Hope you enjoyed the video. I know that the camera angle was a bit wonky at first but we learn from things like that. Were you expecting dust coming out of the fork?
Dude. This channel is gold. These forks take me way back. It's crazy to see how rudimentary the damping was. Please please please track down a Halson Designs inverted fork. I have no idea what was going on inside that thing.
I had two original Inversions and one PDS. Inside the inversion were simple urethane (not multicellular foam) bumpers on a skewer, which Halson invented themselves and licensed to Manitou for awhile before they switched away from skewers completely. There was no preload adjustment, but you could easily pull out the skewers by unthreading them by hand from the crown and put in new bumpers. There were four colors of bumpers- white, yellow, blue and red, in increasing order of softness. They rode well, which was mainly down to the long spring stack. Small bump absorption was fantastic for the time and the long spring stack meant they didn't pogo, and sucked up big hits reasonably well. Because each spring was 1" long and the whole stack was 7" long, you had tons of tuning options and could easily adapt the fork for different outside temps by unscrewing the spring stack by hand, an important feature with elastomer forks being so sensitive to temperature changes. The brace weighed a ton and was flexy as hell under braking, and all the offset was in the crown, so it turned poorly. Also, the dropouts were rather long and therefore kind of flexy. Halson liked to claim that inverted forks had lower unsprung weight than conventional forks, but I am 100% sure that these forks, with their heavy, ugly and flexy solid cast alloy brace, thick-walled straight gauge small lower legs, and long, thick, somewhat flexy cast dropouts had much higher unsprung weight than a MAG21 or Quadra with their hollow magnesium braces and mag legs which didn't use a separate dropout. Overall, they rode much better than a Quadra but worse than say a Manitou Magnum. The black hard ano finish on the legs was extremely tough. One of my two forks had one of the stanchions come loose. That happened after Halson had gone under and I had to have them epoxied into place.
I also had a PDS. That one solved a lot of the issues of the original black Inversions- it had an extra .6" of travel (2.5"), it was lighter with a hollow crown and aluminum steerer, a tubular aluminum brace, the stiffest I have ever used in both torsion and braking; offset that was all in the dropouts for lower rotating weight and easier turning. The spring stack, now 8" instead of 7", was still on their patented skewer system, but this time the springs were multicellular foam urethane, which was lighter and somewhat less sensitive to temperature. The springs were available in two additional hardnesses- pink (ultra soft) and black (ultra hard). The spring stack still had no preload and was threaded into the bottom of the fork by hand. Each spring was now 4" long instead of the 1" of the original fork, so fine tuning the softness, sag and spring progression was harder. [By this time Manitou and Rock Shox had moved away from skewers, using simple plastic discs between springs that caused less sliding friction.] These lighter springs could be retrofitted to the old forks. The damper, which they called a brain, was actually just a metal disc, one inside each fork leg, that limited the ability of air to flow inside of the fork. It was billed as compression damping, IIRC. That metal disc attached to a long rod that was part of the crown- upper leg unit and machined I think from the same block of billet (lots of machining time on these, not a lot of profit I suppose). One of my damper rods broke from me doing something that wasn't all that stressful, ruining the fork permanently. Another problem was that the fork boot, a clear rubber boot that covered the entire upper part of the fork, was a bit stiff and rubbed on the outside of the fork legs under compression, causing more stiction. I was never impressed with the small bump sensitivity of these forks, in contrast to the originals, which were pretty damn good in that regard. Halson liked to claim that inverted forks had lower unsprung weight than the conventional forks, but I believe that these forks had slightly higher unsprung weight than that of, say, a Judy or MAG21. Finally, the PDS, like the black forks, could only take a 2.1" tire- 2.3" Z-Maxes would buzz the crown when bottoming. Overall, very innovative but with too many flaws. I talked to the owner once and he said that for future generations of forks they were planning on moving away from the inverted design because the slots in the upper legs would get so long they'd compromise the integrity of the fork. Instead, they were thinking of moving to oval legs.
What a classic! Love seeing this. Any way to fully restore it? Do you have an inversion fork? That would be fun to see.... or.... wait for it a lawwill leader fork. That would be a treat!
I'm sure I "could" restore it... Maybe in the future. The trick is finding the correct elastomers. I have both a Halson Inversion and a Lawill Leader! They're both on the list for future videos for sure.
I talked to Dan Hanebrink about this fork back in 98. The damper they used is actually a casket lid damper, and some did have coil springs. Mine has a 20mm thru axle and disk brake mount for first gen Hayes. Pretty plush when lubed properly.
Hey Ron- I think you had the DH version; this is the "freeride" version with no damper and elastomers. I have a DH on the way, i'll be sure to pull it apart as well! Stay tuned!
I've just see a Cannondale moto, with this fork in the front of the local jail in Vác, Hungary. I was passing by with car, and I had to stop because this fork was really "catchy" for the first sight. Sad to see, that it was also an elastomer fork. Congrats for the videos! Keep up the good work with your channel!!!
Nice. I had one of those on a Diamondback carbon fiber hardtail back in the 90s. Was into some weird builds at the time. But yeah the fork kind of sucked. It had a ton of "stiction" and a weird bounce to it.
I raced with a ZZYZX for about a year . I put some motorcycle shock boots on it and also serviced it after every ride. The fork is also not as solid as it looks. Eventually got rid of it and got me a monster T.
I just picked up a Santa Cruz Super 8 MK1 survivor with the zzyzx DH fork! Its an original build from 98 and has the 20mm axle w/Hayes! Now I don't dare open that thing up :)
When will we see a teardown of the coil sprung version? This was alluded to in the comments. I'm pondering buying one in rideable condition for $200 (for a custom 90's parts build using a NYC Bikes hardtail frame from 2004ish).
I really need to just clone myself and the three me's can take turns working, making videos and riding bikes 😂 Even in good shape these aren't super durable unless you keep them clean and lubed, but $200 is a good price for one in good shape.
I have an ATC Terrex, they were bought out Zyzxx and supposed to have better machining and quantity. I post some pics of it on my Instagram for you to see
Very rad. I've been riding a pair of bullet bros zyzzyx on my 98 rocky mountain dh Race and I remember contacting ATC around 2009 for their disc brake conversion.
contact Hannibrink directly as you used to be able to ship them the zyzzyx and they would refit it with better seals and internals then make it 6 inches from 4 if you ask too. I bet they have some seals left.
I just looked and can find no marks,numbers letters of any kind to tel me what year this was made,yet it was earlier than yours. Back then that could be 3-6 months.
@@ButterSuspension being correct is cool, actually riding that old fork is another story. Might i be so very lucky that you have a tale of riding that fork perhaps?
@@thinkpadBentnoseTheBlind haven't ridden that one and most of my collection won't be ridden by me. Pretty much all the old elastomer models ride pretty badly compared to modern stuff, especially with how I ride now (old stuff ridden hard will just fall apart). My Voodoo SS bike has a Judy FSX carbon on it now, it's just terrible 🤣
Those tiny allen bolts that hold the fork legs on the clamping area suck like that wasn't gonna strip and if it didn't strip cause of the small thread in soft 6061 al then it was because some meathead tightened them unevenly and forced it to follow the other bolt to the other side except one wasn't threading it reminds me of a song from the Doors break on through. If you want to do another tear down ill trade you for any decent forks you would be willing to part with?
Stil have one of those at my workshop. Worst ever investment i ever did. EVER. Should add another "ever" or two. I rebuilt mine 4 or 5 times. Prob many times more. Or it felt like all i did was rebuild it with new internals. Broke the main shaft that holds the fork together. Mid air on a jump. Machined new ones several times, better version everytime. Then i got a damaged jnr-t. Lowers was cracked. So i modded the internals to fit the zzyzx. And it finally had some oil floating around in there. As it was bone dry new. And i chucked the elastomers and put speedsprings in it. But sadly it being a cheap piece of shit the stanchion anodizing got worn out after a little while. So when i finaly hung it up and got a boxxer etcetc riding was finally doable again. Was a student back then so buying something new at that time was not possible. But i could repair stuf. Until they where not repairable again. I guess the shop kind of wanted to get rid of it and advertized it as a very good fork. Best money could buy. For that amount. A local shop. Yeah i was fooled. This was pre internet forums etc. So checking reviews etc was non existing. It is a good conversation piece though. Originally it rode like a sofa. If it was warm they sunk like sitting on a sofa. In the cold... Yeah, you can probably guess.
Didn’t know those were elastomers! I still have a prototype Hanebrink and it used a White Bros damper with 125cc dirt bike spring in the other leg. At least that’s what Dan told me..... no wonder those forks were so cheap
@@ButterSuspension like you said most forks we made where custom and made to order and yes a lot of one offs but most components where the same except colors and length of fork.
Dang quite a bit of shit talking but I love the video regardless cause you said some good things as well. I built the forks mainly did a lot of machining of the components as I am a CNC programmer ,and helped with much of the design changes throughout the development of the fork also the upside downs of course. Not all the models had elastomer inside we had models that had hydraulic dampers as well I had many pairs and still do they work great if you keep up on them they are quite a bit of work to keep up on but the bushings are not just plain plastic they are made from a special high-grade composite called Delrin. I’m impressed with how knowledgeable you are about the fork and also my dad Dan Hanebrink. Let me know if you’re interested in another set or if you know someone that wants a set of The ZZYZX
Hey Jared! Sorry if it sounded like shit talking, meant no disrespect. Seems like many products from that era were always improving and a work in progress... And pretty much any elastomer based suspension was bound to fail! Still stoked to have these forks as well as my two Hanebrinks, super neat bits of history!
Just been a bike mechanic for the last 27 years... When I worked at TiCycles we had a Zzyzx on a prototype DH frame, we used to just RAIL that thing down sets of stairs! 6" was a big deal back in '98 🤣
Hi - I've just come upon a functional Bullet Bros Zzyzx for sale - $150 sans shipping. It's a coil sprung variant. Overall cosmetic condition is "fair". The dampening is described as "weak". I really dig the fork... & could put it back into service on a suitably unusual 90's build collecting dust in my basement for over a decade. If you tell me you've got parts available I'll be less apprehensive about ending up with wall art ;). Do you think the top triple clamp has sufficient real estate for drilling/tapping to mount one of those non-clamped DH stems with four 6mm bolts? I'm asking because the Bullet Bros Zzyzx I found has an 8.25" steerer tube... & I don't think there's gonna be enough protruding for a traditional clamped stem. Thanks much for any insight ~ K
what was your serial number? mine was 3003. still have the tube it shipped in but the fork long gone. This is a google photos link to a picture of the tube they shipped in if you haven't seen one. photos.app.goo.gl/QVvhSEWn3XBz9sjH8
Hope you enjoyed the video. I know that the camera angle was a bit wonky at first but we learn from things like that. Were you expecting dust coming out of the fork?
Give the dust to Nicholas Cage. I bet he can unlock some state secrets with it.
I expected a mush of mcu remenants but not dust. My Zyzzyx still works so I'm happy about that.
Dude. This channel is gold. These forks take me way back. It's crazy to see how rudimentary the damping was. Please please please track down a Halson Designs inverted fork. I have no idea what was going on inside that thing.
I have 2 Halsons, one PDS and the original black model. I'll definitely get into those at some point!
I had two original Inversions and one PDS. Inside the inversion were simple urethane (not multicellular foam) bumpers on a skewer, which Halson invented themselves and licensed to Manitou for awhile before they switched away from skewers completely. There was no preload adjustment, but you could easily pull out the skewers by unthreading them by hand from the crown and put in new bumpers. There were four colors of bumpers- white, yellow, blue and red, in increasing order of softness. They rode well, which was mainly down to the long spring stack. Small bump absorption was fantastic for the time and the long spring stack meant they didn't pogo, and sucked up big hits reasonably well. Because each spring was 1" long and the whole stack was 7" long, you had tons of tuning options and could easily adapt the fork for different outside temps by unscrewing the spring stack by hand, an important feature with elastomer forks being so sensitive to temperature changes.
The brace weighed a ton and was flexy as hell under braking, and all the offset was in the crown, so it turned poorly. Also, the dropouts were rather long and therefore kind of flexy. Halson liked to claim that inverted forks had lower unsprung weight than conventional forks, but I am 100% sure that these forks, with their heavy, ugly and flexy solid cast alloy brace, thick-walled straight gauge small lower legs, and long, thick, somewhat flexy cast dropouts had much higher unsprung weight than a MAG21 or Quadra with their hollow magnesium braces and mag legs which didn't use a separate dropout.
Overall, they rode much better than a Quadra but worse than say a Manitou Magnum. The black hard ano finish on the legs was extremely tough. One of my two forks had one of the stanchions come loose. That happened after Halson had gone under and I had to have them epoxied into place.
I also had a PDS. That one solved a lot of the issues of the original black Inversions- it had an extra .6" of travel (2.5"), it was lighter with a hollow crown and aluminum steerer, a tubular aluminum brace, the stiffest I have ever used in both torsion and braking; offset that was all in the dropouts for lower rotating weight and easier turning. The spring stack, now 8" instead of 7", was still on their patented skewer system, but this time the springs were multicellular foam urethane, which was lighter and somewhat less sensitive to temperature. The springs were available in two additional hardnesses- pink (ultra soft) and black (ultra hard). The spring stack still had no preload and was threaded into the bottom of the fork by hand. Each spring was now 4" long instead of the 1" of the original fork, so fine tuning the softness, sag and spring progression was harder. [By this time Manitou and Rock Shox had moved away from skewers, using simple plastic discs between springs that caused less sliding friction.] These lighter springs could be retrofitted to the old forks.
The damper, which they called a brain, was actually just a metal disc, one inside each fork leg, that limited the ability of air to flow inside of the fork. It was billed as compression damping, IIRC. That metal disc attached to a long rod that was part of the crown- upper leg unit and machined I think from the same block of billet (lots of machining time on these, not a lot of profit I suppose). One of my damper rods broke from me doing something that wasn't all that stressful, ruining the fork permanently. Another problem was that the fork boot, a clear rubber boot that covered the entire upper part of the fork, was a bit stiff and rubbed on the outside of the fork legs under compression, causing more stiction. I was never impressed with the small bump sensitivity of these forks, in contrast to the originals, which were pretty damn good in that regard. Halson liked to claim that inverted forks had lower unsprung weight than the conventional forks, but I believe that these forks had slightly higher unsprung weight than that of, say, a Judy or MAG21. Finally, the PDS, like the black forks, could only take a 2.1" tire- 2.3" Z-Maxes would buzz the crown when bottoming.
Overall, very innovative but with too many flaws.
I talked to the owner once and he said that for future generations of forks they were planning on moving away from the inverted design because the slots in the upper legs would get so long they'd compromise the integrity of the fork. Instead, they were thinking of moving to oval legs.
This was terrific-so glad I didn’t get one in the day. You were spot on about the excitement about this fork-Funk was the same way. Thanks for posting
This is easily my new favorite UA-cam channel. Great to hear your funny commentary once again Greg!
Thanks Ty! It's good to have an outlet for my rambling...
This is great ! Hope you keep
It going! Look forward to seeing more
Thanks! Many more in the works, stay tuned!
What a classic! Love seeing this. Any way to fully restore it? Do you have an inversion fork? That would be fun to see.... or.... wait for it a lawwill leader fork. That would be a treat!
I'm sure I "could" restore it... Maybe in the future. The trick is finding the correct elastomers.
I have both a Halson Inversion and a Lawill Leader! They're both on the list for future videos for sure.
thanks for sharing! Amazing how far technology has come!
Thanks Chris! We live in the future...
I talked to Dan Hanebrink about this fork back in 98. The damper they used is actually a casket lid damper, and some did have coil springs. Mine has a 20mm thru axle and disk brake mount for first gen Hayes. Pretty plush when lubed properly.
Hey Ron- I think you had the DH version; this is the "freeride" version with no damper and elastomers. I have a DH on the way, i'll be sure to pull it apart as well! Stay tuned!
absolutely when cleaned and lubed very nice fork thank you for the kind words. my dad would have loved to see this
I've just see a Cannondale moto, with this fork in the front of the local jail in Vác, Hungary. I was passing by with car, and I had to stop because this fork was really "catchy" for the first sight. Sad to see, that it was also an elastomer fork.
Congrats for the videos! Keep up the good work with your channel!!!
Nice. I had one of those on a Diamondback carbon fiber hardtail back in the 90s. Was into some weird builds at the time. But yeah the fork kind of sucked. It had a ton of "stiction" and a weird bounce to it.
THANKS BUTTERMAN
I raced with a ZZYZX for about a year . I put some motorcycle shock boots on it and also serviced it after every ride. The fork is also not as solid as it looks. Eventually got rid of it and got me a monster T.
I just picked up a Santa Cruz Super 8 MK1 survivor with the zzyzx DH fork! Its an original build from 98 and has the 20mm axle w/Hayes! Now I don't dare open that thing up :)
That was a treat! Never knew the link between Dan Hanebrink (RIP) and this fork. Subscribed for the next teardown.
Thanks Dan! More to come!
Absolutely I believe each Fork at a small Hanebrink sticker incorporated into the graphics
@@jaredhanebrink1 I’m looking for a tear down of the Hanebrink fork, I’m beginning to think my Google game is weak. 😞
I had a set of magura big ego forks . Those were sweet . I had to custom make an adaptor for the disc brake .
When will we see a teardown of the coil sprung version? This was alluded to in the comments. I'm pondering buying one in rideable condition for $200 (for a custom 90's parts build using a NYC Bikes hardtail frame from 2004ish).
I really need to just clone myself and the three me's can take turns working, making videos and riding bikes 😂
Even in good shape these aren't super durable unless you keep them clean and lubed, but $200 is a good price for one in good shape.
Great video! Would love to see more linkage forks like the IRD TL5, Girvin Vector/ Noleen Crosslink, AMP F-series and Lawwill Leader 3!
Thanks! I've got all of those and a few other oddballs, hoping to do more soon!
Mine is like that on one leg. seems like it was removed, cleaned then no lock-tite put on the threads.
I have an ATC Terrex, they were bought out Zyzxx and supposed to have better machining and quantity. I post some pics of it on my Instagram for you to see
Very rad. I've been riding a pair of bullet bros zyzzyx on my 98 rocky mountain dh Race and I remember contacting ATC around 2009 for their disc brake conversion.
We've struck GOOOOOOOLLLLLLLD!
Black, dusty gold!
There was also a disc brakes mount that was keyed to the left dropout too
Future teardown idea for ya...... stratos mx6
I have a Stratos, can't remember the model. The list of possible vids is long....
@@ButterSuspension can't wait man🤙
ATC racing bought bullet bros licensing and made them for small motocross
Any chance you've found a source for replacement wiper seals for these forks?
Haven't looked TBH, never had anyone ask me to rebuild a set.
contact Hannibrink directly as you used to be able to ship them the zyzzyx and they would refit it with better seals and internals then make it 6 inches from 4 if you ask too. I bet they have some seals left.
@@thinkpadBentnoseTheBlind theyve been out of business for years
@@neiljost3591 well crap. I did not know that. this means that there may be a tech out there with that part bin of Zyzzyx seals and innards hopefully.
I just looked and can find no marks,numbers letters of any kind to tel me what year this was made,yet it was earlier than yours. Back then that could be 3-6 months.
at 1:54 there is a bike hanging with what looks to be an old Answer ProForx on it,the black frame. Please tell me what it is.
It's a Boulder Defiant!
@@ButterSuspension ty. Was I close about the fork ?
Yes, pretty sure that is a Proforx!
@@ButterSuspension being correct is cool, actually riding that old fork is another story. Might i be so very lucky that you have a tale of riding that fork perhaps?
@@thinkpadBentnoseTheBlind haven't ridden that one and most of my collection won't be ridden by me. Pretty much all the old elastomer models ride pretty badly compared to modern stuff, especially with how I ride now (old stuff ridden hard will just fall apart).
My Voodoo SS bike has a Judy FSX carbon on it now, it's just terrible 🤣
Those tiny allen bolts that hold the fork legs on the clamping area suck like that wasn't gonna strip and if it didn't strip cause of the small thread in soft 6061 al then it was because some meathead tightened them unevenly and forced it to follow the other bolt to the other side except one wasn't threading it reminds me of a song from the Doors break on through. If you want to do another tear down ill trade you for any decent forks you would be willing to part with?
Hey Sam- yeah, it's not the best design.
Not much in the collection I want to part with...sorry!
Stil have one of those at my workshop. Worst ever investment i ever did. EVER. Should add another "ever" or two. I rebuilt mine 4 or 5 times. Prob many times more. Or it felt like all i did was rebuild it with new internals. Broke the main shaft that holds the fork together. Mid air on a jump. Machined new ones several times, better version everytime. Then i got a damaged jnr-t. Lowers was cracked. So i modded the internals to fit the zzyzx. And it finally had some oil floating around in there. As it was bone dry new. And i chucked the elastomers and put speedsprings in it. But sadly it being a cheap piece of shit the stanchion anodizing got worn out after a little while. So when i finaly hung it up and got a boxxer etcetc riding was finally doable again. Was a student back then so buying something new at that time was not possible. But i could repair stuf. Until they where not repairable again. I guess the shop kind of wanted to get rid of it and advertized it as a very good fork. Best money could buy. For that amount. A local shop. Yeah i was fooled. This was pre internet forums etc. So checking reviews etc was non existing. It is a good conversation piece though. Originally it rode like a sofa. If it was warm they sunk like sitting on a sofa. In the cold... Yeah, you can probably guess.
so hilarious and awesome
Thanks Patrik! We got like a HUNDRED more videos planned...
Didn’t know those were elastomers! I still have a prototype Hanebrink and it used a White Bros damper with 125cc dirt bike spring in the other leg. At least that’s what Dan told me..... no wonder those forks were so cheap
I have 2 Hanebrinks, I'll make a video of them at some point, but they both look like one-offs, lol.
@@ButterSuspension like you said most forks we made where custom and made to order and yes a lot of one offs but most components where the same except colors and length of fork.
@@ButterSuspension Anyone have a link to a Hanebrink fork tear down or schematic? Maybe advice on a similar fork that has a tear down video? Thanks!
Dang quite a bit of shit talking but I love the video regardless cause you said some good things as well. I built the forks mainly did a lot of machining of the components as I am a CNC programmer ,and helped with much of the design changes throughout the development of the fork also the upside downs of course. Not all the models had elastomer inside we had models that had hydraulic dampers as well I had many pairs and still do they work great if you keep up on them they are quite a bit of work to keep up on but the bushings are not just plain plastic they are made from a special high-grade composite called Delrin. I’m impressed with how knowledgeable you are about the fork and also my dad Dan Hanebrink. Let me know if you’re interested in another set or if you know someone that wants a set of The ZZYZX
Hey Jared! Sorry if it sounded like shit talking, meant no disrespect. Seems like many products from that era were always improving and a work in progress... And pretty much any elastomer based suspension was bound to fail! Still stoked to have these forks as well as my two Hanebrinks, super neat bits of history!
@@ButterSuspension no worries 😉 I don’t take offense you are pretty spot on with the knowledge you have of these products . What’s your background?
Just been a bike mechanic for the last 27 years... When I worked at TiCycles we had a Zzyzx on a prototype DH frame, we used to just RAIL that thing down sets of stairs! 6" was a big deal back in '98 🤣
Hi - I've just come upon a functional Bullet Bros Zzyzx for sale - $150 sans shipping. It's a coil sprung variant. Overall cosmetic condition is "fair". The dampening is described as "weak". I really dig the fork... & could put it back into service on a suitably unusual 90's build collecting dust in my basement for over a decade.
If you tell me you've got parts available I'll be less apprehensive about ending up with wall art ;).
Do you think the top triple clamp has sufficient real estate for drilling/tapping to mount one of those non-clamped DH stems with four 6mm bolts? I'm asking because the Bullet Bros Zzyzx I found has an 8.25" steerer tube... & I don't think there's gonna be enough protruding for a traditional clamped stem.
Thanks much for any insight ~ K
i want buy this one 'brand new'
please help me!
They're out there, but hard to find in like new. Pinkbike, Ebay, etc.
I have one sitting right next to me. with factory sewn neoprene stansion boots. very much like the lizard skin ones but not velcro
Send me some pictures, greg.mackenzie@gmail.com
@@ButterSuspension shall do. gimme 5 minutes
@@ButterSuspension email sent
NEAT!
Yep.That is the last word in the suspension technology.
what was your serial number? mine was 3003. still have the tube it shipped in but the fork long gone. This is a google photos link to a picture of the tube they shipped in if you haven't seen one. photos.app.goo.gl/QVvhSEWn3XBz9sjH8
I'll have to go look, it's in storage now.
@@ButterSuspension even new it was bad and the boxxer coming out was the last nail in the coffin. Cool factor still a 10 though.