Violin Intonation--a Simple Approach
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- Опубліковано 26 кві 2010
- Learn a simple way to use sympathetic vibration to drastically and easily improve intonation on violin and stringed instruments. Helpful for beginners and advanced players.
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Best violin teacher on UA-cam!
Thank you! My instructor, [I'm self taught] never knew about this. Very insightful and I could really hear the notes ringing in my inner ear when I hit them properly. So glad I found this video...
I've always wondered why notes in 3rd position resonate when I get lucky and hit the right pitch. it now makes sense, thank you.
Yep, and those ringy notes are your GUIDE to good intonation!
Thank you so much. I can believe how much my intonation improved after I saw this video.
truely awesome advice!!!.......you're a master! thanks
Incredibly helpful. Thank you.
What a great lesson video...thank you so much!
Hey John
Excellent question. That is one issue with using ONLY this approach, which is why this approach is a STARTING POINT for good intonation. I do not use any tempered tuning unless I am playing with a piano, at which point, I tune my G string just a little sharp. I've mainly played in Orchestras and string ensembles, where tempered tuning is not used. So, I tune to A440, and perfect 5ths all around.
Wow Lora! You are a fantastic teacher.
Thank you, Caitlyn!
Keep up your good work!
This is absolutely the best tutorial on intonation I have found! Something that finally makes sense! Thank you.
Glad you "got it" Leslie. Once you really hear the ringy notes, there is no going back!
I agree!!! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
great. very helpfull. thank you very much ....
This is so helpful. Yes it was missed out by our teacher!!!
@amoradif YES! I'm glad you found it as helpful as I did!
@djavaresk Absolutely! Same principal applies for all string instruments.
For Viola, your ringy 3’s will be C, G, D, A.
I found this one extremely helpful. Thanks.
My pleasure! Glad it helped. Good luck!
Wonderful! Don't you just love instant gratification?!
Great Video ! All your videos are really well put together , keep 'em coming.
I was wondering , what type of tuning temperment do you use and how does this affect the ringing ?
Thanks
John
Yes Lora, very helpful! Some of the others are using midi pianos, metronome tuners, drones, and other gadgets to play against. Your way is much simpler, and involving muscle memory. My friend spends hours playing notes to her metronome tuner to get it perfect, so when playing without it, she doesn’t know if she’s in tune without it. Drives me nuts!
Oh yeah, all those gadgets can just backfire. First of all, unless your bow stroke is PERFECT, you can't make the needle stand still, so you can't tell if it's your intonation or your bow technique! Ringy notes are MUCH easier.
@dududevynidu In that case, we agree 100%. I have not seen Korguev's Exercises in Double Stops...they sound FABULOUS!
Hello Lora, I use a violin tuner to get my intonation good, Since Im a beginner I use that to check if im playing the correct note and if that note is in tune. Do you think this is good or should I be doing something else?
LOL....that's why it's important to supplement your learning with other resources. Good for you for doing some independent research! I wish I had done that when I was taking lessons....I had the belief that my violin teachers would teach me everything I needed to know......WRONG!
Wow.. Tq for this..
Welcome 😊 Glad you understood it!
Excellent video, thank you!
Quick question... B is ringing because it is the 5th of E. I get that. But why isn't C ringing when G (an open string note) is its 5th? If there was a string next to G, it would be a C, right?
And as I typed this, I think I may have got the answer... playing a 5th (B) will vibrate the root (E), but playing the root (C) won't vibrate the 5th (G)? I guess that kind of explains it, but it's still strange to me how the relationship seems to be one-way.
@dududevynidu Yes, double stops are very revealing! But your bow technique has to be perfect, or it destroys the overtones, and disrupts the vibrations we are listening for! I practiced for hours this way, but never really knew what I was listening for! I wouldn't recommend this approach for a beginner, would you?
Excellent!! All your videos are informative. I'm a beginner, but have played other stringed instruments, I'm 54 yrs old, yes, 54. I've watched a number of your videos, and am going to look at your website. Can I contact you? Looking where to start, but on budget and in Calif.
Hi Dean
Glad you found me! Check out my website at www.reddesertviolin.com, it clearly shows the classes I offer, and you will find my email on that site if you have other questions. My classes are definitely budget friendly! We are ALL on a budget, but music is priceless! Hope to see you there.
Although, I've noticed with this new guitarist I've been playing with lately, I sound HORRIBLY out of tune, and I assumed it was his use of a capo. Maybe I'll ask him if he uses tempered tuning.
I'm just wondering: my main intonation problems usually have to do with shifting. I feel like each time I shift, my intonation quality changes each individual time. Is there an exercise you recommend for being consistent with shifts, so that when I place different fingers after a shift, the intonation quality won't change? for example; is there like a certain thumb position that has to be kept consistent in relation with the other fingers? i know you get lot of comments, so thanks in advance
Hi lora, could you please do a video of tuning while holding your violin up using double stops. I would like to know how to so as to refine my ears. :) When I try, I feel like my violins gonna fall when i reach around with my left hand... I can let go and it stays put... Just when I let go. Any tips if you don't have time would be fine. :) Thanks
E is the Perfect 4th of B.
And in the Overtone Series, perfect 4th is the 3rd series. To mention, it is Octave, Perfect 5th then Perfect 4th. I think that is why the E string rings when B is played right. Am i Right RedDesertViolin?
If B is a ringy note because of the overtone series (because it is a fifth higher than E), would F# also be considered a ringy note because it is a fifth higher than B? In that case, can you tune F# using the "ringy note" method (i.e. stop your bow after you play the note and listen for vibrations)? I have watched several of your videos and really enjoy all of the helpful hints you have given through them. I am a string student at Western Kentucky University and I am trying to improve my playing
I always ask this in every intonation video i find on youtube, Does overtones travel downwards?
Because before i consider my C# a dead note, but now i think it's not because i hear A ring for C#(except for C# on A string, obviously).
If you're gonna ask me what made me think that. It's because I think A is the Major 3rd of C# if we're counting the overtone series downwards/backwards.
I find many similar notes that i consider dead notes before but rings now like
G#, Bb,Eb,F and F#.
I'm just wondering if my basis on practicing intonation is right or am i just making up a whole another theory?
Thanks.
Nicola, I will readily admit that I don't really know DEFINITIVELY the answer to your question.....but I believe what you are saying is possible. (I'll ask a friend of mine who will most likely be able to answer.....he's a violist/physicist)
But I agree with you: "Dead" notes are not truly dead.....there is definitely a "ring" to them when they are right on pitch....it is just extremely subtle and harder to hear than the really openly ringy notes.
If you find out more before I do, post it here for us! Please!
Basically, every note that matches an overtone of an open string is going to keep ringing to a degree. The first overtones more than the later higher ones.
The frequency ratios and the matching intervals of the overtone series are
1 : same note
2 : octave
3 : octave + fifth
4 : 2 octaves
5 : 2 octaves + third
6 : 2 octaves + fifth
7 : 2 octaves + septime
8 : 3 octaves
9 : 3 octaves + whole tone
and so on...
So when you play a C# you excite the fourth overtone (the one with a 5:1 frequency ratio) of the open A string. The higher overtones are harder to excite because they have a shorter natural decay time. That's why every stringed instrument usually has a sharp bright attack which then decays to a more mellow sustained tone that mostly consists of the fundamental tone. The higher overtones die off more quickly with the result that as the tone is sustained they get quieter relative to the lower overtones leaving the fundamental as dominant tone.
+Thies Heidecke This explanation is still SO amazing. Thank you for taking the time to write it out. (a year ago!)
Hi Lora, your videos are amazing, thank you, thank you! When I play my 3rd finger (C) on my G string it sounds absolutely flat (not as opposed to sharp for example, just sounds flat like it has no character and no resonation) no matter how much or how little pressure I put on the string. My violin is a 200+ year old French Mirecourt and is in very good condition. I hope I was able to make my problem clear. Not sure how else to describe it. I took in for a "checkup" by a luthier about 6 months ago. I am an adult beginner, playing for about 6 months now. Any ideas?
Be sure to let us know what you discover! I love to unravel mystery diagnoses.
Did you ever figure it out? Perhaps it's how it sounds to you, and I'd wonder if it sounds like that in other octaves
I understand that middle C (on the G string) is often a "dead" note on even very good violins. It seems that it's an acoustic fluke with violin design in general.
By the way, I don't know why, in the article "three systems of intonation" he is using A= 441 as reference for equal temp tuning. The international standard is 440. NY philh are using 442 Hz and Vienna are using 443 Hz.
Erik Nystrom These articles are just what I need to read. Thanks! Argh....the upward trend in pitch drives me crazy. What about SINGERS? Supposedly it gives the ensemble a more "brilliant" sound......but come on.....is it really worth this pitch inflation? Before long, we will have to put new neck grafts on all violins, and this time, they will need a steel bar in them!
can you please help me solve my problem Lora? the vibration of my violin gores to the end pin and it's what makes me cough during playing. what should i do?
gores=goes
+vanezcha Hi Vanezcha, You can put a pad between your neck and the button. They sell foam pads called "Strad Pad", but I think it is latex, maybe not. But you can also put a nice, thick cloth "diaper" or other home-made pad that would feel really nice, plus it would solve the vibration problem. I know you can find a solution with a tiny bit of experimentation.
Hi Keith....wow. You might try wikipedia, search "Overtone Series", and see if you can find an answer to that. I don't know off hand. Then come back and let us know!!!
what are the ringy notes on a viola?
Great question.
The ringy 3rd fingers would be: D, (3 on A) G, (3 on D) C (3 on G).
And C Major arpeggio will be SUPER ringy, like the G Major arpeggio is super ringy on violin.
(Start 3rd finger on your G string, and play a C Major arpeggio.....you will hear tons of ringy notes)
Maybe this is to complicated but anyhow:
To get best sound and nice ringing out your violin use Pythagorian tuning. If you are using a tuner device or a tuning application, your are probably in Equal temp tuning (piano tuning), which is a compromize! With Pythagorian tuning, each string has a frequency 1.5 times the frequency of the string below, i.e. A= 440 Hz > E= 660 Hz. That means if you want Pythagorian tuning, your G- string should be 0.4 Hz lower and you E-string 0.7 Hz higher than what your tuner tells you. Unfortunately this doesnot work so well if you are playing together with a piano, and it also doesnot work so well in all keys. However it works very well in D-major, and that's probably why so many Violin concertos are written in D-major. In other cases you must find a compromize. If you are using a tuner try to tune the D- and the A- strings according to the tuner, tune the G-string just a tiny, tiny below and the E-string a tiny, tiny above compared to what the tuner tells you. If you play with a piano, especially slow pieces, use the piano tuning, even if your violin will not ring at its best.
Erik Nystrom Hi ErikI agree. Unfortunately, it is a compromise, and it drives me crazy! Thanks for your wonderful input.
Do you know where we can all learn more about the different tuning methods?
Anyway, I know some free tuner apps online let you choose what tuning the tuner will use, including Pythagorian! I thought that was VERY cool.
I often wondered what tuning our electronic gadgets use.....because often I don't agree with the tuner! Ha Ha
So you think most electronic tuners are in equal temperament? Argh.
I guess you have to choose where you will be playing most often, and train yourself for that setting.
+Red Desert Violin Hello "Red ....violin" ;-) If you like to chat about the good intonation, please contact me here: latchezar_d@yahoo.com Thanks
Does undertones series exist? Because you can ring your Open G when you play G on D string.
The open G string, even if lower, has natural overtones one and two octaves up.
Hi, 2 links regarding tuning and the physics of music. As I said, a little complicated but very interesting if you like physics and music
baylakeyes.com/2013/06/three-systems-of-intonation/
www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/Physicsofmusic.html
I don't know if there are tuners with pythagonian tuning, I use an app on my ipad. The app is in equal temp and can be set to any pitch, A = 440 +\- increments of 1 Hz, but it also shows the exact freq that I'm playing, so as an example when I tune my E-string instead of tuning to 559.3 Hz (equal temp) I can tune to 660.
+Erik Nystrom By the way, I checked out the Bayla Keyes article.....it was awesome, and actually very easy to understand. Thanks!
MY ADVICE FOR BETTER PLAYING, SOUND, INTONATION AND BOW CONTROL - Please, may I make 2 suggestions. Practice making a tone on a crystal goblet filled 1/3 to 1/2 full with water and extremely clean finger(s); especially the right hand fingers. If you do not know how, you wet the finger tip and rotate the finger around the top rim of the glass. This will teach you pressure and speed concepts which are critical in using the bow. Secondly, practice playing - extremely slowly - two open strings at the same time until they sound perfect and beautiful together. This you need to learn for several reasons, especially for tuning. Then, do the same thing with an open string below and the 3rd finger octave above; the first level of playing a double stop octave. When you can do all these things with great accuracy and beauty, then you are ready for the next level of double stops within a one octave scale. If playing the violin, start on the D and A strings. For the viola, the G and D strings.
I very much like these suggestions! Thank you!
Ah, Karis! You caught me! "Ringy Note Intonation" is not introduced until Suzuki Book 2. Until Book 2, it is considered acceptible to rely on the finger tapes. I often wonder if "ringy notes" shouldn't be introduced sooner, like around "Allegro". (Unit 12) I'd love feedback on that regard!
@amoradif
Lol ! Did anyone notice that those notes happen to be the G major pentatonic and the
E minor pentatonic scales ?! Oh yeah, Haha ;=)....
Good point ships ahoy! We all know now!
why not just play them both? it'll sound horrible if it's not in tune