I feel like the Ghost is too well rounded and versatile. No other caster is built in numbers nearing 20 and kept at the front of the fighting army. Their DPS is much higher than other casters. No other caster attacks air and ground with it's default attack. Many don't even have a default attack at all, the ones that do - like High Templar... their default attack doesn't contribute meaningfully to fights. You can see this on display in Uthermal's Ghost Rush to Grandmaster series. The ghost is so good at combat you can all in with an all caster strategy. Is there any other caster in the game as viable to do that with? The ghost can also move faster than other ground casters. Compare this with how handicapped the high templar is by it's movement speed, to the point where it is juggled in prisms to compensate. The ghost can stay at the front, and escape quickly, or cloak fight well during engagements, extending it's usefulness beyond the role of support unit. On top of this the ghost spells are the highest range of all casters, which combined with high movement speed makes them easier to use. So the ghost is too well rounded with no drawbacks. They move too fast, and fight too well by default. This is why Gumiho feels safe building nearly 20 of them and keeping them at the very front of his fighting army. Any other caster built in these numbers would make an army vulnerable - hence we never see 20 ravens, 20 vipers/high templar/infestors etc leading the army. I think the ghost should move slower. The ghosts default attack should have similar damage output to the High Templar and only target ground (the big rifle is for the snipe, in close combat a sniper pulls their sidearm right?). These changes alone would create more penalty for building 20 of them, and keeping them out front. Their use would need to be more considered and tactical. I also think that Steady Targeting is too useful in too many situations. The ghost is meant to be a counter to other casters, hence the bonus damage to psionic units (130 +40). This focus could be enhanced by leaning into this bonus and making the damage say 105 (+65) meaning it takes one extra snipe to take out a Broodlord or Ultra. These kinds of tweaks push the ghost more to a specialist unit that needs to be incorporated with consideration rather than built en-masse due to it's versaitility. If you made it through wall of text you now have an honorary degree from UA-cam University. Carpe Diem.
ChatGPT: "Players like uThermal and Lorimbo are known for their analytical skills and clear communication of complex game mechanics." Lorimbo: *incomprehensible italian rage seizure*
That strategy actually worked for Protoss in SC1 because 400 supply limit after mind control. And it can work against Protoss in SC2 because you only need to start a building and it will finish without a probe mind controlled.
Too expensive and too tedious. It's only theoretical. Applicability is zero. (not to mention limited range of the mind control and you HAVE to research it first and YOU HAVE TO RESEARCH BURROW TO MAKE INFESTORS EVEN WORK, very weak infestors (very low HP), as a terran you can just scan and destroy the infestors quite easily using any unit). Your infestor also need to be there all the time until the SCV finishes building. By the time it would finish, the infested scv is already gone.
the play was hold fire lurkers to snipe the ghosts when they where running away from the broodlords you only need like 2 to wipe out bio armies that do not know the lurkers are under them yes he has scans did you see how he used them ahead of his army, never in the retreat and always in the middle of the map to check for the zerg broodlords since he knew they had to be their if they wanted to get anywhere on the map just 2 lurkers flanking and hold fire after the terran retreated to regroup could have changed the game by wiping out the ghosts letting the broodlords do their thing and wiping out the thors we watched a sane man go insane, he slammed his comp against the terran comp expecting a different result only to find the same one over and over again
@@ShelbySigouinYou're kinda right. Reynor made tons of mistakes and he allowed his opponent to reach an ultra late game army while he was still on roaches.
@@tomasotomatoI always wondered about the spider reflexes and the "sense of danger" as it portraied in spiderman movies and comics (or serrals gameplay) Spiders are probably the easiest critters to kill in the household. You can hit them fast, slow, full hand or just a finger. Doesnt matter, they barely move away. Even if you dont want to kill but catch them with like a glass or something they'll likely die because they will run under the rim in the exact wrong moment. Spideysense seems nonexistent.
@@LordDarkwater TLDR: Their reflexes aren't slow, they're just completely wrong for the situation. Like Serral trying to play Elden Ring. (I am now going to be extremely embarrassed when it turns out Serral is also secretly LetMeSoloHim.) Spiders have fairly weak eyesight (especially for something with so many eyes) and extremely primitive 'brains' (they aren't even real brains tbh) that are mostly dedicated to catching prey, not escaping danger. Even when they *are* in danger, running is not their go-to move because most spider-predators are much faster than spiders. Like, they'll do it if they have to, but they'd much prefer to hide somewhere dark and cramped where hopefully their usually much larger predators won't be able to reach them. You may see the issue here. My understanding is that not only do they not register that the sudden shadow might indicate something bad is about to happen to them, but they actually think dark, shady areas are good for web-building and safe from potential predators, and so they think it's a *good* sign when everything goes dark. They'll run under the rim because they see a nice dark shadow to lurk in. Almost every other bug you're likely to be trying to kill is lower on the food chain than a spider, and more reliant on agility to escape predators, so they're likely much more used to trying to escape danger by running/flying around as fast as possible. My guess is that the idea of danger sense thing comes from one of the problems spiders *are* used to dealing with, which is something waaaay too big for them blundering into their web. The spider feels the vibrations in its web, knows something dangerous might be happening, and tries to hide before it can see what's coming - and, importantly, hopefully also before the whatever-it-is has seen the spider. Which could make it seem to be 'sensing' danger, especially since the thinnest threads of spider-webs can be *extremely* fine, so it can be very hard for humans to figure out how the spider knew there was possible danger.
@@hurricane1nox He sent a replay a while back to Lowko where it was basically him destroying someone in a long late game where it was completely one sided lol.
This game really features what I don't like about late game ZvT. Can infestors and vipers attack? No, it would be broken to have a spellcaster that can attack. Can ghosts attack? Of course! It would be silly if they couldn't. Can infestors use all their abilities while burrowed? No, that would be broken if a caster could use abilities while it can't be seen! Can ghosts use abilities while cloaked? Obviously, it wouldn't make sense otherwise. How does zerg detection work? Well you can fly a flimsy blob in that moves at medium speed after you upgrade it, or you can use fungal growth, from an even more flimsy blob, that uses up all your gas. How does terran detection work? Just scan, infinite range, wide area, any time you want. How is the damage from fungal growth? Well, it's there. How is the damage from snipe? Well, it's not that much, it takes two to kill an infestor, and two is a lot. Also it has more range than fungal growth, but at least it has a .5 second animation! And it's balanced, because it only works on biological units! How many zerg units are biological again? But it's okay, with good use of vipers, queens, and infestors, you can counter terran. As long as your spellcasters don't run out of energy ... which the ghost can deplete with EMP.
One the same page, I always found fascinating that both Protoss and Terran (early and without upgrade for T) have units with the capabilities of jumping walls when Zerg, who never walls, have none : that would be OP.
Can tell this is a Protoss player... Never attack concentrated Thor/Ghost--> EVER. Unless you can surround them. Reynor never surrounded... In fact Reynor had not harrassed anything for ~5-->10 minutes at this point, letting terran expand wherever they wanted and NEVER had to split his mech forces making them VULNERABLE to harassment. Did not even burrow a ling stopping expansion forcing Terran to waste a scan for ~250 minerals instead of a mule. I mean BASIC shit at the high level that you MUST do against Mech as Mech expanding is HARD. Reynor never started mining the Side bases as soon as he KNEW it was mech at ~7-->8min mark. You do this because MECH stinks as movement. Even if you lose them, it is still better as it means they are NOT hitting your front in concentrated form and you can harass the side of the attacking force! Reynor never moved in spors/sunkens to side bases makeing sure twin drop ships can't destroy his bases..... what happens he takes side bases LATE, and does not defend them--> They get smashed by 2 lousy drop ships costing Gumiho nothing, while allowing terran to be unharassed on entire right side of map. There is also NO creep on right or left side of map which does NOT allow Spores/Sunkens to WALK over there and protect side bases... Plenty of basic stuff Reynor never did. Game is OVER by time Harstem is doing the "ramp math" Brood Lords are only good if they attack from the side, as it means OTHER units can attack from front. Reynor was doing a Gumiho... using F2, no independent control groups for using Broodlords from side and instead head butted into 4 Thors instead of from the side with only~ 1 or 2 thors firing. How F'n DUMB can you be tactically? Yikes.
@@w8stral Yeah sure Reynor didn't think of this, that's why he didnt spent APM on it. I really like when D2 kinda players like You with 120 apm are criticising super high grandmasters. On your level kid, burrowing lings makes a difference, cause your opponents doesn't know burrow exists, on Reynor's level these kinda tricks doesnt worth the apm.
@@newlocal2 Way to prove you are an unthinking fool. These top players are not top players because they are good tactically. They are top players because their APM is high, and mouse micro control is excellent, not because their tactics are any good. Grow a brain, learn the difference. Reynor SUCKS tactically, always has.
Easily the clearest example of a submission being sent in by a ladder sucker. Reynor, you should've just played locally (like during a tournament) and cut his PC's power cable. EZ win. Can't believe this isn't the go-to strat in situations like this yet.
I never thought I'd see the day, but it happened. The Captain has admitted that a matchup is, in his mind, imbalanced. I am awaiting the fall of the stars in my fallout shelter as we speak!
"best case scenario is a losing fight" is the most real description of trying to fight mech as zerg. also insane that this super micro intensive force of broodlords, vipers infestors and roaches, is said to be whats needed versus an army that....can just stand still for the most part and fight optimally. maybe throw out some snipes but you dont even need them. and its still not enough.
Zerg is supposed to lose fights vs mech. The counter is that they can outexpand terran and instantly remax with a bank. If you only play deathball vs deathball then zerg isn't the race for you.
@@abyrvalg_ broods are too slow and also get out ranged by Thors… Whatever clowns are in charge of the balance need to be fired, pretty sure a group of literal clowns off the street would do a better job at this point.
I love how reynor is constantly microing his army in engagements and the terran just sits there on hold position and insta kills anything that comes near his army.
zerg players need to perfectly controll infestor viper broodlord: 2 very squishy spellcasters and 1 quite hard to use air unit, meanwhile terran can A move their thors in the right moments and only need to controll ghosts: cloaked and quite tanky stronger than anything spellcasters that 2 shot every unit the margin for error in these lategames is completely skewed
Yeah, that's what I am thinking since a long time. When I see Serral win everybody whines "Zerg imba". And then I rewatch the games and look at what Serral has to do to get the wins. Use tons of spellcasters, has to be in perfect position every single time with his queens. And the Terrans? Forget to raise depots - let lings wreak havoc. Don't bother to use Ravens. Don't bother with Sensor towers. Terrans seem often to ignore a lot of the tools they have in their arsenal. And they make a lot of unforced errors (supply depots...) - while Serral always uses everything he has and plays perfectly. And then Zerg is somehow supposed to be imba? Let me phrase it this way: If Serrals main was Terran and we would be playing on the exact same patch - Serral would not loose a single map. Ever. He could probably set the health of his units to 90% and still win every single game.
@@wedgeantilles8575 "Let me phrase it this way: If Serrals main was Terran and we would be playing on the exact same patch - Serral would not loose a single map. Ever. He could probably set the health of his units to 90% and still win every single game." He could not. While Serral is the best player ATM, make no misstake, he can only play as well as he plays because he is Zerg and can take advantage of Zerg's fantastic advantages to the max , unlike every other Pro Zerg. He is as consistent as he is because he gets close to perfect information, due to Creep and early overlord for scouting and as long as he makes queens he is more than fine in the early game.
@@xxhowisuxx scans are so much better than creep, its literally maphacks (creep can only see when they are in range, id say sensor towers are similar to creep in its function) except ofc the speedboost which is quite good, without it zerg can never defend anything
@@shadowpriest2574 Terran can get this info too. Terran has great scouting tools with Reaper or Hellions (which can harass at the same time). Terran has Scans + Sensor Towers. And Terran could build a raven to clear creep. If creep is so powerful (and creep IS powerful) - FOR GODS SAKE, build a single raven and invest the effort to reduce creep. That's my problem with Terrans: Terrans HAS all the tools. They just don't bother to use them because "too much effort". And just like Serral uses every single tool Zerg has (e.g. burrowed infestors all over the map - agains and again and again - until it got nerfed...), he would use every single tool Terran has.
Maybe a single tanky spellcaster with the damage of a normal unit, a point and click spell that instakill, a spell that counters every other spellcaster(in the area of impact) and deletes half of the healthbars of one of the 3 races and a spell that with a pretty cheap cost make them break any position is the real problem (oh they are invisibile)
@@jimhoxworth7462 even reducing their hp or making their cloak consume more energy would be good, if you compare them to templars they have so many things more
@@darkalley8595 Repent? Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? (That's Bible for 'mind your own business'.)
the one thing i hate about ultra late game tvz is the mule spam. terran can have 0 scvs and they get 3k minerals per minute. i feel like orbitals should have a cooldown on mules. it doesn’t effect early game and nerfs it in late game.
@@Spectification both T and P can insta remax with production and a bank? Z can't remax on Blord or lurker instantly. a symmetric balance - Z can't do anything T can't do (like have free units e.g. infewsted terran/swarmhosts) and T can get maphack, guaranteed mining, never worry about being supply blocked have the best army in the early, mid and late game.
@@kugeltmgZerg has tumors for map vision. Terrans have advantage* on detection though if you have many orbitals. It's the Protoss which has no equivalent for map vision. What they have is expensive and costs supply.
@@littlecoldhands P has spylons, halucs, and apparently some people even use stasis traps. Still by far the worst of the three, but there are a few options.
Balance idea, disclaimer below: Blinding cloud cancels snipe. How many times did we just watch the entire Terran army get blinded but (thanks only to snipe) still put out more damage than the Zerg? That isn't right. EMP can still counter it, but if the Terran is caught with their pants down they actually lose a fight decisively for once. Disclaimer: Not an active player (Zerg main, peaked at D1 around 2020)
@@ko71k52 Eh, fungal disabling spellcasts might make infestors a bit too strong imo. It would be effective on bringing ghosts down to the right level, but infestors are already a very good unit. The change needs to be to the problem unit: the ghost.
i think this episode is really important for starcraft. a protoss player, a third party observer, judges a matchup between TvZ imbalanced. I think he took long enough to explain the issues with the matchup, gave an actual respectful number of options for both sides, and came to a genuinely insightful decision. Jokes aside with the end bit, I think that this is exactly what I would have wanted from the first Imba determination in the series
I've been waiting to see what would happen when another pro sent in a replay, I'm really curious to see how Harstem critiques a replay from someone better than him with presumably only very small errors. Edit: Oh it was actually imbalanced, I guess that explains it
He has done it before. He still smashes them like in the regular videos just for smaller in-between things so he curses at that mistake for longer to pad for time until the next mistake. He is actually unbiased on his bias to put dow... I mean, put people in their right place. I actually love Hamster.
this game illustrates perfectly how crazy good serral is. like zerg really is going to lose if it's a straight up contest, but serral always manages to find ways to bait his opponent, trap his opponent, surprise his opponent, checkmate his opponent. serral is winning because he's serral, not because he's zerg. and the fuckers on the balance council need to someday figure that out. but they won't, they'll keep nerfing until no other zerg can win and he eventually retires.
Happens a lot in competitive games. You have a player/players that out skills the rest by such a large margin that the devs can't really figure out how to balance the game anymore. And end up making it incredibly unfun for the regular players because they're nowhere close to their skill level.
It kind of reminds me of game 5 from the semifinals of dreamhack at Dallas from just like a month ago or so. Series was tied 2-2, and oliviera had a really strong sieged up position outside of Serral's third base - Serral made the perfectly calculated decision to break off about like 25 lings from his defense and go fight reinforcements that were on the way to that position. He was catching troops that were being rallied across the map, he was cutting off reinforcements from the main base and he was buying time until his upgrades and research finished and then he was able to actually deal with the problem. Without this move it was looking like another timing push that would beat him which already had happened two maps
@@comestible6270 I'm not at blizzard, but there's probably only a few people working on sc2, and most of them are most likely just server maintainers that don't exclusively maintain sc2.
They're actually is not even an intern. What Microsoft/Activision/Blizzard does is temporarily rotate one developer over from another team to push things like Map pool changes or a community patch that has been already worked on by the balance council. This happens once every several months. There is actually no one actively working on it, not even an intern. At least... this is what someone I know who works at Blizzard told me, and I'm afraid he was not joking. For example the past couple of maintenances that they've pushed through have broken the free co-op heroes down to just level five so they had to push through another update to unbreak that. So they have like one guy go fix that problem and then he's back to working on whatever it is (CoD, Diablo 4, OW2, whatever)
Next Patch note: "Terran: Ghost: range increased by 4 snipe: removed energy cost, cooldown reduced to 0s life increased by 100 Ghost Academy: Personal Cloaking research removed Permanent Cloaking research added (50/50, 60s): Permanent Cloaking: Your ghost are permanently cloaked. Cloaking doesn't cost energy We felt that the ghost was too weak a unit, and should be able, alone, to single-handedly stop any brood-lord push coming the Terran way Zerg: Brood-lord: brood-ling do not benefit from melee upgrades anymore. Range reduced to 7 We want to encourage more diverse unit composition for the Zergs"
Just make it so snipe doesn’t apply to colossal units, it doesn’t make sense anyway. Terran already has hard counters to both the tier 3 colossal Zerg units, let ghosts be the anti-casters they’re supposed to be. Presently they counter literally ALL Zerg comps
Nah thatd make ghosts useless. You dont make ghosts to counter roach/rav. You can do that with marine marauder. You make ghosts to counter zerg spellcasters, and tanky units.
Yep thors are super strong . And mindcontroll as infestor is stupid becouse infestor is auto focused after using that skill (yes infestor get higher priority. what few people know)
I saw that game on the stream, it was so soothing to see Raynor fail to the same stuff I lost that day multiple times while chat was flexing with their backseat gaming skills. Still there is nuance where skill is to make right decisions to lead game onto track that it does not end up like that. Skill to predict, which is pretty much impossible. That's the imbalance of this game - predicting what' s going to happen. If we could do that we would be playing this game with map hack. And that's the key - something that one can not balance.
I can agree that mass-scans is pretty strong, it helps terran for engage tactics and reveal burrowed units for a cost of 150 as upgrade of a cc, while zerg has to constantly morph overseers with a gas cost.. just to be sniped by ghosts or thors while engaging, or spam fungal to uncloak ghosts. I'm not saying terran is imba, but that the power of scans helped terran A LOT in this match.
Isnt future a protoss? Or was that future a terran? Cause I think there are 2 futures, one protoss and one terran. Not sure what race that future is tho
So is Kelazhur but I think that was the point. So Harstem doesn't have to put the imbalanced stamp on it. Notice how he kept saying "unbiased". It's satire
@@trueskyte imba stamp animation doesn't exist, it costs too much to animate and because harstem's too cheap, he'd rather just say there's no such thing
@@hivetech4903 banshee just didn't let reynor snowball his economy and army but, as harstem said, gumiho not pushing kinda nullified that advantage, the problem for reynor is that every fight he took late,no matter how bad gumiho played it, was a loss, even if gumiho walks up a ramp with fungal and blinding clouds over him
@@hivetech4903 That would have been relevant if Gumiho pushed in like 2 minutes after the banshees. But he did not. He waited quite some time before getting to it and at that point, a loss of 16 drones is nothing to a zerg. Reynor had a significant bank for quite some time and they were fighting while both maxed. It is clearly imba, because there is no way for a zerg to win if the PvT enters the super late game with the players being about equal. Either the zerg wins before the terran maxes out on his composition or he loses. That is just stupid. Even if Reynor had more bases, the moment Gumiho had his thor ghost hellbat setup, there was no way for Reynor to defend his bases or trade efficiently. Meaning there was no way he could lose.
Minute 20: Terran has 91 supply in workers despite the mule advantage/infinite orbitals and is still dominating all the fights. Maybe the ghost needs to be nerved/brutes buffed? More supply per ghosts or slower energy production. Also ghosts are supposed to be squishy but fungals dont do anything to them.
Only 1 upgrade on broodlings really makes a difference. With 3 armor upgraded Thors they only deal 1 damage per attack. So this missed upgrade really matters. Also flying carapace is completely useless vs Thor + Ghost. Ghosts are definetely imbalanced though.
Theoretically, you can suggest plenty of things that Reynor could have done, but the issue never has been that zerg have no options, it's that the options take literal GOAT level players to pull off against any donkey that can a-move. This applies to ZvP also.
This does NOT apply to ZvP. Protoss also has to actually use their brain and hands to fight an effective Zerg army. And notably, it doesn't take GOAT levels to win against a Terran that is only using a-move, unless they're also on a ridiculous level. It just takes being at a level where both can be expected to micro effectively. Reynor isn't the GOAT, for example, but he still beats almost every Terran player out there.
I've always thought the ghost was over powered. It shouldn't be the counter to everything. Give the EMP to the Raven like the science vessel in SC1, and maybe have the snipe ability do percentage of health so there is diminishing returns.
Can you imagine that in TvP? P would be even more screwed up with mid game pushes. Btw, as long as EMP deals infinite damage to shields, it wont matter even if we double the Ghost's cost. At last the EMP doesnt cover half of the map anymore.
@tomasotomato Yeah I guess I don't play Terran or Protoss. Maybe make the emp do percentage based damage / energy reduction too. I just don't like ghosts. Pretty tanky, counters everything, and has an auto attack for A-click... which the HTs getting a water balloon attack also kinda irritated me. All casters should have a weak auto attack or none of them.
Serral-Oliveira in Dallas was a good example, every zerg that tournament got dominated by Oliveira and his ghosts. So Serral just adjusts and plays almost exclusively ling/bane/ravager just to avoid/neutralize 1 single unit that can take out tier3 units in a single snipe. Ghosts need a massive nerf.
Next Patch note: "Terran: Ghost: range increased by 4 snipe: removed energy cost, cooldown reduced to 0s life increased by 100 Ghost Academy: Personal Cloaking research removed Permanent Cloaking research added (50/50, 60s): Permanent Cloaking: Your ghost are permanently cloaked. Cloaking doesn't cost energy We felt that the ghost was too weak a unit, and should be able, alone, to single-handedly stop any brood-lord push coming the Terran way Zerg: Brood-lord: brood-ling do not benefit from melee upgrades anymore. Range reduced to 7 We want to encourage more diverse unit composition for Zerg players"
The power imbalance between Thors and Brood Lords is the direct result of the balance council's meddling. Broods were stronger prior to the rework that made them better at kiting and worse at straight up fights-- which NOBODY ASKED FOR, just like the cyclone changes, it was somebody on the balance council playing mad scientist, and screwing up something that didn't need to be changed.
Thoughts at 17:00 - without any melee upgrades, are the broodlings able to do _any_ real damage against units with +3 armor? Their attack does only 4 base damage
Most of the broodlords damage comes from the direct attack, not from broodlings, especially when it comes to sniping thors. The broodlords had +3 flyer attacks.
100%. Ghosts are a disgusting unit. They need a movement speed reduction and a Snipe cast time increase at minimum. They could also use a slight DPS nerf.
problem with zerg is there's absolutely no counter to ghost, while infestors have been nerfed to the ground years ago. Infestors need another tool than the crap they've been given.
Ghost the answer for all terran problems... Annoyed by lurkers or ultra's? Snipe them? Is a Vyper or Infestor given you problems? EMP the shit out of them? Protoss has units? How about just remove half of it HP with one EMP...
Somehow Infestors get nerfed over and over ... but Ghosts are perfectly balanced. meanwhile.. it took years for the change to make the infestor start with enough energy to do 'ANYTHING' 😂
I was even thinking that maybe hydra/lurker/viper could have been better than BL/Infestor/viper here, but it's even more immobile, still vulnerable to snipes, and liberators. I think they went too far with the fungal nerf and banelings speed upgrade hp nerf, not that they were relevant in this game.
@@chloesmith4065 Hydra lurkker is actually more mobile, you can place few nyduses and be absolutly fine, especially with such awesome creep as Reynor has. Problem is, Lurkers arent that good against thors, especially when oppponent knows how to use scan and focus them. And Hydra just dies to a-move Hellions. Gumiho made really great plays in regards of creating such beutifull compasition. My idea is using Swarmhosts for poukes into enemy army with occasional snipes of thor or two. It would have allowed to keep your grades going and be mobile with nyduses. But maybe that way too taxing for apm or other stuff. Glad i watched this game because i would never get to this ocnclusion on my games.
@@expepem189xl3 Reynor apm is legendary. Problems with swarm hosts are: 1. Time to reload 2. Sucks on defense 3. Needs first hit to be big Problem with ghosts 1. Costs a lot of resources
Raynor’s observer control had him throwing them away every fight. Yeah it could’ve been intentional as a damage sponge but it’s his fault if he didn’t have vision. Plus I don’t think Raynor was ever unaware of where gumiho was, so I don’t think the vision difference is imbalanced, just a benefit.
@@OurayTheOwl Yes it's a damage sponge. you need it because the thors outrange the brood lords. Which was an extremely unpopular balance change a few years ago. BL has been nerfed into oblivion. Zerg needs a way to get real units close to swarm and surround but has no unit that fills this role in ultra late game. Need like a T3 upgrade for roaches giving them adaptive plating at lower HP
@@JackDeHearts this isn’t a joke but what about spore crawlers in this matchup? I know they can be out maneuvered and countered by the same units and are just bad, but they do out range everything. I don’t remember spore crawlers ever being oppressive so why not buff them?
@@OurayTheOwl Well, as a moving structure that defends itself and doesn't contribute towards army supply, if you buffed spore crawlers with the intention of making late game TvZ more viable for zerg you'd end up causing far more stalemates than victories. It wouldn't be _oppressive_, just a really annoying way to unnecessarily draw out games longer than they should go. That said, though, I don't think air control was his problem this game, only thing the spores helped to do was zone out the liberators. I know he took a lot of damage from the 2 banshee push, but he never built spores to defend against it to begin with.
I'm surprised Harstem disregarded the map in his final response. A huge reason why Reynor struggled is because this map is hard for Zerg to hold bases on. Harstem pointed that out several times himself during the video.
I think that in theory, Zerg has ways to shut Terran down before the ultra late-game army really gets rolling. But the game is played by flawed humans, and the Zerg gameplan is way harder to execute. And I think the game would be better if there wasn't such a large gap.
I mean, "winning before endgame" isn't exactly something that it should be okay to expect from an entire third of your playerbase. That actually strictly means that an equally skilled Terran will beat Zerg because they can fight just as well, and therefore survive to late game.
Omg the Lorimbo part was the cherry on top, I loved this one. I would love to know if there was an alternative to what Reynor played, like a follow-up video, or is this just a situation where you don't want to get as zerg? Brilliant video, I loved the analysis as always, and I didn't even realise that there was basically no roasting of the players LOL! Epic!
Erm raynor doing the correct response , right units and everything, plus maxxed out armies, but still would be unable to win a fight seems like the definition of imba to me.
yea there isnt realy a debate to be had about this, late game T is to powerful, they have so many advantages, most of thier units can attack both air/ground, all units can fly/heal, infinite scans and mules.
I see. So if Terran allows Zerg to drone and loses because Zerg swarm snowballs that's just game/race mechanics and T should have contained Z by doing damage. But when Z allows Terran to build so many Orbitals that Terran can reduce worker count and increase late game army by 20-30 supply - then T is imba.
@@dawislv The difference is that both races can compete early game, but ultra late it's just over in favor of one race (assuming played at a high skill level).
@@dawislv u mean serall XD . I saw statistic (at screen during some turnaments) and actually only serral have much bigger win rate vs P and T (something like 91% ) and then 2 zerg has only 64 % . (and top terran have something 65 % vs Z , P )
@@piotroszczyk7197 not really. Serall for sure is great player, but one player cannot influence statistics so significantly simply because he cannot in the same tournament take 1st, 2nd and 3rd spot. Zerg at top level is favored and statistics have shown it for years.
this makes me appreciate what serral is able to do even more because yes, it certainly looked like reynor solidly outplayed his opponent this game but still lost
I dont think zerg have ever taken equal fights and never were meant to, that is why they build bases faster and are the swarm. It's a structural choice behind the concept of the race itself. . To change it would require changing so much of zerg, it won't even be zerg anymore, it would just be terran or protoss with a zerg skin hehe.
@@Jez4prez1 Good point, but how can you be the swarm when the Terran can more easily maintain an overwhelming economy with a huge army? Mules economy + orbitals floating whenever in danger....
@@firestarter000001 Zerg float in late game also, all the races do, the Terran equivalent is to spend the float into orbitals, while Zerg instead can have upto 10k (I've seen much higher, if you add minerals and gas) in resources in ultra late game. The worker count becomes increasingly irrelevant for all races in late game, since they're usually only mining from 2 and a half bases or less anyhow. Zerg still has the advantage of quick remaxes in ultra late game. There is still the swarm element. Anyhow, I'm not here to provide answers or fixes on what new patches should be (or to complain about imba or nerfs/buffs etc). I don't' think the answer is to always just patch everything, or to rely too heavily on patches. I think the last few patches have been very poor to be honest (and that there have been some real bad patches in the past). My preference would be more responsibility should be on the players to come up with new innovations in gameplay (see Dark vs Maru in the recent GSL final, and Dark did just that, amazing). I think map-pools also play a major / over-sized role in balance also. I actually think the unit / race balance was in a real good spot like 2ish + years ago (or thereabouts, don't remember the exact time, but I think it was definitely much better then than present, both to play and to watch, but that is just imo).
I've been watching this series and I believe this was the best video with the most promising ending. But I believe that Terran was O.P., but I also believe that maybe Nydus would help on mobility for the Zerg. Reynor could use cracklings to destroy base structures while being attacked massively by Thors. This forces Terran to go back. Terran hadn't any unit composition for zerglings, mainly focused on counter attack Corruptors and Brood Lords.
Zerg late game has been nerfed for 10+ years now - everyone was terrified of the "400/200" army advantage that hasn't existed since T+P realised they were allowed to build more than 4 production buildings. So Zergs trade cost in-effeciently and try to take more bases, usually using Lurkers or Nydus to gut enemy production. They can never fight any maxed out enemy in high-tech late game scenarios.
Maybe ghosts need a disadvantage? In the lore they're supposed to be rare, an army of Marines with a ghost operative, not an army of ghosts. What if they were classified as light like marines so they actually have to fear banelings? That said, the ghosts were quite bobbed this game and I was waiting for neural -> EMP the blob which never happened.
Infestor is auto focused . YES if infestor use mindcontrol infestor get higher attack priority. (this is probably reason why terran use 2 liberators becous now if infestor neural thor they will die in 1 s )
I think Reynor didn't build enough vipers, with 4 vipers instead of 2 he would have had way mroe control with the blinding clouds. The infestor force is nice, but you don't really need more then about 8 for fungels and the extra vipers would have gotton way mroe added value, where he can pull out decently many thors to thin out the army and overrrun the rest with his broodlords
Honestly I wish we could have heard a quick summary of _why_ the decision at the end turned out to be what it was. The best part about IODIS in lower level play is the way it highlights the specific mistakes each player made so the rest of the community can learn and grow from those mistakes in their own games. (Last half of this comment is a spoiler for the end, you have been warned!) The way they ended it with "nah just git gud lmao" felt like a cop out more than an expert analysis. I'm sure they had reasons why, but since they never voiced those reasons, it kinda feels like it defeated the whole point, y'know? At that point, anyone with the credibility of being a pro currently can say whatever they want. Dark might as well come back and say "Nah they're wrong, we should definitely buff zerg, I'd love that" or "Actually the most imba race in TvZ is Protoss, they need a nerf." Without them pointing to evidence or reasoning that counters what you expressed throughout the video, it's just a claim, and nothing is really gained from it being tossed out there. I know, I know, it was mostly meant to just be a bit, lol. Maybe I took it all too seriously. But I was genuinely really curious to hear what they had to say about the game and the matchup overall.
It’s broken and I’m not sure there’s a way to fix it. Obviously they’re all trolling for the video. the Terran units here are simply better and Zerg no longer has economy or production advantage and there’s no tech to rotate to either. Mules will mean Terran can have a larger army supply and maintain 2-4 mineral lines + 8-10 gas easy. All of this is indicative of LotV being too fast imo. If you watch serral has been trying to circumvent Terran late game too. But it’s hard when economies explode there isn’t really much of a mid game…
Yeah! I wish an in-depth explanation would've been given. The only thing I could say is don't lose as much overlords in the beginning, be better prepared with spores against banshees and then you would have more resources for an early attack or earlier upgrades. but that's almost the same as saying "play better" because in the end both players had maxed supply and good composition, Raynor even had more army at times.
The end was a bit to replace Harstem's flaming on lower rank submissions, which was half the entertainment of this IODIS series, and the learning part ultimately hinged till now on Harstem's knowledge/analysis, which did comprised the main breadth/duration of this video. So, I'm content with Harstem's explanation (even with his own bias). Expecting the others to give serious takes is a bit gratuitous / would need popular demand to transform this series into high level pro discussion on Harstem or the other pros.
There's a lot to be said but the vid was probably long enough. It would be cool to have like a follow up 5 player podcast kind of thing discussing the state of the koprulu sector
I think you guys forget that although Terran is incredibly over powered in game the player has a massive mental disability that prevents them from utilising that power. So, it really is balanced after all :)!
@@srigen1026 Man you got mad. Well i am just more of zerg player, and when i complain about tosses or terrans, i build stuff and do stuff that i complain about, get disquastingly easy win, and go back to my race. Its about not feeling helpless in situation, not about "Pls i want free wins" Broodlords need some rework or something, as t3 unit in mech game, or maybe ultra. Because not being able to play t3 against players with t3 is strange.
@@srigen1026 My man, if you know how this isnt imbalance, explain how to counter it. Clearly this comp is impossible to play against mech. Weell its possible and if grades would be on time, that would be more decent and smooth game, where Reynor would have higher chance. But Having to play 3x apm and not make mistakes against player who constantly does them, is kinda looking wrong.However as a Zerg player i can understand that this is beautifull balance of RockPapperScisorss , just cant think of 2 compositions to beat that shit. Yeah its fair and square about the lower rating people when i switch race, but its about understanding weakneses and bottom rocks of the annoying strat. With mech, Zerg or protoss cant understand where is it. Check army costs. Gumiho army costs only 75% of Reynor army, and that 25 % in GAS holy. That sounds ridiculos! And its not even that hard to execute. Tank there tank here, a move your dudes, and focus on Emp and eco. Explain weakneses and how to deal with it.
@@srigen1026Well yeah lurkers might work at much lower rating. But man, you sound like ai, havent you seen what Reynor were doing? He only fighted in a Blinding cloud+fungal combo, my man was doing his best with spells, that the only reasone why he was even alive for so long, because he used spells and caught his opponent all the time. Problem is. It still didnt work. You saw the game. Only idea i had, is swarm hosts. Lurkers are quite expensive as well, its ok to get +400 resourses lead and go back for few snipes. Can you tell me the weak spots of TERRAN SIDE here?
@@srigen1026 Bro what are you yapping about, Reynor used clouds and fungal, yonked dudes too, i can outplay this comp same way, but its still unfair. Yet you seeing this video claiming that thats the play? I asked you about specifical weakness of this comp. Of course everyone is weak against spells. Like just Storm or Emp this comp and you win, lol. huh actually that gived me idea, just use parasite on ghost and emp others. thanks.
i think the play is hold fire lurkers to snipe the ghosts and other small support units that are protecting the thors from the broodlings preventing them from locking the thors in place the terran scans ahead of their army, they never scan the retreat path assuming nothing has moved in behind them the issue is not getting the lurkers spotted while moving them to their ambush position but given the terran would generally scan the middle and not the sides of the map there are path options to swing a small group of lurkers into a position behind the attacking terran army and use hold fire to prevent them from giving away their position tell you tell them to fire or the random terran scan catches them
We all know whats the problem: if they buff Zerg and the closest to perfect Zerg player comes backs from his military service... he would sweep all up, or lose against another zerg.
Zerg is very underpowered and needs a buff in order for non-gods to have a chance at winning. But yea they won't do it because Serral literally would never lose again and they'd lose all their viewers. So it's a lose-lose - either the game is balanced and nobody watches pros (they wouldn't do this because hardly anyone plays the game anyway lol) or the game is imbalanced and everybody below pros will slowly stop playing the game.
I think the only way to nerf terran or buff Zerg is if serral decides to switch to terran and starts annihilating everyone. If it happens he can always switch back to Zerg 😂
Not gonna type a 8000 word comment. Just gonna say this - the best protest everyone who thinks terran is imba could do, is to play terran. Let there be no zerg, no toss. Only terran vs terran. Then we shall see how these smug faces change, when there's no meat to the grinder, when there's no easy-to-defeat races around. Just the perfectly flawless amazingly imbalanced overpowered godlike terran, like Blizz intended to create. The perfect stimpack/medivac style, the impossible to be defeated mech map hack all around moving mighty terran. Just terran vs terran vs fucking terran vs terran vs > until everyone's eyes bleed out of envy and disgust beholding deities fighting each other and no one complaining anymore. I repeat - best strategy to anally defile, no lube, these terran players who think terran is balanced and equal to toss and zerg, is to have all great toss and zerg players start playing terran. 24/7! At all competitions. Everywhere. As far as eyes can see, only terran. Let's see then how fun it becomes to them. Much love! ❤ P.S.: Reynor is a much better player than Gumiho. (that's just my opinion) His race lost, not him. If Reynor could play terran as well as he plays zerg, Gumiho won't win more than 2 out of 10 vs him. Same goes to you, Harstem. Start playing terran to match how well you play toss, and you'll just destroy a lot of players who now think they're better than you just because their race wins for them...
@@chloesmith4065 If Blizzard didn't nerg Terran to compensate, I'm sure it would. The trick is that their balance teams would likely nerf T to encourage people to play other races. Statistics is the thing that most companies' teams track with regards to balance decisions.
Seeing how Gumiho always pulls his whole army back just to deal with a few zerglings harassing his mineral line or in his main base, I do wonder why wasn't one of the most imba strategy used? Plonk a few nydus worms around and ling/roach flood the place. The Thors is not mobile enough to react. Only Ghosts and helions will be fast enough, and that will take a chunk out of the main army. At least that is what I observe from pro matches. from a casual observer
That T composition is pretty insane. You just cant get near it and its game over for any Z if you let it get to that. Reynor didnt have a chance at any moment once it hit late game. It was over long before he GG'd. Its imba for sure.
One thing I think everyone misses, is how thors are used against BLs. When a clumped BL army goes from 18 BLs to 13, it visually looks like Reynor took zero damage... especially when the commentary is focused on thors getting fungaled (which has a large visual effect, but is actually no damage). Gumiho was also entering the late game light-years ahead. I think he was 6base and 12 orbitals before Reynor got 1-1 upgrades.
I agree. Terran is Imba. I'm protoss and vs. Marines, marauder, ghost, medivac, about 12 Liberators, and some four thanks. In 3 upgrades + GOOD MICRO, are almost invincible
34:07 to 34:17 is a great example of ghosts being OP. They can get healed instantly and cloak whenever. They can serve as infanty and spellcaster. Only one spellcaster unit needed for everything. Nukes are fun for viewers but not necessary in the game at all. On top of that Terrans can swap workers for energy, vision for energy, heal/repair any unit, move bases, get built in static defense... Come on. It's even worse in TvP with EMPs. Yes i suck at the game but i like watching pros. If not for Serral's insane skills the major tournaments would have been pointless to watch for a while now. Not fixing the balance undermines the legitimatecy of the game and will eventually drive away viewers, IMO. End rant 😊
So the truth we've always known has been revealed. Terran's Orbitals are the true IMBA on the game. Infinite scans, free/no supply scvs on acid falling from the sky, but Activision errr I mean Blizzard doesn't care anymore of the game
![[ENG] 2024 GSL S2 Ro.16 Group D 「Full VOD」](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CrB_cC0dMaY/mqdefault.jpg)
Big shoutout to the star of the show Lorimbo.
Check his stuff out at youtube.com/@allthingsrealtime
Reynor should appeal to Caesar... I mean Serral.
I feel like the Ghost is too well rounded and versatile. No other caster is built in numbers nearing 20 and kept at the front of the fighting army.
Their DPS is much higher than other casters. No other caster attacks air and ground with it's default attack. Many don't even have a default attack at all, the ones that do - like High Templar... their default attack doesn't contribute meaningfully to fights. You can see this on display in Uthermal's Ghost Rush to Grandmaster series. The ghost is so good at combat you can all in with an all caster strategy. Is there any other caster in the game as viable to do that with?
The ghost can also move faster than other ground casters. Compare this with how handicapped the high templar is by it's movement speed, to the point where it is juggled in prisms to compensate. The ghost can stay at the front, and escape quickly, or cloak fight well during engagements, extending it's usefulness beyond the role of support unit. On top of this the ghost spells are the highest range of all casters, which combined with high movement speed makes them easier to use.
So the ghost is too well rounded with no drawbacks. They move too fast, and fight too well by default. This is why Gumiho feels safe building nearly 20 of them and keeping them at the very front of his fighting army. Any other caster built in these numbers would make an army vulnerable - hence we never see 20 ravens, 20 vipers/high templar/infestors etc leading the army.
I think the ghost should move slower. The ghosts default attack should have similar damage output to the High Templar and only target ground (the big rifle is for the snipe, in close combat a sniper pulls their sidearm right?). These changes alone would create more penalty for building 20 of them, and keeping them out front. Their use would need to be more considered and tactical.
I also think that Steady Targeting is too useful in too many situations. The ghost is meant to be a counter to other casters, hence the bonus damage to psionic units (130 +40). This focus could be enhanced by leaning into this bonus and making the damage say 105 (+65) meaning it takes one extra snipe to take out a Broodlord or Ultra.
These kinds of tweaks push the ghost more to a specialist unit that needs to be incorporated with consideration rather than built en-masse due to it's versaitility.
If you made it through wall of text you now have an honorary degree from UA-cam University. Carpe Diem.
Man split screen makes these videos easier to comprehend.
An Idea: give this situation to Serral and show what he would do.
The Best IMBA video!
ChatGPT: "Players like uThermal and Lorimbo are known for their analytical skills and clear communication of complex game mechanics."
Lorimbo: *incomprehensible italian rage seizure*
Its just partially on zerg language so we can understand it all.
As Zerg, he should have just mind controlled a scv and built himself terran units.
This actually is funny 😅
That strategy actually worked for Protoss in SC1 because 400 supply limit after mind control. And it can work against Protoss in SC2 because you only need to start a building and it will finish without a probe mind controlled.
Too expensive and too tedious. It's only theoretical. Applicability is zero. (not to mention limited range of the mind control and you HAVE to research it first and YOU HAVE TO RESEARCH BURROW TO MAKE INFESTORS EVEN WORK, very weak infestors (very low HP), as a terran you can just scan and destroy the infestors quite easily using any unit). Your infestor also need to be there all the time until the SCV finishes building. By the time it would finish, the infested scv is already gone.
the play was hold fire lurkers to snipe the ghosts when they where running away from the broodlords
you only need like 2 to wipe out bio armies that do not know the lurkers are under them
yes he has scans
did you see how he used them
ahead of his army, never in the retreat and always in the middle of the map to check for the zerg broodlords since he knew they had to be their if they wanted to get anywhere on the map
just 2 lurkers flanking and hold fire after the terran retreated to regroup could have changed the game by wiping out the ghosts letting the broodlords do their thing and wiping out the thors
we watched a sane man go insane, he slammed his comp against the terran comp expecting a different result only to find the same one over and over again
@@ShelbySigouinYou're kinda right. Reynor made tons of mistakes and he allowed his opponent to reach an ultra late game army while he was still on roaches.
Hilarious that uthermal put out a game today where he beats a 6.6k mmr zerg by 'just A moving thors across the map'
wrg
Actually that was 6.1 zerg, and that barcode was Nikich, you can look for him on liquipedia if u want, he's semi-pro I'd say, not full-time progamer
I cringed when I saw uthermal's face
He's so awful.
That's what you sounded like "So funny how surgeons perform heart surgery by just cutting a bunch of flesh and earn more money than I do."
Literally the best episode yet. The ending was great. Wish Serral had input tho
Serral would explain how easily you can beat such composition with just 500 apm, 4 hands and reflexes of a spider - without using a mouse.
@@tomasotomatoThe problem here is that Reynor is equally fast IF NOT faster than Serral. Don't think the problem here is speed.
@@tomasotomatoI always wondered about the spider reflexes and the "sense of danger" as it portraied in spiderman movies and comics (or serrals gameplay)
Spiders are probably the easiest critters to kill in the household. You can hit them fast, slow, full hand or just a finger. Doesnt matter, they barely move away.
Even if you dont want to kill but catch them with like a glass or something they'll likely die because they will run under the rim in the exact wrong moment.
Spideysense seems nonexistent.
@@keizan5132Serral has 10x IQ advatage over Reynor thou.
@@LordDarkwater TLDR: Their reflexes aren't slow, they're just completely wrong for the situation. Like Serral trying to play Elden Ring.
(I am now going to be extremely embarrassed when it turns out Serral is also secretly LetMeSoloHim.)
Spiders have fairly weak eyesight (especially for something with so many eyes) and extremely primitive 'brains' (they aren't even real brains tbh) that are mostly dedicated to catching prey, not escaping danger. Even when they *are* in danger, running is not their go-to move because most spider-predators are much faster than spiders. Like, they'll do it if they have to, but they'd much prefer to hide somewhere dark and cramped where hopefully their usually much larger predators won't be able to reach them.
You may see the issue here. My understanding is that not only do they not register that the sudden shadow might indicate something bad is about to happen to them, but they actually think dark, shady areas are good for web-building and safe from potential predators, and so they think it's a *good* sign when everything goes dark. They'll run under the rim because they see a nice dark shadow to lurk in.
Almost every other bug you're likely to be trying to kill is lower on the food chain than a spider, and more reliant on agility to escape predators, so they're likely much more used to trying to escape danger by running/flying around as fast as possible.
My guess is that the idea of danger sense thing comes from one of the problems spiders *are* used to dealing with, which is something waaaay too big for them blundering into their web. The spider feels the vibrations in its web, knows something dangerous might be happening, and tries to hide before it can see what's coming - and, importantly, hopefully also before the whatever-it-is has seen the spider. Which could make it seem to be 'sensing' danger, especially since the thinnest threads of spider-webs can be *extremely* fine, so it can be very hard for humans to figure out how the spider knew there was possible danger.
The form was not stamped, so Reynor does not officially suck.
Haha, smart! I didnt even think of that :D
They can't stamp the form if you don't send the form :)
It's in the thumbnail though.
that's just Harstem passively resisting the decision
Now i'm hyped for Serral's eventual submission
in a serrel win lol as he loses a couple drones
@@hurricane1nox He sent a replay a while back to Lowko where it was basically him destroying someone in a long late game where it was completely one sided lol.
Serral is OP. Zerg is fine.
@@JohnHenryJones-u1r link?
wrrr
Oh no Harstem trying to do a Lowko warcrime which is using math when live watching something.
What's the timer on that?
@@manthe3711 about 21:27
I love that he kept it in there. Waaaaay too funny. Don't do math on stream! Don't do meth either.
Protoss player trying to use his brain, you won't believe what happens next! (he messes it up)
By far the funniest part is that Hamster has already summed up the losses by the time Counting with Harstem even begins
This game really features what I don't like about late game ZvT.
Can infestors and vipers attack? No, it would be broken to have a spellcaster that can attack. Can ghosts attack? Of course! It would be silly if they couldn't.
Can infestors use all their abilities while burrowed? No, that would be broken if a caster could use abilities while it can't be seen! Can ghosts use abilities while cloaked? Obviously, it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
How does zerg detection work? Well you can fly a flimsy blob in that moves at medium speed after you upgrade it, or you can use fungal growth, from an even more flimsy blob, that uses up all your gas. How does terran detection work? Just scan, infinite range, wide area, any time you want.
How is the damage from fungal growth? Well, it's there. How is the damage from snipe? Well, it's not that much, it takes two to kill an infestor, and two is a lot. Also it has more range than fungal growth, but at least it has a .5 second animation! And it's balanced, because it only works on biological units! How many zerg units are biological again?
But it's okay, with good use of vipers, queens, and infestors, you can counter terran. As long as your spellcasters don't run out of energy ... which the ghost can deplete with EMP.
Underrated comment!
Snipe one shots infestors. EMP is an insane spell. Casters get rekt. Toss army? Lose up to half your HP.
@@Fimbu1vetr Oh it is one shot? You know, that was what I thought, but I figured I should fact check myself, and I guess the internet lied to me.
One the same page, I always found fascinating that both Protoss and Terran (early and without upgrade for T) have units with the capabilities of jumping walls when Zerg, who never walls, have none : that would be OP.
@@vonk5463 about time we get a jumpy zergling upgrade
Rofl, I absolutly love the race icon of Gumiho, the "not a donkey" sign :D
Great job Hamster!!
That was my favorite part too!
I think harstem perfectly encapsulated this struggle between gumiho and Reynor when he tried to calculate the difference between 20.2 and 18.5
Can tell this is a Protoss player... Never attack concentrated Thor/Ghost--> EVER. Unless you can surround them. Reynor never surrounded... In fact Reynor had not harrassed anything for ~5-->10 minutes at this point, letting terran expand wherever they wanted and NEVER had to split his mech forces making them VULNERABLE to harassment. Did not even burrow a ling stopping expansion forcing Terran to waste a scan for ~250 minerals instead of a mule. I mean BASIC shit at the high level that you MUST do against Mech as Mech expanding is HARD. Reynor never started mining the Side bases as soon as he KNEW it was mech at ~7-->8min mark. You do this because MECH stinks as movement. Even if you lose them, it is still better as it means they are NOT hitting your front in concentrated form and you can harass the side of the attacking force! Reynor never moved in spors/sunkens to side bases makeing sure twin drop ships can't destroy his bases..... what happens he takes side bases LATE, and does not defend them--> They get smashed by 2 lousy drop ships costing Gumiho nothing, while allowing terran to be unharassed on entire right side of map. There is also NO creep on right or left side of map which does NOT allow Spores/Sunkens to WALK over there and protect side bases...
Plenty of basic stuff Reynor never did. Game is OVER by time Harstem is doing the "ramp math" Brood Lords are only good if they attack from the side, as it means OTHER units can attack from front. Reynor was doing a Gumiho... using F2, no independent control groups for using Broodlords from side and instead head butted into 4 Thors instead of from the side with only~ 1 or 2 thors firing. How F'n DUMB can you be tactically? Yikes.
@@w8stralbro I’d like to see you play a thousand games against Reynor and win one
@@wking4699 Bro: Fool, this is basic elementary tactics.
@@w8stral Yeah sure Reynor didn't think of this, that's why he didnt spent APM on it. I really like when D2 kinda players like You with 120 apm are criticising super high grandmasters. On your level kid, burrowing lings makes a difference, cause your opponents doesn't know burrow exists, on Reynor's level these kinda tricks doesnt worth the apm.
@@newlocal2 Way to prove you are an unthinking fool. These top players are not top players because they are good tactically. They are top players because their APM is high, and mouse micro control is excellent, not because their tactics are any good. Grow a brain, learn the difference. Reynor SUCKS tactically, always has.
Easily the clearest example of a submission being sent in by a ladder sucker.
Reynor, you should've just played locally (like during a tournament) and cut his PC's power cable.
EZ win. Can't believe this isn't the go-to strat in situations like this yet.
Doesn't even have a lag switch on hand for online games? I thought this guy was supposed to be a pro player smh
Or maybe just a small hard ball, that you can throw into the face of your opponent.
wrgg
I never thought I'd see the day, but it happened. The Captain has admitted that a matchup is, in his mind, imbalanced. I am awaiting the fall of the stars in my fallout shelter as we speak!
"best case scenario is a losing fight" is the most real description of trying to fight mech as zerg.
also insane that this super micro intensive force of broodlords, vipers infestors and roaches, is said to be whats needed versus an army that....can just stand still for the most part and fight optimally. maybe throw out some snipes but you dont even need them. and its still not enough.
Don’t forget the zerg army costs more and and has less hp so they die more easily, but surely they’re more mobile
Zerg is supposed to lose fights vs mech. The counter is that they can outexpand terran and instantly remax with a bank. If you only play deathball vs deathball then zerg isn't the race for you.
@@miavolosss except you can't outexpand mech either, because you can't defend multiple bases(watch the game)
@@OldSpaghettifactory89 And also you can't outpace them since broodlords are still too slow.
@@abyrvalg_ broods are too slow and also get out ranged by Thors…
Whatever clowns are in charge of the balance need to be fired, pretty sure a group of literal clowns off the street would do a better job at this point.
I love how reynor is constantly microing his army in engagements and the terran just sits there on hold position and insta kills anything that comes near his army.
zerg players need to perfectly controll infestor viper broodlord: 2 very squishy spellcasters and 1 quite hard to use air unit, meanwhile terran can A move their thors in the right moments and only need to controll ghosts: cloaked and quite tanky stronger than anything spellcasters that 2 shot every unit
the margin for error in these lategames is completely skewed
Yeah, that's what I am thinking since a long time.
When I see Serral win everybody whines "Zerg imba". And then I rewatch the games and look at what Serral has to do to get the wins.
Use tons of spellcasters, has to be in perfect position every single time with his queens.
And the Terrans? Forget to raise depots - let lings wreak havoc.
Don't bother to use Ravens.
Don't bother with Sensor towers.
Terrans seem often to ignore a lot of the tools they have in their arsenal. And they make a lot of unforced errors (supply depots...) - while Serral always uses everything he has and plays perfectly.
And then Zerg is somehow supposed to be imba?
Let me phrase it this way: If Serrals main was Terran and we would be playing on the exact same patch - Serral would not loose a single map. Ever.
He could probably set the health of his units to 90% and still win every single game.
@@wedgeantilles8575 "Let me phrase it this way: If Serrals main was Terran and we would be playing on the exact same patch - Serral would not loose a single map. Ever.
He could probably set the health of his units to 90% and still win every single game."
He could not. While Serral is the best player ATM, make no misstake, he can only play as well as he plays because he is Zerg and can take advantage of Zerg's fantastic advantages to the max , unlike every other Pro Zerg. He is as consistent as he is because he gets close to perfect information, due to Creep and early overlord for scouting and as long as he makes queens he is more than fine in the early game.
Creep is probably the most overpowered thing in the game. Scans are probably the second most overpowered thing in the game
@@xxhowisuxx scans are so much better than creep, its literally maphacks (creep can only see when they are in range, id say sensor towers are similar to creep in its function) except ofc the speedboost which is quite good, without it zerg can never defend anything
@@shadowpriest2574 Terran can get this info too.
Terran has great scouting tools with Reaper or Hellions (which can harass at the same time).
Terran has Scans + Sensor Towers.
And Terran could build a raven to clear creep.
If creep is so powerful (and creep IS powerful) - FOR GODS SAKE, build a single raven and invest the effort to reduce creep.
That's my problem with Terrans: Terrans HAS all the tools.
They just don't bother to use them because "too much effort".
And just like Serral uses every single tool Zerg has (e.g. burrowed infestors all over the map - agains and again and again - until it got nerfed...), he would use every single tool Terran has.
I thought Reynor was about to say "Help me Obi Wan Kenobi you are my only hope" on his video complain form.
Lmfao, I love how unhinged Harstem's analogies get. *Hypothetical story about jesus* "So that's kind of what these brood lords feel like"
"Alright Mr Christ"
Maybe a single tanky spellcaster with the damage of a normal unit, a point and click spell that instakill, a spell that counters every other spellcaster(in the area of impact) and deletes half of the healthbars of one of the 3 races and a spell that with a pretty cheap cost make them break any position is the real problem (oh they are invisibile)
It would be so easy for them to just go the BW route and put EMP on the raven and put interference matrix on the ghost
@@jimhoxworth7462 even reducing their hp or making their cloak consume more energy would be good, if you compare them to templars they have so many things more
That would be crazy, bro. Blizzard would never have made a unit like that
Lorimbo saying what everyone was thinking watching this 😅
Wdym? Those unbiased pros were clearly thinking of how much reynor sucks
Jesus (Truth, our Creator) loves you. Trust Him and repent. You're precious
@@darkalley8595 Repent? Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
(That's Bible for 'mind your own business'.)
@@darkalley8595 Get outta here
@@darkalley8595 Surrender to this pear
So the terran conglomerate operates chatgpt.
A.I. is an invention of the Umoja Protectorate, didn't you know that?
...why are you looking at me like that, Talandar?
Chatgpt is being developed on Terra by Terrans. Expected.
Terran chaebol
the lorimbo lambo chat gpt mixup is actual comedy gold
The text while Lorimbo was "speaking" was so funny :))))))
the one thing i hate about ultra late game tvz is the mule spam. terran can have 0 scvs and they get 3k minerals per minute. i feel like orbitals should have a cooldown on mules. it doesn’t effect early game and nerfs it in late game.
I agree. infinite scans and mules feel disgusting to play against. it's maphack and mineral hack. a global cooldown on each would fix that.
@@kugeltmg and zerg can remax instantly with a bank and saved larvae... Its asymmetric balance...
@@Spectification both T and P can insta remax with production and a bank? Z can't remax on Blord or lurker instantly.
a symmetric balance - Z can't do anything T can't do (like have free units e.g. infewsted terran/swarmhosts) and T can get maphack, guaranteed mining, never worry about being supply blocked have the best army in the early, mid and late game.
@@kugeltmgZerg has tumors for map vision. Terrans have advantage* on detection though if you have many orbitals.
It's the Protoss which has no equivalent for map vision. What they have is expensive and costs supply.
@@littlecoldhands P has spylons, halucs, and apparently some people even use stasis traps. Still by far the worst of the three, but there are a few options.
Balance idea, disclaimer below: Blinding cloud cancels snipe. How many times did we just watch the entire Terran army get blinded but (thanks only to snipe) still put out more damage than the Zerg? That isn't right.
EMP can still counter it, but if the Terran is caught with their pants down they actually lose a fight decisively for once.
Disclaimer: Not an active player (Zerg main, peaked at D1 around 2020)
Or maybe make fungal disable spellcasts
Or both. screw them. :D
@@ko71k52 Eh, fungal disabling spellcasts might make infestors a bit too strong imo. It would be effective on bringing ghosts down to the right level, but infestors are already a very good unit. The change needs to be to the problem unit: the ghost.
i think this episode is really important for starcraft. a protoss player, a third party observer, judges a matchup between TvZ imbalanced. I think he took long enough to explain the issues with the matchup, gave an actual respectful number of options for both sides, and came to a genuinely insightful decision. Jokes aside with the end bit, I think that this is exactly what I would have wanted from the first Imba determination in the series
this has been happening on ladder for years. Serral has gotten the race so many nerfs that the races arent balanced
I've been waiting to see what would happen when another pro sent in a replay, I'm really curious to see how Harstem critiques a replay from someone better than him with presumably only very small errors.
Edit: Oh it was actually imbalanced, I guess that explains it
He has done it before. He still smashes them like in the regular videos just for smaller in-between things so he curses at that mistake for longer to pad for time until the next mistake. He is actually unbiased on his bias to put dow... I mean, put people in their right place. I actually love Hamster.
I think Lambo or Lowko got told he sucks a while back. I think even Clem sent in a replay one time. Gotta check the archive lol
@@chloesmith4065 I knew that Lowko did twice but he’s not a pro and is below Harstems level
this game illustrates perfectly how crazy good serral is. like zerg really is going to lose if it's a straight up contest, but serral always manages to find ways to bait his opponent, trap his opponent, surprise his opponent, checkmate his opponent.
serral is winning because he's serral, not because he's zerg. and the fuckers on the balance council need to someday figure that out. but they won't, they'll keep nerfing until no other zerg can win and he eventually retires.
Happens a lot in competitive games. You have a player/players that out skills the rest by such a large margin that the devs can't really figure out how to balance the game anymore. And end up making it incredibly unfun for the regular players because they're nowhere close to their skill level.
Yep, Serral and Dark are imba.
They did the same with byun and maru
It kind of reminds me of game 5 from the semifinals of dreamhack at Dallas from just like a month ago or so. Series was tied 2-2, and oliviera had a really strong sieged up position outside of Serral's third base - Serral made the perfectly calculated decision to break off about like 25 lings from his defense and go fight reinforcements that were on the way to that position. He was catching troops that were being rallied across the map, he was cutting off reinforcements from the main base and he was buying time until his upgrades and research finished and then he was able to actually deal with the problem. Without this move it was looking like another timing push that would beat him which already had happened two maps
@@senturian they'll nerf zerg until serral picks up terran and get 100% win ratio
0:44 it took me a second to realize which one was the grandmother lol
I thought it were 2 grandmothersXXd
Thanks to reynor for submitting this. A ton of people in here have ideas, and they’re not afraid to express them with some derision!
I am quite impressed with the video's production quality and glad about the cooperation with all those different voices in the video. Thanks!
All that was missing from Reynor's submission video was dead zerglings with "On the wings of an angel" playing.
Lmao all those ASPCA commercials with that Sarah McLachlan song
On next episode of IODUs - replay from blizzard devs with a new patch
yeah... unfortunately there are no more blizzard devs on sc2, just an intern...
@@Iaotle is there actually only an intern left
@@comestible6270 I'm not at blizzard, but there's probably only a few people working on sc2, and most of them are most likely just server maintainers that don't exclusively maintain sc2.
They're actually is not even an intern. What Microsoft/Activision/Blizzard does is temporarily rotate one developer over from another team to push things like Map pool changes or a community patch that has been already worked on by the balance council. This happens once every several months. There is actually no one actively working on it, not even an intern. At least... this is what someone I know who works at Blizzard told me, and I'm afraid he was not joking.
For example the past couple of maintenances that they've pushed through have broken the free co-op heroes down to just level five so they had to push through another update to unbreak that. So they have like one guy go fix that problem and then he's back to working on whatever it is (CoD, Diablo 4, OW2, whatever)
Next Patch note:
"Terran:
Ghost:
range increased by 4
snipe: removed energy cost, cooldown reduced to 0s
life increased by 100
Ghost Academy:
Personal Cloaking research removed
Permanent Cloaking research added (50/50, 60s): Permanent Cloaking: Your ghost are permanently cloaked. Cloaking doesn't cost energy
We felt that the ghost was too weak a unit, and should be able, alone, to single-handedly stop any brood-lord push coming the Terran way
Zerg:
Brood-lord: brood-ling do not benefit from melee upgrades anymore. Range reduced to 7
We want to encourage more diverse unit composition for the Zergs"
We really needed to hear from Lowko
No, we heard from Lorimbo, even better 😂
I think chat GPT was mixing Lambo and Reynor into Lorimbo. That’s why it said Lorimbo is Italian and also that Lorimbo is from Germany.
The starcraft scene needs more lorimbo
Reynor grandma is OG. God bless her.
Just make it so snipe doesn’t apply to colossal units, it doesn’t make sense anyway. Terran already has hard counters to both the tier 3 colossal Zerg units, let ghosts be the anti-casters they’re supposed to be. Presently they counter literally ALL Zerg comps
Yes. A thousand percent.
Nah thatd make ghosts useless. You dont make ghosts to counter roach/rav. You can do that with marine marauder. You make ghosts to counter zerg spellcasters, and tanky units.
@@xxhowisuxx ...They'd still counter spellcasters, though? That's a use.
@@xxhowisuxx it'd make ghosts about as useful as infestors or high templar. at the moment they counter late-game zerg in general
Yep thors are super strong . And mindcontroll as infestor is stupid becouse infestor is auto focused after using that skill (yes infestor get higher priority. what few people know)
I saw that game on the stream, it was so soothing to see Raynor fail to the same stuff I lost that day multiple times while chat was flexing with their backseat gaming skills. Still there is nuance where skill is to make right decisions to lead game onto track that it does not end up like that. Skill to predict, which is pretty much impossible. That's the imbalance of this game - predicting what' s going to happen. If we could do that we would be playing this game with map hack. And that's the key - something that one can not balance.
great video! Keep going, I watch every single episode of IODIS and I love it.
banter with pros or deconstructing diamonds with metaphors - both fun.
if IODIS was a tv series this would have been a season finale
series finale
I can agree that mass-scans is pretty strong, it helps terran for engage tactics and reveal burrowed units for a cost of 150 as upgrade of a cc, while zerg has to constantly morph overseers with a gas cost.. just to be sniped by ghosts or thors while engaging, or spam fungal to uncloak ghosts.
I'm not saying terran is imba, but that the power of scans helped terran A LOT in this match.
I love how Clem, Future, and uThermal were all terrans
Isnt future a protoss? Or was that future a terran? Cause I think there are 2 futures, one protoss and one terran. Not sure what race that future is tho
So is Kelazhur but I think that was the point. So Harstem doesn't have to put the imbalanced stamp on it. Notice how he kept saying "unbiased". It's satire
They nerf mothership cloak, but not limit every terran's cloak ability 🎉
I am glad we finally had a real imba claim.
yeah, but unfortunately we didn't get to see the imba stamp animation :(, I was so sure it would happen this time.
@@trueskyte Lol, really? After watching Banshees get more value than in any pro game I was pretty sure this was a troll submission.
@@trueskyte imba stamp animation doesn't exist, it costs too much to animate and because harstem's too cheap, he'd rather just say there's no such thing
@@hivetech4903 banshee just didn't let reynor snowball his economy and army but, as harstem said, gumiho not pushing kinda nullified that advantage, the problem for reynor is that every fight he took late,no matter how bad gumiho played it, was a loss, even if gumiho walks up a ramp with fungal and blinding clouds over him
@@hivetech4903 That would have been relevant if Gumiho pushed in like 2 minutes after the banshees. But he did not. He waited quite some time before getting to it and at that point, a loss of 16 drones is nothing to a zerg. Reynor had a significant bank for quite some time and they were fighting while both maxed.
It is clearly imba, because there is no way for a zerg to win if the PvT enters the super late game with the players being about equal. Either the zerg wins before the terran maxes out on his composition or he loses. That is just stupid. Even if Reynor had more bases, the moment Gumiho had his thor ghost hellbat setup, there was no way for Reynor to defend his bases or trade efficiently. Meaning there was no way he could lose.
Minute 20: Terran has 91 supply in workers despite the mule advantage/infinite orbitals and is still dominating all the fights. Maybe the ghost needs to be nerved/brutes buffed? More supply per ghosts or slower energy production. Also ghosts are supposed to be squishy but fungals dont do anything to them.
Yeah that's the crazy thing. More workers, down 40 army supply, still winning fights.
Ghosts should be a unit you get maybe 3 of, not one where it pays off to get 23...
Also not any reason for them to have substantially more hp than a marine
Ghost could be largely fixed whit lower HP or complete snipe rework like limiting it to target only things whit energy or something like that
Would love to hear the uncut lorimbo rant.
… with subtitles !
Only 1 upgrade on broodlings really makes a difference. With 3 armor upgraded Thors they only deal 1 damage per attack. So this missed upgrade really matters. Also flying carapace is completely useless vs Thor + Ghost. Ghosts are definetely imbalanced though.
the ghosts got off a lot of cheeky snipes in that losing fight up a ramp + the base going down.
Theoretically, you can suggest plenty of things that Reynor could have done, but the issue never has been that zerg have no options, it's that the options take literal GOAT level players to pull off against any donkey that can a-move. This applies to ZvP also.
This does NOT apply to ZvP. Protoss also has to actually use their brain and hands to fight an effective Zerg army. And notably, it doesn't take GOAT levels to win against a Terran that is only using a-move, unless they're also on a ridiculous level. It just takes being at a level where both can be expected to micro effectively. Reynor isn't the GOAT, for example, but he still beats almost every Terran player out there.
I've always thought the ghost was over powered. It shouldn't be the counter to everything. Give the EMP to the Raven like the science vessel in SC1, and maybe have the snipe ability do percentage of health so there is diminishing returns.
Can you imagine that in TvP? P would be even more screwed up with mid game pushes. Btw, as long as EMP deals infinite damage to shields, it wont matter even if we double the Ghost's cost. At last the EMP doesnt cover half of the map anymore.
@tomasotomato Yeah I guess I don't play Terran or Protoss. Maybe make the emp do percentage based damage / energy reduction too.
I just don't like ghosts. Pretty tanky, counters everything, and has an auto attack for A-click... which the HTs getting a water balloon attack also kinda irritated me. All casters should have a weak auto attack or none of them.
Serral-Oliveira in Dallas was a good example, every zerg that tournament got dominated by Oliveira and his ghosts. So Serral just adjusts and plays almost exclusively ling/bane/ravager just to avoid/neutralize 1 single unit that can take out tier3 units in a single snipe. Ghosts need a massive nerf.
I cant decide if Reynor looking exactly like his grandma is wholesome or embarrassing, perhaps it is both
Reynor's Grandmother is OP.
Or perhaps neither???
Should have his grandma say "I remember the Great Zergreotic War, when queens could fky!"
What keeps shooting, never misses and never reloads?
.
.
.
.
Every terran unit
The widow mine has to reload.
@@taragnor The widows mine attack is a spell with a cooldown, lol.
@@Quin.Bioinformatics That's called reloading. But I still like your comment.
Artosis and his vultures would like to differ.
@@lukyspdegaming5422 yes, a mechanical wizard focusing spiritual energy between fireballs. pure magic
Next Patch note:
"Terran:
Ghost:
range increased by 4
snipe: removed energy cost, cooldown reduced to 0s
life increased by 100
Ghost Academy:
Personal Cloaking research removed
Permanent Cloaking research added (50/50, 60s): Permanent Cloaking: Your ghost are permanently cloaked. Cloaking doesn't cost energy
We felt that the ghost was too weak a unit, and should be able, alone, to single-handedly stop any brood-lord push coming the Terran way
Zerg:
Brood-lord: brood-ling do not benefit from melee upgrades anymore. Range reduced to 7
We want to encourage more diverse unit composition for Zerg players"
Well this was definitely something that I was not expecting on my birthday. Thank you Harstem for this treat of a video.
Hbd 🎉
Hbd🔥
YESSSSSS FINALLY I'VE BEEN SAYING GHOST THOR WAS BROKEN VS ZERG LATEGAME FOR YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Honestly this is why stopped playing SC2. Mech is BS in TvZ. Most frustrating MU ever
The power imbalance between Thors and Brood Lords is the direct result of the balance council's meddling.
Broods were stronger prior to the rework that made them better at kiting and worse at straight up fights-- which NOBODY ASKED FOR, just like the cyclone changes, it was somebody on the balance council playing mad scientist, and screwing up something that didn't need to be changed.
terran seriously imba. gumis army was 6k less value and he got demolished
Thoughts at 17:00 - without any melee upgrades, are the broodlings able to do _any_ real damage against units with +3 armor? Their attack does only 4 base damage
I was confused by Harstem being confused why the siege failed. Fungal growth was doing the damage not the broods
Most of the broodlords damage comes from the direct attack, not from broodlings, especially when it comes to sniping thors. The broodlords had +3 flyer attacks.
real no, but minimal damage is 1. And arent base damage is 6?
The fact that Ghosts counter Ultras as well as Broodlords may be overpowered. Just saying.
Ghost counter so many units. EMP is the biggest hard counters in the game against Archons. Also against High templars.
@@xilial And dark templars!
And sentry I guess
Ghosts also counter Lurkers, Infestors, the entire Protoss race except for disruptors, etc...
100%. Ghosts are a disgusting unit. They need a movement speed reduction and a Snipe cast time increase at minimum. They could also use a slight DPS nerf.
lol what? Otherwise Terran would lose every game, Zerg can tech switch instantly.
problem with zerg is there's absolutely no counter to ghost, while infestors have been nerfed to the ground years ago. Infestors need another tool than the crap they've been given.
Ghost the answer for all terran problems... Annoyed by lurkers or ultra's? Snipe them? Is a Vyper or Infestor given you problems? EMP the shit out of them? Protoss has units? How about just remove half of it HP with one EMP...
Somehow Infestors get nerfed over and over ... but Ghosts are perfectly balanced. meanwhile.. it took years for the change to make the infestor start with enough energy to do 'ANYTHING' 😂
I was even thinking that maybe hydra/lurker/viper could have been better than BL/Infestor/viper here, but it's even more immobile, still vulnerable to snipes, and liberators. I think they went too far with the fungal nerf and banelings speed upgrade hp nerf, not that they were relevant in this game.
@@chloesmith4065 Hydra lurkker is actually more mobile, you can place few nyduses and be absolutly fine, especially with such awesome creep as Reynor has. Problem is, Lurkers arent that good against thors, especially when oppponent knows how to use scan and focus them. And Hydra just dies to a-move Hellions. Gumiho made really great plays in regards of creating such beutifull compasition. My idea is using Swarmhosts for poukes into enemy army with occasional snipes of thor or two. It would have allowed to keep your grades going and be mobile with nyduses. But maybe that way too taxing for apm or other stuff. Glad i watched this game because i would never get to this ocnclusion on my games.
@@expepem189xl3 Reynor apm is legendary. Problems with swarm hosts are: 1. Time to reload 2. Sucks on defense 3. Needs first hit to be big
Problem with ghosts 1. Costs a lot of resources
@@Galahad54 Yeah i remember not being able to use them, but maybe in this specific comp they would be ok?
Best episode ever! The "not biased council" was the cherry on top. Those analysis were so perfectly impartial... love to see it!
Scans last waaaaaay too long. The zerg is spending double the gas to have an army half as good...
Raynor’s observer control had him throwing them away every fight. Yeah it could’ve been intentional as a damage sponge but it’s his fault if he didn’t have vision. Plus I don’t think Raynor was ever unaware of where gumiho was, so I don’t think the vision difference is imbalanced, just a benefit.
@@OurayTheOwl Yes it's a damage sponge. you need it because the thors outrange the brood lords. Which was an extremely unpopular balance change a few years ago. BL has been nerfed into oblivion. Zerg needs a way to get real units close to swarm and surround but has no unit that fills this role in ultra late game.
Need like a T3 upgrade for roaches giving them adaptive plating at lower HP
@@JackDeHearts this isn’t a joke but what about spore crawlers in this matchup?
I know they can be out maneuvered and countered by the same units and are just bad, but they do out range everything. I don’t remember spore crawlers ever being oppressive so why not buff them?
@@OurayTheOwl Well, as a moving structure that defends itself and doesn't contribute towards army supply, if you buffed spore crawlers with the intention of making late game TvZ more viable for zerg you'd end up causing far more stalemates than victories. It wouldn't be _oppressive_, just a really annoying way to unnecessarily draw out games longer than they should go.
That said, though, I don't think air control was his problem this game, only thing the spores helped to do was zone out the liberators. I know he took a lot of damage from the 2 banshee push, but he never built spores to defend against it to begin with.
I'm surprised Harstem disregarded the map in his final response. A huge reason why Reynor struggled is because this map is hard for Zerg to hold bases on. Harstem pointed that out several times himself during the video.
I think that in theory, Zerg has ways to shut Terran down before the ultra late-game army really gets rolling. But the game is played by flawed humans, and the Zerg gameplan is way harder to execute. And I think the game would be better if there wasn't such a large gap.
I mean, "winning before endgame" isn't exactly something that it should be okay to expect from an entire third of your playerbase. That actually strictly means that an equally skilled Terran will beat Zerg because they can fight just as well, and therefore survive to late game.
Omg the Lorimbo part was the cherry on top, I loved this one. I would love to know if there was an alternative to what Reynor played, like a follow-up video, or is this just a situation where you don't want to get as zerg?
Brilliant video, I loved the analysis as always, and I didn't even realise that there was basically no roasting of the players LOL! Epic!
Ghosts indeed look OP in every single professional late game TvZ and TvP.
Erm raynor doing the correct response , right units and everything, plus maxxed out armies, but still would be unable to win a fight seems like the definition of imba to me.
yea there isnt realy a debate to be had about this, late game T is to powerful, they have so many advantages, most of thier units can attack both air/ground, all units can fly/heal, infinite scans and mules.
I see. So if Terran allows Zerg to drone and loses because Zerg swarm snowballs that's just game/race mechanics and T should have contained Z by doing damage.
But when Z allows Terran to build so many Orbitals that Terran can reduce worker count and increase late game army by 20-30 supply - then T is imba.
@@dawislv The difference is that both races can compete early game, but ultra late it's just over in favor of one race (assuming played at a high skill level).
@@TheRealXartaX and statistically that's Zerg
@@dawislv u mean serall XD . I saw statistic (at screen during some turnaments) and actually only serral have much bigger win rate vs P and T (something like 91% ) and then 2 zerg has only 64 % . (and top terran have something 65 % vs Z , P )
@@piotroszczyk7197 not really.
Serall for sure is great player, but one player cannot influence statistics so significantly simply because he cannot in the same tournament take 1st, 2nd and 3rd spot.
Zerg at top level is favored and statistics have shown it for years.
this makes me appreciate what serral is able to do even more
because yes, it certainly looked like reynor solidly outplayed his opponent this game but still lost
Serral is on another level from everybody else
"When both players are of equal skill its almost impossible for zerg to take good fights". I've been saying this for years.
Awaiting the sleeping Terran's to say Ghosts need a buff.
Ghost imba
I dont think zerg have ever taken equal fights and never were meant to, that is why they build bases faster and are the swarm. It's a structural choice behind the concept of the race itself. . To change it would require changing so much of zerg, it won't even be zerg anymore, it would just be terran or protoss with a zerg skin hehe.
@@Jez4prez1 Good point, but how can you be the swarm when the Terran can more easily maintain an overwhelming economy with a huge army? Mules economy + orbitals floating whenever in danger....
@@firestarter000001 Zerg float in late game also, all the races do, the Terran equivalent is to spend the float into orbitals, while Zerg instead can have upto 10k (I've seen much higher, if you add minerals and gas) in resources in ultra late game. The worker count becomes increasingly irrelevant for all races in late game, since they're usually only mining from 2 and a half bases or less anyhow. Zerg still has the advantage of quick remaxes in ultra late game. There is still the swarm element.
Anyhow, I'm not here to provide answers or fixes on what new patches should be (or to complain about imba or nerfs/buffs etc). I don't' think the answer is to always just patch everything, or to rely too heavily on patches. I think the last few patches have been very poor to be honest (and that there have been some real bad patches in the past). My preference would be more responsibility should be on the players to come up with new innovations in gameplay (see Dark vs Maru in the recent GSL final, and Dark did just that, amazing). I think map-pools also play a major / over-sized role in balance also. I actually think the unit / race balance was in a real good spot like 2ish + years ago (or thereabouts, don't remember the exact time, but I think it was definitely much better then than present, both to play and to watch, but that is just imo).
1:18 i was waiting for the 'accepted' stamp and sound here - would have been perfect
Now THIS is pod racing !
Great production. Great content - both entertainment and knowledge. And just that great idea of a series. Totall W
Mech is overpowered. If not used at the pro level why do normal people have to deal with 100 apm unbeatable deathball?
I've been watching this series and I believe this was the best video with the most promising ending. But I believe that Terran was O.P., but I also believe that maybe Nydus would help on mobility for the Zerg.
Reynor could use cracklings to destroy base structures while being attacked massively by Thors. This forces Terran to go back. Terran hadn't any unit composition for zerglings, mainly focused on counter attack Corruptors and Brood Lords.
Zerg late game has been nerfed for 10+ years now - everyone was terrified of the "400/200" army advantage that hasn't existed since T+P realised they were allowed to build more than 4 production buildings.
So Zergs trade cost in-effeciently and try to take more bases, usually using Lurkers or Nydus to gut enemy production. They can never fight any maxed out enemy in high-tech late game scenarios.
Maybe ghosts need a disadvantage? In the lore they're supposed to be rare, an army of Marines with a ghost operative, not an army of ghosts. What if they were classified as light like marines so they actually have to fear banelings?
That said, the ghosts were quite bobbed this game and I was waiting for neural -> EMP the blob which never happened.
Infestor is auto focused . YES if infestor use mindcontrol infestor get higher attack priority. (this is probably reason why terran use 2 liberators becous now if infestor neural thor they will die in 1 s )
The ending was perfection.
I think Reynor didn't build enough vipers, with 4 vipers instead of 2 he would have had way mroe control with the blinding clouds. The infestor force is nice, but you don't really need more then about 8 for fungels and the extra vipers would have gotton way mroe added value, where he can pull out decently many thors to thin out the army and overrrun the rest with his broodlords
Honestly I wish we could have heard a quick summary of _why_ the decision at the end turned out to be what it was. The best part about IODIS in lower level play is the way it highlights the specific mistakes each player made so the rest of the community can learn and grow from those mistakes in their own games.
(Last half of this comment is a spoiler for the end, you have been warned!)
The way they ended it with "nah just git gud lmao" felt like a cop out more than an expert analysis. I'm sure they had reasons why, but since they never voiced those reasons, it kinda feels like it defeated the whole point, y'know? At that point, anyone with the credibility of being a pro currently can say whatever they want. Dark might as well come back and say "Nah they're wrong, we should definitely buff zerg, I'd love that" or "Actually the most imba race in TvZ is Protoss, they need a nerf." Without them pointing to evidence or reasoning that counters what you expressed throughout the video, it's just a claim, and nothing is really gained from it being tossed out there.
I know, I know, it was mostly meant to just be a bit, lol. Maybe I took it all too seriously. But I was genuinely really curious to hear what they had to say about the game and the matchup overall.
It’s broken and I’m not sure there’s a way to fix it. Obviously they’re all trolling for the video.
the Terran units here are simply better and Zerg no longer has economy or production advantage and there’s no tech to rotate to either.
Mules will mean Terran can have a larger army supply and maintain 2-4 mineral lines + 8-10 gas easy.
All of this is indicative of LotV being too fast imo. If you watch serral has been trying to circumvent Terran late game too. But it’s hard when economies explode there isn’t really much of a mid game…
Yeah! I wish an in-depth explanation would've been given.
The only thing I could say is don't lose as much overlords in the beginning, be better prepared with spores against banshees and then you would have more resources for an early attack or earlier upgrades. but that's almost the same as saying "play better" because in the end both players had maxed supply and good composition, Raynor even had more army at times.
The end was a bit to replace Harstem's flaming on lower rank submissions, which was half the entertainment of this IODIS series, and the learning part ultimately hinged till now on Harstem's knowledge/analysis, which did comprised the main breadth/duration of this video.
So, I'm content with Harstem's explanation (even with his own bias). Expecting the others to give serious takes is a bit gratuitous / would need popular demand to transform this series into high level pro discussion on Harstem or the other pros.
There's a lot to be said but the vid was probably long enough. It would be cool to have like a follow up 5 player podcast kind of thing discussing the state of the koprulu sector
I love that the "Terran" icon got switched to "not a donkey"..... hamster is freaking brilliant!!
I think you guys forget that although Terran is incredibly over powered in game the player has a massive mental disability that prevents them from utilising that power. So, it really is balanced after all :)!
@@srigen1026 Man you got mad. Well i am just more of zerg player, and when i complain about tosses or terrans, i build stuff and do stuff that i complain about, get disquastingly easy win, and go back to my race. Its about not feeling helpless in situation, not about "Pls i want free wins" Broodlords need some rework or something, as t3 unit in mech game, or maybe ultra. Because not being able to play t3 against players with t3 is strange.
@@srigen1026 My man, if you know how this isnt imbalance, explain how to counter it. Clearly this comp is impossible to play against mech. Weell its possible and if grades would be on time, that would be more decent and smooth game, where Reynor would have higher chance. But Having to play 3x apm and not make mistakes against player who constantly does them, is kinda looking wrong.However as a Zerg player i can understand that this is beautifull balance of RockPapperScisorss , just cant think of 2 compositions to beat that shit.
Yeah its fair and square about the lower rating people when i switch race, but its about understanding weakneses and bottom rocks of the annoying strat. With mech, Zerg or protoss cant understand where is it. Check army costs. Gumiho army costs only 75% of Reynor army, and that 25 % in GAS holy. That sounds ridiculos! And its not even that hard to execute. Tank there tank here, a move your dudes, and focus on Emp and eco.
Explain weakneses and how to deal with it.
@@srigen1026Well yeah lurkers might work at much lower rating. But man, you sound like ai, havent you seen what Reynor were doing? He only fighted in a Blinding cloud+fungal combo, my man was doing his best with spells, that the only reasone why he was even alive for so long, because he used spells and caught his opponent all the time. Problem is. It still didnt work. You saw the game. Only idea i had, is swarm hosts. Lurkers are quite expensive as well, its ok to get +400 resourses lead and go back for few snipes.
Can you tell me the weak spots of TERRAN SIDE here?
@@srigen1026 Bro what are you yapping about, Reynor used clouds and fungal, yonked dudes too, i can outplay this comp same way, but its still unfair.
Yet you seeing this video claiming that thats the play? I asked you about specifical weakness of this comp. Of course everyone is weak against spells. Like just Storm or Emp this comp and you win, lol.
huh actually that gived me idea, just use parasite on ghost and emp others. thanks.
This comment reminds me why I quit playing SC2. Still toxic AF.
I guess the queens no longer being able to transfuse off creep has hurt?
The game is balanced for Serral playing Zerg - and no one else.
i think the play is hold fire lurkers to snipe the ghosts and other small support units that are protecting the thors from the broodlings preventing them from locking the thors in place
the terran scans ahead of their army, they never scan the retreat path assuming nothing has moved in behind them
the issue is not getting the lurkers spotted while moving them to their ambush position but given the terran would generally scan the middle and not the sides of the map there are path options to swing a small group of lurkers into a position behind the attacking terran army and use hold fire to prevent them from giving away their position tell you tell them to fire or the random terran scan catches them
We all know whats the problem: if they buff Zerg and the closest to perfect Zerg player comes backs from his military service... he would sweep all up, or lose against another zerg.
Maybe Thors need a nerf? Now that I think about it, a lot here seems to be about maneuverability and map control, so maybe a speed nerf?
he sweeps everyone still while in military lol
@@tarvoc746thors are already pretty slow; you can just carry them around in medivacs (which gumiho was doing quite a bit)
Zerg is very underpowered and needs a buff in order for non-gods to have a chance at winning. But yea they won't do it because Serral literally would never lose again and they'd lose all their viewers. So it's a lose-lose - either the game is balanced and nobody watches pros (they wouldn't do this because hardly anyone plays the game anyway lol) or the game is imbalanced and everybody below pros will slowly stop playing the game.
I think the only way to nerf terran or buff Zerg is if serral decides to switch to terran and starts annihilating everyone.
If it happens he can always switch back to Zerg 😂
This was absolute gold. Im cracking up at the ending.
As a zerg. The only thing that's really Imba is this godless map pool. Is awful for zerg.
Its even worse than the actual balabce I agree 😂
Yeah, when an always-vetoed map like Goldenaura becomes an auto-include TO PLAY for every Zerg, you know that the map pool is kind of a joke.
This map pool just sucks even ignoring balance
Serral will still win the World Cup tho, and Dark just won the last GSL
This game was painful to watch..
Terrans are incredibly efficient, and the biggest standout is the mines early game and ghosts late game.
Not gonna type a 8000 word comment. Just gonna say this - the best protest everyone who thinks terran is imba could do, is to play terran. Let there be no zerg, no toss. Only terran vs terran. Then we shall see how these smug faces change, when there's no meat to the grinder, when there's no easy-to-defeat races around. Just the perfectly flawless amazingly imbalanced overpowered godlike terran, like Blizz intended to create. The perfect stimpack/medivac style, the impossible to be defeated mech map hack all around moving mighty terran. Just terran vs terran vs fucking terran vs terran vs > until everyone's eyes bleed out of envy and disgust beholding deities fighting each other and no one complaining anymore.
I repeat - best strategy to anally defile, no lube, these terran players who think terran is balanced and equal to toss and zerg, is to have all great toss and zerg players start playing terran. 24/7! At all competitions. Everywhere. As far as eyes can see, only terran. Let's see then how fun it becomes to them.
Much love! ❤
P.S.: Reynor is a much better player than Gumiho. (that's just my opinion) His race lost, not him. If Reynor could play terran as well as he plays zerg, Gumiho won't win more than 2 out of 10 vs him. Same goes to you, Harstem. Start playing terran to match how well you play toss, and you'll just destroy a lot of players who now think they're better than you just because their race wins for them...
How to kill the game in one easy step
@@chloesmith4065 If Blizzard didn't nerg Terran to compensate, I'm sure it would. The trick is that their balance teams would likely nerf T to encourage people to play other races. Statistics is the thing that most companies' teams track with regards to balance decisions.
Seeing how Gumiho always pulls his whole army back just to deal with a few zerglings harassing his mineral line or in his main base, I do wonder why wasn't one of the most imba strategy used? Plonk a few nydus worms around and ling/roach flood the place. The Thors is not mobile enough to react. Only Ghosts and helions will be fast enough, and that will take a chunk out of the main army. At least that is what I observe from pro matches.
from a casual observer
unbiased??? Arent all of them terrans?
Of course not, lorimbo plays zerg 😅
@@glamodrama287 rly? thats your answer?
Congratulations you got the joke
That T composition is pretty insane. You just cant get near it and its game over for any Z if you let it get to that. Reynor didnt have a chance at any moment once it hit late game. It was over long before he GG'd. Its imba for sure.
One thing I think everyone misses, is how thors are used against BLs. When a clumped BL army goes from 18 BLs to 13, it visually looks like Reynor took zero damage... especially when the commentary is focused on thors getting fungaled (which has a large visual effect, but is actually no damage).
Gumiho was also entering the late game light-years ahead. I think he was 6base and 12 orbitals before Reynor got 1-1 upgrades.
I agree.
Terran is Imba.
I'm protoss and vs. Marines, marauder, ghost, medivac, about 12 Liberators, and some four thanks. In 3 upgrades + GOOD MICRO, are almost invincible
34:07 to 34:17 is a great example of ghosts being OP. They can get healed instantly and cloak whenever. They can serve as infanty and spellcaster. Only one spellcaster unit needed for everything. Nukes are fun for viewers but not necessary in the game at all. On top of that Terrans can swap workers for energy, vision for energy, heal/repair any unit, move bases, get built in static defense... Come on. It's even worse in TvP with EMPs. Yes i suck at the game but i like watching pros. If not for Serral's insane skills the major tournaments would have been pointless to watch for a while now. Not fixing the balance undermines the legitimatecy of the game and will eventually drive away viewers, IMO. End rant 😊
Medivacs OP, flying shield batteries. Heal per second should be cut in half or something.
So the truth we've always known has been revealed. Terran's Orbitals are the true IMBA on the game. Infinite scans, free/no supply scvs on acid falling from the sky, but Activision errr I mean Blizzard doesn't care anymore of the game