Hey Everyone! I know most of you aren't here for Deltarune content, but this is something I've really wanted to make for a long time. I hope you enjoy! Link to part 2 here: ua-cam.com/video/VWxiwH9n0OM/v-deo.html
16:48 COUNTER POINT In the Japanese version it translated roughly to “that person they’re with, they kinda look like …” HALF BREAD CHAOS SAVED THE DAY WHERES MY MONEY
Personally I feel like that's still a little too vague to come to a definitive conclusion. I'll rewatch that video though to see if HBC gives any additional context
@@ner6886 I doubt she’d say toriel think about if you were in this situation You see the person you have a crush on next to someone who looks like your old friend You wouldn’t say “hey that looks like my friends mom” you’d think they look like your friend
I've always thought of Ralsei as a representation of Kris' monstersona from when they were younger and wanted to fit in better. Kris is slightly unnerved by Ralsei's existence due to what he represents, and Ralsei only desires to be accepted and connected with Kris. That would sidestep the gross romantic stuff where Ralsei is Asriel, and can also frame the romantic subtext between the two as a magical based metaphor for self-love and acceptance of your past and insecurities That's what I've always used when writing fan content, and it solves so many problems elegantly
counterargument: the fact that asriel is an anagram of ralsei, ralsei looks on a surface level like asriel, and that noelle (japanese translation says this is whats implied) says ralsei kind of looks like asriel, the game very much trying to call your attention to them being similar and very much TRYING to make the acid tunnel uncomfortable. it doesnt matter if he actually is asriel thats what the game is trying to tell you.
And Susie also says that Ralsei looks like Asriel. Again, all the goats look alike, but the game has a whole segment just before sealing the first dark fountain that's basically "Holy shmores! Ralsei looks a looooot like Asriel!". It's pretty clear they are meant to look unusually alike. Very on the nose too.
Smth else to add about the spade king knowing about the prophecy is that lancer himself knows about it and even tell Susie and Kris about it if you skip Ralsei monologue about it, which would be kind of weird if lancer knew about it but not his dad.
Counter point to the "Darkners aren't objects" statement: The objects could very easily be represting their actual backstories as objects (E.g. Queen as a laptop might have been brought into the Unused classroom at some point), and turning them into backstories for that darkners themselves. Tennna could, for example, be the one who set up spamton as a spam bot. Edit: This has not been completely ignored, people have covered this very concept before. Edit 2: You can't just assume that "Darkners aren't objects" is 100% right and then use it as a "Get debunked lol" when you haven't actually looked at the arguments properly?
Point 4: I don't see why making otherwise wholesome scenes have a degree of disgust and worry is necessarily a bad thing. If Toby wants to explore the player doing stuff Kris doesn't want, then making a scene appear wholesome when Kris is uncomfortable is the way to do that? And Ralsei and Asriel are clearly set up to appear as parralel, regardless of how parralel they actually are? The anagram names? And I don't think anyone didn't immediately react like "OMG ASRIEL"? after Chapter 1?
"Why spend time on a point if you're going to debunk it" because thats how you make balanced arguments that don't end up with someone random pointing out a flaw that you ALREADY HAVE A SOLUTION TO, but decided to withhold for some reason?
I do want to note, I am making these points for the purpose of having a nuanced interaction. I do not personally believe Jaru's theory, but I do find that a lot of your counter points don't actually counter his points.
Hey, thanks for the comment! I'll go through each of your points in order. The darkners having the same backstory as the objects doesn't work for spamton and tenna. A spam ad and a television don't have a reasonable way for them to meet as objects. As I mentioned in the "salt clarification", I don't think that darkners know as much as ralsei does when it comes to the legend. Spade king could be unaware of the turning to stone part. Jaru's point was that he doesn't know the legend. Even if spade only knows the vaguest of outlines, that still counts as knowing it. We can just agree to disagree on the gross wholesome scenes being a bad thing. I feel like that's an extremely heavy handed way to deal with that plotline. Ralsei and Asriel clearly do have connection of some kind, that is obvious. Despite what our inital reactions might be, however, it's clear that they are very different when you take the time to actually compare them. As for the spending time on a point you're going to debunk, my issue was not doing it in general, but the fact that jaru goes on about it for around 5 minutes in his video. I thought I made it pretty clear that theres nothing wrong with addressing counter arguments, but it should be done quickly. It slows down the pacing and it makes the point harder to follow. I appreciate the comment! Glad to have the discussion.
Asriel still has no horns, im still inclined that she would associate him with Toriel Ralsei acts very feminine and Toriel despite being toxic still acts motherly, they have the same horns and both use glasses, unless Asriel has acquires visual deficiency from Toriel's DNA but thats an hypotesis
For the 1st thing. Even if you ignored the contradictions. It would still rely on a MASSIVE assumption that determination gives life. When all we see it do is bring back the dead. What I'm saying is that there is a pretty big difference between giving life to something that was already alive. And giving life to a random object. (the closest we get is flowey. And even than he has asriel.)
is it a massive assumption? we know the creation of dark fountains involves determination in some way. and dark fountains do give life to objects beyond just bringing back the dead.
You just answered your own demand. Flowey: object + dust + determination = life Ralsei: object + dust + determination = life Where is the misunderstanding?
@@TheRealSuperKirby first of all. The Ralsei being object + dust is part of the theory. So you just proved the assumption..... with another assumption. It's also purely circular reasoning. It also doesn't explain the other items coming to life. Unless we say they all have dust. Which would just require another assumption.
@@TheRealSuperKirby normal dust. Not monster dust. Unless you are saying all the dust is monster dust. Which would again be an assumption. Or we say that normal dust can also be used to give life which would be..... You already know.
7:10 not gonna be that guy, but I always assumed that Queen used to be a computer in the Old Classroom that being how some people in the Card Kingdom knew about the Universal Mother.
13:27 this is likely not the case as the adult form of him in undertale is designed more like toriel and of course ralsei. In fact I’d go as far as to say that ralsei looks like the in between state of child Asriel and hyperdeath Asriel which makes a lot of sense since ralsei is a teenager. The biggest difference between the two is the pink on ralsei which could be explained away with ralsei being the red horns headband.
17:02 Massive disagree. Noelle is actually pretty familiar with Asriel, so it would make sense for her to make that kind of observation. Plus, Ralsei tends to get disregarded during chapter 2, but people still occasionally notice his presence, like when Berdly calls him Kris' lackey
26:35 "writing himself into a corner"? Dude. That's just setting up a joke. Being unserious doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense with the rest of the game. I really don't see where that is faulty writing. Although that doesn't have much to do with the rest of the video so its not that important for the merit of the video.
Jaru is 200% the MatPat of Deltarune, tho. And I liked MatPat, but 50% of his theories where downright wrong. Jaru is way worse in that aspect. He makes catastrofic mistakes on each step he takes. His videos are more an spectacle than educational material.
Yeah, I was originally going to make a comment that I don't agree with Kooki on this, but I felt like it disrupted the pacing too much for a random side tangent about magic existing or not. Long story short I personally think humans do have magic, but I feel like the key point here is that in undertale there's a clear distinction between humans and monsters using determination.
@@shadowhaxor99 Mhm. To address another point Kooki made about Toby Fox contradicting himself: wasn't it the case that humans didn't imprison monsters because they could use magic & humans couldn't, but rather because monsters could take human souls and, in doing so, become much more powerful than humans? Humans can take monster souls, but other than letting them cross a "Soul Barrier", it apparently doesn't change anything. As for Determination, I don't think it was the case in UT that magic and DT couldn't coexist in a single body (otherwise Asriel couldn't have taken Chara's soul), but simply that monsters are made of magic and nothing else. They didn't have enough physical mass like humans did in order to handle DT, as Always explained.
At 7:45 you use cat posters and the Gerson drawing and playing board as examples of light world objects not being turned into dark world objects. Yes we don’t see Gerson but we do see the chess board used in the first dark world as the path you walk along. When C. Round reaches the end, he is crowned. And the cat posters are seen in Cyber World after Susie and Ralsei leave your party. (Edited for spelling)
While that is true, our point was more focused on asking why they don't become sentient beings. Much like the consumable items we mentioned, why do they become a part of the world instead of coming to life if determination makes these inanimate objects turn into living beings?
I always assumed that in order for Lightners to comprehend the Dark Worlds, the Darkners use Light World's objects as vessels or as things that could represent them, similarly to biblical angels, who used things common for people to see (eyes, wings, columns, torches ect) for parts of their body that they present to humans. It's not that darkners ARE the objects we see in real world, but merely something they chose// something that was given them to represent themselves. Honestly it's an interesting topic on itself
Theory or an idea that I saw about who Ralsei might be, which not many people discuss - Ralsei might be the "ideal" Kris. Nice, kind and a monster, that looks just like the rest their family, that fits in society. It's a sad idea to think about, but it is interesting nonetheless
@@shadowhaxor99 Very, Very insteresting, as we have seen, in Deltarune, darkness acts not like the abscence of light but something that opposes It, perharps Darkness itself could create shadows? "Light shadows" reality itself would only exist If Darkness is casting shadow on something. Perharps the creations of dark fountains happens because Determination itself when striking, pushes reality itself closer to the Darkness, the light shadow grows bigger like a ball getting closer to a dark lightbulb, the shadow itself while getting bigger, also gets fuzzy and harder to understand. I can't think of a proof that Darkness itself came before the light world though, or they both need each other shadows to exist? Maybe thats what the prophecy is about
I feel like the Ralsei and Kris dynamic is MEANT to be creepy, us being given options to be romantic towards Ralsei despite the fact that Ralsei tea heals Kris very little We’re forcing Kris to romanticise an effigy of their brother, or at least someone they aren’t too interested in, and we’ll likely be confronted on that in the future
Maybe it's because it's such an uncomfortable topic for me, but I feel like there's ways to still do something similar without going as far as Jaru's theory would imply.
I'm inclined to agree with what Salt said above. Ralsei and Kris' dynamic CAN be weird and offputting without it literally being incestuous, and it probably is meant to be weird to some degree. The game goes out of it's way to make us feel bad for puppeting Kris around, and that would extend to their relationships, too. I just don't think Ralsei is meant to be any kind of stand-in for Asriel, specifically because Ralsei is always the one STARTING those romantic connotations, NOT the player. If he WERE a stand-in for Asriel, it'd imply Asriel has feelings for Kris, and that is so much more than just "creepy", it'd be straight up disgusting. On par with Mad Father's narrative lmao
@@kookiautumn1710 @shadowhaxor99 Oh, certainly, me saying that is not me agreeing with Jaru's theory in any way, it's incredibly flawed and is what i consider the bad side of crack deltarune theories. It's why i called Ralsei an "effigy" of Kris' brother or "someone they aren't too interested in" in case the Ralsei Asriel lookalike connection isn't going to be focused on. Which I believe it certainly will be since Susie blaintantly points out that Ralsei looks like Kris' mom and could pretend to be a long lost cousin in the last section of Chapter 2. This piece of evidence, for me, sidestepping the issue of Noelle not finishing her sentence when seeing Ralsei and Susie. I just think it was emphasised so much in this video that this uncomfortable thing CAN'T happen even though it would be a perfect way to tie into our control over Kris being something they don't like, which appears to be one of, if not THE main point of Deltarune. By the way, this is a great video, It's great to see someone other than Andrew really TALKING about Jaru's insane way of theorising.
Thank you for hosting this week's "DO YOU KNOW DELTARUNE" I'm so glad I was allowed to be a guest here! Though I'd appreciate it if next time my opponent actually knew a little more about MY favourite characters, specifically. I can excuse blatant misunderstanding of the themes of the source material, but I draw the line at not having obscure knowledge about Spade King.
I kind of do want to go with a _version_ of the darkners are objects given animation theory, in the sense that perhaps the memories of a darkner is formed out of the histories of the objects in question, this could be an answer to how darkners are aware of things before/without/beyond the existence of their dark worlds use the laptop in the computer lab? queen will remember a version of that 'Noelle Loves Traffic She Looks It Up All The Time!' play with the cards or other toys in the unused classroom? the card castle's court will remember a version of that 'They were like gods to us, those who gave us purpose.' bring objects from one room to another in the past? their darkworld counterparts will tell you they're old friends as for the nature of how some objects are animated by darkness as terrain or items, perhaps it relates to a lack of history. something that was created recently, or never moved anywhere during its time existing... alternatively, maybe it has to do with size or complexity, something too small? an item, to big? terrain. It could even be related to a lightner's ability to passively personify the objects they interact with, someone is far more likely to characterize a toy or tool than they might think of the floor or a table or a sign on the wall... perhaps a darkner's will is formed out of the very dreams of the lightners that interacted with them in the lightworld.
This video is like watching 2 math majors struggle to figure out what 2+2 is. Jaru's ralsei video is bad but at least it isn't condesending at the same time.
i think the connection between ralsei and asriel regardless is implying an incest and that it is part of the narrative of your forcing your will unto kris but alas
About the whole teleportation thing, yeah, there do seem to be ways to teleport within a given dark world, but it is still notable that Ralsei is the only darkner who has actually been shown to travel between separate dark worlds. And it seems pretty likely that he's going to appear in the upcoming Chapter 3 dark world as well, given some of the teases and previews we've seen. And, yes, the darkners know each other, which could absolutely imply that all darkners can just travel freely between all dark worlds in the same way that Ralsei is able to. But . . . the Chapter 2 dark world has only been opened for less than a day by the time Kris and Susie get to it. Without getting into Knight discourse, we know that the computer lab fountain wasn't opened in Chapter 1, because if you check the computer lab in Chapter 1, it just says that there's a dog inside working (presumably the annoying dog AKA Toby), without mentioning any kind of fountain or even anything particularly strange in the room. So, without getting into who might have created the fountain, we know that it must have been made at some point after the ending of Chapter 1 but before Kris and Susie go to the library in Chapter 2. My point is that if the dark fountain in Chapter 2 were really opened for less than a day, then how would the characters from the card kingdom know the characters from the cyber world? Queen implies very strongly that the dark world was "created" as a direct result of the fountain being opened. You could possibly interpret this as meaning that the dark worlds had already existed independent of any kind of fountain (and that maybe the fountains just serve as gateways from the pre-existing dark worlds to the light world), but why does she and other characters talk about it as though the fountain itself is what caused the dark worlds to exist in the first place? If it were really just a portal or something, then why doesn't anyone just, like, say that directly? Is it meant to be some sort of secret that the dark fountains are just glorified doors between the dark worlds and the light world? And if they are just pathways between the dark world and the light, then why don't we just show up directly at the fountains when we enter the dark worlds? Why do we wind up like 100 miles away from the fountains if the fountains are the portals between the light world and the dark? I think the reason why this element of the narrative is so often overlooked in theories and discussions like this is because it just . . . doesn't make much sense when you think about it like this. Or at least I haven't found an explanation that really makes much sense to me. The closest explanation that kind of makes sense is "Last Thursdayism," which is the belief that the dark worlds were created entirely by opening the fountains, and that when the fountains are opened, all of the darkners get implanted with elaborate false memories that make them think that they've been alive for much longer than they really have. To be clear, this is a real-world philosophical concept that isn't limited to Deltarune, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true, whether in the real world or in Deltarune. Even if it is true, it doesn't explain how the characters from Chapter 1 dark world could possibly know about the characters from Chapter 2, since how would they be implanted with false memories of a world/characters who don't even physically exist yet, since the Chapter 2 dark fountain hasn't been opened? I don't really believe in this interpretation, but I legitimately can't think of any other interpretations that can truly explain all of the discrepancies. I know that there is a lot to suggest that the dark worlds exist independently of the dark fountains, since many darkners reference events that seem to take place before the creation of a dark fountain. But there's also a lot to suggest that the dark fountains are what create the dark worlds in the first place, and I feel like you can't really dismiss that if you want to figure out what the true nature of the dark worlds even is. This is a very glaring contradiction within the narrative of Deltarune so far, and I don't think we'll see a satisfying answer to most of these questions until we just get more chapters. So at this point, I don't think you can really use "the darkners all know each other" as hard evidence of anything, because while it is a fact that they do know each other, it raises so many questions about how and why they could possibly know each other that it bogs down any discussion with all of these seemingly contradictory points of evidence. Anyway, cool video. I've yet to watch part 2 but I will be interested to see it. I guess I am a "Jaru fan," so I don't fully agree with everything you've laid out (even beyond what I said in this comment), but I understand most of your points and I can respect it.
I have a theory that I just made up with very little evidence to support it: The Dark Worlds are all one world that's just an alternate version to the Light World, kinda like the regular world and the upside-down in Stranger Things. These Dark Worlds can have alternate versions of the objects in the Light World brought to life as Darkners if they're not already being used for something in the light world, such as Susie's chalk. I almost forgot to add, the fountains create "portals" or "gateways" into the sections of the Dark World.
I actually think this theory is alright! For evidence, the fact that the darkners from other worlds know each other is a pretty big point that could support the idea it's all one world until a fountain is made. And it being a parallel to the light world makes sense as the physical location of Castletown and Card Kingdom in relation to each other is the same as the closet's location in relation to the unused classroom, with one door seperating them.
LITERALLY what i was thinking. Ever since i saw Jaru's theory of Ralsei, i've been bugged about it a lot. I just didn't know how to explain it. Thanks for saying what i wanted to for so long
Also Jaru isn’t saying that Ralsei and flowey are created by the same process, just that they are narrative parallels. So if flowey is evil dead Asriel, couldn’t Ralsei be good dead asriel? That makes sense narratively, especially with all the other similar yet opposite events within deltarune such as toriel getting alphys her job as opposed to asgore. As well as direct parallels, asgore and toriel getting divorced, etc. every recurring character in deltarune has narrative parallels to their character in undertale. This is the argument for flowey and Ralsei, not the determination process itself.
Hey just wanted to comment because I realized I really wasn't clear enough about the point of repeating stuff. Repeating stuff is fine, it makes sense in videos as long as Jaru's. The issue for me is how long he takes to recap his videos. He can go on for 5 minutes at a time which grinds the pacing of the video to a halt. Ultimately, I'm ok with recaps so long as they keep the pacing of the video intact.
I have no problem with Jaru, really I don't. Making theories that go in unexpected directions is really cool! However. I will always think of Jaru as the deltarune theory Joker. Great content with interesting ideas, I just don't know where he comes up with it.
around the 16 min mark as another person said the japanese version literally says “that person they’re with, they kinda look like" which asriel and ralsei do look alike and i see no other people looking like him
Except this video is also blatantly wrong or misconstruing obvious information. Perhaps it's time to form your own thoughts instead of taking theory videos as gospel and feeling slighted by them.
@@ceriisu I don't take it that personally really it was a bit harsh earlier I was kinda miffed because this video has an air of knowing better when there's clearly wrong points. At the end of the day theories are theories even hard doesn't take them that seriously and knows they're outlandish so I find wanting him to be called out or making a video like this so unnecessary
@@anonymoususer9197 idk i think if someone is putting blatant false information in their theories and spreading some iffy ideas about trauma/mental illness thats worth criticizing at the very least, part 2 brings up much more valid points than part 1 imo jaru insists not to treat his theories as fanfiction, so i think it's fair to analyze them as though they were something that would actually happen ingame :3
Hm, fair and valid points and opinions, I have never really been sold by his Ralsei Theory either, while it is a pretty interesting idea though. I gotta say, so far you’ve done pretty well, will look forward to see Part 2. Anyway, i think it’s worth mentioning, in case it hasn’t been mentioned already, that according to him, when he makes a Theory, he usually considers Two Things (if i remember correctly) first and foremost, Weather or not it makes sense for the Narrative or even a Compelling Narrative for that matter and weather or not it makes sense for the person behind the Story to do it, In other words, Jaru’s Theories is less about evidence and more about what makes a (in his opinion) good, interesting and compelling Story. So, about the Undertale Favoritism, while it might have something to do with it at least partly, I think the reason why he focused on Undertale so much, is probably also due to it being another official Game that Toby has made, So, he’s thinking that Deltarune might fall under a similar Style to how Toby writes Stories, at least in his point of view.
The spade king doesn’t know about the whole prophecy or he wouldn’t trigger the roaring. Cause that would just turn him to stone. Him knowing about a version of the prophecy that doesn’t freeze him as a statue for eternity is plausible though. But similar to queen he doesn’t know the prophecy as told by ralsei
The things they said about incest are, with all due respect, completely backwards. Occasionally blushing doesn't always imply a crush, it could just be nervousness from how he presumably has never been close to anyone ever. Hugging doesn't always have to be romantic. I'd honestly say it's the other way around, Kris X Ralsei is a cursed ship BECAUSE of the similarities in name alone(they are right in pointing out the lack of a visual similarities though). Ralsei is(presumably) very young, much younger than Kris, meaning even if we ignore that their names are anagrams Kris X Ralsei is already a cursed ship.
They're similar on a superficial level, thats It.... Just like every goat looking monster we have seen There maybe a reason for this representation apart from meta context, and they both adress this. And Asriel has no horns
I hate the fact that the internet and overzealous fandoms have created a situation where content creators feel the need to preview every ad rem critique with "this is not a hate video".
The "darkners not being objects" 'point' had me doing a triple take cause i was agreeing with most stuff. Just gave me whiplash, cause darkners as of ch2 at least are absolutely confirmed to be "objects-and-" When you carry these objects with you to the playertown for them to come back to life, as well as taking lancer and rouxls with you to the light world and them reverting to the jack of spades and the rules card. O.O
How do you explain the fact that, even when you bring an object to the closet, the darkner doesn't accompany you if they weren't recruited? I'm not talking about snowgrave where they're dead, I'm talking about a regular battle where they flee and you can no longer recruit them. Even if you bring their item to the closet, they don't show up. How do you explain that? And furthermore, how do you explain the darkners knowing each other? Queen and King, Spamton and Tenna, Tasque Manager and Jevil, and so on. If they were just objects, and not people outside of the influence of the light world, how would they even be able to form familal bonds or interact with one another? There has to be SOME way for them to be alive outside of the opening of a fountain, otherwise the entire setup of the game makes no sense.
@@kookiautumn1710 i will be clear here, i am just confused on the outward expression of "absolutely not! no way at all" when darkners themselves tell us as such through ch1 and up to the beginning of ch2- im not trying to be hostile if i come across as such im just confused to the "matter-of-fact-ness" of the "they are not objects". The darkners tell us in the game of lightners being all akin to creators of the darkners, those giving them purpose- so we know they have a history of being given sentience and purpose by lightners, again at least the ch1 darkners that are literal toys. An example being quoted directly from Seam: "Long ago, the Darkners lived in harmony with the Lightners. They were like Gods to us. Our protectors. Our creators. Those who gave us purpose... Then, one day we were all locked away in this prison... And the Lightners never returned. Embittered, the King took up arms, and aims to take revenge upon the Lightners that left us behind. 'Course, even among his troops, some still distantly hope the Lightners will return..." This implying EITHER fountains were created to play with the darkners somehow long ago as well, which initially gave them sentience OR just like in toy story, the toys just... Always were sentient to an extent after creation. And... I dont know if we can expect a full explanation on that because as far as what we have right now, its just as much information as we were given original toy story, as they gave no reason for the toys being alive/sentient, just that they were. and THEY certainly built bonds with the other toys. it still made sense in a fun narrative. and sure, we have very little information on that "history" including how darkners from different fountains know each other, like how they knew queen/others... Nearly none other than yes that exact information that they "share" a history to an extent. Could be explained as simply as something like the card deck being brought once and awhile to the librarby to play [after gaining sentience] or something much more complicated that gets explained to us later. Regardless of when, who or "how" the darkners at one point were "objects-and" (im trying to be very careful and specific by using that "and" because YES, there are darkners from ch2 and likely forward that are not "physical" objects within the light world.) For losing recruits and "regardless of bringing their objects back they don't show up" that STILL only happens in ch2 regardless of bully or snowgrave route- and compared to the ch1 darkners, we dont actually see what we pick up when the game says "you gathered up everything" but noticably have no giant ball of junk to carry around. There are a few obvious actual ones like Maus- being literal computer mice, but when all the others are based on computer programs and popup ads, viruses, etc- it could be as simple as we grabbed a laptop, mice, and an extension cable or two. we know we grab "something" for them to come with us. if we dont recruit anything, its most likely the "everything" is just what we could recruit in whatever choices we make. Its as possible as all the programs we met coming from but ONE laptop or one library computer and any programs we didnt recruit just refuse to join us in playertown after the computer is brought in. again since we don't get to see it, we don't have an expressly given explanation for THOSE darkners yet, but either we get it in time, or we dont and thats ok. It doesn't rule out that darkner=toys/other lightner creations because we are explicitly shown and told that all of the darkners wee meet in chapter 1 (... of course big question marks on ralsei wooOoo) and at least a few of the darkners from chapter 2 are all toys or otherwise objects given sentience at one point in deltarunes history. They seem to have never "lost" their sentience regardless of any fountains being closed after their original abandonment within the light world (or, even within the dark world still based on that seam quote) by other lightners, back in the day. one way or the other, if we want to be told exACTLY how things work, for these other darkners, we are gonna have to wait for toby to tell us. Or until he doesn't and keep coming up with things ourselves. but, my disagreement on how "matter-of-fact" and aggressive bringing up "NO, DARKNERS AREN'T OBJECTS" was, stands based on the existing in-game presented evidence, as far as the chapter one darkners go, of course. otherwise all the others are still based on lightner creations, but how or when those gained sentience and interacted with each other, we may never have canon answers, even me suggesting the "laptop" was just an idea to try to fill in gaps for the programs. Hope this explains why i was so taken aback by the aggressive insistence on the (AT LEAST half-false) statement being fact..
@@DragonflyFox that seems to be the general consensus about Darkness, i just don't understand, yeah, hypotetically the Card deck could have been brought to the library, but How does a spam ad know possibily something related to an television, or how would he Interact with a Jevil Card?, HECK Toby even implied that they are DIVORCED,a spam bot and a Jevil Card, there has to be more than they're objects and their story happens because of Lightners, because otherwise darkners that are concepts instead of objects would not be able to Interact with the rest of darkners
honestly it doesn't really matter to me whether Jaru's theories are wrong or if his arguments are bad. maybe thats a problem, but i've never been one to value a theory based on its likelihood. i dont even believe my personal original theories. I don't think that's where the value is from either. Like, imagine if somebody is making a painting, but its only half-done. i can speculate about what the other half is supposed to be, and fill in the rest of the painting, but there are some things i won't be able to predict no matter what, and thats fine. Just because my painting was different from the original artist's doesn't mean that i didn't just make a piece of art. I really hate that people like Jaru and MatPat get so much flack for their ideas, because even though they are absurd and nearly impossible, they are still really fun! and that's all that matters. also i really like that he repeats himself and explores absurd ideas, even if you don't, some people do, and most importantly he does, he's said before that he gets really disheartened when people critizise his video structure, and i really wish people would just leave him alone about it. I'm sorry if you took that the wrong way btw, I'm not mad at you, i just wish you would critique the art rather than the artist
I’m not a fan of jaru, but i think it’s kind of weird to say Asriel and Ralsei don’t act similar by comparing Ralsei at the beginning of his character arc to Asriel at the end of his character arc. From what we hear from the recordings in the true lab, Asriel was willing to help their sibling kill them selves to free all monsters and only started having doubts at the last second. Asriel sounds like kind of a pushover, which, after the plan fails because he’s a good person, is where he gets the idea of “kill of be killed” into his head, even if it takes a while for him to accept it. That and at the point we meet Asriel as Flowey, he’s been “alive” for an unknowable amount of time(partially due to not knowing how many souls were used to revive him and the resets he’s done). Ralsei by comparison couldn’t have existed for very long, at least in the way he is now, because nobody discovers the closet dark world before Kris and Susie, so he is probably not even a day old when we meet him. I know why you pointed out their differences, and i agree with you saying that just because they look and act sort of similar doesn’t mean their the same guy, i just think that it’s a bit weird to compare them at the points their at now when we don’t have the end for Ralsei yet. Then again Jaru said that deltarune is telling the exact same story as undertale, so it’s not like your the only one that’s making that mistake(hell, that mistake is pretty much the main building block of jaru’s video). Sorry for the essay.
I don't think you're approaching this from the right angle. You're comparing asriel from when he first became flowey to ralsei at the start of the game, while kooki and I are comparing flowey from the start of the game to ralsei from the start of the game. You have no idea what ralsei's arc was before the games story, so I feel like this is not a relevant comparison
Considering that, during the deltacast, Jaru described himself as [I'm paraphrasing this] 'A fanfiction author disguised as a theorist' He'll probably agree with you on anything you can cite, because he doesn't really put much stock in all his predictions coming true, he's mostly posting daydreams about deltarune for his fans to enjoy.
5:58 Note: Humans are directly stated in Undertale's opening to have sealed the monsters underground using a magic spell. It is only in monster historical plaques that humans are stated to be incapable of using magic, these may be biased in a manner that the opening narration is not.
After the Deltacast, he went out of his way to say that he doesn't like being called a fan fic writer. I don't like the implication from the way he phrased it, but I'm sure he was getting the same joke about it repeated over and over. What I really didn't like was when he said "I'd rather you call me racial slurs than a fanfic writer."
@@CalamitasCalliope Based on that, I think Jaru has either a severe misconception about what fanfiction is or no idea that fanfiction can be really great.
Theory time When it comes to chapter 1 of Deltarune, Kris and Susie enter the dark fountain of the closet. This dark fountain is said to operate differently from other dark fountains by Ralsei since it is composed of pure darkness. As such the only denizen of the fountain that we know of, being Ralsei, operated differently than other darkners, which we see since Ralsei does not turn to stone in chapter 1 nor chapter 2. When we need to get to the abandoned classroom in chapter 1 where the dark fountain was opened, we take the big door. This allows us to move from one space to another without passing through the light world. It also allowed Lancer to pass through as well. If that logic is correct, then could Ralsei have passed though the big door to head to the computer lab? Assuming that Ralsei is telling the truth when he said he sensed a dark fountain when the party regroups in the cyber world, then the dark fountain was opened up sometime after we had left castletown in the beggining of chapter 2 TLDR: Big door in castle town lets lighteners and darkners move through opened dark worlds without passing through the light world. When chapter 3 begins, Ralsei will take big door to enter the Dreemur household dark fountain.
About how ralsei gets from one dark world to another, we see this happen on screen. Like the weird closet area going into castle town and never seen again Or that giant golden door gets him and kris from castle town to card kingdom. Ralsei even says that the card kingdom fountain "appeared on the horizon" So the dark worlds probably have some kind of physical area between them, or at least castle town has some kind of connection with other dark worlds
The problem with Jaru is that he's a fanfic writer who calls himself a theorist (probably because making fanfic for most things gets you bullied online, or at least used to, and he doesn't wanna deal with that, but that's a baseless assumption) If he just said "yeah so this is my fanfic" I'd have no problem with him, but instead he insists on spreading false information trying to make his ideas seem reasonable. Sometimes he hits gold, like his Gerson Boom Knight fic, but most of the time it's inane bullshit that falls apart if you think for a minute
30:58 -- Jaru: "They're both clearly hiding something from the player!" Salt: "This's by far one of the weakest points he could have made. Every character is hiding something from the player, because no one just spills all their secrets the second you meet them." True! This isn't a 2009 movie about lying or anything, it's more realitous (not a real word but it gets the point across) than subjective.
I'm kinda eh on this. It feels a bit mean spirited honestly. I don't even agree with theory but some of these are just wrong. Completely misunderstanding how darkners work and that they have history with specific people using them in the light world and having been moved around before the creations of the fountains and such. 5, 6, and 7 are actually correct tho, but only 6 does any damage to his theory. He made one specific post with evidence in regards to something about Ralsei on Twitter which seems to imply he doesn't believe in point 7 anymore. 9 I don't really have anything to say about. It doesn't debunk anything but the it could go either way with this. Some of 10 is fine.
15:27 I mean.. they are not even the same species. It obviously does not make things any better, but you brought it up. But I gotta say, in my playthrough I personally didn't interpret anything beyond a desire for a platonic friendship from Ralsei. Poor guy have been alone for a very long time and are not used to having friends around. You can tell by the manual he made and the talks about prophecies that we are a big deal to him and he does not want to screw it up.
Ralsei is absolutely lonely and starved of any real social acceptance, but... contrast the way he talks about Susie and the way he talks about Kris, then look at how Noelle talks about both, they act as really good parallels to each other. Ralsei is shocked by Susie, sometimes antagonistic towards her, doesn't really understand her, but learns to accept her for who she is, and realises she's a good friend even if she isn't exactly like him, or like what he thought she should be. On the other hand, Ralsei is nearly always in awe of Kris, complimenting them and being flustered by any gesture they make towards him. Kris can say anything, and Ralsei will obediantly follow, even if it goes against his own morals and wants (unlike with Susie, who he actively calls out on being a bad hero in chapter 1). Similarly, Noelle is shocked by Kris, sometimes antagonistic towards them and doesn't really understand them, even if they grew up together, and during the course of chapter 2 learns to appreciate them as the kind of friend they are, even if they aren't the type of friend she needs. While, with Susie, she's a constant flustered mess around her, complimenting her and going out of her way to be near her, any gesture Susie makes at Noelle makes her squeal in one way or another. Because of Susie, Noelle is able to go against what she's been taught and stand up for herself, even if it otherwise goes against how she normally acts. There's a clear distinction in romantic and platonic subtext between the kids, imo.
Jaru fan here! I LOVE listening to different perspectives. After watching this, Ralsei does seem to be a darkner- not a combination of lighter and darkner or something else. A sub-category of darkner yes, but still a darkner nonetheless. Lovely video! 👍🏽
This is a pretty good video! Though I do have some thoughts about determination in deltarune, even though determination has only been mentioned to us yet as the way a lightner can create a dark fountain, I don't think it automatically means that the determination in undertale and deltarune work entirely differently, just that dark fountain creation is just another facet of what determination can do and that is what deltarune's story is mainly going to be focusing on
Counter arguments for points 2 and 3: Jevil and spamton know about each other and can foreshadow future chapters because something (shadow crystals, Gaster, whatever the fuck made them go insane) told them about future events. Task manager probably sensed chaotic energy in the Jevil tail and doesn't specifically know Jevil. Though Lancer being Kings son doesn't technically make sense if darkners are objects, it could just be something Toby didn't care about. It's possible that the memories darkners have of the dark world existing before the fountains were merely fabricated upon the fountains creation. Perhaps the laptop was brought into the classroom at one point him and that's why some CH1 darkners know about Queen? I don't fully know but that's the best guess I can take. For the idea that not all objects turn into people, there could be parts of both dark worlds that we don't see, and what controls whether they turn into people or just different objects might have something to do with the complexity of the object, you may not call a card very complex but the design on it could be complex. A possible thing you may try to the counter argue is why only the recruited CH2 darkners join castle town, I don't fully have an answer for that, it is possible, though unlikely, that Kris just doesn't take them for whatever reason but it's much more likely that the darkners end up in a different part of castle town. With all of the points mentioned above, I believe I've given sufficient explanations for why the darkners are objects brought to life and why some darkners know each other from other dark worlds meaning that travel from one dark world to another may not be possible for darkners. All of the other points I agree with, especially that the idea that they look similar is false. When I first watched Jarus theory video over a year ago I was still very gullible at the time and still knew that it was bullshit. Though I would still would call myself a Jaru fan, my thoughts have been getting progressive more neutral toward him as time goes on(his hyperlink blocked video was particularly bad) and this video did make me See more flaws in him, but it didn't fully convince me because of the two points I rebutteld. I have counter arguments on part two however I generally agree with that one more.
Love how you say that this video was not made to make fun of Jaru then you high pitch his voice seconds later LMAO I'd rather perish than watch all of this
Yo, as someone who genuinely does not like Jaru's videos (or honestly Jaru as a person after his blatant ableism in a LOT of his videos AND the entire fucking The Greatest Living Show analysis but that's just, another thing entirely) and actually bond over some of my friends over how much we dislike his videos and I genuinely LOVE that there is someone who thinks the same as us about the quality of his theories and his videos. There were multiple times throughout the two parts of these videos where we paused to rant about something and then upon continuing the video you two brought up the EXACT same point. Thanks a lot for this video.
@@lulnara5128 Jaru makes a lot of false claims about mental health. In very this theory he treats trauma as if it inherently makes people who experience it 'evil'. I don't think it's rooted in malice as much as just ignorance, but it's still really problematic.
30:04 after all, if blast damage and fire damage are considered different things in games like TF2, then they can be considered different things in Undertale and Deltarune.
Speaking as a long-time Jaru theory hater (nothing against the guy I just think his theories are bad), The Asriel section kind of sucks here. It is blatantly obvious that Ralsei exists to draw connections to Asriel. Not even worth entertaining otherwise. To ignore this connection requires you to literally abandon common sense. His name is an anagram, that's literally all you need to know, but on top of that he's a boss monster. He doesn't look literally IDENTICAL to Asriel because, like Kris to Frisk/Chara, he's older then Asriel was relatively, which consequently would result in in him being taller, and having his horns start to grow in. (Note that Kris specifically asked their parents when there's were going to start growing in, implying that when they and Asriel were younger, Asriel's horns hadnt yet, and grew in later with age, like an actual goat.) It would be straight up irresponsible storytelling for Toby to make this connection and then not follow through on it. He would be superfluouizing his own narrative. This isn't a hallucination, it's bright as day and obvious. That does NOT necessarily mean that he IS Asriel or even that he has some literal connection to him, but saying "they look and act nothing alike" is PROFOUNDLY ignorant. It's also just straight up incorrect to proclaim that Asriel "chose" pacifism at the end of the game and wasn't naturally like that. He absolutely was, as he explicitly states in his final monologue at the flower bed that when he and Chara were at the village, Chara wanted to kill the humans but he resisted because he didn't want to hurt anyone. Asriel has ALWAYS been a pacifist, Flowey was merely a corruption of that base born out of dissociation pessimism and cynicism from reset after reset. Asriel as presented at the end of Undertale does not act *identically* to Ralsei, but he does act very comparably, and he barely had any screen time anyway so it's not like there's that much to go off of. Bottom line though, they are both pacifistic soft spoken pushovers that let other people walk all over them because they're dependent on their approval and hapiness. They don't even need to act identically though because no one with any half a brain is suggesting that Ralsei is *"literally"* Asriel anyway, but rather a reflection of him in some way. Be at the Darkner manifestation of the headband, the abstract memories Kris has of him, "piles of Asriel's dust" I guess 💀. You don't "accidentally" make a character look like another one, *and also* make their name an anagram, *and also* make them behave similarly, *and also* have multiple characters comment on how they look familiar, *and also* give Kris a tensious relationship with them emulating the strained relationship they have with their brother. The acknowledgment the romantic tension between Ralsei and Kris gets icky when you entertain this idea is SO CLOSE to getting the point but not quite. You have correctly identified that this is pretty disturbing, but have failed to identify why that fact precludes it from being intentional. Undertale was already a very disturbing game at times. You literally commit mass genocide, down to attempted murder of innocent children. Deltarune, on a meta level, is a thematically about the relationship a protagonist and the player controlling them. Simply acknowledging that this is potentially disturbing isn't enough to discount it. (Side note: the point about Noelle's "it kind of looks like..." Is incorrect. In the Japanese version the line translates more accurately to "his appearance is like". She's explicitly talking about Ralsei's appearance, not the situation. Note that the JP translation is extremely heavily overviewed by Toby, and that he is fluent in Japanese. ) I also disagree with the semantics on darkness in relation to their objects, and you failed to mention the most damning evidence of Spade King knowing about the prophecy, that being that if you choose not to listen to it, Lancer directly references it, asking if you recognize him as "the tear-shaped kid from the prophecy" (paraphrased) but aside from those few things this is a good video overall. Jaru theories are often rampant with confirmation bias. He dismisses suggestions on a whim, works backwards from his conclusions, and builds theories on his own theory in a Google Translate style system that leads to him to lose progressively more and more of the plot every video..
this is. a super minor nitpick about a joke however. noelle Is in undertale. not in game (though that’s debatable- whever the dog shrine is sans has dialogue about a snow storm that people connect to noelle), but in the alarm clock dialogue. so does rudy, though he dead, and susie Might. suzy susie, you know the whole thing. also i dont know how much of ralsei is implied to be a love interest to kris? this is honestly just a me thing but this could be a hierarchy thing (questioning whether ralsei likes kris or Us the player, and it being a bit of a parallel to noelle in the snowgrave route. also ralsei could just be weird about it and its completely platonic- blushing is both used for crushes but also awkwardness and embarrassment, ralsei actually has a bit of a tier system, like he doesnt consider him and lancer to be friends while its the opposite for lancer, and susie being tied to the prophecy seems to be important to him. like his reactions to kris are more visible yes, but he still interacts with susie, arguably more in certain bits. acid tunnel of love i dont have anything for sorry this is. incoherent but basically it just doesnt seem like a lot of evidence? jumping the gun. plus player vs kris controversy) i was going to say something about the darkners not being objects but i dont have anything for that, but yeag. dont. take this super seriously
I was hyped to see this video, making a detailed rebuttal of Jaru's theory. And a lot was technically accomplished, I have to praise that, but: - you put so much behind a couple of refutations that aren't nearly as solid as you made them out to be, to say the least, - seemingly misunderstand and choose to disregard his approach to crafting theories, that is narrative parralels between a game and its spiritual successor with something as strange as the Mario and that one Zelda NPC example (although things like the fire interruption are indeed reaching as evidence), - and finally, being overall extremely nit-picky and mean-spirited; made it quite difficult to watch. Thank you and good day.
@22:35 I've always thought that Ralsei is idealized version of Kris if he had born like his brother Asriel. (Ralsei having similar colored horns as Kris's headband and being mostly the missing the crayola color) Like Kris is the Ego, Ralsei being the Superego and the player being the Id. Personally I believe that Ralsei's "love" scenes is mostly player using Ralsei to show to self love himself in platonic way during a depression. Like I saw them as "this is like Kris accepting his past and platonicly self-loving himself what he is." So in a way I believe that if Id (The player) is left without superego (Ralsei) weird things starts to happen in the fantasy dark world. Kris being too reliant on others and doing as others tell him.
@19:37-.-I don't see a problem with this because these are potential alternatives people could bring up anyway, and explaining why these explanations are not more likely than the explanation he lands on is useful. Plus, it shows he put a lot of thought into the theory, and I like hearing other people work through ideas.
I dont mind jaru...but i found his way of doing theories boring, i mainly watch half breed chaos cause they put a decent amount of personal to their content. Hell i had double speed those jaru bits cause they dragged on so much
This is so deliciously cathartic. I DESPISE theories that are infested with logical fallacies and assuming the conclusion, and seeing someone else exuding the same frustration I have at its very existence while also disassembling it with a precision that I could only dream of is *exquisite.*
16:09 i actually think this moment is kinda supposed to be sorta weird, when you take into account that ralsei, while not looking a LOT like asriel, looks sorta like a boss monster kris age, which would both to kris and very obviously to the many players (see: the hundreds if not thousands of people who first saw unhatted ralsei and thought "ASRIEL??????????" even if later realizing "oh not asriel", it still makes you feel weird, it's supposed to, because it very likely makes KRIS feel weird, imo it adds to the "player vs kris" aspect when you can try to force the game in a romantic direction with a character that looks sorta like asriel, even if the resemblance isn't any more than the other boss monsters But thats just my interpretation, so take it with many many grains of salt
ALSO. while i do get where your coming from about undertale favoritism (applying rules to a different media where those rules are Very Different). keep in mind undertale is still very connected to deltarune and toby actively plays on our knowledge of undertale and makes direct references to it (the jukebox and bake sales comment the narrator makes, as well as literally never mentioning determination in save points likely to hammer in its Different here. also the themes of creepypastas in both games, first the genocide route and then the snowgrave route (being more obscure this time, as the genocide route was likely to be a secret route?)). like yes theyre different and have different stories, however theyre still related. drawing on information from undertale to deltarune isnt necessarily bad, just in this context its misinformed. especially in ejecting dt with objects gives them the will to live- it only worked with flowey and asriels dust then, just a plain object wouldnt work even in undertale and Didnt, as alphys tried.
Yeah, I do agree that the games are connected. I'm a little harder on the idea since I've gotten so burned out on people trying to make them way more connected then I think they are, but it's undeniable that they aren't completely separate. For me, I require someone to prove why the connection they are making is reasonable before they use it as evidence. Like with determination, if someone showed me evidence that it actually worked the same in both games, I'd be a lot more open to the idea.
yeah thats fair!! theyre two separate stories for a reason, + considering the amount of differing rules in deltarune as well (no monster magic? + the fact dark worlds even seemingly. Exist) for there to be no evidence for a rule being the same… its like youre shooting yourself in the foot. youd have to be Dead Certain they work the same when deltarune and undertale just kind of. dont on a general level
I’m wondering if the fact this is recorded in a literal echo chamber is some kind of creative choice or made because it was the only option. It could be either cause it doesn’t sound bad, just very unique.
On Point 2: I actually do think that Determination works in exactly the same way in Undertale and Deltarune. -Monsters DO have Determination, albeit very little. Boss Monsters' SOULs persist briefly after death before shattering, and Undyne resists her own death and becomes the Undying in the No Mercy route. She also melts like the Amalgamates when you kill her, proving she has Determination. -Queen does not say that all Lightners have equal levels of Determination, in fact just the opposite. She says all Lightners "Possess" it, and that one can only make a Dark Fountain if they are "Determined Enough." So Lightners have varying levels of Determination in both Undertale and Deltarune. -High levels of Determination is stated to grant the ability to change fate by SAVING, and SAVING is something we can do in Deltarune. An example of the game acknowledging the ability is when using the Castle Town SAVE Point after sealing the Chapter 2 Dark Fountain; the game says that if you SAVE, you can never go back to the Cyber World, so the ability to turn back time to change outcomes (undoubtedly by Determination) is diegetic to both games. -W.D. Gaster's Entry 17 describes Gaster's creation of a Dark Fountain while experimenting with Determination, so making Fountains is a property of Determination in Undertale and Deltarune.
I commented on one of his videos a while back saying he was wrong thinking Flowey and Asriel aren't the same person (they are), he replied to me by completely mis-quoting Asriel in TP then ignored me when I pointed out that he was wrong. :/
Omg I cracked the code. THIS WHOLE THING OF RALSEI BEING ASREIL IS JUST LIKE CHARA BEING AN EVIL MURDER PSYCHOPATH! I’ve connected the dots it’s the same fucking phenomenon I swear to god
Hey nice video! I have some stuff to comment on though. Mainly on the existence of darkners as objects, personally I’ve always believed in darkners being a combination of the object and the will of the fountain/of the knight, ((I think connotations theory is the name of the video that goes into detail on that)), and I believe the idea that darkners have knowledge of eachother and histories can be explained by their light world counterparts interacting ((Ex. The laptop being brought to the school)) or their irl relations ((Ex. Solitaire being commonly played on computers, which queen is)) Although this doesn’t explain how they have knowledge of future dark worlds, I feel like there are differing answers to that ((all dark worlds being intrinsically connected, time loop theory, etc)) Additionally in reference to Noelle’s dialogue, I feel that both “it looks like they’re dating” and “it looks like asriel/Toriel” or something, are both equally valid assumptions, although Noelle ignoring Ralsei later on can feed into the idea that he isn’t Asriel, because at a second glance she was like “oh that’s not him”. I think it’s better to provide these as reasonable or more likely alternatives than to flat out day that these debunk an idea, because something like that can be open to interpretation Besides those minor nitpicks, I think that this is a great debunk! As a fan of a lot of Jaru’s ideas you have thoroughly convinced me that Ralsei most likely isn’t a dustner, as well as the inconsistencies present in several of his videos. However I do have some notes on the approach? I feel like the tone of the video could lead to some people clicking off ‘thinking’ it’s a hate video because of the way debunking is approached. Gonna stress that practically every point made is extremely valid against the video, but being vitriolic out the gate with calling the theory bullshit ((albeit funny also pls don’t hurt me I love universal mother theory)), can lead people to devalue valid points you make later on because in some Jaru fan’s heads you’d already be branded as a hater and at the very least to an average viewer it can leave a sour taste in their mouth with the idea that you aren’t tackling the point rationally, regardless of if you are or not. Although that’s moreso an issue with fandom and creator worship as a whole than with this video specifically. Overall though, I really liked the video! You managed to change my mind and give me some tips on theorizing as a theorizer myself! Looking forward to the next part
3:43 asriel is to me not a very surprising inclusion for a possibility; as, independently of jaru's theory, it's a popular idea that ralsei and asriel are connected in some way, and thus worth analysing in depth, despite being a sub-category of another analysed option. 7:01 Yes, there are a lot of ununswered questions about the nature of darkeners and their connections to other darkners. But I think rejecting "darkeners are objects" entirely is a bit premature; as there are theories can explain these things. For example, one theory is that darkeners gain false memories of a retroactive history upon fountain creation; and that things like jevil mentioning queen are "loose ends" that don't have well defined meaning at the time but that future fountains retroactively add on to the history of. The only alternative to "darkeners are objects" i can think of is something like "dark worlds have existed for a long time and fountains are a connection between worlds". but that also has ununswered questions like why and how exactly are darkners connected to objects (have appearance and personality traits based on them, you can move darkners around by moving their lw objects), have those connections existed as long as the object has or only as long as the fountain has, why does the card kingdom dark world actually cease to exists when the fountain is closed when it should have existed before the fountain was open, etc. Rejecting fully one popular idea due to ununswered questions while accepting another seems inconsistent. 19:33 idk, i think the idea of exploring alternative ideas and counterpoints in a theory has value. if a theory only presents one idea that they beleive and ignores any alternatives then i don't know whether they also thought of those alternatives and decided against them or whether they hadn't considered them at all. 22:42 not sure i really understand the critisism of the idea of summarization? should it have been included first before the context of the discussion being summarized? or that it shouldn't be included at all? 23:57 this seems like an incosequential nitpick to me. the prior analysis f the "darkner" possibility assumes "normal darkner based on whatever rules and traits we can establish as likely belonging to other darkners". analysing the idea of "special darkner that has slightly different rules" doesn't really negate that analysis and has value in analysing separately. its technically a subcategory based on the category names but the prior analysis can just be understood as analysis of a distinct subcategory. 25:26 i agree, it's not a good aproach to theorycrafting to dismiss something just because it doesn't answer all the questions. for example, if somebody completely dismissed the idea that darkners are objects because it didn't answer all the questions... :p
23:11 This is minute 23 of a 35 minute video that IS PART ONE to an even longer 40 minute part two. I think this is just the natural state of Deltarune theory content, my friends.
I haven't finished yet but the Darkners are 100% the objects. Their interactions are likely just the dark world filling in what they experienced as objects. King and Queen met because the laptop was near the card at some point. As for not all objects becoming living beings I'm not sure, but it likely has to do with some info on how the fountain actually creates the world we will find out later. Another addition, King 100% does NOT know about the roaring and all the details of it and claiming he does is just wrong. Why would king be trying to kill himself and all of the darkners. He literally says he wants a world that darkners rule, proving he doesn't know whats actually going to happen. Also I agree that Ralsei isn't actually Asriel, but claiming they have no connections besides surface level is untrue. His name is literally an anagram of Asriel, and the game implies through Noelle that they look similar too.
You have no evidence that the laptop was ever taken to the spare classroom, especially because the laptop is New and the unused classroom is implied to have been abandoned for a long time, most likely since Gerson died. If the laptop DID go to the unused classroom at some point, why wouldn't Lancer know about Queen? And furthermore, how would Spamton know about Tenna? This is purely a thing of opinion, but I think Spade DOES know about the Roaring, even the details (though, even if he didn't know about darkners turning to stone, my point still stands about him knowing about the prophecy, as Jaru is claiming Spade and Queen have NO knowledge of the prophecy). Again, his main motto is essentially "the means justify the end", and if he's willing to hurt his own son in the process of taking down the lightners, I don't see how it's far fetched for him to also value his own life below the annihilation of all lightners. The names being anagrams IS surface level. To bring up a point from the video I made about the topic, implying that anagrams and pun names are iron clad evidence, that'd mean Toriel is the totorial of Deltarune, just because it's in her name. And we DON'T know what Noelle would've said, both in English and in Japanese, her dialogue is too vague to actually concretely make a connection to Asriel specifically. Again, she never brings it up again or even glances at Ralsei after that, it's likely she was just looking at him in relation to Susie specifically. I'm not trying to say there's absolutely no parallels between Ralsei and Asriel, I just think the community is overly focused on Asriel, as Ralsei has just as much in common with Toriel and Asgore as he does Asriel. They're all boss monsters, they all look alike, and they all try to be nice. That's it.
@@kookiautumn1710 1. Lancer doesn't have to know Queen because he's baby. He might not even have been born yet. He might have been too young to remember her. 2. But King DIDN'T plan to hurt his son for the roaring. He said he knew that nothing would happen to Lancer, because he's a bouncy pumpkin. 3. Toriel's name is like that because she's the tutorial of undertale, so of course her name will carry over. Just because she's not the tutorial in deltarune doesn't mean her name isn't a pun
Hey, maybe you don’t agree with Jaru’s statements, after all it is true that he didn’t take some things in consideration or that some details are actually kept instead of others just because of Undertale or to make a point about his theory, it’s a very good and constructive thing to point this out. But criticize him on the way he does his videos IS going too far, you said that it was not hate but ‘just for fun’ and while it is well put in some places like the Deltarune quiz, it crosses the line when you say he is too slow or exploring too many ‘unnecessary’ hypotheses, he structures his videos however he wants and if you don’t like that, either skip the parts you don’t care about, or complain about this to him directly, not through a public video. What I’m saying is that in some parts of your video you’re not making fun out of his work (which is indeed fun for everyone, even him), but you are making fun of him, his way of talking, explaining, narrating, entertaining, and that is not morally okay. Anyway I might have been a bit harsh in my comment but I’m writing all this because I was happy to see a video about why a theory that I like has some holes and therefore would show me why it’s less likely to happen than what Jaru made me think, as I got told in the intro of this video, but instead I could only watch 3/4 of this video because almost half of the criticism is about the person and not his work, and this can hurt, making a video for fun doesn’t make your words painless, so I hope you’ll at least stay true to the last part of your intro and take this criticism into account for the next time you’ll criticize someone’s work, and if you still want to have fun doing it, make it in a way that the person you’re talking about can’t get hurt and instead have fun with you and that the viewers don’t have a negative opinion of anyone and have fun with you too. Your video made me laugh at times, I hope I’ll still do next time, and even more, because I like how you two present things despite everything I said, your videos could be really really cool, that’s why I hope you’ll understand. Have a great day and I wish you the best.
Also I’ve had a bad day xd so I’m sorry to sound mad like that, at least you have my opinion on the moment but don’t take this as a personal attack, maybe I’m being too serious and overreacting lol, sorry for the trouble I wish you the best
Hey no need to apologize, this was a very nice and well formatted comment. I really appreciate that! I understand a lot of what you're saying here, I spent a lot of time trying to make sure I wasn't too harsh, but at the end of the day I find his theories to be very silly, and I can't really get around that. I also understand that critiquing the structure feels mean, but I feel like it's really important to talk about. My goal was to convey the frustration I felt. Maybe I could have done a better job with that, but I do hope that it's something Jaru takes time to improve. Also one last time, don't feel too sorry about posting criticism of my content! This was a very nice comment and I would love if I had 100 more like it.
@@shadowhaxor99 Wow thank you a lot, it feels very good to see that you’re taking it this good, and now I clearly see what you mean about what you were saying and I agree with you, I’m so happy that it turned in a nice discussion, I’m now willing to see the end of the video knowing that you’re conscious about everything we’ve said, you’re a good person, continue to have fun on your future works!
@13:19-.- 1). I don't see how Ralsei is fluffier, they seemed to be about the same level of fluff. This could be art style limitations, but I don't see any reason to assume he's fluffier based on any of the sprites we've gotten so far. 2). You bring up an argument where Ralsei's horns are more relevant in a little bit. So I'll just leave this here to make it easier to know what to point each number is referring to. 3). Glasses aren't a body, but the sprites of Toriel reading always present her wearing glasses, so he could have inherited this from his mother, but in potentially a stronger form, or there eyesights are exactly as good naturally, but Asriel just decides to always wear his. 4). Every single monster that has entered a dark world so far has had an altered color scheme (Is a little bit subtle in the case of Noelle and Berdly, but Noelle is a bit paler and Berdly Is a bit more cyan than true blue), so it could be that Ralsei It's meant to have the color scheme Asriel would have If he entered the dark world. I imagine the reason why it isn't an off-white wouldn't look very good or have the same "it's brighter now" affect the other color schemes tend to have, and so he opted for pink horns and pink shading. (Also, If Toriel fur is shaded with pink or any other color in chapter 3, I reserve the right to say "I told you so!") @13:25-.-Fun Fact: Did you know that Asriel's god of hyper death form Is based on some art Toby made on a whim of what an evil tutorial would look like? And since we don't know when Toby drafted the designs for normal Asriel, it is possible that Toby made Asriel a smaller, gender-bent Toriel. This is all pretty weak evidence, but it's more evidence that what you provided for this claim. Yeah, it's a pretty common trope for kids to be essentially clones of their parents, due to how hard it is to keep a family resemblance while still make you them distinct, I'm pretty sure we haven't seen enough characters with parent-child connections to conclude how much Toby would rely on this trope. We still don't know what to Noelle's mom or Dess looks like, and I'm pretty sure the Snowden inn from Undertale Is the only other non Dreemurr family we get to see (and even then, I forget if they're supposed to be sisters or mother and daughter). And unless there's some obscure dialog from Undertale I'm missing, I'm pretty sure that having hair and bigger horns is a confirmed s#xually-dimorphic trait of male goat/boss-monsters, so I really don't see why Asriel couldn't grow up to have long horns like his dad, but to be bold like his mom. @13:42-.-While he certainly doesn't look like kid Asriel, if instead of using this sprite to represent a character named "Ralsei" Toby instead used it to represent a hypothetical _teenage_ version of Asriel, I would completely buy it and have no problems assuming they were the same character (except for the horns being pink, but I've already explained that in a previous point). @14:35-.-Literally I've gathered from this point is that Flowey goes from being overly aggressive to rejecting aggression when he turns back into Asriel (Which is heavily implied to be completely temporary in Undertale), while Ralsei starts out being pacifistic to a fault but then learns that some aggression might be necessary. It is interesting how one could argue these two arcs are fundamentally contrasting inversions of each other, I failed to see how this disproves the idea that Ralsei Is incredibly similar Asriel. A character is _not_ synonymous with their arc, A character can stop going through an arc one set arc is complete and yet to still exist, A character can go through multiple arcs, even inverted arcs, within one or more stories, A character can go through completely different arcs in different continuities, and yes, two characters can go through completely different, even inverted arcs while still being _fundamentally_ the same in terms of personality, temperament, and disposition, and for sed similarities but sed different arcs to even be entirely intentional on the part of the author. I frankly think it's ironic how you emphasized how "superficial" the visual similarities between the two characters are, but then you use the absolute most superficial possible comparison in order to disprove them acting similarly. I find it further ironic how you accuse people of thinking "character development is a novel concept" and are giving "slap in the face to all of Undertale's overarching story", thus implying that their media illiterate, because they're able to separate a character from their arc, which implies that you yourself or media illiterate. (Sorry if this segment comes off too aggressively, I found your treating of this absolute nothing burger of an argument as definitive proof, and the subsequent insulting of intelligence of everyone who understands how empty this point is to be offensive. I legitimately feel insulted for not being an idiot.) @15:21~16:20-.-Take it for granted that Toby wouldn't put it inc#st in this story (because that is a completely reasonable assumption), this would only be an issue if Kris gets with Ralsei, of which there is no evidence confirming. The amount each character's tea heals a character is clearly meant to be reflective of how much affection they have for said character, while Kris tea heals a significantly high amount to Ralsei, while Ralsei tea heals Kris for slightly less than Noelle tea, Implying that Kris sees Ralsei, _at best_ as a pretty good friend, but certainly not romantic material, and the _extreme_ affection Ralsei feels for Kris is one sided (I'm not going to go to in depth on tea-theory, since there are plenty of people who've done it already, and you probably know what already anyway). And keep in mind that Kris only does any flame flirtatious to Ralsei while under our control, so there's very little way to know if Kris would have done it anyway, let alone whether or not they enjoyed it. And since the game is clearly trying to deconstruct the relation between the player and the protagonist, I don't see any reason why Toby wouldn't put in some moments to come off as wholesome and innocent to those who haven't count on to some of the big twists, only to turn out to be creepy and disturbing in retrospect (Especially using a popular ship that involves a character that people have expressed wanting to date). While Jaru from what I remember clearly thinks Ralsei Is aware of his similarities to Asriel, I still feel that it's worth noting for the general discussion that we don't know how much he is aware of these similarities. It's possible that Ralsei doesn't even know that Asriel exists, or that Kris is Asriel's younger brother, or that Ralsei is aware of how similar he is to Asriel, or how he would feel about said similarities. Though all kinds of directions that could be took in that would result in Ralsei Intentionally pursuing an inc#stu#us or pseudo-inc#stu#us relationship, in at least his own eyes. Especially given how he's already set up as a major enigma, with a lot of subtle weirdness, and a minimum of two confirmed off screen conversation whose contents are unknown. @16:45-.-This is a legitimately good point, I am pointing this out for the sake of politeness. [I am done writing this comment. I am announcing this in square brackets because *twice* I had to comment early to fix an issue where a bunch of text would turn red, and all red text would be deleted from the comment when posted, so I had to put a message in square brackets to let people know it wasn't done yet.]
if darkeners aren't their objects whats with kings whole arc in chapter 1 about being abandoned? they're literally in an unused classroom? king dosent word it as "you abandoned our objects" or anything else, he words it as "you abandoned US" because its supposed to tie into the idea that they are objects or at the very least are represented by objects
I mean like im sure there's some explanation but it feels like an unnecessary distinction to me is all, it feels like separating them from their objects and saying that they have a connection rather than them BEING a more refined characterized version of whatever is made up of is just a tad weird lol. wouldn't suprise me though deltarune has some weird lore
This is a very compelling point, although I just can't get over the spamton tenna connection. The whole Darkner's as objects lore is... well it's a mess. No matter what angle you look at it from there's holes. Hopefully we get some kind of answer in chapter 3/4
@@shadowhaxor99 I mean considering Stanton is also familiar with jevil which he shouldn't be it might just be the shared connection to gaster if tenna also turns out to be a shadow crystal holder. The only other connections people share with other worlds is ralsei and king and queen but considering queen is based on a computer/laptop she could have been in the school at some point.
The darkners WERE abandoned, objects or not. Ralsei's story about the prophecy talks about a time when Lightners and Darkners lived in harmony and coexisted, and that the separation caused an imbalance in the world. Spade is likely talking about that separation, that inequality between the light world and the dark world, especially because the dark world in chapter 1 has so many parallels to the monsters' plight in undertale.
Not only is the absurd echoing genuinely annoying, but I'm getting the feeling these people think that Jaru is intentionally speaking slowly to waste time, which he isn't. Not to mention you don't need to pitch up someone's voice to speed them up. UA-cam has options to speed up videos and they barely change the pitch of the sound. I use that for *any* video that is over an hour long. I once watched a video back in 2022 that was like two minutes long titled "you need to slow down this video in order to watch it" or something like that and in the video he was talking really fastly and claimed that by doing this and forcing you to slow down the video speed the video was getting more watch time(this was obviously a joke as I HIGHLY doubt that's actually how watch time works) which could create the misconception that speeding up videos reduces the amount of money people make from them, but even if that were true it's not like anyone in this video or comment section cares enough about Jaru to make that an ethical concern.
Why are Flowey and Ralsei so similar? They both fill the role of “tutorial character who knows more than they let on (probably so they can still be plot relevant later)” Why do they know about SAVING/LOADING? They are tutorial characters, and Toby decided to make it part of Flowey’s “knows more than they let on” part.
Lol these videos are fun. I do hope this video promotes discussion. 7:10 this is such a strange point to me like this should have been cut darkners are hundred percent objects given life by the darkworld. 16:11 It is the player or the player stand in who does the romancing. (Also puts jaru third entity theory in a weird light). Overall nice video.
Here's a theory, sans is the night and WD gaster is the puppet Master, maybe after the events of deltarune sans teleports him and papyrus to undertale and that's why he has the time travel machine and the photo and why they suddenly just appeared!!! If you think about it, he's the janitor for the school so he could've opened the dark world before Kris and Susie before they got there, and the closet in the library only says that a large person can fit in there, not the there was someone who was actually large🤷
Aight thats silly I know that Jaru is lowkey annoying, but yall didnt had to spread the whole "it's online so it deserves criticism" shpiel by making a whole video on his theories because they're wrong 😭 It's a game, can yall chill or smth? 🥴
[23:30] NITPICK: I don't think Jaru invented the concept of a conclusive paragraph, repeating your points is just part of essay writing. It's still a valid criticism, just not a criticism of Jaru, and more a criticism to... academia.
First: I appreciate what you’re doing and understand why. As a Jaru fan I wanted to see what you had to say and he supports people picking apart his theories for the same reason you argued why you should be able to. I agree. Unfortunately I found it difficult to continue watching as soon as you made the argument that determination in undertale was the opposite of magic and could not exist in one being together without consequence. Monsters clearly have at least a little determination and the distinction is the amount between monsters and humans. The example I have is Undyne, who suffers the same effects as the amalgamates when she needs to use her determination, and it’s extremely unlikely she injected that determination the way Flowey or the amalgamates did. If none of this seems relevant to Deltarune, it does if you believe Deltarune is a parallel universe to Undertale and determination could very possibly work the same way. Watching for a moment longer I hear that the saving loading system uses determination in Deltarune like Undertale, but because it functions differently they can’t be the same? I don’t believe we have any evidence to support the idea that Kris can save and load due to determination, and as far as I remember, Jaru has the same view. I am simply making these statements to offer more perspective, not to cause arguments. This is how I view the games with the information I have, which truthfully includes a majority of Jaru’s content and Undertale. Thank you for your input, but clearly we understand these games very differently, I hope what I have to say has some value to you.
It has to do with how the Darkners have histories and relationships that predate the events of the game, and how certain Darkners know each other from across Dark Worlds. If the dark fountains give objects life and turn them into Darkners, they shouldn't have detailed histories like they do. And if a Dark World ceases to exist once a fountain is closed, there shouldn't be any way for, say, Queen to know the Spade King and vice versa, or for Spamton to know about Mike and Tenna. I saw a great comment a moment ago comparing the Dark Worlds to the Upside-Down from Stranger Things, in that it's a parallel dimension influenced by what happens in the Light World, but the people and objects within it aren't directly tied to it. A dark fountain then allows access from a Dark World to the Light World.
What they meant was that a darkner isn't literally an alive object, like for example a walking fork, but that they exist in their own realm and have a corresponding thing in the light world. It was pretty confusingly formulated of them.
@@Ammiteur9 Yeah to give a bit of context, we wrote this script over a year ago. Back then, I genuinely didn't think this would be a controversial statement. I found out later, but editing the script would either force us to remove massive segments, or add a tangent that would have derailed the video completely just to cover our bases on this singular point. It seems like I'll have to make a video explaining this lol.
Hey Everyone! I know most of you aren't here for Deltarune content, but this is something I've really wanted to make for a long time. I hope you enjoy! Link to part 2 here: ua-cam.com/video/VWxiwH9n0OM/v-deo.html
I love this new Deltarune content😊
16:48 COUNTER POINT
In the Japanese version it translated roughly to “that person they’re with, they kinda look like …”
HALF BREAD CHAOS SAVED THE DAY
WHERES MY MONEY
Yeah.
Fr
Personally I feel like that's still a little too vague to come to a definitive conclusion. I'll rewatch that video though to see if HBC gives any additional context
shadowhaxor still wins because noelle could've wanted to say "looks like toriel"
@@ner6886 I doubt she’d say toriel think about if you were in this situation
You see the person you have a crush on next to someone who looks like your old friend
You wouldn’t say “hey that looks like my friends mom” you’d think they look like your friend
I've always thought of Ralsei as a representation of Kris' monstersona from when they were younger and wanted to fit in better. Kris is slightly unnerved by Ralsei's existence due to what he represents, and Ralsei only desires to be accepted and connected with Kris. That would sidestep the gross romantic stuff where Ralsei is Asriel, and can also frame the romantic subtext between the two as a magical based metaphor for self-love and acceptance of your past and insecurities
That's what I've always used when writing fan content, and it solves so many problems elegantly
I've felt very similar. Not quite sure what my opinion on Ralsei is rn, but safe to say it's far from Jaru's lmao
as a jaru fan I love how you made jaru's voice high pitch, no notes.
Yeah I probably should have explained somewhere but I sped up his clips lol. I wanted to keep the pacing of the video up.
@shadowhaxor99 he talks so slowly and so much 😭
can't wait for the next video, since later on is where Jaru REALLY goes off the deep end
counterargument: the fact that asriel is an anagram of ralsei, ralsei looks on a surface level like asriel, and that noelle (japanese translation says this is whats implied) says ralsei kind of looks like asriel, the game very much trying to call your attention to them being similar and very much TRYING to make the acid tunnel uncomfortable. it doesnt matter if he actually is asriel thats what the game is trying to tell you.
I don’t think the games telling you he’s Asriel, just that it’s too close for Kris to be comfortable
And Susie also says that Ralsei looks like Asriel. Again, all the goats look alike, but the game has a whole segment just before sealing the first dark fountain that's basically "Holy shmores! Ralsei looks a looooot like Asriel!".
It's pretty clear they are meant to look unusually alike. Very on the nose too.
@@capadociaash8003 obviously he isn't asriel
@@alt4388 I agree but I wanted to give an actual argument for that instead of asserting it
@@pablojimenezarjona4755 Actually she said that Ralsei looks like Toriel, not Asriel
Smth else to add about the spade king knowing about the prophecy is that lancer himself knows about it and even tell Susie and Kris about it if you skip Ralsei monologue about it, which would be kind of weird if lancer knew about it but not his dad.
great point!
jaru has game theory type theories, they might have problems but they're always a great ride lol
yea
Fortunately for Jaru it seems his theory isn’t getting as much hate as Matpats
Yeah
And they're ultimately harmless
it's good that you at least like watching them
Counter point to the "Darkners aren't objects" statement:
The objects could very easily be represting their actual backstories as objects (E.g. Queen as a laptop might have been brought into the Unused classroom at some point), and turning them into backstories for that darkners themselves.
Tennna could, for example, be the one who set up spamton as a spam bot.
Edit: This has not been completely ignored, people have covered this very concept before.
Edit 2: You can't just assume that "Darkners aren't objects" is 100% right and then use it as a "Get debunked lol" when you haven't actually looked at the arguments properly?
Jaru L couter: Ralsei says that the darkners would turn to stone right?
That doesn't seem like spade king's goal?
Point 4: I don't see why making otherwise wholesome scenes have a degree of disgust and worry is necessarily a bad thing. If Toby wants to explore the player doing stuff Kris doesn't want, then making a scene appear wholesome when Kris is uncomfortable is the way to do that?
And Ralsei and Asriel are clearly set up to appear as parralel, regardless of how parralel they actually are? The anagram names? And I don't think anyone didn't immediately react like "OMG ASRIEL"? after Chapter 1?
"Why spend time on a point if you're going to debunk it" because thats how you make balanced arguments that don't end up with someone random pointing out a flaw that you ALREADY HAVE A SOLUTION TO, but decided to withhold for some reason?
I do want to note, I am making these points for the purpose of having a nuanced interaction. I do not personally believe Jaru's theory, but I do find that a lot of your counter points don't actually counter his points.
Hey, thanks for the comment! I'll go through each of your points in order.
The darkners having the same backstory as the objects doesn't work for spamton and tenna. A spam ad and a television don't have a reasonable way for them to meet as objects.
As I mentioned in the "salt clarification", I don't think that darkners know as much as ralsei does when it comes to the legend. Spade king could be unaware of the turning to stone part. Jaru's point was that he doesn't know the legend. Even if spade only knows the vaguest of outlines, that still counts as knowing it.
We can just agree to disagree on the gross wholesome scenes being a bad thing. I feel like that's an extremely heavy handed way to deal with that plotline.
Ralsei and Asriel clearly do have connection of some kind, that is obvious. Despite what our inital reactions might be, however, it's clear that they are very different when you take the time to actually compare them.
As for the spending time on a point you're going to debunk, my issue was not doing it in general, but the fact that jaru goes on about it for around 5 minutes in his video. I thought I made it pretty clear that theres nothing wrong with addressing counter arguments, but it should be done quickly. It slows down the pacing and it makes the point harder to follow.
I appreciate the comment! Glad to have the discussion.
This is a compelling moment in the metaculture of the Toby Fox Cinematic Universe. (I wish Jaru wellness and many free sandwiches.)
I would like to second the wish of wellness and free sandwiches to Jaru
I would like to steal those free sandwiches. However, I will be thirding the wellness one
16:50 nope! in the japanese translation, she says the equivalent of "he kinda looks like..."
still a very good vid
oh interesting! Personally I still feel like that's a bit ambiguous, but as the game comes out hopefully we'll get more context
Asriel still has no horns, im still inclined that she would associate him with Toriel
Ralsei acts very feminine and Toriel despite being toxic still acts motherly, they have the same horns and both use glasses, unless Asriel has acquires visual deficiency from Toriel's DNA but thats an hypotesis
For the 1st thing. Even if you ignored the contradictions. It would still rely on a MASSIVE assumption that determination gives life. When all we see it do is bring back the dead.
What I'm saying is that there is a pretty big difference between giving life to something that was already alive. And giving life to a random object. (the closest we get is flowey. And even than he has asriel.)
is it a massive assumption? we know the creation of dark fountains involves determination in some way. and dark fountains do give life to objects beyond just bringing back the dead.
You just answered your own demand.
Flowey: object + dust + determination = life
Ralsei: object + dust + determination = life
Where is the misunderstanding?
@@TheRealSuperKirby first of all. The Ralsei being object + dust is part of the theory. So you just proved the assumption..... with another assumption. It's also purely circular reasoning.
It also doesn't explain the other items coming to life. Unless we say they all have dust. Which would just require another assumption.
@@somethingclever4297 the closet Is pretty dusty so that isn't out of the realm of possibilities
@@TheRealSuperKirby normal dust. Not monster dust. Unless you are saying all the dust is monster dust. Which would again be an assumption.
Or we say that normal dust can also be used to give life which would be..... You already know.
7:10 not gonna be that guy, but I always assumed that Queen used to be a computer in the Old Classroom that being how some people in the Card Kingdom knew about the Universal Mother.
13:27 this is likely not the case as the adult form of him in undertale is designed more like toriel and of course ralsei. In fact I’d go as far as to say that ralsei looks like the in between state of child Asriel and hyperdeath Asriel which makes a lot of sense since ralsei is a teenager. The biggest difference between the two is the pink on ralsei which could be explained away with ralsei being the red horns headband.
17:02 Massive disagree. Noelle is actually pretty familiar with Asriel, so it would make sense for her to make that kind of observation. Plus, Ralsei tends to get disregarded during chapter 2, but people still occasionally notice his presence, like when Berdly calls him Kris' lackey
26:35 "writing himself into a corner"? Dude. That's just setting up a joke. Being unserious doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense with the rest of the game.
I really don't see where that is faulty writing. Although that doesn't have much to do with the rest of the video so its not that important for the merit of the video.
Also, humans using magic is not that weird. It could be a rare hability that you need to train and/or learn.
Jaru is 200% the MatPat of Deltarune, tho. And I liked MatPat, but 50% of his theories where downright wrong.
Jaru is way worse in that aspect. He makes catastrofic mistakes on each step he takes.
His videos are more an spectacle than educational material.
Gotta stop you there around @6:05. Humans can use magic in Undertale. That's how they created the Barrier.
Yeah, I was originally going to make a comment that I don't agree with Kooki on this, but I felt like it disrupted the pacing too much for a random side tangent about magic existing or not. Long story short I personally think humans do have magic, but I feel like the key point here is that in undertale there's a clear distinction between humans and monsters using determination.
@@shadowhaxor99 Mhm. To address another point Kooki made about Toby Fox contradicting himself: wasn't it the case that humans didn't imprison monsters because they could use magic & humans couldn't, but rather because monsters could take human souls and, in doing so, become much more powerful than humans? Humans can take monster souls, but other than letting them cross a "Soul Barrier", it apparently doesn't change anything.
As for Determination, I don't think it was the case in UT that magic and DT couldn't coexist in a single body (otherwise Asriel couldn't have taken Chara's soul), but simply that monsters are made of magic and nothing else. They didn't have enough physical mass like humans did in order to handle DT, as Always explained.
At 7:45 you use cat posters and the Gerson drawing and playing board as examples of light world objects not being turned into dark world objects. Yes we don’t see Gerson but we do see the chess board used in the first dark world as the path you walk along. When C. Round reaches the end, he is crowned. And the cat posters are seen in Cyber World after Susie and Ralsei leave your party. (Edited for spelling)
While that is true, our point was more focused on asking why they don't become sentient beings. Much like the consumable items we mentioned, why do they become a part of the world instead of coming to life if determination makes these inanimate objects turn into living beings?
@@shadowhaxor99 oh, we’ll I’ve no issues there haha
it feels like jaru makes his video under the guidelines of an opinion essay of an English test
I always assumed that in order for Lightners to comprehend the Dark Worlds, the Darkners use Light World's objects as vessels or as things that could represent them, similarly to biblical angels, who used things common for people to see (eyes, wings, columns, torches ect) for parts of their body that they present to humans. It's not that darkners ARE the objects we see in real world, but merely something they chose// something that was given them to represent themselves. Honestly it's an interesting topic on itself
Theory or an idea that I saw about who Ralsei might be, which not many people discuss - Ralsei might be the "ideal" Kris. Nice, kind and a monster, that looks just like the rest their family, that fits in society. It's a sad idea to think about, but it is interesting nonetheless
ok sorry for spamming comments, but this video is really interesting and i like your guys' delivery
This is a very interesting idea! Honestly, this is pretty close to what I imagine darkners are, I might be on board with your theory!
@@shadowhaxor99 Thank you! Maybe one day you'll be able to turn it into a full video, i'd love to see it!
@@shadowhaxor99 Very, Very insteresting, as we have seen, in Deltarune, darkness acts not like the abscence of light but something that opposes It, perharps Darkness itself could create shadows? "Light shadows" reality itself would only exist If Darkness is casting shadow on something.
Perharps the creations of dark fountains happens because Determination itself when striking, pushes reality itself closer to the Darkness, the light shadow grows bigger like a ball getting closer to a dark lightbulb, the shadow itself while getting bigger, also gets fuzzy and harder to understand.
I can't think of a proof that Darkness itself came before the light world though, or they both need each other shadows to exist? Maybe thats what the prophecy is about
I feel like the Ralsei and Kris dynamic is MEANT to be creepy, us being given options to be romantic towards Ralsei despite the fact that Ralsei tea heals Kris very little
We’re forcing Kris to romanticise an effigy of their brother, or at least someone they aren’t too interested in, and we’ll likely be confronted on that in the future
agreed
I literally just typed out why I think this exact thing lmao shoulda just scrolled
Maybe it's because it's such an uncomfortable topic for me, but I feel like there's ways to still do something similar without going as far as Jaru's theory would imply.
I'm inclined to agree with what Salt said above. Ralsei and Kris' dynamic CAN be weird and offputting without it literally being incestuous, and it probably is meant to be weird to some degree. The game goes out of it's way to make us feel bad for puppeting Kris around, and that would extend to their relationships, too. I just don't think Ralsei is meant to be any kind of stand-in for Asriel, specifically because Ralsei is always the one STARTING those romantic connotations, NOT the player. If he WERE a stand-in for Asriel, it'd imply Asriel has feelings for Kris, and that is so much more than just "creepy", it'd be straight up disgusting. On par with Mad Father's narrative lmao
@@kookiautumn1710 @shadowhaxor99 Oh, certainly, me saying that is not me agreeing with Jaru's theory in any way, it's incredibly flawed and is what i consider the bad side of crack deltarune theories. It's why i called Ralsei an "effigy" of Kris' brother or "someone they aren't too interested in" in case the Ralsei Asriel lookalike connection isn't going to be focused on. Which I believe it certainly will be since Susie blaintantly points out that Ralsei looks like Kris' mom and could pretend to be a long lost cousin in the last section of Chapter 2. This piece of evidence, for me, sidestepping the issue of Noelle not finishing her sentence when seeing Ralsei and Susie.
I just think it was emphasised so much in this video that this uncomfortable thing CAN'T happen even though it would be a perfect way to tie into our control over Kris being something they don't like, which appears to be one of, if not THE main point of Deltarune.
By the way, this is a great video, It's great to see someone other than Andrew really TALKING about Jaru's insane way of theorising.
Thank you for hosting this week's "DO YOU KNOW DELTARUNE" I'm so glad I was allowed to be a guest here! Though I'd appreciate it if next time my opponent actually knew a little more about MY favourite characters, specifically. I can excuse blatant misunderstanding of the themes of the source material, but I draw the line at not having obscure knowledge about Spade King.
5:58
Humans CAN do magic. The intro says humans sealed the monsters underground with a magic spell.
I kind of do want to go with a _version_ of the darkners are objects given animation theory, in the sense that perhaps the memories of a darkner is formed out of the histories of the objects in question, this could be an answer to how darkners are aware of things before/without/beyond the existence of their dark worlds
use the laptop in the computer lab? queen will remember a version of that
'Noelle Loves Traffic She Looks It Up All The Time!'
play with the cards or other toys in the unused classroom? the card castle's court will remember a version of that
'They were like gods to us, those who gave us purpose.'
bring objects from one room to another in the past? their darkworld counterparts will tell you they're old friends
as for the nature of how some objects are animated by darkness as terrain or items, perhaps it relates to a lack of history. something that was created recently, or never moved anywhere during its time existing... alternatively, maybe it has to do with size or complexity, something too small? an item, to big? terrain. It could even be related to a lightner's ability to passively personify the objects they interact with, someone is far more likely to characterize a toy or tool than they might think of the floor or a table or a sign on the wall... perhaps a darkner's will is formed out of the very dreams of the lightners that interacted with them in the lightworld.
Don't forget the well known fact that my Flowey voice and my Lancer voice sound pretty similar. Flowey is Lancer confirmed!
This is all the proof I need right here. Finally, the Lancer Flowey theory is gaining traction!
This video is like watching 2 math majors struggle to figure out what 2+2 is. Jaru's ralsei video is bad but at least it isn't condesending at the same time.
I have nothing to add except for you to visualise a gif of Gaster dancing around Piles Of Asrel’s Dust….
i think the connection between ralsei and asriel regardless is implying an incest and that it is part of the narrative of your forcing your will unto kris but alas
About the whole teleportation thing, yeah, there do seem to be ways to teleport within a given dark world, but it is still notable that Ralsei is the only darkner who has actually been shown to travel between separate dark worlds. And it seems pretty likely that he's going to appear in the upcoming Chapter 3 dark world as well, given some of the teases and previews we've seen.
And, yes, the darkners know each other, which could absolutely imply that all darkners can just travel freely between all dark worlds in the same way that Ralsei is able to. But . . . the Chapter 2 dark world has only been opened for less than a day by the time Kris and Susie get to it. Without getting into Knight discourse, we know that the computer lab fountain wasn't opened in Chapter 1, because if you check the computer lab in Chapter 1, it just says that there's a dog inside working (presumably the annoying dog AKA Toby), without mentioning any kind of fountain or even anything particularly strange in the room. So, without getting into who might have created the fountain, we know that it must have been made at some point after the ending of Chapter 1 but before Kris and Susie go to the library in Chapter 2.
My point is that if the dark fountain in Chapter 2 were really opened for less than a day, then how would the characters from the card kingdom know the characters from the cyber world? Queen implies very strongly that the dark world was "created" as a direct result of the fountain being opened. You could possibly interpret this as meaning that the dark worlds had already existed independent of any kind of fountain (and that maybe the fountains just serve as gateways from the pre-existing dark worlds to the light world), but why does she and other characters talk about it as though the fountain itself is what caused the dark worlds to exist in the first place? If it were really just a portal or something, then why doesn't anyone just, like, say that directly? Is it meant to be some sort of secret that the dark fountains are just glorified doors between the dark worlds and the light world? And if they are just pathways between the dark world and the light, then why don't we just show up directly at the fountains when we enter the dark worlds? Why do we wind up like 100 miles away from the fountains if the fountains are the portals between the light world and the dark?
I think the reason why this element of the narrative is so often overlooked in theories and discussions like this is because it just . . . doesn't make much sense when you think about it like this. Or at least I haven't found an explanation that really makes much sense to me. The closest explanation that kind of makes sense is "Last Thursdayism," which is the belief that the dark worlds were created entirely by opening the fountains, and that when the fountains are opened, all of the darkners get implanted with elaborate false memories that make them think that they've been alive for much longer than they really have. To be clear, this is a real-world philosophical concept that isn't limited to Deltarune, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true, whether in the real world or in Deltarune. Even if it is true, it doesn't explain how the characters from Chapter 1 dark world could possibly know about the characters from Chapter 2, since how would they be implanted with false memories of a world/characters who don't even physically exist yet, since the Chapter 2 dark fountain hasn't been opened? I don't really believe in this interpretation, but I legitimately can't think of any other interpretations that can truly explain all of the discrepancies.
I know that there is a lot to suggest that the dark worlds exist independently of the dark fountains, since many darkners reference events that seem to take place before the creation of a dark fountain. But there's also a lot to suggest that the dark fountains are what create the dark worlds in the first place, and I feel like you can't really dismiss that if you want to figure out what the true nature of the dark worlds even is. This is a very glaring contradiction within the narrative of Deltarune so far, and I don't think we'll see a satisfying answer to most of these questions until we just get more chapters. So at this point, I don't think you can really use "the darkners all know each other" as hard evidence of anything, because while it is a fact that they do know each other, it raises so many questions about how and why they could possibly know each other that it bogs down any discussion with all of these seemingly contradictory points of evidence.
Anyway, cool video. I've yet to watch part 2 but I will be interested to see it. I guess I am a "Jaru fan," so I don't fully agree with everything you've laid out (even beyond what I said in this comment), but I understand most of your points and I can respect it.
I have a theory that I just made up with very little evidence to support it: The Dark Worlds are all one world that's just an alternate version to the Light World, kinda like the regular world and the upside-down in Stranger Things. These Dark Worlds can have alternate versions of the objects in the Light World brought to life as Darkners if they're not already being used for something in the light world, such as Susie's chalk.
I almost forgot to add, the fountains create "portals" or "gateways" into the sections of the Dark World.
I actually think this theory is alright! For evidence, the fact that the darkners from other worlds know each other is a pretty big point that could support the idea it's all one world until a fountain is made. And it being a parallel to the light world makes sense as the physical location of Castletown and Card Kingdom in relation to each other is the same as the closet's location in relation to the unused classroom, with one door seperating them.
LITERALLY what i was thinking. Ever since i saw Jaru's theory of Ralsei, i've been bugged about it a lot. I just didn't know how to explain it. Thanks for saying what i wanted to for so long
10:54 here one point that prove you point. lancer know about the prophecy as he literally mentions it
I feel like people forget that Jaru doesn’t care as much about the small details, preferring to favor the theory that is most narratively compelling…
Also SPEAK FOR YOURSELF I LIKE WHEN JARU REPEATS STUFF BC IM SLOW!!!
Also Jaru isn’t saying that Ralsei and flowey are created by the same process, just that they are narrative parallels. So if flowey is evil dead Asriel, couldn’t Ralsei be good dead asriel? That makes sense narratively, especially with all the other similar yet opposite events within deltarune such as toriel getting alphys her job as opposed to asgore. As well as direct parallels, asgore and toriel getting divorced, etc. every recurring character in deltarune has narrative parallels to their character in undertale. This is the argument for flowey and Ralsei, not the determination process itself.
Hey just wanted to comment because I realized I really wasn't clear enough about the point of repeating stuff. Repeating stuff is fine, it makes sense in videos as long as Jaru's. The issue for me is how long he takes to recap his videos. He can go on for 5 minutes at a time which grinds the pacing of the video to a halt. Ultimately, I'm ok with recaps so long as they keep the pacing of the video intact.
I have no problem with Jaru, really I don't. Making theories that go in unexpected directions is really cool! However. I will always think of Jaru as the deltarune theory Joker. Great content with interesting ideas, I just don't know where he comes up with it.
around the 16 min mark as another person said the japanese version literally says “that person they’re with, they kinda look like" which asriel and ralsei do look alike and i see no other people looking like him
IVE BEEN WAITING FOR A VIDEO LIKE THIS FOR SO LONG
Where have u seen you before...
Turn the lights off perhaps?
Except this video is also blatantly wrong or misconstruing obvious information. Perhaps it's time to form your own thoughts instead of taking theory videos as gospel and feeling slighted by them.
@@anonymoususer9197fun fact this video does have a few things i disagree with! also why are you taking this so personally lol
@@ceriisu I don't take it that personally really it was a bit harsh earlier I was kinda miffed because this video has an air of knowing better when there's clearly wrong points. At the end of the day theories are theories even hard doesn't take them that seriously and knows they're outlandish so I find wanting him to be called out or making a video like this so unnecessary
@@anonymoususer9197 idk i think if someone is putting blatant false information in their theories and spreading some iffy ideas about trauma/mental illness thats worth criticizing at the very least, part 2 brings up much more valid points than part 1 imo
jaru insists not to treat his theories as fanfiction, so i think it's fair to analyze them as though they were something that would actually happen ingame :3
We gonna talk about that in undertale humans CAN use magic?
Its in the opening story.... and in the omefa flowey fight.
Hm, fair and valid points and opinions, I have never really been sold by his Ralsei Theory either, while it is a pretty interesting idea though.
I gotta say, so far you’ve done pretty well, will look forward to see Part 2.
Anyway, i think it’s worth mentioning, in case it hasn’t been mentioned already, that according to him, when he makes a Theory, he usually considers Two Things (if i remember correctly) first and foremost,
Weather or not it makes sense for the Narrative or even a Compelling Narrative for that matter and weather or not it makes sense for the person behind the Story to do it,
In other words, Jaru’s Theories is less about evidence and more about what makes a (in his opinion) good, interesting and compelling Story.
So, about the Undertale Favoritism, while it might have something to do with it at least partly, I think the reason why he focused on Undertale so much, is probably also due to it being another official Game that Toby has made,
So, he’s thinking that Deltarune might fall under a similar Style to how Toby writes Stories, at least in his point of view.
The spade king doesn’t know about the whole prophecy or he wouldn’t trigger the roaring. Cause that would just turn him to stone. Him knowing about a version of the prophecy that doesn’t freeze him as a statue for eternity is plausible though. But similar to queen he doesn’t know the prophecy as told by ralsei
Those are fandom crazy a you need to follow theroy or if you make your own theroy they will harass you for no reason
I dont believe in a lot of Jaru's theories but I think it's very very silly of you guys to insist that Ralsei and Asriel are completely unrelated.
The things they said about incest are, with all due respect, completely backwards. Occasionally blushing doesn't always imply a crush, it could just be nervousness from how he presumably has never been close to anyone ever. Hugging doesn't always have to be romantic. I'd honestly say it's the other way around, Kris X Ralsei is a cursed ship BECAUSE of the similarities in name alone(they are right in pointing out the lack of a visual similarities though). Ralsei is(presumably) very young, much younger than Kris, meaning even if we ignore that their names are anagrams Kris X Ralsei is already a cursed ship.
i agree, while i hate this jaru theory and think they poke holes in it decently well, i don’t like how they argue a lot of their counterpoints
@@stardust-reverienot really there just pointing out the flaws in the theory and adding there idea
They're similar on a superficial level, thats It.... Just like every goat looking monster we have seen
There maybe a reason for this representation apart from meta context, and they both adress this.
And Asriel has no horns
Oh damn I just watched one of your videos
What are the odds I see you on the comments of the video I watch immediately after, thats crazy
I hate the fact that the internet and overzealous fandoms have created a situation where content creators feel the need to preview every ad rem critique with "this is not a hate video".
The "darkners not being objects" 'point' had me doing a triple take cause i was agreeing with most stuff. Just gave me whiplash, cause darkners as of ch2 at least are absolutely confirmed to be "objects-and-" When you carry these objects with you to the playertown for them to come back to life, as well as taking lancer and rouxls with you to the light world and them reverting to the jack of spades and the rules card. O.O
How do you explain the fact that, even when you bring an object to the closet, the darkner doesn't accompany you if they weren't recruited? I'm not talking about snowgrave where they're dead, I'm talking about a regular battle where they flee and you can no longer recruit them. Even if you bring their item to the closet, they don't show up. How do you explain that?
And furthermore, how do you explain the darkners knowing each other? Queen and King, Spamton and Tenna, Tasque Manager and Jevil, and so on. If they were just objects, and not people outside of the influence of the light world, how would they even be able to form familal bonds or interact with one another? There has to be SOME way for them to be alive outside of the opening of a fountain, otherwise the entire setup of the game makes no sense.
@@kookiautumn1710 i will be clear here, i am just confused on the outward expression of "absolutely not! no way at all" when darkners themselves tell us as such through ch1 and up to the beginning of ch2- im not trying to be hostile if i come across as such im just confused to the "matter-of-fact-ness" of the "they are not objects".
The darkners tell us in the game of lightners being all akin to creators of the darkners, those giving them purpose- so we know they have a history of being given sentience and purpose by lightners, again at least the ch1 darkners that are literal toys.
An example being quoted directly from Seam:
"Long ago, the Darkners lived in harmony with the Lightners.
They were like Gods to us. Our protectors. Our creators. Those who gave us purpose...
Then, one day we were all locked away in this prison... And the Lightners never returned.
Embittered, the King took up arms, and aims to take revenge upon the Lightners that left us behind.
'Course, even among his troops, some still distantly hope the Lightners will return..."
This implying EITHER fountains were created to play with the darkners somehow long ago as well, which initially gave them sentience OR just like in toy story, the toys just... Always were sentient to an extent after creation.
And... I dont know if we can expect a full explanation on that because as far as what we have right now, its just as much information as we were given original toy story, as they gave no reason for the toys being alive/sentient, just that they were. and THEY certainly built bonds with the other toys. it still made sense in a fun narrative.
and sure, we have very little information on that "history" including how darkners from different fountains know each other, like how they knew queen/others... Nearly none other than yes that exact information that they "share" a history to an extent. Could be explained as simply as something like the card deck being brought once and awhile to the librarby to play [after gaining sentience] or something much more complicated that gets explained to us later.
Regardless of when, who or "how" the darkners at one point were "objects-and" (im trying to be very careful and specific by using that "and" because YES, there are darkners from ch2 and likely forward that are not "physical" objects within the light world.)
For losing recruits and "regardless of bringing their objects back they don't show up" that STILL only happens in ch2 regardless of bully or snowgrave route- and compared to the ch1 darkners, we dont actually see what we pick up when the game says "you gathered up everything" but noticably have no giant ball of junk to carry around. There are a few obvious actual ones like Maus- being literal computer mice, but when all the others are based on computer programs and popup ads, viruses, etc- it could be as simple as we grabbed a laptop, mice, and an extension cable or two. we know we grab "something" for them to come with us.
if we dont recruit anything, its most likely the "everything" is just what we could recruit in whatever choices we make. Its as possible as all the programs we met coming from but ONE laptop or one library computer and any programs we didnt recruit just refuse to join us in playertown after the computer is brought in. again since we don't get to see it, we don't have an expressly given explanation for THOSE darkners yet, but either we get it in time, or we dont and thats ok.
It doesn't rule out that darkner=toys/other lightner creations because we are explicitly shown and told that all of the darkners wee meet in chapter 1 (... of course big question marks on ralsei wooOoo) and at least a few of the darkners from chapter 2 are all toys or otherwise objects given sentience at one point in deltarunes history.
They seem to have never "lost" their sentience regardless of any fountains being closed after their original abandonment within the light world (or, even within the dark world still based on that seam quote) by other lightners, back in the day.
one way or the other, if we want to be told exACTLY how things work, for these other darkners, we are gonna have to wait for toby to tell us. Or until he doesn't and keep coming up with things ourselves. but, my disagreement on how "matter-of-fact" and aggressive bringing up "NO, DARKNERS AREN'T OBJECTS" was, stands based on the existing in-game presented evidence, as far as the chapter one darkners go, of course. otherwise all the others are still based on lightner creations, but how or when those gained sentience and interacted with each other, we may never have canon answers, even me suggesting the "laptop" was just an idea to try to fill in gaps for the programs.
Hope this explains why i was so taken aback by the aggressive insistence on the (AT LEAST half-false) statement being fact..
@@DragonflyFox that seems to be the general consensus about Darkness, i just don't understand, yeah, hypotetically the Card deck could have been brought to the library, but How does a spam ad know possibily something related to an television, or how would he Interact with a Jevil Card?, HECK Toby even implied that they are DIVORCED,a spam bot and a Jevil Card, there has to be more than they're objects and their story happens because of Lightners, because otherwise darkners that are concepts instead of objects would not be able to Interact with the rest of darkners
honestly it doesn't really matter to me whether Jaru's theories are wrong or if his arguments are bad. maybe thats a problem, but i've never been one to value a theory based on its likelihood. i dont even believe my personal original theories. I don't think that's where the value is from either. Like, imagine if somebody is making a painting, but its only half-done. i can speculate about what the other half is supposed to be, and fill in the rest of the painting, but there are some things i won't be able to predict no matter what, and thats fine. Just because my painting was different from the original artist's doesn't mean that i didn't just make a piece of art.
I really hate that people like Jaru and MatPat get so much flack for their ideas, because even though they are absurd and nearly impossible, they are still really fun! and that's all that matters.
also i really like that he repeats himself and explores absurd ideas, even if you don't, some people do, and most importantly he does, he's said before that he gets really disheartened when people critizise his video structure, and i really wish people would just leave him alone about it. I'm sorry if you took that the wrong way btw, I'm not mad at you, i just wish you would critique the art rather than the artist
I’m not a fan of jaru, but i think it’s kind of weird to say Asriel and Ralsei don’t act similar by comparing Ralsei at the beginning of his character arc to Asriel at the end of his character arc. From what we hear from the recordings in the true lab, Asriel was willing to help their sibling kill them selves to free all monsters and only started having doubts at the last second. Asriel sounds like kind of a pushover, which, after the plan fails because he’s a good person, is where he gets the idea of “kill of be killed” into his head, even if it takes a while for him to accept it. That and at the point we meet Asriel as Flowey, he’s been “alive” for an unknowable amount of time(partially due to not knowing how many souls were used to revive him and the resets he’s done). Ralsei by comparison couldn’t have existed for very long, at least in the way he is now, because nobody discovers the closet dark world before Kris and Susie, so he is probably not even a day old when we meet him. I know why you pointed out their differences, and i agree with you saying that just because they look and act sort of similar doesn’t mean their the same guy, i just think that it’s a bit weird to compare them at the points their at now when we don’t have the end for Ralsei yet. Then again Jaru said that deltarune is telling the exact same story as undertale, so it’s not like your the only one that’s making that mistake(hell, that mistake is pretty much the main building block of jaru’s video). Sorry for the essay.
I don't think you're approaching this from the right angle. You're comparing asriel from when he first became flowey to ralsei at the start of the game, while kooki and I are comparing flowey from the start of the game to ralsei from the start of the game. You have no idea what ralsei's arc was before the games story, so I feel like this is not a relevant comparison
Considering that, during the deltacast, Jaru described himself as [I'm paraphrasing this] 'A fanfiction author disguised as a theorist'
He'll probably agree with you on anything you can cite, because he doesn't really put much stock in all his predictions coming true, he's mostly posting daydreams about deltarune for his fans to enjoy.
5:58 Note: Humans are directly stated in Undertale's opening to have sealed the monsters underground using a magic spell. It is only in monster historical plaques that humans are stated to be incapable of using magic, these may be biased in a manner that the opening narration is not.
After the Deltacast, he went out of his way to say that he doesn't like being called a fan fic writer. I don't like the implication from the way he phrased it, but I'm sure he was getting the same joke about it repeated over and over.
What I really didn't like was when he said "I'd rather you call me racial slurs than a fanfic writer."
@@CalamitasCalliope
Based on that, I think Jaru has either a severe misconception about what fanfiction is or no idea that fanfiction can be really great.
@@IrvingIV I don't think it's either of those; it's just that "fanfiction" is a word with mostly negative connotations - esp. in this context.
Salt
That's me!
Theory time
When it comes to chapter 1 of Deltarune, Kris and Susie enter the dark fountain of the closet. This dark fountain is said to operate differently from other dark fountains by Ralsei since it is composed of pure darkness. As such the only denizen of the fountain that we know of, being Ralsei, operated differently than other darkners, which we see since Ralsei does not turn to stone in chapter 1 nor chapter 2. When we need to get to the abandoned classroom in chapter 1 where the dark fountain was opened, we take the big door. This allows us to move from one space to another without passing through the light world. It also allowed Lancer to pass through as well. If that logic is correct, then could Ralsei have passed though the big door to head to the computer lab? Assuming that Ralsei is telling the truth when he said he sensed a dark fountain when the party regroups in the cyber world, then the dark fountain was opened up sometime after we had left castletown in the beggining of chapter 2
TLDR: Big door in castle town lets lighteners and darkners move through opened dark worlds without passing through the light world. When chapter 3 begins, Ralsei will take big door to enter the Dreemur household dark fountain.
About how ralsei gets from one dark world to another, we see this happen on screen.
Like the weird closet area going into castle town and never seen again
Or that giant golden door gets him and kris from castle town to card kingdom. Ralsei even says that the card kingdom fountain "appeared on the horizon"
So the dark worlds probably have some kind of physical area between them, or at least castle town has some kind of connection with other dark worlds
thank you for speeding him up. even on 2 times speed he’s still too slow to talk
The problem with Jaru is that he's a fanfic writer who calls himself a theorist (probably because making fanfic for most things gets you bullied online, or at least used to, and he doesn't wanna deal with that, but that's a baseless assumption)
If he just said "yeah so this is my fanfic" I'd have no problem with him, but instead he insists on spreading false information trying to make his ideas seem reasonable. Sometimes he hits gold, like his Gerson Boom Knight fic, but most of the time it's inane bullshit that falls apart if you think for a minute
my brain injecting the horrid image of alvin from alvin and the chipmunks explaining a deltarune theory fills me with such disgust
Alvin and the prophecy of thee deltarune
Oh my toby fox
Finally somebody dose something like this
Every time i watch one of jarus videos i pretty much think about stuff like that
It's my favorite Deltarune theorist:
A salt shaker 🧂
30:58 --
Jaru: "They're both clearly hiding something from the player!"
Salt: "This's by far one of the weakest points he could have made. Every character is hiding something from the player, because no one just spills all their secrets the second you meet them."
True! This isn't a 2009 movie about lying or anything, it's more realitous (not a real word but it gets the point across) than subjective.
I'm kinda eh on this. It feels a bit mean spirited honestly. I don't even agree with theory but some of these are just wrong. Completely misunderstanding how darkners work and that they have history with specific people using them in the light world and having been moved around before the creations of the fountains and such. 5, 6, and 7 are actually correct tho, but only 6 does any damage to his theory. He made one specific post with evidence in regards to something about Ralsei on Twitter which seems to imply he doesn't believe in point 7 anymore.
9 I don't really have anything to say about. It doesn't debunk anything but the it could go either way with this. Some of 10 is fine.
15:27 I mean.. they are not even the same species.
It obviously does not make things any better, but you brought it up.
But I gotta say, in my playthrough I personally didn't interpret anything beyond a desire for a platonic friendship from Ralsei.
Poor guy have been alone for a very long time and are not used to having friends around. You can tell by the manual he made and the talks about prophecies that we are a big deal to him and he does not want to screw it up.
Ralsei is absolutely lonely and starved of any real social acceptance, but... contrast the way he talks about Susie and the way he talks about Kris, then look at how Noelle talks about both, they act as really good parallels to each other.
Ralsei is shocked by Susie, sometimes antagonistic towards her, doesn't really understand her, but learns to accept her for who she is, and realises she's a good friend even if she isn't exactly like him, or like what he thought she should be.
On the other hand, Ralsei is nearly always in awe of Kris, complimenting them and being flustered by any gesture they make towards him. Kris can say anything, and Ralsei will obediantly follow, even if it goes against his own morals and wants (unlike with Susie, who he actively calls out on being a bad hero in chapter 1).
Similarly, Noelle is shocked by Kris, sometimes antagonistic towards them and doesn't really understand them, even if they grew up together, and during the course of chapter 2 learns to appreciate them as the kind of friend they are, even if they aren't the type of friend she needs.
While, with Susie, she's a constant flustered mess around her, complimenting her and going out of her way to be near her, any gesture Susie makes at Noelle makes her squeal in one way or another. Because of Susie, Noelle is able to go against what she's been taught and stand up for herself, even if it otherwise goes against how she normally acts.
There's a clear distinction in romantic and platonic subtext between the kids, imo.
Jaru fan here! I LOVE listening to different perspectives. After watching this, Ralsei does seem to be a darkner- not a combination of lighter and darkner or something else. A sub-category of darkner yes, but still a darkner nonetheless. Lovely video! 👍🏽
This is a pretty good video! Though I do have some thoughts about determination in deltarune, even though determination has only been mentioned to us yet as the way a lightner can create a dark fountain, I don't think it automatically means that the determination in undertale and deltarune work entirely differently, just that dark fountain creation is just another facet of what determination can do and that is what deltarune's story is mainly going to be focusing on
Counter arguments for points 2 and 3:
Jevil and spamton know about each other and can foreshadow future chapters because something (shadow crystals, Gaster, whatever the fuck made them go insane) told them about future events.
Task manager probably sensed chaotic energy in the Jevil tail and doesn't specifically know Jevil.
Though Lancer being Kings son doesn't technically make sense if darkners are objects, it could just be something Toby didn't care about.
It's possible that the memories darkners have of the dark world existing before the fountains were merely fabricated upon the fountains creation.
Perhaps the laptop was brought into the classroom at one point him and that's why some CH1 darkners know about Queen? I don't fully know but that's the best guess I can take.
For the idea that not all objects turn into people, there could be parts of both dark worlds that we don't see, and what controls whether they turn into people or just different objects might have something to do with the complexity of the object, you may not call a card very complex but the design on it could be complex.
A possible thing you may try to the counter argue is why only the recruited CH2 darkners join castle town, I don't fully have an answer for that, it is possible, though unlikely, that Kris just doesn't take them for whatever reason but it's much more likely that the darkners end up in a different part of castle town.
With all of the points mentioned above, I believe I've given sufficient explanations for why the darkners are objects brought to life and why some darkners know each other from other dark worlds meaning that travel from one dark world to another may not be possible for darkners. All of the other points I agree with, especially that the idea that they look similar is false. When I first watched Jarus theory video over a year ago I was still very gullible at the time and still knew that it was bullshit. Though I would still would call myself a Jaru fan, my thoughts have been getting progressive more neutral toward him as time goes on(his hyperlink blocked video was particularly bad) and this video did make me See more flaws in him, but it didn't fully convince me because of the two points I rebutteld.
I have counter arguments on part two however I generally agree with that one more.
Love how you say that this video was not made to make fun of Jaru then you high pitch his voice seconds later LMAO I'd rather perish than watch all of this
that’s just a natural product of speeding up his clips. i don’t think it was meant to make fun of him.
Yo, as someone who genuinely does not like Jaru's videos (or honestly Jaru as a person after his blatant ableism in a LOT of his videos AND the entire fucking The Greatest Living Show analysis but that's just, another thing entirely) and actually bond over some of my friends over how much we dislike his videos and I genuinely LOVE that there is someone who thinks the same as us about the quality of his theories and his videos. There were multiple times throughout the two parts of these videos where we paused to rant about something and then upon continuing the video you two brought up the EXACT same point. Thanks a lot for this video.
TRUE AND REAL
SO TRUEEEEE
Hey, a genuine question im not being sarcastic, i just want to know when was he ableist? Somehow i have missed It and If thats true that makes me sad
@@lulnara5128 just look at how he talks any and all mental disorders, literally it's ableism and/or immense fetishizing
@@lulnara5128 Jaru makes a lot of false claims about mental health. In very this theory he treats trauma as if it inherently makes people who experience it 'evil'. I don't think it's rooted in malice as much as just ignorance, but it's still really problematic.
33:55 i was totally expecting an explosion
missed opportunity of the century, deleting my channel as we speak
30:04 after all, if blast damage and fire damage are considered different things in games like TF2, then they can be considered different things in Undertale and Deltarune.
Speaking as a long-time Jaru theory hater (nothing against the guy I just think his theories are bad), The Asriel section kind of sucks here. It is blatantly obvious that Ralsei exists to draw connections to Asriel. Not even worth entertaining otherwise. To ignore this connection requires you to literally abandon common sense. His name is an anagram, that's literally all you need to know, but on top of that he's a boss monster.
He doesn't look literally IDENTICAL to Asriel because, like Kris to Frisk/Chara, he's older then Asriel was relatively, which consequently would result in in him being taller, and having his horns start to grow in. (Note that Kris specifically asked their parents when there's were going to start growing in, implying that when they and Asriel were younger, Asriel's horns hadnt yet, and grew in later with age, like an actual goat.)
It would be straight up irresponsible storytelling for Toby to make this connection and then not follow through on it. He would be superfluouizing his own narrative. This isn't a hallucination, it's bright as day and obvious. That does NOT necessarily mean that he IS Asriel or even that he has some literal connection to him, but saying "they look and act nothing alike" is PROFOUNDLY ignorant.
It's also just straight up incorrect to proclaim that Asriel "chose" pacifism at the end of the game and wasn't naturally like that. He absolutely was, as he explicitly states in his final monologue at the flower bed that when he and Chara were at the village, Chara wanted to kill the humans but he resisted because he didn't want to hurt anyone. Asriel has ALWAYS been a pacifist, Flowey was merely a corruption of that base born out of dissociation pessimism and cynicism from reset after reset.
Asriel as presented at the end of Undertale does not act *identically* to Ralsei, but he does act very comparably, and he barely had any screen time anyway so it's not like there's that much to go off of. Bottom line though, they are both pacifistic soft spoken pushovers that let other people walk all over them because they're dependent on their approval and hapiness. They don't even need to act identically though because no one with any half a brain is suggesting that Ralsei is *"literally"* Asriel anyway, but rather a reflection of him in some way. Be at the Darkner manifestation of the headband, the abstract memories Kris has of him, "piles of Asriel's dust" I guess 💀.
You don't "accidentally" make a character look like another one, *and also* make their name an anagram, *and also* make them behave similarly, *and also* have multiple characters comment on how they look familiar, *and also* give Kris a tensious relationship with them emulating the strained relationship they have with their brother.
The acknowledgment the romantic tension between Ralsei and Kris gets icky when you entertain this idea is SO CLOSE to getting the point but not quite. You have correctly identified that this is pretty disturbing, but have failed to identify why that fact precludes it from being intentional. Undertale was already a very disturbing game at times. You literally commit mass genocide, down to attempted murder of innocent children. Deltarune, on a meta level, is a thematically about the relationship a protagonist and the player controlling them. Simply acknowledging that this is potentially disturbing isn't enough to discount it.
(Side note: the point about Noelle's "it kind of looks like..." Is incorrect. In the Japanese version the line translates more accurately to "his appearance is like". She's explicitly talking about Ralsei's appearance, not the situation. Note that the JP translation is extremely heavily overviewed by Toby, and that he is fluent in Japanese. )
I also disagree with the semantics on darkness in relation to their objects, and you failed to mention the most damning evidence of Spade King knowing about the prophecy, that being that if you choose not to listen to it, Lancer directly references it, asking if you recognize him as "the tear-shaped kid from the prophecy" (paraphrased) but aside from those few things this is a good video overall. Jaru theories are often rampant with confirmation bias. He dismisses suggestions on a whim, works backwards from his conclusions, and builds theories on his own theory in a Google Translate style system that leads to him to lose progressively more and more of the plot every video..
this is. a super minor nitpick about a joke however. noelle Is in undertale. not in game (though that’s debatable- whever the dog shrine is sans has dialogue about a snow storm that people connect to noelle), but in the alarm clock dialogue. so does rudy, though he dead, and susie Might. suzy susie, you know the whole thing. also i dont know how much of ralsei is implied to be a love interest to kris? this is honestly just a me thing but this could be a hierarchy thing (questioning whether ralsei likes kris or Us the player, and it being a bit of a parallel to noelle in the snowgrave route. also ralsei could just be weird about it and its completely platonic- blushing is both used for crushes but also awkwardness and embarrassment, ralsei actually has a bit of a tier system, like he doesnt consider him and lancer to be friends while its the opposite for lancer, and susie being tied to the prophecy seems to be important to him. like his reactions to kris are more visible yes, but he still interacts with susie, arguably more in certain bits. acid tunnel of love i dont have anything for sorry this is. incoherent but basically it just doesnt seem like a lot of evidence? jumping the gun. plus player vs kris controversy) i was going to say something about the darkners not being objects but i dont have anything for that, but yeag. dont. take this super seriously
Nitpick: its the ends justify the means. Not the means justify the ends.
I was hyped to see this video, making a detailed rebuttal of Jaru's theory. And a lot was technically accomplished, I have to praise that, but:
- you put so much behind a couple of refutations that aren't nearly as solid as you made them out to be, to say the least,
- seemingly misunderstand and choose to disregard his approach to crafting theories, that is narrative parralels between a game and its spiritual successor with something as strange as the Mario and that one Zelda NPC example (although things like the fire interruption are indeed reaching as evidence),
- and finally, being overall extremely nit-picky and mean-spirited;
made it quite difficult to watch.
Thank you and good day.
@22:35 I've always thought that Ralsei is idealized version of Kris if he had born like his brother Asriel. (Ralsei having similar colored horns as Kris's headband and being mostly the missing the crayola color) Like Kris is the Ego, Ralsei being the Superego and the player being the Id. Personally I believe that Ralsei's "love" scenes is mostly player using Ralsei to show to self love himself in platonic way during a depression. Like I saw them as "this is like Kris accepting his past and platonicly self-loving himself what he is." So in a way I believe that if Id (The player) is left without superego (Ralsei) weird things starts to happen in the fantasy dark world. Kris being too reliant on others and doing as others tell him.
@19:37-.-I don't see a problem with this because these are potential alternatives people could bring up anyway, and explaining why these explanations are not more likely than the explanation he lands on is useful. Plus, it shows he put a lot of thought into the theory, and I like hearing other people work through ideas.
I am now a lancer = flowey believer
I dont mind jaru...but i found his way of doing theories boring, i mainly watch half breed chaos cause they put a decent amount of personal to their content.
Hell i had double speed those jaru bits cause they dragged on so much
This is so deliciously cathartic. I DESPISE theories that are infested with logical fallacies and assuming the conclusion, and seeing someone else exuding the same frustration I have at its very existence while also disassembling it with a precision that I could only dream of is *exquisite.*
"JUST. GET. TO. THE. POINT."
- next scene is a joke segment.
16:09 i actually think this moment is kinda supposed to be sorta weird, when you take into account that ralsei, while not looking a LOT like asriel, looks sorta like a boss monster kris age, which would both to kris and very obviously to the many players (see: the hundreds if not thousands of people who first saw unhatted ralsei and thought "ASRIEL??????????" even if later realizing "oh not asriel", it still makes you feel weird, it's supposed to, because it very likely makes KRIS feel weird, imo it adds to the "player vs kris" aspect when you can try to force the game in a romantic direction with a character that looks sorta like asriel, even if the resemblance isn't any more than the other boss monsters
But thats just my interpretation, so take it with many many grains of salt
ALSO. while i do get where your coming from about undertale favoritism (applying rules to a different media where those rules are Very Different). keep in mind undertale is still very connected to deltarune and toby actively plays on our knowledge of undertale and makes direct references to it (the jukebox and bake sales comment the narrator makes, as well as literally never mentioning determination in save points likely to hammer in its Different here. also the themes of creepypastas in both games, first the genocide route and then the snowgrave route (being more obscure this time, as the genocide route was likely to be a secret route?)). like yes theyre different and have different stories, however theyre still related. drawing on information from undertale to deltarune isnt necessarily bad, just in this context its misinformed. especially in ejecting dt with objects gives them the will to live- it only worked with flowey and asriels dust then, just a plain object wouldnt work even in undertale and Didnt, as alphys tried.
Yeah, I do agree that the games are connected. I'm a little harder on the idea since I've gotten so burned out on people trying to make them way more connected then I think they are, but it's undeniable that they aren't completely separate. For me, I require someone to prove why the connection they are making is reasonable before they use it as evidence. Like with determination, if someone showed me evidence that it actually worked the same in both games, I'd be a lot more open to the idea.
yeah thats fair!! theyre two separate stories for a reason, + considering the amount of differing rules in deltarune as well (no monster magic? + the fact dark worlds even seemingly. Exist) for there to be no evidence for a rule being the same… its like youre shooting yourself in the foot. youd have to be Dead Certain they work the same when deltarune and undertale just kind of. dont on a general level
I’m wondering if the fact this is recorded in a literal echo chamber is some kind of creative choice or made because it was the only option. It could be either cause it doesn’t sound bad, just very unique.
On Point 2: I actually do think that Determination works in exactly the same way in Undertale and Deltarune.
-Monsters DO have Determination, albeit very little. Boss Monsters' SOULs persist briefly after death before shattering, and Undyne resists her own death and becomes the Undying in the No Mercy route. She also melts like the Amalgamates when you kill her, proving she has Determination.
-Queen does not say that all Lightners have equal levels of Determination, in fact just the opposite. She says all Lightners "Possess" it, and that one can only make a Dark Fountain if they are "Determined Enough." So Lightners have varying levels of Determination in both Undertale and Deltarune.
-High levels of Determination is stated to grant the ability to change fate by SAVING, and SAVING is something we can do in Deltarune. An example of the game acknowledging the ability is when using the Castle Town SAVE Point after sealing the Chapter 2 Dark Fountain; the game says that if you SAVE, you can never go back to the Cyber World, so the ability to turn back time to change outcomes (undoubtedly by Determination) is diegetic to both games.
-W.D. Gaster's Entry 17 describes Gaster's creation of a Dark Fountain while experimenting with Determination, so making Fountains is a property of Determination in Undertale and Deltarune.
I commented on one of his videos a while back saying he was wrong thinking Flowey and Asriel aren't the same person (they are), he replied to me by completely mis-quoting Asriel in TP then ignored me when I pointed out that he was wrong. :/
😬Big yikes
Omg I cracked the code. THIS WHOLE THING OF RALSEI BEING ASREIL IS JUST LIKE CHARA BEING AN EVIL MURDER PSYCHOPATH! I’ve connected the dots it’s the same fucking phenomenon I swear to god
Hey nice video! I have some stuff to comment on though. Mainly on the existence of darkners as objects, personally I’ve always believed in darkners being a combination of the object and the will of the fountain/of the knight, ((I think connotations theory is the name of the video that goes into detail on that)), and I believe the idea that darkners have knowledge of eachother and histories can be explained by their light world counterparts interacting ((Ex. The laptop being brought to the school)) or their irl relations ((Ex. Solitaire being commonly played on computers, which queen is))
Although this doesn’t explain how they have knowledge of future dark worlds, I feel like there are differing answers to that ((all dark worlds being intrinsically connected, time loop theory, etc)) Additionally in reference to Noelle’s dialogue, I feel that both “it looks like they’re dating” and “it looks like asriel/Toriel” or something, are both equally valid assumptions, although Noelle ignoring Ralsei later on can feed into the idea that he isn’t Asriel, because at a second glance she was like “oh that’s not him”. I think it’s better to provide these as reasonable or more likely alternatives than to flat out day that these debunk an idea, because something like that can be open to interpretation
Besides those minor nitpicks, I think that this is a great debunk! As a fan of a lot of Jaru’s ideas you have thoroughly convinced me that Ralsei most likely isn’t a dustner, as well as the inconsistencies present in several of his videos.
However I do have some notes on the approach? I feel like the tone of the video could lead to some people clicking off ‘thinking’ it’s a hate video because of the way debunking is approached. Gonna stress that practically every point made is extremely valid against the video, but being vitriolic out the gate with calling the theory bullshit ((albeit funny also pls don’t hurt me I love universal mother theory)), can lead people to devalue valid points you make later on because in some Jaru fan’s heads you’d already be branded as a hater and at the very least to an average viewer it can leave a sour taste in their mouth with the idea that you aren’t tackling the point rationally, regardless of if you are or not. Although that’s moreso an issue with fandom and creator worship as a whole than with this video specifically.
Overall though, I really liked the video! You managed to change my mind and give me some tips on theorizing as a theorizer myself! Looking forward to the next part
3:43 asriel is to me not a very surprising inclusion for a possibility; as, independently of jaru's theory, it's a popular idea that ralsei and asriel are connected in some way, and thus worth analysing in depth, despite being a sub-category of another analysed option.
7:01 Yes, there are a lot of ununswered questions about the nature of darkeners and their connections to other darkners. But I think rejecting "darkeners are objects" entirely is a bit premature; as there are theories can explain these things. For example, one theory is that darkeners gain false memories of a retroactive history upon fountain creation; and that things like jevil mentioning queen are "loose ends" that don't have well defined meaning at the time but that future fountains retroactively add on to the history of. The only alternative to "darkeners are objects" i can think of is something like "dark worlds have existed for a long time and fountains are a connection between worlds". but that also has ununswered questions like why and how exactly are darkners connected to objects (have appearance and personality traits based on them, you can move darkners around by moving their lw objects), have those connections existed as long as the object has or only as long as the fountain has, why does the card kingdom dark world actually cease to exists when the fountain is closed when it should have existed before the fountain was open, etc. Rejecting fully one popular idea due to ununswered questions while accepting another seems inconsistent.
19:33 idk, i think the idea of exploring alternative ideas and counterpoints in a theory has value. if a theory only presents one idea that they beleive and ignores any alternatives then i don't know whether they also thought of those alternatives and decided against them or whether they hadn't considered them at all.
22:42 not sure i really understand the critisism of the idea of summarization? should it have been included first before the context of the discussion being summarized? or that it shouldn't be included at all?
23:57 this seems like an incosequential nitpick to me. the prior analysis f the "darkner" possibility assumes "normal darkner based on whatever rules and traits we can establish as likely belonging to other darkners". analysing the idea of "special darkner that has slightly different rules" doesn't really negate that analysis and has value in analysing separately. its technically a subcategory based on the category names but the prior analysis can just be understood as analysis of a distinct subcategory.
25:26 i agree, it's not a good aproach to theorycrafting to dismiss something just because it doesn't answer all the questions. for example, if somebody completely dismissed the idea that darkners are objects because it didn't answer all the questions... :p
Lol at that last point
23:11
This is minute 23 of a 35 minute video that IS PART ONE to an even longer 40 minute part two.
I think this is just the natural state of Deltarune theory content, my friends.
I think ralsei is a tollpa made by Kris cus they missed az but didn’t expect it to work as well as it did that’s why it’s weird around him
29:59 maybe he was saying that bc the bike is on fire?
7:59 the Jack cards is known in other languages as the "Prince"
I haven't finished yet but the Darkners are 100% the objects. Their interactions are likely just the dark world filling in what they experienced as objects. King and Queen met because the laptop was near the card at some point. As for not all objects becoming living beings I'm not sure, but it likely has to do with some info on how the fountain actually creates the world we will find out later.
Another addition, King 100% does NOT know about the roaring and all the details of it and claiming he does is just wrong. Why would king be trying to kill himself and all of the darkners. He literally says he wants a world that darkners rule, proving he doesn't know whats actually going to happen.
Also I agree that Ralsei isn't actually Asriel, but claiming they have no connections besides surface level is untrue. His name is literally an anagram of Asriel, and the game implies through Noelle that they look similar too.
You have no evidence that the laptop was ever taken to the spare classroom, especially because the laptop is New and the unused classroom is implied to have been abandoned for a long time, most likely since Gerson died. If the laptop DID go to the unused classroom at some point, why wouldn't Lancer know about Queen? And furthermore, how would Spamton know about Tenna?
This is purely a thing of opinion, but I think Spade DOES know about the Roaring, even the details (though, even if he didn't know about darkners turning to stone, my point still stands about him knowing about the prophecy, as Jaru is claiming Spade and Queen have NO knowledge of the prophecy). Again, his main motto is essentially "the means justify the end", and if he's willing to hurt his own son in the process of taking down the lightners, I don't see how it's far fetched for him to also value his own life below the annihilation of all lightners.
The names being anagrams IS surface level. To bring up a point from the video I made about the topic, implying that anagrams and pun names are iron clad evidence, that'd mean Toriel is the totorial of Deltarune, just because it's in her name. And we DON'T know what Noelle would've said, both in English and in Japanese, her dialogue is too vague to actually concretely make a connection to Asriel specifically. Again, she never brings it up again or even glances at Ralsei after that, it's likely she was just looking at him in relation to Susie specifically.
I'm not trying to say there's absolutely no parallels between Ralsei and Asriel, I just think the community is overly focused on Asriel, as Ralsei has just as much in common with Toriel and Asgore as he does Asriel. They're all boss monsters, they all look alike, and they all try to be nice. That's it.
@@kookiautumn1710
1. Lancer doesn't have to know Queen because he's baby. He might not even have been born yet. He might have been too young to remember her.
2. But King DIDN'T plan to hurt his son for the roaring. He said he knew that nothing would happen to Lancer, because he's a bouncy pumpkin.
3. Toriel's name is like that because she's the tutorial of undertale, so of course her name will carry over. Just because she's not the tutorial in deltarune doesn't mean her name isn't a pun
Hey, maybe you don’t agree with Jaru’s statements, after all it is true that he didn’t take some things in consideration or that some details are actually kept instead of others just because of Undertale or to make a point about his theory, it’s a very good and constructive thing to point this out. But criticize him on the way he does his videos IS going too far, you said that it was not hate but ‘just for fun’ and while it is well put in some places like the Deltarune quiz, it crosses the line when you say he is too slow or exploring too many ‘unnecessary’ hypotheses, he structures his videos however he wants and if you don’t like that, either skip the parts you don’t care about, or complain about this to him directly, not through a public video. What I’m saying is that in some parts of your video you’re not making fun out of his work (which is indeed fun for everyone, even him), but you are making fun of him, his way of talking, explaining, narrating, entertaining, and that is not morally okay.
Anyway I might have been a bit harsh in my comment but I’m writing all this because I was happy to see a video about why a theory that I like has some holes and therefore would show me why it’s less likely to happen than what Jaru made me think, as I got told in the intro of this video, but instead I could only watch 3/4 of this video because almost half of the criticism is about the person and not his work, and this can hurt, making a video for fun doesn’t make your words painless, so I hope you’ll at least stay true to the last part of your intro and take this criticism into account for the next time you’ll criticize someone’s work, and if you still want to have fun doing it, make it in a way that the person you’re talking about can’t get hurt and instead have fun with you and that the viewers don’t have a negative opinion of anyone and have fun with you too.
Your video made me laugh at times, I hope I’ll still do next time, and even more, because I like how you two present things despite everything I said, your videos could be really really cool, that’s why I hope you’ll understand. Have a great day and I wish you the best.
Also I’ve had a bad day xd so I’m sorry to sound mad like that, at least you have my opinion on the moment but don’t take this as a personal attack, maybe I’m being too serious and overreacting lol, sorry for the trouble I wish you the best
Hey no need to apologize, this was a very nice and well formatted comment. I really appreciate that! I understand a lot of what you're saying here, I spent a lot of time trying to make sure I wasn't too harsh, but at the end of the day I find his theories to be very silly, and I can't really get around that. I also understand that critiquing the structure feels mean, but I feel like it's really important to talk about. My goal was to convey the frustration I felt. Maybe I could have done a better job with that, but I do hope that it's something Jaru takes time to improve.
Also one last time, don't feel too sorry about posting criticism of my content! This was a very nice comment and I would love if I had 100 more like it.
@@shadowhaxor99 Wow thank you a lot, it feels very good to see that you’re taking it this good, and now I clearly see what you mean about what you were saying and I agree with you, I’m so happy that it turned in a nice discussion, I’m now willing to see the end of the video knowing that you’re conscious about everything we’ve said, you’re a good person, continue to have fun on your future works!
Heyo, I'm sorry, but could you maybe talk about Jaru in a little more respectful manner...? (Choice of words and tone? (Sorry again lol))
@13:19-.-
1). I don't see how Ralsei is fluffier, they seemed to be about the same level of fluff. This could be art style limitations, but I don't see any reason to assume he's fluffier based on any of the sprites we've gotten so far.
2). You bring up an argument where Ralsei's horns are more relevant in a little bit. So I'll just leave this here to make it easier to know what to point each number is referring to.
3). Glasses aren't a body, but the sprites of Toriel reading always present her wearing glasses, so he could have inherited this from his mother, but in potentially a stronger form, or there eyesights are exactly as good naturally, but Asriel just decides to always wear his.
4). Every single monster that has entered a dark world so far has had an altered color scheme (Is a little bit subtle in the case of Noelle and Berdly, but Noelle is a bit paler and Berdly Is a bit more cyan than true blue), so it could be that Ralsei It's meant to have the color scheme Asriel would have If he entered the dark world. I imagine the reason why it isn't an off-white wouldn't look very good or have the same "it's brighter now" affect the other color schemes tend to have, and so he opted for pink horns and pink shading. (Also, If Toriel fur is shaded with pink or any other color in chapter 3, I reserve the right to say "I told you so!")
@13:25-.-Fun Fact: Did you know that Asriel's god of hyper death form Is based on some art Toby made on a whim of what an evil tutorial would look like? And since we don't know when Toby drafted the designs for normal Asriel, it is possible that Toby made Asriel a smaller, gender-bent Toriel. This is all pretty weak evidence, but it's more evidence that what you provided for this claim. Yeah, it's a pretty common trope for kids to be essentially clones of their parents, due to how hard it is to keep a family resemblance while still make you them distinct, I'm pretty sure we haven't seen enough characters with parent-child connections to conclude how much Toby would rely on this trope. We still don't know what to Noelle's mom or Dess looks like, and I'm pretty sure the Snowden inn from Undertale Is the only other non Dreemurr family we get to see (and even then, I forget if they're supposed to be sisters or mother and daughter). And unless there's some obscure dialog from Undertale I'm missing, I'm pretty sure that having hair and bigger horns is a confirmed s#xually-dimorphic trait of male goat/boss-monsters, so I really don't see why Asriel couldn't grow up to have long horns like his dad, but to be bold like his mom.
@13:42-.-While he certainly doesn't look like kid Asriel, if instead of using this sprite to represent a character named "Ralsei" Toby instead used it to represent a hypothetical _teenage_ version of Asriel, I would completely buy it and have no problems assuming they were the same character (except for the horns being pink, but I've already explained that in a previous point).
@14:35-.-Literally I've gathered from this point is that Flowey goes from being overly aggressive to rejecting aggression when he turns back into Asriel (Which is heavily implied to be completely temporary in Undertale), while Ralsei starts out being pacifistic to a fault but then learns that some aggression might be necessary. It is interesting how one could argue these two arcs are fundamentally contrasting inversions of each other, I failed to see how this disproves the idea that Ralsei Is incredibly similar Asriel. A character is _not_ synonymous with their arc, A character can stop going through an arc one set arc is complete and yet to still exist, A character can go through multiple arcs, even inverted arcs, within one or more stories, A character can go through completely different arcs in different continuities, and yes, two characters can go through completely different, even inverted arcs while still being _fundamentally_ the same in terms of personality, temperament, and disposition, and for sed similarities but sed different arcs to even be entirely intentional on the part of the author. I frankly think it's ironic how you emphasized how "superficial" the visual similarities between the two characters are, but then you use the absolute most superficial possible comparison in order to disprove them acting similarly. I find it further ironic how you accuse people of thinking "character development is a novel concept" and are giving "slap in the face to all of Undertale's overarching story", thus implying that their media illiterate, because they're able to separate a character from their arc, which implies that you yourself or media illiterate. (Sorry if this segment comes off too aggressively, I found your treating of this absolute nothing burger of an argument as definitive proof, and the subsequent insulting of intelligence of everyone who understands how empty this point is to be offensive. I legitimately feel insulted for not being an idiot.)
@15:21~16:20-.-Take it for granted that Toby wouldn't put it inc#st in this story (because that is a completely reasonable assumption), this would only be an issue if Kris gets with Ralsei, of which there is no evidence confirming. The amount each character's tea heals a character is clearly meant to be reflective of how much affection they have for said character, while Kris tea heals a significantly high amount to Ralsei, while Ralsei tea heals Kris for slightly less than Noelle tea, Implying that Kris sees Ralsei, _at best_ as a pretty good friend, but certainly not romantic material, and the _extreme_ affection Ralsei feels for Kris is one sided (I'm not going to go to in depth on tea-theory, since there are plenty of people who've done it already, and you probably know what already anyway). And keep in mind that Kris only does any flame flirtatious to Ralsei while under our control, so there's very little way to know if Kris would have done it anyway, let alone whether or not they enjoyed it. And since the game is clearly trying to deconstruct the relation between the player and the protagonist, I don't see any reason why Toby wouldn't put in some moments to come off as wholesome and innocent to those who haven't count on to some of the big twists, only to turn out to be creepy and disturbing in retrospect (Especially using a popular ship that involves a character that people have expressed wanting to date).
While Jaru from what I remember clearly thinks Ralsei Is aware of his similarities to Asriel, I still feel that it's worth noting for the general discussion that we don't know how much he is aware of these similarities. It's possible that Ralsei doesn't even know that Asriel exists, or that Kris is Asriel's younger brother, or that Ralsei is aware of how similar he is to Asriel, or how he would feel about said similarities. Though all kinds of directions that could be took in that would result in Ralsei Intentionally pursuing an inc#stu#us or pseudo-inc#stu#us relationship, in at least his own eyes. Especially given how he's already set up as a major enigma, with a lot of subtle weirdness, and a minimum of two confirmed off screen conversation whose contents are unknown.
@16:45-.-This is a legitimately good point, I am pointing this out for the sake of politeness.
[I am done writing this comment. I am announcing this in square brackets because *twice* I had to comment early to fix an issue where a bunch of text would turn red, and all red text would be deleted from the comment when posted, so I had to put a message in square brackets to let people know it wasn't done yet.]
if darkeners aren't their objects whats with kings whole arc in chapter 1 about being abandoned? they're literally in an unused classroom? king dosent word it as "you abandoned our objects" or anything else, he words it as "you abandoned US" because its supposed to tie into the idea that they are objects or at the very least are represented by objects
I mean like im sure there's some explanation but it feels like an unnecessary distinction to me is all, it feels like separating them from their objects and saying that they have a connection rather than them BEING a more refined characterized version of whatever is made up of is just a tad weird lol. wouldn't suprise me though deltarune has some weird lore
Also the literal beginning sequence of chapter two where you have to pick up the stuff and bring them to the closet.....
This is a very compelling point, although I just can't get over the spamton tenna connection. The whole Darkner's as objects lore is... well it's a mess. No matter what angle you look at it from there's holes. Hopefully we get some kind of answer in chapter 3/4
@@shadowhaxor99 I mean considering Stanton is also familiar with jevil which he shouldn't be it might just be the shared connection to gaster if tenna also turns out to be a shadow crystal holder. The only other connections people share with other worlds is ralsei and king and queen but considering queen is based on a computer/laptop she could have been in the school at some point.
The darkners WERE abandoned, objects or not. Ralsei's story about the prophecy talks about a time when Lightners and Darkners lived in harmony and coexisted, and that the separation caused an imbalance in the world. Spade is likely talking about that separation, that inequality between the light world and the dark world, especially because the dark world in chapter 1 has so many parallels to the monsters' plight in undertale.
Pretty obnoxious framing and presentation. But you guys did make some decent points. I'll take whatever keeps the community active.
Not only is the absurd echoing genuinely annoying, but I'm getting the feeling these people think that Jaru is intentionally speaking slowly to waste time, which he isn't. Not to mention you don't need to pitch up someone's voice to speed them up. UA-cam has options to speed up videos and they barely change the pitch of the sound. I use that for *any* video that is over an hour long.
I once watched a video back in 2022 that was like two minutes long titled "you need to slow down this video in order to watch it" or something like that and in the video he was talking really fastly and claimed that by doing this and forcing you to slow down the video speed the video was getting more watch time(this was obviously a joke as I HIGHLY doubt that's actually how watch time works) which could create the misconception that speeding up videos reduces the amount of money people make from them, but even if that were true it's not like anyone in this video or comment section cares enough about Jaru to make that an ethical concern.
Why are Flowey and Ralsei so similar?
They both fill the role of “tutorial character who knows more than they let on (probably so they can still be plot relevant later)”
Why do they know about SAVING/LOADING? They are tutorial characters, and Toby decided to make it part of Flowey’s “knows more than they let on” part.
Hi ShadowVaxor just wanted to inform you that the unlisted video that goes by the same name is still in the Deltarune playlist
Oh thanks for letting me know, that is an old version of this video I put up for testing purposes.
@@shadowhaxor99 anyways besides from that I really enjoyed this video and I would love to see more
Lol these videos are fun. I do hope this video promotes discussion.
7:10 this is such a strange point to me like this should have been cut darkners are hundred percent objects given life by the darkworld.
16:11 It is the player or the player stand in who does the romancing. (Also puts jaru third entity theory in a weird light).
Overall nice video.
Here's a theory, sans is the night and WD gaster is the puppet Master, maybe after the events of deltarune sans teleports him and papyrus to undertale and that's why he has the time travel machine and the photo and why they suddenly just appeared!!! If you think about it, he's the janitor for the school so he could've opened the dark world before Kris and Susie before they got there, and the closet in the library only says that a large person can fit in there, not the there was someone who was actually large🤷
Aight thats silly
I know that Jaru is lowkey annoying, but yall didnt had to spread the whole "it's online so it deserves criticism" shpiel by making a whole video on his theories because they're wrong 😭
It's a game, can yall chill or smth? 🥴
[23:30] NITPICK:
I don't think Jaru invented the concept of a conclusive paragraph, repeating your points is just part of essay writing. It's still a valid criticism, just not a criticism of Jaru, and more a criticism to... academia.
THE ULTIMATE OLD MAN YAOI AND LORE COLLAB
First: I appreciate what you’re doing and understand why. As a Jaru fan I wanted to see what you had to say and he supports people picking apart his theories for the same reason you argued why you should be able to. I agree.
Unfortunately I found it difficult to continue watching as soon as you made the argument that determination in undertale was the opposite of magic and could not exist in one being together without consequence. Monsters clearly have at least a little determination and the distinction is the amount between monsters and humans. The example I have is Undyne, who suffers the same effects as the amalgamates when she needs to use her determination, and it’s extremely unlikely she injected that determination the way Flowey or the amalgamates did.
If none of this seems relevant to Deltarune, it does if you believe Deltarune is a parallel universe to Undertale and determination could very possibly work the same way.
Watching for a moment longer I hear that the saving loading system uses determination in Deltarune like Undertale, but because it functions differently they can’t be the same? I don’t believe we have any evidence to support the idea that Kris can save and load due to determination, and as far as I remember, Jaru has the same view.
I am simply making these statements to offer more perspective, not to cause arguments. This is how I view the games with the information I have, which truthfully includes a majority of Jaru’s content and Undertale. Thank you for your input, but clearly we understand these games very differently, I hope what I have to say has some value to you.
This action will have… unforeseen consequences.
For real tho I hope you two and the entire fandom will be ok.
Same here, I knew I would get pushback but hopefully any negativity is contained within this comment section. It's not my goal to spread negativity.
I don't know who is more dense, you or Jaru, holy fuck how aren't Darkners the objects???
It has to do with how the Darkners have histories and relationships that predate the events of the game, and how certain Darkners know each other from across Dark Worlds. If the dark fountains give objects life and turn them into Darkners, they shouldn't have detailed histories like they do. And if a Dark World ceases to exist once a fountain is closed, there shouldn't be any way for, say, Queen to know the Spade King and vice versa, or for Spamton to know about Mike and Tenna. I saw a great comment a moment ago comparing the Dark Worlds to the Upside-Down from Stranger Things, in that it's a parallel dimension influenced by what happens in the Light World, but the people and objects within it aren't directly tied to it. A dark fountain then allows access from a Dark World to the Light World.
What they meant was that a darkner isn't literally an alive object, like for example a walking fork, but that they exist in their own realm and have a corresponding thing in the light world.
It was pretty confusingly formulated of them.
@@Ammiteur9 Yeah to give a bit of context, we wrote this script over a year ago. Back then, I genuinely didn't think this would be a controversial statement. I found out later, but editing the script would either force us to remove massive segments, or add a tangent that would have derailed the video completely just to cover our bases on this singular point. It seems like I'll have to make a video explaining this lol.
@@shadowhaxor99 relatable. I think a video going in depth about this would be pretty cool.