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Приєднався 29 жов 2014
From "Creative" to "Bland": Examining the Mario Mandates
A look at the theory of the so-called Mario Mandates. Thanks to Seán D. Walsh and DaNintendude for helping with the making of this video.
Overview of which areas reference which games:
docs.google.com/document/d/1i0Xu7Z8ozJ2--D_7DhE_NKuyXMlm2R3JuqHGgnVRxx8/edit?usp=sharing
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:44 Section 1: Area Aesthetics
16:48 Intermission: Top 5 Notable Areas
19:41 Section 2: Character Selection
29:08 Conclusion: What of the mandates?
Sources:
shmuplations.com/mariosunshine/
iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/3ds/papermario/0/2/
iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/wii/supermariogalaxy2/0/1/
web.archive.org/web/20150806234320/www.nintendo.co.jp/csr/en/pdf/nintendo_csr2015e.pdf
www.gamecubicle.com/interview-super_mario_sunshine.htm
web.archive.org/web/20130708151851/iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/mario-and-luigi-dream-team/0/2
www.vg247.com/usgamer-interviews-the-developers-of-mario-luigi-dream-team
www.nintendoworldreport.com/feature/61881/interview-with-davide-soliani-creative-director-of-mario--rabbids
nintendoeverything.com/mario-tennis-aces-devs-on-the-games-mechanics-story-mode-how-new-characters-were-decided-name-more/4/
nintendoeverything.com/mario-golf-super-rush-interview-battle-golf-adventure-mode/
metro.co.uk/2022/10/13/mario-rabbids-sparks-of-hope-interview-guns-in-the-hand-of-mario-17557565/
www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2016/12/28/afterwords-paper-mario-color-splash.aspx
nintendoeverything.com/mario-golf-super-rush-interview-battle-golf-adventure-mode/
www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2019-10-02/mario-and-luigi-rpg-developer-alphadream-files-for-bankruptcy/.151784
Overview of which areas reference which games:
docs.google.com/document/d/1i0Xu7Z8ozJ2--D_7DhE_NKuyXMlm2R3JuqHGgnVRxx8/edit?usp=sharing
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:44 Section 1: Area Aesthetics
16:48 Intermission: Top 5 Notable Areas
19:41 Section 2: Character Selection
29:08 Conclusion: What of the mandates?
Sources:
shmuplations.com/mariosunshine/
iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/3ds/papermario/0/2/
iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/wii/supermariogalaxy2/0/1/
web.archive.org/web/20150806234320/www.nintendo.co.jp/csr/en/pdf/nintendo_csr2015e.pdf
www.gamecubicle.com/interview-super_mario_sunshine.htm
web.archive.org/web/20130708151851/iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/mario-and-luigi-dream-team/0/2
www.vg247.com/usgamer-interviews-the-developers-of-mario-luigi-dream-team
www.nintendoworldreport.com/feature/61881/interview-with-davide-soliani-creative-director-of-mario--rabbids
nintendoeverything.com/mario-tennis-aces-devs-on-the-games-mechanics-story-mode-how-new-characters-were-decided-name-more/4/
nintendoeverything.com/mario-golf-super-rush-interview-battle-golf-adventure-mode/
metro.co.uk/2022/10/13/mario-rabbids-sparks-of-hope-interview-guns-in-the-hand-of-mario-17557565/
www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2016/12/28/afterwords-paper-mario-color-splash.aspx
nintendoeverything.com/mario-golf-super-rush-interview-battle-golf-adventure-mode/
www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2019-10-02/mario-and-luigi-rpg-developer-alphadream-files-for-bankruptcy/.151784
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In my opinion, the notion of the mandates is mostly the result of people committing plausibility and ad hoc fallacies. It also doesn’t help when gaming analysts and media outlets collectively hyperfixate on a small set of interviews that tell far from the whole story, and fill in the gaps with dubious “analysis” (e.g. assuming an interview about Sticker Star says something about the entire Mario franchise, conflating “storytelling” with “meeting a certain quota of original characters”, just most of the things Video Game Story Time has done on this subject, really). Most of the design trends and decisions that people attribute to the mandates can be more simply explained through production or even creative concerns (One thing I haven’t seen brought up in this discussion is that making graphical assets for games is a lot more expensive and time-consuming than it used to be, and committing to a consistent art style and set of character designs can help compensate for this by allowing the same models to be reused more, maybe with some occasional tweaks and minor updates), and these explanations are often much more consistent with what we actually see from the games in question. And if you do have a version of the mandate theory that’s robust enough to account for all the games and features therein that seem uninhibited by any such rules, it probably doesn’t fare very well against Occam’s Razor. I also take issue with using a game’s “blandness” alone as evidence of what happened during its development. “Bland” is both a very subjective and just plain vague description. I won’t deny that some Mario games are unequivocally blander than others, but everyone has their own views on what exactly makes a game’s story, art style, character design, etc. bland, and how much each of those factors contributes to their overall perception of the game. That variance in opinion is good, but I feel it disqualifies “blandness” as empirical evidence of anything, especially if you deprive the descriptor of even more nuance by sticking each game in a binary category of “bland” or “not bland”. There’s really quite a bit of room to be selective in what games you call bland in order to support whatever narrative you like. Finally, I would to say that I’m happy I heard the “all developers working on the Mario franchise have to contend with the same Character Design Group, and Paper Mario was so disproportionately affected just because Aoyama has been less willing to test the boundaries than other directors” explanation. It seems to align with observation of the franchise the best, while relying on relatively little conjecture and speculation. It’ll definitely be interesting to see what effect the TTYD remake has on the situation, there. Overall, excellent video that I think anyone interested in the development of the last decade of Mario games ought to watch.
I disagree that older Mario Party and Mario RPGs went "overboard", because they aren't supposed to be" what you think. The lanky shokeeper in Mario Party was not supposed to be a yellow toad, he was just another diverse member of the broad mushroom people race. At the time Toad the character was just one person of an expansive race, where other mushroom people were tall, fat, skinny, or short.
One thing I always found odd/inconsistant with this whole thing was the now infamous tanabe quote from 2020-“ Since Paper Mario: Sticker Star, it’s no longer possible to modify Mario characters or to create original characters that touch on the Mario universe” What does he mean by touch on the mario universe? Is it that you cant make new species that are drawn in the mario style or is it that you cant make new ones based on mario species? Paper mario cant do either as seen with all new characters in modern paper marios arent drawn in the mario style like olly,olivia,the vellumentals and handacomdas and talking trees where as they had an orange snake enemy removed from sticker star drawn in the mario style yet mario and luigi,yoshi games,luigis mansion,tennis as well as golf on switch all made mario style characters even if some were rejected(we also known some were rejected from gba super saga and inside story ds from prorotype and unused ones people found so its nothing newxthere same with wapeach in 2 tennis games before 2010/2011 when pm got effected). Peach showtime also has a few mario style characters like the theets,stella and the basic sour bunch grunts/minions. There was also a now deleted interview(site its from is gone but I do have an archive of it) saying that alphadream had freedom to make new charscters for dream team and also in another one that they chose not to have them in paper jam themselves and even added some new omes in the inside story remake with the BFFs.
Tanabe explains what he means in the next sentence "That means that if we aren’t using Mario characters for bosses, we need to create original characters with designs that don’t involve the Mario universe at all, like we’ve done with Olly and the stationery bosses." That means the only original characters allowed in Paper Mario during that period were physical real world objects like stickers (Kersti) or origami (Olivia) or stationary (Tape).
I knew of that second part of the quote I just wasnt entirely sure what he meant by part of thr mario universe or not as the vullementals have lore/background stuff and are clearly part of the world of origami king having temples built for them and were once flat creatures like the mario characters were not stuff from another world like the legion of stationaty,the stuff scissors made or olly/olivia themselves. It seems they cant made flat 2d paper characters drawn in the mario style or new character and/or subspecies based on mario ones or modify base designs of a mario species.
Hopefully by the next game they can make new mario style stuff thats a totally new species again as everything else never lost the ability to do that though I dont see them ever being able to make stuff based on nintendo made mario species again as even m&l cant do that anymore it seems as dream team didnt have any.
@@jzb4312 Dream Team did have Kylie Koopa so that modification seems to still be allowed!
Miyamoto still traumatized by the first Mario Movie.
How it applies to Zelda be like: ua-cam.com/video/4unKwPQMoOA/v-deo.html Ok, maybe not, but on "Critisising Nintendo's lack of attention to the storytelling of their games who aren't Metroid, because gameplay matters most" it's quite up there. Not that video games need to have stories as good (If better) than your usual movies or books, but people still have the right to ask for better storytelling in the medium. 9:50 It's the first time I see Zerosuit Samus in the context of Metroid Prime Hunters, feels kinda cursed due to the hairstyle. Nice video!
I think the mandates are just a badly put together conspiracy theory, except for the one about using characters that look like other Mario characters, since the developers have mentioned the Character Design Group several times. I think this restriction shouldn't be imposed, since characters that look like others and have appeared in previous Mario media are Nintendo's intellectual property and their appearance in Mario media was authorized by Nintendo, so they are, undeniably, Mario characters, regardless of who made them. Also, I think this restriction forced some games to feature characters that don't really fit with the series' artstyle, as well as characters that will probably only be featured in one game, which shouldn't have happened.
Mandates in Paper Mario are factual however. Tanabe stated "all character designs have to pass a check by our IP team, which is pretty strict." and "From the production of Paper Mario: Sticker Star onwards, we were no longer able to graphically represent individual characteristics, such as age, gender etc., in the Toad NPCs". Having to pass a check by a strict team is objectively a restriction.
@@RARANMA I know, I was thinking about Paper Mario when I was writing the comment. I meant that the other restrictions probably didn't exist.
@@xabi7772 Fair enough
Did not expect a Fortune Street/Itadaki Street mention here. You sir, are a man of culture.
I don't really understand why people think the Mario Party 1 & Advance Toads "went overboard" They have all the traits of a Toad, they just aren't constrained to the exact same body shape and they're able to evoke energy you couldn't with constrained Toads (The Mushroom Shop Clerk being tall and lanky gives off a particular vibe that I don't think a Toad with the traditional proportions could achieve) The only Toads I could kind of see being deemed "too different" are the ones from the old cartoons. Since they had like, ears and noses. I understand wanting the Toad species to be consistent in which facial features they have (though I do enjoy the Starshade Bros. from Superstar Saga and I suspect that they skirted Toad rules by not ever officially being labeled as Toads)
You know what? I agree with the first time in my life Just don't diss Goerge Washingtoad
I don't think they went overboard, but when looking at the first Mario Party game, those Toads have aged like milk. They are ugly. The Toads in Advance are cool, but the ones in the first game aren't. I do get it is the first game in the series, and it was Hudson Soft's first foray into creating the series, but the Toads just have unappealing designs. And it's a game that really shows its age, not just in terms of the character models either.
@@ranpan6082 I don't think it's the designs themselves, just the fact that they're N64 models & we've never seen how they'd look in promo art, unlike the Advance Toads.
@@fawfulthegreat64 Was there no promo art of them in the instruction manual?
MARIO EH EH EH
i had no idea he had so much backstory
this was a good video
I don't really believe in the Mandates anymore, but It really felt like they were sticking with one Aesthetic. While the games have gotten a lot more creative nowadays, I do kind of wish they use more characters that aren't just part of Bowser army.
Yeah, there was an odd trend for a while where Mario’s cast of friends continuously shrank (the removal of Toadsworth, the downplaying of Yoshi, the absence of the friendly NPCs from previous entries), while Bowser’s cast kept growing (the return of Kamek, the Koopalings, Boom Boom (with the new addition of Pom Pom, and even the Reznors for a bit). It’s weird that they kept pursuing this vision of Mario’s world where it’s only a paltry few against Bowser’s endless army instead of allies and enemies being split evenly.
I'm pretty sure there is some kind of mandate across not just Mario, but all Nintendo brands against allowing major character romances from ever being more than just implied. Otherwise Mario x Peach and Link x Zelda would have been a thing by now.
Peach kisses Mario tho
I imagine certain series will function differently due to different fundamentals. For example, there would likely be no mandate on romances in series like Fire Emblem or Xenoblade, because it’s more of a fundamental. I imagine mandates only affect certain Nintendo series, like Mario and Zelda.
@@britishguy54dx I do think the rules are different for games like fire emblem because the romances in those games are player driven. And player driven romances scratch a very different itch then romances that you passively experience. Either way, I do kind of wish Nintendo would be more willing to lean into these implied romances like Mario x peach more. I think they are very wholesome and on brand with the franchise.
@@BulbminFan that would be because it's a sign of gratitude, or friendship. One example of hinted romance.
You have an accent? Watching this with the captions on and the captions don't seem to understand what you're saying.
He talks with a Dutch accent. I would know since I'm also from the Netherlands.
I'm going to have to play the Devil's lawyer here. I think this era of more standard Mario was necessary for Nintendo to understand its audience. Let's be honest GC has several Mario games with very strange characters from the Mario universe, especially Mario Sunshine and we already know that the console wasn't that successful. I think Nintendo saw a need to bring the classic elements of Mario so that older audiences could reconceptualize themselves with the franchise. Did she exaggerate this? Yes, however, in recent years it has been trying to mix standard Mario things with new ideas, but doing its best to ensure that the public does not become disconnected from what they already know about the franchise.
I think the biggest issue with the fans' perception of the mandates is that they attribute anything and everything they don't like to the mandates. They assume that the developers aren't allowed to have fun anymore, or that they're not allowed to do certain things that they used to. There are absolutely harsher restrictions nowadays, but people like to think that every little thing stems from them. People were so certain that Toadsworth was forbidden, that they thought he wouldn't be in the TTYD remake, which is absurd. There is a natural development of Mario's world and its characters, and sometimes past characters and ideas just don't have a role to fill, or are more effort than they're worth. Development costs and time also play a large factor into what a game becomes. It's possible that the mainline team has wanted to bring back Toadsworth, but just haven't created a scenario where his role would be required. He's not a priority nowadays, so if he's not easy to include, they're not gonna include him. The idea that Toadsworth may never return is silly. Nintendo has had numerous occasions where they brought back characters who had been dormant. Odyssey's Metro Kingdom created the perfect opportunity to bring Pauline back, and now she's having a major resurgence. Characters like Toadsworth could return at any time.
Something I did not touch on is indeed that games nowadays take far longer to make and are also more expensive to make. Entire Nintendo series disappeared due to this trend for a while as there were no studios to make those series (Donkey Kong Country comes to mind with Retro being busy with Metroid Prime the last 5 years), so there are also just fewer Mario games coming out than in the 2000s, which in turn also gives less opportunities for certain characters to appear.
Hi hello @DaNintendude again fellow lurker, lol. Anyways I agree. I'm surprised people thought they would scrap Toadsworth, but that's the discourse. While I was happy to see the remake of PMTTYD, I wasn't surprised by like others were that it was rereleased and I was surprised by their surprise. But then I would see people repeat that tired old myth that Miyamoto hates story, and all those quote mines going around again. In addition to mentions of the alleged mandates. But back on topic... Yeah it makes sense he doesn't always fit a role or even just isn't needed., and I've even seem some hypotheses that he's in the BeanBean Kingdom with Lady Lima. I also don't get this view that if a character doesn't show up in games,(specifically the 2D and 3D platformers) that they are somehow forgotten, hated, or forbidden. People pointed to the movie but then forget, Toadsworth was considered for the movie. He was in the concept art. I think myself think him not showing up in the movie could further show the difference between the continuities but that's neither here nor there. Continuing on to me it's like, characters don't always have to show up. Scary thought for people but it's like, the characters can just be off doing their own thing. People are always like Nintendo hates Waluigi, he should have his own game, etc. etc. People create excuses saying oh Nintendo doesn't have him in main games because they don't like characters who they didn't create.(They used Daisy in this arguement and it was changed because Run and Wonder.) Other says they don't own Waluigi and they don't wanna pay to use him that's why he's not in "main games." Meanwhile they use him in kart and sports games. When if you think about it narratively, Waluigi doesn't have a reason to show up. It's established he only intends to best people like Luigi in sports, party, and karting events. A fact reestablished in games like SuperStar Baseball. He hasn't really shown a care to adventuring or hero work. He's not Wario's brother or even friend, and they are just sports partners. So for all intents in purposes Waluigi doesn't have a reason to show up in 2D platformers. Then you think about other characters like Daisy, she's the ruler of Sarassaland and while she does partake in sports and karting events she doesn't really go on adventures. So it doesn't make sense for her to cross that ocean just to show up in a random say Mario and Luigi game or for 2D Platformer. It is also why it makes sense for her to show up in Wonder because if Peach was invited by Prince Florian it can only be assumed Daisy was also invited thus giving her a reason to show up. You also have the SML enemies which people forget are the citizens of Sarassaland brainwashed, and it doesn't make sense for them to show up as future bad guys. I even remember seeing a video where someone claimed Dorrie was replaced by Plessie and they mentioned Dorrie showing up in future games. Then they were like, _"but will Plessie replace Dorrie only time will tell."_ And it's like.... it's not a one or the other thing Dorrie and Plessie don't have to show up in every game. On your last thing about characters coming back, fr though. Or at least they are acknowledged. SuperStar Basebal did acknowledge King Wart's existence. Stanley's Greenhouse shows up in Tropical Freeze. Then you have the Koopalings, people thought they had been replaced by Bowser Junior somehow but then they forget that Iggy cameoed in SMS.
This! I remember before the remake of Thousand-Year Door was unveiled and there were rampant rumors about it being remaster, and people were on Twitter saying if it happens, Nintendo will sterilize the game to oblivion. Someone was posting a tweet that showed the partners being replaced with plain generic Mario enemies, and people actually believed it would happen. The Paper Mario community had this delusional belief that Nintendo absolutely despised classic Paper Mario and hated ever creating it in the first place. I saw when Battle League had Shy Guy do a Paper Mario reference, people were saying that Nintendo was going to remove it. You are right in saying that people think every little thing they don't like stems from mandates. I remember people saying the remake of Mario vs. Donkey Kong was soulless because it was missing some voice clips and animations present in the original game. I agree with how much longer game development has become. Back in the Nintendo 64 and GameCube era, we got Mario Party games every year, all of them vastly different from one another. Now? It's a three year wait in between new entries. And when it comes to the more bland Mario games in the Switch era, like the Mario Sports games, these games are likely bland because these games are made on a tight budget. And that's probably why they also lack in content and rely so heavily on free updates. A game like Super Mario Party with its bland and small boards seems less to be because of mandates and more so the fact NDCube was working on multiple Mario Party games at once. Mario Party 10 in 2015, Star Rush in 2016, and The Top 100 in 2017, which reuses assets from Star Rush. All of that going on while they're working on Super. We can see they're still passionate about the series given how fun and creative Jamboree is shaping up to be.
@@Eris1987 Miyamoto does not like story in Mario when Galaxy 2 was made. He stated "I'd like to go with as little story as possible, I've always felt that the Mario games themselves aren't particularly suited to having a very heavy story". He even put a stop to Koizumi adding more story and said "Well, I put a stop to that at the beginning, this time" You can call it quote mines but that doesn't change that these facts are facts.
@@RARANMA Meanwhile he never said he disliked story and he claimed he didn't think Mario games needed story while Zelda games do. By extension he never said Mario games couldn't have story. He also didn't stop Koizumi from doing anything, in addition Koizumi agreed with Miyamoto on Galaxy 2 not needing a story like Galaxy 1. Note, I hope people can stop the Galaxy 2 hate already. We can't forget Koizumi in his owns words has stated he presented the Rosalina's storybook to Miyamoto, which Miyamoto saw and read. And of course due to it's existence in SMG, approved of it Miyamoto has also changed his view on the story thing for awhile now and found what he wants to basically resonance in games. Also since I don't feel like coming back here a million times to respond to any future comments. If you want an more in depth look into what it is I'm talking about I recommend you look up a video titled No Miyamoto DOESN'T Dislike/hate(I don't remember) story. Frankly if I would rather waste my time with the actual lore of Mario rather than dealing with people thinking Miyamoto hates story and ruined Galaxy 2.
They never existed and I WILL stand on that
Same here, seeing everything in context I think it's all down to choice.
It's not mandates, It's sanitization.
When developers have openly talked about it like the paper Mario team then yh it exists.
@@donaldthescotishtwin I've seen those before, they are often vague and nothing I recall saying "mandates." There is also the remarks by the new Intelligent Systems Team saying they had full creative freedom when making games.
@@Eris1987Well you clearly didn't read through that whole interview, Tanabe did said the Paper Mario team now has full control over the development in one of those Origami King interviews, except the latter half of that sentence also straight up stating that all the character designs they made has to go through the IP team from Nintendo first and the guidelines they follow apparently are quite strict
I don't think there really is any actual mandates and was a choice in creative freedom. In addition to it being based on quote mines and vague quotes. With a vague mention of an IP team with apparent restrictions which are too vague to even make out what are and aren't the limitations. I also think Intelligent Systems just got lazy. But overall good video.
Tanabe stating "all character designs have to pass a check by our IP team, which is pretty strict." and "From the production of Paper Mario: Sticker Star onwards, we were no longer able to graphically represent individual characteristics, such as age, gender etc., in the Toad NPCs" are pretty specific facts. A team restricting Paper Mario is the opposite of choice in creative freedom.
What about Claude, Dimitri and Yuri? They’re lords just like Edelgard is in Three Houses. Although it is nice to recognize Azura as a Lord although a lot of people claim that Corrin is the Lord of Fates.
So the lyrics are a jingle…an epic jingle
the memories that go through out my mind watching this video. cheers.
The kid-friendly softhearted chronology of the starfox series: starfox 1, starfox 2, starfox 64, starfox : beloved Falco, starfox adventures, starfox assault, starfox command, and starfox heroes of the lylat
The song every Smash Bros. fan hears in their nightmares.
This is great, my favorite Professor Layton is Last Specter/Spectre's Call, I know I'd really like watching this at my own time.
2:11
"most importantly, never let your units die" no one knows me on such a personal level
peak fiction
This amazing and interesting
The song I like
Best Nintendo series by far
Is Command truly canon if it has so many alternate endings?
Ngl Assault sounds like the best of these imo (also Ending 8 of Command)
Fire Emblem, Epic Waifu Simulation
ゲーム音楽で一番の名曲主題歌だと思います😸
🚬🗿
Lore of Lorekeeping: The Life and Times of Professor Elvin Gadd (ft. Seándwalsh) momentum 100
Lore of Lorekeeping: The Life and Times of Professor Elvin Gadd (ft. Seándwalsh) momentum 100
Incredible stuff! Notable: in the Mario Kart arcade games there is an unlockable character called Robo-Mario who's hat has the E. Gadd emblem where Mario's signature "M" would be, so that's another invention Elvin would have gotten up to at some point in the timeline.
Yeah, Robo-mario is briefly discussed starting at 22:10. There is not much to him, so his section in the video is pretty brief.
Awesome! You should make more Mario related videos
Dude if u keep making videos like this ur channel will eventually blow up! Loved this so much
@@JacobNintendoNerd99 of course !!!
This video deserves more views
e. gadd
I do have a theory that king boo is bowser
E Gadd is one of my favorite characters in the Mario series, and his connection to all sorts of different games and ideas is part of that fact. Really cool to have this compiled all together in one video. Never knew about the King Boo statue in the Tower of Yikk
A really brillant video on a very neglected part of 3H. Thank you so much!
In this world there could be Troublesome times ahead. We just have to ask ourselves, what would Hector do?....
This series is a masterpiece and beautiful alot better than shining force and final fantasy tactics!
I'm your 200th sub!