As an amateur dress historian, every one of your videos has given me plenty of new information, not just overviews of things I've learned. I am thrilled you are making content on this often-overlooked period. You're definitely now in my team of UA-camrs across the centuries that I can reliably turn to! Thank you so much! PS I'd love to hear your commentary on the fashion in the film Tulip Fever! Edit: PPS I also really appreciate that you use language that assumes I have a baseline knowledge of what is being explained. For example, just saying the word stomacher without explanation made me feel included and knowledgeable; like I'm attending a lecture I wish I had taken in university. And, if anyone is new to this, they can easily look that word up! Again, love your work and looking forward to more!
Ah thanks so much! I'm really glad you're enjoying the channel! That's a great idea about Tulip Fever (I loved the costumes in it) and that period of Dutch fashion is really underdiscussed. I've just submitted my next book manuscript so I'll have time to film some more videos soon! :)
I'm definitely guilty of calling them stays instead of bodies--glad for the clarification 🤣 It's also so nice to see another content creator interested in this time period. It doesn't get enough love or attention, and it should.
Thank you for this! Keep on with the 17th century - no one seems to be at all interested in this century and there are a few of us who are fascinated by the period. 🧡💙
I absolutely want to see the video you mention around ten minutes in, about women's body shape and association with youth and marital status (I don't know how directly I can say it without angering youtube). This video was lovely -- thank you so much for excellent information about this neglected time period! I've moved your book up to the top of my wishlist and can't wait to read it.
@@sarahabendallicky is also part of history and truth. Sunlight is great for this! I’d love to know more men’s desires in those days in comparison to today’s. I’ll fill in the blanks through my own firsthand experiences being a New Orleans bartender for decades and living in Asia almost a decade.
Thank you for all your work on this video! as an archaeologist from another field (mesoamerica), it can be so hard to find accessible research from other fields that still goes into the kind of detail that i want! I love getting into the nitty gritty of a historical niche, hearing all of your personal theories and gripes with the research and the arguments in academia that have gone on! Ugh. Just, thank you so much. I'm sitting here embroidering and I'm so happy that I found a channel that 1. lets me learn about a niche that is not my own 2. has been very well researched and respects the listener's intelligence enough to propose very nuanced ideas. Thank you thank you thank you! I'm so glad i found your channel
Amusing note about how we name things based on where they're from but with food: the danish (pastry bread). In Denmark it's called "Vienna bread" (to translate it). So the Danish got it from Austria and the English speaking world got it from Denmark. Overall, very good and informative video!
It's so fascinating isn't it! I didn't know this about the Danish/Vienna pastry. French farthingale rolls were called 'Flemish' rolls by the Spanish, so there's an interesting history there about the transmission of this garment to Spain via their territories in the Low Countries
I’m in Florida, USA, so I just ordered your book but from a U.S. seller. I sure hope that’s ok and that you get the royalty from the sale. I never know if I’ve done the right thing. I didn’t know you had a book and I’m delighted to find you and hear your knowledge. Thank you for posting, you are appreciated. It’s going to be a long few days waiting for your book to arrive!
Ah thank so much, I hope you enjoy it! We don’t make many royalties on academic books - perhaps a rant I can go into in a video some day - so I’m sure it’s fine regardless. Thanks so much for your support! 😊
I thought I would add this, as when I'm gone, it will be forgotten. If it's useful information I'm glad! My relative born in the 1880's and her sisters all had, what I thought, a very peculiar practice. ( apart from never taking their hats off while paying visits, coats yes, hats never) They all wore something they called a chemise, a white linen or cotton under garment, before putting on their 'stays'. The stays, yes plural, because they were two separate, boned pieces held together by very long laces. When laced up, of course, the parts came together. The lacing was at the back, but designed to tie at the front, in the absence of a lady's maid, I presume. As well as this there was a row of hooks and eyes in the front. The bones were not real bones, but very small circles of steel ? wire, entwined with each other in a strip that ran from the top of the stay, to the bottom of the garment, in a slot provided. This garment ended where a bra, today, would begin. As for the bodice, I can say that middle class little girls wore bodices over their vests in winter. The garment was sleeveless, a cotton fleece type lining gave it a slightly padded look. Some were pull over the head, some had 3 rubber buttons down the front to help pull over the head. But they all had the curious feature of having a tape running from the shoulder of the garment to the bottom. It seemed to hold the garment in shape. I think this had died out by the early 50's...thank God!
When I was young, in about the late 60's, a girl at my dancing class, in Manchester UK, used to wear a bodice. She said she was made to wear it, and she said it was for warmth, but I could also imagine it being useful for modesty. We'd be about 10 or 11, I think.
Thanks so much for this fascinating comment! That’s so interesting that your relatives still called them stays in the late 19th century and that they were bra-like garments. You do see transition stays during the regency period that end mid-rib cage so it sounds a bit like those. Bodices seem to have endured in traditional clothing - folk and peasant costume - after the 17/18th centuries. But you also hear them referenced a lot in the 18th and 19th centuries in relation to children’s dress - so it seems like that still stuck in the 20th century too. So much food for thought, thanks so much!
Thank goodness for all those thieves or we'd have little record of what those undergarments were called in each time period! It's a shame and surprise to me that nothing exists (letters, books, manuals, etc) that explain better the meaning and evolution of the terminology.
Yes it really is annoying that nothing better exists! We have lots of French dictionaries but of course terminology was different there. I think things just become so common place that everyone already knew (or assumes you knew) what it meant. The joys of language! 😊
Wonderful video, thank you, this info on bodies/bodice (specifically being outerwear for informal settings for lower classes) is very helpful for me as I try to construct a slightly historically accurate renaissance fair costume :)
I'm starting to think I should have focused on Edward IV's wardrobe, and how much he copied Burgundy then, when it came to his magnificence rather than a manuscript. I'm so glad this popped up on my UA-cam suggestions. ~MV
Yes I think this is spot on! I do allude to this in the last section of the video, but you’ve said it much more articulately. 😊 The ‘stays’ (ie. stiffening) commonly come to be worn separately to the gown (which was already common with bodies in relation to waistcoats etc) but becomes much more common with adoption of mantua gowns
I wonder if the naming variations are more of a product of non-standardized spelling and the great vowel shift than multiple names for the same garments. Edit - referring to “bodyes” which may have actually been the phonetic spelling of the modern bodice. In which case the “bodies” are all a description of a bodice (with or without boning or stiffening).
Yes definitely! What we think of as being few different words and garments are actually just the product of non standard spelling at the time to refer to the same garment. Early modern English is much less precise when it comes to differentiating between types/variations of a garment compared to a language like french.
Good question! We don't really know. There is a history of concealed garments in the UK and its colonies (USA, Australia, etc) of clothing (mostly shoes) being placed in the walls and chimneys of buildings. We call it 'deliberately concealed clothing and think this was some sort of superstitious belief, but these bodies under the floorboards don't really seem to fit with that idea.
You have a lot of interesting things to say, which I'd love to learn, but, (& please don't take this personally, as I'm trying to offer constructive criticism, explaining in the hope that it helps you) if you're going to do this long-term, you'd benefit from the help of a vocal coach. Your knowledge & qualifications are unquestionable, but this current fashion where young women adopt Creaky-voice affect, combined with the rush of nerves & your logical attempt to project your voice, while unfortunately having the nasal eastern states accent, makes it feel (as also occurs with many American UA-camrs) like you're talking AT viewers instead of TO them. A coach could help you with your breathing which will make things much more comfortable & relaxed for you & can teach you how to lower your voice so that you project from your body & not from your head. Work expenses can be tax-deductible & it could be a great investment in your channel, which has the potential to be amazing. Best wishes & good luck.
Hi there. I’m not American. What you can hear is my Australian accent. This is how myself and a nation of people speak, I cannot change this. Thanks for stopping by!
As an amateur dress historian, every one of your videos has given me plenty of new information, not just overviews of things I've learned. I am thrilled you are making content on this often-overlooked period. You're definitely now in my team of UA-camrs across the centuries that I can reliably turn to! Thank you so much! PS I'd love to hear your commentary on the fashion in the film Tulip Fever!
Edit: PPS I also really appreciate that you use language that assumes I have a baseline knowledge of what is being explained. For example, just saying the word stomacher without explanation made me feel included and knowledgeable; like I'm attending a lecture I wish I had taken in university. And, if anyone is new to this, they can easily look that word up! Again, love your work and looking forward to more!
Ah thanks so much! I'm really glad you're enjoying the channel! That's a great idea about Tulip Fever (I loved the costumes in it) and that period of Dutch fashion is really underdiscussed. I've just submitted my next book manuscript so I'll have time to film some more videos soon! :)
I'm definitely guilty of calling them stays instead of bodies--glad for the clarification 🤣 It's also so nice to see another content creator interested in this time period. It doesn't get enough love or attention, and it should.
Thank you for this! Keep on with the 17th century - no one seems to be at all interested in this century and there are a few of us who are fascinated by the period. 🧡💙
No worries at all. It’s a real shame that this century doesn’t get the same love as others. My mission on social media is to make to cool haha
Yes, please do that! 🥰@@sarahabendall
I think it's because there aren't as many extant pieces so it's a lot more conjectural than later periods
As a lay person with a passing interest, this topic has always confused me. I appreciate the clarification.
No worries at all, glad it was helpful!
I absolutely want to see the video you mention around ten minutes in, about women's body shape and association with youth and marital status (I don't know how directly I can say it without angering youtube). This video was lovely -- thank you so much for excellent information about this neglected time period! I've moved your book up to the top of my wishlist and can't wait to read it.
Thanks so much!! I will definitely get around to make a video on this topic - it’s super fascinating (and a bit… icky )
@@sarahabendallicky is also part of history and truth. Sunlight is great for this! I’d love to know more men’s desires in those days in comparison to today’s. I’ll fill in the blanks through my own firsthand experiences being a New Orleans bartender for decades and living in Asia almost a decade.
Sounds like a good book
Thank you for all your work on this video! as an archaeologist from another field (mesoamerica), it can be so hard to find accessible research from other fields that still goes into the kind of detail that i want! I love getting into the nitty gritty of a historical niche, hearing all of your personal theories and gripes with the research and the arguments in academia that have gone on! Ugh. Just, thank you so much. I'm sitting here embroidering and I'm so happy that I found a channel that 1. lets me learn about a niche that is not my own 2. has been very well researched and respects the listener's intelligence enough to propose very nuanced ideas. Thank you thank you thank you! I'm so glad i found your channel
Ah thanks so much!! I hope you enjoy the channel 😊
Your book is such a treasure; so excited to see you on UA-cam!
Ah that’s so lovely to hear, thanks so much!
Amusing note about how we name things based on where they're from but with food: the danish (pastry bread). In Denmark it's called "Vienna bread" (to translate it). So the Danish got it from Austria and the English speaking world got it from Denmark.
Overall, very good and informative video!
It's so fascinating isn't it! I didn't know this about the Danish/Vienna pastry. French farthingale rolls were called 'Flemish' rolls by the Spanish, so there's an interesting history there about the transmission of this garment to Spain via their territories in the Low Countries
I’m in Florida, USA, so I just ordered your book but from a U.S. seller. I sure hope that’s ok and that you get the royalty from the sale. I never know if I’ve done the right thing. I didn’t know you had a book and I’m delighted to find you and hear your knowledge. Thank you for posting, you are appreciated. It’s going to be a long few days waiting for your book to arrive!
Ah thank so much, I hope you enjoy it! We don’t make many royalties on academic books - perhaps a rant I can go into in a video some day - so I’m sure it’s fine regardless. Thanks so much for your support! 😊
this is a great video! i'm also really interested in fashion throughout australian history
Loved this, informative and properly cited while still being accessible enough to watch with dinner! Looking forward to what you create next!
Thanks for watching 😊
I thought I would add this, as when I'm gone, it will be forgotten. If it's useful information I'm glad! My relative born in the 1880's and her sisters all had, what I thought, a very peculiar practice. ( apart from never taking their hats off while paying visits, coats yes, hats never) They all wore something they called a chemise, a white linen or cotton under garment, before putting on their 'stays'. The stays, yes plural, because they were two separate, boned pieces held together by very long laces. When laced up, of course, the parts came together. The lacing was at the back, but designed to tie at the front, in the absence of a lady's maid, I presume. As well as this there was a row of hooks and eyes in the front. The bones were not real bones, but very small circles of steel ? wire, entwined with each other in a strip that ran from the top of the stay, to the bottom of the garment, in a slot provided. This garment ended where a bra, today, would begin.
As for the bodice, I can say that middle class little girls wore bodices over their vests in winter. The garment was sleeveless, a cotton fleece type lining gave it a slightly padded look. Some were pull over the head, some had 3 rubber buttons down the front to help pull over the head. But they all had the curious feature of having a tape running from the shoulder of the garment to the bottom. It seemed to hold the garment in shape. I think this had died out by the early 50's...thank God!
When I was young, in about the late 60's, a girl at my dancing class, in Manchester UK, used to wear a bodice. She said she was made to wear it, and she said it was for warmth, but I could also imagine it being useful for modesty. We'd be about 10 or 11, I think.
Thanks so much for this fascinating comment! That’s so interesting that your relatives still called them stays in the late 19th century and that they were bra-like garments. You do see transition stays during the regency period that end mid-rib cage so it sounds a bit like those.
Bodices seem to have endured in traditional clothing - folk and peasant costume - after the 17/18th centuries. But you also hear them referenced a lot in the 18th and 19th centuries in relation to children’s dress - so it seems like that still stuck in the 20th century too. So much food for thought, thanks so much!
Thank goodness for all those thieves or we'd have little record of what those undergarments were called in each time period! It's a shame and surprise to me that nothing exists (letters, books, manuals, etc) that explain better the meaning and evolution of the terminology.
Yes it really is annoying that nothing better exists! We have lots of French dictionaries but of course terminology was different there. I think things just become so common place that everyone already knew (or assumes you knew) what it meant. The joys of language! 😊
Brilliant. So informative, thank you.
Wonderful video, thank you, this info on bodies/bodice (specifically being outerwear for informal settings for lower classes) is very helpful for me as I try to construct a slightly historically accurate renaissance fair costume :)
Glad it was helpful! Good luck with your costume!
I'm starting to think I should have focused on Edward IV's wardrobe, and how much he copied Burgundy then, when it came to his magnificence rather than a manuscript. I'm so glad this popped up on my UA-cam suggestions. ~MV
Hi Melissa! Love that your algorithm brought you to me again. Hope you're well!
@sarahabendall Had to happen eventually, I watch too many docos and UA-cam historians. Well enough! Looking forward to more videos.
10:14 Yes! Talk about boobies! Interesting that a smaller size was in style
Yes it goes to show that beauty is very subjective and fluctuates a lot. I’ll pop that video on me to make list 😊
Interesting! Please keep making content ❤
Would the bodies be the 'stay' for the unstructured Mantua, hence why the body started to be called the stays?
Yes I think this is spot on! I do allude to this in the last section of the video, but you’ve said it much more articulately. 😊 The ‘stays’ (ie. stiffening) commonly come to be worn separately to the gown (which was already common with bodies in relation to waistcoats etc) but becomes much more common with adoption of mantua gowns
I wonder if the naming variations are more of a product of non-standardized spelling and the great vowel shift than multiple names for the same garments. Edit - referring to “bodyes” which may have actually been the phonetic spelling of the modern bodice. In which case the “bodies” are all a description of a bodice (with or without boning or stiffening).
Yes definitely! What we think of as being few different words and garments are actually just the product of non standard spelling at the time to refer to the same garment. Early modern English is much less precise when it comes to differentiating between types/variations of a garment compared to a language like french.
Corset bodies
Cour d’Alene coconut palms
Pruned fascination
#haiku #fascination #corsetbodies #palmtreeprune
how did that paur of bodies get under the floorboards haha
Good question! We don't really know. There is a history of concealed garments in the UK and its colonies (USA, Australia, etc) of clothing (mostly shoes) being placed in the walls and chimneys of buildings. We call it 'deliberately concealed clothing and think this was some sort of superstitious belief, but these bodies under the floorboards don't really seem to fit with that idea.
You have a lot of interesting things to say, which I'd love to learn, but, (& please don't take this personally, as I'm trying to offer constructive criticism, explaining in the hope that it helps you) if you're going to do this long-term, you'd benefit from the help of a vocal coach. Your knowledge & qualifications are unquestionable, but this current fashion where young women adopt Creaky-voice affect, combined with the rush of nerves & your logical attempt to project your voice, while unfortunately having the nasal eastern states accent, makes it feel (as also occurs with many American UA-camrs) like you're talking AT viewers instead of TO them. A coach could help you with your breathing which will make things much more comfortable & relaxed for you & can teach you how to lower your voice so that you project from your body & not from your head. Work expenses can be tax-deductible & it could be a great investment in your channel, which has the potential to be amazing. Best wishes & good luck.
Hi there. I’m not American. What you can hear is my Australian accent. This is how myself and a nation of people speak, I cannot change this. Thanks for stopping by!