Cool game. He was going to be perpetually supply blocked and he didn't have the larva count to make enough overlords in time and get a healthy enough hydra count to push back the corsairs. It would take him over a minute before he would be able to have enough hydras to stabilize, and by that point he'll have fallen too far behind to handle bisu's followup.
11:17 is the most impressive thing in a while. Look at how fast he pulls the probes after seeing the white on the mini map, in range from his gateway. It's like half a second that he perfectly sets up. If that's anyone else like me it takes a full second and the lings run passed right before the probes meet up.
@@giovannigaronetti3981 I guess it's cuz he knew the game state so well like he must've realized counter attack was possible and that's why he pulled the probes so fast, he was expecting it. Goes to show you how focused they are, thinking about the different possibilities like counter attack.
Loved the discussion on matchups in the first few minutes of this video. I'd really enjoy an Arty lecture series on the essence of all the different matchups.
@Dziaji Yeah, I hear ya...was a small miracle that my wife and I could watch True Detective this weekend. Today was more of a fluke, but it's a far cry from those first months!
@@nifarious yeah, the first 3 months are the worst because there is no such thing as a good night's sleep, and when they decide to cry for hours because of gas or whatever, there is no sleep at all.
while i will say that is definitely true at the absolute highest level, when we're not talking about that it is VERY easy for a Z to make huuuuge mistakes in ZvP that can easily cost them the game. not dodging a single psi storm or 2-3 reaver scarabs well enough can kill like 40+ supply ez at basically no risk to the Protoss, for example. you dont really see this happen at the highest level because Zergs are very fast at reacting to them, very often preemptively split, take huge concaves, do lots of flanks, etc. all of those things help to pretty effectively mitigate the potential losses when a good storm _does_ land. but these things at lower levels you generally only see a Zerg do 1, maybe 2 of these things, and only doing 1 or 2 of those things is just not enough without the Protoss making some big slipups too. this is kind of why ZvP is my favorite matchup. both players have to play so insanely well otherwise it becomes an absolutely unsustainable cutthroat blood bath, and when both players are pretty equally skilled and pushing each other and the game to the max, it is by-far the most volatile but most interesting matchup in the game. this one particular matchup feels overall the most closely balanced and most well-designed. almost every single tool on both sides can and often is used, every single thing cycles back into each other, gets countered, does countering, phases in, phases out, phases back in, and so on, constantly. it is a never-ending circular arms race. P makes lots of HTs, so Z gets Lurkers and/or Mutas to absorb storms or snipe, P turns those HT into Archons, get Dragoons, Hydras and Dark Swarm massively hardcounter archons and Dragoons, and then High Templar massively hardcounter Hydras, Zealots hardcounter Dark Swarm, and there's just several loops and branches and twists and turns like this in PvZ that never cease to amaze and interest me and i definitely think despite dozens and dozens of hours of watching PvZ fights i dont think ive seen everything.
Great series between these two. Quick question for you Artosis, can you give a recommendation for resources or what one should do in order to learn and get into playing competitive Brood War in 2024?
There are a couple f to s rank tutorials on UA-cam. Hawk does a good one for zerg. If you are in north America play on us west server. Better population. Gl hf
Artosis vs B-Protoss is like a hockey shootout. Except Terran only has a goalie, who is solely responsible for scoring their points, and can only attempt a goal after stealing the puck from an invisible caped shooter. She’s also a medic, so she usually just wanders off and lets in an easy one. If she accidentally steals the puck somehow, her wonky goalie-stick shot has to dodge a stasis and at least a couple of maelstroms. If the puck can do that and still stay on target, there’s a minigolf-windmill followed by a game of plinko in front of the other net to stop it anyway. If the Terrans can by some miracle gain a lead, it doesn’t matter. Always sudden death for Protoss regardless of the shootout deficit.
I think if they make SC3 the map should be self generating random terrain map. Yes it’s unbalanced but that’s the excitement of it. And long run best players will win. Just like poker or other games
They tried this in age of empires 4. now its dead. no one wants to play a game with clunky units, castle rushes, open undefendable spaces and cheap navy
WOW bisu probes micro is perfect! Not only the micro on 1 probe, his probes micro is perfect! Only Bisu and a few other protoss can play this BO against TOP zergs and win! Jesus!
Hiya, Just wanna say thanks for the daily casts! I always put them while getting ready for bed. I can feed my cats and really hear some great comentary!
I know that this is game 7 of a 9 game series, so it is reasonable to assume that the viewer knows who the players are. That being said, I think it would be really helpful if you would please announce who is playing what color and race at the beginning of each match. Keep up the great work!
I really appreciate all the general stuff you talk about during these casts. For example about what makes maps imbalanced for different matchups, or about which matchups are extra difficult etc. Great casts!
What excellent games! I only have one comment for the cast, would you please not skip so much of the beginning of game 2? The nexus first was an interesting opener, but there are different kinds of nexus first (11/12 nexus, probe skipping after etc) and we just didnt get much info on that. I would have liked to see the nexus go down so that i have a good Bisu-level benchmark for how fast a nexus can go down on that exact build. The game was sub-8 minutes long, we didnt need to skip the first 2 minutes for the sake of brevity. Even from a storytelling perspective i think the surprise of the nexus first going down and you explaining the ramifications of the nexus first would have been more interesting than just saying it was a nexus first and then seeing the gate second and exclaiming it was greedy. We could have had more insight into the calculated greed of the nexus first and then been surprised by the additional greed of the gateway if we had more time. I just dont see the advantage of cutting such a small amount of time from the overall length of the video and missing a lot of actual information on the openers
@@serkan9970 Then his editor needs to not skip so much of the games. Artosis should see a timestamp of 1:51 and tell his editor, “no, give me the whole game”. We’re missing valuable info
@@MarkJBright That would be funny if it didnt take so much value from the cast (nor do i believe its actually the reason for the edit).This isnt a meme channel, its a game commentary channel
@@marketingcoelho2058 Race balance depends on the map. TvP at 40% on Heartbreak Ridge was more difficult than PvZ on Heartbreak Ridge at 48%. The hardest TvP map on the ladder right now, Tempest, is a 45%er, and so is the hardest PvZ map, La Campanella.
Hey Arty, love ya! But come on man, the stats you looked through showed that PvZ isn't actually as brutal for P as ZvT is for Z, and amount of times where Zergs outplay their Terran opponent for the whole game just to be completely killed with a drop or a sneaky push is insane, let's not pretend that zerg isn't very brittle in this matchup until lategame
ZvP is the matchup that reaches 55% or more on the largest amount of modern maps, compared to the other matchups. By that criterion, it is the most imbalanced matchup in the metagame. Edit: Actually I pulled that out of my ass based on a previous map pool. I don't even know what the current map pool is like. Let me check. Out of the current ladder maps, there are only three that reach or exceed 55%: Polypoid, with 56.6% TvZ, Vermeer with 58.6% TvZ and 56.4% TvP Retro with 57.1% TvZ Tempest comes close with 54.2% PvT La Campanella comes close with 54.7% ZvP Anyway, the idea of StarCraft balance regardless of maps is logically incoherent because StarCraft is played on maps, and maps can favour either race in any matchup, as we have seen with historical examples. There is no game balance. There is only metagame balance. The maps people play on is not part of the game, but the metagame. The closest you can come to game balance is the metagame balance on the kind of maps people tend to and like to make.
I would like to see some old school toss build like no fast exp but fast reaver for example or faking that he is going reaver or some other tech but he goes fast zealots.. I wonder what would be response from zerg when doesn't see exp on natural. The same builds all the time are just boring..
That's just starcraft, man. There's no such thing as a fast reaver vs Zerg, because Lings beat zealot and goon so you can't just go fast reaver, you need to wall. And if you're going to wall it makes 0 sense not to fast expand. There are some builds where you get 2 gate zealots before expanding, or doing some weird 3 gate citadel all in.
@@alexfriedman2152 LOL how long are you playing starcraft? Not so long obviously.. Imagine that it was normal back in the day to not go fast exp. You stay in your main make 2 zealots to block the ramp. Maybe goon as well or even canon and you go fast tech.. The build was basically similar to fast exp, but without the exp.. It was also normal to go just two gates and basically play like PvP. Zealots, goons and go attack or make exp after that. Simply it was much harder for zerg to figure out what toss is doing. Now when he knows he is doing exp he can go exp without thinking and even third..
@@jirihutecka9020 ? It was normal back in the day to go 2 gate zealot, yes, in like 2000. That was way back in 2000. I played back then. That was before anyone knew what to do. You don't sound like you understand the game but whatever bro! I was answering your question. You asked the question and I answered. It doesn't make sense, nobody does that, it's absolutely wrong and incorrect. I'm a B rank Protoss. I know how to play Starcraft at a decent level. That's a total troll build staying on 1 base.
@@jirihutecka9020 And then there are some builds where you block the ramp and get fast stargate and then try to bully your way to retake your natural but it's not very good honestly. Fast expand seems to be the best way to win imo. If you wanna play anytime I'd down. Lemme know if you want to 1v1
@@alexfriedman2152 You said " There's no such thing as a fast reaver vs Zerg, because Lings beat zealot and goon so you can't just go fast reaver, you need to wall." So you obviously never tried playing without fast exp.. You can easily defent the ramp with units that you are making in one gate and go fast tech like in PvT.. The games would be much more interesting from the start. But when everybody is making fast exp it is set for classic long macro game.. Where the builds are the same all the time..
ZvT is one of the hardest matchups in the game. If anyone wants to make an argument that it's not THE hardest, I get that because I think PvZ might be the hardest but I won't go into detail on that for now. Artosis is too Terran-brained to truly appreciate how difficult a match-up it is for the Zerg's side. It's really easy to default to "wow defiler is OP" (and to that I say look at how much easier it is to control a SV) but Zerg's macro and decision making in ZvT are extremely difficult. I hate how Artosis can admit to the complexity of this game and yet make sweeping generalizations that over simplify just how much there is to the game. Like a statement "It just comes down to Mutalisk control" is INSANE. Anyone who has given Zerg a fair chance knows there is so much more to it than that, and so many hurdles for Zerg to overcome in this matchup. There is a reason why the highest level Zergs in the world often have their lowest winrate in this matchup. I am not kidding you can look at the stats yousrelf. There is a huge trend supporting this.
Nah. There are Zerg favoured, balanced, and Terran favoured maps in ZvT. If you're talking about the non pro level, then I disagree as well. I have mained every race and I didn't find ZvT to be harder than TvZ.
Are you kidding me? At lower level TvZ becomes far easier if you just abuse Goliath builds. Idk I have a feeling you don't play much. @@freehatespeech6804
Why Arty? The only real argument you can make is that the early game of ZvT is easier than the other 'hardest' matchups. I don't think Terran players truly appreciate how powerful the Science Vessel is against Zerg. If you play Zerg enough you will understand how terrifying and hopeless it feels to play against a good Terran that maintains their SV count. Has map balancing improved the chances of ZvT? Of course. But you can say that for every matchup, including the dreaded TvP.@@ArtosisCasts
Unrelated to thos video: any Artosis aficionados aware of any casts where Devourers win? I feel like I've only ever seen them once or twice both losing
Devourers are mega niche units, can't recall the last time I saw them used. I'm also interested if anyone recalls a game with them being used effectively
Devourers don't really "win" on their own. They are kind of an air support unit. You'll see them in ZvZ most often bc their status effect has splash, but it's hard for devourers to pay for themselves in other matchups.
What was bisu's mistake in the ling hydra all in? I want to know what protoss can realistically do to stop and anticipate all-ins without getting too far behind economically in PvZ. The speedlings deny scouting, but that doesn't necessarily point to hydra all ins, it could be a muta tech for all protoss knows until the corsair scout. It seems all the risk is on protoss and all the rewards are for Zerg so Zerg has so much more opportunities to steal wins. Does it affect protoss that much to just pre-emptively add at least 1 extra cannon around the 5:15 mark and just cancel if they see it's not hydra? I don't understand why this apparent imbalance in the matchup isn't addressed. This seems like a straightup build order loss with not much protoss could've done in hindsight. In any balanced game, your risks should match the rewards. We understand that all-ins or cheeses can reward the victory if successful, but lose you the game if not. With ZvP, zerg doesn't stand to lose much in their "all-in" type of builds because they deal so much economic damage to protoss they at worst equalize the game and best they win the game outright. In other matchups like in TvP, yes Protoss has more opportunities to win and Terran is the one with less margin for error, but most of the time you can pinpoint the exact mistakes that Terran made and could've done better within their control. So I'm asking anyone here to point out the same, what could Protoss realistically have done better to avoid being in a lose-lose scenario here in the 1st game that isn't just about luck? If you say get corsairs earlier, that restricts the build orders that Protoss can do which is faster tech, and the race with more limited options will be telegraphed easier and the opposing race can get greedy since you're cutting zealots in favor of faster tech, or vice versa, so if early zealot pressure puts Protoss in more lose-lose scenarios, then it becomes easier for Zerg to predict which build options they can anticipate and take advantage. If Zerg has a good read and scout on protoss, it's nearly impossible for protoss to get the jump on Zerg. The games I've witnessed where Protoss deals early damage to Zerg is usually when Zerg fails to scout properly, so it's Zerg's game to lose rather than Protoss outplaying them. I have no problem saying PvT is more favored to Protoss as long as it's a more open map and don't have ridges with dropship siege tank abusable terrain. Protoss can make a lot of mistakes and still come out on top in a decisive battle, but I feel Terran still has control over the outcome if they just outplay Protoss by some degrees and minimize their mistakes. But with ZvP, even a lower tier Zerg can beat a higher tier Protoss pro with not much room to "outplay" zerg at such an early game where resources are more limited and the game hasn't developed much to get a read on what your opponent could be doing. Not to mention zerg tech is much cheaper than protoss tech, so if you're comparing PvT and PvZ. Protoss when they go for an all-in they have to forgo other tech options earlier and make trade-offs, but with Zerg the trade-offs are much more minimal since they usually will utilize all the tech trees and they are cheaper to implement and switch.
This "zerg imba" mindset is resembling sc2 toxic mindset that lead to the downfall of the game. Honestly just get better. We already know statistically pvz is almost 50% at the top level of all time meaning it is actually balanced even with the zerg all-in options If you are not dealing with it then you are not getting better lol
@@tehvolka Did you not read the comment about speedlings deny probe scouting? Speedlings are FASTER than a probe, meaning a probe can't scout. Even slow lings outpace a probe slightly.
@@Raz0rIG sure, but by the time you get speed ling, you might get a read if the allin is coming (if you are really on top of the game). It's hard thou, edging your bets with an extra cannon is a good idea.
That was great when barcode GG'd in the second game, leaving the victory to my favorite player barcode
knew barcode would win
Awesome summary!
Where's scan when you need someone to deal with all these barcodes?
Cool game. He was going to be perpetually supply blocked and he didn't have the larva count to make enough overlords in time and get a healthy enough hydra count to push back the corsairs. It would take him over a minute before he would be able to have enough hydras to stabilize, and by that point he'll have fallen too far behind to handle bisu's followup.
11:17 is the most impressive thing in a while. Look at how fast he pulls the probes after seeing the white on the mini map, in range from his gateway. It's like half a second that he perfectly sets up. If that's anyone else like me it takes a full second and the lings run passed right before the probes meet up.
the timing of that defending move was just INSANE
@@giovannigaronetti3981 I guess it's cuz he knew the game state so well like he must've realized counter attack was possible and that's why he pulled the probes so fast, he was expecting it. Goes to show you how focused they are, thinking about the different possibilities like counter attack.
Loved the discussion on matchups in the first few minutes of this video. I'd really enjoy an Arty lecture series on the essence of all the different matchups.
Perfectly timed 13:37 video, i see what u did there when starting the 2nd game past the 2min mark :D
One-year-old woke up early today and this and coffee are what's getting me through.
Get to bed as early as possible every day. Trust me, it is the only way. Sacrifice the enjoyment of your nights for the sanity of your mornings.
@Dziaji Yeah, I hear ya...was a small miracle that my wife and I could watch True Detective this weekend. Today was more of a fluke, but it's a far cry from those first months!
@@nifarious yeah, the first 3 months are the worst because there is no such thing as a good night's sleep, and when they decide to cry for hours because of gas or whatever, there is no sleep at all.
while i will say that is definitely true at the absolute highest level, when we're not talking about that it is VERY easy for a Z to make huuuuge mistakes in ZvP that can easily cost them the game. not dodging a single psi storm or 2-3 reaver scarabs well enough can kill like 40+ supply ez at basically no risk to the Protoss, for example. you dont really see this happen at the highest level because Zergs are very fast at reacting to them, very often preemptively split, take huge concaves, do lots of flanks, etc. all of those things help to pretty effectively mitigate the potential losses when a good storm _does_ land. but these things at lower levels you generally only see a Zerg do 1, maybe 2 of these things, and only doing 1 or 2 of those things is just not enough without the Protoss making some big slipups too.
this is kind of why ZvP is my favorite matchup. both players have to play so insanely well otherwise it becomes an absolutely unsustainable cutthroat blood bath, and when both players are pretty equally skilled and pushing each other and the game to the max, it is by-far the most volatile but most interesting matchup in the game. this one particular matchup feels overall the most closely balanced and most well-designed. almost every single tool on both sides can and often is used, every single thing cycles back into each other, gets countered, does countering, phases in, phases out, phases back in, and so on, constantly. it is a never-ending circular arms race. P makes lots of HTs, so Z gets Lurkers and/or Mutas to absorb storms or snipe, P turns those HT into Archons, get Dragoons, Hydras and Dark Swarm massively hardcounter archons and Dragoons, and then High Templar massively hardcounter Hydras, Zealots hardcounter Dark Swarm, and there's just several loops and branches and twists and turns like this in PvZ that never cease to amaze and interest me and i definitely think despite dozens and dozens of hours of watching PvZ fights i dont think ive seen everything.
thanks man, love waking up with a new cool bw game
Feels like cannons take 90 seconds to make
11:18 man that was a fast Probe pull. Won him the game.
Great series between these two. Quick question for you Artosis, can you give a recommendation for resources or what one should do in order to learn and get into playing competitive Brood War in 2024?
nice metapod icon :D
There are a couple f to s rank tutorials on UA-cam. Hawk does a good one for zerg. If you are in north America play on us west server. Better population. Gl hf
We didn't see the beginning of game 2 but I assume that was a 9 pool? Pretty crazy stuff from Bisu to hold that with Nexus-Gate.
Looking at the timings (hatchery before lings for instance), I assume it was an overpool. Still, stopping this was miraculous
I wish we would have seen more of the beginning to understand that a bit better, but i do believe it was an overpool
That’s why they’re pros. I 100% would’ve quit when Bisu lost like 3 cannons in a row
oh Bisu you beautiful beast
As an A rank protoss player who recently switched to Terran I can wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment at the start of the game.
Spoilers
3 bases and plenty of army up with active mining... what a bogus gg.
Bisu needs a asl
Artosis vs B-Protoss is like a hockey shootout. Except Terran only has a goalie, who is solely responsible for scoring their points, and can only attempt a goal after stealing the puck from an invisible caped shooter. She’s also a medic, so she usually just wanders off and lets in an easy one. If she accidentally steals the puck somehow, her wonky goalie-stick shot has to dodge a stasis and at least a couple of maelstroms. If the puck can do that and still stay on target, there’s a minigolf-windmill followed by a game of plinko in front of the other net to stop it anyway. If the Terrans can by some miracle gain a lead, it doesn’t matter. Always sudden death for Protoss regardless of the shootout deficit.
Another excellent game of Walking the Tightrope to victory. The decision making was just as good as you said it would be.
last game was very cool but it looked like they were both drunk
It's important to not do the bad decision and to do the best decisions :)
I think if they make SC3 the map should be self generating random terrain map. Yes it’s unbalanced but that’s the excitement of it. And long run best players will win. Just like poker or other games
They tried this in age of empires 4. now its dead. no one wants to play a game with clunky units, castle rushes, open undefendable spaces and cheap navy
Artosis be honest you edited this so it would be 13:37 long
Love seeing Zerg swarm and overwhelm.
WOW bisu probes micro is perfect! Not only the micro on 1 probe, his probes micro is perfect! Only Bisu and a few other protoss can play this BO against TOP zergs and win! Jesus!
one of the best 8-10 mins PvZ i have seen in a while
Hiya, Just wanna say thanks for the daily casts! I always put them while getting ready for bed. I can feed my cats and really hear some great comentary!
Spoiler blocker
I know that this is game 7 of a 9 game series, so it is reasonable to assume that the viewer knows who the players are. That being said, I think it would be really helpful if you would please announce who is playing what color and race at the beginning of each match.
Keep up the great work!
it’s not a mirror matchup. shouldn’t be too hard to figure out.
@@djinn_tseng Yeah, Bisu on Zerg, Soma on Protoss. Everyone knows Bisu was the best zerg back when Jaedong was the best Protoss.
@@Bassium08 your knowledge of brood war rivals that of artosis himself. truly elite.
@@djinn_tseng LOL
Spoiler:
Bisu and soma going blow for blow.. this has been just as exciting as the zelot match.. so sick
I really appreciate all the general stuff you talk about during these casts. For example about what makes maps imbalanced for different matchups, or about which matchups are extra difficult etc. Great casts!
thank u for casting
New Zerg rush hits different
Again with the WHAMMIES! sick games!
I love to watch these broodwar casts :) also nice length of the video :pp
For the algo
Interesting games! Such great probe control.
gotta love how the new rush is what we did back in the day to punish a toss for early expo
1337 ftw!
niceu
I really feel like seeing someone do something different.
4:55 "haaalp!"
Damn I thought it was over in the second game
Amazing back and forth between these two.
gotta say this was a real knife fight!
What excellent games! I only have one comment for the cast, would you please not skip so much of the beginning of game 2? The nexus first was an interesting opener, but there are different kinds of nexus first (11/12 nexus, probe skipping after etc) and we just didnt get much info on that. I would have liked to see the nexus go down so that i have a good Bisu-level benchmark for how fast a nexus can go down on that exact build. The game was sub-8 minutes long, we didnt need to skip the first 2 minutes for the sake of brevity. Even from a storytelling perspective i think the surprise of the nexus first going down and you explaining the ramifications of the nexus first would have been more interesting than just saying it was a nexus first and then seeing the gate second and exclaiming it was greedy. We could have had more insight into the calculated greed of the nexus first and then been surprised by the additional greed of the gateway if we had more time. I just dont see the advantage of cutting such a small amount of time from the overall length of the video and missing a lot of actual information on the openers
RT made the video 13:37 length on purpose... LEET!
he is watching the games for the first time, like us bro
@@serkan9970 Then his editor needs to not skip so much of the games. Artosis should see a timestamp of 1:51 and tell his editor, “no, give me the whole game”. We’re missing valuable info
@@MarkJBright That would be funny if it didnt take so much value from the cast (nor do i believe its actually the reason for the edit).This isnt a meme channel, its a game commentary channel
PvZ is much harder than TvP.
Not for me
@@freehatespeech6804 I was talking on pro level
@@marketingcoelho2058 Race balance depends on the map. TvP at 40% on Heartbreak Ridge was more difficult than PvZ on Heartbreak Ridge at 48%.
The hardest TvP map on the ladder right now, Tempest, is a 45%er, and so is the hardest PvZ map, La Campanella.
You da man, Arty!
Hey Arty, love ya!
But come on man, the stats you looked through showed that PvZ isn't actually as brutal for P as ZvT is for Z, and amount of times where Zergs outplay their Terran opponent for the whole game just to be completely killed with a drop or a sneaky push is insane, let's not pretend that zerg isn't very brittle in this matchup until lategame
ZvP is the matchup that reaches 55% or more on the largest amount of modern maps, compared to the other matchups. By that criterion, it is the most imbalanced matchup in the metagame.
Edit: Actually I pulled that out of my ass based on a previous map pool. I don't even know what the current map pool is like. Let me check.
Out of the current ladder maps, there are only three that reach or exceed 55%:
Polypoid, with 56.6% TvZ,
Vermeer with 58.6% TvZ and 56.4% TvP
Retro with 57.1% TvZ
Tempest comes close with 54.2% PvT
La Campanella comes close with 54.7% ZvP
Anyway, the idea of StarCraft balance regardless of maps is logically incoherent because StarCraft is played on maps, and maps can favour either race in any matchup, as we have seen with historical examples. There is no game balance. There is only metagame balance. The maps people play on is not part of the game, but the metagame. The closest you can come to game balance is the metagame balance on the kind of maps people tend to and like to make.
I would like to see some old school toss build like no fast exp but fast reaver for example or faking that he is going reaver or some other tech but he goes fast zealots.. I wonder what would be response from zerg when doesn't see exp on natural. The same builds all the time are just boring..
That's just starcraft, man. There's no such thing as a fast reaver vs Zerg, because Lings beat zealot and goon so you can't just go fast reaver, you need to wall. And if you're going to wall it makes 0 sense not to fast expand. There are some builds where you get 2 gate zealots before expanding, or doing some weird 3 gate citadel all in.
@@alexfriedman2152 LOL how long are you playing starcraft? Not so long obviously.. Imagine that it was normal back in the day to not go fast exp. You stay in your main make 2 zealots to block the ramp. Maybe goon as well or even canon and you go fast tech.. The build was basically similar to fast exp, but without the exp.. It was also normal to go just two gates and basically play like PvP. Zealots, goons and go attack or make exp after that. Simply it was much harder for zerg to figure out what toss is doing. Now when he knows he is doing exp he can go exp without thinking and even third..
@@jirihutecka9020 ? It was normal back in the day to go 2 gate zealot, yes, in like 2000. That was way back in 2000. I played back then. That was before anyone knew what to do. You don't sound like you understand the game but whatever bro! I was answering your question. You asked the question and I answered. It doesn't make sense, nobody does that, it's absolutely wrong and incorrect. I'm a B rank Protoss. I know how to play Starcraft at a decent level. That's a total troll build staying on 1 base.
@@jirihutecka9020 And then there are some builds where you block the ramp and get fast stargate and then try to bully your way to retake your natural but it's not very good honestly. Fast expand seems to be the best way to win imo. If you wanna play anytime I'd down. Lemme know if you want to 1v1
@@alexfriedman2152 You said " There's no such thing as a fast reaver vs Zerg, because Lings beat zealot and goon so you can't just go fast reaver, you need to wall."
So you obviously never tried playing without fast exp.. You can easily defent the ramp with units that you are making in one gate and go fast tech like in PvT.. The games would be much more interesting from the start. But when everybody is making fast exp it is set for classic long macro game.. Where the builds are the same all the time..
ZvT is one of the hardest matchups in the game. If anyone wants to make an argument that it's not THE hardest, I get that because I think PvZ might be the hardest but I won't go into detail on that for now. Artosis is too Terran-brained to truly appreciate how difficult a match-up it is for the Zerg's side. It's really easy to default to "wow defiler is OP" (and to that I say look at how much easier it is to control a SV) but Zerg's macro and decision making in ZvT are extremely difficult.
I hate how Artosis can admit to the complexity of this game and yet make sweeping generalizations that over simplify just how much there is to the game. Like a statement "It just comes down to Mutalisk control" is INSANE. Anyone who has given Zerg a fair chance knows there is so much more to it than that, and so many hurdles for Zerg to overcome in this matchup.
There is a reason why the highest level Zergs in the world often have their lowest winrate in this matchup. I am not kidding you can look at the stats yousrelf. There is a huge trend supporting this.
You are a moron.
Nah. There are Zerg favoured, balanced, and Terran favoured maps in ZvT.
If you're talking about the non pro level, then I disagree as well. I have mained every race and I didn't find ZvT to be harder than TvZ.
Guys in the chat be trolling again arty lol@@ArtosisCasts
Are you kidding me? At lower level TvZ becomes far easier if you just abuse Goliath builds. Idk I have a feeling you don't play much. @@freehatespeech6804
Why Arty? The only real argument you can make is that the early game of ZvT is easier than the other 'hardest' matchups.
I don't think Terran players truly appreciate how powerful the Science Vessel is against Zerg. If you play Zerg enough you will understand how terrifying and hopeless it feels to play against a good Terran that maintains their SV count.
Has map balancing improved the chances of ZvT? Of course. But you can say that for every matchup, including the dreaded TvP.@@ArtosisCasts
Unrelated to thos video: any Artosis aficionados aware of any casts where Devourers win? I feel like I've only ever seen them once or twice both losing
Devourers are mega niche units, can't recall the last time I saw them used. I'm also interested if anyone recalls a game with them being used effectively
Devourers don't really "win" on their own. They are kind of an air support unit. You'll see them in ZvZ most often bc their status effect has splash, but it's hard for devourers to pay for themselves in other matchups.
@@ericjepson3765 Agreed, and ZvZs are such brutal low eco knife-fights that just getting to hive tech is quite rare as well
They can be effective against valkyries in theory but don't really work out in practice.
@@ericjepson3765 and high numbers of valks when hive is out is also a rarity
Alas, poor devourer
Fist
New gay
What was bisu's mistake in the ling hydra all in? I want to know what protoss can realistically do to stop and anticipate all-ins without getting too far behind economically in PvZ. The speedlings deny scouting, but that doesn't necessarily point to hydra all ins, it could be a muta tech for all protoss knows until the corsair scout. It seems all the risk is on protoss and all the rewards are for Zerg so Zerg has so much more opportunities to steal wins. Does it affect protoss that much to just pre-emptively add at least 1 extra cannon around the 5:15 mark and just cancel if they see it's not hydra?
I don't understand why this apparent imbalance in the matchup isn't addressed. This seems like a straightup build order loss with not much protoss could've done in hindsight. In any balanced game, your risks should match the rewards. We understand that all-ins or cheeses can reward the victory if successful, but lose you the game if not. With ZvP, zerg doesn't stand to lose much in their "all-in" type of builds because they deal so much economic damage to protoss they at worst equalize the game and best they win the game outright.
In other matchups like in TvP, yes Protoss has more opportunities to win and Terran is the one with less margin for error, but most of the time you can pinpoint the exact mistakes that Terran made and could've done better within their control. So I'm asking anyone here to point out the same, what could Protoss realistically have done better to avoid being in a lose-lose scenario here in the 1st game that isn't just about luck?
If you say get corsairs earlier, that restricts the build orders that Protoss can do which is faster tech, and the race with more limited options will be telegraphed easier and the opposing race can get greedy since you're cutting zealots in favor of faster tech, or vice versa, so if early zealot pressure puts Protoss in more lose-lose scenarios, then it becomes easier for Zerg to predict which build options they can anticipate and take advantage. If Zerg has a good read and scout on protoss, it's nearly impossible for protoss to get the jump on Zerg. The games I've witnessed where Protoss deals early damage to Zerg is usually when Zerg fails to scout properly, so it's Zerg's game to lose rather than Protoss outplaying them.
I have no problem saying PvT is more favored to Protoss as long as it's a more open map and don't have ridges with dropship siege tank abusable terrain. Protoss can make a lot of mistakes and still come out on top in a decisive battle, but I feel Terran still has control over the outcome if they just outplay Protoss by some degrees and minimize their mistakes. But with ZvP, even a lower tier Zerg can beat a higher tier Protoss pro with not much room to "outplay" zerg at such an early game where resources are more limited and the game hasn't developed much to get a read on what your opponent could be doing. Not to mention zerg tech is much cheaper than protoss tech, so if you're comparing PvT and PvZ. Protoss when they go for an all-in they have to forgo other tech options earlier and make trade-offs, but with Zerg the trade-offs are much more minimal since they usually will utilize all the tech trees and they are cheaper to implement and switch.
He lost the scouting probe too quickly.
This "zerg imba" mindset is resembling sc2 toxic mindset that lead to the downfall of the game.
Honestly just get better. We already know statistically pvz is almost 50% at the top level of all time meaning it is actually balanced even with the zerg all-in options
If you are not dealing with it then you are not getting better lol
@@tehvolka Did you not read the comment about speedlings deny probe scouting? Speedlings are FASTER than a probe, meaning a probe can't scout. Even slow lings outpace a probe slightly.
@@goodisgood153 It seems by your "logic" Bisu needs to "get good". Next time why don't you actually address the question I've posed.
@@Raz0rIG sure, but by the time you get speed ling, you might get a read if the allin is coming (if you are really on top of the game). It's hard thou, edging your bets with an extra cannon is a good idea.
Protoss beats Terran beats Zerg beats Protoss. That's Broodwar.
Nah. There are plenty of maps that are balanced, and maps on which the race that you say should lose, actually has >50%.