Karl,....First off, Mike W. is not a Christian. He is a Godless man of the Godless world pretending to be a Christian. I don't know what he stated on this topic, but he is a false teacher and can only lead you farther astray than you already are.
This is a reported quote from Chrysostom: ‘Greet Andronicus and Junia . . . distinguished among the apostles.’ To be apostles is a great thing, but to be distinguished among them-consider what an extraordinary accolade that is! They were distinguished because of their works and because of their upright deeds. Indeed, how great was the wisdom of this woman that she was thought worthy of being called an apostle!’ Erasmus in the Greek Authoritative Text continued this female name Junia, it wasn’t until Martin Luther translated the Bible where we see Junia go to Junias. Now- I’ve only began my own research, there are quotes by Chrysostom in direct opposition to what you’ve said here. If you know exactly where you’re reading this information from, I would love to know. Honestly, as a woman, I’ve already accepted what we believe about women leaders in church, but if she was an apostle or if there were women pastors, I’m ready to follow the exact truth of the matter. Either way, the truth is the truth, and that’s all I want to follow.
I’d recommend Eldon Epps book on Junia. He does an amazing analysis of it. The Greek New Testament that many use to translate with had it as Junias until 1998 when they changed it to Junia. Lots of good analysis in a short book.
Love and agree with your point on Junia but we should be careful as in Acts 14:14 Barnabas is listed as an apostle along with Paul. The word simply means 'sent one' as I'm sure you know. I like to go with, there were only 12 capital 'A' Apostles (or more accurately 13 with Judas being disqualified). Paul is accepted with most on this because he was literally commissioned by the risen Jesus. However Barnabas and possibly also Timothy and Titus were considered 'sent ones' or small 'a' apostles. Anyway, great word here on the Junia question.
My comment here is a bit of a random tangent, but it relates to frequent conflation of the two sense of ‘apostle’ we find in the New Testament. There’s actually a decent argument that the apostle John who wrote the Gospel according to John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and very possibly Revelation was from Judea and an apostle in the sense of Paul and not John the son of Zebedee, the member of the Twelve from Galilee. Basically, the case is built on hints from the text of the Gospel itself (and the absence of any identification of the author as the son of Zebedee), like its focus on Jesus’s ministry in Judea, the absence of events like the transfiguration which the sons of Zebedee were present at, the insinuation in John 18 that the author was known to the high priest, as well as evidence from the church fathers. The church fathers, from whom we have our attestations that the men who wrote the Gospels were named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (though it’s quite possible the Gospels were always titled, the names of the authors never appear in the text itself), tell us John wrote his Gospel in Ephesus; a second century bishop in Ephesus, Polycrates, writing less than a century after John is believed to have been written, identifies the disciple whom Jesus loved who reclined against Jesus at the last supper as having been a priest in the temple in Jerusalem, not a fisherman from Galilee; none of the 2nd century church fathers from Asia Minor, the region where Ephesus lies, identify the son of Zebedee as the author of the Gospel, and one of the earliest writers from this region, Papias of Hierapolis, appears to tell us that there were two Johns, and that both the sons of Zebedee were martyred. It’s not a definitive case-sources from outside Asia Minor do identify the author of the Gospel as the son of Zebedee, but they also conflate other folks with the same name, e.g. Philipp the apostle and Philipp the deacon. (The argument is most extensively presented by Richard Bauckham in his book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony.)
There are four classes of Apostles. Class 1: Jesus Heb 3:1 Class 2: 12 Apostles of the Lamb Rev 21:14 - Matthias replaced Judas; qualification: had to be an eyewitness of Jesus’ ministry- Acts 1:15-23 Class 3: Paul, Barnabas and any other NT apostles were in this class - contributed to foundational doctrine of the NT church Eph 2:20 Class 4: any other person called to the office as one of the five fold ministries Eph 4:11. This group includes modern day apostles
Now that is worthy a discussion. Jesus appointed 12 disciples to be Apostles, one of them being Judas. Before Pentecost Peter felt that his seat needed to be filled. They drew lots an Matthias became the 13th Apostle. Yet later in Acts we see Jesus meeting Saul of Tarsus and turning him completely around. I personally believe he was the one Jesus chose to fill the seat of Judas. However, when writing about the Apostles of Scripture I will capitalize the A for the 11 Jesus chose. For Paul, even though I believe Jesus chose him, I use a small a, apostle. Bringing that down to today, there are NO apostles with the same appointment Jesus gave the 12. An apostle means one who is sent, and even during the first century was used to mean missionary or church planter, with no special calling except for Paul.
Let alone pointing to the mention of Barnabas as an apostle in the book of Acts, interesting that Paul explicitly makes a distinction between “the twelve” and “the apostles” in 1 Corinthians 15:5-7… but I suppose if you want to suit your own narrative that is in direct opposition to the vast majority of professional scholars and historians that study the early church for a living and almost all agree that Julia was a female apostle (as John Chrysostom and other early church fathers also wrote), I suppose it makes sense to limit the term “apostles” to just mean “the twelve”.
It seems reasonable to assume that if ever there were a female apostle, it would likely have been Mary Magdalene. But Scripture never lists her as one. A godly and insightful woman - yes. But not an apostle.
“’Greet Andronicus and Junia . . . distinguished among the apostles’…how great was the wisdom of this **woman** that she was thought worthy of being called an apostle!” - Chrysostom, In epistulam ad Romanos 31.2; PG:60.669-70 These ladies need to do their due diligence before speaking.
LOL, sorry, notable among the apostles, just means that they had a good reputation with the apostles, it doesn't mean that EITHER was an apostle, just that they were notable. It's like a friend of mine that worked at a large corporation and one of the big wigs, saw her walking down a hallway and says, your making quite a name for yourself among those in the hall of power. He wasn't saying SHE was one of those in the halls of power, just that she was notable amongst them, and was building a reputation with them. After this, she was in the running for a VP slot.
HC,....Whoever this false teacher you mention is, he is 100% wrong. All women are to be in silence about the things of God, period! It is 100% impossible for a woman to be an apostle as that is a 100% violation of Gods word. All women are to be 100% silent about the things of God.
This is a great topic for discussion! I was just learning about how Junia was intentionally changed in translation to Junius in "The Making of Biblical Womanhood" by Beth Allison Barr in Ch. 2, on Audible it's at timestamp 59:59. She historically tracks the change in translation.
Do you understand the severity of how this deceptive suggestion could potentially undermind the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures? If one suspects any passage of scripture to be untrue, then another could suspect an area of scripture to be true that supports his agenda as well. Altimately, it eventually concluding that the bible is false. Only an unsaved soul and unregenrate heart will entertain such demoninc nonsense.
@Vincenzo-wn1or I lost a lot of my respect for Martin Luther when I found out that he said : "If women become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth. That is what they are there for." 😲 Ummmm... as a Mama myself, that is such a horrible misogynistic thing to say to a woman?! I can not imagine if my husband said that to me, especially during labor?! It's even more offensive to hear this from a man claiming to represent the heart of God?! I do not believe Jesus would ever say that to a woman!
“And indeed to be apostles at all is a great thing. But to be even amongst these of note, just consider what a great encomium this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. *Oh! How great is the devotion of this woman, that she should even be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!* But even here he does not stop…For after glory such as his in kind and degree, he sets others before himself, and does not hide from us the fact of his coming after them, nor ashamed of confessing this” (Chrysostom, The Homilies of S. John Chrysostom on the Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Romans)
The only way you can make out that Junia wasn't a female apostle is if you know for sure that apostles can't be women and then distort the text to say this. She definitely was a woman and the grammatical structure indicates that she was an apostle.
If you are interested in finding out why I come out so strongly get a book called "the blue parakeet" and search through what has really gone on in the church. The Bible translators went though a period of basically distorting the truth (ok, they were lying to us). Things in the more recent translations have gonr back to how they were a couple hundred years ago no and the misinformation about the person being male has been corrected. There are still loads of bibles out there with this infortunate episode in them.
Having a female Apostle will go against what Paul taught against women teaching doctrine since what an Apostle says will have that quality. Women arr forbidden from teaching not on their ability but because Eve sinned. That is why the commandment from Paul in this regard. So female Apostles will be against Scripture.
One could make a case for the Samaritan woman at the well, who as a consequence of what transpired resulted in many coming to hear him. Just in Romans Paul states Junia but also Julia, Mary, Persis, Phoebe, Prisca, Typhaena and Tryphosa and of women identified as the mother of Rufus, and the sister of Nereus.
I found this video through Google because I am reading the fictional novel “The Book Woman of Troublesome Creek” and it writes that Junia was the only female apostle. Thanks ladies for the clarification. I knew it was a wrong historical reference.
Very much so… I was shocked at the lack of scholarship used or quoted. They presented a very simplistic view of the topic without going into the rich scholarship that has been done. And Alisa misquoted Chrysostom.
Well I believe based off scripture that church leadership is primarily male But we know that God can work through any humble yielded vessel to him for his glory and no one else’s the gifts of the spirit are not exactly gender-based and I have personally seen and grew up in churches that definitely had order an had both men and women who functioned in the gifts of God and people and families got the help and healing. They needed and women who served in leadership roles under proper male Godly leadership and even the late Dr, Walter Martin who Agreed on Reformed theology was not completely opposed to having women occupying areas of the teaching ministry within the church as long as they were under a very careful supervision! So that’s my position and opinion an a Christian man and it really is gonna change.
Sorry, you are 100% incorrect and have exposed that you do not understand the Bible. A woman is never allowed to preach nor teach the word of God. They are to be in silence, Period!
Share with the public scriptural references that support your thought. Obviously, you have never read the bible... just a transporter of third-party heresy.
As laypeople to other women and children, to be sure! But as elders, pastors, and/or overseers, no. The qualifications to be elders, pastors, and/or overseers are explicitly clear in I Tim. 3 and Titus 1:5-8. That should be sufficient to put this particular debate to bed.
@HonestCitizen-we1mh Yes, I believe that God's design for men are to be the leader of the church they are the overseers. And for women God also bestows them to preach the Gospel but should not exceed of becoming a pastor of the church
Sorry when you look at the original Greek and the first father of early church writings Junia is a female name St. John chrystom early father of the church addressed her as a female you must do a deep study on that
I left a similar comment on the video where this discussion originally appeared two years ago, but I will repeat the content of my comment here: -- Ms. Childers is incorrect. John Chrysostom clearly stated that Junia was a woman, not a man. I have to think she is not actually very knowledgeable on this topic to have made this mistake as the Chrysostom quote is extremely well-known and often discussed in the literature on Junia. (Some people have told me they believe Ms. Childers misspoke, but it is strange that she would turn this clip into its own video if she misspoke.) -- No patristic commentator is known to have definitively called the Junia of Rom 16:7 a man. Epiphanius and Origen likely never commented on her; Ambrosiaster, Rufinus, Chrysostom, Jerome, Theodoret, and the anonymous commentary ("Constantius the Tractator") all seemed to use a feminine form of the name. -- Some lists of disciples that began circulating from the fifth century or so onwards would sometimes call Junia, Priscilla, or Euodia (Phil 4:2) a man. One of these lists is sometimes mistakenly attributed to Epiphanius even though he most certainly did not write it. Given the other historical errors on these lists, this is not a strong source. -- Even if a patristic commentator did call her a man --- so what? There are many other such cases in church history where a commentator gave a "gender minority report" of sorts, yet these are almost never seriously considered. See Clement's comments on the Syzygus of Phil 4:3, for example, which dates to the first century (!). -- Ms. Williams is also incorrect. It is not "appropriate" to footnote a gender alternative based on a hypothetical masculine that is not known to have ever existed. By that logic, we should footnote Andronicus to note that the name could be feminine, because second-declension feminine names also existed in Greek. The only reason this name continues to be footnoted as possibly masculine is ignorance or ideology. It's okay to make mistakes, and it is okay to disagree with feminist / egalitarian usage of Rom 16:7, but it is not okay to spread obviously incorrect information about what the historical record on Junia says.
So many sexists in these comments, Lord have mercy. In the last days i will pour out my spirit, your son’s and DAUGHTERS will prophecy. Apostle just means sent 1. Keep posting these great videos sis 👏🏽
WAR,....The only ones who are sexist are women. All women are man haters and God haters. This is why God uses women to represent the devil and satan. This is also why God has forbidden women to speak about the things of God and must remain in silence. You have shown yourself to be totally blind, lost, and deceived. As to the scripture you have totally perverted, that verse is referring to the day of Pentecost when God poured out his spirit on ALL FLESH. It was only for this special day to confirm Gods new covenant. The Bible is 100% clear, all women are to be in silence about the things of God, Period!
What sad is there are many unlearned and unsaved carnal women who desire to be in control trying to interpret the Holy Scriptures, but totally and completely out of context, like yourself. The scripture you referenced is in reference to the upper room Pentecost prophacy only.
@ *Testifydesignfactory* There are plenty *”unlearned and carnal”* men in Christianity too. They are in the seat of authority a lot more than women. 🇨🇦
Can you also do a response on Colossians 4:15? Do you think Nympha is a woman or a man in that passage? KJV says Nymphas is a man NASB says Nympha is a female. And it would be really weird for Paul to trust a woman to host a church at her house and than have to be quiet at church in her house.
That's absolutely correct. What bothers me, however, is how many translate Romans 16:1 saying Phoebe was a servant. The Greek word for "servant" here is "diakonos" which is where we get our word for deacon. I'm not saying she was an apostle, but I am saying she was a deacon of the church, recognized by Paul who was an apostle. I find it very degrading that people and translations would take that Greek word and try to make it merely servant. That's like taking the word "dynamis" In Acts 1:8 and saying it means strength, when it not only means power, but is were we get our word for "dynamite."
In my denomination, the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA), which is a bit of a purple elephant on the women’s ordination question, the vast majority of our dioceses do ordain women as deacons as a result of this passage and early church evidence that seems to corroborate that διακονος does indeed mean ‘deacon’ rather than merely ‘servant’ in Romans 16. Anglicans in general retain the tri-fold office of bishop/overseer, priest/presbyter/elder, and deacon that had emerged by the late 2nd century (and possibly much earlier), though where women fit into that scheme is a matter of debate among us. The Episcopal Church USA (TEC) has women serving at every level, and is rather intolerant of anyone who disagrees with them. When the ACNA formed as a result of the merger of dioceses that began as missions to the United States planted by Anglicans in Africa (and elsewhere in the global south) as well as some dioceses of TEC that had significant disagreement with it, it was agreed that only men would be eligible to be bishops, but that the bishop of each diocese would have the final authority in interpreting scripture on the question of ordaining women to the priesthood or diaconate in his diocese. As a result, about 40% of the dioceses ordain women to the priesthood as a result of their reading of the Junia question, a small minority ordain women to neither the priesthood nor the diaconate, and the plurality ordain women to the diaconate but not to the priesthood. Personally, I have been convinced that women served as deacons in the same sense as men in the New Testament era church, but have not been convinced that women served as priests/presbyters/elders, so I belong to a diocese that reflects that understanding.
@@augustinian2018 It is my understanding that the first deacons were those 7 mentioned in Acts 6, but upon research there seems to be some dispute. Some say they were deacons, some say they may have been deacons and possibly later became elders, but there use of Scripture is self-defeating. I think you've made a wise choice, but keep and open heart to the will of God.
RASA,.....Phoebe was absolutely not a deacon, that would violate the whole word of God. She was a servant just as the Bible states she was. You are in error because you do not understand the scriptures.
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 I understand the Scriptures, and if you look at YOUR Bible where it translates this word as "servant" there's a great chance there's a footnote that says "deacon" because that's what the word "diakonos" means. I really wish people would stop using Satan's tools to divide the Body of Christ. You want to discount Phoebe from being a deacon because she's a woman. Other than that one instance in 1st Timothy, show me where they cannot hold positions of leadership. I recently heard a pastor say that the judge Deborah was the first prophet to lead Israel. He was wrong. Moses was also a prophet and he led Israel many years before Deborah came on the scene. What is remarkable about Deborah is she told Barak to go out and defeat their enemy. He said he would only go if she went with him. She then said that because he put this condition on this he would not be attributed the victory, but a woman, and so it was.
The video is centred on the OFFICE of apostle. And I support its conclusions. Another office in scripture is the position of church elder - and also deacon. These are not gifts - they are offices with a whole host of eligibility requirements. The original apostles - those who occupied the OFFICE of apostle - had to be men because they had to be teacher/pastors as part of the initial spread of the gospel. But why do men need to occupy guardianship teaching roles (eldership)? See my PS at the end. While the office of apostle will only be occupied by twelve people there is also THE GIFT of apostleship. 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 lists the GIFT of apostleship - as distinct from the office. Those with the gift of apostleship are what some call small a apostles. 1 Corinthians 12:31 says that we should desire the greater gifts - the greater gifts being the first listed in verse 28 - apostle and prophet. The fact that we are told to DESIRE the greater gifts tells us a lot - it means that these gifts can be spiritually imparted to people. Which then leads to the question - what are these gifts if they can be spiritually imparted? I put it to you that they are graces which are states of heart. Below are some of the listed gifts and my attempt to describe their heart: pastor/teacher - sensitivity to people’s need for a Shepherd - expressed in both explaining and modelling the truth to people. evangelist - compassion for people that leads to competence in sharing the gospel in particular contexts (it might be standing on stage in front of a crowd or being able to share the gospel one to one with particular effectiveness). The evangelist engages in contexts which MAY see them face hostility. prophet - seeing both what others are and should become - having the courage to engage with others even when this will mean rejection - paying a price. All authentic prophets face rejection. apostle - the heart of the apostle is “you sleep in my bed instead of me”. And rejoicing that one is considered worthy of suffering disgrace for the name. The apostle is totally devoted even in suffering - considering his opportunity to serve God a total privilege. But doesn’t apostleship have to do with church planting? Yes - consider that the REASON the apostle is strategic - able to help the church to multiply - is because he or she is willing to embrace plans for growing the church which involve his or her own role diminishing - this is what all Christ figures are like - they sacrifice themselves so that others might be transformed/redeemed. The American church and the first world church will not begin to grow again until this immutable truth of Christianity - that redemption only happens in death - is embraced again. The gift of apostleship has nothing to do with big crowds, big book sales and frequent flyer points - quite the opposite. I don't see any barrier to women having the GIFT of apostleship. I look forward to seeing God raise up women whose sacrificial service to men sees them position men in contexts in which many burdens of church planting are taken care of for them - logistics, financial, property choice, technology, foundational teaching (systematic theology - not pastoral theology which involves balancing questions relating to people and principle - more on that in my PS at the bottom), social media etc - the number of ways in which gifted people can make church planting successful is endless. The idea of apostle being the one who pours themselves out in service fits in with the bible passage about the greatest in the kingdom of God being the servant of all (Matthew 20:20-28). Jesus doesn't speak as if the greatest in the kingdom must be men! Apostles aren't necessarily great pastors or evangelists - nor necessarily prophets (however the person whose teaching is systematic tends to be prophetic - they tend to be able to show how God relates to people and the world). PS Why do those in guardianship teaching roles (elders) need to be men? It's not the central thrust of this video but let me divert to explain the HEART OF GOD behind men being guardians of doctrine in the church. We see in 1 Timothy 2 that the reason why Paul says women cannot have teaching authority over men is because the woman is deceived. What on earth can that mean? How can Paul use the fact that Eve is the one deceived as an argument for why ALL women are more prone to spiritual deception - when Adam and Eve are each made perfect by God? It has to be because of different ORIENTATION. My conclusions from looking across scripture about differing orientations (Ephesians 5, 1 Peter 3, 1 Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 11, Ephesians 6:4, etc) is that while men and women both care about people and principle - men care about both in the name of principle - and women care about both in the name of their concern for the welfare of people. So the last question a man asks is "how does this affect principle?" and a woman "how does this affect people?" This is why men are suited to being responsible in contexts in which issues of principle and people are weighed - because their orientation ensures that the truth is not altered for people - and that if the truth is lost - it ends up being re-established (if men are being obedient). This same need for weighing issues of people and principle exists in the home. The different abilities of men and women lead to the somewhat bizarre situation where a woman can be President of the United States completely effectively - and in situations in which division is seated more in character failure than principle she will be more effective than a man (because women can weigh issues relating to principle and people that aren't spiritual as well as men - such as for example whether to best help people by direct aid or by cutting taxes) and yet she isn't suited to running the local church down the road with forty people. But there are plenty of situations in which men aren't suited to doing a job with even one person - like for example being a mother (which is about a whole lot more than biology - more than pregnancy and breast feeding). Men and women then are EACH leaders in something - the only reason why men must be leaders in the home and in guardianship of the truth in the church is because unless men's leadership PRECEDES women's leadership in these contexts it finds no place at all (which is why churches led by women fail - because men rightly sense that there is no place for them in such churches).
PB,.....First off, everything you have stated is 100% unbiblical nonsense. Second, you are not a Christian, you are a Godless man of the Godless world. Third, you are a perfect example of why the entire church is 100% apostate from God and Biblical truth. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!
I really appreciated your points and think they are valid but I seem to be odd for a woman as I value principle over people, don't think I am the norm though. I would also add that I too believe men should hold roles in the church that are in leadership, a woman in a leadership role should not be the most senior position in the church for a few reasons in my opinion: 1. Men respect men and need male accountability. 2. It undermines a man's role as leader of his family if he is subject to a female spiritual leader ( this is not to say a female speaker, prophet or teacher can't influence him but he should not be accountable to her) 3. Men are natural protectors and that does not change in a church environment, therefore, men are most suited to protective positions in the church. Lastly, the model for women having close relationships with women and men with men for purposes of discipleship is a model that protects marriages and works really well!
@@jessiesheldon-huffey1824 Hi Jessie, Thanks for your expressing your appreciation. It takes time to write these things! I have read your reasons for believing in male leadership in particular contexts - however I share below why I think they fall short of being biblical reasons (reasons that are provable from the bible). 1. "Men respect men and need male accountability". I am a man and I believe that most men greatly respect women - so that isn't in my view a reason. And I don't think that the statement "men need male accountability" is complete on its own - I explained in my post that if I was answerable to a woman who was President of the United States the woman would be perfectly capable of ensuring that I was accountable in that role. The ONLY reason why men would need male accountability would be if there was some reason why women weren't in a particular context gifted to hold men to account. (I therefore point you to the differences I attempted to explain between men and women when it comes to SPIRITUAL discernment). 2. "It undermines a man's role as leader of his family if he is subject to a female spiritual leader". I don't disagree with you - but why does it? It matters very much why it does. It doesn't undermine a man only because the very idea of a woman leading undermines a man - again there has to be key male vs female difference for that to be an appropriate thing to say (anyone saying it without having particular sex differences in mind is sexist). 3. "Men are natural protectors and that does not change in a church environment, therefore, men are most suited to protective positions in the church." My argument is that men are natural protectors of principle when issues that involve weighing matters affecting both people and principle are at stake. And my argument is that women are natural protectors of people - that they are deliberately oriented by God when it comes to SPIRITUAL matters to favour people over principle. Finally you said: "Lastly, the model for women having close relationships with women and men with men for purposes of discipleship is a model that protects marriages and works really well!" I have been thinking about this lately - I am changing my beliefs here. Let me make a comparison to explain my view. Are you familiar with purity culture? I don't know much about it but my impression is that alongside making commitments to God to obey his word in respect of sex it also involves giving focus to particular rules in the hope of keeping people sexually pure. One rule which would definitely work is if men and women never laid eyes on each other. I am exaggerating to make a point here - to illustrate that we shouldn't make up rules which are an expression of our believing in LAWS to keep people righteous - when we should instead believing in faith (which gives us access to God's grace). When we instead put faith in inappropriate rules there can be negative consequences we don't expect - for example single women and single men in the church might never be able to engage with people of the opposite sex concerning matters of ministry - that's pretty unfair on those people - if the church is the thing to which they have chosen to devote themselves. The focus therefore needs to be on men and women being TRULY transformed - through faith in God - not faith in rules (legalism). I found your comment about yourself interesting - that you believe that when it comes to considering SPIRITUAL issues affecting both people and principle - that you are inclined to favour principle over people. I wish I knew you better Jessie - because then I might be able to decide - to make comment on how you come across to me. Whatever you conclude about yourself you will like the rest of us be required to decide what 1 Corinthians 11 is about when it says the following (vv7-9): For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. I have concluded that these verses strengthen the idea that men are oriented differently to women due to each having a different purpose in being made by God.
I'm curious if anyone has sources on something. Does every time the Bible uses the word "apostles" is it actually talking about the twelve? It seems in my memory that the answer is actually no, -that there are times that the Bible uses the term to refer to people who were not among the twelve. I think Paul calls himself an apostle at one point, and he wasn't the one selected to replace Judas (that was Matthias). This is significant because a certain passage that calls James the Brother of Jesus an apostle, which Catholics argue is the Son of Alphaeus, because there are only two James who were among the 12: Son of Zebedee, and Son of Alphaeus. Since neither James the Son of Alphaeus nor James the Son of Zebedee are James the Son of Joseph, it is thus argued that James was not Jesus' brother (which the Gospels explicitly say multiple times), but rather a distant relative like a cousin. But if the term "Apostle" could be used of somebody who is not of the twelve, then James the brother of Jesus would not have to be either James the Son of Alphaeus nor James the Son of Zebedee, -thus making it likely that he could be James the Son of Joseph and Mary, or James the blood brother of Jesus. If Paul can count as an apostle, -although he was not one of the original twelve nor the replacement of Judas, then why can't James the Just, the brother of Jesus and first bishop of the Church in Jerusalem, who made the final decree at the Council of Jerusalem, one of the certain martyrs of the faith, and who is attested as one of the first eye-witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus, -why can he not be counted an apostle also? His credentials for apostleship are far higher than Paul's.
I think you hit the nail on the head-the use of the word ‘apostle’ in the New Testament (and other early Christian literature) does not restrict the use of the word ‘apostle’ to the twelve. Richard Bauckham has an excellent discourse about this in his book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony. I’ve never heard the case that James the brother or cousin of Jesus was James the son Alphaeus or James the son of Zebedee. Ironically, Richard Bauckham also wrote a book on Jesus’s family, though I haven’t read that one. I will note that the Greek word αδελφος which is translated as brother in English bibles in relation to Jesus’s relative can very much mean cousin, too. Though I find it quite unlikely that the James called the αδελφος of Jesus is either James the son of Alphaeus or James the son of Zebedee, that doesn’t mean that James was necessarily the son of Mary. On the Protestant side, the reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin all believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary-they didn’t think that Matthew 1:25 necessarily indicated otherwise (though I think it seems to). Belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary is actually quite ancient-it’s first attested in the 2nd century, less than a century after the death of the apostles, and may very well have its origin with them (I certainly don’t rule out that it’s true-grammatically, from the Greek, Matthew 1:25 doesn’t strictly indicate that Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage, though that is the most natural reading). That said, it’s not exactly an article of faith-that Jesus was immaculately conceived is basically essential, but what Mary and Joseph did or did not do after Jesus’s birth is rather unimportant in the grand scheme of things. It’s also worth noting that what’s believed to be the earliest source attesting the perpetual virginity of Mary and that James was only a half brother of Jesus is the pseudepigraphal Infancy Gospel of James. Whether its author intended his work as fiction or a forgery is unclear-there’s evidence that the early church, shunning Greco-Roman styles of entertainment, turned to writing their own fiction in the form of pseudepigraphal Gospels, Acts, and Apocalypses of various New Testament figures (some of which are quite early, e.g., the Apocalypse of Peter; some in the early church thought that Revelation/the Apocalypse of John fell into this category). Some of these were likely deliberate forgeries, and many betray Gnostic beliefs. It’s actually thought by some that the Infancy Gospel of James was produced by a Gnostic sect, and that belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary may have begun in a semi-Gnostic segment of Christianity. It’s ultimately unclear, though. It’s definitely not an article of faith/worthy to be called a dogma, in my opinion. Roman Catholics would obviously disagree, I imagine.
@@augustinian2018 Wow, that's a lot of interesting information. I have noticed in reading through Against Heresies by Irenaeus (around 180 AD) that there are a few times where it almost talks as though the origins of the perpetual virginity are within Gnosticism. Book 1, chapter 29 talks about some of them believing in "a certain Aeon who never grows old, and exists in a virgin spirit: him they call Barbelos." It then talks about a certain man called Adamas sent from Autogenes: "Invincible power was also conferred on him by the virgin spirit; and all things then rested on him, to sing praises to the great Aeon. Hence also they declare were manifested the mother, the father, the son." In a similar way, in Book 1 chapter 5, Irenaeus talks about the an Aeon called Sophia. "This mother they also call Ogdoad, Sophia; Terra, Jerusalem, Holy Spirit, and, with a masculine preference, Lord." -It looks like Gnostics got confused about the Trinity, confusing Mary the mother of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, sometimes calling them by the masculine and sometimes by the feminine, and they associated the virgin state of Mary at the time of Jesus' conception to be an eternal state. This is also reasonable in the Muslim understanding of the Trinity. Mohammad condemns this in Sura 5:73-75, 116 where he criticizes Christians for worshiping Jesus and Mary. I obviously need to do a whole lot more research, but if the Gospel of James is the first that ascribes the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, and Irenaeus describes a confusion of a "virgin spirit" associated with the Holy Spirit, associated with "mother" associated with the Trinity, which Mohammad confused as Mary, then it definitely does seem as though the origins of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary came from Gnostic origins.
Truthfully there were 100s of apostles note little a .this is a good video .i dont agree with these ladys im sure she was a female apostle but thats ok to dissagree im hopping it gets people looking at what do i believe ! ?
Grammatical structure ? Guessing ? You think God doesnt know what to say ? Among Apostles means not an Apostle . There is no scripture about female ordination as an Apostle. Apostle is an office of Men not Women. 1 Corinthians 11:7-9 - The New International Version (NIV) 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. Order of the Almighty God cannot be changed !!!
They're absolutely where two female apostles. One did not have a number and the other 1 was the 13th. His mother, our blessed mother. The immaculate conception was known as the 13th apostle. The other apostle. Was the sister of lazareth mary magnoline. Named the apostle of the apostles due to herself being the first to see Jesus resurrected, in which he told her do not touch me, because he knew once she recognized him She would feel the need to embrace the man she loved. So there were three apostles that were not Murdered. His beloved John His Mother and his Wife. Who was there to anoint his body after death. In jewish Tradition this is not the role of a mother Is but the role of a wife. The miracle of the dead sea scrolls gave us back portions of mary magdalen's gospel , which is very enlightening.
The Old Testament mentions women prophets as a "prophetess." They are: Miriam (Exodus 15:20) Deborah (Judges 4:4) Huldah (2 Kings 22:14 and 2 Chronicles 34:22) Noadiah ( Nehemiah 6:14) Unnamed prophetess (Isaiah 8:3) The New Testament mentions women as a "woman prophet". Anna (Luke 2:36) Philip's daughters (Acts 21:9) Mary, mother of Jesus (Acts 1:14; 2:17)
@@scottbrandon6244 Exactly. I love it when people present female prophets as some argument for females being pastors or apostles. The office of prophet is a submissive role by design. They give what they believe is the word of the Lord and it's up to the people to discern if it's true or not. If the office of prophet was a leadership position, it would be ripe for horrific abuse.
Well let me apply this; Deborah was a judge but not a general in the army. In ancient Isreal Judges were also Generals. Also prophecy is very complex topic because not every prophecy has to do with direct enforcement of the law or a specific command. There are cases of what could be seen as closer to divination or foretelling of the future. Also it could be an encouragement from the Lord spoken through a person. So what I'm saying is that the word Prophet has different meanings based on the context and since she is a woman there can be no context in which she is the leader of a church. Also Miriam was a prophetess in the times of rhe exodus but Moses was the leader and carried rhe authority of God within the community.
The Greek says that they prophecied (gift of the Spirit 1 Cor 12), it doesn't say they were 'prophets'. There is a ministry of prophesying as written in the OT.
The whole Junia is a females apostle thing is just a perfect example of bad hermeneutics. Even IF one could establish from such a small mentioning that she was a she and they called her an apostle, it still means nothing because we have no idea what is meant by apostle in that context. Nothing would equate it to what Paul and Peter were.
I find it interesting that whether JUNIA or Junias was a man or woman, the text (Romans 16:7) is clear that she/he were counted worthy or ‘well known among the apostles’ not designated as a female per se as Phoebe was in verse 1-2…It is debatable that JUNIA was a female as some manuscripts indicate Junias and varies depending on the translation. There were many biases in the translations from the original HEBREW; despite the Roman/Greek references and translation into English. Women need to Stop trying to usurp the Rightful position of the man as “the head”…There were 12 apostles and 12 tribes of Israel led by MEN and reiterated, Named and inscribed on the gates and foundation walls of the city of the New Jerusalem In chapter 21 of The Book Revelation…
Then why does it call those two countrymen, not women in Romans 16:7 NKJV📖🤔 Romans 16:7 [7]Greet Andronicus & Junia,▶️my countrymen◀️ & my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Jesus Christ Love's Us All, Hallelujah, Amen❣️🙌
G2458 Original: Ἰουνίας Transliteration: Iounias Phonetic: ee-oo-nee'-as Thayer Definition: Junia = "youthful" a Christian woman at Rome, mentioned by Paul as one of his kinsfolk and fellow prisoners Origin: of Latin origin TDNT entry: None Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine Strong's Definition: Of Latin origin; Junias, a Christian: - Junias.
Kind of a shallow discussion, relying a lot on your own assumptions and the words of John Chrysostom. If you read his writings on women, one would not be surprised with his interpretation. Having served in the work of Bible translation, I learned that languages are a challenge and choices are always made, and they are made by people with backgrounds, education and culture that leads to bias. When most Bible translation is overseen by mostly old, white, western men, it is no surprise either with the choices made with English translations that your refer to.
Because women aren't designed for leadership or teaching. Which is why it's forbidden in the Bible, then gives the reasons. First woman was created for man, not the other way around, so she is not to LEAD men. Second, women are easily deceived, so they do not make good teachers. Those are two specific reasons for the prohibition. Paul was being kind. Women aren't just easily deceived, they WANT to be deceived. Women want to be told what they WANT to hear, not what the truth is. It's all over society, how we have to walk on eggshells and deny reality, so we don't offend women.
It's a good thing Mary Magdalene showed up at the Last Supper along with the male disciples. Otherwise they wouldn't have had the bread for communion. It was a potluck.
Study the Elect lady study Study Deborah , who ruled Israel Study Jael judges for who won the war for Israel Study, the mother of our Lord, who delivered Jesus Christ the Lord of God may fled through her body to the entire world. Study study study
LOL, Deboran didn't RULE Israel, nor did she even lead them into Battle. God called BARAK to lead the army of Israel. But this was during an apostate time, and like today, the men were cucked and cowards and submissive to women. So HE said he wouldn't go, UNLESS Deborah went with him. This displeased God, so she said she would go, but the glory would go to a woman now and not a man. She only went with him to the field of battle, she didn't go into battle or lead anyone. Notice, unlike the other judges, God doesn't say HE raised her up to judge Israel. He just stated a fact that she judged Israel, but again during their apostate time while under judgment. God only used her role as a prophet to give Barak the word of the Lord to go to battle. She was a prophetess, that was it. People CHOSE to go to her for judgment, just like people go to churches with gay and female pastors and some churches actually perform gay weddings. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right. Hundreds of years later in Isaiah 3:11 God makes it quite clear it's a curse for women to lead a nation. [Isa 3:12 NASB95] 12 O My people! Their oppressors are children, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who guide you lead [you] astray And confuse the direction of your paths. The rest of the chapter goes on to describe the judgments God had planned for these rebellious women of Israel.
Of course she was an apostle. There were many more apostles than just 12. The 12 is a symbolic number as is the 120 at penticost. (12 from each of the lost tribes). All together over the last 2k years these people represent the 144k. Another symbolic number.
N.T. Wright may not be infallible, but he is definitely a voice to be reckoned with on any issue he’s investigated in detail, along with similar folks like Ben Witherington. While I haven’t been convinced by their cases, I’m definitely open to the possibility they’re correct (though I haven’t done too deep of a dive on it yet).
PDK,......There is no woman in the Bible that is an apostle, a preacher, a teacher, a pastor, etc. All women have been commanded to be in silence about the things of God. As far as Priscilla, she being a Christian was there supporting her husband as Aquilla taught the word of God. She being a Christian was in silence as she was commanded to be, but was there supporting her husband by being silent and in obedience to God as she was commanded. Nowhere does the Bible ever state that a woman taught the word of God. Acts 18:26 "And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 You're half right, making you half wrong. I encourage you to restudy the issue of women being silent. 1 Cor 11:5 tells us women were praying and prophesying. The exhortation in 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14, are often misunderstood by lacking context. Again, I just encourage you to restudy this. I would imagine we are in agreement that women are not to be in leadership over men, not pastor or elders. But this teaching about being silent is a misstep.
@@caffeineman72 ,....Half right? No, I spoke the truth of Gods word in all that I stated. In the Bible Prophesying is repeating the word of God, so anytime someone states a scripture of speaks the truth of Gods word they are prophesying. 1st Corinthians Ch. 11 is referring to the fact that a woman is not to ever speak the word of God without her head covered (husband present). So, when the womans husband is speaking the word of God to someone, and the wife wants to confirm what her husband is saying by agreeing with it and adding something in she must only do this with her head covered, her husband present. It is only you who has misunderstood 1st Timothy and 1sr Corinthians. These verses as well as the rest of the Bible is 100% clear that a woman is to be in total silence about the things of God and is to never ever teach anyone, not other women, not children. She can only speak a Biblical truth when her husband is present. And the fact is, after nearly 65 years of living, I have never seen or heard from a single woman that had any actual Biblical understanding. Everything I have ever heard a woman speak about the Bible has been wrong. And this is exactly why God forbids women from ever speaking the word of God to anyone. One of the major reasons why the entire church is 100% apostate is because of women. The loosing of satan is the loosing of women. Since women have been allowed to do all the things they were not allowed to do in say the last 100 years, this is what has caused the whole world to become a million time more ungodly. In the Bible women are represented by the word satan, the adversary. Revelation Ch. 20, 7, "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 I strongly disagree with everything you presented here, but I also know nothing beneficial will come from a youtube discourse.
@@caffeineman72 ,...A youtube discourse is no different than any other discourse. The reason nothing beneficial comes from the discussing of Gods word anywhere is because the discourse is either between two spiritually dead people or a spiritually dead and spiritually alive person. I admit I did not do a good job of explaining what I was trying to get across, but I think you understood what I was trying to say. All one needs to look at (consider) is the world has dramatically become way more evil and ungodly in the last hundred years or so and what is the one thing that has changed in the last hundred years or so. The thing that has changed is women have been loosed from the bondage they were in all the years before, they are allowed to have an opinion, to speak where they weren't allowed to speak before and hold positions, they weren't allowed to hold before., allowed to vote, to have a voice in the church, etc. It is women who have brought the entire world and church down into the pit. Again, this is why God forbids a woman to be anything but in silence about the things of God (in the church). Anyone who does not understand this does not understand the Bible. All those who fill all the 100% apostate churches are all still spiritually dead and blind, they are completely Biblically illiterate and snared into a 100% counterfeit (antichrist) christianity.
After Saul woke as Paul then he understood all OT are Allegories, Every covenant used Woman name not physical female nor male, Paul told there is no male, no female, no jew, no, gentile, ect......in Christ in YOU, so male nor female matters, Paul had to preach milk to old wine mixing with new mine Covenant always called least still more awake than John Baptist called Greatest born of woman was least to least starting to look for Christ in them. You read this then you need meat, Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Another hint few see Skull hill as cross in man, not one wood one, thats your ponder if your starting leave saved for WAKE about how Christ is in man two ways, asleep and woken is reality not a person only one outside man, its in all man ONE. Abraham being Allegory does challenge your reading it as history isn't truth, its up to you to ponder your classic christians like saved but awake can throw saved outside yourself, like Paul did to Saul, Gal 4:21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Isaac 30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Paul did cast out, another man or Saul. Every story is like this you might miss whats meant Isaac and older brother was like Saul and David or Paul not two people, same one getting new name for AWAKE. .
So your saying there is division in Christ then? You take this book literally when Paul tells you not to, you minister the letter because you don’t know the spirit! It doesn’t tell you things because it doesn’t matter to the spirit! God is not a man. You do not understand wisdom because you look with your eyes but do not see because your mind is carnal
@@terrypaul7706 ,....Yes, I understand that they do not understand the Bible, but I dont know what you are saying. There is no division in Christ, but also there are no Christians in the church so of course there is division. The actual Christians have nothing to do with the apostate church. Are you saying they are wrong because they lean toward Junia not being a woman? Or because they have not correctly stated that women are to be in silence about the things of God and Junia could not possible have been a woman if she was considered an apostle? Women are to be in silence, Period!
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 Noooooo there is no Jew or Greek, male or female for we are all one in Christ! The woman in the bible refers to the emotional nature of mankind. It’s all symbolic. That’s why it says to cover the head meaning the emotional nature. Christ is the head you get it? Not our literal head, our thoughts. Everything in the bible are thoughts, spirit
It's a bit hypocritical for you as a woman, to exercise the global power of the internet to teach and correct the body of Christ, echoing forth the truth to every corner of space time now via EMF, and muddle about over Greek works which you don't really understand. Apostolic is as apostolic does.
The 12 male apostles we're Jesus, inner circle. ..but, there were others that walked with him n fit the requirements to be one. Mary, in which He loved dearly...fitted the requirements of being an apostle. Matter a fact...she was the first to see YAHSHUA n to share the news with the rest. Also, Thecla, was another female apostle....
That Greek name can be either female or male. It defiantly was a man. All leadershop positions are men, even deacons if you believe Gods Word. If Jesus would of picked a women He would of with the first 12
@@ericaboateng9808why do you laugh at Gods word ? The head of man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man.. plain and simple Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:2-3
@Livingbread__ True, the head of the household for a woman is her husband. However, women aren't to obey men. They are to submit to their husband. Colossians 3:18-21 18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them. 20 Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord. 21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.
Im sorry but when a woman is fully submitted to her husband then she will obey him, otherwise she isnt submitted to him, he is the head of the house so she will have to obey and submit him, all out of love ofcourse and most of all because of love for God.@@Nicolee7764
Junias or junia is NOT A WOMEN and here's why. The Greek word is Ἰουνιᾶς and ONLY MEN have names that end in the ς or what we call s. It's strange that the definitions would try to say a woman when greek writers know that women's names end in the -eta in Greek. Seems like some kind of feminist agenda from Satan to insert that in there to cause confusion.
That isn’t the Greek word, though. Romans 16:7 uses Ἰουνίαν. We have absolutely zero uses of this name as a man from the time period while we have over 300 Junia’s in Latin. Nearly every Early Church Father thought Ἰουνίαν was a woman. The only people with an agenda are ones who are trying to make her male.
Mike Winger just completed a very detailed study on this (and other related) bible topics on his Women in Ministry studies (which are still ongoing)
Learned so much from him!
Karl,....First off, Mike W. is not a Christian. He is a Godless man of the Godless world pretending to be a Christian. I don't know what he stated on this topic, but he is a false teacher and can only lead you farther astray than you already are.
And?
And he is wrong
Mike Winger is misogynistic.
This is a reported quote from Chrysostom: ‘Greet Andronicus and Junia . . . distinguished among the apostles.’ To be apostles is a great thing, but to be distinguished among them-consider what an extraordinary accolade that is! They were distinguished because of their works and because of their upright deeds. Indeed, how great was the wisdom of this woman that she was thought worthy of being called an apostle!’
Erasmus in the Greek Authoritative Text continued this female name Junia, it wasn’t until Martin Luther translated the Bible where we see Junia go to Junias. Now- I’ve only began my own research, there are quotes by Chrysostom in direct opposition to what you’ve said here. If you know exactly where you’re reading this information from, I would love to know. Honestly, as a woman, I’ve already accepted what we believe about women leaders in church, but if she was an apostle or if there were women pastors, I’m ready to follow the exact truth of the matter. Either way, the truth is the truth, and that’s all I want to follow.
I love your comment. You are a wise person
I’d recommend Eldon Epps book on Junia. He does an amazing analysis of it. The Greek New Testament that many use to translate with had it as Junias until 1998 when they changed it to Junia. Lots of good analysis in a short book.
Love and agree with your point on Junia but we should be careful as in Acts 14:14 Barnabas is listed as an apostle along with Paul. The word simply means 'sent one' as I'm sure you know. I like to go with, there were only 12 capital 'A' Apostles (or more accurately 13 with Judas being disqualified). Paul is accepted with most on this because he was literally commissioned by the risen Jesus. However Barnabas and possibly also Timothy and Titus were considered 'sent ones' or small 'a' apostles. Anyway, great word here on the Junia question.
Good comment
My comment here is a bit of a random tangent, but it relates to frequent conflation of the two sense of ‘apostle’ we find in the New Testament.
There’s actually a decent argument that the apostle John who wrote the Gospel according to John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and very possibly Revelation was from Judea and an apostle in the sense of Paul and not John the son of Zebedee, the member of the Twelve from Galilee. Basically, the case is built on hints from the text of the Gospel itself (and the absence of any identification of the author as the son of Zebedee), like its focus on Jesus’s ministry in Judea, the absence of events like the transfiguration which the sons of Zebedee were present at, the insinuation in John 18 that the author was known to the high priest, as well as evidence from the church fathers. The church fathers, from whom we have our attestations that the men who wrote the Gospels were named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (though it’s quite possible the Gospels were always titled, the names of the authors never appear in the text itself), tell us John wrote his Gospel in Ephesus; a second century bishop in Ephesus, Polycrates, writing less than a century after John is believed to have been written, identifies the disciple whom Jesus loved who reclined against Jesus at the last supper as having been a priest in the temple in Jerusalem, not a fisherman from Galilee; none of the 2nd century church fathers from Asia Minor, the region where Ephesus lies, identify the son of Zebedee as the author of the Gospel, and one of the earliest writers from this region, Papias of Hierapolis, appears to tell us that there were two Johns, and that both the sons of Zebedee were martyred. It’s not a definitive case-sources from outside Asia Minor do identify the author of the Gospel as the son of Zebedee, but they also conflate other folks with the same name, e.g. Philipp the apostle and Philipp the deacon. (The argument is most extensively presented by Richard Bauckham in his book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony.)
There are four classes of Apostles. Class 1: Jesus Heb 3:1 Class 2: 12 Apostles of the Lamb Rev 21:14 - Matthias replaced Judas; qualification: had to be an eyewitness of Jesus’ ministry- Acts 1:15-23 Class 3: Paul, Barnabas and any other NT apostles were in this class - contributed to foundational doctrine of the NT church Eph 2:20 Class 4: any other person called to the office as one of the five fold ministries Eph 4:11. This group includes modern day apostles
...there is strong tradition "the 70 sent out" were also called "apostles"...but were not considered equal amongst "the 12"
No female pastors, no female apostles and in today's society, no female husbands.
Lol
Zing! 😆
😂😂😂
Nice..
Amen. 😂😂
I hope the longer discussion included the difference between an Apostle and an apostle.
Now that is worthy a discussion. Jesus appointed 12 disciples to be Apostles, one of them being Judas. Before Pentecost Peter felt that his seat needed to be filled. They drew lots an Matthias became the 13th Apostle. Yet later in Acts we see Jesus meeting Saul of Tarsus and turning him completely around. I personally believe he was the one Jesus chose to fill the seat of Judas. However, when writing about the Apostles of Scripture I will capitalize the A for the 11 Jesus chose. For Paul, even though I believe Jesus chose him, I use a small a, apostle. Bringing that down to today, there are NO apostles with the same appointment Jesus gave the 12. An apostle means one who is sent, and even during the first century was used to mean missionary or church planter, with no special calling except for Paul.
Important message presented here. Intelligently, wisely, broke down.
Let alone pointing to the mention of Barnabas as an apostle in the book of Acts, interesting that Paul explicitly makes a distinction between “the twelve” and “the apostles” in 1 Corinthians 15:5-7… but I suppose if you want to suit your own narrative that is in direct opposition to the vast majority of professional scholars and historians that study the early church for a living and almost all agree that Julia was a female apostle (as John Chrysostom and other early church fathers also wrote), I suppose it makes sense to limit the term “apostles” to just mean “the twelve”.
It seems reasonable to assume that if ever there were a female apostle, it would likely have been Mary Magdalene. But Scripture never lists her as one. A godly and insightful woman - yes. But not an apostle.
TB,.....No, that is not at all a reasonable assumption, it is heresy.
“’Greet Andronicus and Junia . . . distinguished among the apostles’…how great was the wisdom of this **woman** that she was thought worthy of being called an apostle!” - Chrysostom, In epistulam ad Romanos 31.2; PG:60.669-70
These ladies need to do their due diligence before speaking.
Who said junia was even a lady?
@joannakeay… thank you! I was shocked at the misquoting of Chrysostom!
LOL, sorry, notable among the apostles, just means that they had a good reputation with the apostles, it doesn't mean that EITHER was an apostle, just that they were notable.
It's like a friend of mine that worked at a large corporation and one of the big wigs, saw her walking down a hallway and says, your making quite a name for yourself among those in the hall of power.
He wasn't saying SHE was one of those in the halls of power, just that she was notable amongst them, and was building a reputation with them.
After this, she was in the running for a VP slot.
You need to get Ben Witherington III on for this. Did a PhD on women in the New Testament and he has Junia as a woman and apostle confidently
And he is wrong, confidently
@@Ooochild good chat 😂
@@honestchristianity936 If you side with him I’d be happy to chat. You just stated a generalized comment so I responded with a generalized comment.
HC,....Whoever this false teacher you mention is, he is 100% wrong. All women are to be in silence about the things of God, period! It is 100% impossible for a woman to be an apostle as that is a 100% violation of Gods word. All women are to be 100% silent about the things of God.
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 nice prank
This is a great topic for discussion! I was just learning about how Junia was intentionally changed in translation to Junius in "The Making of Biblical Womanhood" by Beth Allison Barr in Ch. 2, on Audible it's at timestamp 59:59. She historically tracks the change in translation.
Do you understand the severity of how this deceptive suggestion could potentially undermind the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures? If one suspects any passage of scripture to be untrue, then another could suspect an area of scripture to be true that supports his agenda as well. Altimately, it eventually concluding that the bible is false.
Only an unsaved soul and unregenrate heart will entertain such demoninc nonsense.
Martin Luther also changed it to Junius
@Vincenzo-wn1or I lost a lot of my respect for Martin Luther when I found out that he said :
"If women become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth. That is what they are there for."
😲
Ummmm... as a Mama myself, that is such a horrible misogynistic thing to say to a woman?! I can not imagine if my husband said that to me, especially during labor?! It's even more offensive to hear this from a man claiming to represent the heart of God?! I do not believe Jesus would ever say that to a woman!
I am under an Apostle. Bona Fide, and you are correct; no where in the word was a female Apostle ordained . God will not go against his order
“And indeed to be apostles at all is a great thing. But to be even amongst these of note, just consider what a great encomium this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. *Oh! How great is the devotion of this woman, that she should even be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!* But even here he does not stop…For after glory such as his in kind and degree, he sets others before himself, and does not hide from us the fact of his coming after them, nor ashamed of confessing this” (Chrysostom, The Homilies of S. John Chrysostom on the Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Romans)
The only way you can make out that Junia wasn't a female apostle is if you know for sure that apostles can't be women and then distort the text to say this. She definitely was a woman and the grammatical structure indicates that she was an apostle.
If you are interested in finding out why I come out so strongly get a book called "the blue parakeet" and search through what has really gone on in the church. The Bible translators went though a period of basically distorting the truth (ok, they were lying to us). Things in the more recent translations have gonr back to how they were a couple hundred years ago no and the misinformation about the person being male has been corrected. There are still loads of bibles out there with this infortunate episode in them.
I heard they changed the name from Junia to Junias because they didn't want to get in trouble
No JUNIA/ Junias was NOT a woman…!
Grammatical structure ? Guessing ? You think God doesnt know what to say ? Among Apostles means not an Apostle .
Apostle is an office of Men in the bible
Yes. Check your Greek, not an English translation!
Great teaching and I agree but use caution. By the strictest definition of Απόστολος (apostle) there are more than 12…see Luke 10:1 😁
That's an interesting take. What makes you think the 72 we're apostles? I haven't heard that before
Having a female Apostle will go against what Paul taught against women teaching doctrine since what an Apostle says will have that quality. Women arr forbidden from teaching not on their ability but because Eve sinned. That is why the commandment from Paul in this regard. So female Apostles will be against Scripture.
One could make a case for the Samaritan woman at the well, who as a consequence of what transpired resulted in many coming to hear him.
Just in Romans Paul states Junia but also Julia, Mary, Persis, Phoebe, Prisca, Typhaena and Tryphosa and of women identified as the mother of Rufus, and the sister of Nereus.
Yeah, and none of them were in leadership.
I found this video through Google because I am reading the fictional novel “The Book Woman of Troublesome Creek” and it writes that Junia was the only female apostle. Thanks ladies for the clarification. I knew it was a wrong historical reference.
There’s a lack of scholarship in this video. I’d recommend checking out Phillip B. Payne’s book on this subject.
Very much so… I was shocked at the lack of scholarship used or quoted.
They presented a very
simplistic view of the topic without going into the rich scholarship that has been done.
And Alisa misquoted Chrysostom.
Those that have put on Christ ... There Is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ.
Gal 3:27
Most of my versions say to the effect “and they were esteemed by the apostles.”
Well I believe based off scripture that church leadership is primarily male But we know that God can work through any humble yielded vessel to him for his glory and no one else’s the gifts of the spirit are not exactly gender-based and I have personally seen and grew up in churches that definitely had order an had both men and women who functioned in the gifts of God and people and families got the help and healing. They needed and women who served in leadership roles under proper male Godly leadership and even the late Dr, Walter Martin who Agreed on Reformed theology was not completely opposed to having women occupying areas of the teaching ministry within the church as long as they were under a very careful supervision! So that’s my position and opinion an a Christian man and it really is gonna change.
Female can preach the word of God. God uses women to preach his world
Sorry, you are 100% incorrect and have exposed that you do not understand the Bible. A woman is never allowed to preach nor teach the word of God. They are to be in silence, Period!
Share with the public scriptural references that support your thought. Obviously, you have never read the bible... just a transporter of third-party heresy.
As laypeople to other women and children, to be sure! But as elders, pastors, and/or overseers, no. The qualifications to be elders, pastors, and/or overseers are explicitly clear in I Tim. 3 and Titus 1:5-8. That should be sufficient to put this particular debate to bed.
@HonestCitizen-we1mh Yes, I believe that God's design for men are to be the leader of the church they are the overseers. And for women God also bestows them to preach the Gospel but should not exceed of becoming a pastor of the church
No they can't. It's directly contrary to His word. Only rebellious Jezebel's preach the word of God.
Sorry when you look at the original Greek and the first father of early church writings Junia is a female name St. John chrystom early father of the church addressed her as a female you must do a deep study on that
Yep!👍
Beautiful!! 😍
I left a similar comment on the video where this discussion originally appeared two years ago, but I will repeat the content of my comment here:
-- Ms. Childers is incorrect. John Chrysostom clearly stated that Junia was a woman, not a man. I have to think she is not actually very knowledgeable on this topic to have made this mistake as the Chrysostom quote is extremely well-known and often discussed in the literature on Junia. (Some people have told me they believe Ms. Childers misspoke, but it is strange that she would turn this clip into its own video if she misspoke.)
-- No patristic commentator is known to have definitively called the Junia of Rom 16:7 a man. Epiphanius and Origen likely never commented on her; Ambrosiaster, Rufinus, Chrysostom, Jerome, Theodoret, and the anonymous commentary ("Constantius the Tractator") all seemed to use a feminine form of the name.
-- Some lists of disciples that began circulating from the fifth century or so onwards would sometimes call Junia, Priscilla, or Euodia (Phil 4:2) a man. One of these lists is sometimes mistakenly attributed to Epiphanius even though he most certainly did not write it. Given the other historical errors on these lists, this is not a strong source.
-- Even if a patristic commentator did call her a man --- so what? There are many other such cases in church history where a commentator gave a "gender minority report" of sorts, yet these are almost never seriously considered. See Clement's comments on the Syzygus of Phil 4:3, for example, which dates to the first century (!).
-- Ms. Williams is also incorrect. It is not "appropriate" to footnote a gender alternative based on a hypothetical masculine that is not known to have ever existed. By that logic, we should footnote Andronicus to note that the name could be feminine, because second-declension feminine names also existed in Greek. The only reason this name continues to be footnoted as possibly masculine is ignorance or ideology.
It's okay to make mistakes, and it is okay to disagree with feminist / egalitarian usage of Rom 16:7, but it is not okay to spread obviously incorrect information about what the historical record on Junia says.
So many sexists in these comments, Lord have mercy. In the last days i will pour out my spirit, your son’s and DAUGHTERS will prophecy. Apostle just means sent 1. Keep posting these great videos sis 👏🏽
WAR,....The only ones who are sexist are women. All women are man haters and God haters. This is why God uses women to represent the devil and satan. This is also why God has forbidden women to speak about the things of God and must remain in silence.
You have shown yourself to be totally blind, lost, and deceived.
As to the scripture you have totally perverted, that verse is referring to the day of Pentecost when God poured out his spirit on ALL FLESH. It was only for this special day to confirm Gods new covenant.
The Bible is 100% clear, all women are to be in silence about the things of God, Period!
Yes but too many people want to use the title Apostle because of their prideful flesh.
What sad is there are many unlearned and unsaved carnal women who desire to be in control trying to interpret the Holy Scriptures, but totally and completely out of context, like yourself. The scripture you referenced is in reference to the upper room Pentecost prophacy only.
@ *Testifydesignfactory* There are plenty *”unlearned and carnal”* men in Christianity too. They are in the seat of authority a lot more than women.
🇨🇦
Can you also do a response on Colossians 4:15? Do you think Nympha is a woman or a man in that passage? KJV says Nymphas is a man NASB says Nympha is a female. And it would be really weird for Paul to trust a woman to host a church at her house and than have to be quiet at church in her house.
There really isn’t a debate around it. You just like to pretend there is. Read up on the scholarship.
That's absolutely correct. What bothers me, however, is how many translate Romans 16:1 saying Phoebe was a servant. The Greek word for "servant" here is "diakonos" which is where we get our word for deacon. I'm not saying she was an apostle, but I am saying she was a deacon of the church, recognized by Paul who was an apostle. I find it very degrading that people and translations would take that Greek word and try to make it merely servant. That's like taking the word "dynamis" In Acts 1:8 and saying it means strength, when it not only means power, but is were we get our word for "dynamite."
In my denomination, the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA), which is a bit of a purple elephant on the women’s ordination question, the vast majority of our dioceses do ordain women as deacons as a result of this passage and early church evidence that seems to corroborate that διακονος does indeed mean ‘deacon’ rather than merely ‘servant’ in Romans 16. Anglicans in general retain the tri-fold office of bishop/overseer, priest/presbyter/elder, and deacon that had emerged by the late 2nd century (and possibly much earlier), though where women fit into that scheme is a matter of debate among us. The Episcopal Church USA (TEC) has women serving at every level, and is rather intolerant of anyone who disagrees with them. When the ACNA formed as a result of the merger of dioceses that began as missions to the United States planted by Anglicans in Africa (and elsewhere in the global south) as well as some dioceses of TEC that had significant disagreement with it, it was agreed that only men would be eligible to be bishops, but that the bishop of each diocese would have the final authority in interpreting scripture on the question of ordaining women to the priesthood or diaconate in his diocese. As a result, about 40% of the dioceses ordain women to the priesthood as a result of their reading of the Junia question, a small minority ordain women to neither the priesthood nor the diaconate, and the plurality ordain women to the diaconate but not to the priesthood. Personally, I have been convinced that women served as deacons in the same sense as men in the New Testament era church, but have not been convinced that women served as priests/presbyters/elders, so I belong to a diocese that reflects that understanding.
@@augustinian2018 It is my understanding that the first deacons were those 7 mentioned in Acts 6, but upon research there seems to be some dispute. Some say they were deacons, some say they may have been deacons and possibly later became elders, but there use of Scripture is self-defeating. I think you've made a wise choice, but keep and open heart to the will of God.
RASA,.....Phoebe was absolutely not a deacon, that would violate the whole word of God. She was a servant just as the Bible states she was. You are in error because you do not understand the scriptures.
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 I understand the Scriptures, and if you look at YOUR Bible where it translates this word as "servant" there's a great chance there's a footnote that says "deacon" because that's what the word "diakonos" means. I really wish people would stop using Satan's tools to divide the Body of Christ. You want to discount Phoebe from being a deacon because she's a woman. Other than that one instance in 1st Timothy, show me where they cannot hold positions of leadership. I recently heard a pastor say that the judge Deborah was the first prophet to lead Israel. He was wrong. Moses was also a prophet and he led Israel many years before Deborah came on the scene. What is remarkable about Deborah is she told Barak to go out and defeat their enemy. He said he would only go if she went with him. She then said that because he put this condition on this he would not be attributed the victory, but a woman, and so it was.
The same people who would say no female apostles will also say no female decons also so either way thry wont like it.
The video is centred on the OFFICE of apostle. And I support its conclusions. Another office in scripture is the position of church elder - and also deacon. These are not gifts - they are offices with a whole host of eligibility requirements.
The original apostles - those who occupied the OFFICE of apostle - had to be men because they had to be teacher/pastors as part of the initial spread of the gospel. But why do men need to occupy guardianship teaching roles (eldership)? See my PS at the end.
While the office of apostle will only be occupied by twelve people there is also THE GIFT of apostleship. 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 lists the GIFT of apostleship - as distinct from the office. Those with the gift of apostleship are what some call small a apostles. 1 Corinthians 12:31 says that we should desire the greater gifts - the greater gifts being the first listed in verse 28 - apostle and prophet. The fact that we are told to DESIRE the greater gifts tells us a lot - it means that these gifts can be spiritually imparted to people. Which then leads to the question - what are these gifts if they can be spiritually imparted? I put it to you that they are graces which are states of heart.
Below are some of the listed gifts and my attempt to describe their heart:
pastor/teacher - sensitivity to people’s need for a Shepherd - expressed in both explaining and modelling the truth to people.
evangelist - compassion for people that leads to competence in sharing the gospel in particular contexts (it might be standing on stage in front of a crowd or being able to share the gospel one to one with particular effectiveness). The evangelist engages in contexts which MAY see them face hostility.
prophet - seeing both what others are and should become - having the courage to engage with others even when this will mean rejection - paying a price. All authentic prophets face rejection.
apostle - the heart of the apostle is “you sleep in my bed instead of me”. And rejoicing that one is considered worthy of suffering disgrace for the name. The apostle is totally devoted even in suffering - considering his opportunity to serve God a total privilege.
But doesn’t apostleship have to do with church planting? Yes - consider that the REASON the apostle is strategic - able to help the church to multiply - is because he or she is willing to embrace plans for growing the church which involve his or her own role diminishing - this is what all Christ figures are like - they sacrifice themselves so that others might be transformed/redeemed. The American church and the first world church will not begin to grow again until this immutable truth of Christianity - that redemption only happens in death - is embraced again. The gift of apostleship has nothing to do with big crowds, big book sales and frequent flyer points - quite the opposite.
I don't see any barrier to women having the GIFT of apostleship. I look forward to seeing God raise up women whose sacrificial service to men sees them position men in contexts in which many burdens of church planting are taken care of for them - logistics, financial, property choice, technology, foundational teaching (systematic theology - not pastoral theology which involves balancing questions relating to people and principle - more on that in my PS at the bottom), social media etc - the number of ways in which gifted people can make church planting successful is endless.
The idea of apostle being the one who pours themselves out in service fits in with the bible passage about the greatest in the kingdom of God being the servant of all (Matthew 20:20-28). Jesus doesn't speak as if the greatest in the kingdom must be men!
Apostles aren't necessarily great pastors or evangelists - nor necessarily prophets (however the person whose teaching is systematic tends to be prophetic - they tend to be able to show how God relates to people and the world).
PS Why do those in guardianship teaching roles (elders) need to be men? It's not the central thrust of this video but let me divert to explain the HEART OF GOD behind men being guardians of doctrine in the church. We see in 1 Timothy 2 that the reason why Paul says women cannot have teaching authority over men is because the woman is deceived. What on earth can that mean? How can Paul use the fact that Eve is the one deceived as an argument for why ALL women are more prone to spiritual deception - when Adam and Eve are each made perfect by God? It has to be because of different ORIENTATION. My conclusions from looking across scripture about differing orientations (Ephesians 5, 1 Peter 3, 1 Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 11, Ephesians 6:4, etc) is that while men and women both care about people and principle - men care about both in the name of principle - and women care about both in the name of their concern for the welfare of people. So the last question a man asks is "how does this affect principle?" and a woman "how does this affect people?" This is why men are suited to being responsible in contexts in which issues of principle and people are weighed - because their orientation ensures that the truth is not altered for people - and that if the truth is lost - it ends up being re-established (if men are being obedient). This same need for weighing issues of people and principle exists in the home.
The different abilities of men and women lead to the somewhat bizarre situation where a woman can be President of the United States completely effectively - and in situations in which division is seated more in character failure than principle she will be more effective than a man (because women can weigh issues relating to principle and people that aren't spiritual as well as men - such as for example whether to best help people by direct aid or by cutting taxes) and yet she isn't suited to running the local church down the road with forty people. But there are plenty of situations in which men aren't suited to doing a job with even one person - like for example being a mother (which is about a whole lot more than biology - more than pregnancy and breast feeding).
Men and women then are EACH leaders in something - the only reason why men must be leaders in the home and in guardianship of the truth in the church is because unless men's leadership PRECEDES women's leadership in these contexts it finds no place at all (which is why churches led by women fail - because men rightly sense that there is no place for them in such churches).
PB,.....First off, everything you have stated is 100% unbiblical nonsense. Second, you are not a Christian, you are a Godless man of the Godless world. Third, you are a perfect example of why the entire church is 100% apostate from God and Biblical truth.
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 Ten out of ten for passion - but light on detail.
I really appreciated your points and think they are valid but I seem to be odd for a woman as I value principle over people, don't think I am the norm though. I would also add that I too believe men should hold roles in the church that are in leadership, a woman in a leadership role should not be the most senior position in the church for a few reasons in my opinion: 1. Men respect men and need male accountability. 2. It undermines a man's role as leader of his family if he is subject to a female spiritual leader ( this is not to say a female speaker, prophet or teacher can't influence him but he should not be accountable to her) 3. Men are natural protectors and that does not change in a church environment, therefore, men are most suited to protective positions in the church. Lastly, the model for women having close relationships with women and men with men for purposes of discipleship is a model that protects marriages and works really well!
@@jessiesheldon-huffey1824 Hi Jessie,
Thanks for your expressing your appreciation. It takes time to write these things!
I have read your reasons for believing in male leadership in particular contexts - however I share below why I think they fall short of being biblical reasons (reasons that are provable from the bible).
1. "Men respect men and need male accountability". I am a man and I believe that most men greatly respect women - so that isn't in my view a reason. And I don't think that the statement "men need male accountability" is complete on its own - I explained in my post that if I was answerable to a woman who was President of the United States the woman would be perfectly capable of ensuring that I was accountable in that role. The ONLY reason why men would need male accountability would be if there was some reason why women weren't in a particular context gifted to hold men to account. (I therefore point you to the differences I attempted to explain between men and women when it comes to SPIRITUAL discernment).
2. "It undermines a man's role as leader of his family if he is subject to a female spiritual leader". I don't disagree with you - but why does it? It matters very much why it does. It doesn't undermine a man only because the very idea of a woman leading undermines a man - again there has to be key male vs female difference for that to be an appropriate thing to say (anyone saying it without having particular sex differences in mind is sexist).
3. "Men are natural protectors and that does not change in a church environment, therefore, men are most suited to protective positions in the church." My argument is that men are natural protectors of principle when issues that involve weighing matters affecting both people and principle are at stake. And my argument is that women are natural protectors of people - that they are deliberately oriented by God when it comes to SPIRITUAL matters to favour people over principle.
Finally you said:
"Lastly, the model for women having close relationships with women and men with men for purposes of discipleship is a model that protects marriages and works really well!"
I have been thinking about this lately - I am changing my beliefs here.
Let me make a comparison to explain my view. Are you familiar with purity culture? I don't know much about it but my impression is that alongside making commitments to God to obey his word in respect of sex it also involves giving focus to particular rules in the hope of keeping people sexually pure.
One rule which would definitely work is if men and women never laid eyes on each other. I am exaggerating to make a point here - to illustrate that we shouldn't make up rules which are an expression of our believing in LAWS to keep people righteous - when we should instead believing in faith (which gives us access to God's grace).
When we instead put faith in inappropriate rules there can be negative consequences we don't expect - for example single women and single men in the church might never be able to engage with people of the opposite sex concerning matters of ministry - that's pretty unfair on those people - if the church is the thing to which they have chosen to devote themselves.
The focus therefore needs to be on men and women being TRULY transformed - through faith in God - not faith in rules (legalism).
I found your comment about yourself interesting - that you believe that when it comes to considering SPIRITUAL issues affecting both people and principle - that you are inclined to favour principle over people. I wish I knew you better Jessie - because then I might be able to decide - to make comment on how you come across to me. Whatever you conclude about yourself you will like the rest of us be required to decide what 1 Corinthians 11 is about when it says the following (vv7-9):
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
I have concluded that these verses strengthen the idea that men are oriented differently to women due to each having a different purpose in being made by God.
I'm curious if anyone has sources on something. Does every time the Bible uses the word "apostles" is it actually talking about the twelve? It seems in my memory that the answer is actually no, -that there are times that the Bible uses the term to refer to people who were not among the twelve. I think Paul calls himself an apostle at one point, and he wasn't the one selected to replace Judas (that was Matthias).
This is significant because a certain passage that calls James the Brother of Jesus an apostle, which Catholics argue is the Son of Alphaeus, because there are only two James who were among the 12: Son of Zebedee, and Son of Alphaeus. Since neither James the Son of Alphaeus nor James the Son of Zebedee are James the Son of Joseph, it is thus argued that James was not Jesus' brother (which the Gospels explicitly say multiple times), but rather a distant relative like a cousin.
But if the term "Apostle" could be used of somebody who is not of the twelve, then James the brother of Jesus would not have to be either James the Son of Alphaeus nor James the Son of Zebedee, -thus making it likely that he could be James the Son of Joseph and Mary, or James the blood brother of Jesus.
If Paul can count as an apostle, -although he was not one of the original twelve nor the replacement of Judas, then why can't James the Just, the brother of Jesus and first bishop of the Church in Jerusalem, who made the final decree at the Council of Jerusalem, one of the certain martyrs of the faith, and who is attested as one of the first eye-witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus, -why can he not be counted an apostle also? His credentials for apostleship are far higher than Paul's.
I think you hit the nail on the head-the use of the word ‘apostle’ in the New Testament (and other early Christian literature) does not restrict the use of the word ‘apostle’ to the twelve. Richard Bauckham has an excellent discourse about this in his book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony.
I’ve never heard the case that James the brother or cousin of Jesus was James the son Alphaeus or James the son of Zebedee. Ironically, Richard Bauckham also wrote a book on Jesus’s family, though I haven’t read that one. I will note that the Greek word αδελφος which is translated as brother in English bibles in relation to Jesus’s relative can very much mean cousin, too. Though I find it quite unlikely that the James called the αδελφος of Jesus is either James the son of Alphaeus or James the son of Zebedee, that doesn’t mean that James was necessarily the son of Mary. On the Protestant side, the reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin all believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary-they didn’t think that Matthew 1:25 necessarily indicated otherwise (though I think it seems to). Belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary is actually quite ancient-it’s first attested in the 2nd century, less than a century after the death of the apostles, and may very well have its origin with them (I certainly don’t rule out that it’s true-grammatically, from the Greek, Matthew 1:25 doesn’t strictly indicate that Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage, though that is the most natural reading). That said, it’s not exactly an article of faith-that Jesus was immaculately conceived is basically essential, but what Mary and Joseph did or did not do after Jesus’s birth is rather unimportant in the grand scheme of things. It’s also worth noting that what’s believed to be the earliest source attesting the perpetual virginity of Mary and that James was only a half brother of Jesus is the pseudepigraphal Infancy Gospel of James. Whether its author intended his work as fiction or a forgery is unclear-there’s evidence that the early church, shunning Greco-Roman styles of entertainment, turned to writing their own fiction in the form of pseudepigraphal Gospels, Acts, and Apocalypses of various New Testament figures (some of which are quite early, e.g., the Apocalypse of Peter; some in the early church thought that Revelation/the Apocalypse of John fell into this category). Some of these were likely deliberate forgeries, and many betray Gnostic beliefs. It’s actually thought by some that the Infancy Gospel of James was produced by a Gnostic sect, and that belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary may have begun in a semi-Gnostic segment of Christianity. It’s ultimately unclear, though. It’s definitely not an article of faith/worthy to be called a dogma, in my opinion. Roman Catholics would obviously disagree, I imagine.
@@augustinian2018 Wow, that's a lot of interesting information. I have noticed in reading through Against Heresies by Irenaeus (around 180 AD) that there are a few times where it almost talks as though the origins of the perpetual virginity are within Gnosticism. Book 1, chapter 29 talks about some of them believing in "a certain Aeon who never grows old, and exists in a virgin spirit: him they call Barbelos." It then talks about a certain man called Adamas sent from Autogenes: "Invincible power was also conferred on him by the virgin spirit; and all things then rested on him, to sing praises to the great Aeon. Hence also they declare were manifested the mother, the father, the son." In a similar way, in Book 1 chapter 5, Irenaeus talks about the an Aeon called Sophia. "This mother they also call Ogdoad, Sophia; Terra, Jerusalem, Holy Spirit, and, with a masculine preference, Lord." -It looks like Gnostics got confused about the Trinity, confusing Mary the mother of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, sometimes calling them by the masculine and sometimes by the feminine, and they associated the virgin state of Mary at the time of Jesus' conception to be an eternal state.
This is also reasonable in the Muslim understanding of the Trinity. Mohammad condemns this in Sura 5:73-75, 116 where he criticizes Christians for worshiping Jesus and Mary.
I obviously need to do a whole lot more research, but if the Gospel of James is the first that ascribes the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, and Irenaeus describes a confusion of a "virgin spirit" associated with the Holy Spirit, associated with "mother" associated with the Trinity, which Mohammad confused as Mary, then it definitely does seem as though the origins of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary came from Gnostic origins.
Truthfully there were 100s of apostles note little a .this is a good video .i dont agree with these ladys im sure she was a female apostle but thats ok to dissagree im hopping it gets people looking at what do i believe ! ?
This is pure biblical selective nonsense
Grammatical structure ? Guessing ? You think God doesnt know what to say ? Among Apostles means not an Apostle .
There is no scripture about female ordination as an Apostle.
Apostle is an office of Men not Women.
1 Corinthians 11:7-9 - The New International Version (NIV)
7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
Order of the Almighty God cannot be changed !!!
No translation calls Junia an Apostle. Correct, the Passion is NOT a translation!! Rom 16:7
They're absolutely where two female apostles. One did not have a number and the other 1 was the 13th. His mother, our blessed mother. The immaculate conception was known as the 13th apostle. The other apostle.
Was the sister of lazareth mary magnoline. Named the apostle of the apostles due to herself being the first to see Jesus resurrected, in which he told her do not touch me, because he knew once she recognized him She would feel the need to embrace the man she loved. So there were three apostles that were not Murdered. His beloved John His Mother and his Wife. Who was there to anoint his body after death. In jewish Tradition this is not the role of a mother Is but the role of a wife. The miracle of the dead sea scrolls gave us back portions of mary magdalen's gospel , which is very enlightening.
The Old Testament mentions women prophets as a "prophetess." They are:
Miriam (Exodus 15:20)
Deborah (Judges 4:4)
Huldah (2 Kings 22:14 and 2 Chronicles 34:22)
Noadiah ( Nehemiah 6:14)
Unnamed prophetess (Isaiah 8:3)
The New Testament mentions women as a "woman prophet".
Anna (Luke 2:36)
Philip's daughters (Acts 21:9)
Mary, mother of Jesus (Acts 1:14; 2:17)
Female apostles is another story.
@@scottbrandon6244 Exactly. I love it when people present female prophets as some argument for females being pastors or apostles. The office of prophet is a submissive role by design. They give what they believe is the word of the Lord and it's up to the people to discern if it's true or not.
If the office of prophet was a leadership position, it would be ripe for horrific abuse.
praise the only true living LORD and GOD bless you all glory be to the HOLY TRINITY forever and ever amen 💖✝✝✝...
There is no such thing as the trinity. That is a 100% false manmade CONcept. No actual Christianity believes in a trinity.
Pope Francis and the Catholic church have recognised Mary Magdalene as Apostle of Apostles... So..
This means nothing since the RCC is out to lunch.
What about Phillip’s daughters? They were prophets, and the main job of a prophet in the OT was covenant enforcement?
Well let me apply this; Deborah was a judge but not a general in the army. In ancient Isreal Judges were also Generals. Also prophecy is very complex topic because not every prophecy has to do with direct enforcement of the law or a specific command. There are cases of what could be seen as closer to divination or foretelling of the future. Also it could be an encouragement from the Lord spoken through a person. So what I'm saying is that the word Prophet has different meanings based on the context and since she is a woman there can be no context in which she is the leader of a church. Also Miriam was a prophetess in the times of rhe exodus but Moses was the leader and carried rhe authority of God within the community.
There were female prophetesses; few and far between, but there were. Priests, on the other hand, were exclusively male. Same with the Apostles.
@@jjvoges4037 Few does not mean zero.
The Greek says that they prophecied (gift of the Spirit 1 Cor 12), it doesn't say they were 'prophets'. There is a ministry of prophesying as written in the OT.
@@GodsView1 Well, that sounds like a distinction without a difference. Are they speaking for God or not? Are they enforcing the Covenant or not?
The whole Junia is a females apostle thing is just a perfect example of bad hermeneutics.
Even IF one could establish from such a small mentioning that she was a she and they called her an apostle, it still means nothing because we have no idea what is meant by apostle in that context. Nothing would equate it to what Paul and Peter were.
Doesn't take much for a contentious woman to make a mountain out of lol
I find it interesting that whether JUNIA or Junias was a man or woman, the text (Romans 16:7) is clear that she/he were counted worthy or ‘well known among the apostles’ not designated as a female per se as Phoebe was in verse 1-2…It is debatable that JUNIA was a female as some manuscripts indicate Junias and varies depending on the translation. There were many biases in the translations from the original HEBREW; despite the Roman/Greek references and translation into English. Women need to Stop trying to usurp the Rightful position of the man as “the head”…There were 12 apostles and 12 tribes of Israel led by MEN and reiterated, Named and inscribed on the gates and foundation walls of the city of the New Jerusalem In chapter 21 of The Book Revelation…
This was wel explained...n its nice seeing it coming from females...so people wont say these men this n that lol...
Then why does it call those two countrymen, not women in Romans 16:7 NKJV📖🤔
Romans 16:7
[7]Greet Andronicus & Junia,▶️my countrymen◀️ & my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Jesus Christ Love's Us All, Hallelujah, Amen❣️🙌
G2458
Original: Ἰουνίας
Transliteration: Iounias
Phonetic: ee-oo-nee'-as
Thayer Definition: Junia = "youthful"
a Christian woman at Rome, mentioned by Paul as one of his kinsfolk and fellow prisoners
Origin: of Latin origin
TDNT entry: None
Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Strong's Definition: Of Latin origin; Junias, a Christian: - Junias.
Joanna is both
Kind of a shallow discussion, relying a lot on your own assumptions and the words of John Chrysostom. If you read his writings on women, one would not be surprised with his interpretation. Having served in the work of Bible translation, I learned that languages are a challenge and choices are always made, and they are made by people with backgrounds, education and culture that leads to bias. When most Bible translation is overseen by mostly old, white, western men, it is no surprise either with the choices made with English translations that your refer to.
You sir are a clown.
What a great irony that Alisa is speaking against women apostles when she herself is one.
God is not the author of confusion either it is or it isn’t I’m about go research and use discernment to find out.
Could just use the transliteration of the Greek -- "Iounian"
Why should it even matter that Jesus didn't have any female apostles?
Why should the sex of someone matter?
Because men and Women have different roles according to scripture.
Because women aren't designed for leadership or teaching. Which is why it's forbidden in the Bible, then gives the reasons. First woman was created for man, not the other way around, so she is not to LEAD men. Second, women are easily deceived, so they do not make good teachers. Those are two specific reasons for the prohibition.
Paul was being kind. Women aren't just easily deceived, they WANT to be deceived. Women want to be told what they WANT to hear, not what the truth is. It's all over society, how we have to walk on eggshells and deny reality, so we don't offend women.
Pls show me where a woman preaching happened. That's false
No!
It's a good thing Mary Magdalene showed up at the Last Supper along with the male disciples. Otherwise they wouldn't have had the bread for communion. It was a potluck.
Study the Elect lady study
Study Deborah , who ruled Israel
Study Jael judges for who won the war for Israel
Study, the mother of our Lord, who delivered Jesus Christ the Lord of God may fled through her body to the entire world.
Study study study
LOL, Deboran didn't RULE Israel, nor did she even lead them into Battle. God called BARAK to lead the army of Israel. But this was during an apostate time, and like today, the men were cucked and cowards and submissive to women. So HE said he wouldn't go, UNLESS Deborah went with him. This displeased God, so she said she would go, but the glory would go to a woman now and not a man.
She only went with him to the field of battle, she didn't go into battle or lead anyone.
Notice, unlike the other judges, God doesn't say HE raised her up to judge Israel. He just stated a fact that she judged Israel, but again during their apostate time while under judgment. God only used her role as a prophet to give Barak the word of the Lord to go to battle.
She was a prophetess, that was it. People CHOSE to go to her for judgment, just like people go to churches with gay and female pastors and some churches actually perform gay weddings. Just because they are doing it, doesn't make it right.
Hundreds of years later in Isaiah 3:11 God makes it quite clear it's a curse for women to lead a nation.
[Isa 3:12 NASB95]
12 O My people! Their oppressors are children, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who guide you lead [you] astray And confuse the direction of your paths.
The rest of the chapter goes on to describe the judgments God had planned for these rebellious women of Israel.
Of course she was an apostle. There were many more apostles than just 12. The 12 is a symbolic number as is the 120 at penticost. (12 from each of the lost tribes). All together over the last 2k years these people represent the 144k. Another symbolic number.
Nonsense.
According to NT Wright, yes.
N.T. Wright may not be infallible, but he is definitely a voice to be reckoned with on any issue he’s investigated in detail, along with similar folks like Ben Witherington. While I haven’t been convinced by their cases, I’m definitely open to the possibility they’re correct (though I haven’t done too deep of a dive on it yet).
What About Priscilla?
PDK,......There is no woman in the Bible that is an apostle, a preacher, a teacher, a pastor, etc. All women have been commanded to be in silence about the things of God.
As far as Priscilla, she being a Christian was there supporting her husband as Aquilla taught the word of God. She being a Christian was in silence as she was commanded to be, but was there supporting her husband by being silent and in obedience to God as she was commanded. Nowhere does the Bible ever state that a woman taught the word of God.
Acts 18:26
"And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 You're half right, making you half wrong. I encourage you to restudy the issue of women being silent. 1 Cor 11:5 tells us women were praying and prophesying. The exhortation in 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14, are often misunderstood by lacking context. Again, I just encourage you to restudy this. I would imagine we are in agreement that women are not to be in leadership over men, not pastor or elders. But this teaching about being silent is a misstep.
@@caffeineman72 ,....Half right? No, I spoke the truth of Gods word in all that I stated.
In the Bible Prophesying is repeating the word of God, so anytime someone states a scripture of speaks the truth of Gods word they are prophesying. 1st Corinthians Ch. 11 is referring to the fact that a woman is not to ever speak the word of God without her head covered (husband present). So, when the womans husband is speaking the word of God to someone, and the wife wants to confirm what her husband is saying by agreeing with it and adding something in she must only do this with her head covered, her husband present.
It is only you who has misunderstood 1st Timothy and 1sr Corinthians. These verses as well as the rest of the Bible is 100% clear that a woman is to be in total silence about the things of God and is to never ever teach anyone, not other women, not children. She can only speak a Biblical truth when her husband is present. And the fact is, after nearly 65 years of living, I have never seen or heard from a single woman that had any actual Biblical understanding. Everything I have ever heard a woman speak about the Bible has been wrong. And this is exactly why God forbids women from ever speaking the word of God to anyone.
One of the major reasons why the entire church is 100% apostate is because of women. The loosing of satan is the loosing of women. Since women have been allowed to do all the things they were not allowed to do in say the last 100 years, this is what has caused the whole world to become a million time more ungodly. In the Bible women are represented by the word satan, the adversary.
Revelation Ch. 20,
7, "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 I strongly disagree with everything you presented here, but I also know nothing beneficial will come from a youtube discourse.
@@caffeineman72 ,...A youtube discourse is no different than any other discourse. The reason nothing beneficial comes from the discussing of Gods word anywhere is because the discourse is either between two spiritually dead people or a spiritually dead and spiritually alive person.
I admit I did not do a good job of explaining what I was trying to get across, but I think you understood what I was trying to say. All one needs to look at (consider) is the world has dramatically become way more evil and ungodly in the last hundred years or so and what is the one thing that has changed in the last hundred years or so.
The thing that has changed is women have been loosed from the bondage they were in all the years before, they are allowed to have an opinion, to speak where they weren't allowed to speak before and hold positions, they weren't allowed to hold before., allowed to vote, to have a voice in the church, etc. It is women who have brought the entire world and church down into the pit. Again, this is why God forbids a woman to be anything but in silence about the things of God (in the church).
Anyone who does not understand this does not understand the Bible. All those who fill all the 100% apostate churches are all still spiritually dead and blind, they are completely Biblically illiterate and snared into a 100% counterfeit (antichrist) christianity.
After Saul woke as Paul then he understood all OT are Allegories, Every covenant used Woman name not physical female nor male, Paul told there is no male, no female, no jew, no, gentile, ect......in Christ in YOU, so male nor female matters, Paul had to preach milk to old wine mixing with new mine Covenant always called least still more awake than John Baptist called Greatest born of woman was least to least starting to look for Christ in them.
You read this then you need meat, Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Another hint few see Skull hill as cross in man, not one wood one, thats your ponder if your starting leave saved for WAKE about how Christ is in man two ways, asleep and woken is reality not a person only one outside man, its in all man ONE.
Abraham being Allegory does challenge your reading it as history isn't truth, its up to you to ponder your classic christians like saved but awake can throw saved outside yourself, like Paul did to Saul,
Gal 4:21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Isaac 30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Paul did cast out, another man or Saul. Every story is like this you might miss whats meant Isaac and older brother was like Saul and David or Paul not two people, same one getting new name for AWAKE.
.
b100,.....You have spoken nothing but 100% unbiblical nonsense and you are a heretic. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!
So your saying there is division in Christ then? You take this book literally when Paul tells you not to, you minister the letter because you don’t know the spirit! It doesn’t tell you things because it doesn’t matter to the spirit! God is not a man. You do not understand wisdom because you look with your eyes but do not see because your mind is carnal
TP,.....So what exactly are you trying to say? That they are right, or they are wrong?
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 they are completely misunderstanding every word they have ever read, from start to finish
@@terrypaul7706 ,....Yes, I understand that they do not understand the Bible, but I dont know what you are saying.
There is no division in Christ, but also there are no Christians in the church so of course there is division. The actual Christians have nothing to do with the apostate church.
Are you saying they are wrong because they lean toward Junia not being a woman? Or because they have not correctly stated that women are to be in silence about the things of God and Junia could not possible have been a woman if she was considered an apostle? Women are to be in silence, Period!
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 Noooooo there is no Jew or Greek, male or female for we are all one in Christ! The woman in the bible refers to the emotional nature of mankind. It’s all symbolic. That’s why it says to cover the head meaning the emotional nature. Christ is the head you get it? Not our literal head, our thoughts. Everything in the bible are thoughts, spirit
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 junia the word means youthful so it’s stating something about spirit. Not a man or woman
It's a bit hypocritical for you as a woman, to exercise the global power of the internet to teach and correct the body of Christ, echoing forth the truth to every corner of space time now via EMF, and muddle about over Greek works which you don't really understand. Apostolic is as apostolic does.
The 12 male apostles we're Jesus, inner circle. ..but, there were others that walked with him n fit the requirements to be one. Mary, in which He loved dearly...fitted the requirements of being an apostle. Matter a fact...she was the first to see YAHSHUA n to share the news with the rest. Also, Thecla, was another female apostle....
That Greek name can be either female or male. It defiantly was a man. All leadershop positions are men, even deacons if you believe Gods Word. If Jesus would of picked a women He would of with the first 12
Women were born to obey men.
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@@ericaboateng9808why do you laugh at Gods word ? The head of man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man.. plain and simple
Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:2-3
@Livingbread__ True, the head of the household for a woman is her husband. However, women aren't to obey men. They are to submit to their husband.
Colossians 3:18-21
18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.
20 Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.
21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.
Im sorry but when a woman is fully submitted to her husband then she will obey him, otherwise she isnt submitted to him, he is the head of the house so she will have to obey and submit him, all out of love ofcourse and most of all because of love for God.@@Nicolee7764
No. There were no female Apostles.
Junias or junia is NOT A WOMEN and here's why. The Greek word is Ἰουνιᾶς and ONLY MEN have names that end in the ς or what we call s. It's strange that the definitions would try to say a woman when greek writers know that women's names end in the -eta in Greek. Seems like some kind of feminist agenda from Satan to insert that in there to cause confusion.
That isn’t the Greek word, though. Romans 16:7 uses Ἰουνίαν. We have absolutely zero uses of this name as a man from the time period while we have over 300 Junia’s in Latin. Nearly every Early Church Father thought Ἰουνίαν was a woman. The only people with an agenda are ones who are trying to make her male.