I feel like I've been scammed by myself. After beating the main game, and being irritated in similar and different ways to you [e.g. it makes perfect sense to me that mario's moveset doesn't fit well with the linear sections, but the joy of the movement itself meant that I never felt that way while playing the game], when I would see Luigi, I would think to myself, "I'll 100% the game before trying out Balloon World, I don't want to ruin any surprises or whatever" and after a while, I gave up on collecting the final few moons and still haven't tried Balloon World. After watching this video, I think the Mario Odyssey I was looking for was Balloon World the whole time, I just never tried it. Count me officially excited to play Odyssey again and try out what is probably going to be my favorite part of the game! Only wish I'd tried it sooner.
Yeah, I (almost) 100%ed the game for this video and it wad a grueling process. The one moon I didn't get involved collecting every purple coin in the game, which I just didn't have the patience to do. I totally get the mentality of waiting to do Balloon World too, and it sucks that that instinct is there because of how great Balloon World actually is.
I also think balloon world is better than Odyssey's base. I wonder what a game dedicated to that idea would be like. Handmade levels by Nintendo but with more Mario Maker style tools to place within them.
Exactly! I feel like there's so much potential within that concept that Balloon World just barely scratches. And I love the idea of having Mario Maker-y elements and tools: it could add a sort of spontaneity to challenges so that people can still be surprised by worlds many hours in.
Well-placed and meaningful rewards (and level design) would be a good start. Just the act of exploring for said reward in a few non-shallow exploratory locations would lay a good foundation for that goal. It'd be a much more stable set-up for Luigi's Balloon World -- more potential options and longevity.
I think people who are fans of this type of game already intrinsically play these types of games in the way you say (and I agree with) is the most fun way to play this type of game. I don’t think that something so overt as a timer is that necessary (although something like an endgame clear time or speed run mode would be good way to nudge players in the direction of playing the game that way). This is what makes me conflicted on Odyssey though (putting aside that I also prefer 3D Land/World /2D Mario approach to level design and platforming for Mario) is that even though I was able to walk the tightrope as it were and enjoy the base game in the way you described that so many people, even fans of this style couldn’t is a big problem. This is also why I would never say Odyssey is as good as 3D World (putting aside that I prefer what 3D World is doing, looking at this more intrasubjectively) because Odyssey doesn’t execute on its vision with nearly as much focus or polish as 3D World did on its.
Yeah, I think that's the main thing. Just because I wasn't able to enjoy Odyssey based on what it delivered doesn't mean other people can't; but I think it's more of a thing where a more fleshed out Balloon World concept could be something that makes the game more enjoyable for everyone! I view 3D World as a near-flawless execution of what Nintendo was trying to do, but a lot of people just didn't like what 3D World was trying to do. Meanwhile, I see people who prefer the open-exploration approach talking about things they dislike in Odyssey, and they're similar to my own issues in spite of the fact that we inherently prefer different games.
I disagree with like all of this video but not really in a “you’re wrong” way. I hate to say “thats just your opinion,” cuz it feels like a cop out, but I’m not sure what else to say really...maybe I’m just a dumb dumb but it seemed like one of your bigger issues was motivation. Why do the koopa race when the shop gives you the same reward. It’s kinda weird cuz I’ve just never had that problem. Yeah the shop gives me the same reward, but the koopa race is more fun to do yknow? That’s enough for me. Personally, the act of playing Mario odyssey is the “reward” for me I guess. I like learning how to get better at Mario’s moveset, i like staring out into the skybox of the lost kingdom and imagining what kinda stuff is in that endless forest. I like reading the pamphlets and learning the “lore,” like how ground pound blocks originate from the lost kingdom, or just the mystique of the cloud kingdom in general. I feel like a loser for talking about “lore” in Mario but I think there’s just enough of it for the world to feel like a real grounded place, which I love exploring with Mario’s super fun moveset. The simple act of being in this world, that’s enough for me. I can see how something like 3D world has “better” design but I’ve always found that game boring. I couldn’t get past the first few worlds until I convinced my friends to play with me because all the square levels and lack of personality were incredibly dull. The appeal of Mario 64 for me as a kid wasn’t its linear challenges or whatever, but it wasn’t necessarily that it was sorta nonlinear either. It was how mysterious and imaginative it was. The castle was so spooky and weird, it felt like another world where anything could happen. Odyssey, with its little bits of vague mythos, does the same thing for me as an adult. I think that combination of an intriguing world plus a super fun moveset to explore it with, is why I like 3D Mario. Honestly they could get rid of every single optional moon in odyssey and I wouldn’t care. But if they got rid of the pamphlets I’d probably find it way more boring! I just like how it engages my imagination. 3D world doesn’t engage me in that sense. It just feels like a bunch of disconnected game levels, and Mario controls very stiffly and unfun to me. But once again, “that’s just my opinion.” I totally get your perspective but I think we just enjoy video games for totally different reasons. I’m not sure why I bothered to comment all this but i hope you got something out of it! You make great videos and I’ll continue to watch them all even if I never share like any of your opinions lol.
Matt yes. God bless this video and luigi’s balloon world and this outro. Also this just reminded me I picked up Mario 3D World a while ago because of who and have yet to play it. Woo golly in for a good night
Hell yeah my guy! 3D World's a ton of fun, you're gonna have a blast. If you play with a friend make sure you jump on their head to get to the top of the flagpole for MAXIMUM POINTS. Gotta get that crown, super important stuff.
Definitely hit the nail on the head in regard to why I find 3D World more fun than Odyssey (among other reasons). Good work with the video, awesome stuff!
While I agree that Odyssey's exploration focus didn't pan out, and that the overabundance of moons devalued the platforming challenges, I can't say Luigi's Balloon World gives me the experience I'm looking for. A whole Mario game focussed on tight time limits and retrying the same path to maximize efficiency just doesn't appeal to me. It sounds a bit stressful even. That said I think Odyssey's level design didn't do it's movement mechanics justice. While it'd be a shame to lose the exploration factor I enjoy, I think I might've enjoyed a 3D World approach to the level design more. In fact, It'd probably be the perfect melding of the two games, as 3D World could benefit from Odyssey's expressive mechanics and art direction just as much as Odyssey could benefit from 3D World's tighter level design. That's just me though. Good video, you've got a good flow going.
I'd have to disagree with you on the movement. I found Odyssey's mocement mechanics to be way more cumbersome in linear segments. I think a 3D World sequel could benefit from having more powerups like the Cat Bell which add more versatility to Mario's moveset, though. I can totally get the argument that 3D World's movement could be a bit too simple for some.
@@MMLCommentaries I felt 3D World's mechanics were a bit rigid and simple yeah, though the button layout for Odyssey does make the mechanics awkward to use as well. Even giving the player full 360 degree movement might be a massive improvement for 3D World's feel personally.
While I certainly enjoyed playing odyssey, I definitely agree with your take on balloon world/linearity. One big problem that I found when playing was that the value of each moon was incredibly variant e.g. kicking a rock around and doing a really complex challenge will both grant you one moon. A possible way of solving this (if making another open-world game) may be to decrease the value of the moon even further, maybe like a 'golden star bit'. And to reward the player with a differing amount of these bits for completing certain tasks e.g. kicking the rock = 3 bits, defeating bowser = 25 bits. This could also make an open world easier as you could put more varied exploration-based challenges in without taking away from the harder ones.
My friend has two guinea pigs, so maybe the other one will want to appear in a future video? We'll see. The pet I really want to adopt is a bunny rabbit, but I have a lot of IRL stuff I need to work out before I adopt a furry friend of my own
_Fair Warning: Long comment because I explain my gripes with the game._ Interesting discussion, I agree to a lesser extent. I think the main gameplay & level designs are great but practically everything rewards you with a Power Moon. As you pointed out in the video, the abundance devalues the collectible and makes you question why even bother doing this hard challenge for a Moon when you can find a way easier one or just buy more in the Post Game. It's a problem that actually stems from the decision to get rid of Life Counter. If this was any other Mario game, so many Moons would've been 1-Up Mushrooms, but now without the need to have those there isn't a collectible to properly replace that kind of reward....except the main collectible OR creating a brand new collectible which didn't happen. And even then, there are still a lot of Moons that shouldn't exist. "I pounded 4 switches to unleash the boss for Seaside Kingdom...why did I just get 4 Moons for this simple task?" The Boss itself rewards you with 3 Moons so that's a total of SEVEN Moons for a mission that any other Mario game would've give you ONE for. Pounding those switches weren't even worth a 1-Up Mushroom much less multiple Power Moons! On a different note, remember when everyone was talking about how huge the levels were in this game leading up to its release? Most of these levels are about as big as Sunshine or even 64's levels. The ones that are really big tend to be more linear (Bowser's Kingdom) or have large areas of empty space (Sand Kingdom) which results in having a lot of Moons close to each which hurts the exploration. If the Moons were spread out more as well as less of them, or at the very least not used for simple/meaningless tasks, then the game would be a much better game. There also weren't many changes to the levels themselves like in previous games. Although a lot of people hate the "getting kicked out of the level" feature, it was utilized to have the level change a bit in SM64 and then dramatically in Sunshine. This would increase the exploration aspect because you could go back to a certain area & notice something was different. In Galaxy, the levels with heavy platforming would basically change completely for each Star so being kicked out & going back in was like going to a new level altogether. In Odyssey, the only level that saw a huge change was Sand Kingdom where the Pyramid would flip upside down & start floating. Other levels would add a shortcut & maybe another change, or not change at all. I think this might be because you don't get kicked out of the level. How can you change up a level that has a bunch of collectibles in real time without moving them around or accidentally trapping them? The answer is you don't UNLESS you add a feature to switch between a level's different states...which Odyssey doesn't. The only time you can go back to a Kingdom's original state is during the Koopa Races but then that's not for exploring, it's to reach a goal in a time limit. Meanwhile a Mission Select that kicks you out of the level allows the level to be completely changed without any side effects that real time changes would have. Since Odyssey has a crap ton of more Moons, a Mission Select would be horrible, so what should've been included was an option to switch between different states like Daytime/Nighttime versions or Seasons of the Year versions. You have 2 or more versions of the level that have their own set of Power Moons, these could be aesthetic changes or landscape changes so the level is actually multiple levels in disguise. This would increase the exploration aspect by a lot, especially if the Power Moons are in different places or even different challenges. It would also split the Power Moons between the different versions which would cut down on how many are in the same areas. Super Mario Odyssey has a fantastic base for a 3D Mario game with it's gameplay, Cappy is a fun & unique mechanic and Mario himself controls better than ever before. It falls short in how it handles its collectibles, yes plenty of people love that the game has tons of Power Moons to collect, but from design perspective it's an overabundance. There needed to be another, less meaningful collectible to be used for simpler tasks OR cut back on how often the player is rewarded. In SMO there is no difference between receiving a Power Moon for pounding a spot on the ground, finding one in a secret location or receiving one from defeating a tough enemy....except sometimes you get 3 for defeating tough enemies. It's the same collectible and you can't even use it as a form of currency, only a progression meter that ends after collecting less than half of the total number of Moons in the game. Oh, it's also the reward for Achievements, but by the time you get to that, Moons have already fulfilled their purpose other than to increase their counter.
Wow, this is quite the comment! I agree with a decent chunk of what you have to say here. Thanks for the super insightful comment. I love seeing posts and comments like this.
So, BotW solves this problem with it's collectibles being as important as they are rare: Korok seed (least important, there are 900) Spirit Orb (more important, but one alone is useless) Heart/Stamina containers (super useful and important) Divine Beasts powers (super meaningful and useful, there are only 4 in the whole game) And there are the extras (rupees, armor, equipment and photographs) Mario could make use of this by having this: Coins (they are just coins) Super Mushroom (it will cure one hit from your health bar, if it's already full you just get coins and time-limited speed boost) Purple coins (function like they already do, but they could be more useful and more well hidden) LORE (some areas that you find will have something about the past of the place you're in, you take this thing to the historian of the kingdom and he will add what he found out on your panphlet) Crowned heart (works like it already does, but now they are actually hidde and give you 3 purple coins if you are with full health) Power moons (reward for completing the harder challenges in the game) Triple Moon (reward for the hardest challenges in the game)
There might actually be a way to see what a fully fleshed out Balloon World like game could be like. you know Kaze Emanuar? He’s that famous Mario 64 rom hacker who’s made tons of fantastic additional content for Mario 64 fans. And one of his romhacks turned Mario 64 into an online multiplayer game. If he could bring Mario 64 online, he could probably recreate Balloon World and then some. He takes commissions too. so if you have the cash, we could see what a fleshed out Balloon World could look like long before Nintendo would take a crack at it.
God, i am so glad I went to Shrekfest, this and the Thomas video are great and I am so glad that I found a cool ass content creator! Excited to see more, and I got notifs on!!!
Though I get the angle you're going for, I think you've failed to understand the appeal behind exploration-focused 3D platformers. In most 2D platformers (and indeed, 3D World and arguably Galaxy 2), the purpose of level design is to create a focused, tense challenge that slowly escalates in difficulty to test the player's technical ability and mechanical awareness. The joy of these games comes from overcoming progressively more difficult challenges and feeling as though you have mastery over the game mechanics. It's a very "I'm good at playing video games, see?" sort of feeling, similar to the appeal of taking on something like Dark Souls or Meat Boy. The exploration focus of most (not all, see Sonic or Crash games) 3D platformers, by contrast, is in immersion of its environment and using the mechanics of your moveset to unearth pathways to intuit your way to a location. While 2D platformers often demand you engage with level design in a very designer-intended way, 3D platformers offer the suggestion of progression, but ultimately leave the player to find the way to the goal (or any number of goals, not merely one specific one) in the manner of their choosing. It asks the player to become intimate with its level design as though you were finding your way around a childhood park or mall, rather than a freeway. By placing constraints on the player in a CONSISTENT manner of play, you are asking them to approach 3D level design from 2D platformer sensibilities, which is entirely counter to the appeal of immersing yourself in a 3D space. The reason why something like Balloon World or the Koopa Races are limited to a side mode is because they rely on the player already being familiar with the level design from already having explored it by completing more casual, player-paced objectives first. These sorts of challenges are a fun pace-breaker to test exactly how familiar you are with the level design, but you can only demand that of the player so many times before it becomes incredibly exhausting. For reference, this is coming from someone who liked but didn't love Odyssey. My favorite Mario games are 64 and Sunshine by a wide margin (SMB3 probably coming in third), and the reason why I feel Odyssey doesn't stack up to them is for three primary reasons. Firstly, generally less focused mission structures (which would mix up level design in subtle ways to combine intimacy with freshness, asking you to approach old problems with new solutions). Secondly, a less cohesive sense of connectivity, which while not directly contributing to gameplay, made the environments feel more compartmentalized and like "video game levels," as opposed to being part of a greater interconnected world. And thirdly, a generally tighter moveset that doesn't allow for the same degree of player expression as seen in 64 and Sunshine (I primarily blame this on the way Odyssey handled diving; in prior games, it was momentum based, based off the speed you entered the dive in, then progressively gaining speed. In Odyssey, it's always a fixed speed, which makes stuff like the Cappy bouncing more consistent, but less interesting.) I definitely agree with your point of Moons feeling less valuable due to their abundance, and I think that's an aspect on Nintendo's philosophy where "missions should be inherently fulfilling because they're fun to do, not for their reward" kind of falls apart a little. The reward for a given task in a game should be equivalent to the amount of effort required to complete that task. This is where stuff like Banjo's Jinjos or Spyro's dragon eggs would've been an appropriate system, but alas, this is what we ended up with. I just suppose it's funny how we both desire for Odyssey to be a jumping off point for a more mechanically interesting game, but the experience we desire are kind of at odds with each other. Here's hoping that no matter whose side wins out, we get a better game for it (though let's be honest, the most realistic scenario is that we're both left disappointed.)
Get ready for the hate comments!! Nah, JK. But anyways, great video!! At first, I thought it was just gonna be you being all like "Scap the open world formula, it'll never work". But then when I actually heard your thoughts on this whole "problem" and how to solve it, I was quite surprised! And I have to agree with it was well. I definitely do feel like Loogy's...... balloon.... game.... whatever you call it, definitely was what Oddyssey should've been. A series of missions and collectables that encourage the player to explore and do certain tricks that they've would've never thought of before. And I definitely do think that'd be a great solution. Other than just sprinkling collectables everywhere for no reason at all. Kinda surprised you didn't touch upon the whole capturing gimmick though. Despite this being a more personal thing, I feel like the while capturing gimmick was highly unutilized. And whenever it was used, it was either used in very basic situations or used in linear platforming rooms that went comepletely against the whole "open world" formula. Especially knowing that another game that had a similar gimmick, *Space Station Sillicon Valley,* used this gimmick MUCH more creatively. Seeing as how in that game enemies actually do react to each other, whether you're controlling them or not. Leading to MANY possibilities on how you wanna tackle the enemies. *(Highly suggest you watch Nitro Rad's video if you want more info on it)* And it only makes me wish that Odyssey had something like this. But it's just a personal thing though, nothing much more than that. Anyways, great video!! And a little sad that no one watches your content. But, whatever.
I think the main reason I didn't touch on the captures is because I don't really have much to say about them. The real challenge with making a game about capturing other creatures is the same challenge you have with making a water level: you have to build a whole new control system for each individual capture. And ultimately, I didn't find most of the captures to be particularly satisfying, but I also understand that that's just me. I don't think Mario Odyssey needed the capture gimmick to succeed at what it was trying to do. I just want Nintendo to make a good open-world platforming game for the people that really want it.
@@MMLCommentaries About Joseph Anderson and Lambhoot's videos on this game... Just gonna be blatant here... I kinda don't like there videos. Joseph Anderson's especially. As I feel like his points were very half baked and almost like he just kinda rushed it all. Thought Lambhoot's is DEFINITELY better than Anderson's, i still cant shake off the feeling that he was just trying to force down his opinions down our throats. As his tone in voice and poorly placements of words kinda gave off this forceful mood. Especially near the end, where he claims "Mario should only be linear". The same problem I had with Anderson's video. And admittedly this is the reason why Iike this video more than the other 2 videos I mentioned. This video just feels more open minded and the ideas and topics feel more clear. And the solution you give to fix Odyssey's formula is DEFINITELY better than Lambhoot's option. Overall, this video is just WAY more better than Anderson or Lambhoot's video.
In continuing with my hot take trend I actually didn't like Bowser's Fury as much as other people! I'm sorta done with making videos on Mario games for now, would rather work on other projects but I may revisit down the line.
well, I disagree with most of your points, it is a good video. The point I really don't understand the "you can just buy a moon". Buying a moon increases your moon count, but, aside from the first purchase in every kingdom, it doesn't fill up the objective list. You still need to get every moon to 100% the game, so why wouldn't players do that.
I think it depends on what people's goals are when playing the game. If you want to unlock the last level then you only need 500 moons. If you're at 499 and have thr appropriate amount of coins, I'd imagine most players would just buy that last moon, even if it means missing out on content they might potentially enjoy more.
Is weird that not all moons are of equal value to obtain, but are of equal value to move to the next world and beat the game. Is this a sort of difficulty slider?
Well, okay. Admittingly it was a lotttt better than Joseph Anderson's video on Mario Odyssey. However, here's where I disagree: -While I get why you would want Mario Odyssey to be more challenging, I never really thought it needed to be challenging. To me, the game wasn't really going for that. And it's pretty evident in the moon collectable system. -I also disagree with taking out exploration in 3D Mario games. To me, I find an inherent satisfaction to get better at your moveset and using it to explore the worlds in Odyssey. -I never thought buying moons took away from doing the other objectives tbh. I see it as a choose your own experience with Mario Odyssey. And I think most people still want to do the Koopa Races for example regardless of Moon collection because it's fun. -And in general, I just don't buy that the challenge rooms were a worser implementation of the 3D World linear challenges. I saw them more as a harken back to what Sunshine would do. And I thought those were pretty fun. Regardless, while I strongly disagree with your take on Mario Odyssey, I at least think it's better than Joseph Anderson's video. I was not a big fan of how Joseph structured his video tbh. (On a side note: I saw his video. Didn't like it at all.)
Mario Odyssey's moon collectable system doesn't incentivize challenge, but results in an intentionally addictive system I would argue is to its detriment. More on that in my Odyssey Episode 0 vid. Mario's moveset offers some good movement options, but the overall heavily Capped momentum limits the exploration's potential. And I'm in the boat that the kingdoms are restrictive in that regard for the most part. The kingdoms seem to focus on quantity rather than quality, which is disappointing esp when the cohesive building blocks were there. Straight up buying moons devalues the entire moon reward system, no matter the potential benefit. If you are buying moons to reach a higher moon count, you'd only do it in the first place if you're trying to reach some moon milestone quicker, which is against the entire point of a collectathon, or you'd only do so if there are some moons you don't want to discover or scour for. I do not think there is any worthwhile benefit. The Sunshine rooms aren't comparable to Odyssey's, because Odyssey's challenge is low, the platforming is rare, and the rooms' implementations of Odyssey's core capture system were very poorly done. So I think it's fair to say that the challenge rooms weren't well-implemented, whether compared to 3D World or Sunshine. Yeah, Joseph Anderson's video was poorly structured with a lot of fluff.
All of your points I think mostly stem from a perspective of intrinsic motivation. A lot of people love running around the worlds of a game like Odyssey just for the sake of running around them, but I just don't feel that way personally. I think the angle I tried to take with this video was to frame my criticism around the lens of inclusion. Because the 3D Mario game I like most already exists, what needs to change for there to be a 3D Mario game that everyone else will like most? Thanks for the comment, I appreciate hearing opposing perspectives and viewpoints!
@@ozark5247 Just generally imo, poorly structured,frustrating to watch,and overall, not a video I want to watch period again. There's a lot I can say. But i'll just say this. I hate how forceful Joseph fanboys are about his video on the game.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I disagree with all but the last point you brought up. I do not think buying moons are a detriment. Nor do I think the kingdoms are restrictive. The opposite actually. I also disagree on the implementation of the challenge rooms being "poor". I think they were a nice deviation from the general exploration. Like the 2D segments.
Bowser's Fury was alright! I think it was a fun little experiment that could be a nice base to build something larger on top of. Main issue I had with that one was the controls. Can't run and move the camera at the same without holding the controller in a super weird way.
While I understand and respect your opinion, you could not be farther away from my experience with Mario games. The two things I agree on is that locking a bunch of moons behind the post-game is dumb. I really don't like that and forces the player to play the linear story as fast as they can before actually being able to actually play a free 3d roaming game. The second thing is the world map being so linear is also counter intuitive to the design. But other than that, my experience is totally different. I, for one, found 3D World to be really long, boring and just too by the number. It's like it is never ending and every level just start feeling te same. I remember almost nothing about the game, even though I played all the way true it. Also, having an easy way to buy moons isn't deteriorating to my experience, it is specifically for young and less good players who want to progress. I don't feel bad if someone else beats the game by only paying for moons. I still have that list of collectibles to get. And Lastly, I had no enjoyment with balloon world. The whole coin system is too punishing and you can get locked out of this mode for not being as good as other players. And the fact that the starting point is always the same, just makes every run feels same-y to me. To sum up, I really like odyssey, and even tho they are problems (and even some that you pointed out that I agree on), Most of what you propose to fix it is exactly what I don't want in a sequel. I don't want player interaction in my mario game. Make moons trickier to get too, less glowy things, make the missions names easier to look up live, add balloon world style missions, don't make repeat missions, make every moon available from the start, have a more dynamic hub world and make the post-game new worlds to run around in, even if they are way smaller.
I feel like I've been scammed by myself. After beating the main game, and being irritated in similar and different ways to you [e.g. it makes perfect sense to me that mario's moveset doesn't fit well with the linear sections, but the joy of the movement itself meant that I never felt that way while playing the game], when I would see Luigi, I would think to myself, "I'll 100% the game before trying out Balloon World, I don't want to ruin any surprises or whatever" and after a while, I gave up on collecting the final few moons and still haven't tried Balloon World.
After watching this video, I think the Mario Odyssey I was looking for was Balloon World the whole time, I just never tried it.
Count me officially excited to play Odyssey again and try out what is probably going to be my favorite part of the game! Only wish I'd tried it sooner.
Yeah, I (almost) 100%ed the game for this video and it wad a grueling process. The one moon I didn't get involved collecting every purple coin in the game, which I just didn't have the patience to do. I totally get the mentality of waiting to do Balloon World too, and it sucks that that instinct is there because of how great Balloon World actually is.
@@DemaGraphexTube There's an "achievement" moon from Toadette for getting every purple coin in the game.
I also think balloon world is better than Odyssey's base. I wonder what a game dedicated to that idea would be like. Handmade levels by Nintendo but with more Mario Maker style tools to place within them.
Exactly! I feel like there's so much potential within that concept that Balloon World just barely scratches. And I love the idea of having Mario Maker-y elements and tools: it could add a sort of spontaneity to challenges so that people can still be surprised by worlds many hours in.
Well-placed and meaningful rewards (and level design) would be a good start. Just the act of exploring for said reward in a few non-shallow exploratory locations would lay a good foundation for that goal. It'd be a much more stable set-up for Luigi's Balloon World -- more potential options and longevity.
I think people who are fans of this type of game already intrinsically play these types of games in the way you say (and I agree with) is the most fun way to play this type of game. I don’t think that something so overt as a timer is that necessary (although something like an endgame clear time or speed run mode would be good way to nudge players in the direction of playing the game that way). This is what makes me conflicted on Odyssey though (putting aside that I also prefer 3D Land/World /2D Mario approach to level design and platforming for Mario) is that even though I was able to walk the tightrope as it were and enjoy the base game in the way you described that so many people, even fans of this style couldn’t is a big problem. This is also why I would never say Odyssey is as good as 3D World (putting aside that I prefer what 3D World is doing, looking at this more intrasubjectively) because Odyssey doesn’t execute on its vision with nearly as much focus or polish as 3D World did on its.
Yeah, I think that's the main thing. Just because I wasn't able to enjoy Odyssey based on what it delivered doesn't mean other people can't; but I think it's more of a thing where a more fleshed out Balloon World concept could be something that makes the game more enjoyable for everyone! I view 3D World as a near-flawless execution of what Nintendo was trying to do, but a lot of people just didn't like what 3D World was trying to do. Meanwhile, I see people who prefer the open-exploration approach talking about things they dislike in Odyssey, and they're similar to my own issues in spite of the fact that we inherently prefer different games.
I disagree with like all of this video but not really in a “you’re wrong” way. I hate to say “thats just your opinion,” cuz it feels like a cop out, but I’m not sure what else to say really...maybe I’m just a dumb dumb but it seemed like one of your bigger issues was motivation. Why do the koopa race when the shop gives you the same reward. It’s kinda weird cuz I’ve just never had that problem. Yeah the shop gives me the same reward, but the koopa race is more fun to do yknow? That’s enough for me.
Personally, the act of playing Mario odyssey is the “reward” for me I guess. I like learning how to get better at Mario’s moveset, i like staring out into the skybox of the lost kingdom and imagining what kinda stuff is in that endless forest. I like reading the pamphlets and learning the “lore,” like how ground pound blocks originate from the lost kingdom, or just the mystique of the cloud kingdom in general. I feel like a loser for talking about “lore” in Mario but I think there’s just enough of it for the world to feel like a real grounded place, which I love exploring with Mario’s super fun moveset. The simple act of being in this world, that’s enough for me. I can see how something like 3D world has “better” design but I’ve always found that game boring. I couldn’t get past the first few worlds until I convinced my friends to play with me because all the square levels and lack of personality were incredibly dull.
The appeal of Mario 64 for me as a kid wasn’t its linear challenges or whatever, but it wasn’t necessarily that it was sorta nonlinear either. It was how mysterious and imaginative it was. The castle was so spooky and weird, it felt like another world where anything could happen. Odyssey, with its little bits of vague mythos, does the same thing for me as an adult. I think that combination of an intriguing world plus a super fun moveset to explore it with, is why I like 3D Mario. Honestly they could get rid of every single optional moon in odyssey and I wouldn’t care. But if they got rid of the pamphlets I’d probably find it way more boring! I just like how it engages my imagination. 3D world doesn’t engage me in that sense. It just feels like a bunch of disconnected game levels, and Mario controls very stiffly and unfun to me. But once again, “that’s just my opinion.” I totally get your perspective but I think we just enjoy video games for totally different reasons. I’m not sure why I bothered to comment all this but i hope you got something out of it! You make great videos and I’ll continue to watch them all even if I never share like any of your opinions lol.
Matt yes. God bless this video and luigi’s balloon world and this outro. Also this just reminded me I picked up Mario 3D World a while ago because of who and have yet to play it. Woo golly in for a good night
Hell yeah my guy! 3D World's a ton of fun, you're gonna have a blast. If you play with a friend make sure you jump on their head to get to the top of the flagpole for MAXIMUM POINTS. Gotta get that crown, super important stuff.
I didn't think there was a problem with Mario Odyssey, but now I see what can still be greatly improved.
Definitely hit the nail on the head in regard to why I find 3D World more fun than Odyssey (among other reasons). Good work with the video, awesome stuff!
Thanks a lot man!
While I agree that Odyssey's exploration focus didn't pan out, and that the overabundance of moons devalued the platforming challenges, I can't say Luigi's Balloon World gives me the experience I'm looking for. A whole Mario game focussed on tight time limits and retrying the same path to maximize efficiency just doesn't appeal to me. It sounds a bit stressful even.
That said I think Odyssey's level design didn't do it's movement mechanics justice. While it'd be a shame to lose the exploration factor I enjoy, I think I might've enjoyed a 3D World approach to the level design more. In fact, It'd probably be the perfect melding of the two games, as 3D World could benefit from Odyssey's expressive mechanics and art direction just as much as Odyssey could benefit from 3D World's tighter level design. That's just me though.
Good video, you've got a good flow going.
I'd have to disagree with you on the movement. I found Odyssey's mocement mechanics to be way more cumbersome in linear segments. I think a 3D World sequel could benefit from having more powerups like the Cat Bell which add more versatility to Mario's moveset, though. I can totally get the argument that 3D World's movement could be a bit too simple for some.
@@MMLCommentaries I felt 3D World's mechanics were a bit rigid and simple yeah, though the button layout for Odyssey does make the mechanics awkward to use as well. Even giving the player full 360 degree movement might be a massive improvement for 3D World's feel personally.
Dude yeah, I just want stuff to more well hidden and non linear, but restricting my time limit to get what I'm looking for would be quite dumb
@@MMLCommentaries the closest thing we got is Bowsers Fury.
While I certainly enjoyed playing odyssey, I definitely agree with your take on balloon world/linearity. One big problem that I found when playing was that the value of each moon was incredibly variant e.g. kicking a rock around and doing a really complex challenge will both grant you one moon.
A possible way of solving this (if making another open-world game) may be to decrease the value of the moon even further, maybe like a 'golden star bit'. And to reward the player with a differing amount of these bits for completing certain tasks e.g. kicking the rock = 3 bits, defeating bowser = 25 bits. This could also make an open world easier as you could put more varied exploration-based challenges in without taking away from the harder ones.
Always nice hearing your thoughts! AND THAT OUTRO SGDJHGDSHA SO ADORABLE
My friend has two guinea pigs, so maybe the other one will want to appear in a future video? We'll see. The pet I really want to adopt is a bunny rabbit, but I have a lot of IRL stuff I need to work out before I adopt a furry friend of my own
Yoi said before you agree with Joseph Anderson.
Hopefully, this video isn't as negative, and the critisisim is more constrictive though...
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised
_Fair Warning: Long comment because I explain my gripes with the game._
Interesting discussion, I agree to a lesser extent. I think the main gameplay & level designs are great but practically everything rewards you with a Power Moon. As you pointed out in the video, the abundance devalues the collectible and makes you question why even bother doing this hard challenge for a Moon when you can find a way easier one or just buy more in the Post Game.
It's a problem that actually stems from the decision to get rid of Life Counter. If this was any other Mario game, so many Moons would've been 1-Up Mushrooms, but now without the need to have those there isn't a collectible to properly replace that kind of reward....except the main collectible OR creating a brand new collectible which didn't happen. And even then, there are still a lot of Moons that shouldn't exist. "I pounded 4 switches to unleash the boss for Seaside Kingdom...why did I just get 4 Moons for this simple task?" The Boss itself rewards you with 3 Moons so that's a total of SEVEN Moons for a mission that any other Mario game would've give you ONE for. Pounding those switches weren't even worth a 1-Up Mushroom much less multiple Power Moons!
On a different note, remember when everyone was talking about how huge the levels were in this game leading up to its release? Most of these levels are about as big as Sunshine or even 64's levels. The ones that are really big tend to be more linear (Bowser's Kingdom) or have large areas of empty space (Sand Kingdom) which results in having a lot of Moons close to each which hurts the exploration. If the Moons were spread out more as well as less of them, or at the very least not used for simple/meaningless tasks, then the game would be a much better game.
There also weren't many changes to the levels themselves like in previous games. Although a lot of people hate the "getting kicked out of the level" feature, it was utilized to have the level change a bit in SM64 and then dramatically in Sunshine. This would increase the exploration aspect because you could go back to a certain area & notice something was different. In Galaxy, the levels with heavy platforming would basically change completely for each Star so being kicked out & going back in was like going to a new level altogether.
In Odyssey, the only level that saw a huge change was Sand Kingdom where the Pyramid would flip upside down & start floating. Other levels would add a shortcut & maybe another change, or not change at all. I think this might be because you don't get kicked out of the level. How can you change up a level that has a bunch of collectibles in real time without moving them around or accidentally trapping them? The answer is you don't UNLESS you add a feature to switch between a level's different states...which Odyssey doesn't. The only time you can go back to a Kingdom's original state is during the Koopa Races but then that's not for exploring, it's to reach a goal in a time limit. Meanwhile a Mission Select that kicks you out of the level allows the level to be completely changed without any side effects that real time changes would have.
Since Odyssey has a crap ton of more Moons, a Mission Select would be horrible, so what should've been included was an option to switch between different states like Daytime/Nighttime versions or Seasons of the Year versions. You have 2 or more versions of the level that have their own set of Power Moons, these could be aesthetic changes or landscape changes so the level is actually multiple levels in disguise. This would increase the exploration aspect by a lot, especially if the Power Moons are in different places or even different challenges. It would also split the Power Moons between the different versions which would cut down on how many are in the same areas.
Super Mario Odyssey has a fantastic base for a 3D Mario game with it's gameplay, Cappy is a fun & unique mechanic and Mario himself controls better than ever before. It falls short in how it handles its collectibles, yes plenty of people love that the game has tons of Power Moons to collect, but from design perspective it's an overabundance. There needed to be another, less meaningful collectible to be used for simpler tasks OR cut back on how often the player is rewarded. In SMO there is no difference between receiving a Power Moon for pounding a spot on the ground, finding one in a secret location or receiving one from defeating a tough enemy....except sometimes you get 3 for defeating tough enemies. It's the same collectible and you can't even use it as a form of currency, only a progression meter that ends after collecting less than half of the total number of Moons in the game. Oh, it's also the reward for Achievements, but by the time you get to that, Moons have already fulfilled their purpose other than to increase their counter.
Wow, this is quite the comment! I agree with a decent chunk of what you have to say here. Thanks for the super insightful comment. I love seeing posts and comments like this.
So, BotW solves this problem with it's collectibles being as important as they are rare:
Korok seed (least important, there are 900)
Spirit Orb (more important, but one alone is useless)
Heart/Stamina containers (super useful and important)
Divine Beasts powers (super meaningful and useful, there are only 4 in the whole game)
And there are the extras (rupees, armor, equipment and photographs)
Mario could make use of this by having this:
Coins (they are just coins)
Super Mushroom (it will cure one hit from your health bar, if it's already full you just get coins and time-limited speed boost)
Purple coins (function like they already do, but they could be more useful and more well hidden)
LORE (some areas that you find will have something about the past of the place you're in, you take this thing to the historian of the kingdom and he will add what he found out on your panphlet)
Crowned heart (works like it already does, but now they are actually hidde and give you 3 purple coins if you are with full health)
Power moons (reward for completing the harder challenges in the game)
Triple Moon (reward for the hardest challenges in the game)
This gon be goooood.
There might actually be a way to see what a fully fleshed out Balloon World like game could be like. you know Kaze Emanuar? He’s that famous Mario 64 rom hacker who’s made tons of fantastic additional content for Mario 64 fans. And one of his romhacks turned Mario 64 into an online multiplayer game. If he could bring Mario 64 online, he could probably recreate Balloon World and then some. He takes commissions too. so if you have the cash, we could see what a fleshed out Balloon World could look like long before Nintendo would take a crack at it.
God, i am so glad I went to Shrekfest, this and the Thomas video are great and I am so glad that I found a cool ass content creator! Excited to see more, and I got notifs on!!!
Who knew that Shrekfest would be a good marketing tool? Thanks for watching!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Though I get the angle you're going for, I think you've failed to understand the appeal behind exploration-focused 3D platformers. In most 2D platformers (and indeed, 3D World and arguably Galaxy 2), the purpose of level design is to create a focused, tense challenge that slowly escalates in difficulty to test the player's technical ability and mechanical awareness. The joy of these games comes from overcoming progressively more difficult challenges and feeling as though you have mastery over the game mechanics. It's a very "I'm good at playing video games, see?" sort of feeling, similar to the appeal of taking on something like Dark Souls or Meat Boy.
The exploration focus of most (not all, see Sonic or Crash games) 3D platformers, by contrast, is in immersion of its environment and using the mechanics of your moveset to unearth pathways to intuit your way to a location. While 2D platformers often demand you engage with level design in a very designer-intended way, 3D platformers offer the suggestion of progression, but ultimately leave the player to find the way to the goal (or any number of goals, not merely one specific one) in the manner of their choosing. It asks the player to become intimate with its level design as though you were finding your way around a childhood park or mall, rather than a freeway.
By placing constraints on the player in a CONSISTENT manner of play, you are asking them to approach 3D level design from 2D platformer sensibilities, which is entirely counter to the appeal of immersing yourself in a 3D space. The reason why something like Balloon World or the Koopa Races are limited to a side mode is because they rely on the player already being familiar with the level design from already having explored it by completing more casual, player-paced objectives first. These sorts of challenges are a fun pace-breaker to test exactly how familiar you are with the level design, but you can only demand that of the player so many times before it becomes incredibly exhausting.
For reference, this is coming from someone who liked but didn't love Odyssey. My favorite Mario games are 64 and Sunshine by a wide margin (SMB3 probably coming in third), and the reason why I feel Odyssey doesn't stack up to them is for three primary reasons. Firstly, generally less focused mission structures (which would mix up level design in subtle ways to combine intimacy with freshness, asking you to approach old problems with new solutions). Secondly, a less cohesive sense of connectivity, which while not directly contributing to gameplay, made the environments feel more compartmentalized and like "video game levels," as opposed to being part of a greater interconnected world. And thirdly, a generally tighter moveset that doesn't allow for the same degree of player expression as seen in 64 and Sunshine (I primarily blame this on the way Odyssey handled diving; in prior games, it was momentum based, based off the speed you entered the dive in, then progressively gaining speed. In Odyssey, it's always a fixed speed, which makes stuff like the Cappy bouncing more consistent, but less interesting.)
I definitely agree with your point of Moons feeling less valuable due to their abundance, and I think that's an aspect on Nintendo's philosophy where "missions should be inherently fulfilling because they're fun to do, not for their reward" kind of falls apart a little. The reward for a given task in a game should be equivalent to the amount of effort required to complete that task. This is where stuff like Banjo's Jinjos or Spyro's dragon eggs would've been an appropriate system, but alas, this is what we ended up with. I just suppose it's funny how we both desire for Odyssey to be a jumping off point for a more mechanically interesting game, but the experience we desire are kind of at odds with each other. Here's hoping that no matter whose side wins out, we get a better game for it (though let's be honest, the most realistic scenario is that we're both left disappointed.)
We did get Bowsers Fury, was that close enough?
Get ready for the hate comments!!
Nah, JK.
But anyways, great video!! At first, I thought it was just gonna be you being all like "Scap the open world formula, it'll never work". But then when I actually heard your thoughts on this whole "problem" and how to solve it, I was quite surprised! And I have to agree with it was well. I definitely do feel like Loogy's...... balloon.... game.... whatever you call it, definitely was what Oddyssey should've been. A series of missions and collectables that encourage the player to explore and do certain tricks that they've would've never thought of before. And I definitely do think that'd be a great solution. Other than just sprinkling collectables everywhere for no reason at all.
Kinda surprised you didn't touch upon the whole capturing gimmick though. Despite this being a more personal thing, I feel like the while capturing gimmick was highly unutilized. And whenever it was used, it was either used in very basic situations or used in linear platforming rooms that went comepletely against the whole "open world" formula. Especially knowing that another game that had a similar gimmick, *Space Station Sillicon Valley,* used this gimmick MUCH more creatively. Seeing as how in that game enemies actually do react to each other, whether you're controlling them or not. Leading to MANY possibilities on how you wanna tackle the enemies. *(Highly suggest you watch Nitro Rad's video if you want more info on it)* And it only makes me wish that Odyssey had something like this. But it's just a personal thing though, nothing much more than that.
Anyways, great video!! And a little sad that no one watches your content. But, whatever.
toasty bunz Loogy
I think the main reason I didn't touch on the captures is because I don't really have much to say about them. The real challenge with making a game about capturing other creatures is the same challenge you have with making a water level: you have to build a whole new control system for each individual capture. And ultimately, I didn't find most of the captures to be particularly satisfying, but I also understand that that's just me. I don't think Mario Odyssey needed the capture gimmick to succeed at what it was trying to do. I just want Nintendo to make a good open-world platforming game for the people that really want it.
@@MMLCommentaries
About Joseph Anderson and Lambhoot's videos on this game...
Just gonna be blatant here... I kinda don't like there videos. Joseph Anderson's especially. As I feel like his points were very half baked and almost like he just kinda rushed it all. Thought Lambhoot's is DEFINITELY better than Anderson's, i still cant shake off the feeling that he was just trying to force down his opinions down our throats. As his tone in voice and poorly placements of words kinda gave off this forceful mood. Especially near the end, where he claims "Mario should only be linear". The same problem I had with Anderson's video.
And admittedly this is the reason why Iike this video more than the other 2 videos I mentioned. This video just feels more open minded and the ideas and topics feel more clear. And the solution you give to fix Odyssey's formula is DEFINITELY better than Lambhoot's option.
Overall, this video is just WAY more better than Anderson or Lambhoot's video.
More like it's freedom you knew eight months ago when Zelda did that exact same thing.
This is really solid
no u
As someone who doesn't get this game design stuff at all this is a pretty banger explanation, Thanks! Also give Oliver a head rub for me~
He's not my guinea pig, but next time I see him I absolutely will!
@@MMLCommentaries 👍
Please analyze Bowser’s Fury and why it nearly fixed everything wrong with the 3D Mario games and the conflict with 2D Mario
In continuing with my hot take trend I actually didn't like Bowser's Fury as much as other people! I'm sorta done with making videos on Mario games for now, would rather work on other projects but I may revisit down the line.
well, I disagree with most of your points, it is a good video.
The point I really don't understand the "you can just buy a moon".
Buying a moon increases your moon count, but, aside from the first purchase in every kingdom, it doesn't fill up the objective list.
You still need to get every moon to 100% the game, so why wouldn't players do that.
I think it depends on what people's goals are when playing the game. If you want to unlock the last level then you only need 500 moons. If you're at 499 and have thr appropriate amount of coins, I'd imagine most players would just buy that last moon, even if it means missing out on content they might potentially enjoy more.
Is weird that not all moons are of equal value to obtain, but are of equal value to move to the next world and beat the game. Is this a sort of difficulty slider?
Well, okay. Admittingly it was a lotttt better than Joseph Anderson's video on Mario Odyssey. However, here's where I disagree:
-While I get why you would want Mario Odyssey to be more challenging, I never really thought it needed to be challenging. To me, the game wasn't really going for that. And it's pretty evident in the moon collectable system.
-I also disagree with taking out exploration in 3D Mario games. To me, I find an inherent satisfaction to get better at your moveset and using it to explore the worlds in Odyssey.
-I never thought buying moons took away from doing the other objectives tbh. I see it as a choose your own experience with Mario Odyssey. And I think most people still want to do the Koopa Races for example regardless of Moon collection because it's fun.
-And in general, I just don't buy that the challenge rooms were a worser implementation of the 3D World linear challenges. I saw them more as a harken back to what Sunshine would do. And I thought those were pretty fun. Regardless, while I strongly disagree with your take on Mario Odyssey, I at least think it's better than Joseph Anderson's video. I was not a big fan of how Joseph structured his video tbh.
(On a side note: I saw his video. Didn't like it at all.)
Super Gamer61499 I’m just curious, but why don’t you like Joseph Anderson’s take on Odyssey?
Mario Odyssey's moon collectable system doesn't incentivize challenge, but results in an intentionally addictive system I would argue is to its detriment. More on that in my Odyssey Episode 0 vid.
Mario's moveset offers some good movement options, but the overall heavily Capped momentum limits the exploration's potential. And I'm in the boat that the kingdoms are restrictive in that regard for the most part. The kingdoms seem to focus on quantity rather than quality, which is disappointing esp when the cohesive building blocks were there.
Straight up buying moons devalues the entire moon reward system, no matter the potential benefit. If you are buying moons to reach a higher moon count, you'd only do it in the first place if you're trying to reach some moon milestone quicker, which is against the entire point of a collectathon, or you'd only do so if there are some moons you don't want to discover or scour for. I do not think there is any worthwhile benefit.
The Sunshine rooms aren't comparable to Odyssey's, because Odyssey's challenge is low, the platforming is rare, and the rooms' implementations of Odyssey's core capture system were very poorly done. So I think it's fair to say that the challenge rooms weren't well-implemented, whether compared to 3D World or Sunshine.
Yeah, Joseph Anderson's video was poorly structured with a lot of fluff.
All of your points I think mostly stem from a perspective of intrinsic motivation. A lot of people love running around the worlds of a game like Odyssey just for the sake of running around them, but I just don't feel that way personally. I think the angle I tried to take with this video was to frame my criticism around the lens of inclusion. Because the 3D Mario game I like most already exists, what needs to change for there to be a 3D Mario game that everyone else will like most?
Thanks for the comment, I appreciate hearing opposing perspectives and viewpoints!
@@ozark5247 Just generally imo, poorly structured,frustrating to watch,and overall, not a video I want to watch period again. There's a lot I can say. But i'll just say this. I hate how forceful Joseph fanboys are about his video on the game.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I disagree with all but the last point you brought up. I do not think buying moons are a detriment. Nor do I think the kingdoms are restrictive. The opposite actually. I also disagree on the implementation of the challenge rooms being "poor". I think they were a nice deviation from the general exploration. Like the 2D segments.
Good news in 2021: Bowsers Fury actually fixed your problem with Mario Odyssey!
Bowser's Fury was alright! I think it was a fun little experiment that could be a nice base to build something larger on top of. Main issue I had with that one was the controls. Can't run and move the camera at the same without holding the controller in a super weird way.
While I understand and respect your opinion, you could not be farther away from my experience with Mario games.
The two things I agree on is that locking a bunch of moons behind the post-game is dumb. I really don't like that and forces the player to play the linear story as fast as they can before actually being able to actually play a free 3d roaming game.
The second thing is the world map being so linear is also counter intuitive to the design.
But other than that, my experience is totally different. I, for one, found 3D World to be really long, boring and just too by the number. It's like it is never ending and every level just start feeling te same. I remember almost nothing about the game, even though I played all the way true it.
Also, having an easy way to buy moons isn't deteriorating to my experience, it is specifically for young and less good players who want to progress. I don't feel bad if someone else beats the game by only paying for moons. I still have that list of collectibles to get.
And Lastly, I had no enjoyment with balloon world. The whole coin system is too punishing and you can get locked out of this mode for not being as good as other players. And the fact that the starting point is always the same, just makes every run feels same-y to me.
To sum up, I really like odyssey, and even tho they are problems (and even some that you pointed out that I agree on), Most of what you propose to fix it is exactly what I don't want in a sequel. I don't want player interaction in my mario game.
Make moons trickier to get too, less glowy things, make the missions names easier to look up live, add balloon world style missions, don't make repeat missions, make every moon available from the start, have a more dynamic hub world and make the post-game new worlds to run around in, even if they are way smaller.
I'm a bit cautious with a title like that tbh. I love Mario Odyssey so this might either be an interesting what if. Or genuinely upset me tbh.
You sound obnoxiously entitled
Don’t forget it need fully voice acting in the game
No. Voice acting wouldn’t fit, and it would make it cringe like Sunshine. Unless it’s the minimal voice acting from Luigi’s Mansion 3.
How ya feel about Bowser's Fury tho?
So in short odyssey is trash and balloon world should be it's own Game jk odyssey is flawed and balloon worlds concept needs to be it's own Game
Joke about Nintendo online
Super Mario Odyssey was Heavily Rushed