The Omni is so cool! I would love to see a variable speed grinder (like the DF-64V) tested at different RPMs! That would answer some questions that the community has been throwing around about the realities of RPM changes vs theory.
Really appreciate your approach to this review on your efforts to bring something new to the table rather than just spewing out what everyone has already heard.
Have a DF64 because the 54 wasn’t out. I do like the idea of more burr options, but if the 54 is this similar to the 64 I can assure you you will NOT be disappointed. I love this grinder. Fantastic coffee and value
If they do multiple burr options, or some of the manufacturers turn to producing this might be the new home standard for great budget espresso across the board! Great video and informations as always!
I think the 54 is a great idea for people like me who don't care about burr options or grind speed. I just want a good shot of espresso to make myself an Americano or Cortado in the morning and after work. Well, as well as for my two daily lattes for my wife. It looks like I would like the workflow better than that of my ESP (though just slightly) and it seems, at least on video, to sound nicer and look better on the bench, lol. I do think it'll be my next grinder. Thank you for the video, as always it was enjoyable.
This was a really interesting and unique way to compare grinders. I'd love to see more comparisons like this from you. Maybe the DF83 vs DF64, variable speed grinders at different RPMs, slow feeding vs fast feeding, blind shaker vs x psds would all be interesting.
Thank you for the video. That DiFluid omni is now something that I never knew I needed to own, ha ha! For Burr Heads I guess the 64 makes sense, but you also seem happy with the grinds that the 54 makes for whole range of beverages. Stay Safe, Everyone
Thank you. I would love to see a comparison on that device with slow dosing coffee into grinder and regularly doing so. I find it has an amazing difference in outcome and taste.
This is exciting to me, thank you for sharing your explorations! In my journey, I've lived in conical land (Sette 270wi + Flair 58) and have a happy workflow. I've wanted to compare and contrast against flat burrs and have the flexibility to choose what cup I might want on any given day. Snagging an additional mid- to upper- tier grinder has felt cost prohibitive--though this can offer me a huge diversity for a price that feels much more comfy to my situation!
Great video. Just the one i was looking for. Its made my mind up to purchasing the DF54. Space is a big issue in our house so that's another reason. Thanks for the video 🙏🏻
Thanks for the video. You didn't try to make thing dramatic, which makes your video more helpful. I took the DF64 money and get a DF54 + Flair Neo Flex + some essential espresso tools, still with some left overs - THANKS!
Awesome data! Thanks for putting this together! Would love to now see stock 64 burrs compared to various SSP options, and maybe even pre/post alignment.
It’s nice to see some quantifiable evidence that more surface area doesn’t really make a difference in the results, besides grinder speed, at least with these same geometries. It would be really interesting to see the comparison between an all purpose burr, an espresso focused burr and a brew focused burr. Cheers!
Well done review and comparison. For me, the the increased speed is worth the extra cost of the of the DF64. The bur options are not a significant factor at this point, but in the future it might be nice to try something.
thx for your very neutral and objective analysis... in my opinion the burrs size of about 54 to 64 mm is perfect, especially for espresso... the major plus point for the 64 is: speed. but when I am "organizing" my breakfast in the morning, time doest really matter.
The particle size analyzer used in the video doesn’t appear to have detection limits low enough to provide meaningful data at low grind settings. Shouldn’t the particle size data be closer to a normal distribution? Otherwise a cool instrument in a small footprint. Thanks for the work put into the grinder comparison
Nice video. Good idea for a topic. But Inhave a Q. I have some light roasted dense Gesha beans from here in Madagascar. I have a simple Gaggia MD15 grinder which does NOt handle those beans at all for espresso on GCP. It is only good for medium or dark roasts. I just checked and the MD15 has 150 Watt motor. I noticed the 54 has a 150 watt motor. Does that mean the 54 would be equally bad at light roast grinding?
Nope, not true at all. Yes the power does play a role but also the what kind of motor is and most importantly how are the burs and their capability for producing espresso and the setup inside. This burrs are almost the same as DF64 V2 and it won't make a difference in the quality as it's shown on the video if you watched through the whole video. The MD15 is really low budget home appliance level of a grinder that is aimed for people that drink dark roasts or maybe medium and that is it. DF54 can go as fine as turkish coffee from lightly roasted beans without any problem.
Great video, I mean the DF54 at $229.00 what a great buying option for someone that has a Breville with built in grinder, I bought a Eureka Mignon Facile for $400 and use it with my BE Pro and what a difference in espresso taste :) I think the new BBE and BE pro I think come with Baratza burrs so I don't know if the Built in grinders does a better job ?
Hi Spro, how've you been, off camera and contemplating life and stuff? This video has me rethinking my planned purchase of the DF64v. I'm wanting the best pourover flavor emphasis I can afford. The low speed should help with fewer fines, but would be nearly 3x the price of a DF54, for a budget result in he cup. To level up noticeably do I to reach for the Zerno? Please help?
Were the particle analyzer results done at espresso setting? It seems unlikely there are particles larger than 1.7 mm at an espresso grind. Maybe I misinterpreted the experiment you ran, but I’m skeptical about those graphs. Is it possible it’s just measuring clumps?
Thanks for bringing scientific measurement into the analysis. Question: You said the DF54 was quieter. Is there a possibility that you could capture a decibel measurement while grinding? I recently really messed up my hearing, and even with earplugs, normal everyday sounds hurt, so I had to shelve my Mr. Coffee / Oster grinder which routinely hits the 80's which is unbearably painful for me, even with hearing protection. I have a manual grinder, but when company comes over, that gets really tiring. * subscribed *
Thank you for "just" having fun, sharing your thoughts, sharing your experiences, broadening and deepening the coffee conversations and inspiring experimentation! You're very well succeeding at it :)
I purchased an SK40 to pair with my DF64E. The DF64E is a great espresso grinder and the limited range is an advantage to give a more granular dialing in for espresso. But it will not grind for pour over, hence the SK40. The price to performance and matching look to the DF sold the SK. Then the DF54 was announced. The SK is a Conical and gives that option. Would the DF be "better" for pour over than the Conical SK?
I’d say, as with most things in coffee, better is a relative term. Conicals tend to produce a wider grind size distribution, resulting in more complexity and body, which if that’s something you want out of your filter the SL40 would be a better fit. The DF54 on the other hand will produce a more consistent grind size, which results in higher clarity and brightness. So in the end the question comes back to you. Which cup profile do you prefer?
Thank you for the video! How much quieter is the DF54, like a few decibels? It is perhaps a bit surprising since DF64 gen2 is reportedly noisier than DF83
I have more time than money so the 54 will do just fine! quality of grind was just proven & a smaller footprint is nice for us smaller kitchens. Great content bud.
Wow, that DiFluid device is incredible, definitely the star of this video. You can use it for every coffee grinder. I would love to see an analysis between both the Kafatek conical and flat burr grinders and, the new darling on the block, the Zerno grinder. My question about the DF grinders is, once you set your grind size, do the settings creep or travel? For instance, can you dial in a number setting for a French press and dial in a number for your espresso and have those settings be fixed? Or, which is more standard, once you change the dial settings then each time you have to recalibrate for another setting? It would be nice to find a grinder that can be used for both espresso and filter coffee without having to re-calibrate the grinder each time you make a change. Are there any grinders on the market where the settings are fixed and don't creep over time?
Like 3D printing or Zerno small batch mfg. we need an expansion of small burr designs based off this info. Would be interesting to see a line of Gorilla Gear, SSP 54mm burrs or like Varia with the various hypernova ultra, hypnernova and supernova burrs mfg releasing various burrs to heighten sweetness, clarity, smoothness etc.. This all fits in where people sometimes prefer C40 over K-series even though latter has bigger burr or hand grinders like these to 64mm flats depending on if it's bimodal or unimodal or their preference and roast day to day. Thank you for doing this.
i preordered the df54 to replace my d40+ back when it was announced. im really excited for it. the d40+ isnt bad per se imo, but i drink dark roast espresso and i feel less fines will bring out a better espresso for me
The biggest change I’ve found in my perception of shot quality is slow feeding beans into my DF64V. I would be very interested in the results of distribution with respect to feed rate. In my experience, it’s made about 2 grind settings difference and my perception is it has to be more uniform grinds keeping the beans from competing for grinder space.
I think the burr geometry has been overlooked in the video. If you look closer at the first set of burr cuts (closer to the center) on DF64, they are not parallel with the next set of cuts along the outer edge but rather intersecting them. Now, looking at DF54 burr the situation is quite different. The first set of cuts (near the center) is very close to being parallel with the outer set of cuts and they never get to intersect them at any point at all! This equates to a different grind result that clearly showed up during the comparison tests. Is it better? Is it worse? Well, the best bet is to simply taste the resulting coffee.
Would there be much of a difference of note for medium to lighter roasts for espresso and drip using the OEM burrs on both of these units? It sounds like slow feeding would negate any differences that might show up for lighter roasts. Also, how long would it take to grind 100g of medium to light roast for a large pot of drip? I’m not sure if this is a concern given that the bellows only hold 50g if the entire 100g can be slow fed.
How much deviation did you get with the particle size sample results from the Omni? Interested in getting one for our roastery both for roast colour and particle size when we are packing espresso grind or filter grind.
In the case of being a UA-camr essentially everything in my video is being promoted, but no this was a fun way to integrate a piece of gear I had yet to use instead of a standard review, covering all the topics already covered by many other creators.
@@gewurztramina its good for small time coffee shops like mine. If you serve 50 plus people a day, I think you need a much more advance and capable grinder.
Unrelated to the video(another great one BTW), I’ve been using a shaking technique for several months and I’m convinced that it is as good or better than WDT, at least with my setup. I single dose the beans and apply three squirts of water, then grind directly into the portafilter. As it’s grinding I shake the portafilter back and forth rapidly to create an even distribution and break any clumps. After grinding and I have a level bed of coffee. Two or three taps on the counter, a leveler and tamp is all the prep it needs.
Interesting you mention this because my experience is different: whenever i shake or tap on the counter (doesn't matter if it is in a grind cup or in the portafilter), what happens is that the force of shaking doesn't break things up, it totally compresses them in very large clumps which then don't give you a uniform distribution. I have to fluff it up with the needles and then i can get it to be distributed evenly.
Would get 54 over fellow opus for sure or any other 54 grinder for that matter. Might be nice to have bigger motor for lighter roasts but maybe if your slow feeding that wouldnt matter. Wondering if or there will be grinder 500$ or less with auger?
Probably semi-useless information: 1) Interesting size comparisons might involve calculating the actual areas of the cutting surfaces of both grinders and calculating a % difference. This is easily derived; it's the area of the circle of the outer diameter of the burr MINUS the area of the hole in the middle. For each burr. A = pi*(r^2). AKA (pi x r squared). Once you have the area of the grind surface of each burr, you can calculate the increased surface area of the large burr, also in terms of %. 2) A more interesting observation is that both grinders operate at 1400rpm. The linear velocity of the cutting surfaces increases with increasing distance from the center. Easy to see that the velocity of the cutting surfaces of the larger burr are moving significantly faster than those of the smaller grinder. This would contribute to faster grinding times, along with increased surface area of the blades of the larger burr set. Love that particle-size analyzer and your making great use of it!
as a newbie on the field, trying always to find the best option is not the easiest, with so many option. After all research, at least for espresso i'm convinced either way is good, and then find a good pour over grinder to pair
I'm a DF64 owner so I can't say much on the 54mm but the results were closer than I anticipated. May use that particle analyzer to compare aligning burrs vs not? There's some die-hards that figure it's life and death!
Looking for a new grinder with single dosing in mind, trying to decide between the DF54 and the Varia VS3, does anyone have experience with both? Speed is a non issue, just looking for a quality grinder and good results in the cup, mainly for espresso, sometimes for filter as well. Thanks :)
I think the price of the 54 means that there’s no longer a choice whether you should pick hopper vs single dose grinding. I’d pick a 54 up just for single dosing different coffees, decaf etc. and use the hopper grinder for the daily use.
How do you manage switching to different coffees like that? Seems like you'd have to dial in every time so you end up wasting a lot of coffee on every switch
@@jimmythefish I've been in the espresso game for 2 years now and I single dose every time but I don't switch coffees until my current bag runs out! Still takes so long for me to dial in a coffee (and many just never work out or only taste great on the last 2 shots of the bag). I feel like I really need to switch to a lever machine
Where I'm from, the 54 is literally half the price of the 64 Gen 2, because it comes with DLC burrs by default. While I know the 64 is more versatile, powerful and consistent, but I just can't justify spending $1000AUD when the 54 is coming in at $449..
Trying to figure out how a Breville portafilter would work best with the DF54? Grind straight to portafilter with a dosing funnel? Or get a 53mm dosing cup that fits that angled rubberized holder?
It's interesting to see the difference being non-existent with the stock burrs. That said, I think the real reason anyone gets the DF64 is to put SSP burrs in so I would be more interested to see this test being done with SSP. I think that is also the major advantage of 64mm is that there are more burr options. The customizability at that size is unmatched and worth the extra value in and of itself.
I'm team 98mm(MK cast post 2015) and 83mm(SSP MP). I am not team Italmill burrs. Even my titanium coated Ceado 83mm classic geometry burrs are barely an upgrade. I think most people have moved on from drinking classic darker roasts exclusively which is where Italmill burrs shine. In my experience, burr size does matter, just not as much as burr geometry and grinder feed rates.
Completely wrong. First of all, 64mm and 54mm are the diameter, not the radius of the burrs. Secondly, the surface area of the burrs is not an entire circle, but rather the area of the outer circle minus the area of the inner (empty) circle. so, in reality the surface area can not be determined without also knowing the inner diameter
@@DemocraticDangler You’re right about the inner circle, tx! I don’t think however that using the radius or diameter matters when calculating the ratio.
Experimentation using the scientific method is science by anyone, including you or I. Nice, now I am confused on which one to get that would replace my Eureka 54mm that is the older model with doser. I dont like the doser, and I dont like the tiny knob, and I think these DF models MIGHT? be better?
I would like to add that I do not understand why you referred to the main difference as being “10mm of surface area”. I think the 10mm refer to the diameter difference. Surface area should be way more, around 1/3 more in the 64mm burr. Either than that, 54 looks and is great.
Someone already brought this up. I made a mistake, BUT this mistake in speaking about the diameter instead of surface area doesn’t negate the results found. So maybe stop focusing on the aesthetics and look at the overall picture.
@Sprometheus The tone of your comment really is off-putting. It's totally OK to miss speak but when someone asks about it and your response is to deflect it does not look good. Comparing bottom of the barrel Italmill burrs in questionable quality Chinese grinders only shows that those 2 grinders on that day at that grind setting with that coffee offer similar results. More surface area = bigger blank canvas to add different geometry and objectively add potential for improved taste. I found this to be as unhelpful as when you put out a video saying you notice no great benefit to burr seasoning but you were using dark roast and conical burrs.
@@Sprometheus was replying to your highly mature comment with a detailed answer. Just going to say instead that it is good to know what’s your attitude outside of edited video.
I don’t think it will be 1/3 more in 64mm burr. Interesting fact: when two burrs have the same width, then 64mm will have only 10mm^2 more area than 54mm burr.
@@jasonsun7527it should be around 1/3 but the point is that whether it is 1/3 or 1/5, the result are faulted. So what Spro “kindly” communicated around seeing the bigger picture only points in the direction that he does not clearly understand that what he thinks he proved is faulted by design. But again, he was so kind in the reply that I did not want to lose time explaining. He might eventually find out.
The budget conscience me says the df54. An extra 15 seconds to grind my dose isn't going to make or break me. Wider burr selection doesn't phase me either. In all the reviews I have seen the df54 send to have better retention too. It also doesn't help that the DF64 is double the price of the DF54 in Australia $429vs $849.
I have the DF64 gen2 it is a really nice grinder , I am getting absolutely no residual from this grinder it is clean and really easy to dial in ,I am so glad I bought it ,
The DF-54 grinder is really terrible. It needs to be cleaned very frequently because particles block the chute, causing the beans to be over-ground. As a result, consistency is nonexistent, and the grind setting constantly needs to be adjusted. I wish you had mentioned that :P
As a Eureka Specialita owner, I can’t help but notice how much cheaper the DFs are. Are these machines as good or better than the Specialita? Should I switch?
Thanks for the pointer to third wave water. My city water runs from 350 to 650 TDS, and it is so full of minerals it is illegal to discharge from the waste stream, so water treatment plants must dilute our sewage with expensive lake water piped in from miles away. That lake water would be great for drinking, but it is reserved for one use because of the expense. It doesn't help that there are MUD's in the city that charge $300-$400 for water I pay $150 for, and people living in the desert in New Mexico pay $25 for. Thanks, Texas! But I digress.. My 650TDS water must be ro filtered if you want to use it for cooking or drinking. But RO ius supposed to be bad for coffee, according to the god himself James Hoffman... So I would do things like mix in some tap water sometimes, but without a proper chemistry formula, how the heck do I know what I'm even doing? What is my reference point for comparison? James had no answers. I have add-on filters to add minerals back in, but they start heavy then slow down, and I still don't have a chemistry formula, and with all the brands of mineralization filters, how do I know where to even start? So this third wave product can at lease offer a repeatable chemistry formula, so now I can have a starting point in my water development problem. One of the nice parts about using ro water as a base is it will be almost identical no matter where it is used, if you use good quality filter media. So with "empty" ro water, and a known source of chemistry, dialing in water itself is now easier without endless taste tests and uncertain chemistry. And it was just a paid ad, so kudos for earning your money while being helpful... Third Wave adds $3 to $4 to the cost of each bag of coffee, so it isn't too expensive. The water in New Mexico is drinkable from the tap, so that will be what I compare to once I move, so it is possible I'll stop using ro for coffee, but I haven't had time to really test that. I got my new df54 today, and I'm really happy with it so far, moving over from a Breville BCG820BSS, so BIG step up. I'm team54, but only because I plan to retire soon and 40% of my retirement money I have not earned yet, so choosing the 54 is choosing to retire a few hours earlier. (after doing the math, I'm underwelmed by the savings in terms of retirement, but it is actually a good problem to have I guess). God-James was not overly impressed by the 64, so he won't lileky like the 54 either, but I'm a mere mortal, so I'm sure I will love it just fine. I tune to a grind on the finer side of things, so I wasn't happy with the breville, but it was good enough to save my arm from my Lido E-T. The Lido E-T was really good, and made great coffee with my flair classic press, and I think the df54 might be slightly better, but my flair is in new mexico so no side by sides yet. I'm using the DF54 on a setting of 10, and I was extremely happy with how easy the dial-in process was. The unit is very quiet, and I don't feel like I need to go finer, leaving room for adjustment... My breville was never quite fine enough, I had to tune by increasing dose, and I never had perfection. You CAN tune the breville by opening it up and moving the burs closer together, but it isn't enough to fix it. So I come to the df54 with expectations of an improvement, and I was not disappointed. As for workflow, I tried some shots with no wdt, and I still got some channeling, and some wdt was needed. However the amount of wdt needed was minimum. The dosing cup did not fit my portafilter, but it did fit my portafilter dosing funnel, so that was great.
I stand corrected. But I think from most folks perspective, 54 and 64 calling it 10mm which in this case is diameter, is easier to wrap your head around.
@@SprometheusI would then say you should use 10mm diameter as its a more accurate way to express what you mean. Surface area is complicated to actually measure in burs but it grown exponentially as you go up in size
Quite funny how people feel compelled to delve into the "Actual burr surface" discussion rather than simply enjoying the bottom line of this video: results are comparable and (most importantly) taste in the cup indistinguishable. If you can bare to wait 10 seconds more for your grounds (at a lower volume and pitch of the 64) then you might as well go for a 54. In my eyes considering the price difference it's a bit of a no brainer for me. Thanks for the video, can't wait for my DF54 order to arrive!
@@dejedejsson To be fair I kind of expected that - we use a Nutribullet twice a day and I doubt the DF64 would be worse than that, and you only need to use it for 10 seconds at a time..!
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Love the quantitative and qualitative analysis
The Omni is so cool!
I would love to see a variable speed grinder (like the DF-64V) tested at different RPMs! That would answer some questions that the community has been throwing around about the realities of RPM changes vs theory.
Really appreciate your approach to this review on your efforts to bring something new to the table rather than just spewing out what everyone has already heard.
Have a DF64 because the 54 wasn’t out. I do like the idea of more burr options, but if the 54 is this similar to the 64 I can assure you you will NOT be disappointed. I love this grinder. Fantastic coffee and value
If they do multiple burr options, or some of the manufacturers turn to producing this might be the new home standard for great budget espresso across the board! Great video and informations as always!
Come on... Want to save 150$ on machine but spend 200$+ on optional burrs? That's noch Budget focus
I think the 54 is a great idea for people like me who don't care about burr options or grind speed. I just want a good shot of espresso to make myself an Americano or Cortado in the morning and after work. Well, as well as for my two daily lattes for my wife. It looks like I would like the workflow better than that of my ESP (though just slightly) and it seems, at least on video, to sound nicer and look better on the bench, lol. I do think it'll be my next grinder.
Thank you for the video, as always it was enjoyable.
same
Love the particle analyzer. Makes it much more scientific! Thanks very much.
This was a really interesting and unique way to compare grinders. I'd love to see more comparisons like this from you. Maybe the DF83 vs DF64, variable speed grinders at different RPMs, slow feeding vs fast feeding, blind shaker vs x psds would all be interesting.
I'd like to see particle size distribution for slow feeding vs dump feeding on df64.
Thank you for the video. That DiFluid omni is now something that I never knew I needed to own, ha ha! For Burr Heads I guess the 64 makes sense, but you also seem happy with the grinds that the 54 makes for whole range of beverages. Stay Safe, Everyone
Thank you. I would love to see a comparison on that device with slow dosing coffee into grinder and regularly doing so. I find it has an amazing difference in outcome and taste.
This is exciting to me, thank you for sharing your explorations! In my journey, I've lived in conical land (Sette 270wi + Flair 58) and have a happy workflow. I've wanted to compare and contrast against flat burrs and have the flexibility to choose what cup I might want on any given day. Snagging an additional mid- to upper- tier grinder has felt cost prohibitive--though this can offer me a huge diversity for a price that feels much more comfy to my situation!
Great video. Just the one i was looking for. Its made my mind up to purchasing the DF54. Space is a big issue in our house so that's another reason. Thanks for the video 🙏🏻
Thanks for the video. You didn't try to make thing dramatic, which makes your video more helpful. I took the DF64 money and get a DF54 + Flair Neo Flex + some essential espresso tools, still with some left overs - THANKS!
Terrific work, I really appreciate the analysis and conclusions.
Awesome data! Thanks for putting this together! Would love to now see stock 64 burrs compared to various SSP options, and maybe even pre/post alignment.
Love the tech you brought in for this video. Subscribed!
It’s nice to see some quantifiable evidence that more surface area doesn’t really make a difference in the results, besides grinder speed, at least with these same geometries.
It would be really interesting to see the comparison between an all purpose burr, an espresso focused burr and a brew focused burr. Cheers!
One of the best and informative video on the market so far... Thank you so much...
Thank you, This is the best explanation I have seen comparing the two grinders.
Well done review and comparison. For me, the the increased speed is worth the extra cost of the of the DF64. The bur options are not a significant factor at this point, but in the future it might be nice to try something.
Is the DF 54 good for filter coffee or only espresso? Looking for a reasonably priced electric single dose grinder…
thx for your very neutral and objective analysis... in my opinion the burrs size of about 54 to 64 mm is perfect, especially for espresso... the major plus point for the 64 is: speed. but when I am "organizing" my breakfast in the morning, time doest really matter.
Thank you my friend.
The particle size analyzer used in the video doesn’t appear to have detection limits low enough to provide meaningful data at low grind settings. Shouldn’t the particle size data be closer to a normal distribution? Otherwise a cool instrument in a small footprint. Thanks for the work put into the grinder comparison
Nice video. Good idea for a topic. But Inhave a Q. I have some light roasted dense Gesha beans from here in Madagascar. I have a simple Gaggia MD15 grinder which does NOt handle those beans at all for espresso on GCP. It is only good for medium or dark roasts. I just checked and the MD15 has 150 Watt motor. I noticed the 54 has a 150 watt motor. Does that mean the 54 would be equally bad at light roast grinding?
Nope, not true at all. Yes the power does play a role but also the what kind of motor is and most importantly how are the burs and their capability for producing espresso and the setup inside. This burrs are almost the same as DF64 V2 and it won't make a difference in the quality as it's shown on the video if you watched through the whole video. The MD15 is really low budget home appliance level of a grinder that is aimed for people that drink dark roasts or maybe medium and that is it. DF54 can go as fine as turkish coffee from lightly roasted beans without any problem.
How does the particle analyzer convert the small sample size to the well distributed particle spread for the analyzer to read? A puff of air or???.
Great video, I mean the DF54 at $229.00 what a great buying option for someone that has a Breville with built in grinder, I bought a Eureka Mignon Facile for $400 and use it with my BE Pro and what a difference in espresso taste :) I think the new BBE and BE pro I think come with Baratza burrs so I don't know if the Built in grinders does a better job ?
Hi Spro, how've you been, off camera and contemplating life and stuff?
This video has me rethinking my planned purchase of the DF64v. I'm wanting the best pourover flavor emphasis I can afford. The low speed should help with fewer fines, but would be nearly 3x the price of a DF54, for a budget result in he cup.
To level up noticeably do I to reach for the Zerno? Please help?
Were the particle analyzer results done at espresso setting? It seems unlikely there are particles larger than 1.7 mm at an espresso grind. Maybe I misinterpreted the experiment you ran, but I’m skeptical about those graphs. Is it possible it’s just measuring clumps?
Thanks for bringing scientific measurement into the analysis. Question: You said the DF54 was quieter. Is there a possibility that you could capture a decibel measurement while grinding? I recently really messed up my hearing, and even with earplugs, normal everyday sounds hurt, so I had to shelve my Mr. Coffee / Oster grinder which routinely hits the 80's which is unbearably painful for me, even with hearing protection. I have a manual grinder, but when company comes over, that gets really tiring. * subscribed *
Thank you for "just" having fun, sharing your thoughts, sharing your experiences, broadening and deepening the coffee conversations and inspiring experimentation! You're very well succeeding at it :)
I purchased an SK40 to pair with my DF64E. The DF64E is a great espresso grinder and the limited range is an advantage to give a more granular dialing in for espresso. But it will not grind for pour over, hence the SK40. The price to performance and matching look to the DF sold the SK. Then the DF54 was announced. The SK is a Conical and gives that option. Would the DF be "better" for pour over than the Conical SK?
I’d say, as with most things in coffee, better is a relative term. Conicals tend to produce a wider grind size distribution, resulting in more complexity and body, which if that’s something you want out of your filter the SL40 would be a better fit. The DF54 on the other hand will produce a more consistent grind size, which results in higher clarity and brightness. So in the end the question comes back to you. Which cup profile do you prefer?
@@Sprometheus It looks like I made the right purchase for my taste.
Thank you for the video! How much quieter is the DF54, like a few decibels? It is perhaps a bit surprising since DF64 gen2 is reportedly noisier than DF83
I really appreciate your work in this video!
I have more time than money so the 54 will do just fine! quality of grind was just proven & a smaller footprint is nice for us smaller kitchens. Great content bud.
what's the sound profile difference like on these?
I'm considering a 54, but I really appreciate the low noise from my 40+
Completely qualitative but I have the DF54 and it's very quiet and a pleasant low tone
@@wolfganghammatt5406 I've had the DF54 for about a month now. I agree, the sound isn't too loud and it's not too high pitched either.
@@wongobongo how’s the clarity?
@@loganmontgomery1955 over the 40 it's noticeably better.
I wonder how the motor of the 54 would do with other burrs (if they became available) given the lower power. Are the RPMs the same on each?
Well, you’ve convinced me. Ordered a DF54 to upgrade my SD40.
Wow, that DiFluid device is incredible, definitely the star of this video. You can use it for every coffee grinder. I would love to see an analysis between both the Kafatek conical and flat burr grinders and, the new darling on the block, the Zerno grinder. My question about the DF grinders is, once you set your grind size, do the settings creep or travel? For instance, can you dial in a number setting for a French press and dial in a number for your espresso and have those settings be fixed? Or, which is more standard, once you change the dial settings then each time you have to recalibrate for another setting? It would be nice to find a grinder that can be used for both espresso and filter coffee without having to re-calibrate the grinder each time you make a change. Are there any grinders on the market where the settings are fixed and don't creep over time?
this is a very, very good video. great job
Like 3D printing or Zerno small batch mfg. we need an expansion of small burr designs based off this info. Would be interesting to see a line of Gorilla Gear, SSP 54mm burrs or like Varia with the various hypernova ultra, hypnernova and supernova burrs mfg releasing various burrs to heighten sweetness, clarity, smoothness etc.. This all fits in where people sometimes prefer C40 over K-series even though latter has bigger burr or hand grinders like these to 64mm flats depending on if it's bimodal or unimodal or their preference and roast day to day. Thank you for doing this.
i preordered the df54 to replace my d40+ back when it was announced. im really excited for it. the d40+ isnt bad per se imo, but i drink dark roast espresso and i feel less fines will bring out a better espresso for me
would love to see the same tests on the df83 ❤
Good video, thanks.
Would have been nice to see the DF83 there as well
The biggest change I’ve found in my perception of shot quality is slow feeding beans into my DF64V. I would be very interested in the results of distribution with respect to feed rate. In my experience, it’s made about 2 grind settings difference and my perception is it has to be more uniform grinds keeping the beans from competing for grinder space.
I think the burr geometry has been overlooked in the video. If you look closer at the first set of burr cuts (closer to the center) on DF64, they are not parallel with the next set of cuts along the outer edge but rather intersecting them. Now, looking at DF54 burr the situation is quite different. The first set of cuts (near the center) is very close to being parallel with the outer set of cuts and they never get to intersect them at any point at all! This equates to a different grind result that clearly showed up during the comparison tests. Is it better? Is it worse? Well, the best bet is to simply taste the resulting coffee.
He said there was no difference in cup quality
Would there be much of a difference of note for medium to lighter roasts for espresso and drip using the OEM burrs on both of these units? It sounds like slow feeding would negate any differences that might show up for lighter roasts. Also, how long would it take to grind 100g of medium to light roast for a large pot of drip? I’m not sure if this is a concern given that the bellows only hold 50g if the entire 100g can be slow fed.
Does anyone know if the Eureka Specialita filtro burrs fit the DF54? Specs say Specialita uses 54mm burrs even though they say 55mm.
How much deviation did you get with the particle size sample results from the Omni? Interested in getting one for our roastery both for roast colour and particle size when we are packing espresso grind or filter grind.
Hi apa ada clump pada DF 54/64 untuk gilingan espresso??
can you pls review the good conical burr grinder around 1500$ or less?
Yeah, the Niche Zero. It’s like a 3rd of that price and is still hard to beat on the conical market with its stock set of Mazzer burrs
@@SprometheusI bought it a year ago or more and I sold it because it stopped multiple time when I grind light roasts
That DiFluid omni. Now that’s a bit of kit that I absolutely do not need but totally want! 😂
Me too!
It’s definitely one of those things that no one really needs at home, but it’s pretty fun to have.
In the case of being a UA-camr essentially everything in my video is being promoted, but no this was a fun way to integrate a piece of gear I had yet to use instead of a standard review, covering all the topics already covered by many other creators.
I’ll take the most bang for the buck, team 54. The DiFluid Omni was the show stopper for me, superbly done ✅
I need the speed of the 64 specially when customers peak. A very nice comparison video. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Is DF64 fit for commercial use? I thought it was only for home use
@@gewurztramina its good for small time coffee shops like mine. If you serve 50 plus people a day, I think you need a much more advance and capable grinder.
Unrelated to the video(another great one BTW), I’ve been using a shaking technique for several months and I’m convinced that it is as good or better than WDT, at least with my setup. I single dose the beans and apply three squirts of water, then grind directly into the portafilter. As it’s grinding I shake the portafilter back and forth rapidly to create an even distribution and break any clumps. After grinding and I have a level bed of coffee. Two or three taps on the counter, a leveler and tamp is all the prep it needs.
Interesting you mention this because my experience is different: whenever i shake or tap on the counter (doesn't matter if it is in a grind cup or in the portafilter), what happens is that the force of shaking doesn't break things up, it totally compresses them in very large clumps which then don't give you a uniform distribution. I have to fluff it up with the needles and then i can get it to be distributed evenly.
Would get 54 over fellow opus for sure or any other 54 grinder for that matter. Might be nice to have bigger motor for lighter roasts but maybe if your slow feeding that wouldnt matter. Wondering if or there will be grinder 500$ or less with auger?
Sub 500 was the Sculptor on Kickstarter.
The DiFluid filter distributions look odd, very large stddev for the DF64 and a stddev larger than the median grind size for the DF54?
What's the height of both units? On the website they mentioned that they are both the same height (12")
Probably semi-useless information:
1) Interesting size comparisons might involve calculating the actual areas of the cutting surfaces of both grinders and calculating a % difference. This is easily derived; it's the area of the circle of the outer diameter of the burr MINUS the area of the hole in the middle. For each burr. A = pi*(r^2). AKA (pi x r squared). Once you have the area of the grind surface of each burr, you can calculate the increased surface area of the large burr, also in terms of %.
2) A more interesting observation is that both grinders operate at 1400rpm. The linear velocity of the cutting surfaces increases with increasing distance from the center. Easy to see that the velocity of the cutting surfaces of the larger burr are moving significantly faster than those of the smaller grinder. This would contribute to faster grinding times, along with increased surface area of the blades of the larger burr set.
Love that particle-size analyzer and your making great use of it!
as a newbie on the field, trying always to find the best option is not the easiest, with so many option. After all research, at least for espresso i'm convinced either way is good, and then find a good pour over grinder to pair
I'm a DF64 owner so I can't say much on the 54mm but the results were closer than I anticipated. May use that particle analyzer to compare aligning burrs vs not? There's some die-hards that figure it's life and death!
Bravo, amigo!
Looking for a new grinder with single dosing in mind, trying to decide between the DF54 and the Varia VS3, does anyone have experience with both? Speed is a non issue, just looking for a quality grinder and good results in the cup, mainly for espresso, sometimes for filter as well. Thanks :)
I think the price of the 54 means that there’s no longer a choice whether you should pick hopper vs single dose grinding. I’d pick a 54 up just for single dosing different coffees, decaf etc. and use the hopper grinder for the daily use.
How do you manage switching to different coffees like that? Seems like you'd have to dial in every time so you end up wasting a lot of coffee on every switch
@@chongli297 that’s the single dosing game. Mostly I’d be using it for a consistent decaf option.
@@jimmythefish I've been in the espresso game for 2 years now and I single dose every time but I don't switch coffees until my current bag runs out! Still takes so long for me to dial in a coffee (and many just never work out or only taste great on the last 2 shots of the bag). I feel like I really need to switch to a lever machine
Where I'm from, the 54 is literally half the price of the 64 Gen 2, because it comes with DLC burrs by default. While I know the 64 is more versatile, powerful and consistent, but I just can't justify spending $1000AUD when the 54 is coming in at $449..
Df54 my next grinder
Now the question is: Eureka Specialita or DF54?
I have the same question.
Interesting information.
Trying to figure out how a Breville portafilter would work best with the DF54? Grind straight to portafilter with a dosing funnel? Or get a 53mm dosing cup that fits that angled rubberized holder?
It's interesting to see the difference being non-existent with the stock burrs. That said, I think the real reason anyone gets the DF64 is to put SSP burrs in so I would be more interested to see this test being done with SSP. I think that is also the major advantage of 64mm is that there are more burr options. The customizability at that size is unmatched and worth the extra value in and of itself.
iti'd be cool to compare this to a cheap grinder such as the Breville Smart Grinder Pro!
I am waiting for more ghost burr grinders. Ghost burrs in the 64 might have set the two further apart, as it is, why bother?
Aww man I can’t wait for the df54 to release.
I'm team 98mm(MK cast post 2015) and 83mm(SSP MP). I am not team Italmill burrs. Even my titanium coated Ceado 83mm classic geometry burrs are barely an upgrade.
I think most people have moved on from drinking classic darker roasts exclusively which is where Italmill burrs shine.
In my experience, burr size does matter, just not as much as burr geometry and grinder feed rates.
Feed rates for the win.
64mm burrs have 40% more surface area than 54mm ones.
(64^2 / 54^2 = 1.40)
Completely wrong. First of all, 64mm and 54mm are the diameter, not the radius of the burrs. Secondly, the surface area of the burrs is not an entire circle, but rather the area of the outer circle minus the area of the inner (empty) circle. so, in reality the surface area can not be determined without also knowing the inner diameter
@@DemocraticDangler
You’re right about the inner circle, tx!
I don’t think however that using the radius or diameter matters when calculating the ratio.
Please do 64mm vs 83mm I think the gape is bigger which will make the results even bigger and more clear on the data
I love the 54 (great grinder for the price)
Am I the only one hearing that tone sound in the background?
Nice video btw
Experimentation using the scientific method is science by anyone, including you or I. Nice, now I am confused on which one to get that would replace my Eureka 54mm that is the older model with doser. I dont like the doser, and I dont like the tiny knob, and I think these DF models MIGHT? be better?
I would like to add that I do not understand why you referred to the main difference as being “10mm of surface area”. I think the 10mm refer to the diameter difference. Surface area should be way more, around 1/3 more in the 64mm burr. Either than that, 54 looks and is great.
Someone already brought this up. I made a mistake, BUT this mistake in speaking about the diameter instead of surface area doesn’t negate the results found. So maybe stop focusing on the aesthetics and look at the overall picture.
@Sprometheus
The tone of your comment really is off-putting. It's totally OK to miss speak but when someone asks about it and your response is to deflect it does not look good. Comparing bottom of the barrel Italmill burrs in questionable quality Chinese grinders only shows that those 2 grinders on that day at that grind setting with that coffee offer similar results.
More surface area = bigger blank canvas to add different geometry and objectively add potential for improved taste.
I found this to be as unhelpful as when you put out a video saying you notice no great benefit to burr seasoning but you were using dark roast and conical burrs.
@@Sprometheus was replying to your highly mature comment with a detailed answer. Just going to say instead that it is good to know what’s your attitude outside of edited video.
I don’t think it will be 1/3 more in 64mm burr. Interesting fact: when two burrs have the same width, then 64mm will have only 10mm^2 more area than 54mm burr.
@@jasonsun7527it should be around 1/3 but the point is that whether it is 1/3 or 1/5, the result are faulted. So what Spro “kindly” communicated around seeing the bigger picture only points in the direction that he does not clearly understand that what he thinks he proved is faulted by design. But again, he was so kind in the reply that I did not want to lose time explaining. He might eventually find out.
The budget conscience me says the df54. An extra 15 seconds to grind my dose isn't going to make or break me. Wider burr selection doesn't phase me either. In all the reviews I have seen the df54 send to have better retention too.
It also doesn't help that the DF64 is double the price of the DF54 in Australia $429vs $849.
I have the DF64 gen2 it is a really nice grinder , I am getting absolutely no residual from this grinder it is clean and really easy to dial in ,I am so glad I bought it ,
I love your vídeos
Wow...the df54 will become the BUDGET KING!!!?
❤️☕ Love Is Important ☕❤️ .
if i ever jumped from using a hand grinder only, i'd jump on the DF54
Team DF54, because the price/performance ratio, and smaller size. For home use it does not matter if it grinds 10 seconds slower.
The DF-54 grinder is really terrible. It needs to be cleaned very frequently because particles block the chute, causing the beans to be over-ground. As a result, consistency is nonexistent, and the grind setting constantly needs to be adjusted. I wish you had mentioned that :P
As a Eureka Specialita owner, I can’t help but notice how much cheaper the DFs are. Are these machines as good or better than the Specialita? Should I switch?
how is there a comment from 16 hours ago from a 15 min ago video?
Maybe it was released on the TRS UA-cam membership first?
Yeah, channel members get videos released early.
Thanks for the pointer to third wave water. My city water runs from 350 to 650 TDS, and it is so full of minerals it is illegal to discharge from the waste stream, so water treatment plants must dilute our sewage with expensive lake water piped in from miles away. That lake water would be great for drinking, but it is reserved for one use because of the expense. It doesn't help that there are MUD's in the city that charge $300-$400 for water I pay $150 for, and people living in the desert in New Mexico pay $25 for. Thanks, Texas! But I digress.. My 650TDS water must be ro filtered if you want to use it for cooking or drinking. But RO ius supposed to be bad for coffee, according to the god himself James Hoffman... So I would do things like mix in some tap water sometimes, but without a proper chemistry formula, how the heck do I know what I'm even doing? What is my reference point for comparison? James had no answers. I have add-on filters to add minerals back in, but they start heavy then slow down, and I still don't have a chemistry formula, and with all the brands of mineralization filters, how do I know where to even start?
So this third wave product can at lease offer a repeatable chemistry formula, so now I can have a starting point in my water development problem. One of the nice parts about using ro water as a base is it will be almost identical no matter where it is used, if you use good quality filter media. So with "empty" ro water, and a known source of chemistry, dialing in water itself is now easier without endless taste tests and uncertain chemistry. And it was just a paid ad, so kudos for earning your money while being helpful... Third Wave adds $3 to $4 to the cost of each bag of coffee, so it isn't too expensive. The water in New Mexico is drinkable from the tap, so that will be what I compare to once I move, so it is possible I'll stop using ro for coffee, but I haven't had time to really test that.
I got my new df54 today, and I'm really happy with it so far, moving over from a Breville BCG820BSS, so BIG step up. I'm team54, but only because I plan to retire soon and 40% of my retirement money I have not earned yet, so choosing the 54 is choosing to retire a few hours earlier. (after doing the math, I'm underwelmed by the savings in terms of retirement, but it is actually a good problem to have I guess). God-James was not overly impressed by the 64, so he won't lileky like the 54 either, but I'm a mere mortal, so I'm sure I will love it just fine.
I tune to a grind on the finer side of things, so I wasn't happy with the breville, but it was good enough to save my arm from my Lido E-T. The Lido E-T was really good, and made great coffee with my flair classic press, and I think the df54 might be slightly better, but my flair is in new mexico so no side by sides yet. I'm using the DF54 on a setting of 10, and I was extremely happy with how easy the dial-in process was. The unit is very quiet, and I don't feel like I need to go finer, leaving room for adjustment... My breville was never quite fine enough, I had to tune by increasing dose, and I never had perfection. You CAN tune the breville by opening it up and moving the burs closer together, but it isn't enough to fix it. So I come to the df54 with expectations of an improvement, and I was not disappointed. As for workflow, I tried some shots with no wdt, and I still got some channeling, and some wdt was needed. However the amount of wdt needed was minimum. The dosing cup did not fit my portafilter, but it did fit my portafilter dosing funnel, so that was great.
Surface area (SA) would be in units of mm^2, so your statement of the 64 mm burr being 10 mm larger in burr SA doesn't make any sense.
I stand corrected. But I think from most folks perspective, 54 and 64 calling it 10mm which in this case is diameter, is easier to wrap your head around.
@@SprometheusI would then say you should use 10mm diameter as its a more accurate way to express what you mean. Surface area is complicated to actually measure in burs but it grown exponentially as you go up in size
That's ~78mm² of more cutting and grinding area. It's a lot in my opinion
Assuming the center diameter of burrs is half the diameter of the burrs, total area of 64: 2644mm^2 total area of 54: 1717mm^2. 64 is 53% larger.
Df54 throw away grinder ! They won't sell replacement Burr or blade for it , you must buy the 64 for that
The price is attractive, but the design that cannot be used with bg burr is not attractive.
I'm team conical 🤭
A 10mm change in diameter length does not equal a 10mm change in surface area.
That’s been discussed. Check the comment section before posting repeat comments
@@Sprometheus why waste my time when I can be like you?
Quite funny how people feel compelled to delve into the "Actual burr surface" discussion rather than simply enjoying the bottom line of this video: results are comparable and (most importantly) taste in the cup indistinguishable.
If you can bare to wait 10 seconds more for your grounds (at a lower volume and pitch of the 64) then you might as well go for a 54. In my eyes considering the price difference it's a bit of a no brainer for me. Thanks for the video, can't wait for my DF54 order to arrive!
@@dejedejsson To be fair I kind of expected that - we use a Nutribullet twice a day and I doubt the DF64 would be worse than that, and you only need to use it for 10 seconds at a time..!
Well crap. I just spent a bunch more money on a DF64.
Let me be brutally honest: I´m 100% more interested in the Difluid Omni than yet another grinder comparison...
At that price, it would be hard not to try it, even if it's from a Chinese company that rebrands.
They don’t rebrand anything; the Americans do.
@@adamg.manning6088 Then how can 2 companies; Turin and Miicoffee sell the same grinder?
@@dejedejsson Right. It's made by this 3rd party which is concerning to me.