The Inconsistency of Rhett's Critique of Christianity
Вставка
- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- In this video Gavin Ortlund analyzes Rhett McLaughlin's Deconstruction of Christianity. See the original video here: • Rhett Responds to Bein...
Truth Unites (www.truthunites.org) exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Church.
SUPPORT:
Tax Deductible Support: truthunites.org/donate/
Patreon: / truthunites
FOLLOW:
Website: www.truthunites.org
Twitter: / gavinortlund
Facebook: / truthunitespage
MY ACADEMIC WORK:
truthunites.org/mypublications/
PODCAST:
anchor.fm/truth-unites
DISCORD SERVER ON PROTESTANTISM
Striving Side By Side: / discord
CREATIVE DIRECTION: Clau Gutiérrez (www clau.uk)
CHECK OUT SOME BOOKS:
www.amazon.com/Makes-Sense-Wo...
www.amazon.com/Theological-Re...
www.amazon.com/Finding-Right-...
www.amazon.com/Retrieving-Aug...
00:00 - Introduction
00:52 - Atheism and Magic
02:43 - Problems with Evangelicalism?
03:59 - Christianity as a False God
05:20 - God as Unknowable
05:56 - The Telescope Metaphor
09:00 - The Problem of Inconsistency
20:05 - Christianity is Big Enough For You
20:36 - Don't Question Motives - Розваги
The theology may be bad but those dudes have great hair.
That's their best quality
😂
Hair is a great tell. Never trust great hair.
One does. The other looks like ones lesbian aunt
Looks greasy and self aggrandizing to me.
I think the most frustrating thing about this for a guy like me is that those of us who said theology matters, deep thought matters, and asked for deeper teaching said this would happen years ago. Often times, I find that church leaders say "the laity cant handle x", end up far underestimating the laity, and then scratch their heads over deconstruction when the faith many deconstructed from was shallow to begin with. But lots of us still get told, "well the laity cant handle Cyril of Jerusalem or that kind of content" (when he gave those lectures to catechumenates!).
Well said. Such a paucity of understanding of the rich theology and catechesis of the historical church in the modern church.
'The Laity'.
So only 'super Christians', i.e., the Clerical class, have the understanding of God's Word? Nonsense. Some arrogant fool in flowing robes, gold and jewels is not who God meant us to follow unquestioningly. We are supposed to study Scripture throughout our lives and check what man say against it. You don't just trust in the say-so of other flawed humans, you go directly to the primary source. God's own inerrant word is for everyone. Either you believe the bible is literally God speaking, or you don't, but certainly, nothing man does is trustworthy, only God is trust worthy.
Christ said to Seek, and you will find. He didn't come to encourage the elite clerical class, but to admonish them for their arrogance, ignorance of the Word and hypocrisy. Keeping people ignorant of God's word, and often rewriting it to serve the will of men, is not the way to keep people in line with God. Human beings will always question and go astray because they are sinful, hopelessly so. Only through Grace are we saved and only with the Holy Spirit do we understand anything.
I think this happens from one generation to another. Maybe not literally from one to the next, but this issue happens probably not because somebody lacks theology. Perhaps it could play a part, but I think the issue is the flesh is weak. People always come in hoping the church is going to solve their problems and they may even feel like it has on some things, but then there is that one thing that inevitably leads them to leave the faith. People come and go whenever not because they understand why they come, but because of some sort of social obligation. Not recognizing that we live in a world that stuff like this is expected. We are placing faith in our abilities to maintain what we know and be able to instill it from generation to generation. When scripture does not back that up at all. One generation believes in God and the next rejects God. Our knowledge of theology might be useful for those who are prone to those things, but most of the time people tend to reject what they learned during tough times. Church is usually just a fad for people. Especially when people forget that salvation has nothing to do with works you do. When the results of the good works don't match expectations, people just get mad and forget that failure was expected. Not making excuses, but just pointing out what scripture shows.
Amen to that! When people say "the laity can't handle it" what they mean is that they think the laity are uneducated and underinvested in their faith. Anytime that is the case the proper response is NEVER to water down the sermons and cut more theologically challenging concepts, but instead to revamp and double down on including it in order to bring the laity up to a higher standard, if they were even deficient to begin with.
And besides, if rich theology and deep study of the faith prompts some people to lose interest, the issue is with them, not with the teaching, and it is they who need to be corrected, rather than the majority who need to be brought down to the level of the lowest common denominator.
@@NoName-oy2tk but if the flesh is weak, why are there differences between people with regard to deconstructing or not? I'm not arguing that there is no proclivity to sin, but if you hold that to be universal, that means EVERYONE deals with it, yet not all leave the church...thus, there have to be a number of factors going on here, unless you want to argue some have stronger 'flesh' than others.
I love that you covered this
Rhett and Link have a special place in my heart for their ability to make my family laugh in the darkest time we ever went through. When Rhett's deconstruction came out, of course it hurt my heart - the deconstruction conversation was common in my feed and friend group, and it just never got easier to wrestle with.
Thank you for addressing Rhett's journey. Walking through the process brought a sense of peace that I didn't know was missing (seems dramatic for a UA-camr, but creators can have an undeniable impact on us). I'm learning a lot through your compassionate and truth-committed critiques on how culture is viewing our faith, and how to have a ready answer. ❤
Listening to that original deconstruction immediately took me from "going out of my way to watch and listen to everything Rhett and Link are involved with" to "barely remembering they exist", completely subconsciously.
Get some distance from Christian apologetics & it looks like this:
"Is There a Satanic Symbol on Oreos?"
ua-cam.com/video/BZoXKBLub7M/v-deo.htmlsi=zdJwDqWc_OmW4y87
It hurt my heart too. I started watching them years before they became huge on UA-cam. I watch them here and there now but not like I used to. I loved their light, clean humor, and as a southerner, I could relate to them. Now I see Hollywood’s influence which is sad.
@@micheleheard8000 what do you mean hollywoods influence? They were always fairly progressive. If you mean them leaving the church, Rhett had questions and doubts before they moved and after they moved both of them were still Christian’s that believed fervently. Rhett just sought out answers and isn’t satisfied with the responses, or lack thereof.
I really appreciate you jumping on these cultural topics. You're able to speak into these things without being click-baity, mean or divisive. I like how you can state that you disagree without demeaning the other person. It's awesome and refreshing.
You are an excellent example of how to disagree charitably.
It's just as contradictory as:
"Absolute truth doesn't exist."
These videos are a source of great comfort and motivation for me. I have found myself having a better outlook and gaining another dimension of understanding regarding some of these questions. God bless!
glad to hear that!
I hope that Rhett not only becomes a Christian but a great saint.
Keep praying for him! I'll join you!
There's a chance he really was and still is. I left the faith for a long time and God brought me back.
@@ihiohoh2708someone openly denying Christ is not a Christian, hate to burst your bubble my friend.
@reacher So you think it's impossible for a child to openly deny Christ? What about Peter? What about the story of the Prodigal son? I can't know his heart. What I do know for a fact is people can leave the faith and come back.
All believers are saints
I think another problem here is he is assuming Christians don't also affirm God is also, to a large extent, veiled in mystery. Christians do claim God is knowable and He has revealed Himself to us, but He is not knowable in every way. He is certainly greater than anything we can conceive -- sort of similar to what Anselm was getting at.
This hits home, not only because I’m going through my own semi-deconstruction (positively!), but primarily because I know I’ve been the cause of disunity in the past similar to what Rhett experienced.
Your channel Gavin not only gives me more personal gospel assurance, but is also central to helping me in my calling, how I cultivate unity and help enable gospel assurance. Keep it up!
I appreciate what you shared in this video. Personally, I used to watch Rhett and Link quite a lot, but after a while their content went in a direction I just wasn't interested in. When they started coming out with the deconstruction stuff I couldn't really bring myself to watch, though I was unsurprised by it. I appreciate their honesty. Better to be an honest agnostic (or whatever they are) than a pretend Christian. Sometimes I think we try too hard to convince people to stay when maybe they really need to leave in order to see things from the other side. If we really trust God we can trust that He will show himself to those who honestly and humbly seek him. Let's pray we all do that, Christian or not.
"Do not judge motives, bring your arguments"... Good advice.
I think the problem is, when moved by a motive first - reason and arguments don’t move the needle and will be continually disregarded. This is why a motive is pointed out.
Christ judge motives, Pharisees with using the house of the Lord as a money changer system, making people pay for sacrifices.
Christ will also judge Christians 2 Corinthians 5:10
Christ will judge the world on His 2nd coming Psalms 67:4
Judging someone's motives is essential to correct them if they are wrong. Christ knows each persons heart, and its "desperately wicked, who can know it?" .
Christ is the ultimate end to all arguments, what he says (and Pauls teachings) we as Christians should strive to follow.
It always brings a smile to my face when you post a video Gavin. Thank you your videos have been a huge help through my doubts! And thanks to God
Thank you Gavin. Always find your analysis of the issues very helpful and consistent with the title of this channel. I'm thankful for your online ministry. God bless.
It is extremely easy to fall into deconstruction these days. I started my Christian journey around two years ago now and I’m not ashamed (well, maybe a little) to say I’ve deconstructed twice since then. I’ve come back both times, but with a different perspective on faith and Christ in general. My first deconstruction was caused by emotional doubt and struggle with sin, my second deconstruction was caused by intellectual doubt concerning modern critical scholarship and other philosophical questions like other religions, everyone thinks they’re right, miracles, divine hiddenness/suffering, etc. As someone who was not raised in the faith, I’ve found the Christian journey to be, for lack of a better term, very frustrating. There’s just enough evidence for Christ that I continue to remain in the envelope, and I do truly deep down feel it to be true; it pulls on my heart. But there’s so much assault on faith from our modern society that it feels like a constant state of drowning, or treading water against an unending tide of waves. It feels impossible to navigate what’s true and what isn’t anymore, and I have to admit when feeling deep doubt and uncertainty, God’s mysterious and partially revealed nature can easily make you think he’s turned his back on you. It is a constant intellectual concern of mine that maybe I am just ignoring the obvious: that God is truly not real and the very dark and horrible and unenchanted world we seemingly live in is just that: dark, horrible, and unenchanted.
I understand where people like Rhett are coming from. The urge to turn my brain off and ignore the tough philosophical and theological questions is intense. I’ve had more anxiety and distress caused to me by my struggle to find God than I had when I was just a normal guy living in ignorance and contentment. The problem I ultimately have though, is now knowing what I know, the atheistic/non-belief/spiritual-but-not-religious worldview is just as unsustainable in my opinion. It’s easy to attack faith as a nonbeliever, because you have no burden yourself to uphold your own system of beliefs, because you don’t really have any. That being said, knowing what I know now, I can’t just turn my brain off and go back to living in contentment as a non believer. It’s truly a rock and a hard place, and I can see people like Rhett struggling with the same things as me. You can tell he isn’t happy with his deconstruction by the way he uses some fairly complex philosophy to try and defend it and support his new position. Once you delve deep into very tough philosophical questions, and take a stance on them, it’s impossible to just pretend like you never did that and go back to where you were before. Maybe with time, but I haven’t been able to do it.
So that’s just some random thoughts on deconstruction. It’s easy, very easy and I think that’s why you see it so much these days. Life is hard and it only gets harder, and taking the mental energy to examine all of this stuff while you’re dealing with so much already feels like it will literally kill you. I also actually agree with Rhett fairly strongly with his views on American evangelicalism. Particularly on the emphasis on personal experience and emotion. As someone who has never really felt the presence of god in the way many evangelicals describe it, it makes you just want to give up. It’s very disheartening to put it plainly. It also just seems like an unhelpful circular argument when I interact with a lot of these people. Haven’t felt God? You haven’t opened your heart enough! On repeat. Again, it makes you resentful inside and once you start feeling resentment it’s only downhill from there, in my experience. Sorry for the mini-rant, I just saw this video and felt a connection with both sides of the argument and wanted to express how frustrating it is to be a God seeking person in our modern skeptical society.
Your videos have helped to keep me on a somewhat straight path, among other things, so I appreciate the work you do. They aren’t overbearing and you don’t make any claims that aren’t at least somewhat defensible, so I find the videos to be a good starting place for issues that burden me.
I think legalism and American fundamentalism found in many American Baptist churches are a big reason for deconstruction. It’s a false gospel.
@friendlycrimmy8848 I have had some similar experiences recently in life, especially with what you described in the first paragraph or two. I have found a few things to be helpful and one of them that I haven't personally seen advocated anywhere is this: it's ok to admit that you want God to exist.
Doing so doesn't mean you've thrown in the towel on rational inquiry or that you cease to be able to reliably assess arguments and evidence. It just means being honest with yourself: there is no neutral starting ground from which you can move toward any worldview.
Inspiration for this came from seeing someone else admit the inverse, specifically Thomas Nagel, "I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that."
I pray that this helps you too as it was helpful to me.
@friendlycrimmy8848 I have had some similar experiences recently in life, especially with what you described in the first paragraph or two. I have found a few things to be helpful and one of them that I haven't personally seen advocated anywhere is this: it's ok to admit that you want God to exist.
Doing so doesn't mean you've thrown in the towel on rational inquiry or that you cease to be able to reliably assess arguments and evidence. It just means being honest with yourself: there is no neutral starting ground from which you can move toward any worldview.
Inspiration for this came from seeing someone else admit the inverse, specifically Thomas Nagel, "I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that."
I pray that this helps you too as it was helpful to me.
“I understand where they are coming from” amazing how no one paid attention to the part about attacking/assuming motives.
@@koolarooo unnecessary and rude comment. and frankly you are mischaracterizing what that statement is meant to convey.
Dr. Gavin this was really helpful. I appreciate what you do so much. God bless you brother!
So cool to see you interacting with this!
Dr. Ortlund, thank you for your videos. I recently started watching many of them, and I am grateful to have found someone who is both Christian and has an academic background. There was an anti-intellectualism I sensed in some Protestant circles, which turned me off as a Catholic interested in church history.
Anyway, I have been trying to get back in communion with the Catholic Church. Currently, my marriage is invalid, and I’ve been unable to fully participate in church life until the situation is rectified. I found myself jumping through hoops and praying some priest who I never met approved some paperwork for me to be back in the Church’s good graces. I’ve been so anxious about it all, and I noticed that I was essentially putting my relationship with God on hold in the meantime. It was about this time that I stumbled upon your videos. I appreciate the scholasticism of the Catholic Church, but I honestly had no idea that church history wasn’t so black and white and wasn’t solely in the favor of Catholicism.
It gave me great peace to begin to conclude that Jesus, I think, transcends the physical boundaries of a denomination and we can meet him where we are. Thank you for the great work you are doing!
I'm sorry it's been challenging for you!
OK, time to get Rhett on the podcast.
Listened all the way through, and loved your assessment.
I love the analogy of leaving the attic but staying in the house. I personally went through two phases of “deconstruction”. Using the same analogy… One where I almost “left the house” for another, and one where, after I determined the bones of the house were good, I decided to simply repair the parts of my belief that were shaky and rotten.
Growing up in modern American Christianity, I felt like I missed out on a lot of needed context. I went to church every Sunday and Wednesday, and I knew the “Bible Stories”, but looking back, it was all so shallow and surface level. I never heard about other expressions of the faith. I never heard about historical or archaeological evidence that supports the faith. And if I dared to ask questions, I was usually shut down and chastised for having “weak faith”.
I don’t think I was alone in this experience, and nowadays I am happy to say that I see more encouragement to ask questions and seek answers. I’ve seen not only my faith strengthen because of this, but the strengthening of others. I’m not sure if that is because I’ve found better church homes, or if people have learned and improved from past mistakes. But either way, I feel encouraged.
There is a wealth of knowledge and proof out there for those who are seeking… and I’m so thankful for UA-cam channels such as this, because they continue to bless me with knowledge and perspectives I never knew existed before.
Keep up the excellent work Dr Ortlund
thanks so much!
Is it not ok to say “I don’t know”? Or “I’m not convinced”? Does Rhett not have that right?
It is absolutely ok to question. How else can you find the Truth?
Yes, but he's not saying _only_ that. He is making the positive claim that most/all religious systems, especially Christianity, are preposterous. Which is a claim that can be criticized.
Thanks for addressing this Gavin! God Bless!
The Lord bless you and your work Gavin. The Lord is clearly giving you wisdom to see through arguments used by those "deconstructing". As always, you do it in a kind, winsome way. I pray your videos reach those who need them the most.
thanks!
I think Rhett misses his own point when he denies that he is advancing his own truth claims.
I was a listener when Rhett and Link moved to California, and I noticed a change in tone and attitude in both guys, and thought even before their "announcement" that they were changing according to the attitudes of the new place.
Gave me the impression of adapting to whatever the local religious attitude was, and explanations of why followed after. Just my impression.
Sounds like attacking motives maybe?
@tbrickman what do you mean ?
@@masterjose8483He is talking about Gavin asking us not to attack Rhett's motives. It's a fair thing to ask.
BUT for Rhett to get touchy about this is a little unfair. He has said anything number of things that seem to reveal some of his probable motives for abandoning his faith.
It is also tempting to want to suggest motives because Rhett makes it sound like his decision was entirely fact based when human decisions are rarely ever completely devoid of emotion or bias.
All that said, I understand the temptation to want to deconstruct. But as Gavin has pointed out, the power and beauty of faith, the love and sacrifice in the gospels, and the sweet purity of all that is sacred, once grasped, is hard to leave. I can't imagine life without God.
Rhett may one day get tired of being homeless.
@@br.m I made a comment addressing Ruslan's take on this that you probably won't agree with, but it relates strongly to what you said. Lack of discipleship in the modern church...
@@tbrickman
Let's just say I think it's easy for people to develop a rationale after a decision is made. To want something without referring to logic and after explain it logically. And I know I do this myself. Often unknowingly.
Like if you were the guy in the movie Momento (is that the name?) Where he has only 5-10 minutes of memory. But he himself worked out a way to have a warped memory -- I think we as humans frequently do this. We want something, initially just wanting no matter what, later making stories why it was inevitable.
We all do this, maybe later don't know it.
I'm not trying to analyze motives, just reporting what I saw both guys doing at the time it was happening. Bickering, being unhappy with the other guy -- I even wondered if they'd split as partners once and awhile. It was enough I quit watching even before they announced they no longer believed.
Helpful as always. Thanks Gavin!
For a while I was fooled by people like Rhett - likable, kind, charismatic people who claimed this sort of humble worldview while actually speaking from a place of intellectual arrogance. I thought agnosticism was the only respectable, intelligent worldview in the modern age.
Then Jordan Peterson’s archetypal analysis of the Bible got me to take a second look at it. I began to see that there were deeper undercurrents of truth running thru the entire thing - currents that weren’t present in any of the other religions I had poked my nose into.
Then I found CS Lewis’s essay “Myth Become Fact” and it rocked my entire worldview. It was like everything Jordan Peterson was brushing up against, summarized in a few gorgeous pages.
Then the book of Ecclesiastes smacked me right in the chest. It was like seeing the nihilistic battleground of my heart, described by a holy text thousands of years old. I never knew the Bible had anything to say about that, let alone offer answers that struck me as wise, comforting, and true…
Then I began listening to people like John Lennox and Ken Ham. I began to realize I had inherited materialistic assumptions about the world, and suddenly I could see the glaring holes in the doctrines of the New Atheists and the deconstructionists.
Then Tim Mackie’s sermon on the making of the Bible gave me unprecedented confidence in it as a reliable text… I began to see anew its miraculous claims. What if the Bible really is what it claims to be? God reaching down to humanity, in an epic story unfolding across space and time, documented and preserved in the Word, against all likelihood?
And when I allowed myself to entertain it as true - an unbelievable peace and joy settled into me. A wondrous antidote to the nihilism, despair, and emptiness I had struggled with for years.
I am still on this journey… I am hungrily learning about apologetics and the historicity of Jesus… but for the first time, I have confidence that my intellectual curiosity leads to one destination - the truth of Jesus Christ. I can sense “the hounds of heaven” chasing me down, as CS Lewis put it. Now I am reading the Bible almost every day… to pursue the transformation of my heart, along with my mind.
Sorry for the super long comment. I just wanted to share some of the most influential sources that have transformed my thinking over the last few years, for the better.
I’m going to try looking for the Tim Makie sermon you mentioned. Thanks.
Thank you for sharing. I love to read about testimonies such as yours. God bless you!
Such an amazing testimony! Praising God for you!
I am so thankful for discovering this channel. Excellent video. I thank you, and I thank the Lord for the good work He has done in you and through you!
Great video! Thanks for sharing
Thankful for you Gavin, I hope Rhett will see this and talk with you
Thank you for all the great ideas and intellectual break downs of so many different intricate issues. Your compassion for all people is intoxicating and your intellectual prowess is just as formidable. Praise Jesus!
I so very appreciate how you are able to talk about topics such as this without being driven by emotion. It is so clear that you have a humble and genuine heart posture and it truly is a skill to be so tactful and respectful in light of sensitive topics and strong opinions. Thank you for your ministry!
The problem comes when Gavin "humbly" denies half the human race the right to pastor a church, or "humbly" denies the same right of Christian gay people to form lifelong loving relationships. It's only humble when the discussion is academic and has little bearing on the actual lives of other Christians.
@@EnglishMike Sounds like your issue is with the Bible, not Gavin
Thanks for this, Gavin. Catholic friend here, who loves your videos and your charitable sharing of Christianity.
I really hope and pray, that you will get Rhett on the show! ♥
Oh yeah this would be great
I was where Rhett was for a while. I could not deny God, but I was angry with him. Eventually I worked my way back. There is hope for Rhett.
Same here. I was 14-15 when my faith started deconstructing. This was due to high levels of legalism and moralism in modern evangelical circles that drove me away from it among other things. It wasn't until my mid-late 20's that I started to come back.
LOL. It's always assumed that people who deconstruct are "angry with God". If so, why didn't he declare himself fully atheist? He didn't say anything about being angry. He didn't reject the god concept.
The "they must be angry" claim that is used against all people who reject religions is the oldest and weakest argument.
@@jwagnermail I spoke of my anger.
@@jwagnermail I'm pretty sure I heard Rhett say he had an angry atheist phase. He didn't provide a lot of details.
I assume he meant he reached a point where he was mad at God and wanted to simply walk away.
@@ihiohoh2708 similar story to me there, brother. I was bullied alot in high school and very much lost my walk. I wouldn't say I ever stopped believing in God, but Christianity made little sense when I would read the teachings of Jesus but not see them reflected in Christians around me - my parents in particular were rather unhappy with the company I began to keep (essentially, I hung out with "bad kids" because they didn't bully me, and they protected me).
Now I'm 34, married, my wife and I decided to devote our lives to Christ, we got baptised, I'm doing a Diploma in Theology, and those "bad kids" my parents didn't want me hanging out with? They're all asking questions, some want to be baptised, and we have a small bible study group on Friday nights where we used to all drink and smoke weed and party.
Thanks for your thoughtful, compassionate responses and your extensive scholarship to provide us a fair perspective for the viewpoints we encounter. I pray God continues to use your willingness to learn and dialogue to build up and love others 🙏❤️
Such a helpful reflection. Thank you for sharing!
Rhett's making a truth claim, but to him it's not a truth claim. This is funny. I never knew him though. God bless you for the video ❤✝️🙏
I preached on bearing false testimony today as part of a series on the ten Commandments. Refraining from ascribing motives to other people's actions was one of my major application points.
calvinism bears false witness to God The Most High. Disgraceful its not confronted more. Fortunately its being exposed more everyday.
These videos are such a blessing!
I’m so excited for this video
Rhett and link in their first coming out. I was scared and then two years later had my own deconversion which allowed me to know and recover from religious indoctrination.
Glad you’re recovering. Never stop questioning things and the world around you. Those who wish to shut down inquiry are afraid
2010 called and "The Emergent Church" wants its Apophatic-only Theology back
When Rhett and Link published their apostasy podcasts I was working at Awana and let me tell you: it shook the kid’s ministry world. I’ve always wanted to hear a proper response to them (despite the fact that I never found either of their stories compelling).
Are you on the Discord? Would like to hear more about this from your perspective. My impression (I'm more Young Adult than Youth now but was doing both at the time they announced) was that they were about 3-5 years behind the Exvangelical movement, nothing they said was new to me (but I was probably unusual on being familiar with it) and by the time they 'came out' their comments were pretty ridiculous considering how overtly dogmatic and religious our secular civil religion had become.
There is a massive lengthy discussion on this from the channel SentinelApologetics, if that is the kinda thing you were looking for.
Their stories are THEIR stories.
@@KennyVert …and?
They posted them publicly, they are public figures - are you saying no one should be allowed to discuss (and as Gavin did here, invite them to discuss themselves)?
@@lafamigliabazzani499apologies for the delay! I am. Was traveling last week. Let me know if you still wanted to connect regarding this!
I like what you said about facing your fears and getting to the bottom of the barrel. I've been a Christian since 2004. Until 2012 I was confident in my faith. I was rock ribbed when it came to doubts. I just believed God. In 2012 doubts started pouring in and it's been a rough ride since then. At first I was panicked, I thought I was losing my faith. Since the start in 2012 it's been a game of Whac-A-Mole. When I defeat one major doubt, another one takes it's place. It's exhausting and each one comes on with new strength. I've learned to live with the fear and doubt and plod along but it does sap my spiritual energy.
Satan attacks - we were told it would be so. We're told to wear the full armor of the Lord, and none of is, or very few of us do. We've got to keep up our spiritual health in order to fight and win against the evil one's onslaught. God Bless you brother.
Sounds like you could be dealing with some sort of OCD to be honest. Are you sure some of these thoughts are your own or are just intrusive thoughts that blow up?
Also, is it at all possible your theology could be causing these doubts? For example, does your pastor's preaching cause you to doubt your salvation or anything like that?
Excellent! Thank you. About to give a talk on doubt at an apologetics conference and this is a helpful addition. Plan to show this to my 11th-graders, too!
Great video!!
Sometimes I feel like the odd man out by always having faith in Christ and never really having a “deconstruction moment.” Not to say my faith is the same now but there’s never been a time in my life I would say I didn’t have it
Thats not a bad thing there are no good forms of "deconstruction" it is always every single time in the context of losing faith or being deceived by one of the many deceptions of the times.
Thankful for you Dr. Ortlund
Would love to see you chat to Rhett about this
What I love about my house is that it’s built on the firm foundation of Jesus Christ. I know why it stands and I know it can withstand anything. I have an eternal life of perfect living with a holy God ahead on me, why would I ever abandon that?
Gavin, thank you for spreading the Truth. You do an excellent job.
As for the unknowability of God, Christianity talks that way, too. The way the Eastern Orthodox Church describes this is that God is unknowable in his essence but known to us in his energies - that is, his activity in the world, his revelation to us.
As for the discussion of the fruit of the Spirit, I recently heard a story about a people group who, when they first heard the story of Jesus, they thought Judas was the hero, because they valued betrayal. So, I think Rhett's values are placed by God (Rom 1) and already influenced by Christianity.
I'd love to get a source on that. It's almost unimaginable to me for any group of people to survive if they value betrayal over cooperation
@@joshuadonahue5871 It was referenced by a lecturer in the anthropology class I'm taking. It comes from Don Richardson's book *The Peace Child*. Richardson worked in Irian Jaya in the 1960s.
@@joelbecker5389 Thanks!
God can't be fully knowable, since if He could be, He could be contained by a finite vessel (a human brain). And it is one of the first and most essential doctrines of Christianity that Creator God is infinite in power and knowledge.
Great video, thanks! It reminds me of part of Tim Keller's book, "The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism"
Rhett says he doesn't "live in a house", which means he is homeless. Okay, fair enough. However, even a homeless person has a specific environment that is objectively different than those who live in houses, and he is claiming his environment is the one everyone should enter. He thinks it avoids the problem, but really it's just jumping out of the frying pan, and into the fire.
Or maybe from a house with walls and a roof to a house with neither walls, nor a roof. Rhet may not see it that way, but he's still in a house, just not the one he exited.
@@wispfire2545 I actually think the “different environment” analogy works better here, as even “outside” is not the same environment as inside a house. It’s just an analogy, you have to read into what it’s saying. It is *essentially* saying there is no difference.
@@wispfire2545 It also works better, because there are extra problems that arise from stepping into an environment that is TOO open ended.
In short, everyone has presuppositions. The question is just then, is yours internally consistent?
He’s free from the houses. But now he’s in the wilderness. Like the Israelites in the Dessert. You can see the gears shifting. It’s like when Nietzche said how the modern world “killed” God, now we don’t have a Sun to orbit around. We don’t know what UP and DOWN are.
“Be a good person” and “make good decisions” isn’t enough. Even now he’s speaking with a Christian mentality. He needs to understand. “Good” by who’s metric? By popular vote? By the Mob? Because that’s how Germans got Nazi Germany.
I hope Rhett’s faith becomes stronger than ever. Pray for him. He can be a strong soldier for God.
I applaud Gavin for trying to steel-man Rhett before critiquing his views. I think this kind of charity should be shown more on youtube and other social media with those we differ. Rhett is willing to admit he may be wrong about his beliefs and I don't think many Christians (or Muslims, etc..) will admit that they may be wrong about their faith.(Not denying that there are some but I don't think it is the norm) I think Rhett makes this point near the end of his video where he talks about the difference between his faith and most religious faith. I think intellectual humility where one is willing to admit they may be wrong, about their strongest beliefs, even though they feel certain about them.
The way I see it is if God 1. doesn't exist, or 2. doesn't want to reveal him(or its)self, all questions about God are pointless. A God that doesn't want to be seen is further out of reach than traveling between parallel universes with a bicycle made of coconuts.
If God does exist AND wants to communicate then the question of God actually matters, and any means that God could conceivably use are on the table. Including ambiguous information through poking at the things that God has made, but also perhaps through specificity of what is true through direct communication and/or transmission of the written word. No one can say the latter has proved an ineffective method for the spread of religions of all kinds. Seems weird that a God that wants to reveal himself would do so only through ambiguity.
God reveals Himself by His handiwork is all around us, from the microscopic world to the vastness of space. And people who remain blind to it insist it just invented itself.
@Nighthawkinlight none believe would make up anything to not believe in god, for some I get the church hurt them but like I said it was the church and God already reviled himself to use with Jesus and his creation including you, peace be with you 🙏
"When in doubt, tell the truth. It will confound your enemies and astound your friends." -Mark Twain
Thanks for making this video. Sadly, Rhett and Link have led so many young people away from the church over the last few years.
Thank you. You have stated one of my problems with how they handled their falling away. Deconstruction is just a current way of saying that.
So you don't believe that people who deconstruct are genuinely seeking the truth?
Thank goodness for them. So many young people will be able to live their lives happily and free of the oppression of the American Evangelical Church.
I dont not think Ive liked a person Ive disagreed with (on few points mind you) more than Dr. Ortlund. What a charitable critique.
Hi Gavin. Not sure if you'll read this, but if you do, thankyou for all that you do.
I do have a question, do you have somewhere a deeper analysis/defence of irenicism? I'm very interested and attracted by it but I do see so many different approaches to Christian communication, even in the Bible sometimes(it seems). I would love to hear you unpack your thoughts on communication and what a good standard to hold is. How much rebuke and fire and how much grace and quietness. Blessings to you!
Another masterfully done video. I wanna be like you when I grow up.
Great video. I like your approach and your level-headed attitude when disagreeing with some of what Rhett says.
I am figuring out my own "deconstruction" journey, grew up as a Christian and attended church every week for 22 years. In the past few years have realized that I have no reason to believe that God exists or that the Bible is true, and despite wanting it all to be true, I just don't believe it. Things like I would pray every day and nothing would happen, wouldn't feel anything or experience anything from God, and from there wondering what kind of "relationship" it really was.
Like I have 2 little boys, and if I wrote a book that tells them how much I love them, but every time they tried to speak to me or see me I would never speak to them or show myself to them, that wouldn't make any sense at all. Different things like that that just started to not make sense to me led me to where I'm at today.
If anyone has advice for me or could pray for me, I welcome it.
thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. you might be interested in my video on divine hiddenness, responding to alex o'connor
Praying for you!
It breaks my heart that Rhett and Link have deconstructed their faith. I have grown up watching them and I always found them to be such a good influence and positive mark in my life and I had always believed that they were Christians. I believe they still practice many of the things that are taught in Christianity. They love everyone regardless of their background or race or gender. They are just genuinely wholesome people and I don’t think they would be who they are if they weren’t raised the way they were. I’m very thankful they have been exposed to the gospel and I pray they will one day come to reignite their faith. They have already made such a huge impact on this world but they would be an amazing tool in spreading the gospel. I wish Rhett and Link the best in all they do. I am truly thankful for them and the impact they’ve had on me.
Appreciated you playing clips of the original so things weren't taken out of context. I think Rhett is more trying to say that no one can see the elephant. He's pretty sure there is one, but he has no proof so he won't try to convince anyone else. But since many people claim to see different things when interacting with the elephant, how can we know which of them is right? He's saying we're ALL blind and trying to figure out what's there, so it doesn't seem to make sense to make any specific claims about the thing we can't see the whole picture of.
Hey Gavin! Question: You mention early in the video about how some weaknesses in Evangelical culture can lend themselves to deconstruction at times. Do you have a particular video that goes through some of these weaknesses? As a Pastor in College Ministry I feel like that video would be of great help to me! Love your channel man!
thanks a lot! I will consider doing a video on this sometime!
I appreciate your attitude 💪
nice video! good watch
Professor Ortlund, you are perhaps the kindest, most understanding person I’ve ever seen on social media or anywhere for that matter. I know you don’t want any attacking comments to be written about Mr McLaughlin. If what I say is seen as an attack or disrespectful, especially to you, then please do take it down. I am concerned and do not want to go against your wishes and offend you. The thing that bothers me about Mr McLaughlin’s deconstruction is not that he left the Christian faith, it’s that he did it very publicly. He could have said something such as “I have been at odds with some of the beliefs of Christianity (or even American Evangelical Christianity) and I have decided that I am taking my beliefs private from now on. I don’t criticize anyone who remains in any form of Christianity. You should not be influenced by me and anything I say or do.” I could respect and even admire an approach like that, but that’s not at all what happened. His criticisms have been specific, targeted attacks on Christianity and by not so subtle implication, on believers. When you hold up a book by someone who is not a Christian, someone who has a totally different worldview and who uses metaphors to criticize those who hold a Christian worldview, that’s an attack on them. It’s a pretty brutish attack as well, considering they were his customers on social media. The other rather naive statement which you mentioned was his taking for granted the fruits of the Holy Spirit of Galatians 5. This is not uncommon in western cultures to believe that these spiritual and moral values are obvious to everyone everywhere. I know that you know they are not. I call this spending the residual spiritual and moral capital of Christianity. As the faith fades out of predominance, these values will not be obvious. They do not come naturally to human beings.
Why shouldn't he have done it publicly? The moment he announced he had left the faith was being attacked, criticized, and his faith dismissed as a sham by Christians left, right, and center. He was a public figure, sure, so it comes with the territory, but they saw value in talking about it, not only for themselves, but for others going through the same thing.
Honestly, if you really think Rhett and Link's deconstruction was a "brutish attack" then I think you have lost all perspective. They have as much right to discuss their experiences and beliefs as Gavin does on this channel and you do in the comments. Telling them to keep quiet when they don't owe Christians anything, is ridiculous. If Christianity can't survive the mild criticisms of Rhett and Link, then it's not worth saving.
@@EnglishMike
Although they have a right to share their beliefs, I agree, the negative affect is having some of the most influential people in the world speak about issues they know little about. Dr. Ortlund has studied Christianity at an academic level, and Rhett and Link have a comparatively shallow understanding as people who just started to study Christianity critically. The unfortunate thing is millions more people will be influenced and believe what Rhett and Link say merely due to their popularity.
I think there is a danger in broadcasting to millions of impressionable people an opinion that you have little background in. I’ve seen wise Christians refrain from speaking on topics they haven’t studied, even if they have a “right” to speak their minds.
@@EnglishMike You're absolutely right. No one should ever have invested any of their emotional life in a couple of clown princes. Ultimately, everyone is responsible for their own feelings. Rhett's and Link's inconsideration and callousness in this regard is to be expected from people who have the obvious depth and integrity of a bathroom paper rinse cup in an ocean. Now, I think I'm probably crossing the line and Professor Ortlund may object. That's his prerogative. He seems to think that attacks on people who lead others astray are not warranted, but Jesus Himself might disagree with that. He was harsh and vicious in his attacks on those people. He labeled and called them names; everything from "blind guides" to "a brood of vipers". Maybe the duo never read that in Matthew 23? Perhaps they should have, so that they would know how Christ sees those in positions of influence over others who disregard the effect of their misdirection. That gets to the real nub of the issue. They and everyone who does this publicly, including the gang of worship musicians in recent years, needs to understand that they are not walking away from and discrediting some nebulous ideology known as the Christian worldview. They are discrediting and attacking the person and work of Jesus Christ. We need to be unambiguous about what is going on when people publicly deconstruct or fall away from a prior publicly professed faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Let's be clear about that. That's what they have done. That's what they need to accept responsibility for doing. They dishonor the name of Christ to an audience comprised of a sizable percentage of people to whom they appealed on the basis of their expressed faith in Him.
I agree with all your points. If someone in my environment says he is without a house then I often push back in the very same way you do.
The house is bigger than people realize at first! True indeed
As a Catholic, I support this video. :-). Seriously, this is good , firm, charitable engagement.
As a Catholic observer, I think Protestantism and especially Evangelicalism needs to co-opt “deconstruction” for “reconstruction”. If your enduring moto is semper reformandi-always reforming-you shouldn’t be afraid of questioning what you understand about the faith and coming to somewhat different conclusions afterwards. The truth is, pretty much everyone will go through a kind of conversion-like experience at least once in their life, where they will leave behind a seemingly more corrupt faith for a seemingly more pure faith (though others will disagree about the corruption and purity!). Instead of telling people not to do this, Protestants need to show people how to do this practically-inevitable process well and encourage them to do it better. This will show people that the end result of deconstruction is not the destruction of faith altogether, but rather the reconstruction of their previous faith into something hopefully much better.
Thank you Gavin 🤝
There is a difference between people being engrossed in their particular cultural or religious truth claims, and those who stand outside them making far less truth claims and merely questioning the former.
Fine tuning argument. Given infinite time and iterations, if something is possible it will become actual. Every time conscious life arises in the universe, that creature will feel that the odds were astronomically impossible that they exist; they are correct. It doesn’t imply or prove the existence of a divine intelligence/mind.
@@godsfool5284I don’t like the fine tuning argument for Christians. But when you say “given infinite time” that is a major assumption. One problem with Christians tho is they base so much on one human race, one planet, one timeline. They make god to be such a lowercase g god. And if we can ever show other intelligent lives, other universes, etc they will have to turn into eastern religious concepts
@@tookie36 I think the amount of matter and energy in the universe is fixed and cannot be created or destroyed, it simply moves into different forms. If this is the case, then it is eternal and has no true beginning or end.
@@tookie36 I like what you say about the anthropomorphic or human centric gods needing to broaden to accommodate other universes/intelligent species etc.
@@godsfool5284 possibly. But you still have to smuggle in brute facts of time and energy. Who created that? How? Why? Etc doesn’t really get us out of this god business
Beautiful video
DUDE. Watching videos at 2X speed saves so much time!
Great video. You nailed it. Once I realized that just sentiments like to "help those in need," to "live healthy," or to "love others" have their roots in Christianity, I came right back to the Cross of Christ.
You don’t need a god to be good. R&L exemplify that as they are less religious yet still keep up with the same level of fundraising and activism that they did before (if not moreso now)
Also Job was a non Jew… didn’t know of Christ. And his love kept him faithful to god. As it does for many inside and outside of Christianity
I grew up in an evangelical church, and now I am fully ensconced in my Anglican (ACNA) church. I wish I would’ve found this tradition and this expression of the Christian faith 30 years ago. I’m grateful for my evangelical background, but I feel more “enchanted“ by not having to have an answer for everything, but leaving some things to mystery, and the bigness of God and his purposes in my life, in the Church, and in this world. Thanks be to God!
Same experience exactly! For logistical reasons, I can't check out the ACNA or any of the other Anglican options.
@@johnnygnash2253
Not sure what you mean…
@@Apriluser
Oh, hey, I think we've discussed this before. What I mean is that, less charitably, I wish I'd never been exposed to my former evangelical faith tradition at all. I became a member of the Anglican Communion (ECUSA), but can't check out ACNA or GAFCON simply because I can't drive myself to one of their churches.
Would you consider checking out a Catholic Church? I would argue your tradition is built upon a greater foundation in Catholic traditions.
@@johnnygnash2253
So sorry. Hopefully you can find a solid church close to you. My husband is our priest so I have a great advantage being married to him. 😊. Prayers for you. Maybe a Lutheran (LCMS) parish.
man I would pay to see you sit down and have a dialogue with Rhett
Gavin, have you ever done a video, or published in writing, your journey with doubt that led ultimately to confidence, peace and joy? I’ve heard you reference it several times but a detailed account (if it’s not too personal) would be of great interest and assistance to many I think.
thanks! I share it a bit in my video on deconstruction on youtube.
@@TruthUnites I’ll look it up, thanks!
Hi Dr. Ortlund.
I've grown to like your channel. I'm currently in a Mark 9:24 situation of "I believe, help my unbelief". I believe in the truths of regeneration and sanctification since I've experienced them in my life, but there are certain parts of the Bible I'm struggling to come to grips with, particularly reconciling Romans 9:22 with 2 Peter 3:9.
My question is, if God has already prepared vessels of wrath for destruction, how is it that He doesn't wish that any should perish?
Kindly help me understand.
Many thanks Sir,
Nick.
Nick, may the Lord bless you and direct you brother. I have a video on Calvinism, I hope it could be of use to you!
@@TruthUnites Thank you Sir 🙏. I'll be sure to check it out.
Calvinism/reformed theology are lies from the pit of hell. Reject these BS tulip petals , read MMLJ and Acts, get to know Jesus The Messiah more and root yourself in Him.
@@truthseeker5698 Not a great way to criticize a theology. Especially if you actually want people to take you seriously.
@@cambridgehathaway3367 Maybe so. The comment provides a solid prescriptive plan of action with a warning label .
The thing is, with Rhett in the 12 minute mark is that I understand that to him he's not "building a house" he's more like figuring out the house and planning it before he starts building it, but the problem with that is, while he's doing that he's telling others in his opinions and the thing about seeking truth, is that it is objective, so when you make claims about seeking truth you're inherently making it so that objectively things are like this and aren't like that. The thing I find amusing is that the things he says, are addressed in the bible "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known." John in the first chapter agrees with Rhett in saying no one can know God, and John then therefore says Jesus, who is God, has made the unknown God known, similarly
in Acts 17: So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.
when you know the historical context Paul was speaking to people of philosophy, stoic and hedonistic philosophers, and if he wants to say "well I don't want to take the bible at face value" I agree with that, I went through a de conversion journey myself and one of things that led me back to Christianity is the reliability of the Bible, on top of philosophy and questioning about the reality of existence itself.
Thank you for the work you do for the kingdom, Gavin! Your videos have been a constant inspiration for me for holy living since I have discovered them.
I have gained a greater assurance of salvation through theological depth, so the purpose of your channel is being met. God bless you!
wonderful to hear that, thanks for saying so!
Great work, I hope Rhett sees this!
Very helpful, thank you; I appreciate your gentleness and assuming the best of people who doubt. That is really a brilliant image of the compassion of Christ Himself, which is sincerely lacking in the world today. Also, I think I should just note - for everyone's safety - that looking at the sun through a telescope is a very bad idea (that fact, however, has no effect on the meaning of this analogy). Thank you, Pastor Ortlund; God bless you and I pray God's best for Rhett.
As someone who deconstructed their faith and is no longer a Christian, I really appreciate your demeanor. I firmly believe that if I had been exposed to some of the views of Christianity that I have since I left the faith, there's a decent chance I would currently still be a Christian. This video is something that makes me think that.
Nice job, in a divisive world we need to try and connect more
It makes me sad that people are saying cruel things to Rhett for leaving. What better way to make him confident in his choice.
Great video. Thanks for making it.
It also prevents Christians from understanding the real reasons why an increasing number of young people are rejecting Christianity these days. Blaming insincere motives, or the culture isn't going to stop it, and nor is doubling down on the failed tactics of the past and neither will circling the wagons. If you can't correctly diagnose the problem, you're never going to start developing a solution.
I think the deconstruction movement seems to have a lot of backing by the social justice movement. It plays on the idea of niceness being the paramount virtue, not love/kindness. To treat one as your kin means that you have to tell them things that you don’t want to in order for them to better themselves. It’s difficult. I struggle with this, I often times don’t want to confront people for fear of being “not nice.” But at the end of the day, when I examine myself (not saying this for everyone else), it ultimately is selfishness that holds me back. And I think that plays a role. A lot of people don’t want to call out homosexual relationships or people living together before they’re married or even outright heresy because they don’t want to seem like they’re mean or a bad guy. And you shouldn’t want to seem that way, that’s not wrong. It’s wrong if you let that overshadow your duty to call people to repentance and to tell them the truth.
As usual, wonderful job Gavin! One slight tweak: several times you mentioned the fruits (plural) of the Spirit. As you well know, the Greek for fruit in Gal. 5:22,23 is singular. Karpos not karpoi. The fruit of the Spirit are in a cluster rather than separate entities.
I would love to see you engage with Brandon of MindShift. Specifically: ""You Just Sound Hurt!" | When Christians Respond".
Would love to see you, Pageau, and Vanderklay discuss deconstruction. A lot of the time Catholicism or Orthodoxy are presented as the only solutions to deconstruction.
👆not sure about Pageau but PVK would be a good interlocutor on this and for it to be an approachable discussion for normies to listen in to
Pageau is probably the most overrated guy on YT
@@BeefyPreacher I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Pageau was there to help herd the massive wave of people that were interacting with Jordan Peterson's ideas into Christianity. Much of what Peterson talks about, concerning Christianity, comes from his conversations with Pageau. Whether you agree with what he says or not, his influence has helped hundreds of thousands of people get their butts into pews on Sunday morning.
Your grandfather did a great mini-series from his radio program on this subject. A look at Romans 12:1-2 gives a little different approach talking about the “spirit of the age” and seeking the God with all your mind. John Fischer has a few articles worthy of note also as I recall if people are interested. Since we are all under an umbrella of grace, we need to meet people “where they are” and be consistent in loving them (Ephesians 4:15). Soli Deo Gloria!
I think part of the reason that many people try to deconstruct faith is because they don't actually believe the true Jesus. They have their own version that have never really studied out, and as a result, their faith isn't based on anything.
I think what Rhett is unknowingly battling is the Pride of Life that I too struggle with constantly. It helps to be humbled by the realization that none of our deep thoughts, or "un-thoughts" about God are new. In that regard, we are only coming up with new phrases in generational context to reject the eternal truth of Christ and our need for Him.
We all do. We are hopeless sinners in need of grace. Rhett and Link are thinking very common things. Hopefully, the Holy Spirit will guide them home one day.
To your last point of not feeling fair, it brought to mind what Pope Benedict XVI said, "we're living in a dictatorship of relativism." These people assume that they can have their cake, eat it and not face push back.
I agree. You can’t say that these rules apply to me but somehow you’re above them and they don’t apply to you. That’s just deception.
I thank God for you and your work to advance His Kingdom! My telescope was skewed for quite some time, and then Jesus put it in focus ✝ Your videos and strong faith played a part in that Gavin Orlund. Thank you. God bless you!