As a hospice chaplain, I find it interesting that many of my patients have little connection to their pastors when they get to that season of the life journey. Our culture, especially church culture, has focused on young families to the degree that those who are who are not in that demographic get so little from the church family.
Yes! I don’t have kids or a husband and it’s like my only job is supposed to be throwing/attending showers for moms & newly weds and watching kids in the nursery so moms can attend church events. I did it for a long time and then just couldn’t anymore.
As a woman and a political lefty and a devoted follower of Jesus, I have been often been viewed as a threat. I am not a leader in any church structure, but even in a Bible study, I am viewed with suspicion and open hostility among politically conservative fellow believers. I am not theologically liberal or untra conservative. I simply look at the teachings of Christ and let that inform my beliefs and attitudes. Please differentiate between political and theological liberalism or conservatism. I'm just trying to live out my faith as true to the gospel of Jesus as I understand the scriptures. One of the most significant Bible teachers in my walk with Jesus was a woman who was called as teacher by God. She was instrumental to the stability of my faith through out the 52 years I've walked with Christ. This whole hullaboo about women in leadership reminds me of the old arguments among theologians in the Middle Ages about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
What do you mean? Someone can be saved and have political beliefs that are contrary to obedience to God, it's not like we have the gospel, and everything else is a buffet
@@christianchin-ups the main villains in the gospels are the oppressive religious authorities, right? Who plays that role in a Christian society? Or maybe Rome was the big enemy, at least until it appropriated Christianity. Who is Rome in the modern world, if not the Christian-dominated US and Europe?
Sometimes, it's almost like the evangelicals are glossing over the real reasons why people are leaving the church or avoiding religious institutions despite being worried about death. At work the other day, a conversation broke began about how many of my coworkers (and myself) had dealt with religious trauma. Speaking for myself, it was a highly focused form of spiritual abuse with sexual assault on the side at my evangelical baptist school, that caused my breakdown... and I'm not talking about the assault itself, but how it was handled (by parents, principal, teachers and youth pastoe). It always seems like people within the evangelical church or at least evangelical adjacent want to gloss over all the damage the church has done. Yes, they acknowledge it in an abstract way, but when it becomes more real (i.e. someome they know was either abused, did the abusing or both) then the conversation changes. There are millions of people who have been hurt by the church, but the church doesn't know how to handle it, sooooo they don't.
This! They always say "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater", but then the "bathwater" is SA and the systemic coverups that enable it. The model of Matthew 18 is entirely inappropriate for dealing with this, and the problem is only exacerbated by the Bible's glaring acceptance of SA.
@aosidh yeah, but it goes way beyond SA... which is even worse. Soooo, when people gather at Death Cafes to discuss death, feeling emotionally or politically homeless, and things of that ilk, evangelicals, and, specifically, those here at the holy post should not be suprised that people don't WANT to go back to the church. They've already been hurt too much. I would NEVER want to go back to a church with leadership like my youth pastor that would just laugh in my face when I tell him something so humiliating and painful. Is there any indication that the church has actually made meaningful change in these areas? So far, the answer is no. I mean, a pastor at a megachuch just resigned this week after an inappropriate relationship with a young girl became public. The evangelical church needs to stop downplaying these situations. If they really wanted to become a beacon for the spiritually homeless, they need to actually address the amount of BS going on behind closed doors instead of wringing their hands when something becomes public and then quietly hope that it all blows over and we as a society forget about it.
It's ridiculous too because all this glossing over and sweeping under the rug just makes them appear as incredibly dishonest, unsafe, and hypocritical organizations in the eyes of everyone. However, imagine if these churches had a zero tolerance policy for sexual assault and dealt with it openly and swiftly in such away that people weren't going to get away with it. The damage would be far less. No one guilty of any sexual misconduct has any business having any sort of leadership role in a church.
@nicholasbeck2649 Anyone with a history of sexual assault shouldn't be in a leadership position anywhere. Predators go where prey is easy to find, which includes churches, schools, and the sets of kids tv shows. I feel like it's about pointing at everyone else to distract from what's going on behind close doors. People feel spiritually homeless because we've been seeing how nasty every community seems to be
It's because they don't know scripture and when confronted with it, refuse to apply it. I've been in evangelical churches for 51 years and never once have I heard a sermon on 1 Corinthians 5: 9-12 which specifically address sexual sin in the church and how the church is commanded to respond to it. Never once have heard a church apply in explicitly in real life. It's right there in black and white.
Loved so much about this episode but wanted to point out that the people who advocate for "abortion through birth" overwhelmingly don't mean that someone who carries a baby and changes their mind at week 38 can just go in and terminate. Late-term abortions are statistically due to the fetus not having a brain, or lungs, or other vital organs that will make their life not viable. These are tragic and sad losses, BUT they need to exist because someone shouldn't have to carry a baby to term only to have it die in their arms if they don't want to do that. Please can we not act like doctors are murdering children as they exit from the womb in an otherwise normal delivery?
My POV: It's better for the baby to pass in loving arms than per the tools of an abortionist. And remember- miracles happen. How many times has God swooped in & changed things 180 when you were beyond the tips of your fingernails? It's bn many times for me. Did you know Tim Tebo was fully, 100% expected to die in his mother's womb? (The football player) His mom believed God instead of the inarguable consensus. It's highly unusual but it happens.
The most important theological argument regarding abortion is “Where do the souls of babies who die go?” It is an essential pastoral question to understand for miscarriages as well as abortion. Many Evangelicals believe that God does not send to Hell those who had no ability to know or believe the gospel. Thus, the moral concern should be those who have understanding and are lost, not those whom God graciously will care for. This is the topic the Church has lost during the decades of culture wars.
Every abortion ban also degrades the quality of obstetric care for relatively uncomplicated pregnancies. The United States already has a criminally high rate of maternal mortality - you really don't need to make it higher to try to make Jesus happy
Yes, women who don't want to be mothers have abortions ASAP (first trimester or very early second trimester) instead of waiting until they're visibly pregnant to abort their babies. Women who don't want to have babies don't spend a long time pregnant-especially pregnant long enough for everyone to notice it and question what happened. That's why the vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester.
@@lisacrews3060 as a whole, though. We are not talking about the exception, but the rule. They only reason White people are arguing over abortion is that the Republicans did not want to go to school with Black children due to the Brown Vs The Board Of Education. The Christians won the Nixon election on abortion. Yet, Numbers Chapter 5, God gives Moses the rule to use a tincture on an unfaithful wife. If America truly cared about the unborn then we wouldn't have bombed the Middle East for 25 years. Both Biden and Trump would not be aiding Israel in the slaughter of innocent Palestinian women and children.
@@aosidh I don’t think I follow what you are saying…. Isn’t SBC a Protestant denomination that is going through some challenges right now? Westboro is a cult that hates God. ?
I don't believe it would be all that difficult to demonstrate that ordaining women skews theology. Not always in a leftward direction, mind you. But always away from Scripture. I am not sure that women teaching or women preaching does the same thing. That would be much more difficult to quantify. Besides, some women these days are holding the line far better than their male counterparts. We DO have slippage both to the left and to the right. We have failure of leadership on every side of every issue. Holy Post always skews too far to the left. McCaulley has a track record, and he clearly trends too far left, as well. On the other hand, he is quite lucid and more balanced than many on his side of things.
What if Paul wasn't the only word on Women preaching, but is just the only word we still have (Biblically speaking)? There were 12 apostles, after all, and almost none of their words and leadership in the ancient church has come down to us.
When I was a teenager in the mid 60s the pastor in the Presbyterian Church we attended began the reading of scripture in worship by saying "Listen FOR the word of God". Instinctually I knew what he meant, that the true Word of God was how He spoke to my heart as I heard the words. Sadly, no church I've been two in the last few decades takes that approach, which is largely why I stopped going. I now find other channels to hear God's word.
The name death Cafe sounds morbid, but what an amazing idea. I would go to one of those if they had one in my city. I lost my father a few months ago and I'm an only child. My pastor and church community were wonderful and I have a good group of friends. What is sad is that none of my friends or church community offered to visit my father when he was in the hospital and rehab. It's true that he was a introvert and hadn't been going to church for quite some time. But it's sad how elderly people are so readily forgotten
I’d love for you to examine some of those who are in the middle! The Cooperative Baptists in US seem to be doing it- the UK Baptists and even us Canadian Baptists! (Excited to have you join us in Banff this fall Skye!!)
I lost my mom November 8th. After getting healthy, my codependent wife freaked out and cheated on me a month earlier that led to our divorce a month ago. In terms of Church, we really do not know how to grieve and mourn with each other.
I've been raised Southern Baptist my entire life. My entire family but a few still are in various churches. I Switched to the non denominational Christian Church and live in Central KY near Lexington. I've never thought the main minister could be a woman. We didn't call those in charge of program' s like childrens ministry, pastors They were called Minister of Children's ministry. Overall.. apparently a lot is up to the church.. whom in 4 different churches in same county, was taught well but the largest one out of the blue, had a 1965 ordinance. It was actually actually an entire funny thing... Remember Beth Moore and she always was a women's teacher. If men come in and listen, as Christians there is noway we should turn them away. It is different in each church too. The woman pastor I saw too and in the largest city in Ky.. So there are absolutes, but I'm confused without reading the law and votes
Now I listened to what actually passed I think. So they cab be over things except main pastor but you can't call them Pastor's.. I'm sorry. Churches and the Southern Baptist in my area preach Jesus and Bible. But over a word pastor... As an educator again, surely it wasn't just a word? All Southern Baptist aren't that Idk a nice word for it.. Just low IQ? Not smart.. It is a word only. Not logical. Just hearing it makes me want to scream. Good grief ...They are more conservative.. I would say it is more south except in SC my sisiters large Baptist church aloud more than the one now. In my town, women aren't Pastors in more than Baptist churches. I think,Presbyterian and Methodist..IDK.. abiut the convention. Except the world missions of Lottie Moon.. and home missions too.. S Baptist all have a district association they can be involved with too. In my county it depends on where u live and my last church wasn't in the association before I came. I think I heard about the scripture about Men and women? Maybe the pastor women thing amd Mayne a gay pastor thing.. In days gone by.. I just go to hear about Jesus. We all have a false belief ,I DID TOO... that we think that de nomination preaches this or believes this or that.. Times have changed and people too. Nondenominational Christian church is growing the most in my state of Ky, when at sometime I still think they were a denominational church.. I laughing have stated it often.. It for them means , not in a convention. Ok. I just misunderstood the word. ### Caitlyn I know more about the lady and church and being respectful.. I won't comment anymore. It isn't about her or the church. I was honestly surprised at her age and claiming that she loved the Southern Baptist. She lived in a large town. I really knew they didn't allow the main pastor to be a women. My entire life. I pray they just pray and move on and be whom God called them to be.
@@patrickc3419@patrickc3419 @patrickc3419 do you know everything? Are you omniscient? Do you have a perfect understanding of God's Word? No? Then start acting like it.
@@patrickc3419 There is no such thing as @patrickc3419. It does not exist. An internet comments thread with @patrickc3419 is not an intelligent conversation between sane adults.
I don't know of any Southern Baptist church or have been a member of one that a women can be a deacon. I think THE ENTIRE QUALITIES OF A Deacon Paul does list and it is all about a man. Family of 1 wife.. and more.
Not just death we dont think about or remember to teach.../ we live our lives way too much like this is it and our short generation..WE TOTALLY FORGET scripture and the whole part that this workd now is not our home . we are just traveling, through and growing the Kingdom of God.i
1 Timothy 3 states that a man should be a deacon. And then all they must do as well as there wives. So idk any s Baptist churches that have deacons. Maybe? But it is in the Bible. So how they do Pprove of women deacons..idk..m >In Acts?
I've decided that the etiquette rules made years ago at social or diner events .. DO not talk about Relgion, politics or money We should have learned and maybe we would all get a long better. Lol
@ average - no the world I propose is much better just not for twisted devils . As a matter of fact the world I propose existed already and will exist again
Great to have Esau hosting!! Everyone but Phil: stop being prudish about news of the butt; why can't we mix the humor with the faith & academics? No one takes y'all less seriously because of it. Phil, it's hard to be the only artist in the bunch; keep up the funny news!
Also, how do you differentiate liberal vs. conservative as Christians? Are the main points those of the "culture wars", eg, prochoice, supporting accepting gays into the church, racial and gender equality? Any other commenters, please point me to the HP resources that have covered this already. If liberal means love everyone, forgive, accept, all as equals, all as the image of God, all as our brothers and sisters--well, Jesus was the first liberal. This doesn't mean there isn't great personal responsibility to choose ethics and morals that are biblical. For eg, liberal Christians don't support unbiblical morals, such as sexual promiscuity or breaking other commandments that indicate a lack of respect for our heritage as the image of God, or overlooking loving one another in all thoughts and actions. Jesus was pretty clear on the heart/body/spirit alignment & intentionality of all our thoughts and actions.
Phil.. THE POINT of Death I get. Too.. BUT an OVERWHELMINg message hit me. It has before. AlL THE TALK and arguments and confusing and Pastor word or not and all .. WE NEED To be sharing Jesus and the Good News to all. Our commission frim God..Really all that matters. But all of us has spent way too much time on this stiff. . IT IS IMPORTANT . BUT THE devil is having a field day
Probably late to the game with this question but for the SBC, how is Megan’s presentation not an example of a woman her teaching? Since they view 1Tim 2:12 as they do, doesn’t this violate their standard?
Esau, i grew up in an SBC church in Central Illinois in the 70's/80's. Deacons never preached. Since SBC churches are supposed to be independent i understand that other churches might have allowed that, but none that i was associated with or family attended would have allowed that.
Deacons are not expected to have to step up and preach. Elders are. This is what distinguishes, in a Bible preaching church, elders and deacons. Elders are the spiritual leaders. Deacons maintain the physical, financial, etc. upkeep of the local church.
Disliked the video, plenty of non sense said. Religious institutions should have defined doctrine. Religious institutions should educate members on the doctrine and expect members to adhere to the doctrine. This is a good thing and not “ideological purity”. What’s the point of having a church if you can disagree with all the teachings?
There's an asymmetry in churches when it comes to the place of more moderate or liberal believers in largely conservative spaces. Moderates and many liberals are happy to admit that a conservative position can be legitimately held, that was my position at least. This is because there is a sense of irony about my own beliefs. These questions are massive and I have no illusions that my position could possibly be THE fact of the matter. In my experience, this attitude itself, without even bringing up particular theological positions, is already threatening to many conservatives. My former pastor insisted that I had disagreements with god, and not his theological positions. He was just reporting the plain truth of a perspicuous Bible.
I resonate with this, as a moderate-to-liberal (politics & some theology) completely surrounded by conservative/neo-fundamentalist parishners/family etc. They will strenuously claim/believe/imply often that they are "Biblical" and everyone else is misreading things... but many don't seem able to contemplate that THEY might also be misreading as least some things! It's almost like they believe they're not as human as others...(ie prone to failing, limited view/understanding)
It’s possible he’s right. It really depends on the specific issue, I suppose anyone with any moral Delinquency could say their world view isn’t the problem , it’s the pastors theology. Perhaps it could go the other way around as well, maybe a pastor oversteps his interpretation on an unclear or grey matter not addressed in the scripture🤷♂️. Bottom line, we are very good as human beings at lying and justifying actions we may know or not know are morally unlawful
@@hgservices5572 So I think I can demonstrate my point right here in the comments. 1. I know of three models of hell. I have a preferred model because it makes the most sense to me, but I could be entirely wrong. Would you be content to let a universalist like me teach a Sunday school class at your church? What about lead a ministry team? 2. There are multiple atonement theories. Which is right? Or are they all wrong to some degree? I prefer the Christus Victor model over penal substitution or ransom, for example. Would you be content to let me lead a small group at your church? Perhaps share a message at a mens breakfast?
19:26 within Pentecostal Latino traditions it’s varied. The term Pastora which translated is Pastor, is in many instances given to the Pastors wife by default. I remember this issue coming up in the AIC about 18 years ago. But you would have to look up bylaws for AG Asamblea de Dios. AIC (Asamblea de Iglesias Cristiana) MI Iglesia de Dios Misión Internacional. Just to name a few. Call in Dr. Gabriel Salguero for one Latino perspective.
Amen... Scripture is alive and Active as a 2 edge sword. TAUGHT AS Baptist mean ,yes there are literal passages andd beliefs but it may come to u thru the Holy Spirit in a different message. Pray it and believe it!
This is such a timely topic. I note in the gospels that Jesus is realistic about the number (25%) who respond to the good news and who demonstrate fruitful lives and seems to be okay with that. (The parable of the 4 Soils). Jesus isn't concerned with the complex nature of the Kingdom this side of eternity (the Parable of the Good Wheat and the False Wheat). Jesus's main concern is that people follow him and actively respond to his directives, not theological purity (the parable of the wise and foolish builders). Jesus is more concerned with relational loyalty and a life of love, staying close to him guarantees a fruitful life that pleases the Father (John 15 - the True Vine and the branches). In Paul's epistles, it is much the same. Purity of life and love is more important that purity of doctrine. In fact, if one can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge but has no love, his knowledge is valueless. John agrees in 1st John: those who don't love their sisters and brothers in Christ don't know God at all. Jesus had stern words for Pharisees who strenuously pursued minutia while neglecting the "weightier matters" of mercy and justice.
Good morning from the beautiful SF Bay Area. Now listen back to this conversation and ask yourselves if you still wonder why people are fleeing the church. The slippery slope to liberalism? Climate denial? Women's rights? Has the church totally abandoned Jesus' teachings, the Golden Rule, the first two commandments that Jesus said encompassed all the law, and the Beatitudes? Many "liberals", God forbid, listen to debates like this and ask all of these questions. I think if Jesus were to return today the Radicalized Religious Right would string him up just like they wanted to with Mr. Pence.
To Skye's point around 1:28:00, I just finished "A Church Called Tov" by Scot McKnight who addresses the misdefinition of pastor from shepherd to "leader/visionary" etc. The focus shifts from helping all of the church community to grow in Christ-likeness, to producing some product.
Necessity is an exception to every rule. Even to the Law of God. Like when Yeshua allowed His disciples to harvest on the Sabbath. And when David ate the sacred bread. Because of hunger. Wisdom teaches us when necessity is necessary.
@@hgservices5572 What's necessary is for you to seek professional help in dealing with your psychosexual neuroses. Because you spend more time thinking about homosexuality than out of the closet homosexual people do. And it's not healthy.
6:28. With that kind of biotechnological research, we are one step closer to creating a literal Christian "think tank". 1:07:00. Everyone is at it again ruthlessly invested in washing only the outside of their bowls, leaving their insides unclean from indulging their greed and hatred.
In 1st Timothy, the author says you can't make commandments forbidding people from marrying. Then they claim women will be damned if they serve the church and then get married because they've "broken their first vow." 1st Timothy also blames Eve just like Adam did. There is so much blatant heresy in 1st Timothy it's not surprising that sexist churches cling to it to preserve power over women. 1st Timothy is as legitimate as the Gospel of Thomas. Christ is the head of the church and Christ called women.
@@patrickc3419so what Paul may or may not have said about qualifications in a particular time and place almost 2,000 years ago with completely different historical and cultural contexts should outweigh the life, teachings, words, and example of Jesus? Maybe if you would treat Jesus as the Son of God He is instead of as an afterthought, you could finally get on the right track.
I comment too much and any surveys...I always want to know in my head , who did u survey.. BUT YEAH ! Again for the in the 80's or mid 80's in S Baptist it was 40% to 40% Rep or Dem. I have stated many times that I never thought this way before the Trump stuff..or my parents / older adults in Obama years often stated weird stuff out of ...I had zero Idea where it was coming from FOX NEWS.. LOL
@@3eyedcyclops Correct, my words in and of themselves do not have authority (see Isaiah 2:22, as well as Psalm 146:3), as I am a mortal man; a sinner saved by God’s grace. The triune God alone has authority (see Matthew 28). Again, there is no such thing as a female pastor; the term is an oxymoron (see 1 Timothy 2:12-14, as well as Titus 1). Do with this information as you desire. Repent and believe the Gospel.
@@patrickc3419@patrickc3419 do you know everything? Are you omniscient? Do you have a perfect understanding of God's Word? No? Then start acting like it.
Thou shalt not #kill. (Exodus 20:13) / Thou shalt not [be complicit in #genocide]. More than 14,500 #children killed in #Gaza. The latest #death toll stands at 35,287 #Palestinians and 1,139 people killed in #Israel since October 7. (2024.05.07) 🛐☮❤✝
Let’s not forget here at home and abroad , millions of babies are killed willingly by their mothers , we live in an age where even our natural affections are tricked from us by the evil one in the name of convenience
1. Messaging - replacing the narrative of bodily autonomy with an emphasis on the sanctity of life 2. Laws- basic “carrots and sticks” Government promotes or discourages activity through laws and taxing/tax breaks 3. Optional Governmental temporary sterilization programs . This generally goes against my political tendencies and would no doubt have to be modified as population deficit would potentially create huge personnel and social program deficiencies but coupled with proper messaging this final option could become a rare option in the extreme.essentially If there are no pregnancies there are no babies to kill .
Sorry I tried four times in that thread to answer in varying ways and even to tell you simply that it’s moderator related I think and not YT related 🤷♂️ trying this route
Yes tax cuts. I am more art larger and you are more Bernie sanders . I do well for myself. I say tax cuts for everyone . Let the gov be a better steward of what they have and we will talk about giving more
Regarding character and policy Trump stating the obvious truth that wealth power and fame attract women is not his fault, it is almost as old as kingdoms . Ironic that he and his platform have become the champion of bringing some of those conservative values but it is what it is, art of the deal right?
@@hgservices5572any comments that are allowed in separate posts would be allowed in the original as well. If this was a Holy Post moderator and they wanted to censor you, they would've banned you entirely by now.
Governance over character is not foreign to the left either. Sam Harris seriously stated that he would vote Biden even if he had bodies buried in his basement . I suspect this is because of his policy. Or even what many voters call “ the lesser of two evils”. That “evil” is perceived by both sides on the opposite end .
sometimes I wonder if the intensity of the pushing on issues such as the place of women in the church isn't at least partially influenced by people pushing back against critical scholarship. If the scholars are saying "no that book wasn't actually written by Paul" people may respond by doubling down on applying what the book says to enforce that "yes it was". Obviously that's not the only factor, but I just wonder if it's one of them.
@ 3 eyes. I’m not trying to convince you that I AM worldly , but letting you know I WAS worldly and probably have gone and done further than you would care to dare my darling
@hgservices5572 Stop lying. If you were half as worldly as you want me to think you are, then you wouldn't be half as scared of the world as you cannot hide that you are. You are scared of the world. You are scared of everything in it that is unfamiliar to you. You are scared of the people you don't understand who are doing things you don't understand for reasons you don't understand. I know this because if you weren't, then you wouldn't be panicking about it all in this internet comments section.
At the risk of sounding like a paranoid wingnut, (& hope Im wrong but): I think this next election will put us on 1 of 2 trajectories: Either extreme liberalism/communism or Trumpian Dictatorship.
@hgservices5572 You're just lying. Everyone fears what they don't understand. You are not the exception to this rule. And you fear so much because you understand so little.
@@3eyedcyclopsI highly doubt hg is even having this issue in the first place. Probably just a juvenile way of trolling without having to debate, since they know they can't win one.
@@averageuser4367 As people, we tend to view the world as a scary place. So scary, in fact, that the most frightening thing in it is a different way of looking at it. Bigots like hg are often afraid that other people will see how afraid they are. Because they're ashamed of their fear. But don't let them fool you with a thin façade of false bravado. No one is as afraid as hg is of seeing the world from other people's perspectives without being afraid of the world itself.
Its not like the one passage that says women aren't to speak in church-which is probably a specific rule for that particular church. The many MANY verses & passages in the Bible (I just now ggld) that say women are not to be HEAD pastors &,are very clear. I dont love it either-but it is what it is what God commands. And it makes sense. It cant be that the wife is her husbands headship at church but it's the opposite at home. That does not even make sense. There's PLENTY of other headship positions for women in the church to fulfill their leadership calling- just not head pastor.
It’s funny listening these two talk about the southern Baptist Contention that is and will remain the largest while the denominations who have taken their advice dwindle like the view count on this channel
@robbower5489 It is said that one can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. But I find that what flies love most of all is a steaming pile of 💩like the SBC. Maybe popularity isn't a good indicator of quality?
@@robbower5489 What do you think it's a sign of? I think that, in the internet age, there will inevitably be a great deal of social atomization as people become more independently-minded. And my hope is that, in the longer term, people will follow their own individual paths toward enlightenment, before coming together again around truer Truths than the ones churches have long organized themselves around.
Righteousness will make you slide to the right while grace will make you slide to the left. Personally I prefer grace to Righteousness because I can live with God's grace but not with His Righteousness.
Calvinist churches do not have the market cornered on Conservative Christianity. There are protestant churches from the Wesleyan/Holiness/Pentecostal tradition who would put the Southern Baptists to shame with their Conservatism. And yet---many of the Pentecostal churches have had women in pastoral roles for decades.
@@patrickc3419@patrickc3419 do you really think that the people who disagree with you aren't familiar with 1 Timothy or Titus? Do you really think that there is no reasonable way that people could disagree with you? Yes, there was likely at least one female apostle: Junia.
@@averageuser4367 People should have the freedom to disagree until they’re blue in the face. It doesn’t matter what they think; it matters what God says.
True , I know of some Pentecostal holiness churches that allow women “teachers” and “preachers ” I think because they term them as “prophetess” which were referred to in scripture ala Acts21:9 etc
Not exactly. More like Numbers 5 commands forced sterilization of unfaithful wives. Either way, her bodily autonomy was hardly respected, nor was any potential offspring in her future.
@@troybody6662I don't claim to be an expert on ancient pregnancy tests. I'm just referring to what the Bible has to say. Numbers 5: 28 says that a woman who passes the test would be able to conceive. Ergo, she wasn't pregnant at the time.
@@troybody6662I could be mistaken. I'm just referring to what I believe the academic consensus to be. Regardless, the woman wouldn't have had agency in the event that such a process was carried out.
@ 3 eyes , sheltered ? 😂 you think I don’t know what’s out in the world do you and the internet is just now revealing it to me? Mam, the things I’ve done would make you blush , you’d also wonder how I’m still alive . I’m well aware of what is abound mam. I think you might be the one triggered about another viewpoint , there , here we are again , the world is a mirror . 🪞
As a hospice chaplain, I find it interesting that many of my patients have little connection to their pastors when they get to that season of the life journey. Our culture, especially church culture, has focused on young families to the degree that those who are who are not in that demographic get so little from the church family.
Yes! I don’t have kids or a husband and it’s like my only job is supposed to be throwing/attending showers for moms & newly weds and watching kids in the nursery so moms can attend church events. I did it for a long time and then just couldn’t anymore.
As a woman and a political lefty and a devoted follower of Jesus, I have been often been viewed as a threat. I am not a leader in any church structure, but even in a Bible study, I am viewed with suspicion and open hostility among politically conservative fellow believers. I am not theologically liberal or untra conservative. I simply look at the teachings of Christ and let that inform my beliefs and attitudes. Please differentiate between political and theological liberalism or conservatism. I'm just trying to live out my faith as true to the gospel of Jesus as I understand the scriptures. One of the most significant Bible teachers in my walk with Jesus was a woman who was called as teacher by God. She was instrumental to the stability of my faith through out the 52 years I've walked with Christ. This whole hullaboo about women in leadership reminds me of the old arguments among theologians in the Middle Ages about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Repent and believe the Gospel, Ma’am.
What do you mean? Someone can be saved and have political beliefs that are contrary to obedience to God, it's not like we have the gospel, and everything else is a buffet
This is the only Christianity that makes sense. Jesus absolutely didn't mean for you to recreate the same oppressive structures over and over again!
@@aosidh What do you mean?
@@christianchin-ups the main villains in the gospels are the oppressive religious authorities, right? Who plays that role in a Christian society?
Or maybe Rome was the big enemy, at least until it appropriated Christianity. Who is Rome in the modern world, if not the Christian-dominated US and Europe?
Comfort, connection, community? We offer all that, plus condemnation, all under one roof!
As Phil said, we could be helping people more.
Esau is terrific. Really enjoyed the conversation in the first part of the show. Thanks for the hopeful discussion!
Sometimes, it's almost like the evangelicals are glossing over the real reasons why people are leaving the church or avoiding religious institutions despite being worried about death. At work the other day, a conversation broke began about how many of my coworkers (and myself) had dealt with religious trauma. Speaking for myself, it was a highly focused form of spiritual abuse with sexual assault on the side at my evangelical baptist school, that caused my breakdown... and I'm not talking about the assault itself, but how it was handled (by parents, principal, teachers and youth pastoe). It always seems like people within the evangelical church or at least evangelical adjacent want to gloss over all the damage the church has done. Yes, they acknowledge it in an abstract way, but when it becomes more real (i.e. someome they know was either abused, did the abusing or both) then the conversation changes. There are millions of people who have been hurt by the church, but the church doesn't know how to handle it, sooooo they don't.
This! They always say "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater", but then the "bathwater" is SA and the systemic coverups that enable it.
The model of Matthew 18 is entirely inappropriate for dealing with this, and the problem is only exacerbated by the Bible's glaring acceptance of SA.
@aosidh yeah, but it goes way beyond SA... which is even worse. Soooo, when people gather at Death Cafes to discuss death, feeling emotionally or politically homeless, and things of that ilk, evangelicals, and, specifically, those here at the holy post should not be suprised that people don't WANT to go back to the church. They've already been hurt too much. I would NEVER want to go back to a church with leadership like my youth pastor that would just laugh in my face when I tell him something so humiliating and painful. Is there any indication that the church has actually made meaningful change in these areas? So far, the answer is no. I mean, a pastor at a megachuch just resigned this week after an inappropriate relationship with a young girl became public. The evangelical church needs to stop downplaying these situations. If they really wanted to become a beacon for the spiritually homeless, they need to actually address the amount of BS going on behind closed doors instead of wringing their hands when something becomes public and then quietly hope that it all blows over and we as a society forget about it.
It's ridiculous too because all this glossing over and sweeping under the rug just makes them appear as incredibly dishonest, unsafe, and hypocritical organizations in the eyes of everyone. However, imagine if these churches had a zero tolerance policy for sexual assault and dealt with it openly and swiftly in such away that people weren't going to get away with it. The damage would be far less. No one guilty of any sexual misconduct has any business having any sort of leadership role in a church.
@nicholasbeck2649 Anyone with a history of sexual assault shouldn't be in a leadership position anywhere. Predators go where prey is easy to find, which includes churches, schools, and the sets of kids tv shows. I feel like it's about pointing at everyone else to distract from what's going on behind close doors. People feel spiritually homeless because we've been seeing how nasty every community seems to be
It's because they don't know scripture and when confronted with it, refuse to apply it. I've been in evangelical churches for 51 years and never once have I heard a sermon on 1 Corinthians 5: 9-12 which specifically address sexual sin in the church and how the church is commanded to respond to it. Never once have heard a church apply in explicitly in real life. It's right there in black and white.
Yay!! I love it when Esau is back!
❤
It's early morning so the eyes havent switched on completely, I read, "Yay!! I love it when Esau is 'black'" thought that was a weird comment to make.
Loved so much about this episode but wanted to point out that the people who advocate for "abortion through birth" overwhelmingly don't mean that someone who carries a baby and changes their mind at week 38 can just go in and terminate. Late-term abortions are statistically due to the fetus not having a brain, or lungs, or other vital organs that will make their life not viable. These are tragic and sad losses, BUT they need to exist because someone shouldn't have to carry a baby to term only to have it die in their arms if they don't want to do that. Please can we not act like doctors are murdering children as they exit from the womb in an otherwise normal delivery?
My POV: It's better for the baby to pass in loving arms than per the tools of an abortionist. And remember- miracles happen. How many times has God swooped in & changed things 180 when you were beyond the tips of your fingernails? It's bn many times for me. Did you know Tim Tebo was fully, 100% expected to die in his mother's womb? (The football player) His mom believed God instead of the inarguable consensus. It's highly unusual but it happens.
The most important theological argument regarding abortion is “Where do the souls of babies who die go?” It is an essential pastoral question to understand for miscarriages as well as abortion. Many Evangelicals believe that God does not send to Hell those who had no ability to know or believe the gospel. Thus, the moral concern should be those who have understanding and are lost, not those whom God graciously will care for. This is the topic the Church has lost during the decades of culture wars.
Every abortion ban also degrades the quality of obstetric care for relatively uncomplicated pregnancies. The United States already has a criminally high rate of maternal mortality - you really don't need to make it higher to try to make Jesus happy
Yes, women who don't want to be mothers have abortions ASAP (first trimester or very early second trimester) instead of waiting until they're visibly pregnant to abort their babies. Women who don't want to have babies don't spend a long time pregnant-especially pregnant long enough for everyone to notice it and question what happened. That's why the vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester.
@@lisacrews3060 as a whole, though. We are not talking about the exception, but the rule. They only reason White people are arguing over abortion is that the Republicans did not want to go to school with Black children due to the Brown Vs The Board Of Education. The Christians won the Nixon election on abortion. Yet, Numbers Chapter 5, God gives Moses the rule to use a tincture on an unfaithful wife. If America truly cared about the unborn then we wouldn't have bombed the Middle East for 25 years. Both Biden and Trump would not be aiding Israel in the slaughter of innocent Palestinian women and children.
Won't it be great when the SBC consists of three rural Alabama churches?
Southern Baptist should be as much of a swear word as Westboro Baptist 😌
@@aosidh
I don’t think I follow what you are saying….
Isn’t SBC a Protestant denomination that is going through some challenges right now? Westboro is a cult that hates God.
?
@@aosidh
Repent and believe the Gospel, sir.
@@patrickc3419 they're still just books to me. Take it up with the Holy Spirit to get me to change my mind!
@@aosidh
See previous comment.
Turn to Christ and live while God’s given you time, and stop being a prideful stiff neck.
I don't believe it would be all that difficult to demonstrate that ordaining women skews theology. Not always in a leftward direction, mind you. But always away from Scripture. I am not sure that women teaching or women preaching does the same thing. That would be much more difficult to quantify. Besides, some women these days are holding the line far better than their male counterparts. We DO have slippage both to the left and to the right. We have failure of leadership on every side of every issue. Holy Post always skews too far to the left. McCaulley has a track record, and he clearly trends too far left, as well. On the other hand, he is quite lucid and more balanced than many on his side of things.
What if Paul wasn't the only word on Women preaching, but is just the only word we still have (Biblically speaking)? There were 12 apostles, after all, and almost none of their words and leadership in the ancient church has come down to us.
When I was a teenager in the mid 60s the pastor in the Presbyterian Church we attended began the reading of scripture in worship by saying "Listen FOR the word of God". Instinctually I knew what he meant, that the true Word of God was how He spoke to my heart as I heard the words. Sadly, no church I've been two in the last few decades takes that approach, which is largely why I stopped going. I now find other channels to hear God's word.
The name death Cafe sounds morbid, but what an amazing idea. I would go to one of those if they had one in my city. I lost my father a few months ago and I'm an only child. My pastor and church community were wonderful and I have a good group of friends. What is sad is that none of my friends or church community offered to visit my father when he was in the hospital and rehab. It's true that he was a introvert and hadn't been going to church for quite some time. But it's sad how elderly people are so readily forgotten
Attend RCIA this fall, then join the Catholic Church. Love
I’d love for you to examine some of those who are in the middle! The Cooperative Baptists in US seem to be doing it- the UK Baptists and even us Canadian Baptists! (Excited to have you join us in Banff this fall Skye!!)
AMEN ,Amen, Amen on points made on 40:00. ... on for a few min..
In Romans 16 though we do find Phoebe as a decon. So..
I lost my mom November 8th. After getting healthy, my codependent wife freaked out and cheated on me a month earlier that led to our divorce a month ago. In terms of Church, we really do not know how to grieve and mourn with each other.
Codependent ?
I've been raised Southern Baptist my entire life. My entire family but a few still are in various churches. I Switched to the non denominational Christian Church and live in Central KY near Lexington. I've never thought the main minister could be a woman. We didn't call those in charge of program' s like childrens ministry, pastors
They were called Minister of Children's ministry. Overall.. apparently a lot is up to the church.. whom in 4 different churches in same county, was taught well but the largest one out of the blue, had a 1965 ordinance. It was actually actually an entire funny thing... Remember Beth Moore and she always was a women's teacher. If men come in and listen, as Christians there is noway we should turn them away. It is different in each church too. The woman pastor I saw too and in the largest city in Ky.. So there are absolutes, but I'm confused without reading the law and votes
Now I listened to what actually passed I think. So they cab be over things except main pastor but you can't call them Pastor's.. I'm sorry. Churches and the Southern Baptist in my area preach Jesus and Bible. But over a word pastor... As an educator again, surely it wasn't just a word? All Southern Baptist aren't that Idk a nice word for it.. Just low IQ? Not smart.. It is a word only. Not logical. Just hearing it makes me want to scream. Good grief ...They are more conservative.. I would say it is more south except in SC my sisiters large Baptist church aloud more than the one now. In my town, women aren't Pastors in more than Baptist churches. I think,Presbyterian and Methodist..IDK.. abiut the convention. Except the world missions of Lottie Moon.. and home missions too.. S Baptist all have a district association they can be involved with too. In my county it depends on where u live and my last church wasn't in the association before I came. I think I heard about the scripture about Men and women? Maybe the pastor women thing amd Mayne a gay pastor thing.. In days gone by.. I just go to hear about Jesus. We all have a false belief ,I DID TOO... that we think that de nomination preaches this or believes this or that.. Times have changed and people too. Nondenominational Christian church is growing the most in my state of Ky, when at sometime I still think they were a denominational church.. I laughing have stated it often.. It for them means , not in a convention. Ok.
I just misunderstood the word.
### Caitlyn I know more about the lady and church and being respectful.. I won't comment anymore. It isn't about her or the church. I was honestly surprised at her age and claiming that she loved the Southern Baptist. She lived in a large town. I really knew they didn't allow the main pastor to be a women. My entire life. I pray they just pray and move on and be whom God called them to be.
There is no such thing as a ‘woman pastor’. They do not exist. A church with a woman pastor is not a church, nor does it employ a pastor.
@@patrickc3419@patrickc3419 @patrickc3419 do you know everything? Are you omniscient? Do you have a perfect understanding of God's Word?
No? Then start acting like it.
@@patrickc3419 There is no such thing as @patrickc3419. It does not exist. An internet comments thread with @patrickc3419 is not an intelligent conversation between sane adults.
I guess Esau is a Spurs supporter.
I don't know of any Southern Baptist church or have been a member of one that a women can be a deacon. I think THE ENTIRE QUALITIES OF A Deacon Paul does list and it is all about a man. Family of 1 wife.. and more.
Not just death we dont think about or remember to teach.../ we live our lives way too much like this is it and our short generation..WE TOTALLY FORGET scripture and the whole part that this workd now is not our home . we are just traveling, through and growing the Kingdom of God.i
1 Timothy 3 states that a man should be a deacon. And then all they must do as well as there wives. So idk any s Baptist churches that have deacons. Maybe? But it is in the Bible. So how they do Pprove of women deacons..idk..m >In Acts?
I was waiting for Esau to say “bye” immediately on the heels of Phil in order to have the last word 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I've decided that the etiquette rules made years ago at social or diner events ..
DO not talk about Relgion, politics or money
We should have learned and maybe we would all get a long better. Lol
@ average - no the world I propose is much better just not for twisted devils . As a matter of fact the world I propose existed already and will exist again
You guys are international.
Big fan from London 🇬🇧!!!
The most boring podcast I've ever heard in my life torture listening to this self-involved dribble
Great to have Esau hosting!! Everyone but Phil: stop being prudish about news of the butt; why can't we mix the humor with the faith & academics? No one takes y'all less seriously because of it. Phil, it's hard to be the only artist in the bunch; keep up the funny news!
Also, how do you differentiate liberal vs. conservative as Christians? Are the main points those of the "culture wars", eg, prochoice, supporting accepting gays into the church, racial and gender equality? Any other commenters, please point me to the HP resources that have covered this already. If liberal means love everyone, forgive, accept, all as equals, all as the image of God, all as our brothers and sisters--well, Jesus was the first liberal. This doesn't mean there isn't great personal responsibility to choose ethics and morals that are biblical. For eg, liberal Christians don't support unbiblical morals, such as sexual promiscuity or breaking other commandments that indicate a lack of respect for our heritage as the image of God, or overlooking loving one another in all thoughts and actions. Jesus was pretty clear on the heart/body/spirit alignment & intentionality of all our thoughts and actions.
Phil.. THE POINT of Death I get. Too.. BUT an OVERWHELMINg message hit me. It has before. AlL THE TALK and arguments and confusing and Pastor word or not and all ..
WE NEED To be sharing Jesus and the Good News to all. Our commission frim God..Really all that matters. But all of us has spent way too much time on this stiff.
. IT IS IMPORTANT .
BUT THE devil is having a field day
Probably late to the game with this question but for the SBC, how is Megan’s presentation not an example of a woman her teaching? Since they view 1Tim 2:12 as they do, doesn’t this violate their standard?
Reacting to Swiss story: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg
😂 they took away my like and respond options 😂 chickens
Esau, i grew up in an SBC church in Central Illinois in the 70's/80's. Deacons never preached. Since SBC churches are supposed to be independent i understand that other churches might have allowed that, but none that i was associated with or family attended would have allowed that.
Deacons are not expected to have to step up and preach. Elders are. This is what distinguishes, in a Bible preaching church, elders and deacons. Elders are the spiritual leaders. Deacons maintain the physical, financial, etc. upkeep of the local church.
@ average not a device issue , can comment on other YT posts just not this one 😂
11:53. Wish they spent this time and energy on making organs to help people who need transplants.
yes!!
Disliked the video, plenty of non sense said. Religious institutions should have defined doctrine. Religious institutions should educate members on the doctrine and expect members to adhere to the doctrine. This is a good thing and not “ideological purity”. What’s the point of having a church if you can disagree with all the teachings?
There's an asymmetry in churches when it comes to the place of more moderate or liberal believers in largely conservative spaces. Moderates and many liberals are happy to admit that a conservative position can be legitimately held, that was my position at least. This is because there is a sense of irony about my own beliefs. These questions are massive and I have no illusions that my position could possibly be THE fact of the matter. In my experience, this attitude itself, without even bringing up particular theological positions, is already threatening to many conservatives. My former pastor insisted that I had disagreements with god, and not his theological positions. He was just reporting the plain truth of a perspicuous Bible.
I resonate with this, as a moderate-to-liberal (politics & some theology) completely surrounded by conservative/neo-fundamentalist parishners/family etc. They will strenuously claim/believe/imply often that they are "Biblical" and everyone else is misreading things... but many don't seem able to contemplate that THEY might also be misreading as least some things! It's almost like they believe they're not as human as others...(ie prone to failing, limited view/understanding)
having seen the falling away in my own circles, since the trump ascendance, it has more to do with ideology than theology and likely always did.
It’s possible he’s right. It really depends on the specific issue, I suppose anyone with any moral
Delinquency could say their world view isn’t the problem , it’s the pastors theology. Perhaps it could go the other way around as well, maybe a pastor oversteps his interpretation on an unclear or grey matter not addressed in the scripture🤷♂️. Bottom line, we are very good as human beings at lying and justifying actions we may know or not know are morally unlawful
@@hgservices5572 So I think I can demonstrate my point right here in the comments.
1. I know of three models of hell. I have a preferred model because it makes the most sense to me, but I could be entirely wrong. Would you be content to let a universalist like me teach a Sunday school class at your church? What about lead a ministry team?
2. There are multiple atonement theories. Which is right? Or are they all wrong to some degree? I prefer the Christus Victor model over penal substitution or ransom, for example. Would you be content to let me lead a small group at your church? Perhaps share a message at a mens breakfast?
@@hgservices5572 Did you happen to see my previous reply? I'm curious about how you would answer.
19:26 within Pentecostal Latino traditions it’s varied. The term Pastora which translated is Pastor, is in many instances given to the Pastors wife by default. I remember this issue coming up in the AIC about 18 years ago. But you would have to look up bylaws for AG Asamblea de Dios. AIC (Asamblea de Iglesias Cristiana) MI Iglesia de Dios Misión Internacional. Just to name a few.
Call in Dr. Gabriel Salguero for one Latino perspective.
Amen... Scripture is alive and Active as a 2 edge sword. TAUGHT AS Baptist mean ,yes there are literal passages andd beliefs but it may come to u thru the Holy Spirit in a different message. Pray it and believe it!
There are a lot of communities online and doing zoom calls. We just don't have buildings and marketing programs.
The Bible is the revelation of the Logos. The Logos is the vision of Yeshua. The second person of the triune God.
This is such a timely topic. I note in the gospels that Jesus is realistic about the number (25%) who respond to the good news and who demonstrate fruitful lives and seems to be okay with that. (The parable of the 4 Soils). Jesus isn't concerned with the complex nature of the Kingdom this side of eternity (the Parable of the Good Wheat and the False Wheat). Jesus's main concern is that people follow him and actively respond to his directives, not theological purity (the parable of the wise and foolish builders). Jesus is more concerned with relational loyalty and a life of love, staying close to him guarantees a fruitful life that pleases the Father (John 15 - the True Vine and the branches). In Paul's epistles, it is much the same. Purity of life and love is more important that purity of doctrine. In fact, if one can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge but has no love, his knowledge is valueless. John agrees in 1st John: those who don't love their sisters and brothers in Christ don't know God at all. Jesus had stern words for Pharisees who strenuously pursued minutia while neglecting the "weightier matters" of mercy and justice.
@average, no? Ok then .
No to what?
Does Megan realize that it is all Gods money?
Good morning from the beautiful SF Bay Area. Now listen back to this conversation and ask yourselves if you still wonder why people are fleeing the church. The slippery slope to liberalism? Climate denial? Women's rights? Has the church totally abandoned Jesus' teachings, the Golden Rule, the first two commandments that Jesus said encompassed all the law, and the Beatitudes? Many "liberals", God forbid, listen to debates like this and ask all of these questions. I think if Jesus were to return today the Radicalized Religious Right would string him up just like they wanted to with Mr. Pence.
To Skye's point around 1:28:00, I just finished "A Church Called Tov" by Scot McKnight who addresses the misdefinition of pastor from shepherd to "leader/visionary" etc. The focus shifts from helping all of the church community to grow in Christ-likeness, to producing some product.
I have such respect for Esau. Thank you for your hope and encouragement.
Necessity is an exception to every rule. Even to the Law of God. Like when Yeshua allowed His disciples to harvest on the Sabbath. And when David ate the sacred bread. Because of hunger. Wisdom teaches us when necessity is necessary.
When is it necessary for a man to put his private parts inside another man ?
@@hgservices5572 What's necessary is for you to seek professional help in dealing with your psychosexual neuroses. Because you spend more time thinking about homosexuality than out of the closet homosexual people do. And it's not healthy.
Last word for the win!! 😂😂
6:28. With that kind of biotechnological research, we are one step closer to creating a literal Christian "think tank".
1:07:00. Everyone is at it again ruthlessly invested in washing only the outside of their bowls, leaving their insides unclean from indulging their greed and hatred.
In 1st Timothy, the author says you can't make commandments forbidding people from marrying. Then they claim women will be damned if they serve the church and then get married because they've "broken their first vow." 1st Timothy also blames Eve just like Adam did. There is so much blatant heresy in 1st Timothy it's not surprising that sexist churches cling to it to preserve power over women. 1st Timothy is as legitimate as the Gospel of Thomas.
Christ is the head of the church and Christ called women.
Sir, Christ calling women (as He certainly did) has nothing to do with biblical qualifications for the office of pastor or elder.
@@patrickc3419so what Paul may or may not have said about qualifications in a particular time and place almost 2,000 years ago with completely different historical and cultural contexts should outweigh the life, teachings, words, and example of Jesus?
Maybe if you would treat Jesus as the Son of God He is instead of as an afterthought, you could finally get on the right track.
😂😂 I'm not going to be as rough as you, but I too always say... I'm sure it's in Timothy😢😂
The market of unserved is large but they aren’t interested in the product you offer because they are too turned off by the only examples they see
Or they just want to stay home on Sunday
@@rbrinks5 if the message is one they want or believe they will make the effort.
I comment too much and any surveys...I always want to know in my head , who did u survey..
BUT YEAH ! Again for the in the 80's or mid 80's in S Baptist it was 40% to 40% Rep or Dem. I have stated many times that I never thought this way before the Trump stuff..or my parents / older adults in Obama years often stated weird stuff out of ...I had zero Idea where it was coming from
FOX NEWS.. LOL
Test
❤❤The added women pastor part I learned
There is no such thing as a woman pastor. They do not exist. It is akin to describing something as a square circle.
@@patrickc3419do you know everything? Are you omniscient? Do you have a perfect understanding of God's Word?
No? Then start acting like it.
@@patrickc3419 Your words have no authority. And mindlessly repeating them won't give them any, either.
@@3eyedcyclops
Correct, my words in and of themselves do not have authority (see Isaiah 2:22, as well as Psalm 146:3), as I am a mortal man; a sinner saved by God’s grace. The triune God alone has authority (see Matthew 28).
Again, there is no such thing as a female pastor; the term is an oxymoron (see 1 Timothy 2:12-14, as well as Titus 1). Do with this information as you desire.
Repent and believe the Gospel.
@@patrickc3419@patrickc3419 do you know everything? Are you omniscient? Do you have a perfect understanding of God's Word?
No? Then start acting like it.
Thou shalt not #kill. (Exodus 20:13) / Thou shalt not [be complicit in #genocide].
More than 14,500 #children killed in #Gaza. The latest #death toll stands at 35,287 #Palestinians and 1,139 people killed in #Israel since October 7. (2024.05.07)
🛐☮❤✝
Let’s not forget here at home and abroad , millions of babies are killed willingly by their mothers , we live in an age where even our natural affections are tricked from us by the evil one in the name of convenience
@@hgservices5572how many people have to die to save the lives of the unborn?
@average how many unborn have to do die needlessly or for frivolous reasons?
@@hgservices5572how would you suggest we reduce the number of abortions?
1. Messaging - replacing the narrative of bodily autonomy with an emphasis on the sanctity of life
2. Laws- basic “carrots and sticks”
Government promotes or discourages activity through laws and taxing/tax breaks
3. Optional Governmental temporary sterilization programs . This generally goes against my political tendencies and would no doubt have to be modified as population deficit would potentially create huge personnel and social program deficiencies but coupled with proper messaging this final option could become a rare option in the extreme.essentially If there are no pregnancies there are no babies to kill .
Sorry I tried four times in that thread to answer in varying ways and even to tell you simply that it’s moderator related I think and not YT related 🤷♂️ trying this route
Yes tax cuts.
I am more art larger and you are more Bernie sanders . I do well for myself. I say tax cuts for everyone . Let the gov be a better steward of what they have and we will talk about giving more
Regarding character and policy
Trump stating the obvious truth that wealth power and fame attract women is not his fault, it is almost as old as kingdoms .
Ironic that he and his platform have become the champion of bringing some of those conservative values but it is what it is, art of the deal right?
@@hgservices5572any comments that are allowed in separate posts would be allowed in the original as well.
If this was a Holy Post moderator and they wanted to censor you, they would've banned you entirely by now.
Governance over character is not foreign to the left either. Sam Harris seriously stated that he would vote Biden even if he had bodies buried in his basement . I suspect this is because of his policy. Or even what many voters call “ the lesser of two evils”. That “evil” is perceived by both sides on the opposite end .
Regarding the “ dangers” of Trump. This is simply drinking the kool aid .
We lives through a Trump term and oddly things were in a better state
sometimes I wonder if the intensity of the pushing on issues such as the place of women in the church isn't at least partially influenced by people pushing back against critical scholarship. If the scholars are saying "no that book wasn't actually written by Paul" people may respond by doubling down on applying what the book says to enforce that "yes it was". Obviously that's not the only factor, but I just wonder if it's one of them.
Let's hope that a supercomputer won't look like Krang.
This was a great conversation. I learned a lot about the current state of things.
@ 3 eyes. I’m not trying to convince you that I AM worldly , but letting you know I WAS worldly and probably have gone and done further than you would care to dare my darling
@hgservices5572 Stop lying. If you were half as worldly as you want me to think you are, then you wouldn't be half as scared of the world as you cannot hide that you are. You are scared of the world. You are scared of everything in it that is unfamiliar to you. You are scared of the people you don't understand who are doing things you don't understand for reasons you don't understand. I know this because if you weren't, then you wouldn't be panicking about it all in this internet comments section.
SPU!! I did not graduate, but I did attend there for a bit .
At the risk of sounding like a paranoid wingnut, (& hope Im wrong but):
I think this next election will put us on 1 of 2 trajectories: Either extreme liberalism/communism or Trumpian Dictatorship.
Biden is neoliberal at best. You're correct about Trump though.
@ 3 eyes but that’s neither here nor there just letting you know you’re wrong again. , but you should be used to that by now
@hgservices5572 You're just lying. Everyone fears what they don't understand. You are not the exception to this rule. And you fear so much because you understand so little.
@@3eyedcyclopsI highly doubt hg is even having this issue in the first place. Probably just a juvenile way of trolling without having to debate, since they know they can't win one.
@@averageuser4367 As people, we tend to view the world as a scary place. So scary, in fact, that the most frightening thing in it is a different way of looking at it. Bigots like hg are often afraid that other people will see how afraid they are. Because they're ashamed of their fear. But don't let them fool you with a thin façade of false bravado. No one is as afraid as hg is of seeing the world from other people's perspectives without being afraid of the world itself.
Its not like the one passage that says women aren't to speak in church-which is probably a specific rule for that particular church. The many MANY verses & passages in the Bible (I just now ggld) that say women are not to be HEAD pastors &,are very clear. I dont love it either-but it is what it is what God commands. And it makes sense. It cant be that the wife is her husbands headship at church but it's the opposite at home. That does not even make sense.
There's PLENTY of other headship positions for women in the church to fulfill their leadership calling- just not head pastor.
Esau is da man!
It’s funny listening these two talk about the southern Baptist Contention that is and will remain the largest while the denominations who have taken their advice dwindle like the view count on this channel
@robbower5489 It is said that one can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. But I find that what flies love most of all is a steaming pile of 💩like the SBC. Maybe popularity isn't a good indicator of quality?
Is dividing denominations and closing churches with dwindling numbers a sign of quality?
@@robbower5489 What do you think it's a sign of? I think that, in the internet age, there will inevitably be a great deal of social atomization as people become more independently-minded. And my hope is that, in the longer term, people will follow their own individual paths toward enlightenment, before coming together again around truer Truths than the ones churches have long organized themselves around.
Good luck with that
@@robbower5489by that standard, we would have to condemn Christianity as a whole.
@ average . I cannot respond to your comments , that ability has been deactivated ?
Works fine for me. May be a device issue.
It's not a device issue. It's a user issue.
@@3eyedcyclops I'm well aware. I work in tech support for a living. I was just trying to be nice.
Righteousness will make you slide to the right while grace will make you slide to the left. Personally I prefer grace to Righteousness because I can live with God's grace but not with His Righteousness.
Why chose ? Have both
@@hgservices5572 So are you on the right or on the left?
What do you mean ?
@@hgservices5572 Which way do you slide? To the right or to the left?
Define right and left please . What makes one right or left ?
Calvinist churches do not have the market cornered on Conservative Christianity. There are protestant churches from the Wesleyan/Holiness/Pentecostal tradition who would put the Southern Baptists to shame with their Conservatism. And yet---many of the Pentecostal churches have had women in pastoral roles for decades.
A church with a woman pastor is not a church, nor does it have a pastor.
@@patrickc3419@patrickc3419 do you really think that the people who disagree with you aren't familiar with 1 Timothy or Titus? Do you really think that there is no reasonable way that people could disagree with you?
Yes, there was likely at least one female apostle: Junia.
@@averageuser4367
People should have the freedom to disagree until they’re blue in the face. It doesn’t matter what they think; it matters what God says.
@@patrickc3419do you have a perfect understanding of what God says?
True , I know of some Pentecostal holiness churches that allow women “teachers” and “preachers ” I think because they term them as “prophetess” which were referred to in scripture ala Acts21:9 etc
Numbers Chapter 5 condones abortion.
Not exactly. More like Numbers 5 commands forced sterilization of unfaithful wives.
Either way, her bodily autonomy was hardly respected, nor was any potential offspring in her future.
@@averageuser4367 How would you qualify that there was no baby in the stomach without an alta-sound?
@@averageuser4367 NIV = verse 21. "May your womb miscarry."
KJV = Your thigh to rot, and your stomach swell.
@@troybody6662I don't claim to be an expert on ancient pregnancy tests. I'm just referring to what the Bible has to say. Numbers 5: 28 says that a woman who passes the test would be able to conceive. Ergo, she wasn't pregnant at the time.
@@troybody6662I could be mistaken. I'm just referring to what I believe the academic consensus to be.
Regardless, the woman wouldn't have had agency in the event that such a process was carried out.
@ 3 eyes , sheltered ? 😂 you think I don’t know what’s out in the world do you and the internet is just now revealing it to me? Mam, the things I’ve done would make you blush , you’d also wonder how I’m still alive . I’m well aware of what is abound mam. I think you might be the one triggered about another viewpoint , there , here we are again , the world is a mirror . 🪞
@hgservices5572 If you were half as worldly as you want me to think you are, you wouldn't be half as scared of the world as you cannot hide you are.