Mate, you are a goddamn hero for making this video and digging up all this insanely obscure information. How in the world did you find the Japanese scans for the Metroid Prime games? I've looked for those for a while but never found them. You could make an entire video on the sheer number of differences there are between the English and Japanese versions of Prime. Just that information about the Beam Pirates actually being Phazon-infused experimental soldiers in Japanese is huge and fixes the plothole in the American version of them using Chozo beam weapons which is obviously not the case.
Perhaps the Beam Troopers could be a combination of both cases, with them being infused with Phazon and having access to reverse-engineered Chozo weapons
The thing about the manga that’s so funny to me is everyone thinking the chozo are such great people for *checks notes* forcing a kid into harsh training? Lmao if they were actually trying to be good guardians they’d let Samus just be a kid
The bulk of your analysis format involves dissecting narrative inconsistencies, which I don't think is an applicable way of determining canon, at least in the metroid way of doing things (though I think your points about how Sakamoto discusses his view on the manga have more merit as the information reaches closer to a direct answer). I say this simply because the Prime games have been stated to be very much canon by Sakamoto himself, despite numerous narrative inconsistencies within that as well when aligned with the 2d timeline. - Metroid prime (creature) was said to have been within the meteor (called the worm) when we know that the chozo created the metroids. - The space pirates in the prime games are portrayed as being highly resourceful and self reliant with a versatile ability to adapt to situations despite Samus' interferences. meanwhile, the Space pirates in the 2d side are treated more as you stated, feral creatures that follow an alpha to guide them. - Ridley has been showed to have clearly burst into energy at the end of his omega ridley boss battle, however, he comes back as proteus ridley in samus returns, and a complete ridley in super metroid. The reason for this comes from retro studios not being informed on the inner workings of the 2d franchise, combined with them being given a wide berth to do their own creative things with their end of the metroid universe. Dread does in fact reference the Manga (or super metroid comic, either works) by using the respective format for chozo names, addressing the rarity in chozo wings, and raven beak proclaiming himself as samus' genetic father arguably being a nod to grey voice and his connection to Samus. This doesn't confirm the manga to be canon per say, but it does suggest someone on the Dread team was certainly taking a read. I can't help but assume Sakamoto no longer holds up his point about the Zebes colonization happening after SR388 as canon. Because if this is true, then we have no reason to be believe that Samus was ever raised on zebes by chozo, as the thoha would have been massacred (save for quiet robe) before the migration. From what I heard, Sakamoto once said that samus lost her metroid dna at the end of fusion when she absorbed the sa-x core, only for that to be retconned for the metroid transformation story of dread. Also take a look at the Dread cutscene with young samus in the fluid tank, the two shadows in the background could very well be old bird and quiet robe based on their (obscure but present) details. It is hard to make out by I think it was meant to be that way. Ultimately, I think Sakamoto is just trying to keep his eyes on the main games, leaving third parties to work out the other aspects of the metroid franchise. I feel like the story of metroid travels a really confusing and bumpy road as a result of communication issues and gradual change in storytelling methods. I'd say a clear and concise vision to map out the entirety of the franchise story would be appreciated from nintendo to finally set things straight (which you could argue Sakamoto is trying to do). So while I don't see eye to eye with your primary method of reaching your conclusion, I do appreciate the hard research you have implemented into your video and deserves much attention. Keep up the good work!
Ok, so... respectfully, pretty much all of these points are wrong or show a serious lack of understanding. -Metroid Prime was never said to come along with the meteor, which is you seem to be getting at. In fact, Prime 3 explicitly points out that there were NOT Metroids on Phaaze and Metroid Primes did not come from Phaaze, as the Metroids on Phaaze were brought there by the Space Pirates under Dark Samus's orders, which are the ones encountered ingame. We are simply told it didn't come from Phaaze, and it didn't come from the space pirates. We are left simply to conclude a Metroid was on Tallon IV with the Talloric Chozo 50 years ago, which isn't a contradiction but is at best a loose plot thread. There's no outright contradiction here anywhere. -The Space Pirates are not a single species (in fact there are 3 separate known species in the games with a few implied species), and Retro was specifically banned from using the 2D Space Pirates (the Zebesians). In fact, full models of the Zebesians in Prime 1 were made, as well as animations, before Nintendo told Retro they couldn't do that. In fact, the specific reasoning given back in 2000 was that Zebesians are not intelligent. The Prime games feature an entirely distinct species in the same Space Pirate organization known as Urtagian space pirates, which are intelligent. One single Zebesian appears at all in the Prime games, in a tank in Lab Hydra in Prime 1, and it's very easy to miss. But it does help to emphasize the difference between the two species. -Being able to destabilize yourself into Phazon energy like that when wounded and then reform elsewhere is an explicit ability of leviathan guardian-tier phazon organisms. Dark Samus does it twice in cutscenes in Prime 2, and is shown reforming once in Torvus. In gameplay, she's actually so friggin casual about this that blowing herself up across the room is part of her moveset for her second and third fights! So, it's pretty clear that Ridley is doing that if you pay attention throughout the games, and Retro staff once mentioned they were specifically forbidden to kill Ridley onscreen in the Prime games in an interview a while back. -Retro was given creative freedom, but not as much as you seem to think. They were specifically monitored by the Japanese side of Nintendo, and with Prime 2 and 3, lore scans had to be submitted to Nintendo, and were sent back with edits enforced by the Japanese branch to make things mesh; a Kiwitalks interview has a mention that most of the time spent by the story people on the trilogy from Retro's side was actually implmenting these mandated edits. And then of course, there's also things like the aforementioned ban on using Zebesians in the Prime games. There's also claims among staff for Prime Hunters and the trilogy that they were given some vague "Metroid bible" by Nintendo to adhere to eventually, seemingly around the time of Prime 2. As for Prime 1, well... Nintendo basically trashed the original lore of the gamecube NTSC-U version written by Nate Bihldorff entirely and had the Japanese side of Nintendo write entirely new Japanese lore for Prime 1's Japanese release. All non-English versions of Prime 1, as well as Prime 2 and 3, treat that Japanese version of Prime 1 as gospel, implementing Japanese exclusive things like the pirates' PED Suit technology and Tallon Metroids from Japanese Prime 1's plot. -"Because if this is true, then we have no reason to be believe that Samus was ever raised on zebes by chozo, as the thoha would have been massacred (save for quiet robe) before the migration." Ok, again respectfully, what exactly is the logic here? This is entirely a non sequitr. The only thing we know is that Samus was not raised by Thoha Chozo. This does not contradict her being raised by Chozo period, just that she was not raised by Thoha chozo. -"From what I heard, Sakamoto once said that samus lost her metroid dna at the end of fusion when she absorbed the sa-x core, only for that to be retconned for the metroid transformation story of dread." I'm not gonna rib you too hard on this one since it's an honest mistake, but that's a mistranslation. What Sakamoto says is essentially that absorbing the SA-X made her Metroid DNA become extremely controlled and in a much more dormant state. Which is necessary; the Japanese version of Fusion makes it very explicit that if Samus were to fire the Ice Beam in her state prior to making the DNA more dormant, it would kill her because attempting to fire a shot would freeze her from the inside. This is also likely why the Ice Beam was never considered for inclusion in Dread, in favor of Ice Missiles. -"Ultimately, I think Sakamoto is just trying to keep his eyes on the main games, leaving third parties to work out the other aspects of the metroid franchise. I feel like the story of metroid travels a really confusing and bumpy road as a result of communication issues and gradual change in storytelling methods. I'd say a clear and concise vision to map out the entirety of the franchise story would be appreciated from nintendo to finally set things straight (which you could argue Sakamoto is trying to do)." Sakamoto has been said to have supervised all installments of the prime series except for Hunters, where his involvement is never alluded to and simply Tanebe's involvement is known. He specifically wanted to "ensure everything fit in the same narrative" and wanted to weed out any major contradictions. He's also said more recently in a Dread interview that the story of Dread took more inspiration from the Prime games and Other M, and his involvement in those games, between its initial cancellation and its eventual release, with regards to the tweaks made to the original story (which albeit, was still "largely intact" from the original 2005 era narrative of Dread). He's probably not penning the plots of those games directly, but he's at least looking over their shoulder ever since Prime 1's development debacle. Hopefully that clarifies the understanding of certain things; ultimately, the games really don't tend to have contradictions that aren't addressed by the two remakes for the most part, and most contradictions that do exist only exist due to errors in English translations. The manga, however, still poses major issues even in its source text, as opposed to the games which more or less work together flawlessly when using the remakes over the originals. There's not really narrative inconsistencies between Prime and the 2D games; just translation errors
@@JacobNintendoNerd99 Alright, you seem to know your stuff and I've come across someone else mentioning some of your details today. Are some of these from UA-cam interviews or websites? I'm particularly interested in Sakamoto talking of Dread's connections to prime and other m.
So here's the thing, i'm pretty sure nobody (especially in the developement team) cares what an old manual said. I'm not saying that your comparisons of the manga and the manuals is right or wrong, i'm pretty sure some of your arguments aren't correct, but that doesn't matter. If anything, the manga is a retcon. Next, the fusion endings a re more of a collage, i'm pretty sure they are not supposed to represent one whole event that actually happened. Other Ms story in english is not to be trusted. These games actually trying to reference the manga makes it more canon. With SR it gets difficult, it should be obvious that there might have been a second retcon. I actually still not sure if there is an actual problem with the timeline created by SR, but if there is, it must be a retcon either to include aeion or because Sakamoto wanted to change the story as he didn't work on the original. This retcon continues for Dread, though your argument for Dread was really weak honestly. Despite me really not agreeing with you at all, i do appreciate the effort you put into this video. You rarely see someone do this big of a deep dive into metroid lore even though a big part of this video is more meta stuff than actual lore.
If the first claim was true at all, the manuals wouldn't be quoted verbatim in Other M's Japanese version and Samus Returns's intro, to list just two bigger times among many other smaller references, nor would promotional material constantly bring up the manuals' story contents when talking about the older games. The manuals are essentially considered part of the games themselves as far as canon is concerned to Nintendo and Sakamoto. Secondly, he uses the Japanese version of Other M as more prevalent over the English version and quotes the Japanese versions quite frequently, making it pretty clear that he's not necessarily trusting the English version. In fact, the Japanese versions actually mesh even worse than the English ones because Japanese Fusion contradicts the manga more severely for points brought up in the video, such as Adam and Samus's history being different from the manga in Fusion. And then there's the reasoning for Samus becoming a bounty hunter being different between the manga and Other M. Zero Mission references Zebes Invasion Order pretty heavily, and the manga references the Super Metroid comic pretty heavily, are both of those canon by this logic? The games don't really even reference anything super specific to the manga and mainly reference stuff introduced by the Super Metroid comic.
Here the proof why Metroid manga is canon ua-cam.com/video/RUQAgIOfX8Q/v-deo.html timestamp 7:55 In this interview Sakamoto said this "Si, estuve encima de la creacion de este manga y pienso que el mundo de Metroid y la personalidad de Samus estan bien transmitidos." Which on English translation this gonna mean this "Yes, I was on top of the creation of this manga and I think that the world of Metroid and the personality of Samus are well conveyed."
Hello there, thanks for the source, though I do not appreciate the very hostile tone you take by coming into my comment section. Nonetheless, it took me a while to fully sus this thing out since we of course want to verify the original Japanese. According to the Spanish subtitles, he answered the following: “Sí, estuve encima de la creación de este manga y piense que el mundo de Metroid y la personalidad de Samus estan bien transmitidos.” "Yes, I was behind the creation of this manga and I thought the world of Metroid and Samus's personality were well transmited.” Got the translation here from a Spanish speaker. This does seem to imply his involvement quite bluntly, however Sakamoto gives his answer in Japanese, which was translated for the Spanish subtitles and is here translated to English. To avoid a game of telephone, it is necessary to look at the original Japanese he spoke: “あの、この漫画を描くときに僕は監修していますのでこの、まあ、ある意味漫画という表現のサムスであり、メトロイドの世界のいろんな話が描かている”(audio transcription by Sidier from the video who is often active on Discord with things relating to Nintendo and Japanese) “Well, I was series supervisor when the manga was drawn, so... Well, you could say it's a way to express Samus in manga format, and depict varying stories about Metroid's universe." Which is a lot less committal and seems to imply the Spanish subtitles mistranslate quite a bit; Sakamoto merely states he was the Metroid series’ supervisor at the time and says the manga is a way to express an interpretation of the Metroid universe. This is also in-line with his other statement discussed in the video concerning the manga. He could also have had a vague supervising role with this manga in all honesty, but he has never said as such. We do know he at least had to approve some things in the Samus and Joey manga as said by that manga’s author in an interview with the Shinesparkers website: “Because of that, we went to the Nintendo’s Kyoto headquarters and we directly negotiated with the staff and the producer, Sakamoto. After that, this story in the Metroid universe featuring a child could finally be made as a side-story, Metroid: Samus and Joey.” So even if he had a minor supervising role I doubt that would mean much for the manga being canon or not, since the same process happened with Samus and Joey and that clearly isn’t (the manga is supposed to be set between Super Metroid and Fusion, but features the Space Pirates’ organization, which at that timeframe in the series are no longer existent as an organization since they were wiped out in Super Metroid. SM was supposed to be the last game in the series and so blows up the Space Pirates and the last Metroid. Fusion reaffirmed this with its manual stating the Space Pirates *once tried*, not the past tense, to use Metroids in their schemes and Other M also made it explicit in its intro. That along with another bunch of funky stuff) and I never see it argued as such outside of battleboarding circles that argue literally every piece of Metroid media is canon.
@@ymcan6427 ahahaha. Your Sakamoto quote its from different interview. He saying there that Metroid manga its another way to enjoying Metroid. Because manga and games its two completely different media. This not meaning that this manga not canon. Why are you constatly twisting facts?? Samus and Joey its not canon, because its was not guided by Sakamoto. This was just fanfiction and nothing less. Althought, Samus and Joey never was mentioned in the games. None element from this manga was finded in Metroid games, that maded Sakamoto. But the fact, that Metroid E-manga was the core foundation for such titles like Other M, Samus Returns, Dread its not even need debating.
The manga actually is canon. The point of referencing interpretation is to imply that the manga contains material meant to make the manga marketable, whereas, major events of said manga actually happened and play an important role in the games, which don't contradict, but confirm those events. Every character in the manga, never referenced ever again, is market-material to sell, whereas, the actual story, the plot, the driving device of the manga is the actual canon of the manga. Interpretation only means "This is how it is presented," not "This is how it is." the zero mission game clearly lacks a lot of elements, but the core plot is the same as the manga-- even forgetting the 'Zero Mission' part of the manga, Dread elaborates on the origin story of Samus, which the manga explores before everything happens. This past was prologue, but it was definitely canon. The only real manga material that's given rise to inspirational ideas, while not being explicit, confirmed, referenced or acknowledged canon in and of itself? Samus and Joey. This is story material meant to market or promote the IP as a brand. Its success and following sequels, the 'Series of Joe' is not canon, but a LOT of what happened in the manga, in some form or another, was adapted into canon. One writer, the 'Zero Mission' canon, was acknowledged and honored especially in the games, with a story that was made to mesh-well with the lore and history. The other writer wrote 'Joey,' a kid who can survive missiles from samus, without dying. The purpose of Joey is not necessarily to be a gag character, but the writer tried to MAKE IT FIT into the timeline, which is why it's placed after Super Metroid, rather than simply being outed as "Alternate Universe." Its placement is called a setting, which all writers use, but I digress. There's a clear implication that it happened after the death of "Metroid the Kid," because Joey, himself, was a child. It plays on a mother-like fantasy of Samus atoning for what happened on Zebes. The plot is originally driven as Samus trying to keep Joey safe, but eventually mentoring him up until adulthood, where he could carry himself. While, at the same time, the plot enjoys 'trying' to fit into a timeline, but Joey is NEVER acknowledged in canon, ever. Maybe cause the character literally cannot fit in a metroid setting, but Manga is about suspension of disbelief, to MAKE the setting and plot work and function. The IDEA of Joey might've influenced canon, but major events aren't point-for-point a representation of Joey in the games. Yet, the ZM manga is.
You realize that Zero Mission invalidates like 80% of the manga by saying that the Mother Brain kill order was her first battle ever on Zebes, right? It's not the same core plot at all, there's two entirely separate Zebes missions. You have to cut out all but 2 chapters of the manga to even attempt to make the thing work with how massively it clashes with the games.
@@JacobNintendoNerd99 I disagree with that. They are the same core plot. Samus Aran's first battle on Zebes, officially, was the one where she returns home, discovers something wasn't right about her own environment, so she investigates where her directive came from. For the better part of the manga, what constituted a mission for 'her' was implied to be a patrol or a few observative jobs, not necessarily arrests or chases. She was in the military police; but the biggest role she had was that of a cadet, fresh out of an academy, getting first-hand experience before heavy responsibility could lie upon her. You're goddamn right, Zebes is her first mission-- the other missions constituted being benched in order to learn, but Zebes was a moment of action in order to enforce. She wasn't watching someone else do her work, she used her own hands and did something. A few battles, but no operation, prior to Zebes, is hardly a mission. Core plot, as you stated: "The Mother Brain kill order was her first battle ever on Zebes" Game Synapsis: "Planet Zebes... I called this place home once, in peaceful times, long before evil haunted the caverns below. Now I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here... My so-called Zero Mission." If you refer to any extremely, definitively literal sense, you could say Samus' first battle, period, was when she was two fucking years old, what of it?! Samus' first battle, symbolically and meaningfully, was on Zebes, not against one cog in a machine, but the machine, itself. Not one pirate. Not a small crew. Not a fair militia. Mother Brain doesn't compare to a robber on the street-- a scuffle is still a battle, but you wouldn't say a soldier 'fought' if they never saw a war. You wouldn't say a survivor 'survived,' if they were never put in a real position of risk. You trying to dismiss the manga based on THAT argument is exactly the problem. Too-literal and you don't understand writing or storytelling. The battle, if anything, is a metaphor. It's the first moment in her life that could've jump-started her career. Without taking this chance, she wouldn't have been acknowledged. And it's arrogant to presume only Samus got the distress call. It's pretentious to assume she was "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope"'d like she was inherently important only to serve the plot. She answered the call because she's familiar with the planet and was well on her way to visiting it-- others may respond, but for the sake of plot, she was a first responder, not an only responder. The reason the game doesn't involve the entire federation armada is because of game limitations. Of course, while Fusion had deeper cutscenes, it still didn't outright hold your hand, visually. It might've told you, or led you to believe something, but Fusion kept external factors very vague. You know she's rescued by the federation, you are allowed to see a few soldiers, a facility, but nothing unimportant to the self-contained story. No devices that don't carry the plot along. That's how the games are. To compare the game to the manga assumes one style of writing a game takes away from the context provided by the manga. And Fusion already alludes to the manga. Dread alludes to the manga. Hell, Dread's subtext all but confirms the manga's weight in the entire series, rather than just the early parts of it. And if you cut out those chapters, you take away from Dread's plot, which is carried by those pages. Again, arrogant to assume one thing doesn't pertain to the other. But, I needn't explain the principle, further. The manga was officially commissioned by Nintendo, who asked several people to write a story that would eventually be published on Nintendo's behalf. Saying the owners of Metroid own the series, yet the material pertaining to that series is not canon is not a real argument, either. The entire "You are on the fucking Nintendo counsel, yet we do not grant you the rank of canon" is really not a valid argument, unless said writer had no affiliation with them in the first place. Someone capable of authoring was paid to author-- you think a none-writer could've written the same manga, better? You don't know whether the FIRST writer didn't have help constructing the one we got, but because 'Mike Hunt" produced the pages, presumably a real-practiced and gifted writer, and not "Yoshio Sakamoto," who could tell a story, but lacks prose and clever word-play, the manga isn't 'true' because it's not 'shit,' whereas, it's none-canon, purely because it was produced just adjacent to Sakamoto, isn't written by Sakamoto, and 'isn't shit.' So, two arguments on the table. A. "Licensed but not produced by a lead designer." B. "The manga contextualizes pixels, therefore I trust the pixels more than the context." Metroid fucking Dread still uses said context, you lemming.
@@AnjnShan Can I ask what exactly Metroid Dread takes from the manga? Because all of what I'm aware Dread takes from the manga supposedly, the manga took from the Super Metroid Nintendo Power comic. Is that canon too? Also, the "first mission" thing is *not* the only argument against the manga's canonicity. Maybe give the video we're under a rewatch- it seems like it's been 2 months for you, so it might be helpful to refresh yourself on the arguments. Dread, for example, does not work with the manga. The entire Thoha backstory doesn't work unless you assume Quiet Robe was just... lying about being the only spared Thoha. Also! Samus was the only responder, as the Zero Mission manual plainly states: "As a last resort, the Federation decided on a risky strategy: to send a **lone** space hunter to penetrate the pirate base..." Samus *was* "only hope"d by the Federation. It's not pretentious to assume something the manual spells out explicitly. "Licensed but not produced by a lead designer." Yes, this means it isn't canon. Licensed media very rarely is. As some other examples of media Nintendo licensed, what about Prima guides, frequently riddled with errors? What about the CDi Zelda games? Licensed does not inherently mean canon, precisely *because* the actual writers behind the Metroid franchise had no input. I don't know why what we're given as "pixels" is somehow a less valid source despite literally being the primary media of the series. And those "pixels" are *already* contextualized- through what we're shown in-game, through scan logs, through character dialogue when it exists, and through the manuals. The manga contradicts this existing context. It doesn't fit within the setting. And the context that Dread uses didn't originate in the manga. K-2L, Samus's Chozo DNA, etc. all came from the Nintendo Power Super Metroid comic.
@@cad4871 I shouldn't have to answer that, if you actually played, knew a damn thing about, or were engaged with anything related to dread. Hell, I shouldn't have to explain that about any of the games, if you understood any of them at all. Of course, not everyone listens to podcasts or lore people. At least you're the opposite of a fanatic of the wrong things. You seem clueless about a lot, especially context. > Nintendo, the company, not only commissioned people to write their own take on Metroid, but the one who impressed Nintendo was allowed to publish it literally alongside the release of the game. Nintendo didn't only commission the work, they advertised the manga, themselves. > Zero Mission's art gallery acknowledges the manga in subtle ways, but by no means will I presume to think it is the most compelling proof. A lot of the later installments, especially Dread, go further than a few glimpses of 'something.' > Metroid Fusion's art gallery uses the same art style and direction, the same "Samus" and the same manga references. Many referendums, many allusions, many implications, they could've used any other art, made their own, suggested a different DEPICTION, yet, they did not. Far from it-- what I am saying is that, the chances of using the same depiction, twice, is low, but calling canon art, inside the game, none-canon, within the game, while acknowledging it all the same, really doesn't make more sense because of it. It's not a coincidence that Nintendo advertised the manga, it's not more of a coincidence that they ACKNOWLEDGE it on top of it. You can't have it both ways, is it canon, or is it not? Acknowledged-as-happening is a confession that it is canon, that's the definition of officiating material as official. > Metroid Fusion's plot is somewhat centered AROUND the manga's time frame. Raven Beak alludes to the fact that he was one of the subjects that gave Samus their genes, implying that Raven 'created' Samus. And the manga already covers this idea, by implying that somebody, notably, Gray Voice, helped Samus evolve into someone who could survive the environment of Zebes. "Daughter..." > Metroid Dread's art goes into more detail in outright canonizing the manga by TELLING YOU, not just showing you. You can still see perspective art on what happened in its own canon, but the plot of Dread, revolving around the idea or meaning of this art, is important. Raven orders the slaughter of a tribe of Chozo, while whoever remained was forced into a position of severe disadvantage. This slaughter happens some years after Raven has his DNA injected into her, while the Chozo were fighting X, the implication of the Chozo being a proud and majestic species[Manga] would imply they were a thriving race, at least enough to visit her colony at one point, possibly thousands of other homes. And years later, because of said slaughter, they suddenly fade into obscurity. In the manga, they're thriving, up until Samus grows up. At which point, the chozo entrust the galaxy to her and the remaining metroids that, presumably, Mother Brain was trying to preserve in the event of X returning. And they acknowledge their extinction, both acknowledging that they are no longer capable, the thriving, smart, intelligent race of conquerers, who ruled the galaxy, of stopping the parasites, but also acknowledging that Samus was quite literally the only genetically-engineered person with even a fraction of the physical or mental attributes or potential to survive X. She is fittingly the last Chozo, but she's the furthest thing from a pure-blood. The Manga doesn't contradict the lore at all, acknowledging the Chozo wasn't a 700-year endangered species, but that they were at least proud and confident enough to co-exist in a society. And then, shit hits the fan and it's left to Dream to elaborate. Dread didn't need to explain that Raven fucking killed them all, but it did-- if the Chozo was already a dying species, we wouldn't need to write them off as 'slaughtered,' You could simply write them off as 'desperate' or tell their desperate plight, an attempt to survive. And the reason for this decision was because of story direction-- what better story than one that directly ties into the manga? Even the Manga plays its own game off by getting to the point! Samus investigated-- She found Ridley and had a dodgy, uncomfortable feeling, then shot them-- The manga CONTEXTUALIZES the 'core plot' of the series, by depicting Ridley as her nemesis, clearly something she needs to overcome, but also showing how he ESCAPES in their first real fight. Samus overcame Ridley, but she didn't rid herself of him-- Whether you acknowledge the primes games or not is beside the point-- Prime 3 kills Ridley off, so she can absorb his phazon-jizz and save everybody from radioactive blue magma. The manga's emphatic point about the value of the metroids is still acknowledged in fusion, outside of the art, by literally introducing the X parasites. Metroids WERE the manga's point, the Chozo were engineering a biological weapon that could handle them, but this happened some time after the slaughter began and the culling of the species was successfully done. Originally, the Chozo wanted to blow the damn planet of SR-388 up, because they couldn't fight the parasites off. When their numbers began to dwindle, and Raven began to survey and become the planet's hero. As a last-ditch effort to delay everybody's higher risk, metroids were integrated into the ecosystem, in order to combat the problem, because Samus was not the chosen one. Samus was a trump card for the entire plot, only becoming important as everything else becomes unviable. The manga doesn't play her off as a chosen one, either. The Chozo didn't exalt her, the federation relegateed her to patrol duty and not necessarily to capture killers and pirates, but probably to stop high-risk shoplifters and space-theft auto, at the most. While the games 'are' canon,' the reason future games tied back into the manga had a lot to do with context: Samus Returns is the most direct connection to dread, which loops back into the manga, which contextualizes what was stated by Raven, pertaining to background events, happening in the manga. Advertising the manga becomes less important, but it still happened. Using a game booklet is not a compelling argument, either. Some of it is flavor text and not necessarily pertaining to the final-draft of the plot. The booklet is often one of the first five drafts, but the game, itself, is canon because it's a final draft. So, no. Using handbooks, while it could very well be true and canon, isn't a credible source in either direction. Flavor text without CONTEXT is not valuable. A story without continuity is not necessarily canon. The manga has continuity, the games continue from the manga, but the manga isn't a main-canon, it's only context, or flavor-text with actual, supported weight and value. Know the difference, would you; I didn't say the games are less canon because of the manga, I didn't say the manga was more canon because of the games. I say the manga's canon is supported by the games' canon. One hand washes the other, in that way. As for a handbook, maybe that's exactly how it went, from a certain point of view, probably from unspoken plot armor, unemphasized off-page requests, or someone realizing that they cannot breath the atmosphere of Zebes, because they lack the "Samus-Got-Injected-By-Alien-Formula" arc required to do so. Context is a virtue, but conjecture is still theoretical. Maybe the booklet is just as 'wrong' in the face value AND the deeper, given context of what it's conveying. Maybe it's just objectively wrong even from the second opinion; "Nobody can breath the air, the gravity is too heavy," by the information being simply... not correct. See? Flavor text only works if there's a reason WHY it works. It works because something needed to be written as a first draft, even if it's not what the final draft of a story became. And when something is licensed by Nintendo, the owner of an IP, to permit using said IP by a third party, the IP doesn't stop being Nintendo's. Metroid doesn't stop belonging to the company that gave paid permission. Nintendo wasn't even paid for the license-- they literally had someone PAID to work on the material, so another writer didn't lose thirty bucks to draw the art-- they were GIVEN thirty dollars to see what they could do in order to earn that money. Nintendo's advertising that marketable material can't mean it's not canon material, it would deeply, deeply imply that the person who drew up the panels was getting their work canonized, because it, out of any number of others, was the one Nintendo felt was worth advertising. And this is NOT true for other manga. Samus and Joey wasn't advertised alongside a game-product, referenced by the first manga, or any of the games, alluded to or easter-egg'd by canon material, ties into canon material or has a real place in canon. For instance, Fusion and Dread still reference the 'Zero Mission' manga, often narratively just as well as artfully, whereas, if you swore to me that Joey was a real character, I'd want you to point of the character in any of the games, their name in any lore, their PLANET in any provable canon, their ART in any proven canon, or their place in the timeline, explained in any canon medium. One manga is outright NOT canon, but,. even if neither were canon, the ZM manga is more so than Joey's. Hell-- We know Joey's manga isn't canon and loves to elaborate in showing... that it doesn't take itself seriously or realistically enough to WANT to be canon.
@@AnjnShan "You seem clueless about a lot, especially context." wow, thanks. great ad hominem. "> Nintendo, the company, not only commissioned people to write their own take on Metroid, but the one who impressed Nintendo was allowed to publish it literally alongside the release of the game. Nintendo didn't only commission the work, they advertised the manga, themselves." Yes, and? Not everything Nintendo advertises is automatically canon. Nintendo Power stuff certainly isn't, Metroid Prime Pinball isn't, the Zelda mangas aren't, etc etc. Just bc Nintendo commissioned it doesn't mean they're beholden to it or that they have to accept it as canon. Most of Zero Mission's art gallery originated in Metroid Fusion's Child Mode, which predates all but the first one or two chapters of the manga. And the manga's depiction of the events in that gallery actually *contradicts* the games, as you would know if you watched the video we are under. Samus was discovered in a different place and Samus's father died in a different place. If the manga was canon, you'd think they'd take care to follow it... and before you mention Old Bird, he's from the Nintendo Power comic first so that's not evidence. "And the manga already covers this idea," the manga and the games having similar concepts doesn't mean it's canon. Again, the Nintendo Power comic mentions this stuff. Is the Nintendo Power comic canon? " Dread didn't need to explain that Raven fucking killed them all, but it did-- if the Chozo was already a dying species, we wouldn't need to write them off as 'slaughtered,'" Raven Beak didn't kill all the Chozo. He killed all but one of the *Thoha*. None of the Chozo that raised Samus were Thoha, except potentially Quiet Robe, the one spared Thoha. " Prime 3 kills Ridley off, so she can absorb his phazon-jizz and save everybody from radioactive blue magma." Ridley doesn't die in Prime 3. Phazon beings can explode themselves briefly. It's an attack in multiple Dark Samus battles. "The manga's emphatic point about the value of the metroids is still acknowledged in fusion, outside of the art, by literally introducing the X parasites." Again, most of the manga released after Fusion. It's reiterating points from Fusion, not the other way around. And the Metroids being used for good debuted in Super Metroid anyway. " the Chozo were engineering a biological weapon that could handle them, but this happened some time after the slaughter began and the culling of the species was successfully done." Did you... play Samus Returns? The Thoha made the Metroids to combat the X. Only after that did Raven Beak kill them all. This is explicit in the order of the Samus Returns memories, which all lead up to the slaughtering of the Thoha by Raven Beak. Raven Beak is *not* a hero. This entire paragraph is not supported by any evidence from the games whatsoever, actually. The manga may provide context, but it's non-canon context because it contradicts the games. The manga's context actually *contradicts* the games. According to the manga, all Metroid development happened on Zebes, when Samus Returns directly shows it happening on SR388. And, again, Nintendo *can* advertise non-canon media. They advertised Metroid Prime Pinball, and for other series, Zelda mangas, the Mario manga, Mario + Rabbids, and the like. Whether a media is advertised has no bearing on its canonicity. Most of your points in favor of the manga's canonicity are addressed in the video that we are under. Your points that aren't addressed in the video all also apply to the Nintendo Power comic. Is that canon?
Bruh. Dude, Japanese version of Other M is true canon to the manga. English localization was incorrect. Your video is a mistake. You can delete it. And yes, manga is canon, because Zero Mission and this manga too tight bonded. This manga was even in promotional materials for Other M on Nintendo site. Even Dread is true successor and conclusion to narrative that was in the manga with Chozo.
dude, did you... watch the video? everything you brought up is addressed there. Seriously, everything- except the now inaccessible Other M promotional materials. If you have a way to verify those, I'd be very interested, given that they seem to be lost media.
@@seandwalsh3 em, this wasn't adressed at all. He simply twisted the facts to his advantage. During the video, I pierced my forehead from his stupidity or an unsuccessful attempt at trolling. But you took everything at face value and took his word for it, the nonsense that he was talking about here.
@@dis_inferno9173 It’s the same interview, the reason why translations from news sources can’t be trusted, is because they have to be tackled very quickly. Errors do happen very often. Some good examples come from Treehouse Aunoma interviews, Masahiro Sakurai Smash directs or even Polygon’s i terview with Masuda over Pokemon Sword and Shield’s Pokedex and animation developments. This isn’t quite like Zelda interviews where Shigeru Miyamoto and Eiji Aunouma have conflicting comments on things and we have to specify the facts. Much like Aunouma’s comments on the Zelda manga, to avoid discrediting the artist’s reputation with the Metroid Z-manga, Sakamoto wants people to enjoy the manga as another way to enjoy Metroid. Much like a theoretical adaptation of Metroid to film or a series, the manga just isn’t congruent with the games. It’s a fantastic story and it’s themes are well planned out, however every major story moment every theme and plot thread is the complete opposite from the games. I want to know what the obsession is with Metroid fans forcing an adaption of a piece of media into the games lore- where it in no sense of the word, fits consistently. I’m going to give translators the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to be as accurate and non-biased as possible. Which is clearly the case here with this video as well.
The video is fantastic. Nothing on the topic is as in depth like it on the internet. It puts every “History of Metroid” timeline video to shame.
Indeed
Mate, you are a goddamn hero for making this video and digging up all this insanely obscure information.
How in the world did you find the Japanese scans for the Metroid Prime games? I've looked for those for a while but never found them. You could make an entire video on the sheer number of differences there are between the English and Japanese versions of Prime. Just that information about the Beam Pirates actually being Phazon-infused experimental soldiers in Japanese is huge and fixes the plothole in the American version of them using Chozo beam weapons which is obviously not the case.
They're hosted for anyone to read on the Metroid Database.
Perhaps the Beam Troopers could be a combination of both cases, with them being infused with Phazon and having access to reverse-engineered Chozo weapons
I love Meroid
Deep commentary
The thing about the manga that’s so funny to me is everyone thinking the chozo are such great people for *checks notes* forcing a kid into harsh training? Lmao if they were actually trying to be good guardians they’d let Samus just be a kid
great video that i hope gets more traction, because god knows we need it
The bulk of your analysis format involves dissecting narrative inconsistencies, which I don't think is an applicable way of determining canon, at least in the metroid way of doing things (though I think your points about how Sakamoto discusses his view on the manga have more merit as the information reaches closer to a direct answer). I say this simply because the Prime games have been stated to be very much canon by Sakamoto himself, despite numerous narrative inconsistencies within that as well when aligned with the 2d timeline.
- Metroid prime (creature) was said to have been within the meteor (called the worm) when we know that the chozo created the metroids.
- The space pirates in the prime games are portrayed as being highly resourceful and self reliant with a versatile ability to adapt to situations despite Samus' interferences. meanwhile, the Space pirates in the 2d side are treated more as you stated, feral creatures that follow an alpha to guide them.
- Ridley has been showed to have clearly burst into energy at the end of his omega ridley boss battle, however, he comes back as proteus ridley in samus returns, and a complete ridley in super metroid.
The reason for this comes from retro studios not being informed on the inner workings of the 2d franchise, combined with them being given a wide berth to do their own creative things with their end of the metroid universe. Dread does in fact reference the Manga (or super metroid comic, either works) by using the respective format for chozo names, addressing the rarity in chozo wings, and raven beak proclaiming himself as samus' genetic father arguably being a nod to grey voice and his connection to Samus. This doesn't confirm the manga to be canon per say, but it does suggest someone on the Dread team was certainly taking a read.
I can't help but assume Sakamoto no longer holds up his point about the Zebes colonization happening after SR388 as canon. Because if this is true, then we have no reason to be believe that Samus was ever raised on zebes by chozo, as the thoha would have been massacred (save for quiet robe) before the migration. From what I heard, Sakamoto once said that samus lost her metroid dna at the end of fusion when she absorbed the sa-x core, only for that to be retconned for the metroid transformation story of dread. Also take a look at the Dread cutscene with young samus in the fluid tank, the two shadows in the background could very well be old bird and quiet robe based on their (obscure but present) details. It is hard to make out by I think it was meant to be that way.
Ultimately, I think Sakamoto is just trying to keep his eyes on the main games, leaving third parties to work out the other aspects of the metroid franchise. I feel like the story of metroid travels a really confusing and bumpy road as a result of communication issues and gradual change in storytelling methods. I'd say a clear and concise vision to map out the entirety of the franchise story would be appreciated from nintendo to finally set things straight (which you could argue Sakamoto is trying to do).
So while I don't see eye to eye with your primary method of reaching your conclusion, I do appreciate the hard research you have implemented into your video and deserves much attention. Keep up the good work!
Ok, so... respectfully, pretty much all of these points are wrong or show a serious lack of understanding.
-Metroid Prime was never said to come along with the meteor, which is you seem to be getting at. In fact, Prime 3 explicitly points out that there were NOT Metroids on Phaaze and Metroid Primes did not come from Phaaze, as the Metroids on Phaaze were brought there by the Space Pirates under Dark Samus's orders, which are the ones encountered ingame. We are simply told it didn't come from Phaaze, and it didn't come from the space pirates. We are left simply to conclude a Metroid was on Tallon IV with the Talloric Chozo 50 years ago, which isn't a contradiction but is at best a loose plot thread. There's no outright contradiction here anywhere.
-The Space Pirates are not a single species (in fact there are 3 separate known species in the games with a few implied species), and Retro was specifically banned from using the 2D Space Pirates (the Zebesians). In fact, full models of the Zebesians in Prime 1 were made, as well as animations, before Nintendo told Retro they couldn't do that. In fact, the specific reasoning given back in 2000 was that Zebesians are not intelligent. The Prime games feature an entirely distinct species in the same Space Pirate organization known as Urtagian space pirates, which are intelligent. One single Zebesian appears at all in the Prime games, in a tank in Lab Hydra in Prime 1, and it's very easy to miss. But it does help to emphasize the difference between the two species.
-Being able to destabilize yourself into Phazon energy like that when wounded and then reform elsewhere is an explicit ability of leviathan guardian-tier phazon organisms. Dark Samus does it twice in cutscenes in Prime 2, and is shown reforming once in Torvus. In gameplay, she's actually so friggin casual about this that blowing herself up across the room is part of her moveset for her second and third fights! So, it's pretty clear that Ridley is doing that if you pay attention throughout the games, and Retro staff once mentioned they were specifically forbidden to kill Ridley onscreen in the Prime games in an interview a while back.
-Retro was given creative freedom, but not as much as you seem to think. They were specifically monitored by the Japanese side of Nintendo, and with Prime 2 and 3, lore scans had to be submitted to Nintendo, and were sent back with edits enforced by the Japanese branch to make things mesh; a Kiwitalks interview has a mention that most of the time spent by the story people on the trilogy from Retro's side was actually implmenting these mandated edits. And then of course, there's also things like the aforementioned ban on using Zebesians in the Prime games. There's also claims among staff for Prime Hunters and the trilogy that they were given some vague "Metroid bible" by Nintendo to adhere to eventually, seemingly around the time of Prime 2. As for Prime 1, well... Nintendo basically trashed the original lore of the gamecube NTSC-U version written by Nate Bihldorff entirely and had the Japanese side of Nintendo write entirely new Japanese lore for Prime 1's Japanese release. All non-English versions of Prime 1, as well as Prime 2 and 3, treat that Japanese version of Prime 1 as gospel, implementing Japanese exclusive things like the pirates' PED Suit technology and Tallon Metroids from Japanese Prime 1's plot.
-"Because if this is true, then we have no reason to be believe that Samus was ever raised on zebes by chozo, as the thoha would have been massacred (save for quiet robe) before the migration." Ok, again respectfully, what exactly is the logic here? This is entirely a non sequitr. The only thing we know is that Samus was not raised by Thoha Chozo. This does not contradict her being raised by Chozo period, just that she was not raised by Thoha chozo.
-"From what I heard, Sakamoto once said that samus lost her metroid dna at the end of fusion when she absorbed the sa-x core, only for that to be retconned for the metroid transformation story of dread." I'm not gonna rib you too hard on this one since it's an honest mistake, but that's a mistranslation. What Sakamoto says is essentially that absorbing the SA-X made her Metroid DNA become extremely controlled and in a much more dormant state. Which is necessary; the Japanese version of Fusion makes it very explicit that if Samus were to fire the Ice Beam in her state prior to making the DNA more dormant, it would kill her because attempting to fire a shot would freeze her from the inside. This is also likely why the Ice Beam was never considered for inclusion in Dread, in favor of Ice Missiles.
-"Ultimately, I think Sakamoto is just trying to keep his eyes on the main games, leaving third parties to work out the other aspects of the metroid franchise. I feel like the story of metroid travels a really confusing and bumpy road as a result of communication issues and gradual change in storytelling methods. I'd say a clear and concise vision to map out the entirety of the franchise story would be appreciated from nintendo to finally set things straight (which you could argue Sakamoto is trying to do)." Sakamoto has been said to have supervised all installments of the prime series except for Hunters, where his involvement is never alluded to and simply Tanebe's involvement is known. He specifically wanted to "ensure everything fit in the same narrative" and wanted to weed out any major contradictions. He's also said more recently in a Dread interview that the story of Dread took more inspiration from the Prime games and Other M, and his involvement in those games, between its initial cancellation and its eventual release, with regards to the tweaks made to the original story (which albeit, was still "largely intact" from the original 2005 era narrative of Dread). He's probably not penning the plots of those games directly, but he's at least looking over their shoulder ever since Prime 1's development debacle.
Hopefully that clarifies the understanding of certain things; ultimately, the games really don't tend to have contradictions that aren't addressed by the two remakes for the most part, and most contradictions that do exist only exist due to errors in English translations. The manga, however, still poses major issues even in its source text, as opposed to the games which more or less work together flawlessly when using the remakes over the originals. There's not really narrative inconsistencies between Prime and the 2D games; just translation errors
@@JacobNintendoNerd99 Alright, you seem to know your stuff and I've come across someone else mentioning some of your details today. Are some of these from UA-cam interviews or websites? I'm particularly interested in Sakamoto talking of Dread's connections to prime and other m.
So here's the thing, i'm pretty sure nobody (especially in the developement team) cares what an old manual said. I'm not saying that your comparisons of the manga and the manuals is right or wrong, i'm pretty sure some of your arguments aren't correct, but that doesn't matter. If anything, the manga is a retcon.
Next, the fusion endings a re more of a collage, i'm pretty sure they are not supposed to represent one whole event that actually happened.
Other Ms story in english is not to be trusted. These games actually trying to reference the manga makes it more canon. With SR it gets difficult, it should be obvious that there might have been a second retcon. I actually still not sure if there is an actual problem with the timeline created by SR, but if there is, it must be a retcon either to include aeion or because Sakamoto wanted to change the story as he didn't work on the original. This retcon continues for Dread, though your argument for Dread was really weak honestly.
Despite me really not agreeing with you at all, i do appreciate the effort you put into this video. You rarely see someone do this big of a deep dive into metroid lore even though a big part of this video is more meta stuff than actual lore.
If the first claim was true at all, the manuals wouldn't be quoted verbatim in Other M's Japanese version and Samus Returns's intro, to list just two bigger times among many other smaller references, nor would promotional material constantly bring up the manuals' story contents when talking about the older games. The manuals are essentially considered part of the games themselves as far as canon is concerned to Nintendo and Sakamoto. Secondly, he uses the Japanese version of Other M as more prevalent over the English version and quotes the Japanese versions quite frequently, making it pretty clear that he's not necessarily trusting the English version.
In fact, the Japanese versions actually mesh even worse than the English ones because Japanese Fusion contradicts the manga more severely for points brought up in the video, such as Adam and Samus's history being different from the manga in Fusion. And then there's the reasoning for Samus becoming a bounty hunter being different between the manga and Other M.
Zero Mission references Zebes Invasion Order pretty heavily, and the manga references the Super Metroid comic pretty heavily, are both of those canon by this logic? The games don't really even reference anything super specific to the manga and mainly reference stuff introduced by the Super Metroid comic.
Nick van der linden send me
This is the truth
👏 p̳r̳o̳m̳o̳s̳m̳
Here the proof why Metroid manga is canon ua-cam.com/video/RUQAgIOfX8Q/v-deo.html timestamp 7:55
In this interview Sakamoto said this "Si, estuve encima de la creacion de este manga y pienso que el mundo de Metroid y la personalidad de Samus estan bien transmitidos." Which on English translation this gonna mean this "Yes, I was on top of the creation of this manga and I think that the world of Metroid and the personality of Samus are well conveyed."
Hello there, thanks for the source, though I do not appreciate the very hostile tone you take by coming into my comment section. Nonetheless, it took me a while to fully sus this thing out since we of course want to verify the original Japanese. According to the Spanish subtitles, he answered the following:
“Sí, estuve encima de la creación de este manga y piense que el mundo de Metroid y la personalidad de Samus estan bien transmitidos.”
"Yes, I was behind the creation of this manga and I thought the world of Metroid and Samus's personality were well transmited.”
Got the translation here from a Spanish speaker. This does seem to imply his involvement quite bluntly, however Sakamoto gives his answer in Japanese, which was translated for the Spanish subtitles and is here translated to English. To avoid a game of telephone, it is necessary to look at the original Japanese he spoke:
“あの、この漫画を描くときに僕は監修していますのでこの、まあ、ある意味漫画という表現のサムスであり、メトロイドの世界のいろんな話が描かている”(audio transcription by Sidier from the video who is often active on Discord with things relating to Nintendo and Japanese)
“Well, I was series supervisor when the manga was drawn, so... Well, you could say it's a way to express Samus in manga format, and depict varying stories about Metroid's universe."
Which is a lot less committal and seems to imply the Spanish subtitles mistranslate quite a bit; Sakamoto merely states he was the Metroid series’ supervisor at the time and says the manga is a way to express an interpretation of the Metroid universe. This is also in-line with his other statement discussed in the video concerning the manga. He could also have had a vague supervising role with this manga in all honesty, but he has never said as such. We do know he at least had to approve some things in the Samus and Joey manga as said by that manga’s author in an interview with the Shinesparkers website:
“Because of that, we went to the Nintendo’s Kyoto headquarters and we directly negotiated with the staff and the producer, Sakamoto. After that, this story in the Metroid universe featuring a child could finally be made as a side-story, Metroid: Samus and Joey.”
So even if he had a minor supervising role I doubt that would mean much for the manga being canon or not, since the same process happened with Samus and Joey and that clearly isn’t (the manga is supposed to be set between Super Metroid and Fusion, but features the Space Pirates’ organization, which at that timeframe in the series are no longer existent as an organization since they were wiped out in Super Metroid. SM was supposed to be the last game in the series and so blows up the Space Pirates and the last Metroid. Fusion reaffirmed this with its manual stating the Space Pirates *once tried*, not the past tense, to use Metroids in their schemes and Other M also made it explicit in its intro. That along with another bunch of funky stuff) and I never see it argued as such outside of battleboarding circles that argue literally every piece of Metroid media is canon.
@@ymcan6427 ahahaha. Your Sakamoto quote its from different interview. He saying there that Metroid manga its another way to enjoying Metroid. Because manga and games its two completely different media. This not meaning that this manga not canon. Why are you constatly twisting facts?? Samus and Joey its not canon, because its was not guided by Sakamoto. This was just fanfiction and nothing less. Althought, Samus and Joey never was mentioned in the games. None element from this manga was finded in Metroid games, that maded Sakamoto. But the fact, that Metroid E-manga was the core foundation for such titles like Other M, Samus Returns, Dread its not even need debating.
That is not proof the manga is canon, that's him saying he likes it.
FINALLY!!!! I FOUND A UA-cam VIDEO WITH EVEN THE SLIGHTEST GRASP ON THE LORE!!!!!
Ahem, sorry I'm just glad someone finally made a video about this.
The manga actually is canon. The point of referencing interpretation is to imply that the manga contains material meant to make the manga marketable, whereas, major events of said manga actually happened and play an important role in the games, which don't contradict, but confirm those events. Every character in the manga, never referenced ever again, is market-material to sell, whereas, the actual story, the plot, the driving device of the manga is the actual canon of the manga.
Interpretation only means "This is how it is presented," not "This is how it is."
the zero mission game clearly lacks a lot of elements, but the core plot is the same as the manga-- even forgetting the 'Zero Mission' part of the manga, Dread elaborates on the origin story of Samus, which the manga explores before everything happens. This past was prologue, but it was definitely canon.
The only real manga material that's given rise to inspirational ideas, while not being explicit, confirmed, referenced or acknowledged canon in and of itself? Samus and Joey. This is story material meant to market or promote the IP as a brand. Its success and following sequels, the 'Series of Joe' is not canon, but a LOT of what happened in the manga, in some form or another, was adapted into canon.
One writer, the 'Zero Mission' canon, was acknowledged and honored especially in the games, with a story that was made to mesh-well with the lore and history. The other writer wrote 'Joey,' a kid who can survive missiles from samus, without dying. The purpose of Joey is not necessarily to be a gag character, but the writer tried to MAKE IT FIT into the timeline, which is why it's placed after Super Metroid, rather than simply being outed as "Alternate Universe."
Its placement is called a setting, which all writers use, but I digress. There's a clear implication that it happened after the death of "Metroid the Kid," because Joey, himself, was a child. It plays on a mother-like fantasy of Samus atoning for what happened on Zebes. The plot is originally driven as Samus trying to keep Joey safe, but eventually mentoring him up until adulthood, where he could carry himself. While, at the same time, the plot enjoys 'trying' to fit into a timeline, but Joey is NEVER acknowledged in canon, ever. Maybe cause the character literally cannot fit in a metroid setting, but Manga is about suspension of disbelief, to MAKE the setting and plot work and function. The IDEA of Joey might've influenced canon, but major events aren't point-for-point a representation of Joey in the games. Yet, the ZM manga is.
You realize that Zero Mission invalidates like 80% of the manga by saying that the Mother Brain kill order was her first battle ever on Zebes, right?
It's not the same core plot at all, there's two entirely separate Zebes missions. You have to cut out all but 2 chapters of the manga to even attempt to make the thing work with how massively it clashes with the games.
@@JacobNintendoNerd99 I disagree with that. They are the same core plot. Samus Aran's first battle on Zebes, officially, was the one where she returns home, discovers something wasn't right about her own environment, so she investigates where her directive came from.
For the better part of the manga, what constituted a mission for 'her' was implied to be a patrol or a few observative jobs, not necessarily arrests or chases. She was in the military police; but the biggest role she had was that of a cadet, fresh out of an academy, getting first-hand experience before heavy responsibility could lie upon her. You're goddamn right, Zebes is her first mission-- the other missions constituted being benched in order to learn, but Zebes was a moment of action in order to enforce. She wasn't watching someone else do her work, she used her own hands and did something. A few battles, but no operation, prior to Zebes, is hardly a mission.
Core plot, as you stated:
"The Mother Brain kill order was her first battle ever on Zebes"
Game Synapsis:
"Planet Zebes... I called this place home once, in peaceful times, long before evil haunted the caverns below. Now I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here... My so-called Zero Mission."
If you refer to any extremely, definitively literal sense, you could say Samus' first battle, period, was when she was two fucking years old, what of it?!
Samus' first battle, symbolically and meaningfully, was on Zebes, not against one cog in a machine, but the machine, itself. Not one pirate. Not a small crew. Not a fair militia. Mother Brain doesn't compare to a robber on the street-- a scuffle is still a battle, but you wouldn't say a soldier 'fought' if they never saw a war. You wouldn't say a survivor 'survived,' if they were never put in a real position of risk.
You trying to dismiss the manga based on THAT argument is exactly the problem. Too-literal and you don't understand writing or storytelling. The battle, if anything, is a metaphor. It's the first moment in her life that could've jump-started her career. Without taking this chance, she wouldn't have been acknowledged. And it's arrogant to presume only Samus got the distress call. It's pretentious to assume she was "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope"'d like she was inherently important only to serve the plot.
She answered the call because she's familiar with the planet and was well on her way to visiting it-- others may respond, but for the sake of plot, she was a first responder, not an only responder. The reason the game doesn't involve the entire federation armada is because of game limitations. Of course, while Fusion had deeper cutscenes, it still didn't outright hold your hand, visually. It might've told you, or led you to believe something, but Fusion kept external factors very vague. You know she's rescued by the federation, you are allowed to see a few soldiers, a facility, but nothing unimportant to the self-contained story. No devices that don't carry the plot along. That's how the games are.
To compare the game to the manga assumes one style of writing a game takes away from the context provided by the manga. And Fusion already alludes to the manga. Dread alludes to the manga. Hell, Dread's subtext all but confirms the manga's weight in the entire series, rather than just the early parts of it.
And if you cut out those chapters, you take away from Dread's plot, which is carried by those pages. Again, arrogant to assume one thing doesn't pertain to the other.
But, I needn't explain the principle, further. The manga was officially commissioned by Nintendo, who asked several people to write a story that would eventually be published on Nintendo's behalf. Saying the owners of Metroid own the series, yet the material pertaining to that series is not canon is not a real argument, either.
The entire "You are on the fucking Nintendo counsel, yet we do not grant you the rank of canon" is really not a valid argument, unless said writer had no affiliation with them in the first place. Someone capable of authoring was paid to author-- you think a none-writer could've written the same manga, better? You don't know whether the FIRST writer didn't have help constructing the one we got, but because 'Mike Hunt" produced the pages, presumably a real-practiced and gifted writer, and not "Yoshio Sakamoto," who could tell a story, but lacks prose and clever word-play, the manga isn't 'true' because it's not 'shit,' whereas, it's none-canon, purely because it was produced just adjacent to Sakamoto, isn't written by Sakamoto, and 'isn't shit.'
So, two arguments on the table.
A. "Licensed but not produced by a lead designer."
B. "The manga contextualizes pixels, therefore I trust the pixels more than the context."
Metroid fucking Dread still uses said context, you lemming.
@@AnjnShan Can I ask what exactly Metroid Dread takes from the manga? Because all of what I'm aware Dread takes from the manga supposedly, the manga took from the Super Metroid Nintendo Power comic. Is that canon too?
Also, the "first mission" thing is *not* the only argument against the manga's canonicity. Maybe give the video we're under a rewatch- it seems like it's been 2 months for you, so it might be helpful to refresh yourself on the arguments. Dread, for example, does not work with the manga. The entire Thoha backstory doesn't work unless you assume Quiet Robe was just... lying about being the only spared Thoha.
Also! Samus was the only responder, as the Zero Mission manual plainly states: "As a last resort, the Federation decided on a risky strategy: to send a **lone** space hunter to penetrate the pirate base..." Samus *was* "only hope"d by the Federation. It's not pretentious to assume something the manual spells out explicitly.
"Licensed but not produced by a lead designer." Yes, this means it isn't canon. Licensed media very rarely is. As some other examples of media Nintendo licensed, what about Prima guides, frequently riddled with errors? What about the CDi Zelda games? Licensed does not inherently mean canon, precisely *because* the actual writers behind the Metroid franchise had no input.
I don't know why what we're given as "pixels" is somehow a less valid source despite literally being the primary media of the series. And those "pixels" are *already* contextualized- through what we're shown in-game, through scan logs, through character dialogue when it exists, and through the manuals. The manga contradicts this existing context. It doesn't fit within the setting. And the context that Dread uses didn't originate in the manga. K-2L, Samus's Chozo DNA, etc. all came from the Nintendo Power Super Metroid comic.
@@cad4871 I shouldn't have to answer that, if you actually played, knew a damn thing about, or were engaged with anything related to dread. Hell, I shouldn't have to explain that about any of the games, if you understood any of them at all. Of course, not everyone listens to podcasts or lore people. At least you're the opposite of a fanatic of the wrong things. You seem clueless about a lot, especially context.
> Nintendo, the company, not only commissioned people to write their own take on Metroid, but the one who impressed Nintendo was allowed to publish it literally alongside the release of the game. Nintendo didn't only commission the work, they advertised the manga, themselves.
> Zero Mission's art gallery acknowledges the manga in subtle ways, but by no means will I presume to think it is the most compelling proof. A lot of the later installments, especially Dread, go further than a few glimpses of 'something.'
> Metroid Fusion's art gallery uses the same art style and direction, the same "Samus" and the same manga references. Many referendums, many allusions, many implications, they could've used any other art, made their own, suggested a different DEPICTION, yet, they did not. Far from it-- what I am saying is that, the chances of using the same depiction, twice, is low, but calling canon art, inside the game, none-canon, within the game, while acknowledging it all the same, really doesn't make more sense because of it. It's not a coincidence that Nintendo advertised the manga, it's not more of a coincidence that they ACKNOWLEDGE it on top of it. You can't have it both ways, is it canon, or is it not? Acknowledged-as-happening is a confession that it is canon, that's the definition of officiating material as official.
> Metroid Fusion's plot is somewhat centered AROUND the manga's time frame.
Raven Beak alludes to the fact that he was one of the subjects that gave Samus their genes, implying that Raven 'created' Samus. And the manga already covers this idea, by implying that somebody, notably, Gray Voice, helped Samus evolve into someone who could survive the environment of Zebes. "Daughter..."
> Metroid Dread's art goes into more detail in outright canonizing the manga by TELLING YOU, not just showing you. You can still see perspective art on what happened in its own canon, but the plot of Dread, revolving around the idea or meaning of this art, is important.
Raven orders the slaughter of a tribe of Chozo, while whoever remained was forced into a position of severe disadvantage. This slaughter happens some years after Raven has his DNA injected into her, while the Chozo were fighting X, the implication of the Chozo being a proud and majestic species[Manga] would imply they were a thriving race, at least enough to visit her colony at one point, possibly thousands of other homes.
And years later, because of said slaughter, they suddenly fade into obscurity.
In the manga, they're thriving, up until Samus grows up. At which point, the chozo entrust the galaxy to her and the remaining metroids that, presumably, Mother Brain was trying to preserve in the event of X returning.
And they acknowledge their extinction, both acknowledging that they are no longer capable, the thriving, smart, intelligent race of conquerers, who ruled the galaxy, of stopping the parasites, but also acknowledging that Samus was quite literally the only genetically-engineered person with even a fraction of the physical or mental attributes or potential to survive X. She is fittingly the last Chozo, but she's the furthest thing from a pure-blood. The Manga doesn't contradict the lore at all, acknowledging the Chozo wasn't a 700-year endangered species, but that they were at least proud and confident enough to co-exist in a society. And then, shit hits the fan and it's left to Dream to elaborate. Dread didn't need to explain that Raven fucking killed them all, but it did-- if the Chozo was already a dying species, we wouldn't need to write them off as 'slaughtered,'
You could simply write them off as 'desperate' or tell their desperate plight, an attempt to survive. And the reason for this decision was because of story direction-- what better story than one that directly ties into the manga?
Even the Manga plays its own game off by getting to the point! Samus investigated-- She found Ridley and had a dodgy, uncomfortable feeling, then shot them-- The manga CONTEXTUALIZES the 'core plot' of the series, by depicting Ridley as her nemesis, clearly something she needs to overcome, but also showing how he ESCAPES in their first real fight. Samus overcame Ridley, but she didn't rid herself of him-- Whether you acknowledge the primes games or not is beside the point-- Prime 3 kills Ridley off, so she can absorb his phazon-jizz and save everybody from radioactive blue magma.
The manga's emphatic point about the value of the metroids is still acknowledged in fusion, outside of the art, by literally introducing the X parasites. Metroids WERE the manga's point, the Chozo were engineering a biological weapon that could handle them, but this happened some time after the slaughter began and the culling of the species was successfully done. Originally, the Chozo wanted to blow the damn planet of SR-388 up, because they couldn't fight the parasites off. When their numbers began to dwindle, and Raven began to survey and become the planet's hero. As a last-ditch effort to delay everybody's higher risk, metroids were integrated into the ecosystem, in order to combat the problem, because Samus was not the chosen one.
Samus was a trump card for the entire plot, only becoming important as everything else becomes unviable.
The manga doesn't play her off as a chosen one, either. The Chozo didn't exalt her, the federation relegateed her to patrol duty and not necessarily to capture killers and pirates, but probably to stop high-risk shoplifters and space-theft auto, at the most.
While the games 'are' canon,' the reason future games tied back into the manga had a lot to do with context:
Samus Returns is the most direct connection to dread, which loops back into the manga, which contextualizes what was stated by Raven, pertaining to background events, happening in the manga. Advertising the manga becomes less important, but it still happened. Using a game booklet is not a compelling argument, either. Some of it is flavor text and not necessarily pertaining to the final-draft of the plot. The booklet is often one of the first five drafts, but the game, itself, is canon because it's a final draft.
So, no. Using handbooks, while it could very well be true and canon, isn't a credible source in either direction. Flavor text without CONTEXT is not valuable. A story without continuity is not necessarily canon.
The manga has continuity, the games continue from the manga, but the manga isn't a main-canon, it's only context, or flavor-text with actual, supported weight and value. Know the difference, would you; I didn't say the games are less canon because of the manga, I didn't say the manga was more canon because of the games. I say the manga's canon is supported by the games' canon. One hand washes the other, in that way. As for a handbook, maybe that's exactly how it went, from a certain point of view, probably from unspoken plot armor, unemphasized off-page requests, or someone realizing that they cannot breath the atmosphere of Zebes, because they lack the "Samus-Got-Injected-By-Alien-Formula" arc required to do so. Context is a virtue, but conjecture is still theoretical. Maybe the booklet is just as 'wrong' in the face value AND the deeper, given context of what it's conveying. Maybe it's just objectively wrong even from the second opinion; "Nobody can breath the air, the gravity is too heavy," by the information being simply... not correct. See? Flavor text only works if there's a reason WHY it works. It works because something needed to be written as a first draft, even if it's not what the final draft of a story became.
And when something is licensed by Nintendo, the owner of an IP, to permit using said IP by a third party, the IP doesn't stop being Nintendo's. Metroid doesn't stop belonging to the company that gave paid permission. Nintendo wasn't even paid for the license-- they literally had someone PAID to work on the material, so another writer didn't lose thirty bucks to draw the art-- they were GIVEN thirty dollars to see what they could do in order to earn that money. Nintendo's advertising that marketable material can't mean it's not canon material, it would deeply, deeply imply that the person who drew up the panels was getting their work canonized, because it, out of any number of others, was the one Nintendo felt was worth advertising.
And this is NOT true for other manga. Samus and Joey wasn't advertised alongside a game-product, referenced by the first manga, or any of the games, alluded to or easter-egg'd by canon material, ties into canon material or has a real place in canon. For instance, Fusion and Dread still reference the 'Zero Mission' manga, often narratively just as well as artfully, whereas, if you swore to me that Joey was a real character, I'd want you to point of the character in any of the games, their name in any lore, their PLANET in any provable canon, their ART in any proven canon, or their place in the timeline, explained in any canon medium. One manga is outright NOT canon, but,. even if neither were canon, the ZM manga is more so than Joey's. Hell-- We know Joey's manga isn't canon and loves to elaborate in showing... that it doesn't take itself seriously or realistically enough to WANT to be canon.
@@AnjnShan "You seem clueless about a lot, especially context." wow, thanks. great ad hominem.
"> Nintendo, the company, not only commissioned people to write their own take on Metroid, but the one who impressed Nintendo was allowed to publish it literally alongside the release of the game. Nintendo didn't only commission the work, they advertised the manga, themselves." Yes, and? Not everything Nintendo advertises is automatically canon. Nintendo Power stuff certainly isn't, Metroid Prime Pinball isn't, the Zelda mangas aren't, etc etc. Just bc Nintendo commissioned it doesn't mean they're beholden to it or that they have to accept it as canon.
Most of Zero Mission's art gallery originated in Metroid Fusion's Child Mode, which predates all but the first one or two chapters of the manga. And the manga's depiction of the events in that gallery actually *contradicts* the games, as you would know if you watched the video we are under. Samus was discovered in a different place and Samus's father died in a different place. If the manga was canon, you'd think they'd take care to follow it... and before you mention Old Bird, he's from the Nintendo Power comic first so that's not evidence.
"And the manga already covers this idea," the manga and the games having similar concepts doesn't mean it's canon. Again, the Nintendo Power comic mentions this stuff. Is the Nintendo Power comic canon?
" Dread didn't need to explain that Raven fucking killed them all, but it did-- if the Chozo was already a dying species, we wouldn't need to write them off as 'slaughtered,'" Raven Beak didn't kill all the Chozo. He killed all but one of the *Thoha*. None of the Chozo that raised Samus were Thoha, except potentially Quiet Robe, the one spared Thoha.
" Prime 3 kills Ridley off, so she can absorb his phazon-jizz and save everybody from radioactive blue magma." Ridley doesn't die in Prime 3. Phazon beings can explode themselves briefly. It's an attack in multiple Dark Samus battles.
"The manga's emphatic point about the value of the metroids is still acknowledged in fusion, outside of the art, by literally introducing the X parasites." Again, most of the manga released after Fusion. It's reiterating points from Fusion, not the other way around. And the Metroids being used for good debuted in Super Metroid anyway.
" the Chozo were engineering a biological weapon that could handle them, but this happened some time after the slaughter began and the culling of the species was successfully done." Did you... play Samus Returns? The Thoha made the Metroids to combat the X. Only after that did Raven Beak kill them all. This is explicit in the order of the Samus Returns memories, which all lead up to the slaughtering of the Thoha by Raven Beak. Raven Beak is *not* a hero. This entire paragraph is not supported by any evidence from the games whatsoever, actually.
The manga may provide context, but it's non-canon context because it contradicts the games. The manga's context actually *contradicts* the games. According to the manga, all Metroid development happened on Zebes, when Samus Returns directly shows it happening on SR388.
And, again, Nintendo *can* advertise non-canon media. They advertised Metroid Prime Pinball, and for other series, Zelda mangas, the Mario manga, Mario + Rabbids, and the like. Whether a media is advertised has no bearing on its canonicity.
Most of your points in favor of the manga's canonicity are addressed in the video that we are under.
Your points that aren't addressed in the video all also apply to the Nintendo Power comic. Is that canon?
Bruh. Dude, Japanese version of Other M is true canon to the manga. English localization was incorrect. Your video is a mistake. You can delete it. And yes, manga is canon, because Zero Mission and this manga too tight bonded. This manga was even in promotional materials for Other M on Nintendo site. Even Dread is true successor and conclusion to narrative that was in the manga with Chozo.
dude, did you... watch the video? everything you brought up is addressed there. Seriously, everything- except the now inaccessible Other M promotional materials. If you have a way to verify those, I'd be very interested, given that they seem to be lost media.
Imagine not watching the video at all and then going down to the comments to spout garbage that’s already addressed in the video 💀
@@seandwalsh3 em, this wasn't adressed at all. He simply twisted the facts to his advantage. During the video, I pierced my forehead from his stupidity or an unsuccessful attempt at trolling. But you took everything at face value and took his word for it, the nonsense that he was talking about here.
@@dis_inferno9173 the only one talking nonsense here is you man. Watch the video before you try to write a response. You are an absolute riot 😂
@@dis_inferno9173 It’s the same interview, the reason why translations from news sources can’t be trusted, is because they have to be tackled very quickly. Errors do happen very often. Some good examples come from Treehouse Aunoma interviews, Masahiro Sakurai Smash directs or even Polygon’s i terview with Masuda over Pokemon Sword and Shield’s Pokedex and animation developments. This isn’t quite like Zelda interviews where Shigeru Miyamoto and Eiji Aunouma have conflicting comments on things and we have to specify the facts.
Much like Aunouma’s comments on the Zelda manga, to avoid discrediting the artist’s reputation with the Metroid Z-manga, Sakamoto wants people to enjoy the manga as another way to enjoy Metroid. Much like a theoretical adaptation of Metroid to film or a series, the manga just isn’t congruent with the games. It’s a fantastic story and it’s themes are well planned out, however every major story moment every theme and plot thread is the complete opposite from the games.
I want to know what the obsession is with Metroid fans forcing an adaption of a piece of media into the games lore- where it in no sense of the word, fits consistently. I’m going to give translators the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to be as accurate and non-biased as possible. Which is clearly the case here with this video as well.