Fun bear attack facts: People traveling or camping alone are the mostly likely victims of bear attacks. 70% of bear attack fatalities in North America over the last century involved a single person. Only 9% of fatal bear attacks occurred when two or more people were present.
@@Hutzjohnyes. The real data is the lone male is the most dangerous. People think it’s mommy but statistics are clear the single male that follows you is the most likely to be deadly.
My P320 9mm has a 5 inch barrel and when loaded with 20 rounds of my Underwood JHP or Winchester M1152 flat nose rounds, the velocity is 1300 fps. Not too shabby.
TheM1152 is freakin awesome! I was really surprised and impressed with the power these things have. I have a 15 rounder loaded up with them for backup as well and am very comfortable with em!
yeah the bear gun debate always has as an assumption what the capability of a single round is. I know I can mag dump from my full sized 9mm in a fraction of the time it takes somebody to get 3 rounds off from a 44 mag. So I will take my chances with 18 rounds of hard cast 9mm.
I've carried 147gr Underwood hard cast as my woods load. Pretty similar to Buffalo Bore but about half the price, also a FN bullet. The BB stuff is great too of course. Recently I got a P30 in .40 S&W, and that will probably become my woods gun. Realistically I'd like to get a .44 Mag or at least a 10mm since I live in SW Montana. Our Grizzly bears get up to around 900 lbs here and there's a lot of 'em. If I'm camping I usually take my Mossberg 500 loaded with Brenneke Green Magic slugs.
Yes Underwood loads their autoloader ammo as hot as Buffalo Bore -- BUT Underwood revolver ammo is NOT as hot if you want (357 mag 44 mag) Buffalo Bore all the way
P30 is an awesome gun, love mine in 9mm its my duty weapon. Checked out the underwood coated hardcast. No barrel issues with a hard hitting round. Don't bother with 10mm honestly, it is kinda a waste, I got into it, its fun to shoot but 10mm pistols with the exception of the glock and a few others have serious reliability issues.
Just carried a Glock 19 with G9 9mm +P Woodsman 1200fps backcountry backpacking for 6 days in Wyoming. Learned about it from an outfitter there and since then viewed reviews and articles. Pleasantly surprised as to the positive response.
That's what I have in my personal inventory....a Smith & Wesson MP9 2.0 in flat dark earth. I had to wait an awful long time to get it because I purchased it just before the craziness of last summer started. I bought the pistol for home defense mostly but also want to use it as a sidearm during hunting trips. So your tip on the hard cast ammo and the hollow points was really helpful. Thanks for posting.
Great advice for those who dont know. I myself carry buffalo bore heavy outdoorsman 180 grain cast 357 mag in my 6 inch ruger GP100. we dont have brown bears here in kentucky but we have had a few bigfoot sightings lol
Well don't shoot a Bigfoot with a 357, I truly don't believe it's enough, there are stories of them being shot with a 30-06 and they get back up and run off, you need to upgrade to at least a 454 Casull for bigfoot. You're welcome!
@@Hutzjohn Don’t shoot any Bigfoot at all unless one of them is attacking you. But you are correct, you do need more than 357 to take on a fully grown adult, especially out here in the PNW. I’ve seen 19im footprints from on of them, and even larger footprints of something I don’t think even a Sasquatch could leave. I don’t know what left them, but I wouldn’t take anything less than a 50 cal for whatever it was. Believe me or not, the footprints were over 35 inches long and the distance from the toes of its back foot to the heal of its front foot was 8ft on a somewhat uphill slope. I don’t know what it is, and honestly I don’t think I wanna know cause I honestly couldn’t believe it when I seen it. The night before finding the prints, I seen what looked like 2 softball sized blue orbs about 10-11ft up between some trees just hanging out there while I was overcome with the strongest sense of danger and fear I’ve ever felt in my life. What was weird was they were one on top of the other instead of side by side and they never blinked like eye shine would
@@thrasher2094 Did you ever see one? I personally believe bigfoot can see, hear and smell FAR better than humans. No one will ever sneak-up one one in the dark with night-vision because I also believe they can see the infrared spectrum. I think Patterson-Gimlin got their film because their horses scents hid their human scent and were able to get that close. I have heard of a mountain species that are much larger then regular bigfoot. I don't want to see one up close either, too many people go missing without a trace. They claim there are many sightings here in the Smoky Mountain National Park also. But I'm really not sure what took little Dennis Martin a bigfoot or a dogman.
I bought some Buffalo Bore 9 mm +P 147 Gr Truncated for my next hiking adventure out West. I have a S&W M&P Shield Plus for hiking, it came with a 13 rd magazine and I bought a couple of 15 rd mags for backup. I love my Glock M 22 in 40 S&W, but it is heavier than I want to carry while hiking. Glad to see some first-hand field testing to back up your position.
For woods carry I would use Underwood Hard Cast Flat Nose. The +P versions of every caliber are extremely impressive. Even the .380 penetrates 36+ inches of gel.
I never though the 44 Mag had too much recoil but I also only ever fired a large, heavy revolver. The single action mode is hard to use quickly, and they are heavy so they are slower to bring up. Still, very fun. I really want a Ruger Redhawk one day
Practice makes progress. 44. Is hard on the wallet but fulfilling and alot of fun to shoot steel plates with. And you can rest assured if you need to use it in a situation vs man or beast.. one shot would more than likely do it.
i had stumbled upon this video and i must admit i was rather surprized. its really nice to hear logical discussions when it comes to ballistics and how projectiles actually work in flesh. all too often when watching videos they NEVER bring up the fact that each animal is different and has different densities such as muscle and bone. they might shoot a gel block, but that is not at all realistic. unles you throw in some bone and other tissues. i understand the need for gel blocks, but it gives people an unrealistic idea of how bullets actually work in flesh. you have gained a sub simply from this video. if all the other videos are from the point of view of common sense and actual science, im happy to sub. keep kickin ass.
My parents live in the U.P Michigan in the middle of 1000 acres of national forest and my parents go on walks and I keep telling my dad he should be carrying a firearm, something, but their black bears up there are super skittish but I’m more worried about the wolves! 😳
You shouldn't recommend Hollow point rounds that will not penetrate the bone density like that of bear. FMJ would be a better choice in these types of situations where penetration is top priority rather than a expanding bullet that will not pass through most bone density's like that of a bear.
I’m getting a bit over 500lbs of energy from my 9mm and I’m sure that you already knew this is true before making this video but thanks for spreading knowledge and getting the liberties that the founding fathers along with GOD himself meant for us to have God Bless All 🇺🇸GOD BLESS AMERICA🇺🇸
Agree with your basic points. It happens that I have two .40's so I use those. The specialty bullets that BB loads are in many cases produced by a company called Rimrock Bullets in (I think) Montana. They do sell to the public and are expensive for lead bullets but the quality is just outstanding. I have purchased 200 gr. flat nose for the .40 and 158 gr. soft lead HP for .38/357 (old FBI load). I can't say for sure if they are the source for the 9mm but they list the same weights and styles and they do advertise that they make the .358, .40, .452 for BB.
I carry a Girsan 9mm and carry 3 mags. My first 7 rounds are 147 gr Hard cast. I then alternate a 124 gr +p HP with the 147 gr. hard cast. My hunting area has coyote, feral hog, black bear along with deer. Informative video.
You should test that EXACT load order at the range before you carry it in the woods if you haven't already. And rapid firing too like you would in an emergency situation with a bear. I loaded 2 different types of 9mm ammo in my carbine that had never failed before individually, and for some reason having 2 different strength loads firing rapidly would consistently cause failures to fire on the 2nd or 3rd round because my recoil spring would react differently to each load. I never would have thought of that, and had I needed to rely on that alternating load with my life, I would probably be dead. Good to always test how different ammos can fire together if you're going to carry them out in the wild.
This was 2 years ago so im not sure if these rounds where out at the time but the SIG Elite Performance is a 9mm +p round with the flat tip, They are 90 grain and leave the muzzle at around 1379 fps. A box of 50 here in NC, bought 3 days ago (1/1/23) was $50.
I carry a 45 Colt revolving pistol with Lehigh Defense's Solid Copper 250 grain Xtreme Penetrator @ 1000 fps (standard pressure) 45 Colt round for bear protection. The pistol is all stainless steal which makes for low recoil. The 45 Colt is as big of a round I can control easily enough to get all shots off quickly. I wouldn't want less and can not rightly handle more, so it is just right for me as a defense/protection gun. Revolvers have far less issues, such as they never fail to eject or fail to feed. No need to learn the TAP-RACK-SLAP routine. If a bear charges from 30 feet one has 3 seconds to respond, and TAPPING-RACKING-SLAPPING is a waste of precious time. For this reason revolvers rule. Revolvers fire rate is as fast as a semi-auto too, so one gets the best of both worlds. Best way to hit a bear coming fast at you is get on one knee, so that your gun is at the same level as the bear's head. This way you do not have to try and lead the bear but rather just take aim and fire.
My only experience comes from Montana. They get scary durring the rut. A friend of mine was treed by a charging moose that tried to knock down the tree.
I'm late to the party here...if you reload, Rim Rock bullets sells the same bullet that buffalo bore loads in 9mm and many other calibers. Only problem is they don't feed right in one of my 9mm's. They work fine in the others. I load it to 1070 fps out of a 4 inch
When I am carrying photographic equipment in the woods, instead of a rifle or shotgun, I routinely carry a handgun for protection from black bears, feral hogs, and wild dogs. My handgun of choice is a 6-inch 357 magnum Smith & Wesson loaded with 180 grain flat-nose hard-cast lead ammo. When I feel the need for more fire power than my 6-shot 357 magnum revolver delivers, I have the option of carrying a 6-inch HK 45 semi-automatic loaded with twelve 255 grain flat-nose hard-cast lead ammo. Until your video, I had never considered using my 5-inch 9mm handgun loaded with fifteen 147 grain +P hard-cast lead ammo. In the future, I may consider carrying it as my backup woods handgun but I would not feel safe carrying it as a primary. Thanks for the video.
Not to start an argument, but statistically your better off with the 45 or 40. 357 hasn't been a reliable defense tool for bears. A majority of the people who have tried to use 357 for self defense, usually drop the bear on the last round, but end up seriously injured from the bear. 357 dosen't seem to be an instant lights out on bears the way it is with people.
If I HAVE to use a 9mm for the woods, it's definitely gonna be an underwood extreme penetrator, 135 grain Hornady Critical DUTY (not defense), Federal hydrashok "DEEP", or Fort Scott TUI..now personally in the woods I like to carry a Ruger GP100 .357 mag loaded with the old school remington 158grain SJHP (if ya know ya know) in combination with a .357 Henry lever action.
I also have the Fort Scott TUI rounds. I have 2 boxes of those. We might be going to Gatlinburg, TN this summer. I know if we do some walking around I will for sure have my pistol on me with the TUI in it along with extra magazines just in case the need arises
Underwood makes a hard cast truncated 9mm for half the price of Buffalo Bore. Pretty much all Underwood ammo is half the price of Buffalo Bore. Federal also has a line of ammo called Solid Core. It's a hard cast 147 grain 9mm +P with their Syntech coating.
Phil Shoemaker got very "LUCKY" when he killed that Alaskan grizzly with a Buffalo Bore 9mm 147grain Outdoorsman...his last round hit the bears spinal cord but his first 7 rounds didn't even slow the bear down! His pistol was a S&W 3954 (8 round mag, 3.5 inch barrel). But it's still probably a good round for everything under 600 Lbs. in the lower 48. I'm going to revise this and say 400 pound max instead of 600.
He got lucky but tons of bears have been killed with 9,40, and 45 pistols. An argument can be made that a smaller caliber with the right ammo can be just as effective as 10mm, or 44.
There's more official reports out there of people killing brown bears in defense in 9mm 45acp 10mm and 44 magnum. Everything else is larger calibers where people have said they were lucky to kill the bear because of the firearms recoil. 9mm is a good modern bullet. They used to carry 45 colt in the western days and kill brown bears. Modern 9mm trump's those loads in speed and energy. I think anyone is lucky to kill a bear trying to kill them regardless of what they have
@@zachman9000100 I'm unaware of these reports point me to the website I want to read them. The history I read stated the two MOST FEARED terrors in the "old west" were fires because they couldn't control them and grizzly bears because they did NOT have enough firepower in their weapons to stop/kill them. It took full hunting parties with muzzle loader to kill a grizzly. The 45-70 was not produced until 1873 and MOST did not or could not get one (too expensive). The 45 Colt was not developed until 1872 and would not kill a grizzly. The 44-40 rifle (1873) was considered a toy against a grizzly. Now you're trying to tell me all the history I have read is wrong == please tell me where your getting your information. There's a video called the truth about 10mm and bears on here --- watch it and learn something 10mm and 44 magnums are high pressure rounds and can get it done with good shot placement. I'm taking it you did not bother to read the whole Phil Shoemaker story.
Your numbers are arbitrary and not scientifically backed!!! I saw the pictures of that bear and it was gonna die either way and fast!!! He had full penetration through vital organs.
@@Wildwestwrangler TOO BAD you're not smart enough to have read MR. Shoemakers story --- it was his last shot that stopped the bear ------ don't be so damned dumb read before you comment ---
I just picked up a Glock 19 Gen 5 which I plan on using for my woods carry. I bought a bunch of 124 grain round nose FMJ and a bunch of 115 grain round nose FMJ mostly for target shooting but I will definitely be looking for a flat nose 9 mm round for my woods carry now.
I carry a 40 S&W with a 5" barrel. Biggest animals here are mountain lions and smaller black bears. I don't think I've ever seen a black bear here breaking 325 lbs
357 sig is absolutely phenomenal for outdoors carry as well if you can find ammo. Absolutely blazing velocity great penetration and damage similar to 10mm in my opinion.
I enjoyed watching your video,i;m not spending two bucks a shot for over pressured overpriced ammo in 9mm.Years ago i was hiking in the mountains alone and had a Black bear come right up on me and i was forced to stop the bear with my CZ-75 9mm with 115 grain hard ball ammo,the gun,the ammo and my shooting was spot on, everything happened fast and all my years of shooting and quick draw paid off at that moment. I do sometimes flatten the tips of hardball ammo with a file to make flat points out of them, but i have not tried them on any animals to report their performance not in Grizzly country so i still carry my nines.
With the new XMD 10mm elite I’m going with that got a woods carry gun, it’s perfect. The size of a Glock 19 not the 20 and yet it’s the power of the 10mm. I need it as a man.
I slip a Taurus 605 (snub nose .357) in my back pocket when I go to the barn to feed the horses. I have been loading it for potential self defense against humans. But, last night there was a hog running around. So....now I'm thinking maybe it would be prudent to change my choice of loads.
Try 9mm +P+ in the extreme penetrator for bigger animals. It’s hard to even catch the extreme penetrator in gel and water. People underestimate the 9mm but it penetrate deep, with correct Ammo, and most people can shoot it much better than the bigger rounds. There’s a lot of grizzly kills with a 9mm on the record, believe it or not. GOD BLESS YOU ALL
A 9mm will get the job done on hogs. We tested the 124 hst +p a while back, and it expanded well, and made it to the off sized shoulder on a 150 pound hog. I know the cool kids dont like .40 much anymore, but with longshot powder, im getting right at 1200 fps with a flat nose 180 gtain cast bullet from a glock 23, which is a 9mm size pistol. It will shoot clean through most hogs. I have chronographed 180 grain factory 10mm loads that didnt shoot that fast.
I like the Underwood extreme penetrator or defender, got the 90 grain and they go 1,450fps, ultimately I’d just bring my 10mm if I’m worried about large predators like you said. 👍🏻
To be honest, against a bear, 90g 1450fps is too light and too fast. It doesn't impact dense enough to actually penetrate and cause enough damage. Again, if bears are your concern. That 1450fps will come to a quick halt probably within 12 inches of hitting bear tissue. 90g is too light weight. I'd take your 10mm to be safe lol.
@@abc123def98I've never had a run in with any animal as of yet . I have done a lot of test with the defender. It really is barrier blind . Metal , glass , wood (doors) etc . Within reason . I'd think that if you are woods carrying . Its not a compact or pocket pistol. I have a 4.4 inch barrel. I'd trust it against a black bear mountain lion or Bob cat .
Most interesting video I’ve watched in a while. We have different views in some areas. I believe the heavier handgun calibers are best reserved for revolvers and that you can back off to a everyday carry configuration to something like the Ruger SP101. I use my Ruger GP100 for woods carry loaded with BB hunting rounds but out and about I carry my SP101 with the BB Heavy 38 Spl +P 158 grain “FBI” loads. I can’t get past the idea that those heavy 9mm or 10mm rounds intended for hunting are not a good choice for Polymer-framed pistols. The recoil profile alone puts a lot of stress on the frame and action, maybe enough to cause feeding or other reliability issues. I’m sure there are folks here that would say: works fine, I do it all the time. I’m not one of them. Again, great video.
My wife is super recoil sensitive so the 9mm Buffalo Bore is as hot as I can go. I'm researching pistols for her to rent and see what she likes as well as which firearms will reliably cycle that load. This issue is something that isn't really discussed. I need her to be able to defend herself on a hunt as well as help me out. Thanks for your video sir. It was helpful and informative.
I'd recommend the heaviest pistol you can find so it takes down recoil a bit. You might also consider something like an AR pistol. Ruger makes an AR pistol in 350 legend that shoots like a 9mm but hits like a .357 magnum. That might be a good choice for her too
@@GunTradition Yes sir, I agree with the heavy handgun. It needs to be something she can carry along with her on a hunt. It's a balancing act you know. Heavy pistol but not too heavy. Big pistol but not too big lol. Something to go in a chest rig so she can carry her hunting rifle as well. Thank you for the tips sir.
Carry 10mm,.41mag or .44 mag if you're in grizzly country. Larry Kelly tells of a grizzly coming into their cabin and he emptied his .44 magnum loaded with soft points and a guide in the cabin with him shot and killed it with a large caliber rifle. None of the handgun rounds had penetrated through the fat.
So many people underestimate the 9mm. The 9mm is a good wood carry gun. Too many think you need a hand canyon for wildlife. People need to really do their research before committing. Too many cases on record with 9mm killing bears. Out of all those cases, no one got hurt or killed by the bear. Now they do have cases, with those hand canyons 44 mag and up, with people being hurt and killed missing their shot. I would take a 9mm any day over 44 mag. Lots of people will buy a 44, mag and only go to the range a few times, thinking they're ready for bear defense. That right there is why those people got, hurt or killed going up against a bear, with a 44 or higher in caliber, the lack of training.
The 9 mm has taken deer with ease with single chest plenty of times. A 9 mm is not bad round. A 9 mm is not great for bear although. The 357 is fine for black bear or elk even or 10 mm as well. I debate the 357 or 10 is good for grizzly or moose although. I think for moose or grizzly bear I would go 44 magnum.
Are there .40 loads available that are about as hot as some 10mm's? Is that a good option for even larger animals? I ask because I do have a Glock 23, and it's hard to find Glock 20 G3's available, which is the only legal option for CA.
I mostly conceal carry pistols but in the woods I generally open carry a Ruger Redhawk .45 Colt with 325 gr hard cast @ 1400 fps. The only issues I've ever had was a racoon that wondered by within 50' acting strange. It was making a hissing noise and snapping it's teeth but appeared to not be aware of my presence (rabid?) and a buck deer that came within 30' snorting, blowing, pawing and head tossing (The closest I've ever come to firing a round in self defense). The largest animals I've seen in the woods are 300 lb hogs and bear. Considering I have spent a fair amount of time in the woods in the last 50 years I suspect the actual risks are very low, but better to be prepared and not need than need and not be prepared.
Living in Northern WI, and knowing Black Bear and Big Cats are in the area, My summertime carry is a 15 round full size 9mm with standard FMJ. I suspect multiple rounds into the front of a charging wild animal will change their mind fairly quickly.
I recall a large Brown Bear that was killed with a 9mm 147gr hard cast +p but the guy had to shoot it 14 times. A .40s&w to me is the general purpose woods/carry pistol. Because while you can buy special hard cast loads for 9mm it's not cheaper than .40s&w 180gr fmj.
I want to add this comment. This guy knows what he's talking about. I live and breathe country living every day. I've killed a lot of animals over the years with various different calibers and can tell you his results resonate with mine in Idaho.
They're actually not bad. The first lot were recalled due to poor quality control. Remington re-released it after fixing the problems, but most people wouldn't trust it. I will say that it likes to be clean. It tends to have issues after 200 rounds. That's when mine likes to be cleaned up a bit.
Excellent insightful important discussion! Spot on truthfully well said on avoiding using pointed nose Handgun bullets! Rather use only Flat Nose Bullets .the Truncated Flat Nose 9mm rounds. I am the inventor of a RFN speciality bullet series to stop, put down apex predatorial beasts like; Wild Boars and Bears, mainly for acheiving maximum capability out of antique style Black Powder cap&ball percussion revolvers. With a stout powder loads and my harder cast lead Universal RFN Bullets, one can effectively defend themselves or hunt and harvest dangerous apex predatorial beasts and bring yourself safely home. The "key" mittagating factors to put down a; Bear or Wild Boar, Felines and Herbivores ; Moose, Wapati ( Elk) etc. With a Handgun bullets is; Usually if you can stop, kill a Wild Boar/ Hog with a 9mm you should be good to go for taking down a Bear. However, Firstly, you must establish beyond a doupt with your 9mm pistol manufacturer, and or a competent Gunsmith; that you can safely fire these hotter 9mm+P hotter rounds in your said individual model type of 9mm pistol with those hotter + P rounds. Secondly; is that the bullets be of made of a hard metal either Hand cast Lead or Solid Copper. Thirdly; the bullet's should be of a;"Flat Nose" "Truncated" cylindrical design. Reasin being is that Flat Nose Bullets, are designed to have a strait trajectory path and penetraite deep into Skin, Fat and Bone teaching vital organs Fourthly; the shell casing should be loaded with a substantial load of hot stout powder. Fifthly; you; the Defender need to be knowledgeable of where the Vital Organs and Spinal Areas to aim for are on the said dangerous beasts. Several reputable ammunition Companies make such speciality loaded ammunition. Amongst such are; Underwood Ammunition offers their noted Hard Cast 147 grain Flat Nose Truncated + P rounds that are specially coated with Underwood's HI Tek sealing finish can safety be fired out of Glock gen 1 to 4 standard hexagonal barrels. These are currently on sale as the writing this comment. As well as the, Bufallo Bore brand with their, 147 + P Outdoorsman and lastly, "Choice Ammunition's"; 148 + P version claimed to produce the most impact of, 515 Ft Lbs of Energy.
What a coincidence, I have recently been listening to true bear attack/mauling stories and watching gun videos and boom, this is like a perfect and between
Your going to get attacked by the caliber snobs. 9 is sufficient for everything except griz, pissed off moose, large hog. In doubt get a 40. For the three mentioned get a 10.
I like my Glock 20. I carry 10mm 180 grain holow points, plink with the cheapest 10mm or 40 cal ammo, and have a box of 220 grain Buffalo Bore ammo for when I go up north.
I am with you there. I carry a glock 20 with a kkm precision barrel and 220 grain buffalo bore hard casts. I did also change out my recoil spring from the 17 pound factory spring to a 21 pound just to be certain it will cycle no matter what. Also threw some ameriglo spartan trooper combat sights on it. I know 44 has more power but I shoot the 10mm more accurate and when it comes down to it 16 rounds sounds a heck of a lot better than 6
Here in west ky we dont have any bears but there has been black panther sightings and for sure mountain lions. My 9mm woods carry is buffalo bore 124 grain +p+ But if im in the woods at night im packing my 6 inch gp 100 357 mag loaded with buffalo bore 158 grain jhp.
@@nelsonr1467 i agree. I have some buffalo nore cast heavy outdoorsman in 9mm and 357. But you are right leave the HP ammo at home for meth heads hahaha
More people are hurt outdoors from trips/falls and atmospheric exposure than animal interactions. You’ll decide for yourself what you’re comfortable walking with. My pack weight goes up significantly in brown habitat. Food canisters are an albatross around the neck, and I pack the stove and dishes inside to leave 1/2 mile from camp. A few days in the woods with my wife means I’m carrying 2 of the full size ones. As for your question, PCCs are really cool, and a more hearing-healthy choice. OTOH, a 308 or 12ga can be had at the same weight.
@nickolasthefrog The capacity of the PC 9 is a game changer with the mag pul PC backpacker stock. Plus with onboard ammo storage and breaks down into two pieces plus a red ,or green dot installed.
@@malibujoe01 That all sounds great for vehicle stowage and makes for easy trips to the range. If you have average handgun skills, a long gun is a reasonable choice. Stowed in a bag is not at ready. What I favor for woods is chest carry of a handgun with bear spray out front for ambi draw. Kit Bags are good but hotter than holsters. Either stays on when the pack comes off, basically 24/7. The reason for the spray is that my first hint of the animal encounter will be when it’s on top of me, and we’ll both suck OC together. The firearm is more of a 3rd party aid when considering animals that are faster and quieter than people.
@nickolasthefrog I don't know if you have a family ? You sound capable, but take an average person to the range with your handgun, and a Ruger PC 9 mm carbine at 25yds. Then compare both targets? I already know which one will be better 😌
@@malibujoe01 Hiking with the Baby K’Tan moved the handgun to pocket. Couldn’t imagine adding a slung longarm to all that. Anyway, that was just southern forest (black bear and cougar habitat) where my dogs got to tag along.
A 9mm.? No, tho its better than nothing............. If there are real threats, carry a 12 Guage shotgun, loaded with slugs and 00 buck, carried on a sling and maintain situational awareness..When you hit the mountains always have a good companion with you. .
I mean, it'll punch a deep hole, but it's a barn small hole on a big animal. Moose can get ridiculously large. You could pop a lung with it and have very little effect on a large animal because the hole is so small.
I’ll still take a big bore non-magnum revolver. Capacity really isn’t an issue if something is actually charging you. Cast bullets in revolvers have wide, sharp meplats that open a much larger wound channel than the rounded edge truncated cones found in autoloader rounds. Buffalo Bore uses Rim Rock bullets. They’re pretty good quality and not badly priced if you don’t cast your own.
Considering the 9mm and 10mm Glock cost about the same. Buy a 10mm Glock 20. Get some hard cast coated underwood ammo.. just my opinion. The Glock 20 is easy to control walking forward while engaging a target. Your able to keep it on target, so unload that clip don't be shy. I live in grizzly country. Mountain lions just walked my driveway yesterday. Occasionally they stalk me but I can see them in the wood line. I got plenty of time to get my gun!
Speaking of lungs. If you look at a chest x-ray, the lungs are black. That’s because there is very little de duty to the tissue. If you make it to the lungs, you can make it to the heart or aorta and hopefully take out some pulmonary arteries and pierce some bronchi and let a little blood in. An angry animal won’t stop immediately from that, but if you hit the aorta or even a subclavian artery, the animal likely will have very little time left.
Don't kid yourself. Until the threat is stopped, don't stop shooting. A wounded animal is incredibly dangerous. Shooting once or twice and waiting to see what happens can get you hurt or killed.
Some bears have been killed by 9mm rounds. True. Many many many many many more bears have been wounded or unaffected by 9mm rounds. Hunters skinning black bears do find 9mm rounds stuck in the fatty layer under the hair and skin, not having penetrated. Just because you like the 9mm round, that doesn't mean it is good for bear. It isn't. But it's your life and your funeral.
The only 9mm round I'd consider is Buffalo Bore Heavy Outdoorsmen, and not in big bear country. That round will penetrate 2-3 times as far as a standard fmj. It's enough for your average black bear, but at the same time, I really prefer more than enough.
@@GunTradition My perspective comes from Grizzlies being my neighbors. I've seen them up close.. I've also seen 2 gargantuan black bears. .45 colt or .44 magnum for me. No way I would carry a 9mm.
What it truly comes down do is how well can you handle the weapon and round. A .500 S&W, .454 Casull, .44 mag or even .357 mag may be too much for most people fire effectively let alone get an efficient follow up. Where as a 9mm, some one may be more likely to be comfortable to carry and be proficient in handling of the weapon.
@@jtjackson365 True. If you can't handle the round, you won't hit the bear. But the round needs to be able to actually penetrate and do damage. The 9mm can't do that to a big bear with any reliability. And you won't have time for more than MAYBE 3 shots if a bear charges, so all that extra capacity won't help you. You won't make up for the lack of firepower with spray and pray under those circumstances.
I'll just carry a 357 sig way better than a 9mm facts I would not trust a 9mm to save my life from a bear that's just crazy you guys just have to much faith in the 9mm 💯
I know more than 1 guy who was charged by a rutting moose. They get very aggressive. I know several Canadian and Alaskan guides who fear moose more than grizzly.
@@GunTradition I understand that, I’m talking about calling them a “critter”. To me that’s like small rodents, rabbits, coons. I stood by a full Bull moose at Yellowstone, yes they are gigantic and they have more deaths there from moose attacks than Grizzly. 😳
Moose kill more people in North America than grizzlies and black bears combined. If a moose stomps you it will turn your internal organs into mush. Do everything you can to stay on your feet if you get in an encounter with an aggressive moose.
I've killed enough deer to know that you can't instantly incapacitate large animals with soft tissue damage alone no matter how powerful your weapon is. That's why, for defense against dangerous animals like bear and moose, I want a weapon that will give me the highest possible chance of hitting the brain or spinal column. That means I want high capacity, low recoil, a light DA trigger, a platform that facilitates regular training, while having adequate penetration. My Glock 9mm pistols check all of those boxes. A revolver only checks the last. With a typical 44 Magnum revolver you only get six chances to land a critical hit, dramatically higher recoil, a long and heavy DA trigger, and the weapon won't be trained with due to ammo prices, and because the weapon itself is very expensive so I might not have a spare, so I may not feel comfortable putting heavy wear and tear on it even if I could afford ammo for it. The 9mm pistol is the clear winner here.
9mm is fine for about everything. If I'm woods walking in apex predator territory I sling a mk18 with greentips. 30 rounds into just about everything will suffice, and even if u only hit with half, you'll be ok
Fun bear attack facts:
People traveling or camping alone are the mostly likely victims of bear attacks. 70% of bear attack fatalities in North America over the last century involved a single person.
Only 9% of fatal bear attacks occurred when two or more people were present.
That sounds about right compared to the storries I've read.
From what I understand most bear attacks are from rogue males attacking people as a food source.
Most bear attacks are from sows protecting there cubs.
@@Hutzjohnyes. The real data is the lone male is the most dangerous. People think it’s mommy but statistics are clear the single male that follows you is the most likely to be deadly.
That's why you carry your trusted firearm.
My P320 9mm has a 5 inch barrel and when loaded with 20 rounds of my Underwood JHP or Winchester M1152 flat nose rounds, the velocity is 1300 fps. Not too shabby.
I carry buffalo bore 147 grain +p+ at 1300 fps as well. I havent shot any yet but its saposed to be the most powerfull 9mm you can buy.
TheM1152 is freakin awesome! I was really surprised and impressed with the power these things have. I have a 15 rounder loaded up with them for backup as well and am very comfortable with em!
A p320? Grey tier loot
You need hardcast for the woods not jhp
yeah the bear gun debate always has as an assumption what the capability of a single round is. I know I can mag dump from my full sized 9mm in a fraction of the time it takes somebody to get 3 rounds off from a 44 mag. So I will take my chances with 18 rounds of hard cast 9mm.
I've carried 147gr Underwood hard cast as my woods load. Pretty similar to Buffalo Bore but about half the price, also a FN bullet. The BB stuff is great too of course. Recently I got a P30 in .40 S&W, and that will probably become my woods gun. Realistically I'd like to get a .44 Mag or at least a 10mm since I live in SW Montana. Our Grizzly bears get up to around 900 lbs here and there's a lot of 'em. If I'm camping I usually take my Mossberg 500 loaded with Brenneke Green Magic slugs.
I haven't tried the Underwood ammo, but it looks pretty similar to Buffalo Bore. Those Breneke slugs are impressive hitters.
That's what I use or the Underwood ammo extreme penetrators
Check out the new Springfield XDM elite 10 mm if you're wanting to go 10 mm
Yes Underwood loads their autoloader ammo as hot as Buffalo Bore -- BUT Underwood revolver ammo is NOT as hot if you want (357 mag 44 mag) Buffalo Bore all the way
P30 is an awesome gun, love mine in 9mm its my duty weapon. Checked out the underwood coated hardcast. No barrel issues with a hard hitting round. Don't bother with 10mm honestly, it is kinda a waste, I got into it, its fun to shoot but 10mm pistols with the exception of the glock and a few others have serious reliability issues.
Just carried a Glock 19 with G9 9mm +P Woodsman 1200fps backcountry backpacking for 6 days in Wyoming. Learned about it from an outfitter there and since then viewed reviews and articles. Pleasantly surprised as to the positive response.
I live in Alaska and my woods carry is the Xdm 10mm loaded with underwood 200 grain HC at 1250 fps and 700 fp.
Hey!! A fellow Alaskan 😁 I carry the same ammo in my glock 20 and glock 40
That's what I have in my personal inventory....a Smith & Wesson MP9 2.0 in flat dark earth. I had to wait an awful long time to get it because I purchased it just before the craziness of last summer started. I bought the pistol for home defense mostly but also want to use it as a sidearm during hunting trips. So your tip on the hard cast ammo and the hollow points was really helpful. Thanks for posting.
Sounds like a solid plan, Juan.
Great advice for those who dont know.
I myself carry buffalo bore heavy outdoorsman 180 grain cast 357 mag in my 6 inch ruger GP100. we dont have brown bears here in kentucky but we have had a few bigfoot sightings lol
Well don't shoot a Bigfoot with a 357, I truly don't believe it's enough, there are stories of them being shot with a 30-06 and they get back up and run off, you need to upgrade to at least a 454 Casull for bigfoot. You're welcome!
@@Hutzjohn Don’t shoot any Bigfoot at all unless one of them is attacking you. But you are correct, you do need more than 357 to take on a fully grown adult, especially out here in the PNW. I’ve seen 19im footprints from on of them, and even larger footprints of something I don’t think even a Sasquatch could leave. I don’t know what left them, but I wouldn’t take anything less than a 50 cal for whatever it was. Believe me or not, the footprints were over 35 inches long and the distance from the toes of its back foot to the heal of its front foot was 8ft on a somewhat uphill slope. I don’t know what it is, and honestly I don’t think I wanna know cause I honestly couldn’t believe it when I seen it. The night before finding the prints, I seen what looked like 2 softball sized blue orbs about 10-11ft up between some trees just hanging out there while I was overcome with the strongest sense of danger and fear I’ve ever felt in my life. What was weird was they were one on top of the other instead of side by side and they never blinked like eye shine would
@@thrasher2094 Did you ever see one? I personally believe bigfoot can see, hear and smell FAR better than humans. No one will ever sneak-up one one in the dark with night-vision because I also believe they can see the infrared spectrum. I think Patterson-Gimlin got their film because their horses scents hid their human scent and were able to get that close. I have heard of a mountain species that are much larger then regular bigfoot. I don't want to see one up close either, too many people go missing without a trace. They claim there are many sightings here in the Smoky Mountain National Park also. But I'm really not sure what took little Dennis Martin a bigfoot or a dogman.
357 has been very ineffective in bear attacks. I definitely would take a shit at a bigfoot or one of them damn dogmen with a 357
Same but in my 3” sp101
I bought some Buffalo Bore 9 mm +P 147 Gr Truncated for my next hiking adventure out West. I have a S&W M&P Shield Plus for hiking, it came with a 13 rd magazine and I bought a couple of 15 rd mags for backup. I love my Glock M 22 in 40 S&W, but it is heavier than I want to carry while hiking. Glad to see some first-hand field testing to back up your position.
For woods carry I would use Underwood Hard Cast Flat Nose. The +P versions of every caliber are extremely impressive. Even the .380 penetrates 36+ inches of gel.
yes! i love underwood ammo!
Problem with the 41 magnum or the 44 magnum is most people cannot shoot that well during target practice let alone in a defensive situation
I never though the 44 Mag had too much recoil but I also only ever fired a large, heavy revolver. The single action mode is hard to use quickly, and they are heavy so they are slower to bring up. Still, very fun. I really want a Ruger Redhawk one day
Practice makes progress. 44. Is hard on the wallet but fulfilling and alot of fun to shoot steel plates with. And you can rest assured if you need to use it in a situation vs man or beast.. one shot would more than likely do it.
Yep, that's why I use ,9mm or 10mm
9 mm where it's at even when it comes to bear defense 9mm has it covered
@@andylipsco9783 . Yeah I use underwood extreme penatrators +p and their hard cast 147 grain +p hunting ammo
i had stumbled upon this video and i must admit i was rather surprized. its really nice to hear logical discussions when it comes to ballistics and how projectiles actually work in flesh. all too often when watching videos they NEVER bring up the fact that each animal is different and has different densities such as muscle and bone. they might shoot a gel block, but that is not at all realistic. unles you throw in some bone and other tissues. i understand the need for gel blocks, but it gives people an unrealistic idea of how bullets actually work in flesh. you have gained a sub simply from this video. if all the other videos are from the point of view of common sense and actual science, im happy to sub. keep kickin ass.
Underwood makes a fantastic flat nose, both copper jacket and Hardcast lead. In 124 and 147 grain... Great Ammo.
yes!
One of the best, most informative and entertaining vids I've seen in a long time
Thanks man this helped me so much
Incredible & definitive video!! Loved seeing the evidence & type of 9MM to buy.
I have the Glock 20 for the woods. Thanks for the 9mm bullet tips. In Georgia, black bear is the heaviest we’ll see.
I really want to go on another bear hunt, it's been awhile.
My parents live in the U.P Michigan in the middle of 1000 acres of national forest and my parents go on walks and I keep telling my dad he should be carrying a firearm, something, but their black bears up there are super skittish but I’m more worried about the wolves! 😳
@@michigunsanta8680 Sell him on a snub or 3" 357. Revolver. 5/6 shots 500/700 ftlbs in a small package
Myself I like a good .357 but if 9mm is what you have winchester active duty is another option in 9mm.
Glad to see someone cover this topic. Well done
You shouldn't recommend Hollow point rounds that will not penetrate the bone density like that of bear. FMJ would be a better choice in these types of situations where penetration is top priority rather than a expanding bullet that will not pass through most bone density's like that of a bear.
Yes sir!
Exactly what I thought too
They will open up inside the fat of a large bear to very little effect.
Go with hard cast…
Flat nose, or fort Scott T.U.I (tumble upon impact). Best of both worlds. They're fmj rounds that tumble reliably causing massive wounds
i respect your fact on 9mm thats why i love that round
I’m getting a bit over 500lbs of energy from my 9mm and I’m sure that you already knew this is true before making this video but thanks for spreading knowledge and getting the liberties that the founding fathers along with GOD himself meant for us to have
God Bless All
🇺🇸GOD BLESS AMERICA🇺🇸
Impressive.what are you using?
Agree with your basic points. It happens that I have two .40's so I use those. The specialty bullets that BB loads are in many cases produced by a company called Rimrock Bullets in (I think) Montana. They do sell to the public and are expensive for lead bullets but the quality is just outstanding. I have purchased 200 gr. flat nose for the .40 and 158 gr. soft lead HP for .38/357 (old FBI load). I can't say for sure if they are the source for the 9mm but they list the same weights and styles and they do advertise that they make the .358, .40, .452 for BB.
Now that's intetesting!
.40 short and weak. Laughs in 10mm that made the .40 for people that can’t handle a little recoil.
I carry a Girsan 9mm and carry 3 mags. My first 7 rounds are 147 gr Hard cast. I then alternate a 124 gr +p HP with the 147 gr. hard cast. My hunting area has coyote, feral hog, black bear along with deer. Informative video.
You should test that EXACT load order at the range before you carry it in the woods if you haven't already. And rapid firing too like you would in an emergency situation with a bear. I loaded 2 different types of 9mm ammo in my carbine that had never failed before individually, and for some reason having 2 different strength loads firing rapidly would consistently cause failures to fire on the 2nd or 3rd round because my recoil spring would react differently to each load. I never would have thought of that, and had I needed to rely on that alternating load with my life, I would probably be dead. Good to always test how different ammos can fire together if you're going to carry them out in the wild.
A big help and very educational. Thank you!
This was 2 years ago so im not sure if these rounds where out at the time but the SIG Elite Performance is a 9mm +p round with the flat tip, They are 90 grain and leave the muzzle at around 1379 fps. A box of 50 here in NC, bought 3 days ago (1/1/23) was $50.
I carry a 45 Colt revolving pistol with Lehigh Defense's Solid Copper 250 grain Xtreme Penetrator @ 1000 fps (standard pressure) 45 Colt round for bear protection. The pistol is all stainless steal which makes for low recoil. The 45 Colt is as big of a round I can control easily enough to get all shots off quickly. I wouldn't want less and can not rightly handle more, so it is just right for me as a defense/protection gun.
Revolvers have far less issues, such as they never fail to eject or fail to feed. No need to learn the TAP-RACK-SLAP routine. If a bear charges from 30 feet one has 3 seconds to respond, and TAPPING-RACKING-SLAPPING is a waste of precious time. For this reason revolvers rule. Revolvers fire rate is as fast as a semi-auto too, so one gets the best of both worlds.
Best way to hit a bear coming fast at you is get on one knee, so that your gun is at the same level as the bear's head. This way you do not have to try and lead the bear but rather just take aim and fire.
Moose, especially in Alaska, can kill you stone dead if they are rutting or defending their young.
My only experience comes from Montana. They get scary durring the rut. A friend of mine was treed by a charging moose that tried to knock down the tree.
@@GunTradition Moose down here are small compared to Alaskan moose.
I'm late to the party here...if you reload, Rim Rock bullets sells the same bullet that buffalo bore loads in 9mm and many other calibers. Only problem is they don't feed right in one of my 9mm's. They work fine in the others. I load it to 1070 fps out of a 4 inch
Howdy from Corpus Christi Texas. Outstanding video 👍 👍 thank you.
When I am carrying photographic equipment in the woods, instead of a rifle or shotgun, I routinely carry a handgun for protection from black bears, feral hogs, and wild dogs. My handgun of choice is a 6-inch 357 magnum Smith & Wesson loaded with 180 grain flat-nose hard-cast lead ammo.
When I feel the need for more fire power than my 6-shot 357 magnum revolver delivers, I have the option of carrying a 6-inch HK 45 semi-automatic loaded with twelve 255 grain flat-nose hard-cast lead ammo.
Until your video, I had never considered using my 5-inch 9mm handgun loaded with fifteen 147 grain +P hard-cast lead ammo. In the future, I may consider carrying it as my backup woods handgun but I would not feel safe carrying it as a primary.
Thanks for the video.
Not to start an argument, but statistically your better off with the 45 or 40. 357 hasn't been a reliable defense tool for bears. A majority of the people who have tried to use 357 for self defense, usually drop the bear on the last round, but end up seriously injured from the bear. 357 dosen't seem to be an instant lights out on bears the way it is with people.
@@andog6092
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. What do you think about the 10mm?
If I HAVE to use a 9mm for the woods, it's definitely gonna be an underwood extreme penetrator, 135 grain Hornady Critical DUTY (not defense), Federal hydrashok "DEEP", or Fort Scott TUI..now personally in the woods I like to carry a Ruger GP100 .357 mag loaded with the old school remington 158grain SJHP (if ya know ya know) in combination with a .357 Henry lever action.
I also have the Fort Scott TUI rounds. I have 2 boxes of those. We might be going to Gatlinburg, TN this summer. I know if we do some walking around I will for sure have my pistol on me with the TUI in it along with extra magazines just in case the need arises
Underwood makes a hard cast truncated 9mm for half the price of Buffalo Bore. Pretty much all Underwood ammo is half the price of Buffalo Bore. Federal also has a line of ammo called Solid Core. It's a hard cast 147 grain 9mm +P with their Syntech coating.
Phil Shoemaker got very "LUCKY" when he killed that Alaskan grizzly with a Buffalo Bore 9mm 147grain Outdoorsman...his last round hit the bears spinal cord but his first 7 rounds didn't even slow the bear down! His pistol was a S&W 3954 (8 round mag, 3.5 inch barrel). But it's still probably a good round for everything under 600 Lbs. in the lower 48. I'm going to revise this and say 400 pound max instead of 600.
He got lucky but tons of bears have been killed with 9,40, and 45 pistols. An argument can be made that a smaller caliber with the right ammo can be just as effective as 10mm, or 44.
There's more official reports out there of people killing brown bears in defense in 9mm 45acp 10mm and 44 magnum. Everything else is larger calibers where people have said they were lucky to kill the bear because of the firearms recoil. 9mm is a good modern bullet. They used to carry 45 colt in the western days and kill brown bears. Modern 9mm trump's those loads in speed and energy. I think anyone is lucky to kill a bear trying to kill them regardless of what they have
@@zachman9000100 I'm unaware of these reports point me to the website I want to read them. The history I read stated the two MOST FEARED terrors in the "old west" were fires because they couldn't control them and grizzly bears because they did NOT have enough firepower in their weapons to stop/kill them. It took full hunting parties with muzzle loader to kill a grizzly. The 45-70 was not produced until 1873 and MOST did not or could not get one (too expensive). The 45 Colt was not developed until 1872 and would not kill a grizzly. The 44-40 rifle (1873) was considered a toy against a grizzly. Now you're trying to tell me all the history I have read is wrong == please tell me where your getting your information. There's a video called the truth about 10mm and bears on here --- watch it and learn something 10mm and 44 magnums are high pressure rounds and can get it done with good shot placement. I'm taking it you did not bother to read the whole Phil Shoemaker story.
Your numbers are arbitrary and not scientifically backed!!! I saw the pictures of that bear and it was gonna die either way and fast!!! He had full penetration through vital organs.
@@Wildwestwrangler TOO BAD you're not smart enough to have read MR. Shoemakers story --- it was his last shot that stopped the bear ------ don't be so damned dumb read before you comment ---
9mm NATO ball ammo from a reliable manufacturer is the poor man’s Buffalo bore
I just picked up a Glock 19 Gen 5 which I plan on using for my woods carry. I bought a bunch of 124 grain round nose FMJ and a bunch of 115 grain round nose FMJ mostly for target shooting but I will definitely be looking for a flat nose 9 mm round for my woods carry now.
I carry a 40 S&W with a 5" barrel. Biggest animals here are mountain lions and smaller black bears. I don't think I've ever seen a black bear here breaking 325 lbs
357 sig is absolutely phenomenal for outdoors carry as well if you can find ammo. Absolutely blazing velocity great penetration and damage similar to 10mm in my opinion.
I think it's too bad that the 357 sig kinda fell off the map.
I have a G29 and G32. I almost always take my G32 for woods carry. I load it up with Underwood FMJ flatnose and Xtreme Penetrators.
Agreed....it'll take out anything in North America.....with good placement 👌 👍
I agree with you 💯 they just have to much faith in the 9mm I don't I'm not that crazy you have to be kidding me 😂
Great video. Very informative and no bs
I enjoyed watching your video,i;m not spending two bucks a shot for over pressured overpriced ammo in 9mm.Years ago i was hiking in the mountains alone and had a Black bear come right up on me and i was forced to stop the bear with my CZ-75 9mm with 115 grain hard ball ammo,the gun,the ammo and my shooting was spot on, everything happened fast and all my years of shooting and quick draw paid off at that moment. I do sometimes flatten the tips of hardball ammo with a file to make flat points out of them, but i have not tried them on any animals to report their performance not in Grizzly country so i still carry my nines.
That's fine research right there.
Very good information.
Glad it was helpful!
With the new XMD 10mm elite I’m going with that got a woods carry gun, it’s perfect. The size of a Glock 19 not the 20 and yet it’s the power of the 10mm. I need it as a man.
Can confirm. The 3.8 elite is amazing
Love mine
I slip a Taurus 605 (snub nose .357) in my back pocket when I go to the barn to feed the horses. I have been loading it for potential self defense against humans. But, last night there was a hog running around. So....now I'm thinking maybe it would be prudent to change my choice of loads.
Try 9mm +P+ in the extreme penetrator for bigger animals.
It’s hard to even catch the extreme penetrator in gel and water.
People underestimate the 9mm but it penetrate deep, with correct Ammo, and most people can shoot it much better than the bigger rounds.
There’s a lot of grizzly kills with a 9mm on the record, believe it or not.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
I carry a shield plus as a CO backcountry fishing side arm with Underwood 147 grain hard cast flat nose. Nice and light. HP rounds for city carry.
A 9mm has a very high success rate when it comes to killing wildlife animals out of self-defense.
A 9mm will get the job done on hogs. We tested the 124 hst +p a while back, and it expanded well, and made it to the off sized shoulder on a 150 pound hog.
I know the cool kids dont like .40 much anymore, but with longshot powder, im getting right at 1200 fps with a flat nose 180 gtain cast bullet from a glock 23, which is a 9mm size pistol. It will shoot clean through most hogs. I have chronographed 180 grain factory 10mm loads that didnt shoot that fast.
I like the Underwood extreme penetrator or defender, got the 90 grain and they go 1,450fps, ultimately I’d just bring my 10mm if I’m worried about large predators like you said. 👍🏻
To be honest, against a bear, 90g 1450fps is too light and too fast. It doesn't impact dense enough to actually penetrate and cause enough damage. Again, if bears are your concern. That 1450fps will come to a quick halt probably within 12 inches of hitting bear tissue. 90g is too light weight. I'd take your 10mm to be safe lol.
Yea outdoors you want a heavy round that light round will do fine for ppl defense
@@abc123def98 Here we are again, one of these comments. You have much catching up to do bud, get to it please because 9mm is now capable.
@@abc123def98I've never had a run in with any animal as of yet . I have done a lot of test with the defender. It really is barrier blind . Metal , glass , wood (doors) etc . Within reason . I'd think that if you are woods carrying . Its not a compact or pocket pistol. I have a 4.4 inch barrel. I'd trust it against a black bear mountain lion or Bob cat .
Most interesting video I’ve watched in a while. We have different views in some areas. I believe the heavier handgun calibers are best reserved for revolvers and that you can back off to a everyday carry configuration to something like the Ruger SP101. I use my Ruger GP100 for woods carry loaded with BB hunting rounds but out and about I carry my SP101 with the BB Heavy 38 Spl +P 158 grain “FBI” loads. I can’t get past the idea that those heavy 9mm or 10mm rounds intended for hunting are not a good choice for Polymer-framed pistols. The recoil profile alone puts a lot of stress on the frame and action, maybe enough to cause feeding or other reliability issues. I’m sure there are folks here that would say: works fine, I do it all the time. I’m not one of them. Again, great video.
My wife is super recoil sensitive so the 9mm Buffalo Bore is as hot as I can go. I'm researching pistols for her to rent and see what she likes as well as which firearms will reliably cycle that load. This issue is something that isn't really discussed. I need her to be able to defend herself on a hunt as well as help me out. Thanks for your video sir. It was helpful and informative.
I'd recommend the heaviest pistol you can find so it takes down recoil a bit. You might also consider something like an AR pistol. Ruger makes an AR pistol in 350 legend that shoots like a 9mm but hits like a .357 magnum. That might be a good choice for her too
@@GunTradition Yes sir, I agree with the heavy handgun. It needs to be something she can carry along with her on a hunt. It's a balancing act you know. Heavy pistol but not too heavy. Big pistol but not too big lol. Something to go in a chest rig so she can carry her hunting rifle as well. Thank you for the tips sir.
I carry 9mms with buffalo bore 147gr +p hard cast and seismic 185gr Rounds so what I hit will go down and stay down..
Rimrock bullets in Montana sells the outdoorsman bullet for reloading.
Carry 10mm,.41mag or .44 mag if you're in grizzly country. Larry Kelly tells of a grizzly coming into their cabin and he emptied his .44 magnum loaded with soft points and a guide in the cabin with him shot and killed it with a large caliber rifle. None of the handgun rounds had penetrated through the fat.
Any handgun is a poor excuse for a rifle.
No shit!
Aguila 147grn fmj flat point
I use a 10mm SA XDM Elite 3.8” 10mm when I’m up in Montana, even in Colorado too where I live.
So many people underestimate the 9mm. The 9mm is a good wood carry gun. Too many think you need a hand canyon for wildlife. People need to really do their research before committing. Too many cases on record with 9mm killing bears. Out of all those cases, no one got hurt or killed by the bear. Now they do have cases, with those hand canyons 44 mag and up, with people being hurt and killed missing their shot. I would take a 9mm any day over 44 mag. Lots of people will buy a 44, mag and only go to the range a few times, thinking they're ready for bear defense. That right there is why those people got, hurt or killed going up against a bear, with a 44 or higher in caliber, the lack of training.
Not mentioned is the .357 mag. High velocity and good penetration with hard cast bullets.
The 9 mm has taken deer with ease with single chest plenty of times. A 9 mm is not bad round. A 9 mm is not great for bear although. The 357 is fine for black bear or elk even or 10 mm as well. I debate the 357 or 10 is good for grizzly or moose although. I think for moose or grizzly bear I would go 44 magnum.
Are there .40 loads available that are about as hot as some 10mm's? Is that a good option for even larger animals? I ask because I do have a Glock 23, and it's hard to find Glock 20 G3's available, which is the only legal option for CA.
I mostly conceal carry pistols but in the woods I generally open carry a Ruger Redhawk .45 Colt with 325 gr hard cast @ 1400 fps.
The only issues I've ever had was a racoon that wondered by within 50' acting strange. It was making a hissing noise and snapping it's teeth but appeared to not be aware of my presence (rabid?) and a buck deer that came within 30' snorting, blowing, pawing and head tossing (The closest I've ever come to firing a round in self defense). The largest animals I've seen in the woods are 300 lb hogs and bear.
Considering I have spent a fair amount of time in the woods in the last 50 years I suspect the actual risks are very low, but better to be prepared and not need than need and not be prepared.
Living in Northern WI, and knowing Black Bear and Big Cats are in the area, My summertime carry is a 15 round full size 9mm with standard FMJ. I suspect multiple rounds into the front of a charging wild animal will change their mind fairly quickly.
Maybe for black bear but the size of a grizzly will make that 9mm feel like a 22 in your hand believe me they are beasts in person.
I recall a large Brown Bear that was killed with a 9mm 147gr hard cast +p but the guy had to shoot it 14 times. A .40s&w to me is the general purpose woods/carry pistol. Because while you can buy special hard cast loads for 9mm it's not cheaper than .40s&w 180gr fmj.
Great, except 40sw is basically dead
I woods carry a lot and I'm more worried about 2 legged than 4 legged anymore. 9mm will do more than it gets credit for.
I want to add this comment. This guy knows what he's talking about. I live and breathe country living every day. I've killed a lot of animals over the years with various different calibers and can tell you his results resonate with mine in Idaho.
My God!
If I have seen this video earlier, I might not bought round nose ammo.
But, I'm sure it's better than my punch.
just subscribed i like you, you tell the super truth and your conclusions are gold
Thanks, I appreciate it. I've got a lot of new videos in the works. Usually, there's a new one every Thursday.
I use 147 grain +p hard cast hunting ammo from underwood or the extreme penatrators
Federal came out with a 147 grain 9mm bear load now to!
I'll have to check it out!
Thank you very much!
How well does that Remington pistol work? Watching videos on it doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence
They're actually not bad. The first lot were recalled due to poor quality control. Remington re-released it after fixing the problems, but most people wouldn't trust it. I will say that it likes to be clean. It tends to have issues after 200 rounds. That's when mine likes to be cleaned up a bit.
Excellent insightful important discussion!
Spot on truthfully well said on avoiding using pointed nose Handgun bullets!
Rather use only Flat Nose Bullets .the Truncated Flat Nose 9mm rounds.
I am the inventor of a RFN speciality bullet series to stop, put down apex predatorial beasts like; Wild Boars and Bears, mainly for acheiving maximum capability out of antique style Black Powder cap&ball percussion revolvers.
With a stout powder loads and my harder cast lead Universal RFN Bullets, one can effectively defend themselves or hunt and harvest dangerous apex predatorial beasts and bring yourself safely home.
The "key" mittagating factors to put down a; Bear or Wild Boar, Felines and Herbivores ; Moose, Wapati ( Elk) etc. With a Handgun bullets is;
Usually if you can stop, kill a Wild Boar/ Hog with a 9mm you should be good to go for taking down a Bear.
However, Firstly, you must establish beyond a doupt with your 9mm pistol manufacturer, and or a competent Gunsmith; that you can safely fire these hotter 9mm+P hotter rounds in your said individual model type of 9mm pistol with those hotter + P rounds.
Secondly; is that the bullets be of made of a hard metal either Hand cast Lead or Solid Copper.
Thirdly; the bullet's should be of a;"Flat Nose" "Truncated" cylindrical design. Reasin being is that Flat Nose Bullets, are designed to have a strait trajectory path and penetraite deep into Skin, Fat and Bone teaching vital organs
Fourthly; the shell casing should be loaded with a substantial load of hot stout powder.
Fifthly; you; the Defender need to be knowledgeable of where the Vital Organs and Spinal Areas to aim for are on the said dangerous beasts.
Several reputable ammunition Companies make such speciality loaded ammunition.
Amongst such are; Underwood Ammunition offers their noted Hard Cast 147 grain Flat Nose Truncated + P rounds that are specially coated with Underwood's HI Tek sealing finish can safety be fired out of Glock gen 1 to 4 standard hexagonal barrels. These are currently on sale as the writing this comment.
As well as the, Bufallo Bore brand with their, 147 + P Outdoorsman and lastly, "Choice Ammunition's"; 148 + P version claimed to produce the most impact of, 515 Ft Lbs of Energy.
What a coincidence, I have recently been listening to true bear attack/mauling stories and watching gun videos and boom, this is like a perfect and between
I read once where someone said a 9 mm is for the hoods, and a 10mm is for the woods !
Your going to get attacked by the caliber snobs. 9 is sufficient for everything except griz, pissed off moose, large hog. In doubt get a 40. For the three mentioned get a 10.
I like my Glock 20. I carry 10mm 180 grain holow points, plink with the cheapest 10mm or 40 cal ammo, and have a box of 220 grain Buffalo Bore ammo for when I go up north.
I am with you there. I carry a glock 20 with a kkm precision barrel and 220 grain buffalo bore hard casts. I did also change out my recoil spring from the 17 pound factory spring to a 21 pound just to be certain it will cycle no matter what. Also threw some ameriglo spartan trooper combat sights on it. I know 44 has more power but I shoot the 10mm more accurate and when it comes down to it 16 rounds sounds a heck of a lot better than 6
Winchester makes a 9mm truncated cone loaded round. It’s the M1152 Active Duty going 1300 fps. Just FYI.
Which would you rather deal with?
Feral hog or grizzly bear?
Here in west ky we dont have any bears but there has been black panther sightings and for sure mountain lions. My 9mm woods carry is buffalo bore 124 grain +p+
But if im in the woods at night im packing my 6 inch gp 100 357 mag loaded with buffalo bore 158 grain jhp.
You don't want jhp for woods carry
@@nelsonr1467 i agree. I have some buffalo nore cast heavy outdoorsman in 9mm and 357. But you are right leave the HP ammo at home for meth heads hahaha
What do you think about 9mm PC Carbines rifles?
More people are hurt outdoors from trips/falls and atmospheric exposure than animal interactions. You’ll decide for yourself what you’re comfortable walking with.
My pack weight goes up significantly in brown habitat. Food canisters are an albatross around the neck, and I pack the stove and dishes inside to leave 1/2 mile from camp. A few days in the woods with my wife means I’m carrying 2 of the full size ones.
As for your question, PCCs are really cool, and a more hearing-healthy choice. OTOH, a 308 or 12ga can be had at the same weight.
@nickolasthefrog The capacity of the PC 9 is a game changer with the mag pul PC backpacker stock. Plus with onboard ammo storage and breaks down into two pieces plus a red ,or green dot installed.
@@malibujoe01 That all sounds great for vehicle stowage and makes for easy trips to the range. If you have average handgun skills, a long gun is a reasonable choice. Stowed in a bag is not at ready.
What I favor for woods is chest carry of a handgun with bear spray out front for ambi draw. Kit Bags are good but hotter than holsters. Either stays on when the pack comes off, basically 24/7. The reason for the spray is that my first hint of the animal encounter will be when it’s on top of me, and we’ll both suck OC together. The firearm is more of a 3rd party aid when considering animals that are faster and quieter than people.
@nickolasthefrog I don't know if you have a family ? You sound capable, but take an average person to the range with your handgun, and a Ruger PC 9 mm carbine at 25yds. Then compare both targets?
I already know which one will be better 😌
@@malibujoe01 Hiking with the Baby K’Tan moved the handgun to pocket. Couldn’t imagine adding a slung longarm to all that. Anyway, that was just southern forest (black bear and cougar habitat) where my dogs got to tag along.
A 9mm.? No, tho its better than nothing............. If there are real threats, carry a 12 Guage shotgun, loaded with slugs and 00 buck, carried on a sling and maintain situational awareness..When you hit the mountains always have a good companion with you.
.
Glock 40 Gen 4 10mm MOS is where it's at for OWB carry in the with 220 grain hardcast.
I use Underwood 147 grain hard cast
Buffalo bore 9mm should be acceptable for grizzly or moose if you don’t happen to own a 10mm.
600 ft/lbs and 4ft of penetration in a 9mm is crazy!
I mean, it'll punch a deep hole, but it's a barn small hole on a big animal. Moose can get ridiculously large. You could pop a lung with it and have very little effect on a large animal because the hole is so small.
I’ll still take a big bore non-magnum revolver. Capacity really isn’t an issue if something is actually charging you. Cast bullets in revolvers have wide, sharp meplats that open a much larger wound channel than the rounded edge truncated cones found in autoloader rounds.
Buffalo Bore uses Rim Rock bullets. They’re pretty good quality and not badly priced if you don’t cast your own.
Considering the 9mm and 10mm Glock cost about the same. Buy a 10mm Glock 20. Get some hard cast coated underwood ammo.. just my opinion. The Glock 20 is easy to control walking forward while engaging a target. Your able to keep it on target, so unload that clip don't be shy. I live in grizzly country. Mountain lions just walked my driveway yesterday. Occasionally they stalk me but I can see them in the wood line. I got plenty of time to get my gun!
Speaking of lungs. If you look at a chest x-ray, the lungs are black. That’s because there is very little de duty to the tissue. If you make it to the lungs, you can make it to the heart or aorta and hopefully take out some pulmonary arteries and pierce some bronchi and let a little blood in. An angry animal won’t stop immediately from that, but if you hit the aorta or even a subclavian artery, the animal likely will have very little time left.
You carry 9mm Buffalo bore 147gr +p hard cast rounds you have nothing to worry about..
Would HAVE TO carry something bigger/more powerful in bear country! Along with the 9mm.
Don't kid yourself. Until the threat is stopped, don't stop shooting. A wounded animal is incredibly dangerous. Shooting once or twice and waiting to see what happens can get you hurt or killed.
You can get hard cast bullets for 9mm from Montana bullet company
Some bears have been killed by 9mm rounds. True. Many many many many many more bears have been wounded or unaffected by 9mm rounds. Hunters skinning black bears do find 9mm rounds stuck in the fatty layer under the hair and skin, not having penetrated.
Just because you like the 9mm round, that doesn't mean it is good for bear. It isn't. But it's your life and your funeral.
The only 9mm round I'd consider is Buffalo Bore Heavy Outdoorsmen, and not in big bear country. That round will penetrate 2-3 times as far as a standard fmj. It's enough for your average black bear, but at the same time, I really prefer more than enough.
@@GunTradition My perspective comes from Grizzlies being my neighbors. I've seen them up close.. I've also seen 2 gargantuan black bears. .45 colt or .44 magnum for me. No way I would carry a 9mm.
In that kind of territory, I'm probably just carrying a semi-auto rifle.
What it truly comes down do is how well can you handle the weapon and round. A .500 S&W, .454 Casull, .44 mag or even .357 mag may be too much for most people fire effectively let alone get an efficient follow up. Where as a 9mm, some one may be more likely to be comfortable to carry and be proficient in handling of the weapon.
@@jtjackson365 True. If you can't handle the round, you won't hit the bear. But the round needs to be able to actually penetrate and do damage. The 9mm can't do that to a big bear with any reliability. And you won't have time for more than MAYBE 3 shots if a bear charges, so all that extra capacity won't help you. You won't make up for the lack of firepower with spray and pray under those circumstances.
I'll just carry a 357 sig way better than a 9mm facts I would not trust a 9mm to save my life from a bear that's just crazy you guys just have to much faith in the 9mm 💯
A lot of cases on record with bears being killed with a 9mm.
Sp101 with 180 grain hard cast .357 magnums in north idaho
9mm ok but make mine 5" barrel.
I’d rather carry a roifle, just to be sure.
speer makes truncated bullets. but they're not hot nor hard cast.
Glock 17 with + p + ammo.
Civil defense 9 mm 2000 ft per second. And it will penetrate level 3 body armor.
Glock G40 10mm edc where I live
I don't own a poistol but if I ever do I will use 9mm ammo.
Wife carries 9mm with Buffalo boar 147 + p hard cast and seismic 185gr
“Moose are dangerous CRITTERS” lmao 😆 that’s funny, you got me giggling on that one! 👍🏻🤣
I know more than 1 guy who was charged by a rutting moose. They get very aggressive. I know several Canadian and Alaskan guides who fear moose more than grizzly.
@@GunTradition I understand that, I’m talking about calling them a “critter”. To me that’s like small rodents, rabbits, coons. I stood by a full Bull moose at Yellowstone, yes they are gigantic and they have more deaths there from moose attacks than Grizzly. 😳
Yep. Canada geese and Canada meese are both very nasty critters (Yeah, I know. "Meese" is not the plural of "moose," but it SHOULD be.)
Moose kill more people in North America than grizzlies and black bears combined. If a moose stomps you it will turn your internal organs into mush. Do everything you can to stay on your feet if you get in an encounter with an aggressive moose.
@@wasidanatsali6374 😂🤣😂 your telling me a oversized dumb deer is more dangerous and kills more people then all bears?
Your actually hilarious
I've killed enough deer to know that you can't instantly incapacitate large animals with soft tissue damage alone no matter how powerful your weapon is. That's why, for defense against dangerous animals like bear and moose, I want a weapon that will give me the highest possible chance of hitting the brain or spinal column. That means I want high capacity, low recoil, a light DA trigger, a platform that facilitates regular training, while having adequate penetration. My Glock 9mm pistols check all of those boxes. A revolver only checks the last. With a typical 44 Magnum revolver you only get six chances to land a critical hit, dramatically higher recoil, a long and heavy DA trigger, and the weapon won't be trained with due to ammo prices, and because the weapon itself is very expensive so I might not have a spare, so I may not feel comfortable putting heavy wear and tear on it even if I could afford ammo for it. The 9mm pistol is the clear winner here.
9mm is fine for about everything. If I'm woods walking in apex predator territory I sling a mk18 with greentips. 30 rounds into just about everything will suffice, and even if u only hit with half, you'll be ok
Or I use Winchester Chester M1152 flatnos loaded at 1300' per 2nd like like someone else commented for woods if I'm not carrying my glock 40 mos
Should do.
357 sig 1350 + fps underwood 1600 fps 625 ft/lbs.