A few points for comparison, clarification and reference: December 25 was the “birth of the unconquerable sun” Natalis Sol Invictus The number 12 was important for Mithraism and Christianity The Basilica of San Clemente in Rome, built in the 12th c over a church from the 4th c and that over 2nd c mithraeum Pater (father) as highest rank in the priesthood of Mithras Mithras’ divine birth (the virgin birth archetype) was that he was born of a rock, i.e., not sexual union Mithras was seen as a mediator as Christ is intercessor Communion was the Mithraic banquet, consisting of red wine (relating to the slaying of the bull, reminiscent of Aron perhaps) and beef Other connections are less certain. For the purposes of my argument here, the directionality of influence is not as important, nor is any given detail since I don’t argue that Christianity is significant or unique because of the kinds of details often cited.
good video. one problem though, how can you say that if the historical claims that Christianity and all other Abrahamic religions make are wrong, then their authenticity is not endangered? One of the main claims that Abrahamic religions have (maybe the most important one) is that this is a message from god with accurate historical proofs. What I love about comparative mythology and religions studies is that it shows that no, it is not a message from "God", it's just humans making up myths and therefore religions.
Thanks! The theologians I study don’t point to historical claims as a necessary foundation for religion. That’s something I addressed at length in chapter eight of Paradox at Play. Putting value on purely historical claims is something Eckhart doesn’t do - and that’s something that a lot of people have problems believing today. So, I’ve advocated for that as one of the good things about Eckhart. But if someone does base their religion on particular historical claims, then yes that does leave them vulnerable to evidence and scholarship that point in a different direction…
Three Things: Firstly I'd love the sources for Mithraism details you pinned if you have them handy, wikipedia has a few but without details or dating. Secondly, I think what atheists are trying to get at is that the most important Christian claim is the specific historicity of the incarnation. All other accidents of the religion are secondary to God, but who God is is certainly primary. The external practices of the Church, the bread, water baptism, the oil, etc. are all secondary, but they are done because the historical God became a guy and told us to do it. So while Dec 25th, Christmas trees, etc are all less important to trace back than other external practices, the flow of some of those practices needs to be either from Christianity outwards or from the universal unconscious human experience (fasting, prayer, blood sacrifice, etc.). If it is from Mithraism to Christianity, that is, if the miraculous birth was a claim borrowed by the evangelists from outside, it would undermine the very historical claims they were trying to make, and thus invalidate the entire Christian faith. Thirdly, love the channel, always a good morsel to mull over, can't wait until your viewership hockey-sticks and more people get to enjoy these videos.
I really appreciate the kind words!! It makes me happy to see people enjoying the content. Here’s a good resource for starters (I’ll try and add more later since I just have a second): www.researchgate.net/publication/374331109_Parallels_Between_Jesus_and_Mithra_A_Comparative_Study/fulltext/6518554c321ec5513c248b2f/Parallels-Between-Jesus-and-Mithra-A-Comparative-Study.pdf?origin=publication_detail As for the incarnation, I have to admit I was being provocative in an Eckhartian way by talking about all things being secondary to God. I have an article from 2018 on religious tolerance (Eckhart and Zen) that I want to bring to the channel and discuss at some point. In short, my contribution to the discussion over Jesus/Mithras is to invite people to perhaps think about things differently
Probably worth noting from an academic standards perspective, is that this single source you've cited is relatively short, written by an 'image processing expert' - not a an historian - and only contains 6 references itself which isn't ideal. Interesting topic regardless.
Many Christian denominations teach religious exclusivism. That the faith is the one true, unique, wholly original message given directly from God and that there is no other possible path to salvation outside of it..
We do hear a lot of that, though someone like Eckhart may be inclined to ask whether that simply belongs to a particular stage of spiritual progress that is so much more common that it seems like it’s more fundamental than it actually is. Still, Buddhism has a similar breakdown of spiritual levels but lacks the exclusivism even at early stages
We can at least say that people tend to spontaneously create these same kinds of hero stories. I’m thinking of Joesph Campbell’s Hero with a Thousand Faces. As well, most people are attracted to them (e.g., Star Wars). So while I could live without any given archetypal story just as I could live without any one friendship that I have… why would I want to?
IT IS NOT GODLY AND THEY ARE NOT GODLY If they are not according to the covenant of God Yehovah. The covenant of God Yehovah is the covenant of truth and is everlasting. If they are not according to the word of God Yehovah. The word of God Yehovah is truth If they are not according to the law of God Yehovah. The law of God Yehovah is truth If they are not according to the commandments of God Yehovah. The commandments of God Yehovah are truth If they are not according to the ordinances of God Yehovah. The ordinances of God Yehovah are truth. If they are not according to the testimony of God Yehovah. The testimony of God Yehovah is true, sure and trustful. If they are not according to the spirit of God Yehovah. The spirit of God Yehovah is the spirit of truth (word, law, and testimony of God Yehovah) If they are not according to the prophets of God Yehovah. The prophets of God Yehovah are the prophets of truth (word, law, and testimony of God Yehovah) If they are not according to what God Yehovah has spoken. Yehobah is the true God. Yehovah is the God of truth. It is not of the Lord God Yehovah. They are not of the Lord God Yehovah. It is not Godly. They are not Godly It does not matter what it is or who. Leviticus 18:1-3,24-25,30 ASV And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am Jehovah your God. [3] After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do; neither shall ye walk in their statutes. [24] Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out from before you; [25] and the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land vomiteth out her inhabitants. [30] Therefore shall ye keep my charge, that ye practise not any of these abominable customs, which were practised before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am Jehovah your God. Deuteronomy 12:2-4,8,29-32 ASV Ye shall surely destroy all the places wherein the nations that ye shall dispossess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: [3] and ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and burn their Asherim with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods; and ye shall destroy their name out of that place. [4] Ye shall not do so unto Jehovah your God. [8] Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes; [29] When Jehovah thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest in to dispossess them, and thou dispossessest them, and dwellest in their land; [30] take heed to thyself that thou be not ensnared to follow them, after that they are destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How do these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. [31] Thou shalt not do so unto Jehovah thy God: for every abomination to Jehovah, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters do they burn in the fire to their gods. [32] What thing soever I command you, that shall ye observe to do: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Jeremiah 23:18,35-37 ASV For who hath stood in the council of Jehovah, that he should perceive and hear his word? who hath marked my word, and heard it? [35] Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbor, and every one to his brother, What hath Jehovah answered? and, What hath Jehovah spoken? [36] And the burden of Jehovah shall ye mention no more: for every man's own word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of Jehovah of hosts our God. [37] Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath Jehovah answered thee? and, What hath Jehovah spoken? Deuteronomy 13:1-5 ASV If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give thee a sign or a wonder, [2] and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; [3] thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams: for Jehovah your God proveth you, to know whether ye love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul. [4] Ye shall walk after Jehovah your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. [5] And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he hath spoken rebellion against Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which Jehovah thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ASV But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. [21] And if thou say in thy heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken? [22] when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him. Psalm 4:3-5 ASV But know that Jehovah hath set apart for himself him that is godly: Jehovah will hear when I call unto him. [4] Stand in awe, and sin not: Commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah [5] Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, And put your trust in Jehovah. Psalm 119:9,11 ASV Wherewith shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to thy word. [11] Thy word have I laid up in my heart, That I might not sin against thee. Psalm 40:8 ASV I delight to do thy will, O my God; Yea, thy law is within my heart.
A few points for comparison, clarification and reference:
December 25 was the “birth of the unconquerable sun” Natalis Sol Invictus
The number 12 was important for Mithraism and Christianity
The Basilica of San Clemente in Rome, built in the 12th c over a church from the 4th c and that over 2nd c mithraeum
Pater (father) as highest rank in the priesthood of Mithras
Mithras’ divine birth (the virgin birth archetype) was that he was born of a rock, i.e., not sexual union
Mithras was seen as a mediator as Christ is intercessor
Communion was the Mithraic banquet, consisting of red wine (relating to the slaying of the bull, reminiscent of Aron perhaps) and beef
Other connections are less certain. For the purposes of my argument here, the directionality of influence is not as important, nor is any given detail since I don’t argue that Christianity is significant or unique because of the kinds of details often cited.
good video. one problem though, how can you say that if the historical claims that Christianity and all other Abrahamic religions make are wrong, then their authenticity is not endangered? One of the main claims that Abrahamic religions have (maybe the most important one) is that this is a message from god with accurate historical proofs. What I love about comparative mythology and religions studies is that it shows that no, it is not a message from "God", it's just humans making up myths and therefore religions.
Thanks! The theologians I study don’t point to historical claims as a necessary foundation for religion. That’s something I addressed at length in chapter eight of Paradox at Play. Putting value on purely historical claims is something Eckhart doesn’t do - and that’s something that a lot of people have problems believing today. So, I’ve advocated for that as one of the good things about Eckhart. But if someone does base their religion on particular historical claims, then yes that does leave them vulnerable to evidence and scholarship that point in a different direction…
@@goodtothinkwith historical claims are not a necessary foundation for religions, but they are necessary foundation for Abrahimic religions
Wow now i understand the peigenism in christianety fully.
You gone astray.
Three Things: Firstly I'd love the sources for Mithraism details you pinned if you have them handy, wikipedia has a few but without details or dating.
Secondly, I think what atheists are trying to get at is that the most important Christian claim is the specific historicity of the incarnation. All other accidents of the religion are secondary to God, but who God is is certainly primary. The external practices of the Church, the bread, water baptism, the oil, etc. are all secondary, but they are done because the historical God became a guy and told us to do it. So while Dec 25th, Christmas trees, etc are all less important to trace back than other external practices, the flow of some of those practices needs to be either from Christianity outwards or from the universal unconscious human experience (fasting, prayer, blood sacrifice, etc.). If it is from Mithraism to Christianity, that is, if the miraculous birth was a claim borrowed by the evangelists from outside, it would undermine the very historical claims they were trying to make, and thus invalidate the entire Christian faith.
Thirdly, love the channel, always a good morsel to mull over, can't wait until your viewership hockey-sticks and more people get to enjoy these videos.
I really appreciate the kind words!! It makes me happy to see people enjoying the content.
Here’s a good resource for starters (I’ll try and add more later since I just have a second): www.researchgate.net/publication/374331109_Parallels_Between_Jesus_and_Mithra_A_Comparative_Study/fulltext/6518554c321ec5513c248b2f/Parallels-Between-Jesus-and-Mithra-A-Comparative-Study.pdf?origin=publication_detail
As for the incarnation, I have to admit I was being provocative in an Eckhartian way by talking about all things being secondary to God. I have an article from 2018 on religious tolerance (Eckhart and Zen) that I want to bring to the channel and discuss at some point. In short, my contribution to the discussion over Jesus/Mithras is to invite people to perhaps think about things differently
Probably worth noting from an academic standards perspective, is that this single source you've cited is relatively short, written by an 'image processing expert' - not a an historian - and only contains 6 references itself which isn't ideal. Interesting topic regardless.
Many Christian denominations teach religious exclusivism. That the faith is the one true, unique, wholly original message given directly from God and that there is no other possible path to salvation outside of it..
We do hear a lot of that, though someone like Eckhart may be inclined to ask whether that simply belongs to a particular stage of spiritual progress that is so much more common that it seems like it’s more fundamental than it actually is. Still, Buddhism has a similar breakdown of spiritual levels but lacks the exclusivism even at early stages
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
I really appreciate the support!
mithra was born from a rock
The obvious higher level principle here is that the IDEA of Jesus is not original. Same principle with Christianity. We don't need either.
We can at least say that people tend to spontaneously create these same kinds of hero stories. I’m thinking of Joesph Campbell’s Hero with a Thousand Faces. As well, most people are attracted to them (e.g., Star Wars). So while I could live without any given archetypal story just as I could live without any one friendship that I have… why would I want to?
IT IS NOT GODLY AND THEY ARE NOT GODLY
If they are not according to the covenant of God Yehovah. The covenant of God Yehovah is the covenant of truth and is everlasting.
If they are not according to the word of God Yehovah. The word of God Yehovah is truth
If they are not according to the law of God Yehovah. The law of God Yehovah is truth
If they are not according to the commandments of God Yehovah. The commandments of God Yehovah are truth
If they are not according to the ordinances of God Yehovah. The ordinances of God Yehovah are truth.
If they are not according to the testimony of God Yehovah. The testimony of God Yehovah is true, sure and trustful.
If they are not according to the spirit of God Yehovah. The spirit of God Yehovah is the spirit of truth (word, law, and testimony of God Yehovah)
If they are not according to the prophets of God Yehovah. The prophets of God Yehovah are the prophets of truth (word, law, and testimony of God Yehovah)
If they are not according to what God Yehovah has spoken. Yehobah is the true God. Yehovah is the God of truth.
It is not of the Lord God Yehovah.
They are not of the Lord God Yehovah.
It is not Godly.
They are not Godly
It does not matter what it is or who.
Leviticus 18:1-3,24-25,30 ASV
And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am Jehovah your God. [3] After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do; neither shall ye walk in their statutes. [24] Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out from before you; [25] and the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land vomiteth out her inhabitants. [30] Therefore shall ye keep my charge, that ye practise not any of these abominable customs, which were practised before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am Jehovah your God.
Deuteronomy 12:2-4,8,29-32 ASV
Ye shall surely destroy all the places wherein the nations that ye shall dispossess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: [3] and ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and burn their Asherim with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods; and ye shall destroy their name out of that place. [4] Ye shall not do so unto Jehovah your God. [8] Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes; [29] When Jehovah thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest in to dispossess them, and thou dispossessest them, and dwellest in their land; [30] take heed to thyself that thou be not ensnared to follow them, after that they are destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How do these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. [31] Thou shalt not do so unto Jehovah thy God: for every abomination to Jehovah, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters do they burn in the fire to their gods. [32] What thing soever I command you, that shall ye observe to do: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Jeremiah 23:18,35-37 ASV
For who hath stood in the council of Jehovah, that he should perceive and hear his word? who hath marked my word, and heard it? [35] Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbor, and every one to his brother, What hath Jehovah answered? and, What hath Jehovah spoken? [36] And the burden of Jehovah shall ye mention no more: for every man's own word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of Jehovah of hosts our God. [37] Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath Jehovah answered thee? and, What hath Jehovah spoken?
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 ASV
If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give thee a sign or a wonder, [2] and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; [3] thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams: for Jehovah your God proveth you, to know whether ye love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul. [4] Ye shall walk after Jehovah your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. [5] And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he hath spoken rebellion against Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which Jehovah thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ASV
But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. [21] And if thou say in thy heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken? [22] when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Psalm 4:3-5 ASV
But know that Jehovah hath set apart for himself him that is godly: Jehovah will hear when I call unto him. [4] Stand in awe, and sin not: Commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah [5] Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, And put your trust in Jehovah.
Psalm 119:9,11 ASV
Wherewith shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to thy word. [11] Thy word have I laid up in my heart, That I might not sin against thee.
Psalm 40:8 ASV
I delight to do thy will, O my God; Yea, thy law is within my heart.
Hahahaha jokers