I think an important background for the birth of techno-orientalism was the rapid development of the electronics industry in Japan in the 80s and 90s. At the time, Japan was the undisputed leader in consumer electronics, completely dominating the western market. Near-future science fiction, including but not limited to cyberpunk, often imagines the most advanced electronics as coming from Japan. However, cyberpunk also contains a deep-rooted late-capitalism dystopian picture, so Japan, which represents advanced technology, becomes a faceless and emotionless incarnation of evil corporations at the same time.
Businessmen were reading the art of war and the book of five rings to try and decode them. The concern at the time was that Japan was going to overtake us both culturally and economically.
agreed you literally have a GenZ kid trying to explain something in media with having ZERO historical social context. Even Better they reference Ed SAID who was actually talking about the Middle East.
Well of course Ghost in the Shell 1995 was through the eyes of a Japanese protagonist, it was made in Japan. One of the reasons you kind of missed as to why there are so many Asian themes within modern day cyberpunk is because so much Cyberpunk and futuristic media was coming out of Japan. Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Appleseed, Cyber City Oedo 808, Psycho Pass even Robotech, Gundam and many more. All of these shows have inspired and had a large influence on modern Cyberpunk design/aesthetics throughout the western world.
This is such an ignorant take, the Japanese examples you listed are either products of the 90s, or straight up not cyberpunk, not every sci-fi is cyberpunk! Make no mistake, cyberpunk is a very 60s/70s product that was already popular by the 80s, Japanese creators did not even start to follow this trend until a decade later. William Gibson and Ridley Scott were already putting Asian elements inside their works in the 80s. Lots of people in this comment section are nerds getting triggered and acting defensively, using Japan's technological dominance in the late 20th century as a counter argument as if it's nothing but a source for innocent sci-fi inspiration. What's incredibly ironic is that they're missing the entire point. Japan's economic re-emergence, as well as eventual technological lead in the second half of 20th century, itself fueled hostility and fear of losing dominance in America. The infamous murder of Chinese American Vincent Chin in 1982 was done by American autoworkers who mistook him for a Japanese, and the murderers served no jail time, basically let go scot-free, with little scrutity from the government or mainstream civil rights groups. The US felt so threatened by Japan, similarly to how they do now with China, they coaxed Japan into signing the Plaza Accord, devaluating their currency, which eventually contributed to Japan's economic downfall. The Japanese were always presented as monotonous, corporate beings and American companies are bound to be bought up by Japanese corporations in most Hollywood movies in late 20th Century. Japanese buyout in RoboCop 3, Americans converting to Japanese-esque cultures in Demolition Man and Blade Runner were just a few famous examples still popular today. But of course, this is all easily forgotten by today's Americans, all historical traces in mass media of that time are now generally dismissed by today's viewers as facination of a quirky 80s Japan. Few think too deeply into what that facination truly was: fear. In the America-dominated West's collective psyche, Asian countries have always been either dismissed as sources of exoticism or treated as sources of threats, but never respected as worthy peers like between America and Europe. This incredibly salty comment section, where people point to the obvious but refuse to be moved by an inch further to think with historical context, is a great manifestation of this mentality.
@@teasea546 pretty ironic to accuse others of being salty when you’re pretty salty yourself on the opposite side of the coin. Your points make sense and is a solid list of information contrary to the point the commenter made but you’re definitely as pissed as the others your harping on. You can make points without going off on someone and accusing others of being salty. I do appreciate the use of ignorant instead of stupid, however. And if they are ignorant then you should give them the benefit of the doubt for not knowing as much as you seem to know on the subject. People are more willing to listen to what you have to say when you’re not being overbearing or possibly being perceived as hateful in your reply. Even upon trying to research the origins of “cyberpunk” there are tons of conflicting articles, some claiming it originated in the Gibson in the 50s, some say the 60s during New Wave science fiction emergence, some say Delaney in the 40s, Phillip K Dick is mentioned which inspired the 82 Bladerunner movie. Akira which came out in Japan that same year. Then you see Robocop, ghost in the shell and the matrix, among others. The cyberpunk game was made in the late 80s that allowed it to become more mainstream, according to one article. So it seems like it has a pretty deep, rich, and differing history that makes it hard to pinpoint the origins. I think most people associate cyberpunk with Japan simply because that’s what they first saw, like ghost in the shell was the first cyberpunk ish thing I ever saw so I always mentally associate the two. And honestly just haven’t ever needed to or wanted to delve into its history any deeper than that. I’m sure there were deeper implications as to why for instance the noodle guy in bladerunner was so overly an Asian stereotype and sure, Japan and the US had a pretty dicey relationship even in the 80s post ww2. Japan is a huge competitor for the electronic market (another reason why people probably associate Japan with cyberpunk and technological progress themes) and a budding car market… I mean we could go really deep into simply the psychology of being against the “other” and tribalism in general. But Japan is known to be a very racist country, not necessarily in a hateful way but they don’t like giving citizenship to anyone with non Japanese blood, it’s hard for non Japanese people to get jobs that aren’t for small amount of time contracts according to a lot of different articles written on the subject, I mean there are a lot of articles about Japan’s racism as a country (not individuals im speaking just on the country’s stance on including other cultures and peoples in their country) and maybe xenophobia is a more correct word to use here. And other Asian countries like China are similar. They want to keep things homogenous and that’s part of why japans numbers are in decline as far as birth rates go, according to articles I’ve read and studies on the subject. But anyways, I think the reason so many people associate Japan with cyberpunk is due to that being their first exposure to the genre thru Japanese content, the fact that Japan is one of the technological powerhouses of the world when it comes to innovation in that sector, and people simply have a fascination with the beauty and, like you said, the exoticism of Asian women (I am pretty sure the top searched term on p*rnhub last year was Japanese, so.. make of that what you will), and personally I have a fascination with the Japanese culture - a mix of old and new, that, as an American, I can’t imagine. The idea of being able to drive by historical buildings that are almost a thousand years old, while stopping off to pick up dinner or something, seeing women walk around in full kimono dress, just experiencing a culture that’s been around for thousands of years. meanwhile America is over here not even 300 years old yet acting like we run the place. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with appreciation but there is a line you cross when it goes into obsession or idealization or sexualization or whatever. Now I’m just rambling. Thanks for the info you provided it definitely sent me on a rabbit hole of learning 👍
My theory it's because Japan was seen as ahead of everyone in the early eighties, Neuromancer got written at the same time, and that set the aesthetic.
You're 100 percent right. In the 80s we had this fear Japan was going to buy out the US and take over. All the dystopia fictions, cyberpunk especially, had this imagined idea what that would be.
Yes, I was waiting for Neuromancer since it’s often credited with kicking off the cyberpunk genre. Molly is near emotionless and also has sex with Case pretty much out of nowhere
@@thac0twenty377 instead the USA destroyed japans economy lol, and they sold everything to china instead to counter japan and the soviets, and now they are trying the same to china but china already knows
I think Nathan pays for his "willful ignorance" in Ex-Machina since he never sees Kyoko as a threat. But over large parts of the movie the audience is treated to his (and Caleb's) view of seeing her as not-human. I think i would have been a really powerful move to see Kyoko actually speaking to Ava. It's hinted that she can but it's a blink-and-you-will-miss-it scene. I'm so conflicted over this movie which I like very much.
I feel like if they spelled this out in Ex Machina, it probably would’ve ruined the whole part of the movie. Teach someone to fish and they will never be hungry.
@@MaiaCVideos I guess more representation helps with painting a more complete picture. It seems that the perks of the dominant culture is exporting culture. China and Japan were given the option to adopt English and the writing system around the 19th - 20th century but refused. America was given the option to adopt, French, Chinese, and Spanish but most Americans saw it as pointless. Europe and the world were suppose to adopt French during 17th -19th century but most people didn't care for it.
With this movie there are 2 things. Ex machina was a Greek theater story type (?) in which there was chaos going on in the play, and then through some sort of machine a Greek god actor came from “above” and fixed everything. So something interesting to think about, since the white men were…the ones that lost let’s say. The other thing is that I watched an interpretation where she (I don’t remember her name) takes the mistreatment towards Kyoko as a sign that both men were not really good people. Just because Kyoko was unable to speak and expected to be an “adult toy”, she was not being considered as someone that should be saved. So she abandons the other guy after Kyoko takes her revenge. I’m not an expert in analysis, but these 2 things are interesting to look at
@@notleavingmyroom Agree. Just a note, though: the full name of the theatre trope is "Deus ex machina". These days it's usually used to refer to an unsatisfying outside-of-context resolution to a story.
Very good video. Im Japanese Mexican, and have been fortunate to have had the opportunity to have lived in several different countries, each with a different culture, for 10 of my 21 years, so I might have a perspective on this subject that not many might have. This video has given me many thoughts, too much for a UA-cam comment so I might make a video about this topic, but some things I’ve noticed personally over the years are: -The futuristic dystopian scenes are not truly fictional, but simple exaggerations of real places, which I believe is likely to become reality in many places -The atmosphere of rain, fog, darkness is not from the physical location in the setting, but the subconscious mental atmosphere and memories people make visiting or being in cities. -Asians being cold or robot-like is in general true depending on the country or region, I experience it myself despite being half Japanese living in Japan. This feeling is likely more easily felt if you are from a culture where people are more open, touchy, loud, and laid-back. Example: cashiers in Japan just do the job and the customer leaves, in Mexico the cashiers and customers do small talk. Put a Japanese customer in Mexico and a Mexican customer in Japan, one will feel that the cashier talks too much, the other will feel that the cashier is a robot. Sorry for long comment and bad English, I’ve been living in Japan a few years now and only get to use it with friends.
I was going to comment a similar thing. While I do think that even tho the video essay is overall "right" in the fact that many portrayals of this kind are plainly ignorant, i think it is missing to explore the fact that there actually are cultural differences and culture clashes, and to what extent some of these representations are actually "fair use" (obviously exaggerated but it's art after all) and that Japanese culture in particular (and other East Asian cultures too) do have pressure to conform, more distinct feelings of distance and ways of acceptable ranges of communication, stuff like tatemae and honne, etc. And also where work culture is pretty crazy. I mean American work/corporate culture is also kinda crazy but Japan/SK/China for example all seem to have comparatively much bigger pressure to join the corporate culture and way less room for deviation, Japan and SK have their zaibatsu-keiretsu/chaebol, China has these massive state-owned companies and the party. For context, I'm half Spanish and half Japanese and even though i'm probably like 90% culturally spanish bc i've only been to japan 2/3 times and barely know the language, I still have a Japanese mom, and I do watch a lot of stuff from half Japanese ppl/hafus and from Spanish people who go to Japan and they do talk about their perceptions and their difficulty in connecting or feeling accepted in Japanese friendgroups etc. I will say that regarding women you were probably way more in the right than in anything, this submissive East Asian woman thing probably requires a lot more nuance and less fetishization bc i'll tell you, my mom's far from this stereotype LOL. and just in general, exploring actual Asian culture and Asian characters the nuances are much more well understood. Some big hitters like Crazy Rich Asians or Everything Everywhere All At Once , or stuff like Studio Ghibli IMO capture more realness than western portrayals
Eh that's only Japanese or to an extent Korean. If you go down South to China and Vietnam, people are more open and friendly. I know Vietnam is in Southeast Asia, but we're culturally influenced by the Sino sphere. The only explanation is that people in colder climate tends to be more reserved. I notice this trait from lots of my friends from Northern Europe like Sweden or Norway. Generally, they aren't shy or anything. It's just they only talk when they need to. I have to bring this up because it's very unfair to bring up Japan or Korea to represent Asia. I know this because I'm Vietnamese. I know my own culture and my own neighbor culture. We're a diverse group of people valuing different things.
@@cloudynguyen6527 Always remember that when Americans talk about Asian, they actually mean either Chinese, Korean or Japanese. I've heard that in England, Asian means Indian, or South Asian in general. So basically when westerners talk about Asian, SE Asian and Middle-Eastern aren't included in the conversation.
Well, since you mentioned the breakfast club. They might have confused it with the Long Duc Dong asian character in another John Hughes movie 'Sixteen Candles' also starring Ringwald and Hall as kids.
Lots of people in this comment section are nerds getting triggered and acting defensively, using Japan's technological dominance in the late 20th century as a counter argument as if it's nothing but a source for innocent sci-fi inspiration. What's incredibly ironic is that they're missing the entire point. Japan's economic re-emergence, as well as eventual technological lead in the second half of 20th century, itself fueled hostility and fear of losing dominance in America. The infamous murder of Chinese American Vincent Chin in 1982 was done by American autoworkers who mistook him for a Japanese, and the murderers served no jail time, basically let go scot-free, with little scrutity from the government or mainstream civil rights groups. The US felt so threatened by Japan, similarly to how they do now with China, they coaxed Japan into signing the Plaza Accord, devaluating their currency, which eventually contributed to Japan's economic downfall. The Japanese were always presented as monotonous, corporate beings and American companies are bound to be bought up by Japanese corporations in most Hollywood movies in late 20th Century. Japanese buyout in RoboCop 3, Americans converting to Japanese-esque cultures in Demolition Man and Blade Runner were just a few famous examples still popular today. But of course, this is all easily forgotten by today's Americans, all historical traces in mass media of that time are now generally dismissed by today's viewers as facination of a quirky 80s Japan. Few think too deeply into what that facination truly was: fear. In the America-dominated West's collective psyche, Asian countries have always been either dismissed as sources of exoticism or treated as sources of threats, but never respected as worthy peers like between America and Europe. This incredibly salty comment section, where people point to the obvious but refuse to be moved by an inch further to think with historical context, is a great manifestation of this mentality. Edit: fixed typos..
Honestly, cyberpunk's very idea was based around Hong Kong during the 1970s and 80s. Of course it would look Asian. Just like steampunk looks like Victorian London.
It’s not about the aesthetics its about how asians are portrayed in steam punk you’ll still have good white people and are portrayed as people in well known steam punk settings (kinda sad their isn’t that many cool movie’s about it) but in hollywood bs topia version of cyberpunk asian robots and white man hero it’s dull it’s boring and it reeks of fetishized bs atleast with popular games people are people
@@augustuslunasol10thapostle kinda true, video games have a more global community and Japan leads the industry in many sections while the Chinese make up the largest market. Making "Asia bad" in games will do more harm than good.
I don't think you can take write this off as a product of orientalism or racism. Consider the massive influence of Ghost in the Shell on cyberpunk. It's a Japanese animated film, which features some quite reserved and at least externally emotionless characters in a Hong Kong inspired city where despite the large number of people they are still socially isolated. Cities are "Asian coded" both because Asia has some of the most modern cities in the world and because Asian cyberpunk served as such an inspiration. Tokyo or Shanghai look quite a lot like how we imagine cyberpunk, from the sprawling cities to the rampant commercialism, but it's because these are the kinds of cities that inspired it first. And when one of the core critiques of cyberpunk is of an isolating late capitalist society, why wouldn't a society with large entrenched family corporations, with extremely long working hours, where life revolves around work with little time or energy left for socialisation, with stricter social protocols for what interaction exists, become such a foundational inspiration for it? I think above all though it's impossible to discuss the Asian aspects of cyberpunk without discussing the genuine Asian origins of them. There's Ghost in the Shell, Akira, lesser known ones like Metropolis or Alita, as well as non-cyberpunk sci-fi or science fantasy like Evangelion which have been incredibly influential at least within niche genres.
Not just GITS but also Akira, Ergo proxy and many more lost to all the people in 2023, plenty of influential Cyberpunk series came from Japan. This whole video is extremely ignorant of this.
In Cyberpunk 2020 you could adventure in two other exotic locations: The EEC and the Soviet Union. The first is the other rising star next to Japan, with its own economic block of relative prosperity. The other was a mix of the party/state, organised crime and a dominant petrochemical corp. Their japanese corp Arasaka was founded by a japanese nationalist and traditionalist who wanted to rule a world frozen in his ideals. We don't get to adventure much in the EEC or Japan itself but Arasaka definitely comes off as a monolith of loyal goons. Written cyberpunk had a fascination with the economic prosperity of Japan during the 80's when the country was looking like it could overtake the USA.
I can't speak for Pondsmith's writing for 2020, but in CDPR's adaptation in 2077 this is not seen as Japanese encroachment onto western values, but rather as the terrifying idea of a WW2 Japanese war criminal collecting enough power and influence to mold the world as he sees fit. Speaking more to the original RPG's writing: I should note that Arasaka's main rival is an American corp called Millitech who are hardly better. In fact no, they just aren't better, both of them are terrible. The CEO of Arasaka is the Emperor of Japan and the CEO of Millitech is the President of the NUSA (depending on the time period of the setting) and both participate in corporate warfare the kills millions of people.
The look of the original Blade Runner film and the entire live action Ghost in the Shell film are based on images and stories from Japanese Manga and Anime. These are visions of a future dystopia created by Japanese in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Please add Akira to the list. Are these works somehow Techno-Orientalist to you? I think you can fairly claim the Ghost in the Shell remake to be unoriginal. But what about the source material's sexy cyborg major? Who created her character?
I agree and want to add that in Asian (non-animated) productions, like Chinese or Indian cinema, the white people are either background dancer or bad guys. In japanese movies, they are often non-existent and given the very restrictive rules Japan has for foreigners who want to immigrate into that country... I would argue that "the West" (whoever that will be) is judged by a double standard. Things like the Katy Perry kimono situation are even more hilarious to me. It was only mentioned briefly. But to me, culture is accessible to everyone. If you tell a white person not to wear a sombrero for fun or a kimono when going through Kyoto... you are incentivising white people to keep to themselves and exclude people from other backgrounds, so you are not considered a sexist or racist. I think that asian-colored cities are more a depiction of the future because it shows a lot of change, while it still feels grounded in reality.
The aesthetic of Neuromancer was invented by a guy trying to imagine what the future would look like. He was living in a society that was being influenced by Japanese and Korean culture to a degree that had not previously happened. It's only natural that the version of the future he imagines comes to look like a more complete blending of those things. The villains in that book aren't megacorps either, they are western aristocrats/oligarchs. The protagonist in Snow Crash is half japanese half polish. And that book is usually considered the crystallization of the genre. Cloud Atlas is literally a deconstructionist effort, and the fact that the cyberpunk section of that book aligns with some of the tropes of the genre is the point. Literally every character in that book is a different race at some point in the story. Calling it racist in this way is wild. Honestly this whole video feels misguided. Handwaving very explicitly Japanese and Korean cultural influences as "asian" or "techno-orientalism" seems almost racist. And arguing that megacorps or predatory capitalism is somehow representative of asian culture is just downright bizarre.
I think that is fair, I think its tough because cyberpunk really does seem to have a bit of a tie in with asia, and i dont think these movies are "bad" for having these sort of characters but i do feel that when many of them were made they were made in this lense. I think the entire genre has kind of accepted japan and usually "tokyo" in cyberpunk is a common place for a story to take place in, or at least heavily inspired by tokyo atmosphere. I do feel the video was a little bit off, but i think it still had some good points regarding how we initially "see" techno- ori- ent alism . I am not sure if all of her points land about it causing racism and it shows asia as cruel etc, but i can imagine how the early stories that was part of it, i can imagine many genres have not so great backgrounds and history that were integral to the creation of the genre. I mean look at HP lovecraft, one of the most talked about horror writers, many people love his stories and the influences on so many different stories is so interesting to see. But he was a very afraid person and also kinda racist, sometimes that kinda bleeds over into his work, i mean like literally one of the outer gods is called "Shub-n_wo rd" and look also at what inspired him to create this outer god. But his impact on horror and writing is hard not to see. I feel its kinda like that, there isnt a "we need to not enjoy this thing anymore" its more of a "this is the influence, or this is a possible influence" and use it as a stepping stone to write stories.
One thing that cyberpunk could stand to focus on more, is the blurring of lines between Corporations and Government through technology. Much of what we are experiencing today is the result of the two structures combining, and making life convenient in many ways, and straight-up damaging in all other ways. The cultural blending of different countries is also a minor point in Ghost in the Shell, but isn’t fully explored.
Stray does not make Asian people into robots, it uses Asian cultural features to humanise the robots in the game. And it is set in a dystopian future with East Asian characteristics, but it explains that the blame is wholly at the feet of a mass monopoly that has taken hold over the entire world and population.
@@zhen86 Russia is Asian too, but most people, when they say "Asian," are referring to _East_ Asia, China, Japan, Korea, and to some degree South East Asia. India is generally considered "South Asia."
I don't think the crew of Big Hero 6 thought all the way through on the cultural perspectives in the original film, with no character showed distinctive psychological traits interpreted that are common in Japan or Asia, but the subsequent educational mini series really hit my mind and truly showed people from west are finally understanding and seeing the culture in a human perspective. In the first episode, the protagonist is a cranky, overdeterminant, neurotic elderly Japanese woman with aquaphobia and arthritis, the literal elderly version of "iron muscle", the show used 10 minuites to briefly unraveled her traumas and showed how she digest loss of loved ones differently, and finally accepted it. It is not as profound as Everything Everywhere All at Once and Turning Red which is from perspectives people experienced both or originated from, but showed great patience in recognizing the unignorable behavioral differences derived from the same universal values. Even as Chinese raised in China under influence of modern culture I had to ask my grandparents a lot of questions to truly understand my culture and human behaviors sometimes, so I say it is a promising sign for a 10-min show, but still far away.
If we talk about Cyberpunk the movie with the most influence on me is Ghost in the Shell from 1995. I don’t know if it was produced for western audience, but I doubt it. Everything you describe is in that movie, except the western protagonist. Is it techno-orientalism as well? And when not, where exactly is the difference. Is it the intention? Is it the group that created it? You are giving simple answers for complex questions, likewise the generalism in the portrait of east Asia in your Cyberpunk examples.
I think the point is that with the western protagonists in the films. Often they excluded any humane Asian representation or full characters. It's the treatment of Asian symbolism without any substance. Ghost in the Shell didn't politicize orientalism or race, it dealt with a future run by corporate tyranny. It's messaging was clear and I think that added to why it was so influencial.
@@BenCaesar what constitutes "substance" in this context? if the casting of the main character is what makes the difference, then substance is irrelevant. the vast majority of cyberpunk films avoid politicizing race. they almost universally feature a large mix of cultures dominated by international corporations.
@@rumfordc right, good question👏🏾. You’re right they feature a wide range of cultures. But How are these cultures represented? How much substance do these characters have?. I mean Substance in this context from a writing standpoint, are they fully fleshed out or one dimensional characters? A marker of substance is how humane and dynamic is a character. Imo decisions on main, side and supporting characters, how cultures are represented - are political decisions. Cyberpunk doesn’t transcend politics because it includes different races. If it paints races in a diminutive way then it’s not fairly representing that race. Again imo 🙏🏾
@@BenCaesar they are all represented as serfs a hyper commodified environment. all of the cultures are presented as commodified, they are all "diminutive" including the main character's culture. in a movie there is barely enough time to flesh out the main character let alone multiple characters. when it's a series, lots of characters get fleshed out because there is more time. these are consequences of time, not genre.
@@rumfordc true, series can flesh out a lot more. But I think we can compare the parallel between Tom Cruises the Last Samurai and Akira Kurasawa 7 Samurai. Both set in Japan both have Asian casts. But when you put a western protagonist as a lead how are the other cultures treated? Hollywood has a history of a white savior storyline, and as a ‘minority’ I’m critical of that it’s just not a nice experience. And while Cyberpunk is a perfect genre to transcend that history I feel it also sometimes falls victim to it. But that’s my take. And I believe that’s what this video was analyzing.
I think the Ghost In The Shell animated films, OVAs and series are some of my favorite science fiction over all. There's so much implied, unspoken and also expositioned and topical discussion in questioning identity and the "self". I think this might be relevant not only to future concerns about identity, but, it also explores identity from an East-Asian perspective of social norms prizing cultural assimilation and one-ness with society over originality and self-expression. We see this IRL with the school uniform and work uniform culture of uniformity, and sameness. Who are you if everyone looks and acts the same? Are you even an individual?
man i hate this comment so fuckin much. it completely encapsulates what the video was fuckin talking about, are you that unself-aware? white people are so creative and asians are just good because they practice so much? that's pretty much what you're saying. especially from korea, look at their art and artists, going back thousands of years. check which countries rank high on the innovation index, a list that is completely composed by white people. this video explicitly discussed white people portraying asians as robots and this person just does that very same shit. you must have just watched the thing and you so easily slipped into that. bit scary how people work sometimes.
In most sci-fi stories in japan, technology advancement is seen as dangerous. People also fear the booming economics might have serious consequence. Like Godzilla is the symbol of destructive nuclear weapon. Akira depicts neo-tokyo as a city full of crimes, riots and corrupted politician. In the original GITS comic, the author predicted criminals will commit crimes with advanced technology in the future.
Yeah there was a time when Japan was thought to take over the world with Japanese people traveling the world, buying priceless art on a whim, and snatching up real estate. I mean look at how 80s/90s media made the Japanese katana so mythically strong like in Highlander. Or corporations in Die Hard, Blade Runner... Naming of "cool" things with Japanese sounding names continues to this very day.
Imho, this needs more elaboration on how old orientalism and cyberpunk are connected through more than looking similar. Especially with mentioning works like Ex Machina (the robot looking asian is part of her builder's characterization) and Ghost in the Shell (Major Makoto is white in both versions because she inherits a body that is not her own, this is not specific to the Hollywood remake). And because cyberpunk is nowhere more popular than in Japan, which can hardly be accused of othering East Asia (though media in Japan do sometimes other China specifically).
I feel like the debate sometimes veers into attributing negative intention - which is dangerous. Filmmakers and artists, like all of us, simultaneously add to and *inhabit* the visual language of their times and culture. The fact that someone engages in a visual language that may dehumanize a certain group, if we sit down and interpret it from a sociological perspective, does not equate that they have *intention to dehumanize* - they are engaging and participating in the visual language of a certain genre, using specific tropes and artifacts as shorthand for specific cultural notions that they want the audience to absorb. The fact that those tropes, by themselves, reveal something uncomfortable about our own perceptions and inherent biases is... Well, it's possibly too big of a burden for the individual artist to shoulder, unless they are setting out to do *just that* - you can't make up your own visual language, and expect audiences to have the emotional response that you were trying to conjure. That's not how visual language works. It inherently tends to bypass the critical filter - it's why it is such a useful tool.
Sorry to say that but... Find a colorfull thing, and someone will call it rascist. And then find something with less color and someone will call it rascist.
I think it's a bit superficial. Far away lands were NEVER real places inhabited by real humans. If you read East Asian stories and legends about the lands in the West there are always monsters and gods and treasures... If you go today in a small town in Asia and ask about their image of Europe you will probably get a Swiss postcard village or a fake German castle from the 19th century or the Eiffel tower. Same for the US: New York, LA, maybe Texas cowboys and Miami. There is a trend on social media to present an idealized versions of village life, those villages are never as they look on screen. We, the humans, always put mythical places over the horizon.
On the flip side, films or tv shows made by Asians for the Asian markets don’t play nice with the western cultures either. Observe Kung-fu movies and Japanese animes that involved foreign (white) characters. They are usually one-dimensional and only serve as plot devices. Being an Asian person myself I cringed when I saw that happen.
Cultures portraying themselves as multifaceted and the others as simplistic is a tale as old as time - but as the west has gotten considerably more multicultural than east Asia has we’ve had that reckoning sooner
Only the top dog gets to be criticized-we Asian were also racist as hell compare to most western countries. My friends like to make those very gamerish offensive black jokes, not ironically
@@liamferreira9928 yeah it seems like people tend to ignore the fact that America more than many other countries is very diverse and multi-cultural. All cultures portray themselves as multi-faceted and the other as simplistic, yet the US and Hollywood tends to bear the brunt of criticism for a lack of multi-culturalism, and other countries don't. When US doesn't tell stories about other countries they're heavily criticised. But other countries are not expected to have that responsibility. Also why people pretend as if there isn't enormous xenophobia in asian countries, especially Japan.
I've generally felt that in the cyberpunk world, when the primary language and culture is Asian, it is not due to a devious plot, but rather they are the larger population. Like an inevitable outcome.
That’s part of the orientalism. Cyberpunk has its roots in the “Yellow Scare” wherein Asia’s vast populations will eventually overrun the West economically that has its roots as far back as 1850.
I cant believe I went through the video without it mentioning alita battle angel. it potrays a manga-inspirated cyberpunk with an asian female *main character* that is amazingly writted and quite faithful to the source.
Technically Alita is half German later revealed to not even be really human being cut from a Tumor from her dying mother. In this aspect she is similar to guts the black swordsman
The media we love most is the media we must be most closely critical of. It's the willful refusal to accept or even see this point that is one of the most deeply frustrating habits on the internet. As it goes, if one critically examines a beloved piece of media, the knee-jerk reaction is way too often "why do you hate x". *grumble* So it goes.
I think you are overthinking it a lot. People don't fear asia talking over the world, people don't fear other cultures. Instead they get inspired by them. William Gibson's Necromancer, a pillar for the cyberpunk genre starts in Japan but it's pretty clear the whole world is messed up by hypercapitalism. On one point I can agreed. I think there is a certain fetishisation of asian people in western media (men as well especially korean 🤔). Other tropes like the russian rough guy also exist, I wonder why for asian people it's more sexual 🤔
I disagree with fetish crap...people throw that word around it's actually dumb...as someone who spends a lot of time in different communities, it simply means they are interested and have a bad way of expressing that they do.
I always thought it was due to cyberpunk being inspired by 80s Japan, I didn't even notice that it was portrayed as bad only as cool an aesthetic, quite interesting
yeah it is, the whole genre is japanese and modeled after japanese technology (ghost in the shell, akira etc). it is important to talk about how hollywood films can end up having some racist tropes in the cyberpunk genre but lets not forget that some of these same tropes were created by japanese artists themselves as exaggerations of japanese culture socially
@@Kill3rrockstar I tend to forget that sometimes. Even though I definitely took history classes, Japan in the present has little resemblance of what it was due to all the current entertainment
It is, this video is just pushing intersectionality and other stuff that are half right but still ends up being racism somehow. Bottom line: Cyberpunk is heavily influenced by Japan, and Tokyo with its neon lights and kanji everywhere along with the huge mega corps that rose there are at the core of cyberpunk. Same for Hong Kong. Same for Seoul/Korea with the aesthetic alleyways, chaebol corps, and aesthetic hangeul writing. Cyberpunk is at its core East Asian, futurism, and a result of a marriage of East/West aesthetics in a hyper globalised and capitalistic future. So sick of racism being pushed into everything, cyberpunk is amazing
I think it’s important to separate the genre as it is and contrast it more clearly with implementations. Especially when there are cynical reproductions created to cash in on known great works. (I’m looking at you, Ghost In The Shell.) The cyberpunk genre looks how it does I feel because it very much has developed from Eastern and Western artists inspiring each other. You gloss over this in a few different segments but miss on what the genre as it stands is actually about, which is corporate authoritarianism. You hit it on it’s head in regards to the original Blade Runner. There absolutely was a concern from Americans losing more of their livelihoods to Eastern countries as it already happened at that point to the rust belt. The part that I feel you neglected to further the larger argument of your essay is that this is an emotional reflection to show the actual dystopia heralded by corporate control. The dehumanization of cyberpunk comes from corporate control. What it looks like is down to aesthetics and emotional tone. The characters lose their humanity through technological augmentation, mass surveillance, and economic imprisonment. It really isn’t about who they are, or where they are from. That is of course unless where they are from is the controlling corporate class.
I was waiting for this video to talk about late stage capitalism within the Cyberpunk genre, where corporations are essentially more powerful and influential than governments, where mega corps only care about the profit motive rather than the wellbeing of society which is why most citizens in these settings live in slums and have to participate in "survival economies."
The whole point of the Love Death Robots episode you showed was to criticize the loss of culture that foreign industry brought those countries, how the country, exemplified by the girl, was taken advantage of and modified to fit the foreigners tastes, and that over time the technology allowed them to reclaim their culture, land and themselves. If you didn’t look a little deeper than surface level for Love Death Robots, it calls into question your entire point.
Same could be said about her critisisms of Ex Machina. Kyoko's character is meant to be the way she is to explore the perverted characteristics of Nathan and how his sexual proclivities for Asian women have bled directly into his work. I mean, nobody watches that movie thinking Nathan is the good guy. His character is meant to portray this aspect of racism, not promote it, or even lackadaisically endure it.. I do agree with some points made, but in general, I think a lot of this video is just the ramblings of a white-hating suburban communist zoomer.
Nah man, i'm half chinese half malaysian and i wouldn't get triggered simply by this notion. Steampunk dystopian trope usually takes place in Victorian England, Dieselpunk dystopian trope usually takes place in Germany, and Cyberpunk dystopian trope usually takes place in HongKong / Japan. What is the difference? They are all using iconic countries respective to their timeline. That's all to it.
Exactly, I got this dumbass video shoved down my throat today in a communications class I'm taking right now, and I honestly couldn't agree with it less. What's there to be triggered about sci-fi movies and shows using an Asian aesthetic in its presentation of the future? It's just a reflection of reality, as everyone knows that China and Japan are at the forefront of major tech development, with South Korea and Japan having some of the most modern looking cities in the world. If anything, having Asian aesthetics in a depiction of a vastly technologically advanced future is a celebration of Asian culture more than anything. Whether conscious or not, it's basically the West's way of saying "Your country is cool because it's got a bunch of cool tech." Complaining about the prominence of oriental culture in western sci-fi is the same line of bullshit as the idea behind "cultural appropriation". Just another case of insecure minorities wanting to blame everything on the whites. Also, it's incredibly obvious that the person who made this video didn't even take the time to properly consume the works cited here. If the idiot who made this actually watched Ex Machina, they would know that the reason Oscar Isaac has naked Asian chicks as his sex slaves in that film, was because he was the VILLAIN. That whole movie has themes of male-to-female domestic abuse and is arguably even a little woke. Context and nuance are just non-existent to braindead SJWs these days.
Damn, this was an incredible video essay. As a massive fan of cyberpunk I didn't even realize those kinds of motivations might've been part of what led to its creation as a genre. I know when William Gibson was first writing Neuromancer (the first piece of cyberpunk media along with Blade Runner) his inspiration for creating the world came mostly from otaku/magazine culture at the time and he would basically make these massive piles in his living room of reference material and flip through them to get inspiration for his stories. So, I'm willing to bet that there was some weird orientalism going on (at least in the American art magazines he flipped through) that might've been unintentionally passed through his work into the broader culture. Kinda sad since he's literally my favourite author of all time and when you see him speak in interviews you know he's doing all of this speculative fiction from a place of pure wonder at the increasingly techno-capitalistic world unfolding around him, but obviously no one's perfect and it dates the cyberpunk genre to a particular time when these kinds of allusions would've made "intuitive" sense to american audiences (meaning they were fed a bunch of mccarthyist/xenophobic lies about asian culture to the point where those bigoted views were internalized). There's so many themes about the failures of capitalism that become so crushingly real in all the best cyberpunk work that I've come to appreciate throughout the years, but honestly I can understand why some people would find it problematic. I'm actually hoping to write a cyberpunk-inspired book sometime within the near future, and seeing this video has shown me that there is a clear direction the genre can take to avoid orientalism. Thank you
William Gibson strongly objected to the Vietnam War which was, on many levels, a racist debacle that dehumanized Asian people as a whole. He simply had an interest on how strong and widely spread were the information technologies in Japan, particularly in Akiba (which was at the time worldwide famous for its chip and electronic markets in the streets), as well as the architecture in places such as Kowloon's Walled City (which was the extreme example of anarchocapitalism on Earth). There are no "honest and goods" in Gibson's works, even less to according to race. Also, it's nice how the entire thing crumbles if you think of Ghost in the Shell, Akira or another number of Asian cyberpunk pieces, also literary ones. I guess they will just state they "internalized hatred" or something.
I never thought of Asians as "soulless". When I saw Japan aesthetic in the genre I come to think of them as so intelligent and cultured that it makes Westerners seem more like the unfeeling barbarians from the Conan series, somehow more beast than man. That's how I see Westerners sometimes in cyberpunk, as someone who is more primitive that the cultured society that is now the norm in the genre.
Your essentialization of nuanced and specific cultural aesthetics (and behaviors) comes off as racialist, as you tend to value one culture as “superior” over the other.
A couple of things also in the mix... The decline of the West and the rise of Japan & China. Blade Runner played on the fears of the decline of the US, as did Looper. The idea that our culture would be colonized just as we colonized other cultures is often present in the subtext. Slightly hinted at by talking about the Ghost In The Shell anime is the long shadow Japanese media casts as we emulate a lot of the stuff we see in Japanese techno-futures. As someone currently learning Japanese, I can attest to the power of exploring such a vibrant media landscape and the impulse to emulate it.
I feel like this is a critique of specifically American Cyberpunk, but ignores that cyberpunk largely started in Japan with manga and movies such as Gundam, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, the list goes on. Not to mention the most recent Cyberpunk 2077 anime series was made by Japanese studio Trigger. These late 80's early 90's anime are revered as critically acclaimed and put Japan on the map as a media giant. I guess I would have liked to hear more about how that played a role in the Cyberpunk genre instead of just viewing it from a purely American lens.
Yea this video kinda sucks lol it never mentions that this genre actually did originate in east asia and was adapted in the west by people who were inspired by it
Citing that one episode of Love DEath & Robots as Techno-Orientalist is interesting, since it takes place during the colonization of Hong Kong, depicts the atomizing and destructive influences of western colonial industry and imperialism, and centres on two Asian protagonists that eventually specifically coopt the western industry to build a means to resist against western male objectification of asian women.
I feel like a large aspect of your observations are the actual differences in cultures. Asian cultures are more collectivist, and that, to westerners, seems less humane. Taken to the extreme in a technologically advanced society, some aspects of these fictional settings make sense. I think your observations are from a western point of view (regardless of what culture you identify the most strongly with).
I'm assuming that was meant as an insult. Not only is it not true, it's also a really poor insult. Higher education has severely degraded in quality over the past decade in the west, while increasing in price, and it's gotten to the point where unless you attend some of the top 1% schools, you're better off just doing something else. But if college education results in these kind of uninsightful, disingenuous, downright hateful pieces of writing, then I suggest you skip it entirely, because this essay is worse than useless. It is actually harmful to anyone looking to learn anything about this topic. It's extremely selective with the information it presents and it's going to great lengths to mask its interpretations as facts. You're better off just digesting the relevant content yourself and then coming up with your own conclusions. However basic those may be, they're probably going to be more realistic than whatever is presented in this essay. It's like, soviet propaganda had more nuance than this. And I should know, I live in a former soviet state.
@@hustlecrowe9440 Anyone who has been to college would figure out most of the Cyberpunk genre was written and animated in Tokyo before making this stupid video.
@@hustlecrowe9440Going to college and taking a class study on "Critical Media Studies" doesn't make you smart. All it does is turn you into something thin-skinned, easily offended, woke SJW moron.
also the setting of ghost in the shell is based on Hong Kong, so we could make the argument that both films are culturally appropriating Chinese culture without representation of Chinese people, lmao
This may be a partial explainer for several other entertainment industry attitudes that are widely held. Many Americans believe that Japanese video games are either quaint and dated, or overly complex and inaccessible. During the late 2000s this attitude was so widespread that Japanese devs heard about it and attempted to shift their products to no longer resemble the most vocal complaints. I suspect this attitude may come from a similar psychology to the anxieties discussed in the video.
I didn't watch the essay, most people like the whole cyberpunk aesthetic because it takes the best parts of 'Asian' aesthetics and adds cool tech to it. That's it, "Wow this looks cool, I would love to eat noodles in the rain while wearing a trenchcoat in neon-lit Hong Kong" is all that goes through someone's head.
Every aspect described in this essay can be easily attributed to works of fiction about western civilization. There are numerous books, tv shows, films were tech in the hands of westerners leads to a 'soulless" dystopian outcome. So it is quite picky to directly associate the choice of a setting to the so-called "FEAR OF ASIA". For most of the pieces of art stated in this video it is more of a stylistic choice rather than a solid trend of "Techno-orientalism". Obviously, for westerners the eastern Asian style in blend with cybertech looks exotic, mysterious and would attract readers. This seems like a more plausible reason, especially for the people who lived in the pre-globalized world.
From a mainland Asian perspective, a cyberpunk capitalist critique of Japan is not racist in my eyes, especially as Japan has never been colonized and has historically been a brutal imperialist force who has whitewashed and erased their own atrocities on the Asian continent. You’re looking at this from a liberal western perspective while you are ignoring the eastern anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, progressive perspective
As someone who is Japanese, has a deep interest in American pop culture from the 80s and 90s, I have concerns about the way the term "Asian" is being used in this video. It appears to be used interchangeably to refer to both "culture from Asia" and "Asian people”. It's important to note that these “techno-orientalism” in American movies are mostly, if not all, based on an interpretation of Japanese culture from that time, and Japanese people in Japan generally don't find this offensive. Similarly, Japanese movies that depict American culture often offer our own interpretation based on our perspective. I think it’s natural for people to find foreign cultures mysterious and exotic, as we can only gain an impression of them from a distance. I’m sorry if you find such impressions lead to negative stereotypes that result in racial discrimination against Asian-American people but its worth noting that Japanese people often enjoy and proud seeing foreigners take an interest in our culture and traditions. In fact, Japanese absolutely love seeing foreign tourists dressing up in traditional Japanese attire like kimonos or portraying iconic figures like samurais and ninjas, Especially American people consider how much it has changed from war time. Friends influence friends.
I'm constantly at once fascinated and frustrated by exoticism of other cultures and its influence on how that culture actually sees itself. I'm someone of mixed descent, one of my ethnic backgrounds being southern China, and I live in the north east US. My perception of the China that I came from is a constant struggle of trying to update my view through hard research and figuring out what I actually like about US perceptions of China. Even then, sometimes what we think of as orientalism, because it's a perceptual aspect that does not match the original location, might not actually be ignorance, but instead could be immigrants from that area changing and adapting their culture to life in the new area. Sorry if that's unclear or dense, but that's what I constantly find myself thinking about.
Nothing is going to replace actually living there. Least of which China. Place is too damn big and everyone's localized experiences here are equally valid interpretations of China, despite the extreme variations. Most US writers are essentialist with China because Korea and Japan are enablers of that essentialism, which stems from cultural essentialism and 19th century European nationalism centered around such essentialist mythmaking. I personally have given up on US writers for the most part. Cheers from Hangzhou.
also don't forget all the whitewashing the west has done. complete lies, false narratives and fabricated stories just to create hatred towards china it's insane
I wouldn't say it's an "unwarranted fear" of Asia. Just that when Cyberpunk became a thing all tech in America basically came out of Japan or Taiwan, so they thought that would be the norm in the future. Then the Japan economy crashed and isn't as ubiquitous as before. But Cyberpunk, just like regular Punk, is now old and has a set look, and that includes the 80's and 90's weebery in it. It wouldn't look nostalgic and cyberpunk without random Kanji and Japanese products everywhere. That's a hangover from decades ago, not a "fear from Hollywood"
While you make a solid point, but I feel like some examples are more of a mixed bag in terms of fitting the trope: - Blade Runner's world-building is based on techno-orientalism, but the main antagonists are white men who exploit those changes for personal gain. In fact, both movies' villains are male Caucasians playing god independently from the Japanese industry that took over LA. - Ex-Machina uses the trope but also exploits it. Kyoko is a mute robot but it's clear that Nathan is aware of the stereotype behind Asian characters and the decision to make her this way shows HIM as the bad guy in this while Kyoko is simply a victim of circumstances. - Stray is the one example I think doesn't fit because the way they blend in the techno-orientalism is shown in a more positive light. The robots use oriental fashion and culture but they're also surprisingly warm, welcoming and see this culture as an integral part of the human world rather than making it a threat. If anything, the techno-orientalism in this game is helping to give the environment color and life rather than sucking it away from it.
Cyberpunk came out of a fear for the rising corporate greed and concerning lack of individualism and identity in people. Bladerunner uses East Asian technological aesthetics because at the time of making the movie, 70s and 80s, East Asian was known for its unbelievably advanced technology for its time. Japan took it in stride with Akira and Ghost In The Shell and truly made it their genre, every movie and piece of media that has come out since then has been inspired by the previous iterations of Cyberpunk. Bladerunner 2049, Cyberpunk2077, ex machine, love death robots, stray are all making the exact same point that Cyberpunk was originally created to make, there is no sense of orientalism because they are literally building off of an inspiration on the East Asian Cyberpunk material. If anything I see more East Asian appreciation than orientalism in any of these movies.
The funny thing about the og ghost in the shell movie is that there's ton of Chinese motifs and language used in big companies in it. You'll occasionally see an anxiety over future Chinese dominance in Japanese media while US m dia gas anxiety over Japan.
More than "out of the fears of", early Cyberpunk has its roots in classic dystopic novels and noir as a style. I mean, Neuromancer entire opening sequence is a dude being wasted before being recruited for a job that might change his life or just get him dead. That's like noir 101. The only difference is that the lady doesn't have a femme fatale cute dres but shades attached to her face and razor-nails installed on her and that the topic is scifi
I mean, it's enough to move to New Rose Hotel to see a much larger focus on the corporate influence over society, compared to Neuromancer being more focused on the life of the people outside the system and how much the world is generally fucked at various levels but isn't really that different from the past.
east asia didn't have "unbelievable advanced technology" in the 70s and 80s and nobody thought so either. wth??you're just wrong. japan to this day is still pretty backwards in terms of technology, they still use fax machines. korea and china got advanced pretty recently, korea probably seems a lot more advanced because it's so much smaller but it was pretty ghetto in the 80s.
Japan is one of the main producers of cyberpunk and is incredibly influential on its themes and aesthetic. You don’t even mention this. Generally it isn’t asia, it’s Japan. Japan has an interesting relationship to technology and is really THE society closest to embodying cyberpunk.
What are you even talking about? Name five iconic cyberpunk series originated in Japan from the 20th century, which was the hay days of cyberpunk, other than Ghost in the Shell. Cyberpunk is not general science fiction. Cyberpunk is a distincly American genre distilled from the 80s fear of America losing dominance in the world to Japan. Think the death of Vincent Chin, who was a Chinese American killed by American autoworkers because they thought he was Japanese. The works that came from Japan were already well into the 21st century after the genre's peak, where they're just following the inspirations left by American creators.
@@teasea546 1-Akira 2-Tetsuo: The Iron man 3-Neo Tokyo 4- Genocyber 5- Ad Police. IT did originate in america particularly with Philip K Dick who i read constantly but its heavily influenced by japan, i didnt say it originated in japan you fucking dumb fuck. Fuck yourself ;)
@@teasea546 I don't even need to name 5, I'll name ONE high influential Japanese cyberpunk piece of media. Akira, you moron. If you're too young to understand why that movie was so culturally relevant (or as old as me but want to play contrairian because "RACISM BAD!!! I HAVE NO OTHER ARGUMENTS!!!!"), then go watch some shit 10 hour youtube essay on it. Akira practically defined the cyberpunk movement. You also have Lain. but without Akira, the modern Cyberpunk foundation would look wildly different. tl;dr shut the fuck up, and stay out of topics that you don't know.
@@teasea546 Ergo proxy, Ghost in the shell, Pyscho-Pass, Akira, Texhnolyze, Cyber city Odeo 808, Neo Tokyo, No guns life, Angel cop, Battle angel, Megazone 23, Bubblegum crisis, Midnight eye Gokuu, Appleseed, Cybernetic guardian, Genocyber and etc. those are all anime and not even getting into the shit ton of cyberpunk Videogames and Manga.
It’s because Japan is the closest thing we currently have to cyberpunk. People working LONG hours with falling birthrates, cybercafes with cubicle sleeping quarters, coffin apartments, everyone is lonely and depressed, and everything is high tech.
@@davidjacobs8558 The phrase is "Japan has been stuck in the 2000s since the 1980s." They were initially very technologically advanced in the 1980s, but other countries began to catch up in the 2000s, and now they are considered to be behind in some ways.
the same can be said about latin/hispanic, Hattian, in the apocalyptic take on the post cyberpunk influence. its an observation of persistence of immigration in the world as a whole. its still a very well put essay.
In addition to Big Hero 6, Matrix: Reloaded is another movie I would commend for not resorting to techno-Orientalism. Ghost, Seraph, and the Keymaker were all prominent Asian characters while the soulless robotic characters were the Agent Smiths. One could make the case that the Oracle was a Magical Negro, however.
Thank you for making this video, I really liked how this video put many of my thoughts into words for me. I'm Chinese-Japanese and I've always felt uncomfortable seeing non-Asian media depict orientalism and techno-orientalism for the very reasons you describe in this video. In many ways, it certainly felt dehumanizing and I think some of the ideas presented in orientalism and techno-orientalism reflects and shapes the perceptions of some Westerners when they talk about Asia and Asian people, at least from my own experience living in different Asian countries.
You have a liteal Year Hare Affair pfp, a Chinese "anime" that is borderline state propaganda, and is dedicated to radicalizing Chinese youths towards the interests of the state, that being ultranationalist militarism against opponents of the Chinese nation covered by a veneer of "moe", and portraying other countries, even allies of china as racist stereotypes based on Chinese racial slurs and twisting (or leaving out) historical facts to promote Chinese "supremacy". My point being, even if the accusations are indeed 100% correct, you have no real ground to stand on to act like it's purely a western thing when it's clear your words are overshadowed by sheer hypocrisy.
@@ADHDisYippeeeeeeeeee fantastic point. These people love to cry they are being discriminated against, and yet themselves take part in the same discriminatory behaviour against others. Their problem with racism is how it affects them personally / sectionally; not that it's just bad in and of itself
it isn't eye-opening, it's lazy analysis that doesn't stack up, as others have pointed out in comments here. You should unsee it, because it's a lazy attempt to shoehorn everything into a specific interpretation (all Western culture is racist), when in fact reality is far more complex
I quote from another comment in here -- "I do find it funny that the moment you say the asian characters are sexualized and then say that they exist to serve the white protagonist, you show a love death and robots clip that's literally of a fox spirit (who is being sexually harrassed by the white villains of the story) which mythology describes as attractive, and in that same short from love death and robots the main characters are both asian while the bad guys are white colonialists??? Not the best example lmao"
@@seadkolasinac7220 very true, im half chinese half malaysian and i find her points to be exaggerated. She is probably overseas asian. We don't care much about these things.
6:20 Why do you say 'exists entirely to serve the domestic & sexual desires of a white guy' when she was serving Oscar Isaac? (Oscar Isaac is Guatemalan)
This is so interesting to watch as someone who lives in China and has visited HK many times. I've also been to Seoul, Shanghai, Taipei etc, and the architecture and density of these cities do make you feel like you're in a cyberpunk movie BUT, without the creepiness and dystopian feel that western directors ad to their movies.
The future is linked with dystopia. Western writers add dystopia elements to futuristic stories that aren't cyberpunk, too. What the woman in the video is doing is attempting to find racism where there is little to none. The real reason there aren't many East Asians in Blade Runner is because America is primarily white, not East Asian. There are real issues in Hollywood and the world, yet people like her instead try to find ways to victimize themselves for little reason.
8:40 Didn't 2017 Ghost in the Shell have cyberpunk themes through the eyes of an actual Japanese protagonist because an Asian boy was implanted into a robot body during a childhood accident? Like if you want to say a Caucasian actress was portraying an Asian character that would be far more accurate than ignoring the storyline of the film which would be ironic since you use Asian people being ignored as a critique of the style..
I often think of Back to the Future Part 2 where Marty’s boss is Japanese and fires him. There’s also the comment in part 1 where doc disparages parts made in Japan and Marty comments that all the best stuff is made in Japan in the 80s.
Looks like the whole video is a woke-ivied version of what Cyberpunk is. The cyberpunk genre is something embraced and pushed forward by Asians (mostly Japan) themselves. So dumping in racism into the mix is a little silly. The whole point of its depiction is showcasing the result of when indiscriminate augmentation of humans with machines/robotic/Bionics and AI takes place. It shows what happens when there's literally no stopping corporate greed that gains wealth by flooding the world with artificial alternatives while over consuming and polluting everything that's natural. Visually its mostly depicted by dense amounts of neon in overly crowded areas as its aesthetic comes (that we see in modern times) comes from the Tokyo(Shibuya) of the 80s and 90s along with the brilliant Anime pieces like Ghost in the Shell that made their way into the west during the same time. Either which originate from East Asian itself and are not Western depictions of Asians at all. While in earlier depictions, East Asians were shown in particular stereotype , this exact case could have been reversed with the depiction of the west by Asians as well. This stemmed from a pretty simple reason of either culture not knowing much about the other. Regardless, it's just a minuscule percentage of what the Cyberpunk genre actually is.
What the hell are you talking about? Cyberpunk as a genre started in the US in the 80s with Neuromancer and Bladerunner. It has always been a genre that was critical of Japanese corporate assimilation of the US. Hell, just look at Cyberpunk 2077 and why Saburo Arasaka does the things he does.
i always took the message as how a lot of asian culture has started incorporating into american culture and that these movies were showing the result of our cultures merging together. in blade runner, even though there were signs in japanese on the buildings some of the buildings were still prominent with architecture you would see in america. i feel it's also important to point out how, tyrell, the man at the company responsible for the replicants was portrayed by an american actor, so it all still felt like "american capitalism" to me but that america just had much more influence from the rest of the world. thanks for making this video though as it's nice to re-analyze it from a different perspective
it would be interesting to compare what you've described here with the original cyberpunk tropes in earlier Japanese films and animation - for example, which of the original visual signifiers are repeated in the later Western films, which are discarded, and which are adapted? also, would be great to find some interviews with the directors and set designers of both the originals and the homages and ask what the creators thought their intent was.
I definitely associate Japanese manga and the language itself with Cyberpunk aesthetics. The first images that come to mind are neon hiragana letters and electronics advertisements that you can find all throughout Shibuya and Shinjuku.
Okay but the ghost in the shell live action mc IS an asian mc, they are an asian person who died and was put into the shell (robot form) that looked white, they are an asian character, but there is a theme of disconnect from your body to how you look via the shell, it's only like, one of the largest themes of the series.
I want to hear your thoughts on how the Cyberpunk game portrays this subject. Lucyna from Cyberpunk Edgerunners is Japanese. Goro Takemura is a character I respect a lot. He had a rough life and Arasaka saved him from it. Gave him access to education and a decent life. So he is forever grateful to the corps for it. He can be seen as a complete opposite of Johnny Silverhand's personality, which hated the exploitation of the corporations and his personality can be described as pure chaos. Both Goro and Johnny make completely decent arguments for their own views. In Cyberpunk 2077 I never saw any of the characters as a stereotype. Each one of them is a piece on this story moving forward with their own beliefs and actions. What are your thoughts on it?
@@localmilfchaser6938 I'm not sure about that. Samurai are born in that class. Goro is more of a child soldier actually. He is a high ranking corporate, so he is polite as expected from his role. I would say that Saburo Arasaka is definitely a stereotype of the ancient Shogun archetype. But I'm not so sure about Goro. He feels more to me like intended to be a comparison with Johnny Silverhand. The theme of the game, as mentioned by Dexter De'shawn, is "Quiet life or blaze of glory?" . Do we choose to live a short meaningful life, or a long one, beneath those that are larger than you? Johnny Silverhand took the blaze of glory option. Goro Takemura picked the "quiet life". Both of the questlines are related to this subject as well.
@@localmilfchaser6938 If you talk to Takamura more, it's actually pretty clear that the Arasaka specifically use a type of historical revisionism and fake samurai culture to instill false senses of duty, loyalty, sacrifice, etc. to their soldier class, as they are primarily sourced from the destitute underclass in Japan. It's not "a western imagined samurai", it's a fake samurai culture being used to undermine any chance of rebellion.
You can't really talk about Cyberpunk 2077 without talking about Cyberpunk 20XX (the tabletop RPG by Pondsmith), and at that point it becomes clear that the setting is packed full of awful stereotypes. Saburo Arasaka acting purely out of a desire for revenge that Imperial Japan was defeated is really some stupid American fantasy. And any revival of bushido or samurai spirit that does not align with Imperial Japan is one devoid of any recognition of the realities of Japan in the post-war period, so this supposed "fake samurai culture" that he whipped up just seems awfully forced. How is Pondsmith even going to explain the 1955 System and its proponents in the LDP? He doesn't, he just ignores reality and supplants his own because he was likely ignorant of Japan's reality. CP2077 tries to stay away from these things but it underpins the verisimilitude of the setting. Start questioning why Arasaka even exists and the wallpaper starts peeling.
This argument is confused, conflating imperialism with multiculturalism and racism. Orientalism is a real thing, she does a poor job explaining how including these aspects may be damaging, as opposed mere representation.
Cyberpunk, or "Techno-Orientalism" as you call it, has been one of my favorite genres for a while. It has never once made me view East Asian culture in a negative light. I can't speak for others, but all it's done has given me a deeper respect, interest, and appreciation for the real people and cultures that these fictional stories take influence from. I don't think I would have ever spent the time and money to travel to Asia or start learning Japanese if fiction like Blade Runner, Neuromancer, or Cyberpunk 2020 didn't exist.
There are two types of orientalism. The first is when a westerner depicts the orient as a place that isn't. The second is when a westerner takes fiction as "accurate" representation, then makes equally bad assumptions on that fiction.
@@GameFuMaster problem is that western stereotype of orientalism is generally true so this whole video is pointless. "Westerners accurately described Asia and that is bad!!!"
Man, it's not that deep. Cyberpunk is Japanese-influenced because of Bladerunner, which came out in the 80s, a time when Japan was in economic ascendancy and it was feared that they might displace America at the top of the economic food chain and buy up everything. That turned out to be a bubble, but it influenced near future scifi of the time. Since Bladerunner had an "LA bought out by Japan" visual aesthetic, blending the architecture of the US with that of Tokyo, most "cyberpunk" works just copy from that template, simple as that, just as "steampunk" is often Jules Verne's Victorian London, even though there is nothing inherently "London" about steam tech. Also, Ghost in the Shell came around in the early 2000s, and crafted a hugely influential high tech Tokyo, that like Blade Runner, inspired a ton of copycats. And as for "servant robots," or whatever, there is some influence to the myths of "geisha culture" involved, but for the most part, "roboticised humanioids" come in all shapes and sizes, crafted by all sorts of cultures, there is nothing specifically "Asian" about them. There's nothing "sinister" about "techno Orientalism" or non-Asian artists using Asian themes in their work. It's silly to portray it in minor chords. Asian creators do exactly the same thing, crafting works around alternate past/future European settings, or completely fictional "Europe-esc" settings, and they are no more accurate or "culturally sensitive" than the western works you cited. There is nothing wrong with one culture being inspired by aspects that interest them of another. We should cherish this as part of the way human cultures develop and spread, not demonizing it.
Good video! I think one thing not touched on is the fact that people love and would want to live in these worlds despite the fact that the stories surrounding them should push you away from wanting to live there. Side note, I really enjoy cultures adopting aspects of other cultures, it's what makes life so great!
A few comments. Firstly, using Ghost in the Shell as an example of "Orientalism" is disingenuous, it's a Japanese series, if there are any issues with Orientalism in it then the Japanese did it themselves. The 2017 movies was still based on the original and did little to change to change the core themes. Secondly I don't agree with this idea that it portrays Asian cultures as lacking humanity. It portrays humanity as lacking humanity. The idea is that humanity has gone so far into technology that parts of the flesh and mind are being cast aside for the new tech. That's the basic theme, it has nothing to do with Asia. Where the Asian influence comes in is the aesthetic. The thing you have to take into account is that cyberpunk as a genre is not new, it's born out of the electronics boom in the 80s and 90s which itself was heavily based in Japan and Hong Kong. The neon aesthetic specifically comes from Hong Kong and Akihabara (the "Electric city") in Tokyo. This is why there is so much Asian influence, because people in the 70s-90s thought the future of technology would be coming from Asia, not the west. Also, after the core ideas of Cyberpunk were laid out by western authors, Asian authors and creatives continued on the genre and brought it to the form it is today. Series like Ghost in the Shell, Alita Battle Angel, Bubblegum Crisis, and Akira further refined the formula and increased the popularity of the genre, all adding the influence of their (Japanese) creators. Like you're argument rests on the idea that cyberpunk is a western view of a future Asian culture, but it's as much an Asian genre as it is western. I've also never really seen this idea of Asian companies being more dangerous than western ones, do you have an example? Like Blade Runner's core theme is the issue around humanity and replicants, which are not created by an Asian country. Dread is about the corruption of justice. Altered Carbon features an Asian protagonist, and is mostly centered on questioning what life truly is and whether extending it cheapens it. None of these have any focus on the Asian invasion, for lack of a better term.
what sucks about this idea is that due to cultural diffrences asia can look cold and unfealing due to the high pressure many east asian countries face to be the top of everything giving us sometimes an emotionless view to outsiders and even within our borders.
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod I did read it and you don't make any sense. What do you mean by pressure to be on top of everything? It's nonsense. English is obviously not your first language
Honestly as someone from the "Techno-Orientalism" heritage, I don't find most of the Western perspective to be of demeaning, dehumanizing, or whatever. Most of it is respectful. Some of it is stereotypical, but I've also seen many stereotypes that the West portrays in the "Orient". No, I don't find the word Orient demeaning as it's a Latin word and its counterpart is "Occidental" which means West. I certainly don't speak for the confused "born in America" Asians or Eurasians of the West who rely too much on Western Woke culture and believe they're White or White adjacent, but I can say with all honesty that from Eurasia to the Far East, as a people we are very confident about our long history and we know who we are. It's hilarious to me, when some random Western Whites and others speak for me and try to say what I should be offended by whatever they deem "racist". That's a very cultural imperialistic view and I think their views are complete BS.
the dehumanization of Asian people in dystopian setting is due to over population and over competition. its a trait of hyper capitalism not Asian orientation.
I'd lean more towards "appreciation". The whole sub-genre was created because of the rapid rise of Japan and their electronic industry. Japan in the 80s was seen as the country to eclipse the U.S. due to their rapid technological advancement and urban development, highlighted in film by the dense urban skytowers and overpopulation more common in Asian countries compared to the West. "Asia" more specifically India and China have always been seen as sleeping giants due to their populations being massive pools of Labor - A notable tool for industrialist and corporate greed . Napoleon even made remarks about China as a dormant power in a famous quote. I would not come to the conclusion that cyberpunk is a result of "fearing Asia" but more so a reality of the times when the genre was created. A rising Japan with the potential to culturally become globally dominant in the same way American culture dominated post ww2 and into the late 90s.
Excellent work! Also, yeah I never realized the connection to Asian-owned companies being antagonistic as a stand-in for anti-asian sentiment, or the representation of asian peoples as simultaneously sexualized and robotic, feared and subservient.
Great video essay, I'd recently delved into cyberpunk and was confused about the hardcore east Asian influences, so this really cleared up a lot of questions as well as pointed out some source material I could go to, thank you so much for this very informative video essay
@@MaiaCVideos just being critical here Ur video ending felt so small minded and biased in a way U have to understand the heart of humanity is never evil it is always good the way it is going is always towards improving and progressing Bias and evilness exist in some institutions and people heart with time thjngs shall end even within some people As a south asian I can say this to u East asian representation in movies are a must if u made a Hollywood these days also the kpop anime video game industry is booming across the world if anybody who can claim their culture architecture social values is wrongly depicted if they r even depicted like once in a few 1000 films its south asian but I dot complain about that small mindedness with time this too shall pass I think softpower perception of society changes with time 300 years ago everyone wanted to go to south asia establishing all European trading companies and settling in coastal colonies ,now everyone wants to get out of south asia to rest of world So with time that too shall change backward Everyone always feels it is us who is suppressed only us face discrimination to this level but u have to realize u have atleast a voice to represent in each film game etc while the pop culture produced in south asia is not even allowed to influence in rest of world bcs of nationalism and institutional frame work but with time their heart will also melt which we r seeing recently It is not a common society problem it's an institutional problem
Another reason for Cyberpunk having Japanese influences is that Japan developed it's own cyberpunk films and media around the same time it ramped up in America with things like Akira, so while some of it is definitely orientalism, there's also a lot of creative cross pollination. The Matrix for example was heavily influenced by Ghost in the Shell, Akira, and obviously Kung-Fu movies.
What about all those Japanese manga and anime that fetishize white characters? Naruto and Sailor Moon both have blue eyes and blonde hair like a stereotypical caricature of a European despite their Japanese names. Goku's hair literally turns blonde when he goes Super Saiyan. Also, Lolita fashion takes traditional Victorian fashion and turns it into something simultaneously sexy and infantile (kawaii). Additionally, what about all the Japanese anime/pron that has girls dressed in serafuku, which is inspired by European/American navy sailor uniforms? Finally, the B-stylers and Kpop groups who braid their hair, tan their skin, and basically dress in black face while rapping, singing RnB, and breakdancing. It seems to me that fetishization and objectification goes both ways, whether occidental or oriental.
Brotha you know it I watch a lot of anime, especially those set in japan. And i have been wondering why so characters are blonde with blue eyes just basically north European looking. But with Japanese names back in the day I used to think anime was created by white people, when I found it it was from Japan I was surprised, why they never make characters with oriental features. They simp hard for white people especially blond white women with blue eyes, so much anime with an MC blonde hair blue eyes looking white woman. But any time white people do animation and have east Asian characters with oriental features they get mad, and call them ugly they did it with a game mirrors edge.
Don't forget, their fantasy isekai animes are mostly germanic inspired. But seeing this comment, at this point. I dont know what even is fetishization and objectification. It sounds like everything is now.
I always had the impression that its an exaggerated vision of an already technologically advanced culture, done mostly by that culture and then adapted by the west because its so fun and cool. Alita battle angel, ghost in the shell, even the mech-suit genre is all part of the easts own sci-fy genre. And if the west is inspired enough by the success and makes a so-so adaptation or derivative work Is it really about Hollywood fearing Asia, or loving it? I could definitely be wrong but I always adored the cyberpunk genre and still do, and never got a bad, hateful, or fearful of Asia vibe. I always saw it as envy if anything, you could barely get away with doing stories that cool and visually stunning about the west. Americas cities are often just rows of concrete fast food restaurants, not a great setting for beautiful neon colors and clean glossy buildings. And our culture is so mixed as to not have as distinct of an aesthetic. The tech is usually saving the world somehow, or if its bad then its closer to morally gray. Big hero six, while a superhero film is clearly inspired by eastern takes on sci-fy and heroes, is it fearful? Also another thing to point out is that sometimes it can actually be a really good literally tool to take something from another culture when making something for your own culture to emphasize the difference between now and then in a futuristic work. It makes it seem more unfamiliar while also being a realistic representation of how cultures are shared over time! It takes advantage of feeling culture shock, which in itself isnt a bad thing. All we can hope for is that the cultural images and ideas used will be accurate and respectful! You have some really good points but I think that generally speaking the artistic decisions seen in the so-so, western, asian inspired science fiction films are done purely because they think that Asia is really cool, as Hollywood continues to be inspired by the success of anime and manga I hope they try to do better lol
I noticed a lot of issues with the various analogies and takes in the video, and like your mention of Big Hero 6 - my immediate reaction was not "oh the Asians took over/displaced/white flight from San Fran", but that "oh is this a world where the Japanese Internments and displacement never took place, allowing the Chinese and Japanese districts to continue flourishing until they became the natural aesthetic for the city?"
Major Motoko Kusanagi of the original Ghost in the Shell film isn't necessarily Japanese, despite her name. She knows almost nothing of her past for sure, since she is a near-total cyborg and the technology exists to hack and fabricate memories. Her skin, hair and eyes are entirely synthetic. She therefore has no idea what race or background she really has. The Major's alienation because of her mistrust of her own memories plays a major role in the plot of the film. The Major actually has synthetic blue eyes in the film, and a (synthetic) appearance which, like many anime characters, can be interpreted ambiguously as either Japanese or European. She says that she can't remember her real name, except that it isn't Motoko Kusanagi. The film and show don't answer whether or not she was originally Japanese, and she has no idea.
I think an important background for the birth of techno-orientalism was the rapid development of the electronics industry in Japan in the 80s and 90s. At the time, Japan was the undisputed leader in consumer electronics, completely dominating the western market. Near-future science fiction, including but not limited to cyberpunk, often imagines the most advanced electronics as coming from Japan. However, cyberpunk also contains a deep-rooted late-capitalism dystopian picture, so Japan, which represents advanced technology, becomes a faceless and emotionless incarnation of evil corporations at the same time.
and some writers and directors took inspiration from tokyo and how futuristic it looked as yell as hong kong and shanghai.
Businessmen were reading the art of war and the book of five rings to try and decode them. The concern at the time was that Japan was going to overtake us both culturally and economically.
I came here to say the exact same thing!!
Most people who try to cancel cyberpunk as a genre weren't even alive during the 80's to understand this!!
We also have south east Asian version of that trope.
Look at Tai krung City from indivisible and you will understand what I mean.
agreed you literally have a GenZ kid trying to explain something in media with having ZERO historical social context. Even Better they reference Ed SAID who was actually talking about the Middle East.
Well of course Ghost in the Shell 1995 was through the eyes of a Japanese protagonist, it was made in Japan. One of the reasons you kind of missed as to why there are so many Asian themes within modern day cyberpunk is because so much Cyberpunk and futuristic media was coming out of Japan. Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Appleseed, Cyber City Oedo 808, Psycho Pass even Robotech, Gundam and many more. All of these shows have inspired and had a large influence on modern Cyberpunk design/aesthetics throughout the western world.
I wouldnt consider Robotech and Gundam to be cyberpunk lol, even if that stuff migrating to the US did influence cyberpunk creators.
@@Warsie Yeah I agree they are not Cyberpunk but those shows have had an influence on Western science -fiction.
Then the remake should have as well. You’re looking at it from the surface. Go deeper. What does cyber-punk look like to non-Asian people?
This is such an ignorant take, the Japanese examples you listed are either products of the 90s, or straight up not cyberpunk, not every sci-fi is cyberpunk! Make no mistake, cyberpunk is a very 60s/70s product that was already popular by the 80s, Japanese creators did not even start to follow this trend until a decade later. William Gibson and Ridley Scott were already putting Asian elements inside their works in the 80s.
Lots of people in this comment section are nerds getting triggered and acting defensively, using Japan's technological dominance in the late 20th century as a counter argument as if it's nothing but a source for innocent sci-fi inspiration.
What's incredibly ironic is that they're missing the entire point. Japan's economic re-emergence, as well as eventual technological lead in the second half of 20th century, itself fueled hostility and fear of losing dominance in America. The infamous murder of Chinese American Vincent Chin in 1982 was done by American autoworkers who mistook him for a Japanese, and the murderers served no jail time, basically let go scot-free, with little scrutity from the government or mainstream civil rights groups. The US felt so threatened by Japan, similarly to how they do now with China, they coaxed Japan into signing the Plaza Accord, devaluating their currency, which eventually contributed to Japan's economic downfall. The Japanese were always presented as monotonous, corporate beings and American companies are bound to be bought up by Japanese corporations in most Hollywood movies in late 20th Century. Japanese buyout in RoboCop 3, Americans converting to Japanese-esque cultures in Demolition Man and Blade Runner were just a few famous examples still popular today.
But of course, this is all easily forgotten by today's Americans, all historical traces in mass media of that time are now generally dismissed by today's viewers as facination of a quirky 80s Japan. Few think too deeply into what that facination truly was: fear. In the America-dominated West's collective psyche, Asian countries have always been either dismissed as sources of exoticism or treated as sources of threats, but never respected as worthy peers like between America and Europe.
This incredibly salty comment section, where people point to the obvious but refuse to be moved by an inch further to think with historical context, is a great manifestation of this mentality.
@@teasea546 pretty ironic to accuse others of being salty when you’re pretty salty yourself on the opposite side of the coin. Your points make sense and is a solid list of information contrary to the point the commenter made but you’re definitely as pissed as the others your harping on. You can make points without going off on someone and accusing others of being salty. I do appreciate the use of ignorant instead of stupid, however. And if they are ignorant then you should give them the benefit of the doubt for not knowing as much as you seem to know on the subject. People are more willing to listen to what you have to say when you’re not being overbearing or possibly being perceived as hateful in your reply.
Even upon trying to research the origins of “cyberpunk” there are tons of conflicting articles, some claiming it originated in the Gibson in the 50s, some say the 60s during New Wave science fiction emergence, some say Delaney in the 40s, Phillip K Dick is mentioned which inspired the 82 Bladerunner movie. Akira which came out in Japan that same year. Then you see Robocop, ghost in the shell and the matrix, among others. The cyberpunk game was made in the late 80s that allowed it to become more mainstream, according to one article. So it seems like it has a pretty deep, rich, and differing history that makes it hard to pinpoint the origins.
I think most people associate cyberpunk with Japan simply because that’s what they first saw, like ghost in the shell was the first cyberpunk ish thing I ever saw so I always mentally associate the two. And honestly just haven’t ever needed to or wanted to delve into its history any deeper than that. I’m sure there were deeper implications as to why for instance the noodle guy in bladerunner was so overly an Asian stereotype and sure, Japan and the US had a pretty dicey relationship even in the 80s post ww2. Japan is a huge competitor for the electronic market (another reason why people probably associate Japan with cyberpunk and technological progress themes) and a budding car market… I mean we could go really deep into simply the psychology of being against the “other” and tribalism in general. But Japan is known to be a very racist country, not necessarily in a hateful way but they don’t like giving citizenship to anyone with non Japanese blood, it’s hard for non Japanese people to get jobs that aren’t for small amount of time contracts according to a lot of different articles written on the subject, I mean there are a lot of articles about Japan’s racism as a country (not individuals im speaking just on the country’s stance on including other cultures and peoples in their country) and maybe xenophobia is a more correct word to use here. And other Asian countries like China are similar. They want to keep things homogenous and that’s part of why japans numbers are in decline as far as birth rates go, according to articles I’ve read and studies on the subject.
But anyways, I think the reason so many people associate Japan with cyberpunk is due to that being their first exposure to the genre thru Japanese content, the fact that Japan is one of the technological powerhouses of the world when it comes to innovation in that sector, and people simply have a fascination with the beauty and, like you said, the exoticism of Asian women (I am pretty sure the top searched term on p*rnhub last year was Japanese, so.. make of that what you will), and personally I have a fascination with the Japanese culture - a mix of old and new, that, as an American, I can’t imagine. The idea of being able to drive by historical buildings that are almost a thousand years old, while stopping off to pick up dinner or something, seeing women walk around in full kimono dress, just experiencing a culture that’s been around for thousands of years. meanwhile America is over here not even 300 years old yet acting like we run the place. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with appreciation but there is a line you cross when it goes into obsession or idealization or sexualization or whatever.
Now I’m just rambling. Thanks for the info you provided it definitely sent me on a rabbit hole of learning 👍
My theory it's because Japan was seen as ahead of everyone in the early eighties, Neuromancer got written at the same time, and that set the aesthetic.
You're 100 percent right. In the 80s we had this fear Japan was going to buy out the US and take over. All the dystopia fictions, cyberpunk especially, had this imagined idea what that would be.
Yes, I was waiting for Neuromancer since it’s often credited with kicking off the cyberpunk genre. Molly is near emotionless and also has sex with Case pretty much out of nowhere
@@thac0twenty377 instead the USA destroyed japans economy lol, and they sold everything to china instead to counter japan and the soviets,
and now they are trying the same to china but china already knows
And this is actually pretty much completely divorced from racist orientalism that came before it.
You're absolutely right. Seems like that knowledge got lost.
I think Nathan pays for his "willful ignorance" in Ex-Machina since he never sees Kyoko as a threat. But over large parts of the movie the audience is treated to his (and Caleb's) view of seeing her as not-human. I think i would have been a really powerful move to see Kyoko actually speaking to Ava. It's hinted that she can but it's a blink-and-you-will-miss-it scene. I'm so conflicted over this movie which I like very much.
Totally agree!! Including that would've been really cool.
I feel like if they spelled this out in Ex Machina, it probably would’ve ruined the whole part of the movie. Teach someone to fish and they will never be hungry.
@@MaiaCVideos I guess more representation helps with painting a more complete picture. It seems that the perks of the dominant culture is exporting culture. China and Japan were given the option to adopt English and the writing system around the 19th - 20th century but refused. America was given the option to adopt, French, Chinese, and Spanish but most Americans saw it as pointless. Europe and the world were suppose to adopt French during 17th -19th century but most people didn't care for it.
With this movie there are 2 things. Ex machina was a Greek theater story type (?) in which there was chaos going on in the play, and then through some sort of machine a Greek god actor came from “above” and fixed everything. So something interesting to think about, since the white men were…the ones that lost let’s say.
The other thing is that I watched an interpretation where she (I don’t remember her name) takes the mistreatment towards Kyoko as a sign that both men were not really good people. Just because Kyoko was unable to speak and expected to be an “adult toy”, she was not being considered as someone that should be saved. So she abandons the other guy after Kyoko takes her revenge.
I’m not an expert in analysis, but these 2 things are interesting to look at
@@notleavingmyroom Agree. Just a note, though: the full name of the theatre trope is "Deus ex machina". These days it's usually used to refer to an unsatisfying outside-of-context resolution to a story.
Very good video. Im Japanese Mexican, and have been fortunate to have had the opportunity to have lived in several different countries, each with a different culture, for 10 of my 21 years, so I might have a perspective on this subject that not many might have.
This video has given me many thoughts, too much for a UA-cam comment so I might make a video about this topic, but some things I’ve noticed personally over the years are:
-The futuristic dystopian scenes are not truly fictional, but simple exaggerations of real places, which I believe is likely to become reality in many places
-The atmosphere of rain, fog, darkness is not from the physical location in the setting, but the subconscious mental atmosphere and memories people make visiting or being in cities.
-Asians being cold or robot-like is in general true depending on the country or region, I experience it myself despite being half Japanese living in Japan. This feeling is likely more easily felt if you are from a culture where people are more open, touchy, loud, and laid-back. Example: cashiers in Japan just do the job and the customer leaves, in Mexico the cashiers and customers do small talk. Put a Japanese customer in Mexico and a Mexican customer in Japan, one will feel that the cashier talks too much, the other will feel that the cashier is a robot.
Sorry for long comment and bad English, I’ve been living in Japan a few years now and only get to use it with friends.
That's really interesting, thank you for sharing your thoughts! glad you enjoyed the vid :)
I was going to comment a similar thing. While I do think that even tho the video essay is overall "right" in the fact that many portrayals of this kind are plainly ignorant, i think it is missing to explore the fact that there actually are cultural differences and culture clashes, and to what extent some of these representations are actually "fair use" (obviously exaggerated but it's art after all) and that Japanese culture in particular (and other East Asian cultures too) do have pressure to conform, more distinct feelings of distance and ways of acceptable ranges of communication, stuff like tatemae and honne, etc. And also where work culture is pretty crazy. I mean American work/corporate culture is also kinda crazy but Japan/SK/China for example all seem to have comparatively much bigger pressure to join the corporate culture and way less room for deviation, Japan and SK have their zaibatsu-keiretsu/chaebol, China has these massive state-owned companies and the party.
For context, I'm half Spanish and half Japanese and even though i'm probably like 90% culturally spanish bc i've only been to japan 2/3 times and barely know the language, I still have a Japanese mom, and I do watch a lot of stuff from half Japanese ppl/hafus and from Spanish people who go to Japan and they do talk about their perceptions and their difficulty in connecting or feeling accepted in Japanese friendgroups etc.
I will say that regarding women you were probably way more in the right than in anything, this submissive East Asian woman thing probably requires a lot more nuance and less fetishization bc i'll tell you, my mom's far from this stereotype LOL. and just in general, exploring actual Asian culture and Asian characters the nuances are much more well understood. Some big hitters like Crazy Rich Asians or Everything Everywhere All At Once , or stuff like Studio Ghibli IMO capture more realness than western portrayals
As a fellow Japexican I thank you for your insight. I look forward to seeing your video if you decide to make one.
Eh that's only Japanese or to an extent Korean. If you go down South to China and Vietnam, people are more open and friendly. I know Vietnam is in Southeast Asia, but we're culturally influenced by the Sino sphere. The only explanation is that people in colder climate tends to be more reserved. I notice this trait from lots of my friends from Northern Europe like Sweden or Norway. Generally, they aren't shy or anything. It's just they only talk when they need to. I have to bring this up because it's very unfair to bring up Japan or Korea to represent Asia. I know this because I'm Vietnamese. I know my own culture and my own neighbor culture. We're a diverse group of people valuing different things.
@@cloudynguyen6527 Always remember that when Americans talk about Asian, they actually mean either Chinese, Korean or Japanese. I've heard that in England, Asian means Indian, or South Asian in general. So basically when westerners talk about Asian, SE Asian and Middle-Eastern aren't included in the conversation.
Agreed, but Mickey Rooney yellow faced in “Breakfast at Tiffany’s,” not “The Breakfast Club.”
I was wondering why I didn't remember that scene.
Well, since you mentioned the breakfast club. They might have confused it with the Long Duc Dong asian character in another John Hughes movie 'Sixteen Candles' also starring Ringwald and Hall as kids.
Can we start bitching and moaning about white face now? We too can pretend it matters.
@@jjsamuelgunn1136
Malapropism.
Basically, both movies have "Breakfast" in their name.
Lots of people in this comment section are nerds getting triggered and acting defensively, using Japan's technological dominance in the late 20th century as a counter argument as if it's nothing but a source for innocent sci-fi inspiration.
What's incredibly ironic is that they're missing the entire point. Japan's economic re-emergence, as well as eventual technological lead in the second half of 20th century, itself fueled hostility and fear of losing dominance in America. The infamous murder of Chinese American Vincent Chin in 1982 was done by American autoworkers who mistook him for a Japanese, and the murderers served no jail time, basically let go scot-free, with little scrutity from the government or mainstream civil rights groups. The US felt so threatened by Japan, similarly to how they do now with China, they coaxed Japan into signing the Plaza Accord, devaluating their currency, which eventually contributed to Japan's economic downfall. The Japanese were always presented as monotonous, corporate beings and American companies are bound to be bought up by Japanese corporations in most Hollywood movies in late 20th Century. Japanese buyout in RoboCop 3, Americans converting to Japanese-esque cultures in Demolition Man and Blade Runner were just a few famous examples still popular today.
But of course, this is all easily forgotten by today's Americans, all historical traces in mass media of that time are now generally dismissed by today's viewers as facination of a quirky 80s Japan. Few think too deeply into what that facination truly was: fear. In the America-dominated West's collective psyche, Asian countries have always been either dismissed as sources of exoticism or treated as sources of threats, but never respected as worthy peers like between America and Europe.
This incredibly salty comment section, where people point to the obvious but refuse to be moved by an inch further to think with historical context, is a great manifestation of this mentality.
Edit: fixed typos..
Except Asians do the exact thing to westerners in Asia to a much larger extent
Japan literally employs Cyberpunk in some of their own media, such as Akira and Ghost in the Shell.
Honestly, cyberpunk's very idea was based around Hong Kong during the 1970s and 80s. Of course it would look Asian. Just like steampunk looks like Victorian London.
It’s not about the aesthetics its about how asians are portrayed in steam punk you’ll still have good white people and are portrayed as people in well known steam punk settings (kinda sad their isn’t that many cool movie’s about it) but in hollywood bs topia version of cyberpunk asian robots and white man hero it’s dull it’s boring and it reeks of fetishized bs atleast with popular games people are people
@@augustuslunasol10thapostle kinda true, video games have a more global community and Japan leads the industry in many sections while the Chinese make up the largest market. Making "Asia bad" in games will do more harm than good.
Yes, it's portrayed like "look at these chinks! They're going to take over your country in the future!"
Techno-Orientalism in cyberpunk is such a interesting topic
I don't think you can take write this off as a product of orientalism or racism. Consider the massive influence of Ghost in the Shell on cyberpunk. It's a Japanese animated film, which features some quite reserved and at least externally emotionless characters in a Hong Kong inspired city where despite the large number of people they are still socially isolated.
Cities are "Asian coded" both because Asia has some of the most modern cities in the world and because Asian cyberpunk served as such an inspiration. Tokyo or Shanghai look quite a lot like how we imagine cyberpunk, from the sprawling cities to the rampant commercialism, but it's because these are the kinds of cities that inspired it first.
And when one of the core critiques of cyberpunk is of an isolating late capitalist society, why wouldn't a society with large entrenched family corporations, with extremely long working hours, where life revolves around work with little time or energy left for socialisation, with stricter social protocols for what interaction exists, become such a foundational inspiration for it?
I think above all though it's impossible to discuss the Asian aspects of cyberpunk without discussing the genuine Asian origins of them. There's Ghost in the Shell, Akira, lesser known ones like Metropolis or Alita, as well as non-cyberpunk sci-fi or science fantasy like Evangelion which have been incredibly influential at least within niche genres.
The real reasons just flew a couple thousand feet above her head. She is just trying to pin her cognitive biases on reality.
Not just GITS but also Akira, Ergo proxy and many more lost to all the people in 2023, plenty of influential Cyberpunk series came from Japan. This whole video is extremely ignorant of this.
@@VainSick Her entire argument is based on ignorance. The Dunning Kruger effect is in full swing here.
Did you watch the video at all?
In Cyberpunk 2020 you could adventure in two other exotic locations: The EEC and the Soviet Union. The first is the other rising star next to Japan, with its own economic block of relative prosperity. The other was a mix of the party/state, organised crime and a dominant petrochemical corp. Their japanese corp Arasaka was founded by a japanese nationalist and traditionalist who wanted to rule a world frozen in his ideals. We don't get to adventure much in the EEC or Japan itself but Arasaka definitely comes off as a monolith of loyal goons.
Written cyberpunk had a fascination with the economic prosperity of Japan during the 80's when the country was looking like it could overtake the USA.
I can't speak for Pondsmith's writing for 2020, but in CDPR's adaptation in 2077 this is not seen as Japanese encroachment onto western values, but rather as the terrifying idea of a WW2 Japanese war criminal collecting enough power and influence to mold the world as he sees fit.
Speaking more to the original RPG's writing: I should note that Arasaka's main rival is an American corp called Millitech who are hardly better. In fact no, they just aren't better, both of them are terrible. The CEO of Arasaka is the Emperor of Japan and the CEO of Millitech is the President of the NUSA (depending on the time period of the setting) and both participate in corporate warfare the kills millions of people.
The look of the original Blade Runner film and the entire live action Ghost in the Shell film are based on images and stories from Japanese Manga and Anime. These are visions of a future dystopia created by Japanese in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Please add Akira to the list. Are these works somehow Techno-Orientalist to you? I think you can fairly claim the Ghost in the Shell remake to be unoriginal. But what about the source material's sexy cyborg major? Who created her character?
Interesting to note that the works you mentioned are original Jappanese dystopian Cyberpunk visions
I agree and want to add that in Asian (non-animated) productions, like Chinese or Indian cinema, the white people are either background dancer or bad guys. In japanese movies, they are often non-existent and given the very restrictive rules Japan has for foreigners who want to immigrate into that country... I would argue that "the West" (whoever that will be) is judged by a double standard.
Things like the Katy Perry kimono situation are even more hilarious to me. It was only mentioned briefly. But to me, culture is accessible to everyone.
If you tell a white person not to wear a sombrero for fun or a kimono when going through Kyoto... you are incentivising white people to keep to themselves and exclude people from other backgrounds, so you are not considered a sexist or racist.
I think that asian-colored cities are more a depiction of the future because it shows a lot of change, while it still feels grounded in reality.
The aesthetic of Neuromancer was invented by a guy trying to imagine what the future would look like. He was living in a society that was being influenced by Japanese and Korean culture to a degree that had not previously happened. It's only natural that the version of the future he imagines comes to look like a more complete blending of those things.
The villains in that book aren't megacorps either, they are western aristocrats/oligarchs.
The protagonist in Snow Crash is half japanese half polish. And that book is usually considered the crystallization of the genre.
Cloud Atlas is literally a deconstructionist effort, and the fact that the cyberpunk section of that book aligns with some of the tropes of the genre is the point. Literally every character in that book is a different race at some point in the story. Calling it racist in this way is wild.
Honestly this whole video feels misguided. Handwaving very explicitly Japanese and Korean cultural influences as "asian" or "techno-orientalism" seems almost racist. And arguing that megacorps or predatory capitalism is somehow representative of asian culture is just downright bizarre.
I think that is fair, I think its tough because cyberpunk really does seem to have a bit of a tie in with asia, and i dont think these movies are "bad" for having these sort of characters but i do feel that when many of them were made they were made in this lense. I think the entire genre has kind of accepted japan and usually "tokyo" in cyberpunk is a common place for a story to take place in, or at least heavily inspired by tokyo atmosphere. I do feel the video was a little bit off, but i think it still had some good points regarding how we initially "see" techno- ori- ent alism . I am not sure if all of her points land about it causing racism and it shows asia as cruel etc, but i can imagine how the early stories that was part of it, i can imagine many genres have not so great backgrounds and history that were integral to the creation of the genre. I mean look at HP lovecraft, one of the most talked about horror writers, many people love his stories and the influences on so many different stories is so interesting to see. But he was a very afraid person and also kinda racist, sometimes that kinda bleeds over into his work, i mean like literally one of the outer gods is called "Shub-n_wo rd" and look also at what inspired him to create this outer god. But his impact on horror and writing is hard not to see. I feel its kinda like that, there isnt a "we need to not enjoy this thing anymore" its more of a "this is the influence, or this is a possible influence" and use it as a stepping stone to write stories.
@@thatsagoodone8283 listening to white people in indian cinema is hilarious because they all have the british accent.
One thing that cyberpunk could stand to focus on more, is the blurring of lines between Corporations and Government through technology. Much of what we are experiencing today is the result of the two structures combining, and making life convenient in many ways, and straight-up damaging in all other ways. The cultural blending of different countries is also a minor point in Ghost in the Shell, but isn’t fully explored.
oriiginal cyberpunk has orporations transplant governments, but you do see that in Neuromancer etc
Stray does not make Asian people into robots, it uses Asian cultural features to humanise the robots in the game. And it is set in a dystopian future with East Asian characteristics, but it explains that the blame is wholly at the feet of a mass monopoly that has taken hold over the entire world and population.
Yeah, I wouldn't include Stray because Stray is specifically based on the now defunct Kowloon Walled City of Hong Kong.
you are referring to Japan or all whole Asia? Mind you, middle east , india is asia too.
Why have robots in the first place with Asians?
@@zhen86 Russia is Asian too, but most people, when they say "Asian," are referring to _East_ Asia, China, Japan, Korea, and to some degree South East Asia. India is generally considered "South Asia."
@@timogul And that’s not okay
stray is actually just set in paris, its not supposed to be an asian language but a combination of all languages on the signs
Yeah right. Keep defending it and ignore the obvious
@@nehcooahnait7827 Are you fucking serious right now
@@nehcooahnait7827 There’s absolutely nothing racist about the cyberpunk genre
I don't think the crew of Big Hero 6 thought all the way through on the cultural perspectives in the original film, with no character showed distinctive psychological traits interpreted that are common in Japan or Asia, but the subsequent educational mini series really hit my mind and truly showed people from west are finally understanding and seeing the culture in a human perspective. In the first episode, the protagonist is a cranky, overdeterminant, neurotic elderly Japanese woman with aquaphobia and arthritis, the literal elderly version of "iron muscle", the show used 10 minuites to briefly unraveled her traumas and showed how she digest loss of loved ones differently, and finally accepted it. It is not as profound as Everything Everywhere All at Once and Turning Red which is from perspectives people experienced both or originated from, but showed great patience in recognizing the unignorable behavioral differences derived from the same universal values. Even as Chinese raised in China under influence of modern culture I had to ask my grandparents a lot of questions to truly understand my culture and human behaviors sometimes, so I say it is a promising sign for a 10-min show, but still far away.
If we talk about Cyberpunk the movie with the most influence on me is Ghost in the Shell from 1995.
I don’t know if it was produced for western audience, but I doubt it.
Everything you describe is in that movie, except the western protagonist.
Is it techno-orientalism as well?
And when not, where exactly is the difference.
Is it the intention? Is it the group that created it?
You are giving simple answers for complex questions, likewise the generalism in the portrait of east Asia in your Cyberpunk examples.
I think the point is that with the western protagonists in the films. Often they excluded any humane Asian representation or full characters. It's the treatment of Asian symbolism without any substance. Ghost in the Shell didn't politicize orientalism or race, it dealt with a future run by corporate tyranny. It's messaging was clear and I think that added to why it was so influencial.
@@BenCaesar what constitutes "substance" in this context? if the casting of the main character is what makes the difference, then substance is irrelevant. the vast majority of cyberpunk films avoid politicizing race. they almost universally feature a large mix of cultures dominated by international corporations.
@@rumfordc right, good question👏🏾. You’re right they feature a wide range of cultures. But How are these cultures
represented?
How much substance do these characters have?. I mean Substance in this context from a writing standpoint, are they fully fleshed out or one dimensional characters? A marker of substance is how humane and dynamic is a character.
Imo decisions on main, side and supporting characters, how cultures are represented - are political decisions.
Cyberpunk doesn’t transcend politics because it includes different races. If it paints races in a diminutive way then it’s not fairly representing that race.
Again imo 🙏🏾
@@BenCaesar they are all represented as serfs a hyper commodified environment. all of the cultures are presented as commodified, they are all "diminutive" including the main character's culture. in a movie there is barely enough time to flesh out the main character let alone multiple characters. when it's a series, lots of characters get fleshed out because there is more time. these are consequences of time, not genre.
@@rumfordc true, series can flesh out a lot more. But I think we can compare the parallel between Tom Cruises the Last Samurai and Akira Kurasawa 7 Samurai. Both set in Japan both have Asian casts. But when you put a western protagonist as a lead how are the other cultures treated?
Hollywood has a history of a white savior storyline, and as a ‘minority’ I’m critical of that it’s just not a nice experience. And while Cyberpunk is a perfect genre to transcend that history I feel it also sometimes falls victim to it.
But that’s my take. And I believe that’s what this video was analyzing.
I think the Ghost In The Shell animated films, OVAs and series are some of my favorite science fiction over all.
There's so much implied, unspoken and also expositioned and topical discussion in questioning identity and the "self". I think this might be relevant not only to future concerns about identity, but, it also explores identity from an East-Asian perspective of social norms prizing cultural assimilation and one-ness with society over originality and self-expression. We see this IRL with the school uniform and work uniform culture of uniformity, and sameness. Who are you if everyone looks and acts the same? Are you even an individual?
man i hate this comment so fuckin much. it completely encapsulates what the video was fuckin talking about, are you that unself-aware? white people are so creative and asians are just good because they practice so much? that's pretty much what you're saying. especially from korea, look at their art and artists, going back thousands of years. check which countries rank high on the innovation index, a list that is completely composed by white people.
this video explicitly discussed white people portraying asians as robots and this person just does that very same shit. you must have just watched the thing and you so easily slipped into that. bit scary how people work sometimes.
In most sci-fi stories in japan, technology advancement is seen as dangerous.
People also fear the booming economics might have serious consequence.
Like Godzilla is the symbol of destructive nuclear weapon.
Akira depicts neo-tokyo as a city full of crimes, riots and corrupted politician.
In the original GITS comic, the author predicted criminals will commit crimes with advanced technology in the future.
Yeah there was a time when Japan was thought to take over the world with Japanese people traveling the world, buying priceless art on a whim, and snatching up real estate. I mean look at how 80s/90s media made the Japanese katana so mythically strong like in Highlander. Or corporations in Die Hard, Blade Runner... Naming of "cool" things with Japanese sounding names continues to this very day.
Imho, this needs more elaboration on how old orientalism and cyberpunk are connected through more than looking similar. Especially with mentioning works like Ex Machina (the robot looking asian is part of her builder's characterization) and Ghost in the Shell (Major Makoto is white in both versions because she inherits a body that is not her own, this is not specific to the Hollywood remake). And because cyberpunk is nowhere more popular than in Japan, which can hardly be accused of othering East Asia (though media in Japan do sometimes other China specifically).
If Japan opposes China, then China opposes Japan.
Japan does have a strange relationship to America though. I wouldn't say it's impossible for some of its media to be othering itself.
@@shraka This is the typical lib-patronizing attitude you are expressing here but nothing much more.
@@IsomerSoma I’m not a Lib though so… There’s that.
@@IsomerSoma Stfu, reactionary snowflake.
I feel like the debate sometimes veers into attributing negative intention - which is dangerous. Filmmakers and artists, like all of us, simultaneously add to and *inhabit* the visual language of their times and culture. The fact that someone engages in a visual language that may dehumanize a certain group, if we sit down and interpret it from a sociological perspective, does not equate that they have *intention to dehumanize* - they are engaging and participating in the visual language of a certain genre, using specific tropes and artifacts as shorthand for specific cultural notions that they want the audience to absorb.
The fact that those tropes, by themselves, reveal something uncomfortable about our own perceptions and inherent biases is... Well, it's possibly too big of a burden for the individual artist to shoulder, unless they are setting out to do *just that* - you can't make up your own visual language, and expect audiences to have the emotional response that you were trying to conjure. That's not how visual language works. It inherently tends to bypass the critical filter - it's why it is such a useful tool.
Sorry to say that but...
Find a colorfull thing, and someone will call it rascist.
And then find something with less color and someone will call it rascist.
racist*, because it's "race", not "rasce"
I think it's a bit superficial. Far away lands were NEVER real places inhabited by real humans. If you read East Asian stories and legends about the lands in the West there are always monsters and gods and treasures...
If you go today in a small town in Asia and ask about their image of Europe you will probably get a Swiss postcard village or a fake German castle from the 19th century or the Eiffel tower. Same for the US: New York, LA, maybe Texas cowboys and Miami.
There is a trend on social media to present an idealized versions of village life, those villages are never as they look on screen.
We, the humans, always put mythical places over the horizon.
On the flip side, films or tv shows made by Asians for the Asian markets don’t play nice with the western cultures either. Observe Kung-fu movies and Japanese animes that involved foreign (white) characters. They are usually one-dimensional and only serve as plot devices. Being an Asian person myself I cringed when I saw that happen.
You must be some Colonized Banana 🍌 because the White Westerners are the bad guys in Real-Life.
Cultures portraying themselves as multifaceted and the others as simplistic is a tale as old as time - but as the west has gotten considerably more multicultural than east Asia has we’ve had that reckoning sooner
good point.
Only the top dog gets to be criticized-we Asian were also racist as hell compare to most western countries. My friends like to make those very gamerish offensive black jokes, not ironically
@@liamferreira9928 yeah it seems like people tend to ignore the fact that America more than many other countries is very diverse and multi-cultural. All cultures portray themselves as multi-faceted and the other as simplistic, yet the US and Hollywood tends to bear the brunt of criticism for a lack of multi-culturalism, and other countries don't. When US doesn't tell stories about other countries they're heavily criticised. But other countries are not expected to have that responsibility. Also why people pretend as if there isn't enormous xenophobia in asian countries, especially Japan.
I've generally felt that in the cyberpunk world, when the primary language and culture is Asian, it is not due to a devious plot, but rather they are the larger population. Like an inevitable outcome.
Yes I also feel the same. When I visited Australia last year, I found that there are a lot of Chinese people here, especially in big cities.
That’s part of the orientalism. Cyberpunk has its roots in the “Yellow Scare” wherein Asia’s vast populations will eventually overrun the West economically that has its roots as far back as 1850.
I cant believe I went through the video without it mentioning alita battle angel. it potrays a manga-inspirated cyberpunk with an asian female *main character* that is amazingly writted and quite faithful to the source.
It's not only manga-inspired. It is based on Gunnm, a manga.
@@Samuel-th6fw Afaik, GUNNM is an OVA, it's Battle Angel Alita that is a manga series.
the movie actress is not Asian at all.
@@skoczek777both are the same thing gunnm is the Japanese name and Alita is called gally in the manga.
Technically Alita is half German later revealed to not even be really human being cut from a Tumor from her dying mother. In this aspect she is similar to guts the black swordsman
The media we love most is the media we must be most closely critical of. It's the willful refusal to accept or even see this point that is one of the most deeply frustrating habits on the internet. As it goes, if one critically examines a beloved piece of media, the knee-jerk reaction is way too often "why do you hate x".
*grumble*
So it goes.
I think you are overthinking it a lot. People don't fear asia talking over the world, people don't fear other cultures.
Instead they get inspired by them.
William Gibson's Necromancer, a pillar for the cyberpunk genre starts in Japan but it's pretty clear the whole world is messed up by hypercapitalism.
On one point I can agreed. I think there is a certain fetishisation of asian people in western media (men as well especially korean 🤔).
Other tropes like the russian rough guy also exist, I wonder why for asian people it's more sexual 🤔
I disagree with fetish crap...people throw that word around it's actually dumb...as someone who spends a lot of time in different communities, it simply means they are interested and have a bad way of expressing that they do.
I always thought it was due to cyberpunk being inspired by 80s Japan, I didn't even notice that it was portrayed as bad only as cool an aesthetic, quite interesting
yeah it is, the whole genre is japanese and modeled after japanese technology (ghost in the shell, akira etc). it is important to talk about how hollywood films can end up having some racist tropes in the cyberpunk genre but lets not forget that some of these same tropes were created by japanese artists themselves as exaggerations of japanese culture socially
cyberpunk as a style originated in Japanese films depicting dystopian futures
It's portrayed as bad because historically Japan is bad
@@Kill3rrockstar I tend to forget that sometimes. Even though I definitely took history classes, Japan in the present has little resemblance of what it was due to all the current entertainment
It is, this video is just pushing intersectionality and other stuff that are half right but still ends up being racism somehow. Bottom line: Cyberpunk is heavily influenced by Japan, and Tokyo with its neon lights and kanji everywhere along with the huge mega corps that rose there are at the core of cyberpunk. Same for Hong Kong. Same for Seoul/Korea with the aesthetic alleyways, chaebol corps, and aesthetic hangeul writing. Cyberpunk is at its core East Asian, futurism, and a result of a marriage of East/West aesthetics in a hyper globalised and capitalistic future. So sick of racism being pushed into everything, cyberpunk is amazing
I think it’s important to separate the genre as it is and contrast it more clearly with implementations. Especially when there are cynical reproductions created to cash in on known great works. (I’m looking at you, Ghost In The Shell.) The cyberpunk genre looks how it does I feel because it very much has developed from Eastern and Western artists inspiring each other.
You gloss over this in a few different segments but miss on what the genre as it stands is actually about, which is corporate authoritarianism. You hit it on it’s head in regards to the original Blade Runner. There absolutely was a concern from Americans losing more of their livelihoods to Eastern countries as it already happened at that point to the rust belt. The part that I feel you neglected to further the larger argument of your essay is that this is an emotional reflection to show the actual dystopia heralded by corporate control. The dehumanization of cyberpunk comes from corporate control. What it looks like is down to aesthetics and emotional tone. The characters lose their humanity through technological augmentation, mass surveillance, and economic imprisonment. It really isn’t about who they are, or where they are from. That is of course unless where they are from is the controlling corporate class.
I was waiting for this video to talk about late stage capitalism within the Cyberpunk genre, where corporations are essentially more powerful and influential than governments, where mega corps only care about the profit motive rather than the wellbeing of society which is why most citizens in these settings live in slums and have to participate in "survival economies."
@@Norex1250 Yep. It's easy to get distracted by identity and the individual and miss the environment. Forest from the trees in other words.
This is like how lord of the rings inspired a western medieval image of a fantasy world seen in mangas/manhwa.
@@k.l3062 exactly.
@@Norex1250 This isn't a video on late stage capitalism and focusing on that would miss the point 🙄
The whole point of the Love Death Robots episode you showed was to criticize the loss of culture that foreign industry brought those countries, how the country, exemplified by the girl, was taken advantage of and modified to fit the foreigners tastes, and that over time the technology allowed them to reclaim their culture, land and themselves. If you didn’t look a little deeper than surface level for Love Death Robots, it calls into question your entire point.
Same could be said about her critisisms of Ex Machina. Kyoko's character is meant to be the way she is to explore the perverted characteristics of Nathan and how his sexual proclivities for Asian women have bled directly into his work. I mean, nobody watches that movie thinking Nathan is the good guy. His character is meant to portray this aspect of racism, not promote it, or even lackadaisically endure it.. I do agree with some points made, but in general, I think a lot of this video is just the ramblings of a white-hating suburban communist zoomer.
Nah man, i'm half chinese half malaysian and i wouldn't get triggered simply by this notion. Steampunk dystopian trope usually takes place in Victorian England, Dieselpunk dystopian trope usually takes place in Germany, and Cyberpunk dystopian trope usually takes place in HongKong / Japan. What is the difference? They are all using iconic countries respective to their timeline. That's all to it.
Exactly, I got this dumbass video shoved down my throat today in a communications class I'm taking right now, and I honestly couldn't agree with it less. What's there to be triggered about sci-fi movies and shows using an Asian aesthetic in its presentation of the future? It's just a reflection of reality, as everyone knows that China and Japan are at the forefront of major tech development, with South Korea and Japan having some of the most modern looking cities in the world.
If anything, having Asian aesthetics in a depiction of a vastly technologically advanced future is a celebration of Asian culture more than anything. Whether conscious or not, it's basically the West's way of saying "Your country is cool because it's got a bunch of cool tech." Complaining about the prominence of oriental culture in western sci-fi is the same line of bullshit as the idea behind "cultural appropriation". Just another case of insecure minorities wanting to blame everything on the whites.
Also, it's incredibly obvious that the person who made this video didn't even take the time to properly consume the works cited here. If the idiot who made this actually watched Ex Machina, they would know that the reason Oscar Isaac has naked Asian chicks as his sex slaves in that film, was because he was the VILLAIN. That whole movie has themes of male-to-female domestic abuse and is arguably even a little woke. Context and nuance are just non-existent to braindead SJWs these days.
Damn, this was an incredible video essay. As a massive fan of cyberpunk I didn't even realize those kinds of motivations might've been part of what led to its creation as a genre. I know when William Gibson was first writing Neuromancer (the first piece of cyberpunk media along with Blade Runner) his inspiration for creating the world came mostly from otaku/magazine culture at the time and he would basically make these massive piles in his living room of reference material and flip through them to get inspiration for his stories. So, I'm willing to bet that there was some weird orientalism going on (at least in the American art magazines he flipped through) that might've been unintentionally passed through his work into the broader culture. Kinda sad since he's literally my favourite author of all time and when you see him speak in interviews you know he's doing all of this speculative fiction from a place of pure wonder at the increasingly techno-capitalistic world unfolding around him, but obviously no one's perfect and it dates the cyberpunk genre to a particular time when these kinds of allusions would've made "intuitive" sense to american audiences (meaning they were fed a bunch of mccarthyist/xenophobic lies about asian culture to the point where those bigoted views were internalized). There's so many themes about the failures of capitalism that become so crushingly real in all the best cyberpunk work that I've come to appreciate throughout the years, but honestly I can understand why some people would find it problematic.
I'm actually hoping to write a cyberpunk-inspired book sometime within the near future, and seeing this video has shown me that there is a clear direction the genre can take to avoid orientalism. Thank you
Thank you so much, I totally agree with your thoughts! And glad this was helpful for your writing :)
William Gibson strongly objected to the Vietnam War which was, on many levels, a racist debacle that dehumanized Asian people as a whole. He simply had an interest on how strong and widely spread were the information technologies in Japan, particularly in Akiba (which was at the time worldwide famous for its chip and electronic markets in the streets), as well as the architecture in places such as Kowloon's Walled City (which was the extreme example of anarchocapitalism on Earth).
There are no "honest and goods" in Gibson's works, even less to according to race. Also, it's nice how the entire thing crumbles if you think of Ghost in the Shell, Akira or another number of Asian cyberpunk pieces, also literary ones. I guess they will just state they "internalized hatred" or something.
Same thing here
The look of cyberpunk is all based on the origins, the japanese literally created this. Most of cyberpunk media are literally mangas and animes
@DeadManWalking akira was released in 1982 written by katsuhiro otomo, while william gibson’s neuromancer was published in 1984.
"I just think its neat."
- Marge Simpson
I never thought of Asians as "soulless". When I saw Japan aesthetic in the genre I come to think of them as so intelligent and cultured that it makes Westerners seem more like the unfeeling barbarians from the Conan series, somehow more beast than man. That's how I see Westerners sometimes in cyberpunk, as someone who is more primitive that the cultured society that is now the norm in the genre.
It's more an empathy/expressiveness issue at heart here than an architectural one
Your essentialization of nuanced and specific cultural aesthetics (and behaviors) comes off as racialist, as you tend to value one culture as “superior” over the other.
A couple of things also in the mix...
The decline of the West and the rise of Japan & China. Blade Runner played on the fears of the decline of the US, as did Looper. The idea that our culture would be colonized just as we colonized other cultures is often present in the subtext.
Slightly hinted at by talking about the Ghost In The Shell anime is the long shadow Japanese media casts as we emulate a lot of the stuff we see in Japanese techno-futures. As someone currently learning Japanese, I can attest to the power of exploring such a vibrant media landscape and the impulse to emulate it.
6:30 I'm sorry? There's plenty of asian people on blade runner, also the iconic huge screen with a japanese woman.
I feel like this is a critique of specifically American Cyberpunk, but ignores that cyberpunk largely started in Japan with manga and movies such as Gundam, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, the list goes on. Not to mention the most recent Cyberpunk 2077 anime series was made by Japanese studio Trigger. These late 80's early 90's anime are revered as critically acclaimed and put Japan on the map as a media giant. I guess I would have liked to hear more about how that played a role in the Cyberpunk genre instead of just viewing it from a purely American lens.
Yea this video kinda sucks lol it never mentions that this genre actually did originate in east asia and was adapted in the west by people who were inspired by it
Amazing video essay! Looking into the issues of apropriation and portrying cultures to appease audience expectations is super necessary. Thank you!
Citing that one episode of Love DEath & Robots as Techno-Orientalist is interesting, since it takes place during the colonization of Hong Kong, depicts the atomizing and destructive influences of western colonial industry and imperialism, and centres on two Asian protagonists that eventually specifically coopt the western industry to build a means to resist against western male objectification of asian women.
I feel like a large aspect of your observations are the actual differences in cultures. Asian cultures are more collectivist, and that, to westerners, seems less humane. Taken to the extreme in a technologically advanced society, some aspects of these fictional settings make sense. I think your observations are from a western point of view (regardless of what culture you identify the most strongly with).
Tell me you're woke without telling me you're woke. The video essay.
Tell me you've never been to college without telling me you've never been to college. The comment.
I'm assuming that was meant as an insult. Not only is it not true, it's also a really poor insult. Higher education has severely degraded in quality over the past decade in the west, while increasing in price, and it's gotten to the point where unless you attend some of the top 1% schools, you're better off just doing something else. But if college education results in these kind of uninsightful, disingenuous, downright hateful pieces of writing, then I suggest you skip it entirely, because this essay is worse than useless. It is actually harmful to anyone looking to learn anything about this topic. It's extremely selective with the information it presents and it's going to great lengths to mask its interpretations as facts. You're better off just digesting the relevant content yourself and then coming up with your own conclusions. However basic those may be, they're probably going to be more realistic than whatever is presented in this essay. It's like, soviet propaganda had more nuance than this. And I should know, I live in a former soviet state.
@@hustlecrowe9440 Anyone who has been to college would figure out most of the Cyberpunk genre was written and animated in Tokyo before making this stupid video.
@@hustlecrowe9440Going to college and taking a class study on "Critical Media Studies" doesn't make you smart. All it does is turn you into something thin-skinned, easily offended, woke SJW moron.
Japanese audience including Masamune Shirow the creator of Ghost in the Shell was totally fine with the live action, including Motoko's portrayal.
also the setting of ghost in the shell is based on Hong Kong, so we could make the argument that both films are culturally appropriating Chinese culture without representation of Chinese people, lmao
White people love to virtue signal, as always
This may be a partial explainer for several other entertainment industry attitudes that are widely held. Many Americans believe that Japanese video games are either quaint and dated, or overly complex and inaccessible. During the late 2000s this attitude was so widespread that Japanese devs heard about it and attempted to shift their products to no longer resemble the most vocal complaints. I suspect this attitude may come from a similar psychology to the anxieties discussed in the video.
I didn't watch the essay, most people like the whole cyberpunk aesthetic because it takes the best parts of 'Asian' aesthetics and adds cool tech to it.
That's it, "Wow this looks cool, I would love to eat noodles in the rain while wearing a trenchcoat in neon-lit Hong Kong" is all that goes through someone's head.
Atleast you didn't pretend to care.
Very honest comment. Nice
Good that you didn't watch.
It was pretty much a blunt "woke" political message.
And that's it, it displays nothing except that.
Every aspect described in this essay can be easily attributed to works of fiction about western civilization. There are numerous books, tv shows, films were tech in the hands of westerners leads to a 'soulless" dystopian outcome. So it is quite picky to directly associate the choice of a setting to the so-called "FEAR OF ASIA". For most of the pieces of art stated in this video it is more of a stylistic choice rather than a solid trend of "Techno-orientalism". Obviously, for westerners the eastern Asian style in blend with cybertech looks exotic, mysterious and would attract readers. This seems like a more plausible reason, especially for the people who lived in the pre-globalized world.
From a mainland Asian perspective, a cyberpunk capitalist critique of Japan is not racist in my eyes, especially as Japan has never been colonized and has historically been a brutal imperialist force who has whitewashed and erased their own atrocities on the Asian continent. You’re looking at this from a liberal western perspective while you are ignoring the eastern anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, progressive perspective
As someone who is Japanese, has a deep interest in American pop culture from the 80s and 90s, I have concerns about the way the term "Asian" is being used in this video.
It appears to be used interchangeably to refer to both "culture from Asia" and "Asian people”.
It's important to note that these “techno-orientalism” in American movies are mostly,
if not all, based on an interpretation of Japanese culture from that time, and Japanese people in Japan generally don't find this offensive.
Similarly, Japanese movies that depict American culture often offer our own interpretation based on our perspective.
I think it’s natural for people to find foreign cultures mysterious and exotic, as we can only gain an impression of them from a distance.
I’m sorry if you find such impressions lead to negative stereotypes that result in racial discrimination against Asian-American people but its worth noting that Japanese people often enjoy and proud seeing foreigners take an interest in our culture and traditions.
In fact, Japanese absolutely love seeing foreign tourists dressing up in traditional Japanese attire like kimonos or portraying iconic figures like samurais and ninjas,
Especially American people consider how much it has changed from war time.
Friends influence friends.
I'm constantly at once fascinated and frustrated by exoticism of other cultures and its influence on how that culture actually sees itself. I'm someone of mixed descent, one of my ethnic backgrounds being southern China, and I live in the north east US. My perception of the China that I came from is a constant struggle of trying to update my view through hard research and figuring out what I actually like about US perceptions of China. Even then, sometimes what we think of as orientalism, because it's a perceptual aspect that does not match the original location, might not actually be ignorance, but instead could be immigrants from that area changing and adapting their culture to life in the new area.
Sorry if that's unclear or dense, but that's what I constantly find myself thinking about.
Nothing is going to replace actually living there. Least of which China. Place is too damn big and everyone's localized experiences here are equally valid interpretations of China, despite the extreme variations. Most US writers are essentialist with China because Korea and Japan are enablers of that essentialism, which stems from cultural essentialism and 19th century European nationalism centered around such essentialist mythmaking. I personally have given up on US writers for the most part.
Cheers from Hangzhou.
@@ruedelta "mythmaking" is exactly right. sometimes they fabricate things, with a clear goal.
also don't forget all the whitewashing the west has done. complete lies, false narratives and fabricated stories just to create hatred towards china it's insane
I wouldn't say it's an "unwarranted fear" of Asia. Just that when Cyberpunk became a thing all tech in America basically came out of Japan or Taiwan, so they thought that would be the norm in the future. Then the Japan economy crashed and isn't as ubiquitous as before. But Cyberpunk, just like regular Punk, is now old and has a set look, and that includes the 80's and 90's weebery in it. It wouldn't look nostalgic and cyberpunk without random Kanji and Japanese products everywhere. That's a hangover from decades ago, not a "fear from Hollywood"
Techno-Orientalism is such a cool term, even if it was not intended to have a positive meaning.
While you make a solid point, but I feel like some examples are more of a mixed bag in terms of fitting the trope:
- Blade Runner's world-building is based on techno-orientalism, but the main antagonists are white men who exploit those changes for personal gain. In fact, both movies' villains are male Caucasians playing god independently from the Japanese industry that took over LA.
- Ex-Machina uses the trope but also exploits it. Kyoko is a mute robot but it's clear that Nathan is aware of the stereotype behind Asian characters and the decision to make her this way shows HIM as the bad guy in this while Kyoko is simply a victim of circumstances.
- Stray is the one example I think doesn't fit because the way they blend in the techno-orientalism is shown in a more positive light. The robots use oriental fashion and culture but they're also surprisingly warm, welcoming and see this culture as an integral part of the human world rather than making it a threat. If anything, the techno-orientalism in this game is helping to give the environment color and life rather than sucking it away from it.
Cyberpunk came out of a fear for the rising corporate greed and concerning lack of individualism and identity in people. Bladerunner uses East Asian technological aesthetics because at the time of making the movie, 70s and 80s, East Asian was known for its unbelievably advanced technology for its time. Japan took it in stride with Akira and Ghost In The Shell and truly made it their genre, every movie and piece of media that has come out since then has been inspired by the previous iterations of Cyberpunk. Bladerunner 2049, Cyberpunk2077, ex machine, love death robots, stray are all making the exact same point that Cyberpunk was originally created to make, there is no sense of orientalism because they are literally building off of an inspiration on the East Asian Cyberpunk material. If anything I see more East Asian appreciation than orientalism in any of these movies.
yeah its not that deep.
The funny thing about the og ghost in the shell movie is that there's ton of Chinese motifs and language used in big companies in it. You'll occasionally see an anxiety over future Chinese dominance in Japanese media while US m dia gas anxiety over Japan.
More than "out of the fears of", early Cyberpunk has its roots in classic dystopic novels and noir as a style.
I mean, Neuromancer entire opening sequence is a dude being wasted before being recruited for a job that might change his life or just get him dead.
That's like noir 101. The only difference is that the lady doesn't have a femme fatale cute dres but shades attached to her face and razor-nails installed on her and that the topic is scifi
I mean, it's enough to move to New Rose Hotel to see a much larger focus on the corporate influence over society, compared to Neuromancer being more focused on the life of the people outside the system and how much the world is generally fucked at various levels but isn't really that different from the past.
east asia didn't have "unbelievable advanced technology" in the 70s and 80s and nobody thought so either. wth??you're just wrong. japan to this day is still pretty backwards in terms of technology, they still use fax machines. korea and china got advanced pretty recently, korea probably seems a lot more advanced because it's so much smaller but it was pretty ghetto in the 80s.
Japan is one of the main producers of cyberpunk and is incredibly influential on its themes and aesthetic. You don’t even mention this. Generally it isn’t asia, it’s Japan. Japan has an interesting relationship to technology and is really THE society closest to embodying cyberpunk.
What are you even talking about? Name five iconic cyberpunk series originated in Japan from the 20th century, which was the hay days of cyberpunk, other than Ghost in the Shell. Cyberpunk is not general science fiction. Cyberpunk is a distincly American genre distilled from the 80s fear of America losing dominance in the world to Japan. Think the death of Vincent Chin, who was a Chinese American killed by American autoworkers because they thought he was Japanese. The works that came from Japan were already well into the 21st century after the genre's peak, where they're just following the inspirations left by American creators.
@@teasea546 1-Akira 2-Tetsuo: The Iron man 3-Neo Tokyo 4- Genocyber 5- Ad Police. IT did originate in america particularly with Philip K Dick who i read constantly but its heavily influenced by japan, i didnt say it originated in japan you fucking dumb fuck. Fuck yourself ;)
@@teasea546 I don't even need to name 5, I'll name ONE high influential Japanese cyberpunk piece of media.
Akira, you moron. If you're too young to understand why that movie was so culturally relevant (or as old as me but want to play contrairian because "RACISM BAD!!! I HAVE NO OTHER ARGUMENTS!!!!"), then go watch some shit 10 hour youtube essay on it. Akira practically defined the cyberpunk movement.
You also have Lain. but without Akira, the modern Cyberpunk foundation would look wildly different.
tl;dr shut the fuck up, and stay out of topics that you don't know.
@@teasea546 Ergo proxy, Ghost in the shell, Pyscho-Pass, Akira, Texhnolyze, Cyber city Odeo 808, Neo Tokyo, No guns life, Angel cop, Battle angel, Megazone 23, Bubblegum crisis, Midnight eye Gokuu, Appleseed, Cybernetic guardian, Genocyber and etc. those are all anime and not even getting into the shit ton of cyberpunk Videogames and Manga.
@@teasea546 cyberpunk is most definitely not just a distinctly American Genre it’s been a cultural mix between Japan and America since the 80s-90s
always love a good dissection!! (How did I miss seeing Big Hero 6?!)
it's a sweet movie, def check it out
It’s because Japan is the closest thing we currently have to cyberpunk. People working LONG hours with falling birthrates, cybercafes with cubicle sleeping quarters, coffin apartments, everyone is lonely and depressed, and everything is high tech.
Japan is not as high tech society as you may think.
Japan was late to smartphone evolution, for example.
@@davidjacobs8558 The phrase is "Japan has been stuck in the 2000s since the 1980s." They were initially very technologically advanced in the 1980s, but other countries began to catch up in the 2000s, and now they are considered to be behind in some ways.
Kanji looks cool in neon. Simple as that.
the same can be said about latin/hispanic, Hattian, in the apocalyptic take on the post cyberpunk influence. its an observation of persistence of immigration in the world as a whole. its still a very well put essay.
Have you ever seen the state of Haiti? The gangs are running most of the country by now.
In addition to Big Hero 6, Matrix: Reloaded is another movie I would commend for not resorting to techno-Orientalism. Ghost, Seraph, and the Keymaker were all prominent Asian characters while the soulless robotic characters were the Agent Smiths. One could make the case that the Oracle was a Magical Negro, however.
Really? "depicted as Over sexualised"? have your heard about a thing called Anime and Manga?
Thank you for making this video, I really liked how this video put many of my thoughts into words for me. I'm Chinese-Japanese and I've always felt uncomfortable seeing non-Asian media depict orientalism and techno-orientalism for the very reasons you describe in this video. In many ways, it certainly felt dehumanizing and I think some of the ideas presented in orientalism and techno-orientalism reflects and shapes the perceptions of some Westerners when they talk about Asia and Asian people, at least from my own experience living in different Asian countries.
You have a liteal Year Hare Affair pfp, a Chinese "anime" that is borderline state propaganda, and is dedicated to radicalizing Chinese youths towards the interests of the state, that being ultranationalist militarism against opponents of the Chinese nation covered by a veneer of "moe", and portraying other countries, even allies of china as racist stereotypes based on Chinese racial slurs and twisting (or leaving out) historical facts to promote Chinese "supremacy".
My point being, even if the accusations are indeed 100% correct, you have no real ground to stand on to act like it's purely a western thing when it's clear your words are overshadowed by sheer hypocrisy.
@@ADHDisYippeeeeeeeeee fantastic point. These people love to cry they are being discriminated against, and yet themselves take part in the same discriminatory behaviour against others. Their problem with racism is how it affects them personally / sectionally; not that it's just bad in and of itself
There's so much cherry picking and confirmation bias here. Many of the points can just be portrayed as positive instead of negative.
It's a crime this doesn't have more views, so eye opening. Glad I will not be able to unsee this in stuff moving forward.
it isn't eye-opening, it's lazy analysis that doesn't stack up, as others have pointed out in comments here. You should unsee it, because it's a lazy attempt to shoehorn everything into a specific interpretation (all Western culture is racist), when in fact reality is far more complex
I quote from another comment in here -- "I do find it funny that the moment you say the asian characters are sexualized and then say that they exist to serve the white protagonist, you show a love death and robots clip that's literally of a fox spirit (who is being sexually harrassed by the white villains of the story) which mythology describes as attractive, and in that same short from love death and robots the main characters are both asian while the bad guys are white colonialists??? Not the best example lmao"
@@seadkolasinac7220 very true, im half chinese half malaysian and i find her points to be exaggerated. She is probably overseas asian. We don't care much about these things.
6:20 Why do you say 'exists entirely to serve the domestic & sexual desires of a white guy' when she was serving Oscar Isaac?
(Oscar Isaac is Guatemalan)
White people can be Latino too😭
This is so interesting to watch as someone who lives in China and has visited HK many times. I've also been to Seoul, Shanghai, Taipei etc, and the architecture and density of these cities do make you feel like you're in a cyberpunk movie BUT, without the creepiness and dystopian feel that western directors ad to their movies.
Probably because you are simply visiting and not seeing what's hiding under the surface
@@VixxKong2 I've been living in China for more than a decade. Believe me, is not the dystopian world Hollywood wants to portray.
The future is linked with dystopia. Western writers add dystopia elements to futuristic stories that aren't cyberpunk, too. What the woman in the video is doing is attempting to find racism where there is little to none. The real reason there aren't many East Asians in Blade Runner is because America is primarily white, not East Asian. There are real issues in Hollywood and the world, yet people like her instead try to find ways to victimize themselves for little reason.
@@VixxKong2
Everything is creepy once you looked under their surface. So why not appreciate the beauty.
8:40 Didn't 2017 Ghost in the Shell have cyberpunk themes through the eyes of an actual Japanese protagonist because an Asian boy was implanted into a robot body during a childhood accident?
Like if you want to say a Caucasian actress was portraying an Asian character that would be far more accurate than ignoring the storyline of the film which would be ironic since you use Asian people being ignored as a critique of the style..
I often think of Back to the Future Part 2 where Marty’s boss is Japanese and fires him. There’s also the comment in part 1 where doc disparages parts made in Japan and Marty comments that all the best stuff is made in Japan in the 80s.
These video essays of yours are well made. Please don't stop uploading.
Looks like the whole video is a woke-ivied version of what Cyberpunk is. The cyberpunk genre is something embraced and pushed forward by Asians (mostly Japan) themselves. So dumping in racism into the mix is a little silly. The whole point of its depiction is showcasing the result of when indiscriminate augmentation of humans with machines/robotic/Bionics and AI takes place.
It shows what happens when there's literally no stopping corporate greed that gains wealth by flooding the world with artificial alternatives while over consuming and polluting everything that's natural.
Visually its mostly depicted by dense amounts of neon in overly crowded areas as its aesthetic comes (that we see in modern times) comes from the Tokyo(Shibuya) of the 80s and 90s along with the brilliant Anime pieces like Ghost in the Shell that made their way into the west during the same time. Either which originate from East Asian itself and are not Western depictions of Asians at all.
While in earlier depictions, East Asians were shown in particular stereotype , this exact case could have been reversed with the depiction of the west by Asians as well. This stemmed from a pretty simple reason of either culture not knowing much about the other. Regardless, it's just a minuscule percentage of what the Cyberpunk genre actually is.
facts bruh, this video is lowkey racist to white people sometimes 💀
What the hell are you talking about? Cyberpunk as a genre started in the US in the 80s with Neuromancer and Bladerunner. It has always been a genre that was critical of Japanese corporate assimilation of the US. Hell, just look at Cyberpunk 2077 and why Saburo Arasaka does the things he does.
@@ruedelta "It has always been" yeah nice one retard
I hate when kids write video essays missing critical parts of the history because they cannot research the full context of the time period.
?
Could you elaborate on what exactly they left out?
Even in mass effect, the Asian villain character is a stereotypical ninja with accented English. The stereotype runs deep.
i always took the message as how a lot of asian culture has started incorporating into american culture and that these movies were showing the result of our cultures merging together. in blade runner, even though there were signs in japanese on the buildings some of the buildings were still prominent with architecture you would see in america. i feel it's also important to point out how, tyrell, the man at the company responsible for the replicants was portrayed by an american actor, so it all still felt like "american capitalism" to me but that america just had much more influence from the rest of the world.
thanks for making this video though as it's nice to re-analyze it from a different perspective
it would be interesting to compare what you've described here with the original cyberpunk tropes in earlier Japanese films and animation - for example, which of the original visual signifiers are repeated in the later Western films, which are discarded, and which are adapted? also, would be great to find some interviews with the directors and set designers of both the originals and the homages and ask what the creators thought their intent was.
I definitely associate Japanese manga and the language itself with Cyberpunk aesthetics. The first images that come to mind are neon hiragana letters and electronics advertisements that you can find all throughout Shibuya and Shinjuku.
weeb
and we (the Japanese) have low tech hanko stamps and fax machines😂 thanks for cyberpunk stereotypes, from sinking ship nowadays!
@@TommyTako Most of it comes from before the stagflation of the 90s. Relax, we are joining you now.
Racist and a weeb.
Okay but the ghost in the shell live action mc IS an asian mc, they are an asian person who died and was put into the shell (robot form) that looked white, they are an asian character, but there is a theme of disconnect from your body to how you look via the shell, it's only like, one of the largest themes of the series.
I want to hear your thoughts on how the Cyberpunk game portrays this subject. Lucyna from Cyberpunk Edgerunners is Japanese. Goro Takemura is a character I respect a lot. He had a rough life and Arasaka saved him from it. Gave him access to education and a decent life. So he is forever grateful to the corps for it. He can be seen as a complete opposite of Johnny Silverhand's personality, which hated the exploitation of the corporations and his personality can be described as pure chaos. Both Goro and Johnny make completely decent arguments for their own views.
In Cyberpunk 2077 I never saw any of the characters as a stereotype. Each one of them is a piece on this story moving forward with their own beliefs and actions. What are your thoughts on it?
Tbh goro was like a stereotypical samurai. His voice and manners is what westerns imagine samurai to be like even though it’s far from truth
@@localmilfchaser6938 I'm not sure about that. Samurai are born in that class. Goro is more of a child soldier actually. He is a high ranking corporate, so he is polite as expected from his role.
I would say that Saburo Arasaka is definitely a stereotype of the ancient Shogun archetype. But I'm not so sure about Goro. He feels more to me like intended to be a comparison with Johnny Silverhand.
The theme of the game, as mentioned by Dexter De'shawn, is "Quiet life or blaze of glory?" . Do we choose to live a short meaningful life, or a long one, beneath those that are larger than you?
Johnny Silverhand took the blaze of glory option. Goro Takemura picked the "quiet life". Both of the questlines are related to this subject as well.
@@localmilfchaser6938 If you talk to Takamura more, it's actually pretty clear that the Arasaka specifically use a type of historical revisionism and fake samurai culture to instill false senses of duty, loyalty, sacrifice, etc. to their soldier class, as they are primarily sourced from the destitute underclass in Japan. It's not "a western imagined samurai", it's a fake samurai culture being used to undermine any chance of rebellion.
You can't really talk about Cyberpunk 2077 without talking about Cyberpunk 20XX (the tabletop RPG by Pondsmith), and at that point it becomes clear that the setting is packed full of awful stereotypes. Saburo Arasaka acting purely out of a desire for revenge that Imperial Japan was defeated is really some stupid American fantasy. And any revival of bushido or samurai spirit that does not align with Imperial Japan is one devoid of any recognition of the realities of Japan in the post-war period, so this supposed "fake samurai culture" that he whipped up just seems awfully forced. How is Pondsmith even going to explain the 1955 System and its proponents in the LDP? He doesn't, he just ignores reality and supplants his own because he was likely ignorant of Japan's reality.
CP2077 tries to stay away from these things but it underpins the verisimilitude of the setting. Start questioning why Arasaka even exists and the wallpaper starts peeling.
@@ruedelta Good point. I didn't know about that.
Sideeying Firefly which despite being so much fun and diverse in some ways really played into this
bro it's not fear. it just looks cool and different from what we had in the US.
This argument is confused, conflating imperialism with multiculturalism and racism. Orientalism is a real thing, she does a poor job explaining how including these aspects may be damaging, as opposed mere representation.
I don't understand the dislikes, are white people somehow offended?
When are they not
Nothing's that rated-"R" can shape our thought, since It's for the adult, whose thought are already shaped.
Cyberpunk, or "Techno-Orientalism" as you call it, has been one of my favorite genres for a while. It has never once made me view East Asian culture in a negative light. I can't speak for others, but all it's done has given me a deeper respect, interest, and appreciation for the real people and cultures that these fictional stories take influence from. I don't think I would have ever spent the time and money to travel to Asia or start learning Japanese if fiction like Blade Runner, Neuromancer, or Cyberpunk 2020 didn't exist.
There are two types of orientalism.
The first is when a westerner depicts the orient as a place that isn't.
The second is when a westerner takes fiction as "accurate" representation, then makes equally bad assumptions on that fiction.
@@GameFuMaster problem is that western stereotype of orientalism is generally true so this whole video is pointless. "Westerners accurately described Asia and that is bad!!!"
It doesn't matter how you think, what matters is the thoughts and goals of the creator. Most cyberpunk medias portrays asian people as dangerous
@@KolyaUrtz no it's not, shut the fuck u0
@@nylon1458 what do you think inspiration for these dystopian places is? CHINA!... considering this how are they racist or wrong?
Great video, I just learned orientalism in my Global War on Terror class
Man, it's not that deep. Cyberpunk is Japanese-influenced because of Bladerunner, which came out in the 80s, a time when Japan was in economic ascendancy and it was feared that they might displace America at the top of the economic food chain and buy up everything. That turned out to be a bubble, but it influenced near future scifi of the time. Since Bladerunner had an "LA bought out by Japan" visual aesthetic, blending the architecture of the US with that of Tokyo, most "cyberpunk" works just copy from that template, simple as that, just as "steampunk" is often Jules Verne's Victorian London, even though there is nothing inherently "London" about steam tech. Also, Ghost in the Shell came around in the early 2000s, and crafted a hugely influential high tech Tokyo, that like Blade Runner, inspired a ton of copycats. And as for "servant robots," or whatever, there is some influence to the myths of "geisha culture" involved, but for the most part, "roboticised humanioids" come in all shapes and sizes, crafted by all sorts of cultures, there is nothing specifically "Asian" about them.
There's nothing "sinister" about "techno Orientalism" or non-Asian artists using Asian themes in their work. It's silly to portray it in minor chords. Asian creators do exactly the same thing, crafting works around alternate past/future European settings, or completely fictional "Europe-esc" settings, and they are no more accurate or "culturally sensitive" than the western works you cited. There is nothing wrong with one culture being inspired by aspects that interest them of another. We should cherish this as part of the way human cultures develop and spread, not demonizing it.
Mimicry is the greatest form of flattery. Like why would you not want your culture to be influential.
that's not what she said though?
She was talking about appropriateing Asian culture in a few parts. We supposed to blend cultures.
Good video! I think one thing not touched on is the fact that people love and would want to live in these worlds despite the fact that the stories surrounding them should push you away from wanting to live there.
Side note, I really enjoy cultures adopting aspects of other cultures, it's what makes life so great!
The masculine urge to live in the bullet train world
A few comments. Firstly, using Ghost in the Shell as an example of "Orientalism" is disingenuous, it's a Japanese series, if there are any issues with Orientalism in it then the Japanese did it themselves. The 2017 movies was still based on the original and did little to change to change the core themes.
Secondly I don't agree with this idea that it portrays Asian cultures as lacking humanity. It portrays humanity as lacking humanity. The idea is that humanity has gone so far into technology that parts of the flesh and mind are being cast aside for the new tech. That's the basic theme, it has nothing to do with Asia.
Where the Asian influence comes in is the aesthetic. The thing you have to take into account is that cyberpunk as a genre is not new, it's born out of the electronics boom in the 80s and 90s which itself was heavily based in Japan and Hong Kong. The neon aesthetic specifically comes from Hong Kong and Akihabara (the "Electric city") in Tokyo. This is why there is so much Asian influence, because people in the 70s-90s thought the future of technology would be coming from Asia, not the west. Also, after the core ideas of Cyberpunk were laid out by western authors, Asian authors and creatives continued on the genre and brought it to the form it is today. Series like Ghost in the Shell, Alita Battle Angel, Bubblegum Crisis, and Akira further refined the formula and increased the popularity of the genre, all adding the influence of their (Japanese) creators.
Like you're argument rests on the idea that cyberpunk is a western view of a future Asian culture, but it's as much an Asian genre as it is western. I've also never really seen this idea of Asian companies being more dangerous than western ones, do you have an example? Like Blade Runner's core theme is the issue around humanity and replicants, which are not created by an Asian country. Dread is about the corruption of justice. Altered Carbon features an Asian protagonist, and is mostly centered on questioning what life truly is and whether extending it cheapens it. None of these have any focus on the Asian invasion, for lack of a better term.
what sucks about this idea is that due to cultural diffrences asia can look cold and unfealing due to the high pressure many east asian countries face to be the top of everything giving us sometimes an emotionless view to outsiders and even within our borders.
Maybe you should actually study these cultures
@@joriankell1983 ypu did not read but thats okay if english is not your first language
@@dotdotdotdotdotdotdottod I did read it and you don't make any sense. What do you mean by pressure to be on top of everything? It's nonsense. English is obviously not your first language
@@joriankell1983 we yea bevausenim from asia 💀 so with that read it onemore time and make the sense
Not to mention the totalitarianism of Legalism and Confucianism that perpetuates the Sinosphere.
Honestly as someone from the "Techno-Orientalism" heritage, I don't find most of the Western perspective to be of demeaning, dehumanizing, or whatever. Most of it is respectful. Some of it is stereotypical, but I've also seen many stereotypes that the West portrays in the "Orient". No, I don't find the word Orient demeaning as it's a Latin word and its counterpart is "Occidental" which means West. I certainly don't speak for the confused "born in America" Asians or Eurasians of the West who rely too much on Western Woke culture and believe they're White or White adjacent, but I can say with all honesty that from Eurasia to the Far East, as a people we are very confident about our long history and we know who we are. It's hilarious to me, when some random Western Whites and others speak for me and try to say what I should be offended by whatever they deem "racist". That's a very cultural imperialistic view and I think their views are complete BS.
the dehumanization of Asian people in dystopian setting is due to over population and over competition. its a trait of hyper capitalism not Asian orientation.
I'd lean more towards "appreciation". The whole sub-genre was created because of the rapid rise of Japan and their electronic industry. Japan in the 80s was seen as the country to eclipse the U.S. due to their rapid technological advancement and urban development, highlighted in film by the dense urban skytowers and overpopulation more common in Asian countries compared to the West. "Asia" more specifically India and China have always been seen as sleeping giants due to their populations being massive pools of Labor - A notable tool for industrialist and corporate greed . Napoleon even made remarks about China as a dormant power in a famous quote. I would not come to the conclusion that cyberpunk is a result of "fearing Asia" but more so a reality of the times when the genre was created. A rising Japan with the potential to culturally become globally dominant in the same way American culture dominated post ww2 and into the late 90s.
Excellent work! Also, yeah I never realized the connection to Asian-owned companies being antagonistic as a stand-in for anti-asian sentiment, or the representation of asian peoples as simultaneously sexualized and robotic, feared and subservient.
thanks, glad it was interesting!
idk. we never saw it that way at the time
It's good that you keep reminding your viewers that you're talking specifically about East Asia.
yeah like asia is a big continent i dont like when people say asia an avoid the fact that its not only japan china and both koreas
@@Jimmyneutron19988 Exactly my thoughts.
The American fear of Asia was Japan in the 1980s and now it's China. So East Asia is pretty accurate.
Great video essay, I'd recently delved into cyberpunk and was confused about the hardcore east Asian influences, so this really cleared up a lot of questions as well as pointed out some source material I could go to, thank you so much for this very informative video essay
Thanks so much!
@@MaiaCVideos just being critical here
Ur video ending felt so small minded and biased in a way
U have to understand the heart of humanity is never evil it is always good the way it is going is always towards improving and progressing
Bias and evilness exist in some institutions and people heart with time thjngs shall end even within some people
As a south asian I can say this to u
East asian representation in movies are a must if u made a Hollywood these days also the kpop anime video game industry is booming across the world if anybody who can claim their culture architecture social values is wrongly depicted if they r even depicted like once in a few 1000 films its south asian but I dot complain about that small mindedness with time this too shall pass I think softpower perception of society changes with time 300 years ago everyone wanted to go to south asia establishing all European trading companies and settling in coastal colonies ,now everyone wants to get out of south asia to rest of world
So with time that too shall change backward
Everyone always feels it is us who is suppressed only us face discrimination to this level but u have to realize u have atleast a voice to represent in each film game etc while the pop culture produced in south asia is not even allowed to influence in rest of world bcs of nationalism and institutional frame work but with time their heart will also melt which we r seeing recently
It is not a common society problem it's an institutional problem
Another reason for Cyberpunk having Japanese influences is that Japan developed it's own cyberpunk films and media around the same time it ramped up in America with things like Akira, so while some of it is definitely orientalism, there's also a lot of creative cross pollination. The Matrix for example was heavily influenced by Ghost in the Shell, Akira, and obviously Kung-Fu movies.
lol this video is full of shit, don’t believe everything you see on the internet
i really thankful you put every title of the clip on the video. THANKS!
What about all those Japanese manga and anime that fetishize white characters? Naruto and Sailor Moon both have blue eyes and blonde hair like a stereotypical caricature of a European despite their Japanese names. Goku's hair literally turns blonde when he goes Super Saiyan. Also, Lolita fashion takes traditional Victorian fashion and turns it into something simultaneously sexy and infantile (kawaii). Additionally, what about all the Japanese anime/pron that has girls dressed in serafuku, which is inspired by European/American navy sailor uniforms? Finally, the B-stylers and Kpop groups who braid their hair, tan their skin, and basically dress in black face while rapping, singing RnB, and breakdancing. It seems to me that fetishization and objectification goes both ways, whether occidental or oriental.
Brotha you know it I watch a lot of anime, especially those set in japan. And i have been wondering why so characters are blonde with blue eyes just basically north European looking.
But with Japanese names back in the day I used to think anime was created by white people, when I found it it was from Japan I was surprised, why they never make characters with oriental features.
They simp hard for white people especially blond white women with blue eyes, so much anime with an MC blonde hair blue eyes looking white woman.
But any time white people do animation and have east Asian characters with oriental features they get mad, and call them ugly they did it with a game mirrors edge.
Don't forget, their fantasy isekai animes are mostly germanic inspired.
But seeing this comment, at this point. I dont know what even is fetishization and objectification. It sounds like everything is now.
Japanese are white worshippers…
The progressivism in this video is funny to anyone who knows that Asian cyberpunk stories do the same with "Techno-Westernism".
Make a video then explaining it. Like to see the research you put into it
I always had the impression that its an exaggerated vision of an already technologically advanced culture, done mostly by that culture and then adapted by the west because its so fun and cool. Alita battle angel, ghost in the shell, even the mech-suit genre is all part of the easts own sci-fy genre. And if the west is inspired enough by the success and makes a so-so adaptation or derivative work Is it really about Hollywood fearing Asia, or loving it? I could definitely be wrong but I always adored the cyberpunk genre and still do, and never got a bad, hateful, or fearful of Asia vibe. I always saw it as envy if anything, you could barely get away with doing stories that cool and visually stunning about the west. Americas cities are often just rows of concrete fast food restaurants, not a great setting for beautiful neon colors and clean glossy buildings. And our culture is so mixed as to not have as distinct of an aesthetic. The tech is usually saving the world somehow, or if its bad then its closer to morally gray. Big hero six, while a superhero film is clearly inspired by eastern takes on sci-fy and heroes, is it fearful? Also another thing to point out is that sometimes it can actually be a really good literally tool to take something from another culture when making something for your own culture to emphasize the difference between now and then in a futuristic work. It makes it seem more unfamiliar while also being a realistic representation of how cultures are shared over time! It takes advantage of feeling culture shock, which in itself isnt a bad thing. All we can hope for is that the cultural images and ideas used will be accurate and respectful! You have some really good points but I think that generally speaking the artistic decisions seen in the so-so, western, asian inspired science fiction films are done purely because they think that Asia is really cool, as Hollywood continues to be inspired by the success of anime and manga I hope they try to do better lol
I noticed a lot of issues with the various analogies and takes in the video, and like your mention of Big Hero 6 - my immediate reaction was not "oh the Asians took over/displaced/white flight from San Fran", but that "oh is this a world where the Japanese Internments and displacement never took place, allowing the Chinese and Japanese districts to continue flourishing until they became the natural aesthetic for the city?"
Major Motoko Kusanagi of the original Ghost in the Shell film isn't necessarily Japanese, despite her name. She knows almost nothing of her past for sure, since she is a near-total cyborg and the technology exists to hack and fabricate memories. Her skin, hair and eyes are entirely synthetic. She therefore has no idea what race or background she really has. The Major's alienation because of her mistrust of her own memories plays a major role in the plot of the film. The Major actually has synthetic blue eyes in the film, and a (synthetic) appearance which, like many anime characters, can be interpreted ambiguously as either Japanese or European. She says that she can't remember her real name, except that it isn't Motoko Kusanagi. The film and show don't answer whether or not she was originally Japanese, and she has no idea.