Even though I've been watching most of your videos, I'm really enjoying your new 'Dev Thoughts' series. I'm glad more professionals like you are sharing their insights and experiences in the industry. As a professional 3D Art/Tech Artist, your findings are right on and can't wait to see what your research with Fiver shows!
Thank you, for sharing your insights, this was an awesome discussion! I watched the full video and I'm very much looking forward to continuing this series. I would be super interested in seeing the technical side of how to collaborate with an independent contractor (or a dummy setup on how to do so). Maybe a fictional scenario where we picked an IC and discuss best practices of how to share files, how to share a project for collaboration, how to firewall it properly, migrate work back in, or other considerations you think are helpful. Maybe toward the end of the series if time permits and if it seems an interesting enough topic to cover. BTW - this format is great I can listen in while multitasking. Thanks again!
Simple Calculation. If someone charges around $170 per hours for their services and worked for around 100 hrs he can easily make around 17k. And you should also remember that creating a AAA character or models takes lots of time and optimisation. Also a very professional person can easily charge in between $100-300 in areas like c++ or programming, animation, ,modelling etc. But for that you need to have high level experiences and skills.
100%. I know our contract lawyer back in the day was $475 an hour. I learned to read a lot of legal docs to save as much time as possible on those bills.
I just recently started doing freelance 3D environment art for games. I currently charge self-funded indies $34/hr and funded / publisher backed projects $460 day rate. I plan on gradually increasing prices after building up a portfolio. My current cost of living is fairly low (rural Midwest US). For reference local jobs pay $14-$16/hr average.
Thanks for sharing all that as a point of reference for people to use. I think you will also find that your rates will increase depending on how busy you are as well.
@@livinfreestyle6727 the typical income of an indi dev, is around 0,02 $. This is what hee geet in complete. he need to do all, animating, deeveloping, programming and optimizing, storywriting and a lot more. find the error.
Thanks for a great video, I excercise this pov quite often as i found it particularly usefull when its time to discuss a raise and in general to get an idea of what opportunities are out there. Its good practice to keep track of that so one can avoid getting stuck in place. Loved the video and this format. Feels like talking with a collegue on the lunch break. Anyway as a person who lives outside US Id love to see some video on different levels off positions in the industry as the hierarchy seems to be quite hectic with all the roles principles, seniors, leads, directors, managers, generalist etc meaning different things in different companies.
That’s a great idea. Also I’ve got another video in the works very close to this “negotiating a raise”. We will see what you all think of that one when it’s ready.
If we're talking about a technical animator, it’s very difficult to estimate how much you can accomplish in a week. It’s important to consider: 1. The structure of your project. 2. The technical component, specifically the development part (engineers). 3. And most importantly, the assets. Taking all three factors into account, I was able to: Develop a cover system in one month. Implement locomotion for a character that flies in the second month. From my experience, I’d say every project is unique, and lately, when people ask me how long something will take, I estimate the task based solely on these three points. This is because there are companies that don’t fully understand the difference between an animator and a technical animator.
Technical animation is very misunderstood and often shrouded in "its complicated" Most cases I've seen, this time is billed as a daily, weekly, monthly rate etc and lots of producers don't really know what they do, but things just seem to work better when they are around type thing. I've seen the wrong specialization of TA hired many times. We just gotta help inform and educate is all.
If the consumer is the player, then I think there are lots of free to play games and quite a few companies that do focus on their player satisfaction. If by consumer you mean the developers that use the models in game, hopefully the game is good enough that players buy it and make up the costs?
I would check the various job postings and just run the same math. Figure out the average and times it takes you to make something and back into it from there. Thanks for watching!
I only ever worked in bid days or weekly, but it was sort of as I said. 4s per week for film and way faster for game. Only thing I"m unsure of is how movement sets are bid out, so if you're a gameplay animator out there, chime in and help us out!
At a full pro rate I would expect all the pro iterative process with feedback, updates etc. So, agreed. That said, if you can get super clear communication or are willing to accept something that isn't exactly what you had in mind but still satisfies the requirements you can also save $ that way.
Triple AAA quality model fully retopologized with 4 LODS, professionally UV unwrapped, fully textured and fully rigged with deform and control rigs. Yeah I can agree with that pricing, only caveat, I dont care where you live in the world. Just because you live in an expensive area, doesn't mean you can charge this amount for just the model. Unless its for a big movie production like Smaug and you need it done fast. If you can afford to spend this much on one model it would make more sense to hire 3D artists fulltime to make them. Because the online marketplace is so competitive, there are companies dedicated to creating AAA quality models for a quarter of this price.
Hiring the artist full time is actually even more, we haven't even thrown in bonuses, time off, benefits etc etc. That said, I don't disagree, in that, unless your portfolio showed your skills and you were doing work for the larger studios it would be hard to consistently warrant numbers at these levels. I have been pretty surprised by the numbers i hear larger studios paying though (or international billionaires, no joke, it happens) and have definitely thought: "Where was this when I was freelancing". Thanks for watching and commenting
@livinfreestyle6727 I just meant hiring an artist on instead of paying 17k for each model. And you also have to understand that people who have money (corpos, billionaires, studios, etc) will pay through the nose for fast high quality models.
I tried to buy some pixel art on Fiverr recently. Long story short I was handed some really crappy AI generated art for one. Secondly, EVERY SINGLE PIXEL ARTIST listed that they would do a character for 12-16 dollars. Just the quick single sprite. NOT A SINGLE ONE would actually do that and the cheapest one I got was 32 or 34 dollars in the end. I was wondering waht the quality of the art would be at the 10-16 range.Turns out its just lies. I guess they all have to lie to compete but theyre just competing for a fake number that no one really offers.
I have the Fiverr test videos coming up, but, in general it can be tough to know the quality of work until you establish a relationship. Thanks for watching and sharing your XP
It sounds like you have an idea of what "well made" means. I've found that a lot of people new to the space don't understand what goes into various aspects of the process. Thanks for watching and commenting!
You know, if someone is doing freelance, regardless of the industry, he should expect lower hourly wage than an office job, unless he has an amazing portfolio and experience. A freelancer has the freedom of taking up multiple gigs, without being restricted to an office and has to compete with a massive pool of freelancers. If your industry isn't saturated, then you are in the position to negotiate for higher rate. If not, the negotiation power really isn't in your court.. And your rate depends on your target clientele. If you charge $17,000, then most likely only large studios are able to afford your service, and you better have a portfolio that matches your price.. Because we all tend to scoff when we see something that is overvalued.
While I think 17k is crazy high, I did find that when I was freelancing as an animator I actually charged more per hour than at my day job. I was told this was reasonable because unlike the day job, I didn't have benefits, bonuses, paid time off etc. I made almost 50% more per hour freelancing for a good period of time (that was also 13 years ago and also varied quite a bit, that was primarily commercial work). To your point, you have to be top of your game for 17k type numbers, but I'd also say you'd have to be pretty top of your game to grab some of those full time jobs as well. I think the craziest paid freelancer I ever knew was an inferno artist, made 100's of k in a few months and would fly into shows the last 3 months to save the day type stuff.
I thought a bit more. actually when you think about it, that’s less than 9K a month. I knew quite a few freelancers who charged out at 2K a week. Doesn’t sound as crazy when you say it like that. It also doesn’t sound as crazy when you compare it to lawyer rates
@@livinfreestyle6727 Hmm, 50% more? Didn't expect that.. But nowadays I believe every industry is saturated, especially after the recent layoffs. I was actually looking up on the hourly rates for artists for my own indie game, and your $17K kind of shocked me. Haha, definitely not able to afford that kind of price. And it definitely makes sense for highly detailed models that require close-ups with the texturing & rigging.
I think you can easily find artists to help you out. I often found that a huge part of saving was finding talented artist working on their reels or just inspired by the project and know EXACTLY what I wanted from so it was much cheaper because fewer iterations. Also you can access the international market through the crazy internet. I’ll show you all some examples in an upcoming video.
@@livinfreestyle6727 9K per month is definitely not high, especially for people living in the US. I mean it really depends on your client, and the type of work you are taking up. I believe large companies also have their own people make estimates on the man-hours required for each contract, and base off their offer on that?
I from Indonesia, Southeast Asia, in animation industries senior level salary is $550 - $1300 a month (cost of living is $350) Yes, we can deliver great quality of model/rigging/animation/render Your number just too high for my brain
22:53 oww, i just realize and know the reasons why my employer asked me my desires, goals, and dreams. that why there are people work with their dream company with low salaries.
Oh yes, I was actually thinking about a separate video on this. BUT there are legit companies out there that can pay less simply because everyone wants to work there. Because this is often a career of passion, the employees are willing to work for less (relatively) simply cuz it's their dream gig. Whether that is a good or bad thing is a whole other question, but it seems they are often pretty fulfilled and happy.
You know if they know our hobbies/living, they know how much our salary expectations are. And also there are people work just for pursue their hobbies even though their jobs are not related if they like the jobs.
AI tools are getting better every day. Soon things will be able to be created faster and 99% cheaper. I've already seen interesting tools that turn an image into a 3D model. Of course the tools aren't perfect now but they will be soon. Any thoughts on this or are you going to ignore it for as long as possible? I'm looking forward to a future in which the limiting factor is your creativity.
Oh I am definitely not ignoring AI. I'm watching how it unfolds, testing out various tools on a regular basis to try to figure out how exponential this might end up being. AI is a whole other topic
@@livinfreestyle6727 might be interesting a video about it. Also about animation and AI , for example cascadeur is amazing . Even though it's not houdini or maya.
AI is and will be a tool for a long time to come. It will enhance a talented creator to do more or better. What won’t happen is that games won’t suddenly spend 10% of their budgets to make the same game. They will either go further, or do more. Barrier to entry is a big part of the success of top tier games. If everyone could make Call of Duty for $20M suddenly, then the threat to Microsoft/Activision would be too great. They will make it cost $200M and deliver more/better. AI is going to make good creators better, it will not replace them. Work on your craft, incorporate AI into your toolset, but don’t assume you’re going to suddenly catch up to someone who’s been honing their craft while you think of new things.
I didn't even get a chance to see/play concord, but at a full rate like that I would expect a character delivered on style with multiple iteration and feedback reviews along the way.
Hopefully AI will be good enough to handle all this soon. Seems much easier and better to get rough ideas. Then at the very end... hire someone to fix up the model and animation.
@@bonnymich Time is money, not having to deal with the artist in the beginning is the best way forward for most people. I think as AI takes the crap work out the equation. Games can finally reach a new level. I like that anyone in the future can prompt their behavior trees and have the blendspace access a mocap trained AI. I would think animators would be happy to get stuff prompted while setting up a whole character. The future of games coming from 16 year old prompters is going to wild.
Even though I've been watching most of your videos, I'm really enjoying your new 'Dev Thoughts' series. I'm glad more professionals like you are sharing their insights and experiences in the industry. As a professional 3D Art/Tech Artist, your findings are right on and can't wait to see what your research with Fiver shows!
Thank you, for sharing your insights, this was an awesome discussion! I watched the full video and I'm very much looking forward to continuing this series. I would be super interested in seeing the technical side of how to collaborate with an independent contractor (or a dummy setup on how to do so). Maybe a fictional scenario where we picked an IC and discuss best practices of how to share files, how to share a project for collaboration, how to firewall it properly, migrate work back in, or other considerations you think are helpful. Maybe toward the end of the series if time permits and if it seems an interesting enough topic to cover. BTW - this format is great I can listen in while multitasking. Thanks again!
I'm always looking for new topics, so I'll keep that in mind as I figure out other topics. As always, thanks for the watch and comment!
Simple Calculation. If someone charges around $170 per hours for their services and worked for around 100 hrs he can easily make around 17k. And you should also remember that creating a AAA character or models takes lots of time and optimisation. Also a very professional person can easily charge in between $100-300 in areas like c++ or programming, animation, ,modelling etc. But for that you need to have high level experiences and skills.
100%. I know our contract lawyer back in the day was $475 an hour. I learned to read a lot of legal docs to save as much time as possible on those bills.
I just recently started doing freelance 3D environment art for games. I currently charge self-funded indies $34/hr and funded / publisher backed projects $460 day rate.
I plan on gradually increasing prices after building up a portfolio.
My current cost of living is fairly low (rural Midwest US). For reference local jobs pay $14-$16/hr average.
Thanks for sharing all that as a point of reference for people to use. I think you will also find that your rates will increase depending on how busy you are as well.
@@livinfreestyle6727 the typical income of an indi dev, is around 0,02 $.
This is what hee geet in complete. he need to do all, animating, deeveloping, programming and optimizing, storywriting and a lot more. find the error.
Thanks for a great video, I excercise this pov quite often as i found it particularly usefull when its time to discuss a raise and in general to get an idea of what opportunities are out there. Its good practice to keep track of that so one can avoid getting stuck in place. Loved the video and this format. Feels like talking with a collegue on the lunch break. Anyway as a person who lives outside US Id love to see some video on different levels off positions in the industry as the hierarchy seems to be quite hectic with all the roles principles, seniors, leads, directors, managers, generalist etc meaning different things in different companies.
That’s a great idea. Also I’ve got another video in the works very close to this “negotiating a raise”. We will see what you all think of that one when it’s ready.
Thanks for watching and the comments.
If we're talking about a technical animator, it’s very difficult to estimate how much you can accomplish in a week.
It’s important to consider:
1. The structure of your project.
2. The technical component, specifically the development part (engineers).
3. And most importantly, the assets.
Taking all three factors into account, I was able to:
Develop a cover system in one month.
Implement locomotion for a character that flies in the second month.
From my experience, I’d say every project is unique, and lately, when people ask me how long something will take, I estimate the task based solely on these three points. This is because there are companies that don’t fully understand the difference between an animator and a technical animator.
Technical animation is very misunderstood and often shrouded in "its complicated" Most cases I've seen, this time is billed as a daily, weekly, monthly rate etc and lots of producers don't really know what they do, but things just seem to work better when they are around type thing. I've seen the wrong specialization of TA hired many times. We just gotta help inform and educate is all.
character creator 4 + daz + some blender skills = unlimmited characters for 1000 - 2000 usd
unlimited characters sounds nice, I do wonder in what style and if it would handle varied concepts as input.
i hear all these but the cost is insane and how the end product that reach the consumer is also something that the vast majority cant afford
If the consumer is the player, then I think there are lots of free to play games and quite a few companies that do focus on their player satisfaction. If by consumer you mean the developers that use the models in game, hopefully the game is good enough that players buy it and make up the costs?
Thanks for this it will really help a lot of artists! Do you also have ideas for props or environment artists even in lower position?
I would check the various job postings and just run the same math. Figure out the average and times it takes you to make something and back into it from there. Thanks for watching!
This is amazing! lol now do one for this is what a shot of 10s of animation costs per character. 😅
I only ever worked in bid days or weekly, but it was sort of as I said. 4s per week for film and way faster for game. Only thing I"m unsure of is how movement sets are bid out, so if you're a gameplay animator out there, chime in and help us out!
The odds of being able to get that model for say $9000 without a single revision cycle is near 0.
At a full pro rate I would expect all the pro iterative process with feedback, updates etc. So, agreed. That said, if you can get super clear communication or are willing to accept something that isn't exactly what you had in mind but still satisfies the requirements you can also save $ that way.
Triple AAA quality model fully retopologized with 4 LODS, professionally UV unwrapped, fully textured and fully rigged with deform and control rigs. Yeah I can agree with that pricing, only caveat, I dont care where you live in the world. Just because you live in an expensive area, doesn't mean you can charge this amount for just the model. Unless its for a big movie production like Smaug and you need it done fast. If you can afford to spend this much on one model it would make more sense to hire 3D artists fulltime to make them. Because the online marketplace is so competitive, there are companies dedicated to creating AAA quality models for a quarter of this price.
Hiring the artist full time is actually even more, we haven't even thrown in bonuses, time off, benefits etc etc. That said, I don't disagree, in that, unless your portfolio showed your skills and you were doing work for the larger studios it would be hard to consistently warrant numbers at these levels. I have been pretty surprised by the numbers i hear larger studios paying though (or international billionaires, no joke, it happens) and have definitely thought: "Where was this when I was freelancing". Thanks for watching and commenting
@livinfreestyle6727 I just meant hiring an artist on instead of paying 17k for each model. And you also have to understand that people who have money (corpos, billionaires, studios, etc) will pay through the nose for fast high quality models.
great resource, pricing is never easy
Yeah, it's definitely a tough thing to figure out!
I tried to buy some pixel art on Fiverr recently. Long story short I was handed some really crappy AI generated art for one.
Secondly, EVERY SINGLE PIXEL ARTIST listed that they would do a character for 12-16 dollars. Just the quick single sprite. NOT A SINGLE ONE would actually do that and the cheapest one I got was 32 or 34 dollars in the end. I was wondering waht the quality of the art would be at the 10-16 range.Turns out its just lies.
I guess they all have to lie to compete but theyre just competing for a fake number that no one really offers.
I have the Fiverr test videos coming up, but, in general it can be tough to know the quality of work until you establish a relationship. Thanks for watching and sharing your XP
Yes, so many character models are so insanely well made its just obvious to me.
It sounds like you have an idea of what "well made" means. I've found that a lot of people new to the space don't understand what goes into various aspects of the process. Thanks for watching and commenting!
You know, if someone is doing freelance, regardless of the industry, he should expect lower hourly wage than an office job, unless he has an amazing portfolio and experience. A freelancer has the freedom of taking up multiple gigs, without being restricted to an office and has to compete with a massive pool of freelancers. If your industry isn't saturated, then you are in the position to negotiate for higher rate. If not, the negotiation power really isn't in your court.. And your rate depends on your target clientele. If you charge $17,000, then most likely only large studios are able to afford your service, and you better have a portfolio that matches your price.. Because we all tend to scoff when we see something that is overvalued.
While I think 17k is crazy high, I did find that when I was freelancing as an animator I actually charged more per hour than at my day job. I was told this was reasonable because unlike the day job, I didn't have benefits, bonuses, paid time off etc. I made almost 50% more per hour freelancing for a good period of time (that was also 13 years ago and also varied quite a bit, that was primarily commercial work). To your point, you have to be top of your game for 17k type numbers, but I'd also say you'd have to be pretty top of your game to grab some of those full time jobs as well. I think the craziest paid freelancer I ever knew was an inferno artist, made 100's of k in a few months and would fly into shows the last 3 months to save the day type stuff.
I thought a bit more. actually when you think about it, that’s less than 9K a month. I knew quite a few freelancers who charged out at 2K a week. Doesn’t sound as crazy when you say it like that. It also doesn’t sound as crazy when you compare it to lawyer rates
@@livinfreestyle6727 Hmm, 50% more? Didn't expect that.. But nowadays I believe every industry is saturated, especially after the recent layoffs. I was actually looking up on the hourly rates for artists for my own indie game, and your $17K kind of shocked me. Haha, definitely not able to afford that kind of price. And it definitely makes sense for highly detailed models that require close-ups with the texturing & rigging.
I think you can easily find artists to help you out. I often found that a huge part of saving was finding talented artist working on their reels or just inspired by the project and know EXACTLY what I wanted from so it was much cheaper because fewer iterations. Also you can access the international market through the crazy internet. I’ll show you all some examples in an upcoming video.
@@livinfreestyle6727 9K per month is definitely not high, especially for people living in the US. I mean it really depends on your client, and the type of work you are taking up. I believe large companies also have their own people make estimates on the man-hours required for each contract, and base off their offer on that?
I from Indonesia, Southeast Asia, in animation industries senior level salary is $550 - $1300 a month (cost of living is $350)
Yes, we can deliver great quality of model/rigging/animation/render
Your number just too high for my brain
mantap bang, kerja di studio mana bang?
As you said though, cost of living relative. The average cost of living in LA is 10x ($3500) that value. Thanks for watching and dropping comments.
@@luluskuy sedang mengembara bang wkwk, lu kerja dimana bang
22:53 oww, i just realize and know the reasons why my employer asked me my desires, goals, and dreams. that why there are people work with their dream company with low salaries.
Oh yes, I was actually thinking about a separate video on this. BUT there are legit companies out there that can pay less simply because everyone wants to work there. Because this is often a career of passion, the employees are willing to work for less (relatively) simply cuz it's their dream gig. Whether that is a good or bad thing is a whole other question, but it seems they are often pretty fulfilled and happy.
@@livinfreestyle6727 You know if they know our hobbies and living they know how much our salary expectations are.
@@livinfreestyle6727 You know if they know our hobbies and living they know how much our salary expectations are.
You know if they know our hobbies/living, they know how much our salary expectations are. And also there are people work just for pursue their hobbies even though their jobs are not related if they like the jobs.
I'll make you a better one for 10k
I will remember this the next time we're making a dragon :) Thx for watching
@@livinfreestyle6727 Mecha-Dragon that turn into a plane!
Price has to be based relative to your competitors' skill level; then you can hit the top end with a proven track record.
Also cost of living in your region and all kinds of stuff goes into it
@@livinfreestyle6727 that determines if its viable, not that its priced correctly. unless you are in a position to pick and choose.
AI tools are getting better every day.
Soon things will be able to be created faster and 99% cheaper.
I've already seen interesting tools that turn an image into a 3D model.
Of course the tools aren't perfect now but they will be soon.
Any thoughts on this or are you going to ignore it for as long as possible?
I'm looking forward to a future in which the limiting factor is your creativity.
I think at the point when AI can replace Programmers, at that Point AI will replace everyone. So do what you love.
Oh I am definitely not ignoring AI. I'm watching how it unfolds, testing out various tools on a regular basis to try to figure out how exponential this might end up being. AI is a whole other topic
@@livinfreestyle6727 might be interesting a video about it.
Also about animation and AI , for example cascadeur is amazing .
Even though it's not houdini or maya.
I had a chance to use a demo of cascadeur some time ago, but the whole re-rigging you characters thing made it tough to continue testing with
AI is and will be a tool for a long time to come. It will enhance a talented creator to do more or better. What won’t happen is that games won’t suddenly spend 10% of their budgets to make the same game. They will either go further, or do more. Barrier to entry is a big part of the success of top tier games. If everyone could make Call of Duty for $20M suddenly, then the threat to Microsoft/Activision would be too great. They will make it cost $200M and deliver more/better. AI is going to make good creators better, it will not replace them. Work on your craft, incorporate AI into your toolset, but don’t assume you’re going to suddenly catch up to someone who’s been honing their craft while you think of new things.
yea you pay them 17k$ per character and they make you one of Concord's characters with flat color grading and flat levels
I didn't even get a chance to see/play concord, but at a full rate like that I would expect a character delivered on style with multiple iteration and feedback reviews along the way.
Hopefully AI will be good enough to handle all this soon. Seems much easier and better to get rough ideas. Then at the very end... hire someone to fix up the model and animation.
would still cost the same if not more
@@bonnymich Time is money, not having to deal with the artist in the beginning is the best way forward for most people. I think as AI takes the crap work out the equation. Games can finally reach a new level. I like that anyone in the future can prompt their behavior trees and have the blendspace access a mocap trained AI. I would think animators would be happy to get stuff prompted while setting up a whole character. The future of games coming from 16 year old prompters is going to wild.