that have features which change based on other fluctuating factors.
You can mutate onto Vehicles. You can Mutate onto Transform cards. You can Mutate onto facedown Morph/Manifest creatures. You can mutate onto things you animated into creatures, and Magic has ways to turn any card on the field into a creature.
You can also Mutate onto Theros Gods which could lead to having a permanent on the field with no card types. It's not an enchantment anymore, and it's ability says it's not a creature. It's just *an object* with a textbox.
The list of wierd interactions is VAST.
The main saving grace is that there is (to my knowledge) no way to Mutate with more than one non-Mutate card in the stack (meaning we can't combine a Blightsteel Sliver Emrakul or something like that).
If we ever get a card that can grant mutate to other creatures you cast, I think the entire rules committee will need intense counseling.
You can mutate onto things that can make copies of itself
The copy will have all their abilities, but doesn't count as mutated
@Hanmacx That too.
Can say from experience, very fun stacking a Sea-Dasher Octopus and a Sawtusk Demolisher on top of a Scute Swarm.
@@AshenHawk96 I was playing Volo, Guide to Monsters in a Sultai Mutate deck using that Octopus
With right stacking, i could copy Mutate Spells, and stuff that cares about times Mutated like Insatiable Hemophage was dealing more than twice that much damage
Especially when you flash in that Octopus to trigger even more Mutate while the other trigger where still on the stack
@Hanmacx Yeah, I considered Volo. Basically every beast or bird with "when this creature mutates" gets 3x the triggers on the initial cast and 4x if you mutate another bird/beast. It's nuts.
I ended up just going more with Otrimi, +1 counters, auras/equipment, and ability granting. Mutate Voltron, basically. Less about triggers, more about building massive 10+ power Kaiju with 3-5 keywords and such.
@@AshenHawk96 yeah, couldn't use Otrimi because my Volo Mutate deck was standard legal xD
So sad that I didn't get to see my favorite rules nightmare card "Eye of the Storm" be talked about. Truly a nightmare when you read the oracle text and how it actually works.
Put it in my Imoti deck. Cascade works both going into and coming out of it.
@@seandun7083 Nothing feels as good as having 4 spellslinger decks at the table, someone drops Eye of the Storm, and then everyone begins the process of trying to game spells into the storm at the right time for maximum advantage. And then being unable to cast spells in response to the resolution of Eye of the Storm which casts the spells. I think at one point, we had a single turn go for two hours because of how much math we were doing when someone slapped a grapeshot into the storm.
So, I wonder, is the reason WotC is willing to make these nightmarish, hells of a card, is BECAUSE they have such a powerful ruling infrastructure.
Like, they don't need to worry too much about cards that clearly will cause ruling headaches because they are confident their system is strong enough to handle it effectively. Sometimes they are wrong. Most of the time they are not.
If only Yugioh had that confidence
funnily enough, most of these cards predate the monstrous comprehensive rules, and a lot of those rules were are written in BECAUSE of these disastrous cards
@@elleeVee Which is still great because it shows that Magic fucked up a lot in its younger years, but had the balls to go "fuck it" and just write out the rules meticulously for this stuff to explain such interactions and made them airtight enough to rarely fail utterly. And even then if it does fail utterly you'll usually get a shoutout of "we're not sure how you did this, but congratulations on doing it anyway"
We make our own hells anyway, we just have such an open and flexible rule state that it takes shit like hard-locked infinite loops to actually break the rules most of the time, rather then merely being confusing headaches, and we have a ruling for if you somehow make an infinite non-progressing non-actionable loop state, either the activating action is undone and considered an illegal move, or one of the offending cards is destroyed if the interaction was unable to be walked back or otherwise was not an action that could have been known(eg you attack something face-down, flipping it, which now causes an infinite loop state, or you resolve a mandatory effect that changes the board), also JP actually has a huge ruling database, for some reason English Konami has just never decided to actually reflect it, or write its own to account for minor ruling distinctions that already exist
@@elleeVee It's a difference in design perspective. MtG expects its players to be mature enough to be playing a game with friends in good faith. In other words, it expects that nobody is a whiny baby that is willing to cheat to win at a game. So, a lot of the rules assume a lot about each player's willingness to accept that reading the card explains the card. For the most part, rules lawyer nonsense won't reach a different conclusion unless you are trying to cheat in an extremely obvious way. Yugioh, on the other hand, knows that it's aiming for an audience between the ages of 6-12, who are, generally speaking, much more childish in their approach to games and winning.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 im confused as to what your point even is here
"These people will put anything bon black border" who is gonna tell him...there is no silver border anymore and yes we have stickers
Cold Snap was based on ideas for the third set in the Ice Age cycle from early MTG, which is why there are some very weird cards, like Panglacial Wurm
Two of my favorite cards are "Grip of Chaos" and "Confusion in the Ranks".
Grip makes every spell and ability with a single target assign the target randomly from all legal targets.
Confusion makes it so that whenever a permanent(of artifact, creature, or enchantment) comes into play, it gets swapped with something that shares a type with it that an opponent controls. What this means is that anything that bounces itself back into your hand allows you to stack it so that the switch occurs then it comes back to you, allowing you to steadily steal everyone's stuff. Throw something like "Kira, Great Glass-Spinner" or "Norin the Wary" into the mix for extra fun.
The funniest thing I know of in Magic is “fail to find” vs effects that reveal card.
Magic has a rule called “fail to find,” which essentially means that if you’re searching a “hidden zone,” aka a library or someone’s hand, and your search has a restriction on it (eg. it has to be a land, the card can’t cost more than 1, etc.), you can just say “Nope, I don’t have anything to search” and end it there. You can do this for any number of cards in the search, and there doesn’t even have to be a legal way that there wasn’t anything left; you can just do it, because it was simpler that way that forcing a rewind.
This works even if the cards are revealed, because the zone is still considered a hidden zone. So your opponent could visibly see cards you could pick, and you would still be able to say, “Nope, there’s nothing.”
Notably, even "with different names" is good enough to allow you to fail to find. You can use MTG's equivalent of Painful Choice, search out two cards instead of four so they have to pick those two to send to your grave and 'fail to find' any more. Yes, the entire rest of my deck is just copies of these two cards. What are you going to do, pick it up and check?
This doesn't work with "a card," though, because you can always find a card. It's the exception to the rule.
Just like Ignition Priority, Fail to Find isn't a rule so much as it is a lack of one, Yu-Gi-Oh inherited Ignition Priority and Fail to Find from Magic's game structure until rules were added to remove them.
@@AlexG0080 I was talking about Magic. YuGiOh wasn’t brought up.
@@jeezuhskriste5759: "Yes, fail to find was inherited from Magic. That’s what I was talking about. The video was about weird and confusing cards, not just in YuGiOh."
I was mostly making the point that fail to find isn't a rule, but a lack of one, and Yu-Gi-Oh added a rule to remove it, but Magic has not done that.
I want more MTG MBT
1:12
Correction, you can put things onto the stack as something resolves, due to various triggers and abilities, and what happens is they all go into the stack on top of that ability
For example, if you have a card that reads "Whenever you draw a card, do...." and you have another card that reads "draw a card, then..." The first ability triggers and goes on the stack during the resolution of the card that made you draw, it is just ignored until you finish resolution.
As far as the "You can't normally put a card on the stack mid-resolution", yesn't? There are effects like "Cast thing without paying its mana cost" that technically put things onto the stack mid-resolution, but they generally deliberately don't let you pay mana in order to avoid Krark Clan Ironworks-esque shenanigans.
The full effect that's on the stat resolves entirely, simultaneously but also in the order of the text on the card. Functionally there really is no such thing as "mid-resolution" technically.
Trinisphere is interesting with
- Phyrexian Mana, or Hybrid mana is chosen first, that changes the mana being paid
- then Trinisphere checks if mana is
Anything with Improvise/Convoque/Delve doesn't care for Trinisphere if the cost is high enough
For videos on rulings, my favorite channel is Judging FTW. www.youtube.com/@JudgingFtW
Here are my favorite videos from there:
Henzie Torre and Serra Paragon (There used to be errors in the comprehensive rules that made these two cards not work) ua-cam.com/video/Y03iu48lDDY/v-deo.html
Thespian Stage + Urza's Saga (Most complicated interaction that you need to know to play a deck optimally.) ua-cam.com/video/QkDsflKX9l4/v-deo.html
Dash + Dress Down (Another complicated interaction that occurs in competitive magic.) ua-cam.com/video/Qfvk0C1TEcs/v-deo.html
Crypic Spires (This card tells you to write on the card.) ua-cam.com/video/CeKu0aE6_Ug/v-deo.html
Suspend + Creature lands (Misleading reminder text.) ua-cam.com/video/bzSWPELti60/v-deo.html
Hi, I just want to share with everyone this ruling on Humility
This is the current interaction between Humility and Opalescence: The type-changing effect applies at layer 4, but the rest happens in the applicable layers. The rest of it will apply even if the permanent loses its ability before it’s finished applying. So if Opalescence, Humility, and Worship are on the battlefield and Opalescence entered the battlefield before Humility, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments. (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities. (Humility) Layer 7b: Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4. (Opalescence). Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). But if Humility entered the battlefield before Opalescence, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities (Humility). Layer 7b: Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4 (Opalescence).
I have played MtG on and off since when Panglacial Wurm was in print. I have no idea how layers work.
more fun things is better with magus of the moon.
The creature variant of blood moon.
When both are in play, all nonbasics are still mountains. But nothing on the battlefield has that ability.
What i just read is: No matter what they become 4/4
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena Actually, it depends on the timing. With 2 opalescence and 1 humility and the humility entered in between, you will have a 4/4 opalescence, a 4/4 humility and a 1/1 opalescence.
@@ScorpioneOrzion Well it is a good thing i play EDH where it is a singleton where i don't have to deal with fucked up riles interactions that involves multiple copies of a card
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena that is until they use another card to copy it... even in edh you can make infinite copies of anything...
9:15 Actually the CR doesn't say *anything* about what to do about a spell that was cast from the library being an illegal declaration (which is what happens here), presumably the spell is supposed to go back to the library, except that zone is one where undoing the moving of cards to or from that zone is prohibited as part of the undoing an illegal declaration, yet, Panglacial Wurm is *also* required by the rulebook to leave the stack because of cource it can't stay there being that it was not a legal declaration to cast it (which begins by moving it onto the stack).
Well, moving a card off the stack back to the library is fine, in and of itself, but the problem arises when Millikin has moved Progenitus from being the top card of the library to the graveyard (mill), which is then replaced by Progenitus' effect of it being revealed and shuffled into its owner's library. Now the library has been shuffled *while* Panglacial Wurm was in the process of being cast (and thus on the stack and *not* in the library). Now if that casting attempt becomes illegal, where is Panglacial Wurm *supposed to be* in that library? The rulebook provides *no* answer to this question.
22:45 wait until he finds out about Experiment Kraj
kinda sad i missed that thread, i'd have loved for them to talk about First Day of Class + Putrid Goblin + Skirk Inspector (which is a legal infinite mana combo in the MTG equivalent of Common Charity)
it's an infinite combo, but it's not too difficult to handle the rules related to it. you just have to know that +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out.
Every MTG card printed after 2010 basically reads "Make your opponent want to FFFking kill you."
That artifact creature loop thing is basically just an infinite royal magical library
Or like 2 pre-errata Night Assailant targeting each other in the GY, both as legal targets, and adding both back to hand.
I need MBT reacting to the whole MtG rulings iceberg.
As a long time MTG Modern nerd it's hilarious how we took KCI for granted and never really bothered. It's been a while since I saw this POS and it's hilarious to see someone explain MTG shenanigans to YGO players 😂
14:22 What's the "Pot of Extravagance irreparable game state" thing he's referencing?
thank you marincess blue tron may your karns be blessed
Wish MBTYugioh made more MTGYugioh content
I run panglacial worm in my worm deck. I just memorized the cost and don't use it's search shenanigans effect unless I for sure have enough.
MtG players: "Haha yugioh is dumb because they have "missing the timing"
KCI:
The reason why you can use Panglacial Wurms effect is because its effect allows you to basically ADD playing it to the resolution of a library search. Also, to use that ability, you need enough mana to actually cast it before you can even TRY to cast it from the library. It's not the only card to work in such a fashion either. Another prime example of a card that adds the ability to play cards in the middle of a resolution is Eye of the Storm, another old card. However, this time there are MULTIPLE cards that can be added onto the stack while Eye is in the middle of resolving. And those cards all resolve BEFORE eye finishes its own resolution.
"If this happens I'm DQ'ing you." I'm dying
E: This isn't quite correct, see replies
Blood Moon is fucked up because it looks like it should just give nonbasic lands the Mountain land type. Right? Like if a card in yugioh said "All effect monsters become Dragons", we'd understand that their creature type just changed. But no. Blood Moon MAKES THEM INTO THE CARD MOUNTAIN. Their name becomes "Mountain" and they become a basic land that taps for {R} and does nothing else.
Their name doesn't become Mountain. What Blood Moon does is delete all other land subtypes beyond Mountain and make them lose all their abilities except "T: Add R". Their name stays the same, and any other types or supertypes the card might have remains (so for instance, if you control a legendary land it will be a legendary mountain with the same name it had before, so it won't be sent to the grave right away but you still couldn't play another copy of it, and stuff like Dryad Arbor goes from being a Land Creature - Forest Dryad to a Land Creature - Mountain Dryad, but would still be a green 1/1)
@@siberianrabbit4126 that's even less intuitive!!!
@@manjackson2772 don't blame me, i voted for kodos
That isn't what Blood Moon does. It basically replaces their land type with Mountain and their text with "T: Add R"
The lands still keep their names and legendary lands stay legendary.
To clarify how the rules text of Blood Moon is supposed to be interpreted to reach the correct understanding, "mountains" in MtG are land cards named "mountain" with no printed abilities* and the mountain subtype. The specified cards _become_ mountains.
Edit: as previously stated, Blood Moon does not affect names or supertypes (like legendary). I cannot explain this without referencing the rules, and even then I'm not convinced you can figure this out by any way other than checking Gatherer's rulings on Blood Moon exactly.
*In mtg, if a land has a forest/plains/island/mountain/swamp subtype (a "basic land type"), it automatically has "tap: add [color]." Basic lands don't have any text because of this.
My brain melted listening to this... so many cards in MTG are potential nightmares to resolve...
Almost every card works as you think it should in a vacuum.
The main issues come from when confusing cards are paired together.
Also there are official rulings up on Gatherer/Scryfall for common issues with cards.
7:50 I dreamt up a more complex version of this some years ago abusing Milikin, Oracle of Muldaya, and Progenitus which, yes, totally breaks the comprehensive rulebook (CR).
Mutate QUICKLY gets out of hand.
I called Mutate Digivolving then the Digimon card game comes out and literally makes Mutate into Digivolving
I am surprised Mutate didn't come into play here. My favorite interaction keeps being that Gideon Oathsworn does NOT explicitly become a human creature, but a nondescript soldier creature. Meaning you could mutate on top of him, making a non Planeswalker creature with planeswalker abilities
@@andresarancio6696 yeah with the sword from new capena it not as unique now tho still really funny tho you can also use Swift Reconfiguration to make said mutated creature walker into a car
You know what's sad? Like, Shakespearian levels of sad? I can understand all of these weird rulings in MTG than the base fundamentals of Yugioh
That's legitimately a skill issue
18:26 so since it's you doing the searching, if you find a panglacial worm, do you cast it?
Man, the entire time I was hoping someone would bring up Gitrog loops with Dakmor Salvage and the OG Eldrazi Titans. That has to be one of my favorite interactions in all of MtG.
I wanna know about these
@@KeshavKrishnan the card The Gitrog Monster has the ability "whenever one or more land cards are put into your graveyard from anywhere, draw a card". Dakmor Salvage is a land that has dredge 2 "If you would draw a card, you may put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard instead. If you do, return this from your graveyard to your hand". The original 3 Eldrazi titans, Emrakul,The Aons Torn for example, all have "whenever this card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, shuffle your graveyard into your library".
Those are the 3 relevant abilities.
During the cleanup step, players with more than 7 cards on hand discard down to 7, until end of turn effects end, and damage is removed from creatures. Then, you check to see if any triggered abilities are put into the stack. If not, the turn ends. If there are, players get a chance to respond to them as normal, then when the stack is empty and everyone passes priority, there is another cleanup step and the process repeats.
The interaction comes when you have a gitrog monster out and discard dakmor salvage to hand size. After cleanup, gitrog triggers and you draw a card. You can choose to replace that draw with dredging dakmor salvage. Go to the next cleanup and you still have more than 7 cards, so repeat the process.
This lets you put an arbitrary amount of cards from your deck into your graveyard, drawing whenever dredging hits a land, though you still need to discard down to 7 after. The eldrazis can shuffle your graveyard in to stop you from milling out. I'm not sure what the normal line of play is to win from there, but you should be able to find something, though I assume in a competitive setting you might get a slow play warning after a while.
@@seandun7083 so the line to win is basically whatever you want, since you can effectively get any cards from your library
Season of the witch really ask hard the questions of “could attack”. Like if you are in commander and you play a wall and could play your commander (one that makes walls able to attack)
and give the wall boots of haste, does it die if you don’t?
It’s kind of asking if you are force to do everything in your power to make it possible to attack or if it’s allow to do everything in your power to make it impossible (or anything inbetween).
I think an easy ruling is to say if during the choose attacker stage, if it doesn’t have a line of text on the card or aura/equipment/ability that gives it the line “this creature can not attack” or has summoning it dies. Only reason I favor this only because it’s more clear I feel in most cases though it may feel less fair and still probably need to be ironed out
From the rulings "a creature won't be destroyed if it was unable to attack that turn, even if you were able to enable it to attack". So it will be fine when if you could have payed for ghostly prison or equipped swiftfoot boots or played arcades, etc.
I'm still not sure how silent arbiter works though.
@@seandun7083So, I double checked the rulings, and Season of the Witch has the ruling that it applies to all creatures that could have been chosen to attack during the declare attackers step. So I think Season should destroy all creatures that didn't attack, because when you got to the declare attackers step, it could have been any of them.
KCI is such a funny card. It was banned only partially because the deck was good, more problematic was the obscure rulings knowledge required to play *and play against* the deck. It was slowing down tournaments with judge calls
28:10 "they will put anything in black border"
[looking at stikers]
indeed
We learned a lot of lessons with this, but I think the biggest lesson that we could ever have learned is that MBT's viewers do not know the definition of the word innocuous.
To be honest, most interactions mentioned rarely come up, and even then it's almost always in EDH where people can do whatever silly things they want. Meanwhile in yugioh judges were left scratching their head with Guardian Chimera last year. Sure, Magic gets more complex but at least they've tried to give players and judges the tools while barely any exist in yugioh.
even outside of not having a rule book. yugioh has issues where the wrong phrase was used so a card had to get a "it works this way ruling" despite it not reading as such all because shuffled was used instead of returned to the deck. its worse than the kaiju slumber as kaiju sulmber was a flawed idea from the start rulings wise
@@randomprotag9329 We get those wording issues very rarely these days, thank goodness, at least in English, thanks to PSCT, instead you just get confusing ones like Clock Lizard's return and resummon being a fucking bastard to program for sims because it considers a card in the GY a valid target for its Extra Deck effect, which makes sense in gameplay but not within hard mechanisms in a game that doesn't allow you to activate effects with no targets
@@syrelian Well, as mentioned, slumber is a modern card, and also it is programmed incorrectly in master duel.
I freaking love MtG MBT content. I crave it.
Love the description of selvala failing to pay as "good luck with that"
Opposition Agents 'You control your opponent' effect, I wonder if someone's ever got 'I control you, so I make you concede' to work in kitchen table magic. That kind of thing sounds like it'd be ruled on day 1 in a proper tournament setting, but it could fly in casual games
How on earth did Dryad Arbor not get mentionned?
Video Titel: Magic The Gathering
Description: Hearthstone
Yu-Gi-Oh channel btw
21:40 - this and so many other problems could be solved kinda easily by saying that preventing a card by cost needs to be made right after it's casted or paid.
like if you call an activation and the guy increases cost you can't pay. if you pay and the guy increases cost, it doesn't resolve. If it starts taking action before the cost is increased it's too late.
I played KCI at a lot of COMP REL events including a Pro Tour. Deck was crazy and a lot of fun to win. I stopped playing it when the "meta" way to beat this deck became winning game 1 and then taking the maximum amount of time possible to respond to EVERY action so they the KCI deck would lose in time. This was not cheating but got cracked down on shortly before they banned the card. Even Matt Nass stopped playing this deck (who was the best pilot of the deck and debatably the best modern player in the world in while playing it) because after winning multiple major events on it people started doing this to him and he couldn't get results.
Ah, the Tearlaments approach
@@amiablereaper Yes but even worse imo. Yugioh players are a lot less sharky. Mostly because of enforcement.
@@googleisskynet9112 I have no clue why angle shooting like that isn't considered unsporting conduct according to the rules. By definition, it is unsporting conduct.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 If you look at the history of the game and sportsman-like conduct there is a long history of high-level players getting away with straight-up cheating-like conduct when it comes to angle shooting to the point where if it's not in the rules it OK. Stuff like arguing with a judge to get a ruling in your favor was commonplace. In contrast, I think Konami's 0 policy stance is also a little silly. I would personally I think somewhere in the middle (closer to Knonami) leads to the best play experience.
@@googleisskynet9112 There's also a long history of actual cheating, not just cheating-like conduct. At no point have "professional" TCG tournaments or their winners been respectable or legitimate.
Since LoR is getting scaled back to be PvE centric, some friends and I have been trying to codify LoR's rules to approximate paper play of it. Obviously some effects are impossible or untennable in paper, like random effects created cards and game long tracking, but even if you remove all of those there's some goofy rules stuff.
One of the funniest ruling issues comes from auras turning temporary effects into permanent effects. If you have voice of the risen out (allies have +2/+0) and a husk on the field (a 0/1 unit with "the next time you play an ally, kill me to grant that ally my stats and keywords"), when you play another unit it will kill the husk, give the unit +2/+1 according to the husk's stats at time of death, and then the unit will get an additional +2/+0 from voice of the risen too. Then, if voice of the risen leaves the field the unit loses the +2/+0 but not the +2/0 the husk had.
Another funny one is Leona's solar flare and sun hawk. Leona and sun hawk both have daybreak effects (effects with play timing windows) that put an effect on the stack. But Leona *also* puts her effect on the stack whenever another daybreak effect resolves. So if you play Sunhawk while Leona is out, sunhawk will put its skill on the stack, the stack will resolve, and without passing priority to anybody the game will immediately move to an entirely new stack with Leona's effect on it now.
And then there's spellshield, which is just a complete nightmare all around.
You’re sort of correct that, like in Yugioh, in Magic you can only play cards during an open game state *according to the game rules*. However, in Magic one of the golden rules is that if a card contradicts the rules, the card text supersedes the rule it contradicts. So because many, many cards grant special timing windows to cast cards, in practice it’s actually fairly common to cast spells during the resolution of a different effect.
as fast as you noped warp world makes me smile, such a fun card, CHAOS FTW!!
Use Words of Waste to replace Selvala's draw during the panglacial wurm cast.
The KCI thing gets less weird the more in depth you go into magic. Effectively, state based actions are checked after the resolution of things on the stack and when they are put onto the stack. So, once you cast the spell by paying costs with KCI, the spell is put onto the stack then SBA's are checked and they see some triggers. Those triggers are put onto the stack in any order the controller desires then that player gains priority and the stack can begin to resolve.
Manalogs has a good MTG video about ruling nightmares, covers a lot of the same cards and its pretty funny. Card games are so hilariously screwed up sometimes.
26:06 Is that a thing that can actually happen? You call a judge over to clarify an interaction and they can just be like “Nope! Figure it out yourself, nerds.”
i'm banking on the fact that noone is ever going to play season of the witch in a real sanctioned match, if they do i'm fucked but i'll have to come up with a ruling
@@siberianrabbit4126 Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on if the Gitrog combo is slow play? Since it's not _technically_ a loop.
@@najawin8348 i don't get paid enough to figure out cEDH rulings
nah but for real i never took time to hash out the arguments for and against it to figure out where i stood, last time i interacted with the discourse i saw someone type "well ACTUALLY it's different from four horsemen because [five walls of text]" which usually isn't a good sign but I know it's a complex issue with a lot of moving parts
Panglacial Wurm kinda reminds me of Bait Doll's effect, except Bait Doll explicitly activates
genuinely surprised no one brought up end step cleanup loops involving the gitrog monster
I know this is an old video but i wanna throw the following into the ring: Four Horsemen Combo.
Normally inMagic, if you would create a looping effect combo you demonstrate the loop, state how many times you would like it to resolve, then skip to the post-resolution. If the loop lacks a way to stop resolving then the game ends in a draw.
Four Horsemen is a combo that kills your opponent by milling yourself to put a bunch of cards in your graveyard in the correct order, with an effect to shuffle your gy into the deck if they weren't in the right order.
However this means it's an infinite loop with a theoretical potential end point that kills your opponent. Except that end point is non-deterministic - there's potential you NEVER mill the combo in the correct order. Because of this non-determinism you cannot shortcut the loop and must complete each step in order. This will take a long time and so Four Horseman is effectively banned from competitive play, because playing it will almost guarantee you a "slow play" DQ.
Now I want to bring up Displacer Kitten as a card that probably falls into this category.
Considering how much stupid shit surrounds it in the first place, it would not surprise me if there was multiple instances of Displacer Kitten causing nightmare scenarios.
I don't know any specific ones, but I'd be willing to bet my life on it.
yugioh: most games with have a ruling question or a why did that happen,
magic: few games have a ruling question, but when they happen nobody can figure it out
The season of the witch mystery is almost older than the avg age of all humans
Things that have always been interesting to me:
Auras being put into play without explicitly stating a target while doing so. Example: You can enchant a creature that has shroud or hexproof or even protection in play by simply putting; not casting which would require a valid target, an aura into play. Unless stated otherwise on the card. BUT if the card has protection it falls off due to state based effects. Example: animate dead or necromancy + Karmic guide which allows karmic guide to target itself in the graveyard due to state based effects (the game checking t see if all things are currently legal and if need be correcting the game state like an if else statement in code).
First Strike. A static ability that literally creates another combat damage step in the game state which is kind of ridiculous when you think about it since you have clearly defined steps in the game and this very common mechanic adds a new step to the game which inherently makes it not as intuitive as one would thing once you get into the details of the ability.
Actually protection with aura's being put on the battlefield can't be enchanted. For example a Animar, Soul of Elements who has protection from black and white, can't be enchanted by a darksteel mutation put on the battlefield. A white aura that removes all abilities from the enchanted creature.
Coming from Runeterra I did a fucking double take at MtG's first strike mechanic. The idea that first strike creates its own entire damage step previous to the normal damage step for first strike units to assign their damage is insane. Runeterra is obviously a much simpler game but "attacker does damage before it's blocker" seems like a pretty intuitive feature to implement.
@@tinfoilslacks3750 That of attackers do damage before blockers, is basically "all creatures the turn player controls have first strike"
I am watching this and as a vanguard player who mains DI when I saw enigmatic assassin get scrolled past I just laughed. That card is busted in so many "fun" ways
Nephilim Format is where you play non-legendary creatures as commanders, so Quicksilver Elemental and Volrath's Shapeshifter are great additions to the Meme Tier!
I would love to see yugi-tubers play a game of commander. I think it would be pretty fun to see
We salute magic for being the first tcg and helping make sure the rest don’t have have to deal with as much nonsense.
I was 2 years old when Season of the Witch came out. I always forget just how OLD Magic is.
here are some fun ones not Shown
Scourge of the Skyclaves + Nethroi, Apex of Death
Scourge has */* meaning it's stats are checked by an effect regardless where it is. it has 20/20 minus the highist life amoung players. so it can have negitive stats
Nethroi brings cards from the grave that total 10 power, if Scourge has negitive power, you can bring back more then 10 power
sharuum the hegemon + any Copy
in MTG there is the Legend Rule, where you can only have 1 legendary with the same name in play, if you ever have multiple, you send all but 1 to the grave. however this action by passes the stack. Sharuum has a Enter the Battlefield trigger, that lets you put an Artifact into play from the grave. the Legend rule must be resolved before her Effect can trigger, and before it targets, so Sharuum can target herself, bringing herself back infinity.
Teferi, Time Raveler + Knowledge Pool
Teferi states that your opponents can only cast cards at Sorcery Speed, in other words, they may not cast cards unless it starts a Stack.
Knowledge Pool states that whenever a player casts a card, it is Exiled {remove from play} and they MAY cast another card exiled by Knowledge Pool. since the choice to cast is part of the effect, it's adding to the stack. which Teferi states they can't.
Urza's Saga + Blood Moon
Urza's Saga is a Land Enchantment, with a Special Subtype called "Saga"
Sagas have a list of effects with Numbers, when played they gain a page counter and trigger the effect equal the amount {and gain 1 every turn}, and after checks to see if they counters equal the highest number it lists. if it is equal or highier it is sent to the grave
Blood Moon turns non-basic lands into mountains. but the thing about these effects is that it does not replace Card Types other then what it states. so it's still an Enchantment Saga but now with no Saga Effects, so it dies as soon as it sees it's counter are equal or greater then 0
making a Planeswaker not a Planeswaker
there are a few ways to do this.
Planeswakers are cards that enter with loyalty counters, and gain or lose them based on it's effects. your opponent can attack a Planeswaker to deal damage to it, removing counters. if a Planeswaker has 0 loyalty it dies. but if you make it not a Planeswaker. it's effects function normally. but it can't be attack and can exist with 0 counters
I used to have a deck that was R/U, and basically was a NIGHTMARE in a group game, possibility storm, hive mind, knowledge pool, forced fruition. After I get two of those cards out, everyone quits since casting any spell takes FOREVER, AND if a people try to respond, no one knows what to do LOL
Game designed by math nerds vs game designed by lawyers