There and Back Again: My Traditionalist Journey
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Dear viewers,
I wrote my story out and recorded myself reading it so it would be in better order than if I merely spoke off the cuff about my experience. Sorry if it sounds a little stiff as a consequence! ;)
I didn't know if sharing this would be helpful for people wanting to know where I'm coming from. Perhaps you are struggling with similar experiences yourself, and trying reconcile and discern everything.
It's an on-going process for sure!!
If you have questions or would like to share your story with me, I'd love to hear from you: lauravandervos@outlook.com
May God richly bless you and give you peace!
If you have enjoyed or benefitted from the content on my channel, please consider lending your support to help me continue this work!
May God reward you!
ko-fi.com/laur...
/ lauravandervos
Good job. I can relate. I go to a tlm in my Parish and a NO masses as well. I just prefer the tlm. But if i cant go to a tlm, I have no issues with a NO mass. It’s really the music.. man, NO music is really bad. I try to go to a no-singing NO mass if at all possible.
I relate to almost everything you have said, thank you so much for sharing your testimony, this is really helpful to me.
I'm so glad it's helpful, Katie! Would love to hear your story sometime, too! God bless you!
Thank you for sharing. It's good to hear two sides of things. I'm glad that finding tradition didn't bring you into some schismatic group. I know and have met Sedes, SSPXers, independent priests, and a SSPX-MC priest and have never thought any of their arguments convincing. My first comment is this: I started in the Novus Ordo and got involved with the charismatic movement and found it very disturbing, though I did find good, genuine Catholics involved in it. I'm not judging the people but the method. It especially bothered me because I came from a background of the occult and saw some strange things that seemed...spooky. I especially felt this way after I had an experience in "falling in the spirit". It was very disturbing and caused me a lot of emotional distress. I went to one charismatic meeting and the priest said that if you don't obtain the gift of tongues (in the sense some charismatics understand it) the other gifts of the Holy Spirit aren't activated. He said baptism by the Holy Ghost was like a second baptism and you need the gift of tongues to progress on to acquire the other gifts of the Holy Spirit, and later when he laid his hands on me he commanded me to speak in tongues, and I didn't. I'll be honest, it was quite jarring hearing people speak in tongues, without an interpreter, too, start loudly speaking in tongues in a nave of a Catholic Church. I went on a Cursillo, as well, and noticed similar things. I think, again, there are great, solid, orthodox people in the charismatic movement but I think it's fair to say the charismatic movement has issues just as the Trad movement does, as well. I'll agree with Fr. Ripperger that charismatics make the best traditional Catholics (I know this qualifier is lacking in substance but I'm going to use it just for identification) because they know and care about what the gospel says.
Hi Jacob! Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I'm sorry you had spooky experiences in the charismatic movement. I didn't get into all angles in my testimony, but I do know and have heard of times when things went awry in those groups and had to be shut down, at least temporarily. Most often, however, they seemed to bear good fruit and to be obedient to their bishop, so I hated to see them all chalked up to being quacks that are trying to deceive people or get them involved with evil spirits, but I'm sure there are some who abuse the opportunity. Yikes. Any group of people can go overboard, even if they start out with a great idea and good intentions. I think mostly that is what happens in Traditionalism. If we're looking for the good in everything we'll find a lot more than in being suspicious of everything, and I've experienced many times the protection of God from harmful influences when I just operated with an attitude of good-will and tried my best to be discerning. It's amazing how many things we ARE spared from, isn't it?! :D
@@mrshappycatholic Yeah, that's why I wanted to compliment the solid Catholics in the charismatic movement because I've met them. I have nothing against charismatics individually, just being in the movement I've seen some really disturbing trends.
Being in Traditionalist circles I've seen lots of theological error, too. No matter what Traditionalist group I've ran into they basically all use Lefebvre's arguments, either knowingly or unknowingly, to support their claims. Lots of cliquishness, a lack of charity etc. are par for the course. I find it all terrible, especially since for me the Latin Mass has been so beneficial to me spiritually and I really would be crushed if we lost it. Thankfully, Our Bishop celebrates the 1962, loves the Latin Mass, and wants it to continue in our diocese and we have solid priests celebrating it.
I recently had a traumatic experience when I stumbled into a "Mercy Night" when I went for Adoration at my regular catholic parish (I left the "latin mass" parish almost a year ago). It almost made me want to go back to the "latin mass" parish because such a thing would never happen there. In my change to "novis ordo" I read up on all the Vatican II council documents, books by Ratzinger and de Lubac etc. and in embracing the whole magisterium (not just up to 1962) it gave me such peace. Peace to know there is a trustworthy source in the magisterium and the ark of the Catholic church that is a safe place to head to heaven in. Long story short I recently tried to fulfill my hour of Adoration which I'd signed up (we have 24 hour perpetual adoration) for but walked into a charismatic event. I though I'd just go sit quietly but a woman harangued me into going up to be prayed over by one of the teams up in the front. I felt like I was at an altar call in a high pressure protestant Pentecostal church. The ladies laid hands on me and started praying loudly in tongues and then announcing that Jesus was personally appearing to them and telling them things about me. One said He wants you to start praying in the morning. Yet, I never start my day without praying at my home altar for almost an hour every morning first thing. It felt like some other Jesus was telling these ladies lies about me. It turned me inside out to not be able to trust God hears my prayers if he's telling these ladies I'm not praying. My background is that I came back to the Catholic church after 40 years because as a teenager I was pestered into abandoning the catholic church by people just like this where the elders prayed over me and told me to marry someone I didn't want to but hey, if they said it, then it was God's will and I had to do it. The group was a spin off of the Assemblies of God. The trajectory they set me on took me 40 years to return to the Catholic faith. This charismatic experience at my Catholic church the other night of lay women speaking in tongues and saying things like, "I command you!!!" and "Renounce fear!!" and pronouncing things as though they were speaking directly from God, freaked me out and it has taken awhile to feel safe again going into that church. it just did not feel very Catholic and the next day I was an emotional wreck. It was actually my brother who has gone over to the Orthodox that talked me "in from the ledge" so to speak. He said there is no such role in Catholicism of prophetess and that I didn't have to obey these lay women. I've gotten permission from a catechist at our parish that if I go to Adoration and it turns out they are doing one of these events, I'm okay to just go on home.
Oh my goodness, Katherine! I'm so sorry to hear about your experience! That was so inappropriate for those women to pressure you and to boss you spiritually! I believe the charismatic movement can be beneficial to people, but your experience is one example of how it can go wrong. :( I wonder if you could share your experience with your priest and let him know the kinds of things that are going on during those meetings? I doubt he would be in favor of that. If that seems too intimidating to you (to bring it up to your priest) I don't mean to pressure you at all. Thank you for sticking with the Church, full of imperfect people as it is!! It is such a temptation to run to externals that give us a certain security. I'll pray for you!!
Thank you for sharing this. As you began to question so many things in the Novus Ordo, I too fell into that as well. I would find myself leaving Mass more irritated than when I started. I began to focus too on how bad the music was, the fact that so many lay people were dressed with no regard, that perhaps the priest said something incorrectly during the Eucharist prayers that would then make me question whether we were even truly consuming Christ in the Eucharist at a Novus Ordo Mass. At one point I would only have items blessed using the old Latin forms because I believed after hearing from traditionalists that the newer blessings were weak or not fully backed by the Holy Spirit. But then I got tired of it all. I finally thought, "I just want to go to Mass and receive Jesus in the Eucharist." I also noted that the idea of only attending a Latin Mass because those were the people who were "really into their faith" and I couldn't waste my time being around anything less, made me realize my snobbery which I soon realized was nothing of what Christ would ask of us. It is unfortunate that there are those in social media leading so many astray. I would assume that their intentions are to bring people closer to God through the Latin Mass...but the fact is they are teaching heresy that goes against Holy Mother Church. Enough. It is time to call this out, not so much to attack these personalities, but more so to save the many who are falling into the trap of "tradition alone" which actually can bring more sin than Grace. God Bless
Well put, Christopher, and thank you for sharing your experience! I know that not everyone falls into the same exact traps as we did, but there's definitely a pattern of what goes on when you dip into Traditionalism or its circles. Not something I recommend to anyone, that's for sure.
I loved this story and your wedding pictures and dress were beautiful. 😊
Thanks, Halley! ;)
I listened to your entire testimony. I think you make plenty of good points. My main takeaway from your testimony is not that there is something problematic about the SSPX per se...Rather, your recurring grievance is that those who rightly guard and cherish Tradition sometimes do not do so with the proper balance of charity and patience and kindness and peace.
Point well taken...But all this does not mean that the "Trads" are wrong in their position on the Novus Ordo, in their assessment of the crisis, or in their unflinching devotion to Holy Mother Church (and, especially, Her oft-neglected Sacred Tradition). Rather, your testimony is a lesson that some TLM-goers have much spiritual work to do, and further to walk along the path of spiritual maturation toward Virtue and perfection in Christ. That is, SSPX/TLM-goers are not on the wrong path, but rather we are yet novices on that path toward sainthood (and thus, we sometimes or even oftentimes stumble along that arduous path).
Let's see: sectarian, cultic and/or scrupulous and/or pharisaic environments are not privative of Catholic traditionalism and don't define it in any way. I come from a Latin American country with a tiny traditional catholic scene and the situations you described are common in neo-conservative movements such as the Neocatecumenal Way and especially! in Charismatic or Charismatoid groups! Moreover, it was in the tiny traditionalist scene in my country where I found the most free, rational, delicate and conscience-obeying priests and catholics. Many of them know what is to be ostracized, persecuted or maligned by semi-totalitarian control structures, very rigid and vertical but happily aligned with Vatican 2, Novus Ordo and the current Popes. I have the impression that you are triying to assume that some traits of the sad cultic consecuences of the crisis of the Church, present in many many ecclesial realities of different kinds, are "traditudes" or in some sense essential to traditionalism. That's far from the truth and is very close to detraction. I hope you can experience, for example, the traditionalist scene in Paris, in the SSPX's Saint Nicholas de Chardonnet for example. There you can find a very open minded, intellectual and sincere traditional catholic community. I think that many vices (antiintellectualism, gregarism, "benedictoptionism", etc) that are born of societies with not a solid tradition of Christendom (of catholic social order) tend to be hypercorrect in certain accidental things, thus paving the way for cult-like attitudes.
Great story! You were blessed to have parents that instructed you well in the faith and were examples of how to live it!
I had my own experience with radical traditionalism. I became involved with the SSPX-MC (resistance) shortly after my conversion, and the amount of anxiety and hatred drove me out of the Church all together. I've since came back to the faith after a number of years wondering away. I still go to a diocesan Latin mass parish, but I go to the OF quite often as well.
Thank you for bringing peoples' stories (including your own) with radical to light! traditionalist
Thanks for sharing your story, Tyler! I'm sorry you've had such a rough time, but you keep trying and aren't giving up! Impressive and edifying. Thank you. :)
Thank you! I've come to realize the poison of the trad movement. I'm grateful for your channel and witness 🙏 I'm grateful for the Lord's Humility and obedience to Holy Mother Church
Thank you for sharing your odyssey ! Is that Father John Brown (RIP) &t=8m2s ? I thought he did Divine Will teachings in Texas, I did not realize he was affiliated with the Traditionalist movement.
Oh, thanks for pointing that out! I didn't even realize I had a picture of Fr. Brown in the video, haha, but I'm not referring to him in my story but rather an FSSP priest that I met through a family friend and who directed me for several years. I DID know Fr. John Brown, though, and loved him dearly!! He lived as a hermit at the Sycamore Tree Retreat Center in the Swan Valley of Montana (pictures in the video are from there - it has been a great spiritual home for me) for a few years and we received some very balancing and wonderful instruction from him which helped to steer us away from getting very radical with our Traditionalism. God bless Fr. Brown - I love him!
I admire your positive energy and enthusiasm. It is only too bad that much of your well-written piece with lots to tell, is lost in the speed reading. I wish there were adequate pauses in & after sentences, to absorb and reflect for a second or two. I imagine you are a super busy mom in a rush, so I cannot fault your generous efforts to share stories. I enjoy listening to accounts of faith experiences, that different people have to offer, but keep feeling stressed in trying to follow the quick pace here. (Then again, perhaps it is just me that struggles to keep up, so in that case, you need not bother changing anything I suppose.) I did try
to listen at lower speed setting, but it only does your voice yet another injustice, in that you sound altered. :(
Oh, Valerie, I'm so sorry! I thought I was reading slower that time!! I will try to slow down more in the future. I guess I'm afraid people will get bored if I read too slowly. ;) Maybe I can do another version and try slowing it down when I read. Thanks for your feedback!
You are so sweet! I only felt that what you have to say, deserves to be fully grasped, and (at least for me) I ended up regretting that much just flew by me in the delivery. I do know that another person commented similarly in another of your readings, so there are two of us anyway, who think/process a little slower. But like I said, maybe it’s fine for the rest so... Anyway, thanks for your sincere thoughts and taking time for us!
You can slow her down if you thought it to fast. By hitting the little gear in the corner.😊
I've been on the peripheries of traditionalism my whole adult life, the traditions theyre dedicated to are good and holy but their ghetto status poisons them.. my observation has been that summorum pontificum seemed to be significantly improving the attitudes in the communities I personally witnessed, i saw traditionalist communities start to shed that toxic mentality a bit, traditionis custodes has seemed to break down that progress benedict had made IMHO.
born and raised in the SSPX - the most striking analogy I can come up with is the fall of Lucifer - the angel who thought himself more beautiful than God is not unlike the traditionalist movement which thinks itself more beautiful than the Church. Traditionalists believe that God has abandoned His Church - and, as I once was, are so concerned about others "leaving the faith". But I say unto you, dear Traditionalists, what "Faith" is there to leave when in fact you have no faith at all? You are so busy "converting others" that you have forgotten to convert yourselves.
It took years of being removed from it to appreciate the SSPX for the cult that it is. Quis ut Deus?
Beautifully articulated!💖
If you can't get to my comments, I understand. God bless you.
The second comment I wanted to make is I'm sorry that was your experience with that particular FSSP priest. I've met many FSSP priests and even more ICKSP priests, and I go to an IBP parish and have met two of their priests. I can say each priest is truly an individual and has his own views, but as organizations with their own rules and constitutions are %100 loyal to the Magisterium of the Church. Me and my wife were given marriage prep. by two FSSP priests and our bishop waived us from going to NFP classes, though what it is was taught to us by our Pastor. We received very good instruction on sexual matters in our marriage prep. These things can be different from priest to priest but not all FSSP, ICKSP, or IBP priest is going to think this or that way.
As for the IBP I will post this: The Holy See granted the members of the new institute use, as the institute's own rite, of the "Tridentine" form of the Roman Rite, employing the 1962 Roman Missal. For their part, each of the founding members personally undertook to respect the authentic Magisterium of the See of Rome with "complete fidelity to the infallible Magisterium of the Church."[14] The members of the institute may engage in a criticism of the Second Vatican Council that is serious and constructive and in accord with Pope Benedict XVI's address of 22 December 2005 to the Roman Curia. I post this because the Church does allow for afair criticism of those things that are not dogmatically binding in the Second Vatican Council, as long as we have fidelity to the Magisterium.
And thank you for this comment, as well! I owe a lot to Father X, but no one is perfect, and it was my own fault that I allowed him to be this unquestioned guiding light for so long. No one should have that kind of pressure put on them. Unfortunately, I know of other FSSP priests who give much wackier counsel than Father X ever gave to me. I would like to believe they are all 100% faithful to the magisterium, but some of them are flirting with schism and rebellious attitudes, especially since Traditionis Custodes was issued.
That is good to hear about IBP. If people are being careful, that's what matters. It's this reckless criticism that sows seeds of doubt and undermines the value of the Second Vatican Council and the good it did for the Church that I'm wary of. Trads either want to sweep it under the rug or tear it to pieces, in my experience, and even though no council or council document is perfect and could probably stand some measure of criticism, we really risk impoverishing outselves by shutting out things that are true and good and meant to help us be better Catholics.
I love what a recent ex-Trad apologist said on an interview within the last couple of months (I can't remember which one, maybe it will come to me!) along the lines of: If it ever seems to me that a Church document contains error or contradiction, the first thing I should question is my own judgment. It is far more likely that my interpretation or understanding of its context is incorrect, and I have to be willing to admit that, and that there are some things I will never fully understand because of my limited intellectual capacity.
As someone who used to be enthralled with Trad-dom, I know how easy it is to assume that I really understand something enough to pass judgment on it, with even just a superficial examination; and as soon as that squint of disapproval crosses my face, I have forgotten to be humble. :(
Also worthy of more frequent mention is the fact that the Holy Spirit protects the Ordinary Magisterium as well as the Extraordinary from error, to protect the deposit of faith and the faithful from being led astray. We really can trust the Church to lead us! (I love Canon George Smith's article explaining that: "Must I Believe It?" - on my youtube channel, as well.)
Thank you again for your comments, Jacob!
@@mrshappycatholic Oh yeah, certainly. There are wacky priests in every group and every diocese, either leaning in one direction or the other. Since my former parish was an FSSP parish I got to experience the personalities of a bunch of priests first hand. All of them were solid, preached virtue, rarely got into polemics, and joined the bishop at the chrism mass and had a great relationship with our bishop.
I had a discussion with my pastor (a good IBP priest) and we discussed Vatican II over cigars and a couple drinks. He told me specifically the dogmatic constitutions are not to be questioned, and that we can critique charitably the other documents of the Council. He even had an opinion that Dei Verbum was a tremendously important document that came out of the Council. He also preaches about not leaving the Catholic Church, being loyal and respectful to the bishop, and has a really solid relationship with our Ordinary.
The Holy Ghost protects the magisterium, and will continue to do so, for sure. I agree with Pope Francis that I think it will take another few decades for the Second Vatican Council to be implemented the way it should have been, in its fullness.
@@jacobsullivan9847 I know an FSSP priest who says he will never say the novus ordo mass and he gave his permission for a parishioner to attend a week long SSPX retreat.
@@mrshappycatholic I'd like to comment on this remark of yours: "As someone who used to be enthralled with Trad-dom, I know how easy it is to assume that I really understand something enough to pass judgment on it, with even just a superficial examination; and as soon as that squint of disapproval crosses my face, I have forgotten to be humble."
You don't appear to me to have much (or any?) hesitation in passing judgment on the SSPX and people associated with the SSPX, as well as other Catholics who are strongly attached to the traditional doctrines and rites of the Church from the era prior to Vatican II. Are you sure you understand these organizations and people well enough to judge them accurately? If so, where does your confidence come from? I don't think you can honestly deny that *judging* them is precisely what you are doing.
It's a fair question that you ask. I've had 15 years of experience dealing with people from the SSPX, I have friends currently involved with them, and family that grew up within the Society, friends and acquaintances from around the world who have left the Society and who help SSPX abuse victims; I've spent years researching the errors of the Society and learning about the major dysfunction and dishonesty they display on a regular basis and decided it was time I did something to help warn people about how dangerous this organization is to souls. Please be assured that I'm not judging superficially. It's possible and acceptable to judge the external forum (not the internal) and in that capacity the Society has much to answer for. "I'm not judging, just observing." as a priest I once knew said to me. I don't want people to suffer from getting entangled with them any more, and those who have been legitimately hurt by them have the right to be heard, so I am offering my channel as a platform for them and help those who need support to connect with each other and find truth and healing in the (real) Catholic Church.
I enjoyed your story. I'm not a rad trad. I've been exposed to them over the years and had some sympathy but their incredible hostility toward Pope Francis has made me look through them in more detail of late. I don't like what i see and now understand Pope Francis' restriction on TLM. I see the danger of schism they propose. I've come to call them semi-schismatic, since they have one foot out of the Church.
I am a recent convert in Germany from lutheranism (24 yo). I see a lot of good in what the SSPX does here. As a former protestant I am always critical of sect-like behaviour and disunity. This being said. It is always a question of who started and action causes reaction. In my view seeing the development of the church mainly in Germany but also internationally many points the founder of SSPX Marcel Lefebrve made have been proven right.
There is almost no more "reverent NO" mass available here. It is back to experimental and the spirit is not good. And it directly influences belief . Lex orandi lex credendi. Ratzinger saw that but still believed in a new synthesis between modern world and catholicism. In my opinion he was very optimistic there, probably too optimistic.