Man, been looking forward to your next CAC sticker upload. It was nice to meet you at the Sacramento show. Thank you for your tutelage and all the best on your future submissions!
Fascinating. I think that a simple explanation goes a long way to make us all smarter collectors. I wish that grading companies would provide info like this, as to why it made a grade, and not the next. Video was well done with care. Thanks so much!
Noah - great that you are sharing this knowledge to all. This is good for the hobby and that JA is willing to participate with you. Big thanks and looking forward to seeing you at FUN.
I was expecting to see a comment like "Overgraded". Instead it was "scratch/cleaning/PVC" etc. But I should assume that these were sent in by you and your buds who definitely knows their stuff and were cherry picked already. Anyhow, like I said in my previous comment, it was refreshing and very insightful to know why something didn't make the mark. I wish this kind of feedback was standard.
Very informative and some big boy coins for sure. I wish I would have gotten notes from the 4 coins I submitted in which none stickered. I assume with no notes, he just thought they were either not choice for the grade or overgraded.
It’s one of two things - either he doesn’t agree with the grade (eg overgraded) or the coin has a problem (under CAC standards) - eg old cleaning, too big a scratch, repair, etc.
Very entertaining reveal. I’m astonished that JA gave you such valuable feedback. Many, many, many submitters have been requesting this sort of response from CAC with no success. He must be mellowing in his “old age”
Ha! He's been really great about this stuff lately, and I know I'm not alone or special. Lots of collectors get the yellow/red stickers too (upon request). It's just the big dealers who send 100s/1000s of coins at a time who nobody ain't got time for :)
Chiming in I have a proof 1878 quarter that has a green bean and has a lot of hairlines It is a 62CAM so maybe at the 62 level John is okay with hairlines but just figured I’d add my experience
Of all the grading companies it’s certainly true that cac is the more critical. With that, I think that previously cac’d 65 to pcgs 64 is an interesting outcome. If I had to guess, despite generally being very conservative in their grades--perhaps seeing it again had them agreeing with pcgs’s grade after another looky see. Sort of like seeing his notes indicating why your submissions didn’t cac sticker and when you reviewed a little closer. Then said “yeah, I can see now why it went that way”. I think the same applies to that specific coin. Which is kind of cool to see an acceptance of getting it slightly wrong versus just nonchalantly placing a gold bean on it “just because”.
Also, thank youuuu for these videos. An absolute awesome educational ride to help decide what to send for beans and take just another minute or two to find that one thing that may save a submission lol
Yes! I called him and spoke about a few of the coins. Essentially when you over-dip a coin it gets a literal chemical burn look to it (since dip is stripping a tiny layer of the metal off via chemical reaction). That's what happened on the 3CS reverse. Grade-wise it's all there but the reverse was just done a touch too long. If you're going to play with dip it's really important to be careful about the timing -- even a few seconds too long can do it.
Depending on the coin / holder / value, you might want to consider a restoration. When you get a PVC sticker that sometimes (not always) means the coin is all there but for the PVC.
Grading is a continuum and all coins have multiple grades. I don't blame them or anyone else for having different opinions at different times. Until we're all grading with AI, humans have opinions that change and grading is more art than science. PCGS thought 64 and 64+, and CAC thought 63+ and 64 at different times. Perfectly within reason and part of the process.
@Rarity7Coins i don't know or think that it was in fact cleaned but I think it just has a similar look to that of an old cleaning on an AU coin so CAC just couldn't take the risk with a sticker. I think it's a great AU example. Original look.
CAC has tougher standards than PCGS or NGC on certain coins and that's a good thing for collectors. They want to sticker/holder only the best of the best. Doesn't mean that a non-CAC coin is bad -- just that the CAC coins are premium for the grade and the highest quality.
Excellent question - sorry for not explaining more in the video. First, with mint state coins, they all start out life as 65s-70s (depending on strike & luster) and as they get jostled around in mint bags or bank rolls or change drawers or even during/just after the minting process, they acquire hits, ticks, scrapes, and other marks that bring them down, and then once they reach circulation they can get down to 58 and below. With proof coins - since they were all struck with "perfect" dies and specially prepared for collectors, there are no mint bags or rolls or things like strike or luster variations to make the difference between a 62 and a 70 -- what makes the big difference for proofs is how they were handled by collectors. In the 1800s and 1900s, it was very common for proofs to be kept in velvet boxes or coin trays or otherwise on display, and as they gathered dust they would be regularly wiped off! (I know we shudder to think about it but that's how it was). As they got wiped, their mirrored fields would take on hairlines, haze, or other impairments like that, and that's how we get PR61s, 62s, 63s, etc. So really, all proofs in the lower 60s have been cleaned at one time or another, and when you see some PR61s or 62s you can really tell! I even handled a PR64 Morgan recently that had obvious horizontal hairlines that would put any MS coin in a Details holder. When I spoke to JA about this (and the PR63 Seated Dollar in particular), he clarified that CAC's standards for proofs are that "wipes" are ok (and part of the grading process), but that those should look more like gentle overall hairlines (like the PR63 Trade Dollar in the video). When you get more concentrated signs of real abrasive cleaning, like the field of the seated dollar, that's where he draws the line between a wipe (ok for CAC) and cleaning (not CAC).
@Rarity7Coins thanks. That definitely helped me understand what you mean. I've only been collecting now for about 4 years. I found a 1878 8 tail feather morgan that looks proof like but I'm not sure about it. Could I send you some pics? Or is it too hard to tell from pictures? Either way thanks for the explanation.
The one sided view on NGC is dumb the 65 was close and I find most NGC coins are fairly graded where I find issue with NGC is in old cleanings etc or grading coin that should maybe in detail holder but they give it AU grade
There's no one-sided view -- no grade is perfect or singular. That's the biggest thing to learn about grading: All coins have multiple grades at any time. Sometimes details grades are right, sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes they're both right and wrong :)
Two Panasonic Lumix GH5 MK2s (one for the main cam, one for CoinCam). Main cam uses a Leica 10-25mm F1.7 lens, CoinCam uses a Leica 9mm F1.7 lens. I chose the Panasonic basically because it's a great camera, handles 4K60p video easily, and is reasonably priced. Everything else in that price range that I looked at (Canon & Nikon in particular) had tradeoffs that made them not ideal for video OR were way more expensive.
Noah now this is where I have a big issue with the gold Indian I can’t understand why a person would crack that coin in a 64 cac pcgs holder and send it back to pcgs but the real issue is you got John’s real opinion but was not happy with the results because it went backwards so my issue is in calling to get John rethink his opinion but if I am correct you sent it in saying it came out of 64 cac holder but John’s honest opinion was that coin was a 63+ not a 64 if that were my coin I would not want the sticker on there unless John thought it deserved it
There's no one "real" opinion -- it's really important to understand that all coins (and yes, I mean ALL coins) have multiple grades at any given time. One day you might say 65, another day you might think 64+, and another day you might think 65+. And a different person might think the same/different. So don't get hung up on one specific grading event. I don't blame any person for changing their opinion with different viewings - it's part of the process and how it happens. PCGS thought the $10 Indian was 64 at one point and 64+ at another point and I wouldn't be surprised if a grader might think 63+. Same with CAC -- 63+, 64, 64+ -- it's all on a continuum. Grading is a VERY inexact science/art - it's just all part of the process.
What is the big hang up with the OGH if a coin has PVC it will damage the coin in long run which is not very good for business as a coin person you should crack and restore but your lack of awareness is very alarming for your customers the fact you would rather keep a coin in a AU58 OGH holder versus cracking and restoring coin and preserving the coin for future over well I may lose a dollar because I bought the coin in a OGH is crazy makes me very nervous to ever buy a coin from you
"As a coin person you should crack and restore" - No, sorry I respectfully disagree. OGH holders are very collectible as a part of coin history and many folks enjoy seeing the coins in the original slabs they were encased in from 30+ years ago (same with rattlers). There are of course certain examples where a spot of "live" damage (Verdigris aka copper acetate) will start to spread, but in most cases it's just not something to worry too much about. Of course you are always entitled to do / restore / crack / whatever to the coins you own. But there's no universal rule in play here.
Appreciate the content... you're definitely going places in the numismatic community.. 😁 still watching vid as I'm commenting.. that 1869 proof seated dol. is stunning for a 63 no CAC. 🪙 life 🤪
![$100,000 Rare Coin CAC Submission LIVE Reveal [July 2024]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/atz84JAzrXk/mqdefault.jpg)
![$100,000 Rare Coin CAC Submission LIVE Reveal [July 2024]](/img/tr.png)
Thank you for this content. I appreciate the commentary and the time you took to put this video together. You are quickly becoming the UA-cam guy.
You guys are the best. I appreciate the kind words but I’ve got a long way to go before I’m the UA-cam guy! You guys are the kings and an inspiration.
This is some of the most interesting and useful CAC content on UA-cam. Thank you for taking the time to bring us along. Great job my friend.
Man, been looking forward to your next CAC sticker upload. It was nice to meet you at the Sacramento show. Thank you for your tutelage and all the best on your future submissions!
What a wonderful learning opportunity. Thanks so much for sharing!
Fascinating. I think that a simple explanation goes a long way to make us all smarter collectors. I wish that grading companies would provide info like this, as to why it made a grade, and not the next. Video was well done with care. Thanks so much!
Thanks for the kind words!
Very amazing content,it’s always nice to learn from the best. Thanks you for taking the time to create those videos.
My pleasure! Thanks for the kind words ❤❤
You found the perfect way to do CAC reveals. Very educational and fun content.
Thanks for the kind words! ❤
Great video! Helped me learn more about CAC then any video I've seen to date. Subscribed.
Noah - great that you are sharing this knowledge to all. This is good for the hobby and that JA is willing to participate with you. Big thanks and looking forward to seeing you at FUN.
Thank YOU! See ya soon :)
Entertaining as always!
This is quickly becoming my favorites coin videos to watch!!
This is cool. Thank you for sharing!
Love these videos very informative. It helps me to look more critically which will be of benefit in the future. Thanks
Great to hear! Thanks for watching and for the nice feedback.
Best coin grading video on the internet
Just found your channel, I love these videos! Subscribed so I won't miss any new uploads . Greetings from New Orleans!
Awesome!! Thanks for the kind words -- greetings from the west coast! More to come soon...
I was expecting to see a comment like "Overgraded". Instead it was "scratch/cleaning/PVC" etc. But I should assume that these were sent in by you and your buds who definitely knows their stuff and were cherry picked already. Anyhow, like I said in my previous comment, it was refreshing and very insightful to know why something didn't make the mark. I wish this kind of feedback was standard.
Great video. Spoke with you today at Baltimore show. Great type collection you picked up!
Hey, thanks!
Fantastic video other UA-camrs aren’t even close. I don’t think anyone provides nearly as much good content or commentary on slabbed coins.
Thank you so much for the support and kind words!
Very informative and some big boy coins for sure. I wish I would have gotten notes from the 4 coins I submitted in which none stickered. I assume with no notes, he just thought they were either not choice for the grade or overgraded.
It’s one of two things - either he doesn’t agree with the grade (eg overgraded) or the coin has a problem (under CAC standards) - eg old cleaning, too big a scratch, repair, etc.
Thanks for this video brother it helps to see why they don’t CAC, very helpful. I’m subscribing for future content.
Very entertaining reveal. I’m astonished that JA gave you such valuable feedback. Many, many, many submitters have been requesting this sort of response from CAC with no success. He must be mellowing in his “old age”
Ha! He's been really great about this stuff lately, and I know I'm not alone or special. Lots of collectors get the yellow/red stickers too (upon request). It's just the big dealers who send 100s/1000s of coins at a time who nobody ain't got time for :)
Chiming in I have a proof 1878 quarter that has a green bean and has a lot of hairlines
It is a 62CAM so maybe at the 62 level John is okay with hairlines but just figured I’d add my experience
Enjoyed the video. What under au grade wasn't cleaned at some point in it's life...
Hear hear!
Proof 63 looks like pf65 awsome coin
Of all the grading companies it’s certainly true that cac is the more critical.
With that, I think that previously cac’d 65 to pcgs 64 is an interesting outcome.
If I had to guess, despite generally being very conservative in their grades--perhaps seeing it again had them agreeing with pcgs’s grade after another looky see. Sort of like seeing his notes indicating why your submissions didn’t cac sticker and when you reviewed a little closer. Then said “yeah, I can see now why it went that way”. I think the same applies to that specific coin. Which is kind of cool to see an acceptance of getting it slightly wrong versus just nonchalantly placing a gold bean on it “just because”.
Also, thank youuuu for these videos. An absolute awesome educational ride to help decide what to send for beans and take just another minute or two to find that one thing that may save a submission lol
Did he have feedback on the 1862 3C “burnt”?
Yes! I called him and spoke about a few of the coins. Essentially when you over-dip a coin it gets a literal chemical burn look to it (since dip is stripping a tiny layer of the metal off via chemical reaction). That's what happened on the 3CS reverse. Grade-wise it's all there but the reverse was just done a touch too long. If you're going to play with dip it's really important to be careful about the timing -- even a few seconds too long can do it.
My last CAC sub came back with one red sticker for PVC unfortunately
Depending on the coin / holder / value, you might want to consider a restoration. When you get a PVC sticker that sometimes (not always) means the coin is all there but for the PVC.
I bought the 1885 cc. your price was far below a lower graded vf 20 cac on a stacks bowers auction. excellent coin
Amazing Richard! You have good taste :) Thanks for the business.
So they put a green sticker on it as a 64 but then thought it was a 63+ XD
Grading is a continuum and all coins have multiple grades. I don't blame them or anyone else for having different opinions at different times. Until we're all grading with AI, humans have opinions that change and grading is more art than science. PCGS thought 64 and 64+, and CAC thought 63+ and 64 at different times. Perfectly within reason and part of the process.
@ I definitely agree it was just funny
You have amazing photography - camera and lighting. Would you describe for us ?
Hood up it was in a NGC 65 holder but goes to pcgs comes back a 65+ thought ngc over grades coins
I had a feeling that 89cc would be called cleaned of some sort. Lovely coin however.
Yeah I had a gut about it. It's got a nice original look and I really (still do) like the coin, but I had my fears.
@Rarity7Coins i don't know or think that it was in fact cleaned but I think it just has a similar look to that of an old cleaning on an AU coin so CAC just couldn't take the risk with a sticker. I think it's a great AU example. Original look.
Hi i watch u from barbados all the time how can pcgs give u a straight great n cac says different they grade hard
CAC has tougher standards than PCGS or NGC on certain coins and that's a good thing for collectors. They want to sticker/holder only the best of the best. Doesn't mean that a non-CAC coin is bad -- just that the CAC coins are premium for the grade and the highest quality.
I don't get what you mean by all proofs have been cleaned. Otherwise, they would be 68s or 69s.
Excellent question - sorry for not explaining more in the video. First, with mint state coins, they all start out life as 65s-70s (depending on strike & luster) and as they get jostled around in mint bags or bank rolls or change drawers or even during/just after the minting process, they acquire hits, ticks, scrapes, and other marks that bring them down, and then once they reach circulation they can get down to 58 and below.
With proof coins - since they were all struck with "perfect" dies and specially prepared for collectors, there are no mint bags or rolls or things like strike or luster variations to make the difference between a 62 and a 70 -- what makes the big difference for proofs is how they were handled by collectors. In the 1800s and 1900s, it was very common for proofs to be kept in velvet boxes or coin trays or otherwise on display, and as they gathered dust they would be regularly wiped off! (I know we shudder to think about it but that's how it was). As they got wiped, their mirrored fields would take on hairlines, haze, or other impairments like that, and that's how we get PR61s, 62s, 63s, etc. So really, all proofs in the lower 60s have been cleaned at one time or another, and when you see some PR61s or 62s you can really tell! I even handled a PR64 Morgan recently that had obvious horizontal hairlines that would put any MS coin in a Details holder.
When I spoke to JA about this (and the PR63 Seated Dollar in particular), he clarified that CAC's standards for proofs are that "wipes" are ok (and part of the grading process), but that those should look more like gentle overall hairlines (like the PR63 Trade Dollar in the video). When you get more concentrated signs of real abrasive cleaning, like the field of the seated dollar, that's where he draws the line between a wipe (ok for CAC) and cleaning (not CAC).
@Rarity7Coins thanks. That definitely helped me understand what you mean. I've only been collecting now for about 4 years. I found a 1878 8 tail feather morgan that looks proof like but I'm not sure about it. Could I send you some pics? Or is it too hard to tell from pictures? Either way thanks for the explanation.
@@biggiethecat4896 Absolutely -- noah@rarity7.com
@@Rarity7Coins thanks. I'll send it on my lunch break
The one sided view on NGC is dumb the 65 was close and I find most NGC coins are fairly graded where I find issue with NGC is in old cleanings etc or grading coin that should maybe in detail holder but they give it AU grade
There's no one-sided view -- no grade is perfect or singular. That's the biggest thing to learn about grading: All coins have multiple grades at any time. Sometimes details grades are right, sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes they're both right and wrong :)
What do you use for your camera setup?
Two Panasonic Lumix GH5 MK2s (one for the main cam, one for CoinCam). Main cam uses a Leica 10-25mm F1.7 lens, CoinCam uses a Leica 9mm F1.7 lens. I chose the Panasonic basically because it's a great camera, handles 4K60p video easily, and is reasonably priced. Everything else in that price range that I looked at (Canon & Nikon in particular) had tradeoffs that made them not ideal for video OR were way more expensive.
Noah now this is where I have a big issue with the gold Indian I can’t understand why a person would crack that coin in a 64 cac pcgs holder and send it back to pcgs but the real issue is you got John’s real opinion but was not happy with the results because it went backwards so my issue is in calling to get John rethink his opinion but if I am correct you sent it in saying it came out of 64 cac holder but John’s honest opinion was that coin was a 63+ not a 64 if that were my coin I would not want the sticker on there unless John thought it deserved it
There's no one "real" opinion -- it's really important to understand that all coins (and yes, I mean ALL coins) have multiple grades at any given time. One day you might say 65, another day you might think 64+, and another day you might think 65+. And a different person might think the same/different. So don't get hung up on one specific grading event. I don't blame any person for changing their opinion with different viewings - it's part of the process and how it happens. PCGS thought the $10 Indian was 64 at one point and 64+ at another point and I wouldn't be surprised if a grader might think 63+. Same with CAC -- 63+, 64, 64+ -- it's all on a continuum. Grading is a VERY inexact science/art - it's just all part of the process.
What is the big hang up with the OGH if a coin has PVC it will damage the coin in long run which is not very good for business as a coin person you should crack and restore but your lack of awareness is very alarming for your customers the fact you would rather keep a coin in a AU58 OGH holder versus cracking and restoring coin and preserving the coin for future over well I may lose a dollar because I bought the coin in a OGH is crazy makes me very nervous to ever buy a coin from you
"As a coin person you should crack and restore" - No, sorry I respectfully disagree. OGH holders are very collectible as a part of coin history and many folks enjoy seeing the coins in the original slabs they were encased in from 30+ years ago (same with rattlers). There are of course certain examples where a spot of "live" damage (Verdigris aka copper acetate) will start to spread, but in most cases it's just not something to worry too much about. Of course you are always entitled to do / restore / crack / whatever to the coins you own. But there's no universal rule in play here.
Appreciate the content... you're definitely going places in the numismatic community.. 😁 still watching vid as I'm commenting.. that 1869 proof seated dol. is stunning for a 63 no CAC.
🪙 life 🤪
Thanks for the kind words!
Great coins! I just subbed! I do VAM'S on my channel. Wonderful numismatics here and lots of great feedback