"I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works for my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God." - St. John of Damascus
One thing that is never mentioned in thiese videos is that in order to be an Orthodox Christian, saved and to be saved, it is necessary to venerate the icons. this is a clear addition to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins". Making it necessary and indispensable for salvation. This is not the same when I kiss a picture of a loved one. Many don't have any issues with venerating. Showing love respecting reverence for others and for objects, the problem lies when you make it. An necessity to be under saving grace and in communion with God.
@@felixquintana5784 to deny the veneration of icons is to deny the reality of Christ's incarnation and the purifying effect it has on world. Can one truly be saved while denying the incarnation?
@@NavelOrangeGazer to deny ikons is to deny Christ? Obviously this rule was made by men who advocated for icons during the iconoclasm period. Are all icons to be venerated or just select few in your church? Is this only for the icons depicting Christ and Theotokos or applicable to any “official” icon. Is me passing by one icon but venerating the one next to it an offense? Do you see how preposterous this is?
Protestants venerate the US flag by taking their hats off, standing and putting their hands over their hearts. It's pretty much the same concept. The flag represents the principles of the US Republic and by doing those acts of veneration, they are by extension honoring those principles they believe are true. The flag itself is an image representing something.
@@webz3589 Take that principle and apply it to any Protestant who has national pride to honor a thing represented by that country. But my comment was towards those in my country which my point still stands. Millions of Prots venerate the flag yet have problems with Holy images.
One thing that is never mentioned in thiese videos is that in order to be an Orthodox Christian, saved and to be saved, it is necessary to venerate the icons. this is a clear addition to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins". Making it necessary and indispensable for salvation. This is not the same when I kiss a picture of a loved one. Many don't have any issues with venerating. Showing love respecting reverence for others and for objects, the problem lies when you make it. An necessity to be under saving grace and in communion with God.
That analogy with the war soldier was pretty cool. That is a interesting way to think about it. I'd love to hear a orthodox Jewish person's thoughts on that analogy
This was very helpful, I’m still very new to the Orthodox Church and I understand why we venerate icons but I didn’t know how exaclty how to go about it
Although Catholics also venerate religious images, iconography is most often associated with the Eastern or Orthodox Church, which teaches that the use of icons during prayer helps the worshiper know God, be united with the holy saints, and develop the fruit of the Spirit. When an Orthodox Christian enters his church, he lights a candle, makes the sign of the cross, and then kisses the icons of Christ, the Theotokos (Mary), and the saints. The church sanctuary will contain many other “Holy Icons,” as they’re called. Orthodox Christians are to have icons at home, too, and the place where the icons are kept is where family prayers are offered. Icons are seen as an illustration of the Incarnation of Christ, who left His spiritual abode to dwell in a material world. The devout also believe that an icon is a window into heaven, and their veneration passes straight to heaven, where it is received by the person depicted in the icon. Some claim that icons have facilitated miracles. John Calvin and the other Protestant Reformers were iconoclasts; that is, they demanded the removal of icons from churches and homes. According to the Reformers, the veneration of icons and other religious artifacts was idolatry, and they were right. Any kissing of, bowing down before, or praying toward an icon is certainly idolatrous. Members of the Orthodox Church insist that they are not worshiping the paint and wood, but they admit that they give veneration, adoration, and reverence to the saints and Mary depicted in the icons. They pray to men and women; they ascribe to the icons a spiritual power that it does not possess. This is unbiblical. There is nothing wrong with producing or enjoying religious art, per se. Viewing a painting of a biblical scene in an art gallery and admiring the artist’s technique cannot be considered idolatry. Having a picture of Jesus or of angels in one’s home may not be idolatry, either. Iconography can be studied as an art form, and icons can be viewed as fascinating examples of historical religious art. But using icons to aid one’s worship or viewing them as a “window to heaven” is definitely idolatry. The Bible strictly forbids idolatry (Leviticus 26:1; Deuteronomy 5:9). God alone deserves to be bowed down to and worshiped. Icons are not intercessors before the throne of grace, and neither are the saints they represent. People in heaven do not have the power to hear our prayers or grant our requests. Only Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit can intercede for us before the Father (Romans 8:26-27, 34). We should stay as far away as we can from anything that could possibly lead to idolatry. God sent poisonous serpents into the camp, and people began to die. This showed the people that they were the ones in sin, and they came to Moses to confess that sin and ask for God’s mercy. When Moses prayed for the people, God instructed him to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole so the people could be healed (Numbers 21:5-7). God was teaching the people something about faith. It is totally illogical to think that looking at a bronze image could heal anyone from snakebite, but that is exactly what God told them to do. It took an act of faith in God’s plan for anyone to be healed, and the serpent on the stick was a reminder of their sin which brought about their suffering. There is no connection between this serpent and the serpent which Satan spoke through in the Garden of Eden. This serpent was symbolic of the serpents God used to chastise the people for their unbelief. they looked at the serpent, nothing more. they did not keep it. the temple images were never worshiped.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. At the end, tho, you said "they looked at the serpent, but they did not keep it." But, in fact, they did keep it. And that brazen serpent became a snare unto them. And so, God commended King Ahaz: And Ahaz did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. He removed the high places, **and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.** Ahaz trusted in the LORD God of Israel. 1Kin16
Honest Protestant question: Is the purpose of icons to show honor and help us on earth to focus our prayers? Is the connection made through the use of the icon symbolic and done in rememberance, a spiritual connection or bridge only possible through the icon, or real and mysterious?
Icons and Intercession are always explained as "we keep a picture of someone we love" , or "we ask people to pray for us" as not being any different - but they are vastly different as a practice. Especially because when it comes to religion, they create room for creating idols and shifting focus. I can understand keeping icons as remembrance, but I struggle to understand it becoming a practice to come up to an icon, do a hand gesture, kiss its hand and bow. Is it just tradition - a practice in rememberance? Because I don't see any outright scripture saying we should do these things, there are hints at Intercession, but we aren't outright told to pray to the saints and they'll intercede on our behalf?
That is a good question, one that could probably be better answered by a priest, but I will attempt to answer 🙂 I would hesitate to say that icon veneration is "required", as in "you have to do this or you aren't Orthodox." It certainly is the teaching of the Orthodox Church that the veneration of icons is an integral part of the spiritual life. Yet the viewpoint would probably be more along the lines of, as we grow in our faith in and love for Our Lord, and as we grow in admiration for His Mother, the Saints, and appreciation for the holy days/feasts of the Church, we are compelled to venerate their icons to show our affection for them. So yes, icon veneration is a tradition in the Church. The word "tradition" simply means something that is passed down. Icons/iconography have been passed down since the earliest days of the Christian faith. Whether it's required may not be the most accurate approach, although I think that it is an excellent question! I think what you're getting at is, what role does iconography play in the life of the Orthodox Christian? Again, I am not a priest, nor any kind of scholar. I am just a layman! But I'm sure that if you find a nearby parish and ask a priest there, he can probably give a more in-depth answer than me. God bless you, friend!
That’s why Jesus came down from heaven! To be our intercessor and a direct line to the Father! but mankind always seems to look for ways to water that down and add fillers to what doesn’t need it.
As far as I know - maybe - but one has to be careful not to buy unorthodox icons… so it’s always best to look for icons from reputable sources…. And remember how icons are part of our integrated in our spiritual lives… they are not ‘art’… and my personal practice - they are only found in my icon corner - with the exception of the Mystical Supper Icon that graces above my dining table. If you’re looking for a specific icon - the reputable sources generally have searchable product offerings list. Hope this helps.
Acts 19:12 "so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them." Same concept in that God works through matter.
Use of icons is not *mandatory*…. But they are certainly part of our piety. As an Orthodox Christian the notion of ‘mandatory’ just seems legalistic and sounds like buzzing in my ears. As I grow in the measure of grace already present in my life - it’s by my volition I approach God - in faith and love drawing near. I don’t ‘have to have’ icons… I could wean things down to a paltry lists of essentials like the rational thought Christianity folks seem to have. Rather, I can have a fuller and more vibrant expression of faith… and rather than trying to figure all things out - which seems very common in the Fractured West - I allow God to remain God … I don’t have to figure it all out. I love leaving the profound mysteries and interactions *alone*. Trust you’re well.
@@andys3035 The word idols (elilim) means the "nothings" which the heathen substituted for the Lord God. The graven image (here meaning a carved wooden image), the standing image (meaning a sacred pillar), and the image of stone (that is, a sculptured stone idol), are the three forms of images under which adoration was paid, whether to the true God or to a false doily. *The expression, to bow down unto (or towards) it, forbids worshipping before an image as well as worshipping an image* . Leviticus 26:1
And Orthodox don't bow down to them, nor worship them. So idk why you bothered with the weak Prot talking point. Imagine talking to a brother or sister and it be called worship.
@@taasch2505The Idolater John of Damascus dogmatically declared that all Christians bow down to these images and kiss it, and anyone who wouldn't is to be accursed, the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox holds to this doctrine that is codemned by God, the false doctrine of the 7th ecumenical council. Why use images for worship? Isn't Liturgy, Hymns and Preaching enough? Inventing and adding to what God had already established as proper worship is dangerous, I say this with Love.
@@taasch2505 I live in an Orthodox country. People bow to icons, relics, etc. There is also a lot of folk superstition around the icons that is stunning the first time you see it.
Pray to God to give you more wisdom and discernment to help with your journey. If it REALLY bothers you then you are doing a good job. That's the Ruah Hakodesh telling you this aint right
Icons are the one thing you will never convince me are not idols. The analogy of the soldier and the picture doesn't exactly transfer well. I don't cross myself and bow down to the picture. Also, destroying that picture wouldn't mean anything, however destroying an icon, that's basically blasphemy to the Orthodox. Bowing yourself to it, crossing yourself, and kissing it, sounds like worship to me. And by the way, loving your spouse or children more than you love God can also be a form of idolatry. Also, this idea that some Christians are saints and some are not, is not scriptural. According to the Bible, all true Christians are saints and there is no need to put some Christians above others. I guarantee that the Apostle Paul would write an epistle to the Orthodox Church regarding icons if he was here today.
We don’t worship it we’ve venerate the same way you have pictures of your dead relatives is exactly what the icons mean and Paul would definitely not write anything about icons because icons were thing during his time as well the first church, the one holy Catholic and apostolic church used icons. They just look much different today. But the form of iconography was in use. Everything you said here was false. I recommend you to really study history. and also the orthodox church is the most accurate church today and it’s the one that has never changed. It’s been the same since the first century.
And your claim about the Saints, remember you are a protestant from what I’m seeing here your Bibles have seven missing books so you’re missing seven entire books full of information so icons are not idolatry. Just because you think they are doesn’t make them that and I hope you have no photos of your family no photos of dead relatives no photos of yourself because the verse that you’re probably referring to the don’t make any of the grieving images if you take that, literally you can’t have photos of yourself either
In Exodus God told the Israelites to fashion sculptures of the seraphim and cherubim over the ark of the covenant. In the Jewish temple, there were images and engravings. When the law referred to idols in scripture, it means the literal worship of the image or the engraving over God. It is not unlawful to use images within the worship, but it is unlawful to idolize the images and worship them in place of God.
@@donhaddix3770 Bowing does not denote worship. Many cultures bow before their elders or when meeting a new person. As a vet, does saluting someone mean that you are worshipping them? If in combat, does kissing a picture of my wife mean that I am worshipping or idolizing the picture? The obvious answer is no. Worship is only reserved for the Triune God. We show respect to our family in Christ, we do not worship them. Orthodox Christianity is the way Christian’s worshiped for 2000+ years, since the day of Pentecost.
@@Lycurgus47 in chinese culture how far you bow indicate authority. as mayor I never bowed to chinese leaders. they bowed to me AND i DID NOT LIKE IT. it is a power play. their subordinates groveled. disgusting. so stop injecting off topic issues. bowing to an image makes the image something more. Although Catholics also venerate religious images, iconography is most often associated with the Eastern or Orthodox Church, which teaches that the use of icons during prayer helps the worshiper know God, be united with the holy saints, and develop the fruit of the Spirit. When an Orthodox Christian enters his church, he lights a candle, makes the sign of the cross, and then kisses the icons of Christ, the Theotokos (Mary), and the saints. The church sanctuary will contain many other “Holy Icons,” as they’re called. Orthodox Christians are to have icons at home, too, and the place where the icons are kept is where family prayers are offered. Icons are seen as an illustration of the Incarnation of Christ, who left His spiritual abode to dwell in a material world. The devout also believe that an icon is a window into heaven, and their veneration passes straight to heaven, where it is received by the person depicted in the icon. Some claim that icons have facilitated miracles. John Calvin and the other Protestant Reformers were iconoclasts; that is, they demanded the removal of icons from churches and homes. According to the Reformers, the veneration of icons and other religious artifacts was idolatry, and they were right. Any kissing of, bowing down before, or praying toward an icon is certainly idolatrous. Members of the Orthodox Church insist that they are not worshiping the paint and wood, but they admit that they give veneration, adoration, and reverence to the saints and Mary depicted in the icons. They pray to men and women; they ascribe to the icons a spiritual power that it does not possess. This is unbiblical. There is nothing wrong with producing or enjoying religious art, per se. Viewing a painting of a biblical scene in an art gallery and admiring the artist’s technique cannot be considered idolatry. Having a picture of Jesus or of angels in one’s home may not be idolatry, either. Iconography can be studied as an art form, and icons can be viewed as fascinating examples of historical religious art. But using icons to aid one’s worship or viewing them as a “window to heaven” is definitely idolatry. The Bible strictly forbids idolatry (Leviticus 26:1; Deuteronomy 5:9). God alone deserves to be bowed down to and worshiped. Icons are not intercessors before the throne of grace, and neither are the saints they represent. People in heaven do not have the power to hear our prayers or grant our requests. Only Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit can intercede for us before the Father (Romans 8:26-27, 34). We should stay as far away as we can from anything that could possibly lead to idolatry. God sent poisonous serpents into the camp, and people began to die. This showed the people that they were the ones in sin, and they came to Moses to confess that sin and ask for God’s mercy. When Moses prayed for the people, God instructed him to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole so the people could be healed (Numbers 21:5-7). God was teaching the people something about faith. It is totally illogical to think that looking at a bronze image could heal anyone from snakebite, but that is exactly what God told them to do. It took an act of faith in God’s plan for anyone to be healed, and the serpent on the stick was a reminder of their sin which brought about their suffering. There is no connection between this serpent and the serpent which Satan spoke through in the Garden of Eden. This serpent was symbolic of the serpents God used to chastise the people for their unbelief. they looked at the serpent, nothing more. they did not keep it. the temple images were never worshiped.
@@donhaddix3770 so is kissing a picture of your family members and thinking about them during hard times considered worship in your mind? I say again - veneration does not equal worship or idolatry. Calvin and Luther were well meaning heretics against the church Christ formed. Jewish worship looked almost identical to how the Orthodox Church worships today. The same practices we’re implemented by the apostles (who were Jewish). In fact St. Luke himself was an iconographic and made icons of the Theotokos and of Christ. Your arguing against the beliefs of the church fathers and of Christs apostles. The church worshipped this way since Christ ascended into heaven. You worship the way that was established hundreds of years ago. The Orthodox Church worships the way Christs followers worshipped 2000 years ago. Check your ego at the door and put away your false assumptions.
One thing that is never mentioned in thiese videos is that in order to be an Orthodox Christian, saved and to be saved, it is necessary to venerate the icons. this is a clear addition to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins". Making it necessary and indispensable for salvation. This is not the same when I kiss a picture of a loved one. Many don't have any issues with venerating. Showing love respecting reverence for others and for objects, the problem lies when you make it. An necessity to be under saving grace and in communion with God.
@@IAMFISH92 Would you care to find the quote for me please? I'm having trouble finding where in the text it says that venerating icons is necessary for salvation
Apostle Paul says we are the written epistles seen by all men. Their are no physical description of Jesus or mary or any character in the whole canon. The imagination of man is evil from his youth.
@@joshuatrott193 sure like jesus command call no man on earth father or teacher yet your man made traditions try to use any lame excuse to make pope's as holy fathers or most revered pastor. Archbishop or cardinal that is of man made traditions as a dogma.
@@frederickanderson1860 now your devolving to a different issue. Let's stick with one thing which is your comment on video and art. You've stated your opinion without backing it up. Where is the command about art? Where does it say depictions of Christ are evil?
No, dead saints do no hear your prayers. They are not God. They are not omnipresent. They could never hear more than one saints prayers at a time, they are not god.
"I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works for my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God."
- St. John of Damascus
One thing that is never mentioned in thiese videos is that in order to be an Orthodox Christian, saved and to be saved, it is necessary to venerate the icons. this is a clear addition to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins". Making it necessary and indispensable for salvation. This is not the same when I kiss a picture of a loved one. Many don't have any issues with venerating. Showing love respecting reverence for others and for objects, the problem lies when you make it.
An necessity to be under saving grace and in communion with God.
@@felixquintana5784 to deny the veneration of icons is to deny the reality of Christ's incarnation and the purifying effect it has on world. Can one truly be saved while denying the incarnation?
@@NavelOrangeGazer to deny ikons is to deny Christ? Obviously this rule was made by men who advocated for icons during the iconoclasm period. Are all icons to be venerated or just select few in your church? Is this only for the icons depicting Christ and Theotokos or applicable to any “official” icon. Is me passing by one icon but venerating the one next to it an offense? Do you see how preposterous this is?
@felixquintana5784 - as wrong here as it was other times you've posted it. Anathemas are not what you think they are.
Protestants venerate the US flag by taking their hats off, standing and putting their hands over their hearts. It's pretty much the same concept. The flag represents the principles of the US Republic and by doing those acts of veneration, they are by extension honoring those principles they believe are true. The flag itself is an image representing something.
Yes Protestants all over the world venerate the flag of the USA 😂😂😂😂
@@webz3589 Take that principle and apply it to any Protestant who has national pride to honor a thing represented by that country. But my comment was towards those in my country which my point still stands. Millions of Prots venerate the flag yet have problems with Holy images.
One thing that is never mentioned in thiese videos is that in order to be an Orthodox Christian, saved and to be saved, it is necessary to venerate the icons. this is a clear addition to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins". Making it necessary and indispensable for salvation. This is not the same when I kiss a picture of a loved one. Many don't have any issues with venerating. Showing love respecting reverence for others and for objects, the problem lies when you make it.
An necessity to be under saving grace and in communion with God.
@@felixquintana5784 we do not teach icon veneration is tied to salvation. Where did you get that?
@@felixquintana5784I'm Catholic within the Latin Rite, but you're just wrong. I'm guessing you're Evangelical or Baptist
Thats probably the best analogy Ive heard for icon veneration. Perfect! Thanks Fr Theophan.
According to the Church doctrine you will not be saved unless you venerate the icons.
That analogy with the war soldier was pretty cool. That is a interesting way to think about it. I'd love to hear a orthodox Jewish person's thoughts on that analogy
Wow that analogy of the soldier and the picture of his wife made so much sense when it comes to icons
✝️ ХРИСТОС ВОСКРЕС 🙏
This was very helpful, I’m still very new to the Orthodox Church and I understand why we venerate icons but I didn’t know how exaclty how to go about it
Thank you for a wonderful explanation.
Beautiful!
Please build more Orthodox Churches in the Americas, if you need money i can help
👏👏👏👏
Although Catholics also venerate religious images, iconography is most often associated with the Eastern or Orthodox Church, which teaches that the use of icons during prayer helps the worshiper know God, be united with the holy saints, and develop the fruit of the Spirit. When an Orthodox Christian enters his church, he lights a candle, makes the sign of the cross, and then kisses the icons of Christ, the Theotokos (Mary), and the saints. The church sanctuary will contain many other “Holy Icons,” as they’re called. Orthodox Christians are to have icons at home, too, and the place where the icons are kept is where family prayers are offered. Icons are seen as an illustration of the Incarnation of Christ, who left His spiritual abode to dwell in a material world. The devout also believe that an icon is a window into heaven, and their veneration passes straight to heaven, where it is received by the person depicted in the icon. Some claim that icons have facilitated miracles. John Calvin and the other Protestant Reformers were iconoclasts; that is, they demanded the removal of icons from churches and homes. According to the Reformers, the veneration of icons and other religious artifacts was idolatry, and they were right. Any kissing of, bowing down before, or praying toward an icon is certainly idolatrous. Members of the Orthodox Church insist that they are not worshiping the paint and wood, but they admit that they give veneration, adoration, and reverence to the saints and Mary depicted in the icons. They pray to men and women; they ascribe to the icons a spiritual power that it does not possess. This is unbiblical. There is nothing wrong with producing or enjoying religious art, per se. Viewing a painting of a biblical scene in an art gallery and admiring the artist’s technique cannot be considered idolatry. Having a picture of Jesus or of angels in one’s home may not be idolatry, either. Iconography can be studied as an art form, and icons can be viewed as fascinating examples of historical religious art. But using icons to aid one’s worship or viewing them as a “window to heaven” is definitely idolatry.
The Bible strictly forbids idolatry (Leviticus 26:1; Deuteronomy 5:9). God alone deserves to be bowed down to and worshiped. Icons are not intercessors before the throne of grace, and neither are the saints they represent. People in heaven do not have the power to hear our prayers or grant our requests. Only Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit can intercede for us before the Father (Romans 8:26-27, 34). We should stay as far away as we can from anything that could possibly lead to idolatry.
God sent poisonous serpents into the camp, and people began to die. This showed the people that they were the ones in sin, and they came to Moses to confess that sin and ask for God’s mercy. When Moses prayed for the people, God instructed him to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole so the people could be healed (Numbers 21:5-7). God was teaching the people something about faith. It is totally illogical to think that looking at a bronze image could heal anyone from snakebite, but that is exactly what God told them to do. It took an act of faith in God’s plan for anyone to be healed, and the serpent on the stick was a reminder of their sin which brought about their suffering. There is no connection between this serpent and the serpent which Satan spoke through in the Garden of Eden. This serpent was symbolic of the serpents God used to chastise the people for their unbelief.
they looked at the serpent, nothing more. they did not keep it.
the temple images were never worshiped.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. At the end, tho, you said "they looked at the serpent, but they did not keep it."
But, in fact, they did keep it. And that brazen serpent became a snare unto them. And so, God commended King Ahaz:
And Ahaz did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. He removed the high places, **and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.** Ahaz trusted in the LORD God of Israel.
1Kin16
@@AnHebrewChild good clarity thank you.
I should ave been clearer. thanks.
the lesson is icons becoming idols.
@@donhaddix3770 right on :] Have a good day.
Honest Protestant question: Is the purpose of icons to show honor and help us on earth to focus our prayers? Is the connection made through the use of the icon symbolic and done in rememberance, a spiritual connection or bridge only possible through the icon, or real and mysterious?
Icons and Intercession are always explained as "we keep a picture of someone we love" , or "we ask people to pray for us" as not being any different - but they are vastly different as a practice. Especially because when it comes to religion, they create room for creating idols and shifting focus. I can understand keeping icons as remembrance, but I struggle to understand it becoming a practice to come up to an icon, do a hand gesture, kiss its hand and bow. Is it just tradition - a practice in rememberance? Because I don't see any outright scripture saying we should do these things, there are hints at Intercession, but we aren't outright told to pray to the saints and they'll intercede on our behalf?
Is generation required in orthodoxy or is it a tradition? As a Protestant I’m interested in orthodoxy :) ✝️☦️
That is a good question, one that could probably be better answered by a priest, but I will attempt to answer 🙂 I would hesitate to say that icon veneration is "required", as in "you have to do this or you aren't Orthodox." It certainly is the teaching of the Orthodox Church that the veneration of icons is an integral part of the spiritual life. Yet the viewpoint would probably be more along the lines of, as we grow in our faith in and love for Our Lord, and as we grow in admiration for His Mother, the Saints, and appreciation for the holy days/feasts of the Church, we are compelled to venerate their icons to show our affection for them. So yes, icon veneration is a tradition in the Church. The word "tradition" simply means something that is passed down. Icons/iconography have been passed down since the earliest days of the Christian faith. Whether it's required may not be the most accurate approach, although I think that it is an excellent question! I think what you're getting at is, what role does iconography play in the life of the Orthodox Christian? Again, I am not a priest, nor any kind of scholar. I am just a layman! But I'm sure that if you find a nearby parish and ask a priest there, he can probably give a more in-depth answer than me. God bless you, friend!
25 years of being a protestant led me to Orthodoxy.
That’s why Jesus came down from heaven! To be our intercessor and a direct line to the Father! but mankind always seems to look for ways to water that down and add fillers to what doesn’t need it.
Is there a book with all the icons?
As far as I know - maybe - but one has to be careful not to buy unorthodox icons… so it’s always best to look for icons from reputable sources…. And remember how icons are part of our integrated in our spiritual lives… they are not ‘art’… and my personal practice - they are only found in my icon corner - with the exception of the Mystical Supper Icon that graces above my dining table. If you’re looking for a specific icon - the reputable sources generally have searchable product offerings list. Hope this helps.
@@realmccoy124 Thank you. I have a reputable source that I have used and so far just have a few mini icons.
@@leslielousma7913 I hsve few mini icons. God Bless you all "brothers and sisters" in Christ from Belgrade, Serbia.
Is the use of icons mandatory?
How is it that carved icons can emit the divine energies, and where can I find that in Scripture?
Acts 19:12 "so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them."
Same concept in that God works through matter.
Use of icons is not *mandatory*…. But they are certainly part of our piety. As an Orthodox Christian the notion of ‘mandatory’ just seems legalistic and sounds like buzzing in my ears. As I grow in the measure of grace already present in my life - it’s by my volition I approach God - in faith and love drawing near. I don’t ‘have to have’ icons… I could wean things down to a paltry lists of essentials like the rational thought Christianity folks seem to have. Rather, I can have a fuller and more vibrant expression of faith… and rather than trying to figure all things out - which seems very common in the Fractured West - I allow God to remain God … I don’t have to figure it all out. I love leaving the profound mysteries and interactions *alone*. Trust you’re well.
@@realmccoy124 you are wrong. There anathema of those who do not venerate the icons
@@realmccoy124They are absolutely mandatory. It is mind blowing you and others are trying to say otherwise.
@@andys3035 The word idols (elilim) means the "nothings" which the heathen substituted for the Lord God. The graven image (here meaning a carved wooden image), the standing image (meaning a sacred pillar), and the image of stone (that is, a sculptured stone idol), are the three forms of images under which adoration was paid, whether to the true God or to a false doily.
*The expression, to bow down unto (or towards) it, forbids worshipping before an image as well as worshipping an image* . Leviticus 26:1
οὐ ποιήσεις σεαυτῷ εἴδωλον, οὐδὲ παντὸς ὁμοίωμα, ὅσα ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ἄνω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τῇ γῇ κάτω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τοῖς ὕδασιν ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς. οὐ προσκυνήσεις αὐτοῖς, οὐδὲ μὴ λατρεύσεις αὐτοῖς· ἐγὼ γάρ εἰμι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου, Θεὸς ζηλωτής...
( ΕΞΟΔΟΣ 20:4-5)
And Orthodox don't bow down to them, nor worship them. So idk why you bothered with the weak Prot talking point. Imagine talking to a brother or sister and it be called worship.
@@taasch2505The Idolater John of Damascus dogmatically declared that all Christians bow down to these images and kiss it, and anyone who wouldn't is to be accursed, the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox holds to this doctrine that is codemned by God, the false doctrine of the 7th ecumenical council. Why use images for worship? Isn't Liturgy, Hymns and Preaching enough? Inventing and adding to what God had already established as proper worship is dangerous, I say this with Love.
What about exodus 25 and 26? Ark of the covenant had angels on it
@@taasch2505They don’t bow to them? You’ve never seen someone do a full prostration before the icon? Have you never gone to Paraklesis before?
@@taasch2505 I live in an Orthodox country. People bow to icons, relics, etc. There is also a lot of folk superstition around the icons that is stunning the first time you see it.
This stuff REALLY bothers me. It's like Christianized idolatry. I don't see it in the Bible or early church fathers either.
Pray to God to give you more wisdom and discernment to help with your journey. If it REALLY bothers you then you are doing a good job. That's the Ruah Hakodesh telling you this aint right
It's in both.
I'm learning about Christianity, and the icons are idols from an outsiders view
Icons are the one thing you will never convince me are not idols. The analogy of the soldier and the picture doesn't exactly transfer well. I don't cross myself and bow down to the picture. Also, destroying that picture wouldn't mean anything, however destroying an icon, that's basically blasphemy to the Orthodox. Bowing yourself to it, crossing yourself, and kissing it, sounds like worship to me. And by the way, loving your spouse or children more than you love God can also be a form of idolatry. Also, this idea that some Christians are saints and some are not, is not scriptural. According to the Bible, all true Christians are saints and there is no need to put some Christians above others. I guarantee that the Apostle Paul would write an epistle to the Orthodox Church regarding icons if he was here today.
We don’t worship it we’ve venerate the same way you have pictures of your dead relatives is exactly what the icons mean and Paul would definitely not write anything about icons because icons were thing during his time as well the first church, the one holy Catholic and apostolic church used icons. They just look much different today. But the form of iconography was in use. Everything you said here was false. I recommend you to really study history. and also the orthodox church is the most accurate church today and it’s the one that has never changed. It’s been the same since the first century.
And your claim about the Saints, remember you are a protestant from what I’m seeing here your Bibles have seven missing books so you’re missing seven entire books full of information so icons are not idolatry. Just because you think they are doesn’t make them that and I hope you have no photos of your family no photos of dead relatives no photos of yourself because the verse that you’re probably referring to the don’t make any of the grieving images if you take that, literally you can’t have photos of yourself either
Its not worshipping. Its just a thing of respect. „Veneration“ just means to show respect
Alos the early Church had Icons, they just painted it on the walls in the 3rd century
If you won't be convinced, you won't be convinced.
as a vet, us citizen. etc. I respect the flag as a symbol. as a christian there are no icons in my home, they are idols.
In Exodus God told the Israelites to fashion sculptures of the seraphim and cherubim over the ark of the covenant. In the Jewish temple, there were images and engravings. When the law referred to idols in scripture, it means the literal worship of the image or the engraving over God. It is not unlawful to use images within the worship, but it is unlawful to idolize the images and worship them in place of God.
@@Lycurgus47 they did not bow to or consult them as you do.
@@donhaddix3770 Bowing does not denote worship. Many cultures bow before their elders or when meeting a new person. As a vet, does saluting someone mean that you are worshipping them? If in combat, does kissing a picture of my wife mean that I am worshipping or idolizing the picture? The obvious answer is no. Worship is only reserved for the Triune God. We show respect to our family in Christ, we do not worship them.
Orthodox Christianity is the way Christian’s worshiped for 2000+ years, since the day of Pentecost.
@@Lycurgus47 in chinese culture how far you bow indicate authority.
as mayor I never bowed to chinese leaders. they bowed to me AND i DID NOT LIKE IT.
it is a power play.
their subordinates groveled. disgusting.
so stop injecting off topic issues.
bowing to an image makes the image something more.
Although Catholics also venerate religious images, iconography is most often associated with the Eastern or Orthodox Church, which teaches that the use of icons during prayer helps the worshiper know God, be united with the holy saints, and develop the fruit of the Spirit. When an Orthodox Christian enters his church, he lights a candle, makes the sign of the cross, and then kisses the icons of Christ, the Theotokos (Mary), and the saints. The church sanctuary will contain many other “Holy Icons,” as they’re called. Orthodox Christians are to have icons at home, too, and the place where the icons are kept is where family prayers are offered. Icons are seen as an illustration of the Incarnation of Christ, who left His spiritual abode to dwell in a material world. The devout also believe that an icon is a window into heaven, and their veneration passes straight to heaven, where it is received by the person depicted in the icon. Some claim that icons have facilitated miracles. John Calvin and the other Protestant Reformers were iconoclasts; that is, they demanded the removal of icons from churches and homes. According to the Reformers, the veneration of icons and other religious artifacts was idolatry, and they were right. Any kissing of, bowing down before, or praying toward an icon is certainly idolatrous. Members of the Orthodox Church insist that they are not worshiping the paint and wood, but they admit that they give veneration, adoration, and reverence to the saints and Mary depicted in the icons. They pray to men and women; they ascribe to the icons a spiritual power that it does not possess. This is unbiblical. There is nothing wrong with producing or enjoying religious art, per se. Viewing a painting of a biblical scene in an art gallery and admiring the artist’s technique cannot be considered idolatry. Having a picture of Jesus or of angels in one’s home may not be idolatry, either. Iconography can be studied as an art form, and icons can be viewed as fascinating examples of historical religious art. But using icons to aid one’s worship or viewing them as a “window to heaven” is definitely idolatry.
The Bible strictly forbids idolatry (Leviticus 26:1; Deuteronomy 5:9). God alone deserves to be bowed down to and worshiped. Icons are not intercessors before the throne of grace, and neither are the saints they represent. People in heaven do not have the power to hear our prayers or grant our requests. Only Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit can intercede for us before the Father (Romans 8:26-27, 34). We should stay as far away as we can from anything that could possibly lead to idolatry.
God sent poisonous serpents into the camp, and people began to die. This showed the people that they were the ones in sin, and they came to Moses to confess that sin and ask for God’s mercy. When Moses prayed for the people, God instructed him to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole so the people could be healed (Numbers 21:5-7). God was teaching the people something about faith. It is totally illogical to think that looking at a bronze image could heal anyone from snakebite, but that is exactly what God told them to do. It took an act of faith in God’s plan for anyone to be healed, and the serpent on the stick was a reminder of their sin which brought about their suffering. There is no connection between this serpent and the serpent which Satan spoke through in the Garden of Eden. This serpent was symbolic of the serpents God used to chastise the people for their unbelief.
they looked at the serpent, nothing more. they did not keep it.
the temple images were never worshiped.
@@donhaddix3770 so is kissing a picture of your family members and thinking about them during hard times considered worship in your mind? I say again - veneration does not equal worship or idolatry. Calvin and Luther were well meaning heretics against the church Christ formed. Jewish worship looked almost identical to how the Orthodox Church worships today. The same practices we’re implemented by the apostles (who were Jewish). In fact St. Luke himself was an iconographic and made icons of the Theotokos and of Christ. Your arguing against the beliefs of the church fathers and of Christs apostles. The church worshipped this way since Christ ascended into heaven. You worship the way that was established hundreds of years ago. The Orthodox Church worships the way Christs followers worshipped 2000 years ago. Check your ego at the door and put away your false assumptions.
One thing that is never mentioned in thiese videos is that in order to be an Orthodox Christian, saved and to be saved, it is necessary to venerate the icons. this is a clear addition to "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins". Making it necessary and indispensable for salvation. This is not the same when I kiss a picture of a loved one. Many don't have any issues with venerating. Showing love respecting reverence for others and for objects, the problem lies when you make it.
An necessity to be under saving grace and in communion with God.
Is it really necessary for salvation?
@@jaca2899According to the 7th ecumenical council it is, yes.
@@IAMFISH92 Where in the 7th Ecumenical Council does it say that venerating icons is necessary for salvation?
@@jaca2899 In the Acts of the council.
@@IAMFISH92 Would you care to find the quote for me please? I'm having trouble finding where in the text it says that venerating icons is necessary for salvation
Apostle Paul says we are the written epistles seen by all men. Their are no physical description of Jesus or mary or any character in the whole canon. The imagination of man is evil from his youth.
In old testament, Art was considered a Holy thing. Tabernacle and throughout Kings art is mentioned
@@joshuatrott193 of course God permitted it until his promise of his only son.
@@frederickanderson1860 where is that command?
@@joshuatrott193 sure like jesus command call no man on earth father or teacher yet your man made traditions try to use any lame excuse to make pope's as holy fathers or most revered pastor. Archbishop or cardinal that is of man made traditions as a dogma.
@@frederickanderson1860 now your devolving to a different issue. Let's stick with one thing which is your comment on video and art. You've stated your opinion without backing it up. Where is the command about art? Where does it say depictions of Christ are evil?
No, dead saints do no hear your prayers. They are not God. They are not omnipresent. They could never hear more than one saints prayers at a time, they are not god.