Benjicot Blackwood ordered Tessarion to be killed after Second Tumbelton. An interesting guy steps forward. "Billy Burley was a longbowman in the service of House Blackwood during the Dance of the Dragons. His name indicates some relationship to House Burley a mountain clan in the north. Character Billy was considered the best archer in the employ of House Blackwood during the Dance of the Dragons. History Following the Second Battle of Tumbleton, Lord Benjicot Blackwood had Billy mercy kill Tessarion, the she-dragon of the late Prince Daeron Targaryen. From one hundred yards away Billy fired three shafts through the eye of the wounded dragon." -A wiki of Ice and fire
Robb Rivers, known as Red Robb Rivers and the Bowman of Raventree, was a bastard of House Blackwood of Raventree Hall. He was said to be the finest archer in all Westeros. History Fighting on the side of the blacks, Robb brought three hundred archers to the Battle by the Lakeshore during the Dance of the Dragons. Caught by armies from the riverlands and the north, Lord Humfrey Lefford sent ravens to Prince Aemond Targaryen at Harrenhal for assistance. However, Robb used his archery to prevent any of the ravens from reaching Aemond. While marching from the Gods Eye to the Blackwater Rush, Criston's surviving host was met at a ridge by an army of thousands of blacks led by Ser Garibald Grey, Ser Pate of Longleaf, and Roderick Dustin, Lord of Barrowton. Criston offered to yield if the blacks would spare the lives of his men, but he was refused. When Criston then challenged all three of his counterparts, Pate had Robb Rivers and his archers strike down the Kingmaker with three arrows.
There are many more mystical arrows in the history. Just before the Red Grass Field, Fire Ball is mystically murdered with an arrow. Aemon Targaryen on Tarth and so on...
"Alysanne was sixteen years old when House Blackwood declared for the blacks, the faction loyal to Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen during the Dance of the Dragons. Although Ser Amos Bracken slew Lord Samwell Blackwood during the Battle of the Burning Mill, Aly is said to have quickly avenged her brother's death by firing a weirwood arrow into the slit of Amos's helm." Married Cregan Stark.
If Aegon shared his prophecy with Torrhen, do you think that knowledge was passed down through generations the same way Viserys told Rhaenyra??? Maybe Brandon and Rickard Stark knew but couldn't tell Ned because of their sudden deaths. Great work!! Greetings from Bolivia!!
Which explains how Cregan and Jacaerys ended up forging the pact of ice and fire. Cregan simply wanted the pact to be on the Stark's terms, with the Dragon princess marrying to a wolf prince. But everything got screwed by the following decades.
The irony that after 300 years of the Starks showing unwavering loyalty to the Targs, it's "good ol' honourable" Ned who breaks the streak. I never realised before, but it's a strange sort of reversal of Jaime, isn't it? The man with the reputation for honour is so motivated to do good but just can't help cocking things up, while Jaime "let's see if you can fly, kid" Lannister saved a city, set Bran on his path to greensight, and may yet have another role to play in the fight for the living.
The Starks weren't going to break the oaths they swore to Rhaenyra anyway, but this prophecy plotline also lines up with how Jacaerys and Cregan Stark became allies during the Dance because he was the heir, and therefore knows about Aegon's prophecy just as much as the Stark rulers knew about it. This makes the Greens' cause a weaker one in Cregan's eyes because the prophecy wasn't passed down to them as it was for the Blacks. It also explains why Cregan was so determined on installing Aegon III on the iron throne because he was Rhaenyra's last heir (presumably) and was probably taught about the prophecy too.
After losing Jace, it's said that Rhaenyra almost never lost sight of Aegon the Younger and always took him with her until her death, which is why the poor kid had to witness it. Given this, I'd say it's a guarantee that she'd have told him before the end, especially given how precarious her own situation was at the time.
Torrhen, probably: So, why should I bent the knee? I mean I get it you have dragons, but we're northmen, the first men, there's hundreds of thousands of us and if Dorn didn't bent why should we... Aegon: Winter. Torrhen: ? Aegon: Is. Torrhen: ... Aegon: Coming. Torrhen: ...son of the bitch. *kneels*
@@DavidLightbringer Yeah, "There needs to be a Targaryen on an Iron Throne" "There's always has to be a Stark in Winterfell"... "Yeah yeah, the prophecy about long night and the end of the world, we all know about it" - michael from "the good place" meme.jpg
Idk if this means anything but in the battle of the redgrass field, bloodraven's weirwood arrows killed Daemon, Aegon and Aemon Blackfyre... aka 3 dragons
Pretty cool however hate to be that guy.. but was it actually his personal arrows or did the three dragons get killed by arrows of his ravens teeth? Would matter in some regard but overall a cool point he's responsible for three dragons being killed
@David Lightbringer Maybe Aegon already knew about the threat of the Weirwood arrows. It could come from a dream, the maesters or something he read in an old Valyrian scroll.
I'm more and more convinced that Aegon's prophecy was put into the show not only to connect it to GoT and raise the stakes, but also to inform us about the story proper. The thing about Torrhen is that there is a slight parallel to Jaime in his nickname. Jaime did something honourable and was mocked with the name Kingslayer for the rest of his life. And to me The King Who Knelt never sounded not somewhat mocking. By the way, might Bloodraven killing a Blackfyre with a weirwood arrow foreshadow a certain dragon who spits black fire being killed by a weirwood arrow (or at least something fashioned out of weirwood)?
Or if the theories are correct that another Blackfyre will die (fAgeon). Some people think that he might claim one of Dany's dragons, and they might have to kill the dragon. There are many possibilities.
@@space_orphan I never said George did. I said he loves historical echoes, which he does and I said I like the idea of him writing it that way, which I do. 😉
It always struck me as odd that the North surrendered so quickly when Dorne was able to hold out as I would argue that the North is even better suited to a guerrilla style war against the Targs. The north as a larger and more useful countryside to flee to, castles really don’t serve the lynchpin function the serve in most other kingdoms, and there is a fanatical loyalty to the starks. I really like this theory.
Brandon Snow is the name of my character in Mount and Blade AWOIAF mod, because I've always admired the audacity of his dragon killing proposal. I always thought he was like the Stark's version of Daemon Targaryen. The Rogue Bastard.
I thought about this when reading a later part of Fire and Blood, when Jaehaerys ordered the construction of roads in Westeros. The first one started and the first one finished was The King's Road, which spanned all the way up to Winterfell. Hmm.
I donno why but I always thought Torrhen kneeling before Aegon was a really badass things that ever happened in Westeros, specially since his people went home unscathed.
I think the moment Aegon realised his prophecy wasn't about him was the death of Rhaenys: I mean, his dragon didn't have three heads anymore. That's one reason, I suppose, he seemed to grow lax on the whole 'uniting the realm' thing and felt comfortable leaving the conquest of Dorne to his descendants, once the chance arose. This I think is what links Rhaegar to Aegon: he realised the prophecy needed three people and switched focus from himself to his heirs. He was probably the first one to come to that conclusion after Aegon.
I don't understand why you all think those lame arrows could kill Balerion lmao. No way it would puncture the dragon's skin, not even bolts could do it.
To prevent war , and I imagine that the North was far enough away from southern kingdoms the diplomatic approach was better route. North retain its culture and controlled region mostly . So kudos for not starting a war where whatever outcome basically leads to same result.
What if after being told the prophecy Torrhen Stark passed his interpretation to the heirs of Winterfell as well? There have been some kinks in the succession, e.g. She-Wolves of Winterfell story, so it may have been watered down like a long game of Telephone until all that was left was, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."
House of the Dragon, The Doom House of the Dragon, The Conquest House of the Dragon The Concilliator House of the Dragon the Dance (Current) House of the Dragon Blackfyre House of the Dragon Rebellion
That could be why Ned didn't want Robert to kill all the Mad King's children! Even before he knew about Jon. And one more reason, why he didn't want to assassin Dany and Viserys.
Wish I could have remained a squisher longer than I did. It's very nice to see you giving us youtube viewers video love, especially after all the hotd livestreams. Some of us just have hectic schedules so content like this is great!
Lyanna told Ned and that’s another reason Ned and Benjen were so open to letting Jon join the nights watch. Maybe even why Benjen joined to prepare the way along with his guilt.
I have always thought the Starks knew but it didn’t get to Ned. Like the head of the family and the heir know like the Targs. Then Brandon went to start shit with Rhaegar with the “come out and die” and Rickard Stark went to help him and the truth died with the family line. Maybe Ned was told but then why ignore before the deserter who claims to have seen an Other? I have always thought the Others must have a family connection to the Others and it is a blood dept of sorts. The “there must always be a Stark at Winterfel” about the magic and the duty they own to protect against the Others. But knowing may be why he let Jon go to the wall. Could Ned have believed Jon was the Prince that was Promised to save or the one who was owed? Ugh I’m going to wait for your video because you always catch somethings I missed. Great video yet again.
I think Ned's father, Rickard Stark, told Brandon (older brother) about Aegon's dream but didn't tell Ned about it. The Targaryen Kings entrusted their heirs with Aegon's Dream but not other family members. It is a deep secret.
9:55 dude turned Torrhen Stark into Ronnel Arryn here lol. I hope Torrhen got to pet Aegons dragon and that Ronnel got another ride on Vhager. Kind of fucked up Torrhen only got to pet a dragon while Ronnel got to ride one. Bet Ronny remembered that for the rest of his life
I just want to compliment the captions on the one picture of Aegon and Torrhen. It really added to the journey of the video. Informative and hilarious!
This is such a great theory to add to the story. I just love the idea of Brandon snow chatting with Aegon. And that’s why the Starks knelt to him. Amazing
Waking up, making coffee and seeing there is new video by LML, absolutely made my morning. Been bingeing your videos lately and just wanted to say excellent work. I got so worked up about some of your theories I had to reread ASOIAF. Hoping to catch livestream soon, but time zones ...
Here's something this video made me think of, and while I'm sure it's been discussed I've never heard anyone talk about it: who was the Greenseer in that cave beyond The Wall before Bloodraven? Who called him to that cave, to make his last ranging even though he was Lord Commander at the time? And/or did Bloodraven already know of Aegon's Prophecy and seek out whomever his version of The Three-Eyed Crow was? Like I said I just thought of this but I'm already obsessed by the idea.
4:43 that artwork of Torrhen kneeling before Aegon is so perfect for some reason, like I subconsciously used to consider them as official but then one day I was like "these are just artworks/fanart but they're so good they're official in my book" Aegon and Torrhen look just like how you'd imagine them IMO.
I wonder if the "messages back and forth" between Aegon and Torrhen were written at all. If so, this would mean that even if Aegon's own writings that potentially Daeron (Egg's brother) was reading on the subject were lost, that the Starks somewhere have record of it.
Seems pretty plausible that the Starks were told about the dream. I can imagine it with a dude turning up with dragons which is one thing but also talking about old legends and tales from your land that they wouldn’t have known from the other side of the world. It be very stand-out.
Perhaps while Brandon Snow was carving the weirwoods arrows, the tree spoke to him. Could be why Bran saw this moment - where the trees speaking can be heard and change history, despite what BR tells him. Love the Torrhen - Aegon banter, we need a meme series 😂
Shooting a dragon with a weirwood arrow allows a skin changer or green seer to skin change a dragon. Having a weirwood foothold in the dragon allows skin changers to enter through the weirwood embedded in the dragon.
@@DavidLightbringer could be a strategy to break Eurons control over one of the dragons, if the the dragon horn works. Also, I have no proof for this theory, just thought it would be a cool idea.
My question is if Torrhen Stark knew the prophecy, how was this information lost to the Starks? Or was it even? I’m pretty sure Ned thinks of his “promises” (plural) to Lyanna at some point, and expresses some kind of apology for not being able to keep a promise. If he only promised to keep Jon safe, wouldn’t he have succeeded? Maybe Lyanna also knew of the prophecy from Rhaegar and told Ned on her deathbed. Ned would have believed her if the Stark Lords have been passing down a secret about the exact same prophecy. Maybe Lyanna also made Ned promise to raise Jon as a warrior, someone who would defend the realm from the coming threat to the North, which is why Ned was supportive of Jon taking the black and joining the Night’s Watch. But if Ned knew of the prophecy we probably would’ve seen him think about it during his POV at some point, like when he thinks of Rhaegar or Lyanna or the Targaryen dynasty in general. So maybe not. Edit: OH NO I just saw the very next video is about this exact topic haha oops
It makes sense to me that Aegon and Torrhen through Brandon (and 3 maesters) told each other of their respective requirements to be seated in their respective seats of power and that this allowed a pact of non-aggression. But I also kinda of wonder about the decision to meet in of itself. It's explicitly a 4th option in the text for Torrhen. He neither tried to cross the Trident, as advised, nor retreated to Moat Caitlin, as advised, nor allowed Brandon to go dragon-killing. He knows already that Aegon basically allows all who kneel to go virtually unmolested and unchanged regarding rule and custom (and we don't hear of any other lords who knelt who treated with Aegon first to retain titles or lands or custom, including Loren Lannister who was captured on the run). Everything suggests that Aegon and Torrhen didn't need to talk; Torrhen could have knelt to begin with and come out with the same result. So why meet? Obviously, it's a good idea to learn Aegon's intentions before trying to fight him, and the mark of a wise leader, but it's clearly a departure from the other kings and stewards. And there are implied a lot of messages back and forth for something that Aegon seems to agreed to easily even for people who did attack him. Torrhen's also the only kneeler whose army is mentioned as having given up their swords to the throne without having attacked or being under duress. That could be implied with the others, but the implication that the swords he gave up weren't mangled implies that Aegon only took swords from people who had actually fought him (Visenya is a different story, but even then she effectively had Ronnel as a hostage). Why treat him as defeated instead of a new ally, especially if they share this prophetic knowledge? I also question why Aegon would want to tell a non-Targ, when the prophecy seems like such an in-house discussion. I could see that they might have exchanged prophecies, but I can't see how they decided to trust each other in the first place (especially with Brandon, who seems intense if Bran did see him, as a mediator). The fact that 3 maesters were supposedly involved in this midnight meet is very interesting from a watsonian perspective. You'd think there would be more of a record about what was said. Or maybe there was, but it was a casualty to Baelor the Blessed's fervor in not letting any non-Faith literature abound. I also wonder why so many? 3 seems to be a lot! This does give a more complex reason than just good sense as to why Torrhen knelt, but there's a lot of interesting nuance as to how Aegon would have gotten to the point to share it with Torrhen and vice versa. I myself think Torrhen agreed with Brandon's plan and this negotiation was cover/delay so that Brandon could see if it was doable to get in and out, and Brandon got found out. But the revelation of magic purpose may have made Aegon trust that that was something Torrhen also believed and he could tell him and have it be given appropriate weight.
If Brandon played a part in Torren's surrender, and his own apparent exile from the North and the Realm themselves, it would be fitting if a Brandon exiling an Aegon.
This could be what the North remembers! Even if the Targaryens have lost the prophecy, the North remembers enough that they take the Nights Watch seriously & know the Starks have to remain in Winterfell to carry on the tradition.
The starks have lost the prophecy too know that Ned is dead(If Ned knew about this) too noone knows about aegon's dream... Well maybe bran rediscovers bcs of visions or bloodraven (in the books obv.)
I love those choices. I particularly like Brandon Snow couldn't count and Viscenya made her mean face. That second one would/should send any sane man running as far and fast as possible.
I think the dragon killing weirwood arrows might make Alys Rivers hundred times more important character. The question is why no Blackwook or Winter Wolf killed Vhagar with them. Alys likely warned Aemond before weirwood arrows and could defend Vhagar from them.
Maybe Aegon shared with them the prophecy of Ice & Fire and the terror that will one day come from beyond the wall and they decided to join forces with the Dragons to stop it.
@David Lightbringer they eventually married into dorne, so while keeping it in the family is tradition why weren't later family members who could arranged for a third or fourth daughter to go north? As up until house of the dragon the rulers would know of the prophecy and northern importance
Very cool as I always wondered how some if these family's got their Valarion steal swords like the Tarlys Heartsbane, Mormont Longclaw an yes the Stakes Ice
What if the Valyrian steel dagger actually belonged to Rhaenys as she didn't have a Valyrian sword? The prince that was promised would come from her line too.. maybe the dagger was shown to Thorren as some sort of proof of the prophecy and later mentioned in the letter from Dorne to make peace after Rhaenys' death
If this is the case why Aegon did not went himself to the Yellow Toad and explained the necessity of an union against the Others? You think he would have sound crazy?
While I agree with you. I'd also like to point out that aside from the white walkers...there are lots of monsters up north..Giants, cannibals, wildings, children of the forest. Having a fire breathing dragon of two on call in case of emergency is just smart.
This may be random.....but if for some reason, Aegon had not believed in incest, do you think he might have married Visenya to Torrhen? Think it could have been an arrangement that worked?
@@lite4998 I've found myself trying to imagine a fan fic where an Aegon who maybe believes the prophecy but isn't quite as imperial (and thinks it better to stick with cousin marriages rather than sibling ones) and tries to unify the realm without just straight up conquering everything in his lifetime. Maybe he conquers the Riverlands and Iron Islands but tries to use marriage to unify with the north and signs a defense pact with Dorne. Any number of interesting ways he could have played the game of thrones
@@robstewartstewart98 That's almost what he did anyway. He wiped out 2 royal families and the rest just knelt to him. And he basically left every kingdom its previous level of autonomy. He didn't bring any reforms or a new religion or ruinous taxes or anything. He just politically united the continent.
Hey Mr. LmL! I found your channel recently through your amazing video assay about Dany and it ressurected my love for the whole ASOIAF universe. Your content is amazing! And now I'm 100% shipping Torrhen and Aegon, thank you for that too + = 🤯 🤣
Hahah you’re welcome! Had too much with those captions for sure. And I’m super glad you found the channel through the Dany video, I put my heart and soul into that one! Cheers!
Btw it has been speculated that Rickard Stark was planning a rebellion & that why he was making these alliances with River Run & the Vale & the new lord of The Storm lands
This video definitely had some food for thought. Sounds like I need to read fire and blood. I've read the core books a few times but never ventured father than Dunk and Egg (some of my literal favorite stories I have ever read).
Happy Tanksgibbons Lightbringer! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK BRUDDAH!!! He knelt because he had gas and didn't wanna crop dust the conquerer P.S. when are the Warriors gonna put Sprewell's jersey in the rafters???
I love your work; the way you weave explanations for narrative choices with real world parallels is so satisfying. However, I think that you're over-thinking this one: The keen glare of an armoured mommy-domme would be far more effective than prophecy and 3 death machines to keep a Northerner loyal.
I picture Brandon Snow drawing back his bow, about to deliver the first killing blow, when Aegon comes upon him. Instead of outright killing an imminent threat to his dragons, King Aegon tells how the North will need his dragons to fight against The Others.
So what makes prophecy Prophecy? At what point does someone’s vision or dream become “fact” or Prophecy? Targaryens be like “somebody wrote this down so Imma do it”. And yeah dude, “The End Is Near”…I’m with you on that
Torrhen Stark knelt because he saw the Targ. dragons flying around and thought- hell no I am not into seeing my people die for a stupid title, the people of the North have enough of their own problems. Jon knelt because he needed a army and Dragons to defeat the night king. And once the night king was dead Jon thought = I have done what I set out to do, I am checking out. Poor Dany she was used so badly by everyone in Westeros- I could almost feel sad for her -but I hate her too much.
My guess is that Aegon didn't withhold details of his reasons for conquest from any of the great Houses. They all heard it, but the Southern Houses didn't believe him, because they didn't remember. But House Stark remembered. The North Remembers.
@davidlightbringer is there any videos where you go into depth on the magic of the weirwood trees? Beyond the visions? Until now I knew nothing of arrows or another recent upload of the blood magic involved with opening the weirwood trees eyes
I wish Aegon could've made stronger ties with the Starks through marriage alliance I mean just simply imagine on how the future Targaryens would look like and other things would've went if Aenys and Maegor produced Valyrian-First Men children if they got married to the Northern Ladies.
Benjicot Blackwood ordered Tessarion to be killed after Second Tumbelton. An interesting guy steps forward.
"Billy Burley was a longbowman in the service of House Blackwood during the Dance of the Dragons. His name indicates some relationship to House Burley a mountain clan in the north.
Character
Billy was considered the best archer in the employ of House Blackwood during the Dance of the Dragons.
History
Following the Second Battle of Tumbleton, Lord Benjicot Blackwood had Billy mercy kill Tessarion, the she-dragon of the late Prince Daeron Targaryen. From one hundred yards away Billy fired three shafts through the eye of the wounded dragon."
-A wiki of Ice and fire
Robb Rivers, known as Red Robb Rivers and the Bowman of Raventree, was a bastard of House Blackwood of Raventree Hall. He was said to be the finest archer in all Westeros.
History
Fighting on the side of the blacks, Robb brought three hundred archers to the Battle by the Lakeshore during the Dance of the Dragons. Caught by armies from the riverlands and the north, Lord Humfrey Lefford sent ravens to Prince Aemond Targaryen at Harrenhal for assistance. However, Robb used his archery to prevent any of the ravens from reaching Aemond.
While marching from the Gods Eye to the Blackwater Rush, Criston's surviving host was met at a ridge by an army of thousands of blacks led by Ser Garibald Grey, Ser Pate of Longleaf, and Roderick Dustin, Lord of Barrowton. Criston offered to yield if the blacks would spare the lives of his men, but he was refused. When Criston then challenged all three of his counterparts, Pate had Robb Rivers and his archers strike down the Kingmaker with three arrows.
Could it be weirwood magic arrows? What do you think?
There are many more mystical arrows in the history. Just before the Red Grass Field, Fire Ball is mystically murdered with an arrow. Aemon Targaryen on Tarth and so on...
"Alysanne was sixteen years old when House Blackwood declared for the blacks, the faction loyal to Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen during the Dance of the Dragons. Although Ser Amos Bracken slew Lord Samwell Blackwood during the Battle of the Burning Mill, Aly is said to have quickly avenged her brother's death by firing a weirwood arrow into the slit of Amos's helm."
Married Cregan Stark.
Oh wow I totally forgot about that!!
the Aegon and Torrhen conversation bubbles are too funny 😂
I bloody loved that.
Kill them with fire 😂😂😂
Totally agree. In fact I suspect (or at least like to think) that Aegon described some part of the dream he knew only the Starks would know.
just makes too much sense!
@@DavidLightbringer The Bran chapters of TWOW are going to answer a lot of these kind of historical questions. I so can’t wait to read ‘em.
@@jlworrad You can do it, George! #Iwanttobelieve
That is such a cool idea.
If Aegon shared his prophecy with Torrhen, do you think that knowledge was passed down through generations the same way Viserys told Rhaenyra??? Maybe Brandon and Rickard Stark knew but couldn't tell Ned because of their sudden deaths. Great work!! Greetings from Bolivia!!
That is what I am wondering as well.
I'll discuss it next video, as yes, this is the burning question!
Black Alley also used wierwood arrows in fire and blood, it’s implied that it worked like a homing missile
Which explains how Cregan and Jacaerys ended up forging the pact of ice and fire. Cregan simply wanted the pact to be on the Stark's terms, with the Dragon princess marrying to a wolf prince. But everything got screwed by the following decades.
Here, here
The irony that after 300 years of the Starks showing unwavering loyalty to the Targs, it's "good ol' honourable" Ned who breaks the streak. I never realised before, but it's a strange sort of reversal of Jaime, isn't it? The man with the reputation for honour is so motivated to do good but just can't help cocking things up, while Jaime "let's see if you can fly, kid" Lannister saved a city, set Bran on his path to greensight, and may yet have another role to play in the fight for the living.
Kinda but honor goes out the window when they kill your dad and brother and kidnap your sister 💀
The Starks weren't going to break the oaths they swore to Rhaenyra anyway, but this prophecy plotline also lines up with how Jacaerys and Cregan Stark became allies during the Dance because he was the heir, and therefore knows about Aegon's prophecy just as much as the Stark rulers knew about it. This makes the Greens' cause a weaker one in Cregan's eyes because the prophecy wasn't passed down to them as it was for the Blacks. It also explains why Cregan was so determined on installing Aegon III on the iron throne because he was Rhaenyra's last heir (presumably) and was probably taught about the prophecy too.
After losing Jace, it's said that Rhaenyra almost never lost sight of Aegon the Younger and always took him with her until her death, which is why the poor kid had to witness it. Given this, I'd say it's a guarantee that she'd have told him before the end, especially given how precarious her own situation was at the time.
Torrhen, probably: So, why should I bent the knee? I mean I get it you have dragons, but we're northmen, the first men, there's hundreds of thousands of us and if Dorn didn't bent why should we...
Aegon: Winter.
Torrhen: ?
Aegon: Is.
Torrhen: ...
Aegon: Coming.
Torrhen: ...son of the bitch. *kneels*
that's it! And in all seriousness, Aegon's dream is just a wordier version of the Stark words, so the common ground is obvious
@@DavidLightbringer Yeah, "There needs to be a Targaryen on an Iron Throne" "There's always has to be a Stark in Winterfell"... "Yeah yeah, the prophecy about long night and the end of the world, we all know about it" - michael from "the good place" meme.jpg
Lol 😂 I'm loving this 🤣
"Son of the bitch"? Lmao is that how you have been saying that phrase your whole life?
im starting to think the "song" of ice and fire may also refer to the war itself. like the "dance" of dragons, the fight between ice and fire.
100%
@TH check out the song of the swords Elric of melnibone
We all love a good song and dance...;)
@@AlextheSuperfly i absolutely love this
Many days ago i said none cared then.
Idk if this means anything but in the battle of the redgrass field, bloodraven's weirwood arrows killed Daemon, Aegon and Aemon Blackfyre... aka 3 dragons
yeah actually that's a good parallel!
Pretty cool however hate to be that guy.. but was it actually his personal arrows or did the three dragons get killed by arrows of his ravens teeth? Would matter in some regard but overall a cool point he's responsible for three dragons being killed
@@justinq1977
Yes, Human Dragons... not the Beasts
@@thalmoragent9344 lol I know he means human dragons not actual dragons
Him telling them the truth of the vision is the only reason I could see Torrhen not having Brandon pull the trigger on them Weirwood arrows....
it does make a lot of sense doesn't it
I think so too! Which totally inverts the power dynamics! It is actually Aegon kneeling to Torrhen! If not, all three dragons may die!
@David Lightbringer Maybe Aegon already knew about the threat of the Weirwood arrows. It could come from a dream, the maesters or something he read in an old Valyrian scroll.
As if it would work lmao. Brandon would commit sepuku by trying to kill the dragons.
I'm more and more convinced that Aegon's prophecy was put into the show not only to connect it to GoT and raise the stakes, but also to inform us about the story proper.
The thing about Torrhen is that there is a slight parallel to Jaime in his nickname. Jaime did something honourable and was mocked with the name Kingslayer for the rest of his life. And to me The King Who Knelt never sounded not somewhat mocking.
By the way, might Bloodraven killing a Blackfyre with a weirwood arrow foreshadow a certain dragon who spits black fire being killed by a weirwood arrow (or at least something fashioned out of weirwood)?
Or if the theories are correct that another Blackfyre will die (fAgeon). Some people think that he might claim one of Dany's dragons, and they might have to kill the dragon. There are many possibilities.
I like the idea that Torrhen knelt for the same reasons Jon Snow did. GRRM sure loves his historical echoes
Jon’s dead ……..
when did jon kneel?
@@mrcte really now?
I'm assuming you're referencing Jon kneeling to Dany, which George didn't write. That's in the show.
@@space_orphan I never said George did. I said he loves historical echoes, which he does and I said I like the idea of him writing it that way, which I do. 😉
It always struck me as odd that the North surrendered so quickly when Dorne was able to hold out as I would argue that the North is even better suited to a guerrilla style war against the Targs. The north as a larger and more useful countryside to flee to, castles really don’t serve the lynchpin function the serve in most other kingdoms, and there is a fanatical loyalty to the starks.
I really like this theory.
Brandon Snow is the name of my character in Mount and Blade AWOIAF mod, because I've always admired the audacity of his dragon killing proposal. I always thought he was like the Stark's version of Daemon Targaryen. The Rogue Bastard.
I thought about this when reading a later part of Fire and Blood, when Jaehaerys ordered the construction of roads in Westeros. The first one started and the first one finished was The King's Road, which spanned all the way up to Winterfell. Hmm.
yeah check out the Alysanne at the Wall video, I definitely talked about her and Jaehaerys a lot :)
I donno why but I always thought Torrhen kneeling before Aegon was a really badass things that ever happened in Westeros, specially since his people went home unscathed.
I think the moment Aegon realised his prophecy wasn't about him was the death of Rhaenys: I mean, his dragon didn't have three heads anymore. That's one reason, I suppose, he seemed to grow lax on the whole 'uniting the realm' thing and felt comfortable leaving the conquest of Dorne to his descendants, once the chance arose. This I think is what links Rhaegar to Aegon: he realised the prophecy needed three people and switched focus from himself to his heirs. He was probably the first one to come to that conclusion after Aegon.
When I found out Brandon Snow could have potentially killed Balaerion, my first thought was that Aegon discussed the Song with Torrhen.
I don't understand why you all think those lame arrows could kill Balerion lmao. No way it would puncture the dragon's skin, not even bolts could do it.
@@targaryen7029 the fact of the matter is that Weirwood has magical properties. And Scorpion bolts have been proven to pierce Dragon scale sooo
Lmao Aegon Torrhen meme conversation is so funny 🤣🤣
I want more of their memes together now .. didn't knew they had that potential 🤣
I am thankful for all of the wonderful insights from Mr. Lightbringer. Keep killing it!
To prevent war , and I imagine that the North was far enough away from southern kingdoms the diplomatic approach was better route. North retain its culture and controlled region mostly . So kudos for not starting a war where whatever outcome basically leads to same result.
you can imagine Torren and Aegon looking down at their descendants like "goddamnit i told y'all this shit was IMPORTANT"
We need that in a prophetic dream!
What if after being told the prophecy Torrhen Stark passed his interpretation to the heirs of Winterfell as well? There have been some kinks in the succession, e.g. She-Wolves of Winterfell story, so it may have been watered down like a long game of Telephone until all that was left was, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."
Oh that’s interesting, the idea that that phrase comes from the prophecy itself
I think the conquest would be a great movie or couple seasons. We need to see it
Yes I like the idea of a movie
House of the Dragon, The Doom
House of the Dragon, The Conquest
House of the Dragon The Concilliator
House of the Dragon the Dance (Current)
House of the Dragon Blackfyre
House of the Dragon Rebellion
Glad I found this page, dude drops fantastic content.
That could be why Ned didn't want Robert to kill all the Mad King's children! Even before he knew about Jon. And one more reason, why he didn't want to assassin Dany and Viserys.
Yes this occurred to me as well
Wish I could have remained a squisher longer than I did. It's very nice to see you giving us youtube viewers video love, especially after all the hotd livestreams. Some of us just have hectic schedules so content like this is great!
thanks for your support Josh, it's always appreciated!
Lyanna told Ned and that’s another reason Ned and Benjen were so open to letting Jon join the nights watch. Maybe even why Benjen joined to prepare the way along with his guilt.
When winter comes a Targaryen must sit the iron throne, and there must be a Stark in Winterfell.
I have always thought the Starks knew but it didn’t get to Ned. Like the head of the family and the heir know like the Targs. Then Brandon went to start shit with Rhaegar with the “come out and die” and Rickard Stark went to help him and the truth died with the family line. Maybe Ned was told but then why ignore before the deserter who claims to have seen an Other? I have always thought the Others must have a family connection to the Others and it is a blood dept of sorts. The “there must always be a Stark at Winterfel” about the magic and the duty they own to protect against the Others. But knowing may be why he let Jon go to the wall. Could Ned have believed Jon was the Prince that was Promised to save or the one who was owed? Ugh I’m going to wait for your video because you always catch somethings I missed. Great video yet again.
If Ned would spare that deserter, he would also have to explain why he did it and make the prophecy public.
I think Ned's father, Rickard Stark, told Brandon (older brother) about Aegon's dream but didn't tell Ned about it. The Targaryen Kings entrusted their heirs with Aegon's Dream but not other family members. It is a deep secret.
9:55 dude turned Torrhen Stark into Ronnel Arryn here lol. I hope Torrhen got to pet Aegons dragon and that Ronnel got another ride on Vhager. Kind of fucked up Torrhen only got to pet a dragon while Ronnel got to ride one. Bet Ronny remembered that for the rest of his life
I just want to compliment the captions on the one picture of Aegon and Torrhen. It really added to the journey of the video. Informative and hilarious!
thank you thank you!
This is such a great theory to add to the story. I just love the idea of Brandon snow chatting with Aegon. And that’s why the Starks knelt to him. Amazing
6:18 -6:56 The Aegon/Torrhen captions, I can't 💀😭😂
it's going somewhere, watch the next video heh heh
Waking up, making coffee and seeing there is new video by LML, absolutely made my morning.
Been bingeing your videos lately and just wanted to say excellent work. I got so worked up about some of your theories I had to reread ASOIAF. Hoping to catch livestream soon, but time zones ...
Sometimes Lml kicks in even before the coffee does!
Here's something this video made me think of, and while I'm sure it's been discussed I've never heard anyone talk about it: who was the Greenseer in that cave beyond The Wall before Bloodraven? Who called him to that cave, to make his last ranging even though he was Lord Commander at the time? And/or did Bloodraven already know of Aegon's Prophecy and seek out whomever his version of The Three-Eyed Crow was? Like I said I just thought of this but I'm already obsessed by the idea.
All the content has been awesome ! 🤟
4:43 that artwork of Torrhen kneeling before Aegon is so perfect for some reason, like I subconsciously used to consider them as official but then one day I was like "these are just artworks/fanart but they're so good they're official in my book" Aegon and Torrhen look just like how you'd imagine them IMO.
I wonder if the "messages back and forth" between Aegon and Torrhen were written at all. If so, this would mean that even if Aegon's own writings that potentially Daeron (Egg's brother) was reading on the subject were lost, that the Starks somewhere have record of it.
that would be fascinating
You are still the besttttttt buddy thanks for being such a content machine
Excellent as always
I think you're absolutely correct about Aegon, Rhaegar and Ned. Always knew it had to be something about the SOIAF involved in their dealings.
Seems pretty plausible that the Starks were told about the dream. I can imagine it with a dude turning up with dragons which is one thing but also talking about old legends and tales from your land that they wouldn’t have known from the other side of the world. It be very stand-out.
I wonder if Lyanna told Benjen, which influenced his decision to help her run away. Perhaps Benjen eventually joining the wall, to protect his nephew.
Perhaps while Brandon Snow was carving the weirwoods arrows, the tree spoke to him. Could be why Bran saw this moment - where the trees speaking can be heard and change history, despite what BR tells him.
Love the Torrhen - Aegon banter, we need a meme series 😂
Shooting a dragon with a weirwood arrow allows a skin changer or green seer to skin change a dragon. Having a weirwood foothold in the dragon allows skin changers to enter through the weirwood embedded in the dragon.
oh okay that's an interesting notion
@@DavidLightbringer could be a strategy to break Eurons control over one of the dragons, if the the dragon horn works. Also, I have no proof for this theory, just thought it would be a cool idea.
My question is if Torrhen Stark knew the prophecy, how was this information lost to the Starks? Or was it even? I’m pretty sure Ned thinks of his “promises” (plural) to Lyanna at some point, and expresses some kind of apology for not being able to keep a promise. If he only promised to keep Jon safe, wouldn’t he have succeeded? Maybe Lyanna also knew of the prophecy from Rhaegar and told Ned on her deathbed. Ned would have believed her if the Stark Lords have been passing down a secret about the exact same prophecy. Maybe Lyanna also made Ned promise to raise Jon as a warrior, someone who would defend the realm from the coming threat to the North, which is why Ned was supportive of Jon taking the black and joining the Night’s Watch.
But if Ned knew of the prophecy we probably would’ve seen him think about it during his POV at some point, like when he thinks of Rhaegar or Lyanna or the Targaryen dynasty in general. So maybe not.
Edit: OH NO I just saw the very next video is about this exact topic haha oops
It makes sense to me that Aegon and Torrhen through Brandon (and 3 maesters) told each other of their respective requirements to be seated in their respective seats of power and that this allowed a pact of non-aggression. But I also kinda of wonder about the decision to meet in of itself. It's explicitly a 4th option in the text for Torrhen. He neither tried to cross the Trident, as advised, nor retreated to Moat Caitlin, as advised, nor allowed Brandon to go dragon-killing. He knows already that Aegon basically allows all who kneel to go virtually unmolested and unchanged regarding rule and custom (and we don't hear of any other lords who knelt who treated with Aegon first to retain titles or lands or custom, including Loren Lannister who was captured on the run). Everything suggests that Aegon and Torrhen didn't need to talk; Torrhen could have knelt to begin with and come out with the same result. So why meet? Obviously, it's a good idea to learn Aegon's intentions before trying to fight him, and the mark of a wise leader, but it's clearly a departure from the other kings and stewards. And there are implied a lot of messages back and forth for something that Aegon seems to agreed to easily even for people who did attack him. Torrhen's also the only kneeler whose army is mentioned as having given up their swords to the throne without having attacked or being under duress. That could be implied with the others, but the implication that the swords he gave up weren't mangled implies that Aegon only took swords from people who had actually fought him (Visenya is a different story, but even then she effectively had Ronnel as a hostage). Why treat him as defeated instead of a new ally, especially if they share this prophetic knowledge? I also question why Aegon would want to tell a non-Targ, when the prophecy seems like such an in-house discussion. I could see that they might have exchanged prophecies, but I can't see how they decided to trust each other in the first place (especially with Brandon, who seems intense if Bran did see him, as a mediator).
The fact that 3 maesters were supposedly involved in this midnight meet is very interesting from a watsonian perspective. You'd think there would be more of a record about what was said. Or maybe there was, but it was a casualty to Baelor the Blessed's fervor in not letting any non-Faith literature abound. I also wonder why so many? 3 seems to be a lot!
This does give a more complex reason than just good sense as to why Torrhen knelt, but there's a lot of interesting nuance as to how Aegon would have gotten to the point to share it with Torrhen and vice versa. I myself think Torrhen agreed with Brandon's plan and this negotiation was cover/delay so that Brandon could see if it was doable to get in and out, and Brandon got found out. But the revelation of magic purpose may have made Aegon trust that that was something Torrhen also believed and he could tell him and have it be given appropriate weight.
If Brandon played a part in Torren's surrender, and his own apparent exile from the North and the Realm themselves, it would be fitting if a Brandon exiling an Aegon.
Could the three weirwood arrows stand for the three dragons?
I feel a connection here to why “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell”. Maybe Season 2
always a solid listen
I figured Bloodraven utilised weirwood arrows because as a greenseer he would have some influence over them while they were in flight.
Did the Starks know about the prophecy? Perhaps they knew more about the Others and actively sought for a solution to prepare for the next long night
Completely off topic but, cool jacket and necklace.
This could be what the North remembers! Even if the Targaryens have lost the prophecy, the North remembers enough that they take the Nights Watch seriously & know the Starks have to remain in Winterfell to carry on the tradition.
The starks have lost the prophecy too know that Ned is dead(If Ned knew about this) too noone knows about aegon's dream... Well maybe bran rediscovers bcs of visions or bloodraven (in the books obv.)
I love those choices. I particularly like Brandon Snow couldn't count and Viscenya made her mean face. That second one would/should send any sane man running as far and fast as possible.
I think the dragon killing weirwood arrows might make Alys Rivers hundred times more important character. The question is why no Blackwook or Winter Wolf killed Vhagar with them. Alys likely warned Aemond before weirwood arrows and could defend Vhagar from them.
"why did T Stark kneel?"
idk he seemed to have an IQ higher than the other kings idk
dude, Dave, looking sick af. Make the shades a permanent installment on the synop vids
I mean they basically are
And thank you!
Maybe Aegon shared with them the prophecy of Ice & Fire and the terror that will one day come from beyond the wall and they decided to join forces with the Dragons to stop it.
I would like to know why marriage wasn't on the table between the starks and targaryens
because targs gotta keep it in the family
@David Lightbringer they eventually married into dorne, so while keeping it in the family is tradition why weren't later family members who could arranged for a third or fourth daughter to go north? As up until house of the dragon the rulers would know of the prophecy and northern importance
Because they knew it is alchemical dynamite when they do! Not until the time is right!
Before Aegon's Conquest the Targaryans sold Valaryian steal. They may have dealt the Starks the current version of Ice 400 yrs ago.
Very cool as I always wondered how some if these family's got their Valarion steal swords like the Tarlys Heartsbane, Mormont Longclaw an yes the Stakes Ice
Why sell your super advanced sword (probably magically as well), to a people you are about to conquer?
@@jonhauge-evaldsson783 good point. All I can think of is they got something they wanted in return?
@Aaron Gordon Gold, but I was thinking maybe prophesy played a role as well. Wepons needed when the cold winds rise.
What if the Valyrian steel dagger actually belonged to Rhaenys as she didn't have a Valyrian sword? The prince that was promised would come from her line too.. maybe the dagger was shown to Thorren as some sort of proof of the prophecy and later mentioned in the letter from Dorne to make peace after Rhaenys' death
01:54 "Fire and Ice?" I'm not being pedantic - just don't know how you did it without a Pat Benatar reference. 😞
oh man I slept on that
@DavidLightbringer did you mean to make the intro sound like a Jazzed up time warp? Cheers! ❤
If this is the case why Aegon did not went himself to the Yellow Toad and explained the necessity of an union against the Others? You think he would have sound crazy?
Damn Mr. Lightbringer. Do you want people to start shipping Aegon I and Torrhen Stark?😅
"The King Who Knelt"
@@DavidLightbringer 🤣🤣🤣
After seeing how fans starting shipping anyone with anyone in hotd, i can see it as potential ship lol 🤣
While I agree with you. I'd also like to point out that aside from the white walkers...there are lots of monsters up north..Giants, cannibals, wildings, children of the forest. Having a fire breathing dragon of two on call in case of emergency is just smart.
I really need a live action aegon the con after house of dragon
good stuff
This may be random.....but if for some reason, Aegon had not believed in incest, do you think he might have married Visenya to Torrhen? Think it could have been an arrangement that worked?
If he did not believe in incest then he would not have believed in the prophecy. Hence he would not have invaded in the first place.
@@lite4998 I've found myself trying to imagine a fan fic where an Aegon who maybe believes the prophecy but isn't quite as imperial (and thinks it better to stick with cousin marriages rather than sibling ones) and tries to unify the realm without just straight up conquering everything in his lifetime. Maybe he conquers the Riverlands and Iron Islands but tries to use marriage to unify with the north and signs a defense pact with Dorne. Any number of interesting ways he could have played the game of thrones
Visenya had very mean face...Torrhen will get scared lol 🤣
@@robstewartstewart98 That's almost what he did anyway. He wiped out 2 royal families and the rest just knelt to him. And he basically left every kingdom its previous level of autonomy. He didn't bring any reforms or a new religion or ruinous taxes or anything. He just politically united the continent.
Hey Mr. LmL!
I found your channel recently through your amazing video assay about Dany and it ressurected my love for the whole ASOIAF universe. Your content is amazing! And now I'm 100% shipping Torrhen and Aegon, thank you for that too + = 🤯
🤣
Hahah you’re welcome! Had too much with those captions for sure. And I’m super glad you found the channel through the Dany video, I put my heart and soul into that one! Cheers!
LMAO the way this started was hilarious
Btw it has been speculated that Rickard Stark was planning a rebellion & that why he was making these alliances with River Run & the Vale & the new lord of The Storm lands
Hook this shiz to my veins
Hey man! How are you! Love your videos 😊🖤
Keeping the fires lit!
Thnx David.
Yo did you make that groovy intro theme for your videos?
yes, with my cousin Jaime on keys
86k subs, yes! Keep upvoting ❤️
Off topic but always wonder what's that Persona 5 esque music that you have in the back.
This video definitely had some food for thought. Sounds like I need to read fire and blood. I've read the core books a few times but never ventured father than Dunk and Egg (some of my literal favorite stories I have ever read).
You had me so close to actually shipping Aegon the Conqueror and Torrhen Stark...
Happy Tanksgibbons Lightbringer! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK BRUDDAH!!! He knelt because he had gas and didn't wanna crop dust the conquerer
P.S. when are the Warriors gonna put Sprewell's jersey in the rafters???
Visenya made her mean face!😄
I love your work; the way you weave explanations for narrative choices with real world parallels is so satisfying.
However, I think that you're over-thinking this one: The keen glare of an armoured mommy-domme would be far more effective than prophecy and 3 death machines to keep a Northerner loyal.
I picture Brandon Snow drawing back his bow, about to deliver the first killing blow, when Aegon comes upon him. Instead of outright killing an imminent threat to his dragons, King Aegon tells how the North will need his dragons to fight against The Others.
So what makes prophecy Prophecy? At what point does someone’s vision or dream become “fact” or Prophecy? Targaryens be like “somebody wrote this down so Imma do it”. And yeah dude, “The End Is Near”…I’m with you on that
Could you please tell me what the picture on the right at 3:55 is called? It's really fucking cool
ah yeah, I forgot that one. It's The Death of Balerion by Hristo Chukov
@@DavidLightbringer thank you!
A crown of Swords and a Throne of Swords. It does make sense. Almost in a weird way
Torrhen Stark knelt because he saw the Targ. dragons flying around and thought- hell no I am not into seeing my people die for a stupid title, the people of the North have enough of their own problems. Jon knelt because he needed a army and Dragons to defeat the night king. And once the night king was dead Jon thought = I have done what I set out to do, I am checking out. Poor Dany she was used so badly by everyone in Westeros- I could almost feel sad for her -but I hate her too much.
That was too damn funny! I had a dream, winter is coming, Thats just what Ive been saying. 🤣🤣
Valar dohaeris!
My guess is that Aegon didn't withhold details of his reasons for conquest from any of the great Houses. They all heard it, but the Southern Houses didn't believe him, because they didn't remember. But House Stark remembered. The North Remembers.
Awesome video
LML, you are the one!
@davidlightbringer is there any videos where you go into depth on the magic of the weirwood trees? Beyond the visions? Until now I knew nothing of arrows or another recent upload of the blood magic involved with opening the weirwood trees eyes
I wish Aegon could've made stronger ties with the Starks through marriage alliance I mean just simply imagine on how the future Targaryens would look like and other things would've went if Aenys and Maegor produced Valyrian-First Men children if they got married to the Northern Ladies.
George were making top 5 videos now…. Come on man hurry up 😂
Or, you know, Torrhen just saw the writing on the wall.
Ooohhhh - love this theory!