The problem with modern fighting games
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- PG Kizzie Kay gives his thoughts on issues around the latest generation of fighting games (Guilty Gear Xrd, Street Fighter V, Tekken 7, etc.) and how they're affecting how players react to changes to developers do that are meant to make their games easier. Plus, some more Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 online matches.
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*"People who enjoy executions should be rewarded."*
Streamer: * talks about fighting games for some reason idk *
Danganrompa fans: Y E S
*Slow Clap*
OH
*D A N G*
I hate how long it took me to get this joke
I think the biggest issue is the lack of content and basic features in $60 fighting games.
Seriously, haven't you ever noticed that after a short while playing a fighting game will mostly boil down to ether playing Training Mode or Playing Online?
@@jjtjp2469 but I think that make people afraid of engaging with fighting games long term. We need a revival of the genre and for that we need to bring in more of the casual crowd to familiarize them with the genre before throwing them into the online lobby hell head on. Take notice that I didn't say we need to dumb down game mechanics or get rid of the skill ceiling that defines the genre. The only thing it's hard to find the middle ground to it without displeasing the long-term fans or scaring the casual crowd.
That's what I 'm saying, fighting games don't need to radically change up their mechanics when history has shown that doesn't work. I mean a step in the right direction could be to include rewards for ether playing online or including modes that shakes up the gameplay a bit like Golden Arena from P4 Ultimax
There's always RPG mode in Granblue
Fighting games used to have weird campaign modes like Soul Calibur 3 where you had this whole unique CaC campaign that was kinda like a strategy game, Chronicles of the Sword. Or before that when they had that mode in 2 where you had a bunch of fights with conditions, weird modifiers like slippery floors, poison, life drain and some text story attached.
Make all characters have depth is the only way to do it
Be the silence voice we need in the shadows
Yeah give every character easy and difficult stuff. I don't mind the idea of there being "beginner-friendly characters", with easy execution to potentially help newer players not have to worry about difficult inputs and learn the other aspects of a fighting game, but that character should be low tier by default.
tekken kinda does that
I was thinking the same. Every character should have an "ez mode" with obvious strenghts and flaws, but have extra depth that allows them to handle the things where they are expected to fall short if you git gud enough.
So instead of having some chars be bad at things, we only have chars that look bad at things, but are actually good at everything if you are willing to put in the work.
Yeah thats basically how skullgirls plays. Every character has basic stuff to make them good and every character is made to not have huge weaknesses. Plus every character has some extremely high execution stuff that pays off in the form of better pressure or better damage from bnbs
I think besides the accessibility thing with execution, there's a balancing issue when it comes to technical characters.
If a character is really complicated to use, but really strong when properly wielded and an absolute top-tier, then the meta can become "you must learn to play this one character" because the reward for overcoming that barrier is much greater than that of other characters, and the simple character has no (or very little) chance of defeating the well-piloted complicated character, even when the other player is about the same skill level. Obviously it's pretty boring if everyone is playing the same character at tournaments, so you don't necessarily want that.
But then, if the complicated character only has a similar or slightly higher reward than a simple character, then there's no point trying to learn the complex character when the simple one is much more reliable because you're not going to flub execution nearly as often, especially with tournament pressure.
Basically, you want to reward the player for doing complicated stuff with a technical character, but not to the point that the character becomes the only viable way to play given you can overcome whatever makes that character difficult to wield, but not so little or so on par with the rest of the cast that it's better to just pick a simpler character.
Excellent points. I actually think the best situation for these characters might be the one they're in now, being as rare as the mavericks who excel with them. Case in point, I'm a Lee main in Tekken. I've gotten him to 7 dan and I don't regret my choice.
You summarized my thoughts exactly. It's not as simple as just 'putting in rewarding mechanical characters'. If the payoff for mastering a mechanical character is too much higher than mastering a non-mechanical one, then the mechanical character(s) will become the only valid options at high level play and the game will be fundamentally unbalanced.
Basically Melee Fox or Ultimate Pikachu (because despite balance and FGC recognision issues, Smash has always been for me a franchise that handled pretty well the "complex character being really good but not over centralizing" issue, *in the games that were sort of balances of course*)
I think it's possible for hard characters to be stronger on paper but still fail you and be weaker "in the clutch". In other words, inconsistency to balance the character out.
Its one thing to nail the hard stuff in practice mode, but on the final round with money or tournament results on the line when it most makes sense to use it, you might choke.
Also, you can't have a character like Sol Badguy able to move as fast as Chip, it's unfair and very OP (like pre-nerf Justice in old GG).
Fast, high--combo characters have to be weaker, and slow low-combo characters have to be stronger. That's just how mafia works.
My biggest problem is that every fighting game is a $60 purchase with the expectation for $25-40 season passes (which there’s always more than one) before even taking cosmetics into account.
Then complete editions of the game come out when the scene is essentially or actually dead. (Assuming they release complete editions.)
Video games costs more to make, and selling a “complete” game from day 1 for $80-90 would cause too much sticker shock
@Mason Awesomepants It really is not that cut and dry. The $60 price and season passes aren't issues themselves. Compare that to games of the last 15-30ish years where they were also $60-$80 and every 'update' or sequel was a new title and they ALSO costed $60-$80. Like ATD909 said, games are more advanced and expensive to make now, and games would take WAY longer to come out if you expect them to be the day-1 'complete' versions that we have now.
The REAL problem is when the $60 base game is bare-bones AND the expensive dlc sucks. At that point, its def a rip-off.
@@guitaroach one factor also applies too, if the game is good upon release, if the game is good upon release it will stay at a price range for a very long time unlike old gen games that came out for $40-$50 and then in a few weeks went down to used prices. Now if the game is good it will actually range from $65-$120 after tax the problem is we keep mediocre games at this standard so it will stay there for years, so there’s no real way to know what a game is worth until you’ve played it and your glass is either half empty or half full on todays days of gaming
NES games were $90 adjusting for inflation and they were 3MB of content on average.
The problem isn't games being more expensive, they aren't, it's we being poorer than every prior generation and at the same time companies needing us to consume more than ever before to stay afloat because stockholders really need another fucking yacht.
@@ATD909 Games dont cost more to make, with the newest production tools you can easily cut down staff and work times more then the past. Game engines are way easier to use. Most games don't need to be 60$ as learned by the indie game scene. Most bigger games companies dump millions and millions into advertising which is where most of the inflated cost comes from.
In general the focus on eSports will make lower execution characters more appealing and stronger at tournaments. Characters that can execute with a low chance for failure is more important when money and nerves are on the line. Even in Tekken this is becoming less of a thing as there's more characters that are extremely powerful for not much execution like Leroy, Fahkumram and Shaheen.
Seeing Lowhigh's shaheen at tournaments gave me brain dmg,felt almost like season 1 drag/jack
Dragunov *lights cigarette
@@tempoaccla4041 The wild thing all 3 contradict each other. You want that fun explosive shit to keep the wide audience even if the "pros" will cry nerf while using some janky explosive shit. The "attractive" outfits keep people spending money yet like DOA fucked themselves by making and charging a PC's worth of DLC outfits. You want things casual yet deep enough for people to enjoy themselves so devs and honestly "pros" need to see these games as heated pools and not oceans with a riptide. Nobody deserves to drown trying to tread water.
Ive said this before. The reason i always pick up mild execution characters or easier combo routes is because the last thing i want to be worrying about is execution when I'm down 2-0 in a tournament.
eSports doesn't even matter in this situation. Execution heavy characters aren't going to make pro players shy away if they're good. Top tier it top tier. Don't act like any of us are going to take down an Evo Top 16
Soul calibur 6 has done this well with a few characters actually.
Raphael's game plan is super simple and only requires using like 4 moves out of his kit but when someone expands and learns ALL his moves he goes from a simple 50/50 to 10/10/10/10/10/10 mixups that are extremely hard to deal with.
Ivy in soul calibur 6 is top tier and has some of the hardest execution in the game!
Setsuka, even though she's dlc, has a mechanic where she has easier versions of her specials that come out faster but do a LOT less damage.
Soul calibur is a bit of a special case though cause all of the characters follow a similar "easy to pick up, hard to master" formula. Even with that though, soul calibur succeeds in making high execution characters good. Heck there's even a mechanic called "just frame" where on certain moves if you perform them frame perfectly you get an improved version of the move
I love Soul Cal 6 so much. Voldo is my boy. Wish it was received better and they hadn't gutted the customization. Still love it though.
@@SomeKindOfCyborg they changed the customization
Land an Ivy Pretzel Grab perfect frame online, and watch how fast someone quits
@@largestrongman2876 there's a bit of a nuance there. Just frames have two types. The real frame perfect inputs and then the "press buttons and direction on same frame" inputs. Ivy's pretzel grabs are the 2nd kind which is still very hard to get, but not as bad as it could be.
@@SomeKindOfCyborg they made compromises, they werent sure the game would sell, they even compromised on the graphics
Not only do they make the "higher execution" characters feel unsatisfying to play for many reasons.. but they also take away different styles of play (typically play styles that arent deemed as "fun" to play against). Dragon ball, specifically, has pretty much taken away the traditional idea of zoning (basically no chip dmg) and have made the win condition of all characters pretty much the same (run in, open opponent up). Any sort of vortex/guessing (non-reactable) situations also tend to be taken out (Granblue and DBFZ are guilty of this in their own ways). Not to mention system mechanics (in some cases, lack there of) that also tend to either cater to the idea of being more accessible or to make the game feel "more enjoyable" (forced wall break in strive is an example for both).
Should Zoning be as rewarded as execution though? Ryu or Dhalsim shouldn't get as much of a reward for sitting across the screen spamming fireballs as Menat constantly setting-up and mixing her opponent. The entire gameplan of Zoning is to make the other person have as little interaction with you as possible, and then punishing them for approaching, and you not being able to chip them out kind of gives the other player a chance to interact with you now. You HAVE to get close, to end the round early which you spent keeping them at bay. You could also just... time them out, and still win off of blocked attacks. This really just feels like someone asking "Why should I have to let the other player play the game when I didn't have to do that for 95% of the match." That definitely isn't fun for anyone but those particular players and there's not really a universal mechanic to get around that aside from you not being able to chip someone out (And in some cases you still can like in granblue if you use your super).
Vortexes and the like are still a thing, but not completely overwhelming, and things like V-Reversals and bursts are in games to break them, but can just be ignored if you read it. Zato in Strive, for example, will still put you in a vortex if he chooses not to break the wall (Cause....that's a choice if you didn't know). That'll probably cost him high damage combos though, and give the other player more chance to play instead of just blocking the entire game. Don't know about him and unblockables anymore though.
@@Gration_ I wasn't saying that Zoning equals high level of execution (although Morrigan for example from UMVC3, imo, needed more than average to be consistent) What im saying is that, Zoning is another valuable playstyle that is frowned upon (along with others) and has been, at least in DBFZ, pretty much taken out. At the very least, in the traditional sense. Yes, their objective/win condition is to "keep you from playing the game" (in other words, simply to keep you from approaching).. but you balance that out, normally, by not giving those zoning characters other great tools (invincible reversals could be an example). When you get into their face, you are normally rewarded for doing so as they lack of ways to deal with you simply just being there. Otherwise, there is literally NO incentive for a player to approach you (the zoning character) if there is basically no chip. And to say that someone "hasnt played 95% of the game", to me, is a cop out. Yes, certain matchups are annoying. yes, certain tactics/playstyles can be frustrating. but I find value in having a game with a variety of playstyles as it can build you as a fighting game player up in different ways and actually create interesting interactions and matchups in games. Are you going to just quit every time something gets to be annoying or frustrating? Devs start to head down this path, and you basically just start to have games made that just feel too "samey". More flash than quality substance.
Vortexes, and especially unreactable mixups, are SUPER rare imo in new(er) games. DBFZ, also imo, being a big offender of this.
I say "forced" because it literally takes what.. 2-3 hits until the wall breaks? from ANY button/move. its not like injustice where you can get a full corner combo and KEEP corner if you don't use the wall break button WITHOUT sacrificing a lot. Its a mechanic to, once again, make the game "be more fun" by making the corner "less oppressive". No hard knockdown (from what I can tell) if you end your combo early, which means oki is a joke. You lose mad dmg. and even if you take the wall break, the wall itself doesnt even kill and neutral is reset.
In this case, zoning shouldn't so much be rewarded, but rather respected as a playstyle.
Frieza and beerus are still playable, but their intended playstyles are not supported. Thus, the moves built for those playstyles are regulated to combo fodder.
@@ZayDesu There's not a single game where Zoning isn't a playstyle, it should still be frowned upon, personally, and what zoning character actually lacks a way to deal with you getting in their face? What reversal/burst option don't you have along with some type of DP in Ryu/shoto cases, or mobility in Metera/Dhalsim cases? Hell, there's Zoners who have more defensive/reposition options than rushdown/pressure characters (Puppet characters literally having nothing in their movelist under 50% bar and relying on universal mechanics for a "get off me" button). You're selling them way too short, and the only reward for being in a zoner's face is the POTENTIAL of damage unless every character is suddenly Hyde from Uniclr (Good defense means no damage for them outside of 2-3 blocked special attempts while attempting to extend a blockstring. Too bad a lot of Zoners can't block for shit though). Damage you've more than likely matched or exceeded as someone tried to work their way in, if they can even get in.
Side note: I'm super tired of being a puppet character player and having Zoners complain about having no options when it comes to having options for defense. You definitely have SOMETHING aside from universal mechanics. This complaint never makes sense honestly.
If being able to chip kill your opponent, or be as ridiculously frustrating as Morgan from MvC is why you're not satisfied then that's you being mad you can't just be as cheap as you'd like. Not them taking away your playstyle or not having you as a zoning player represented. No one liked Chris G or other morgan players doing that shit all the time, aside from those players, and that shit honestly, should never return.
It wasn't fun to watch or play against, and in a game where you kind of need the other person to enjoy playing against you, that shit can't really fly. How are you not rewarded, represented, or satisfied in any way though? You don't even have to hope and pray that someone who fits your tastes gets into ANY game cause there's ALWAYS a zoner. Also, what fireball doesn't chip above a last hit now?
Vortexes and unblockables should be rare. It's stupid if that's something EVERYONE can do without high execution, and should probably only be relegated to high execution characters, except for rare cases.
Okay, but that's still not a forced wall break and the corner still looks to be an oppressive thing. There's just whole other combos and set-ups required, in strive. There's also incentive for breaking the wall, and not breaking the wall in strive. If you send them through it, you're not looking for pressure and would more than likely want the meter or extra damage, so you do only need to chip them out. If you don't break the wall, you do get pressure, and there's still hard knockdowns from what I've seen (2Ds still exist after all, and characters like Milia and Zato can't be a thing without hard knockdowns). There could also be stages where transitions aren't a thing like in Injustice.
@@hiramjackson8322 I'm pretty sure that it's not that they're not supported, but the fact that a reflect exists, and so do immediate gap closers in the form of super dashes and vanishes (All things in line with the IP). These are universal mechanics. The only way to "support" zoners in most cases is to take away other player's mechanics, because they make zoning hard, but they don't invalidate it. You can still sit across the screen and just spam beam moves all you want.
Fighting games these days are trying too hard to make the games accessible to new players and in doing so actually just lower the skill ceiling, which hurts the game long term imo
Yeah! We gotta find a middle ground
What I don't get is why people point to the difficulty as a problem for the fighting game genre, even though for example MOBAs have I'd say roughly the same learning curve and manage to be so popular. I feel like the genre has a lot of other aspects that need to be taken a look at apart from the gameplay itself.
Out of curiosity,... What games are struggling long term, that didn't used to?
FGs have always been niche, so how is the current situation worse?
@@mreath1114 The difference between these two is that in fighting games it's all all on the player. Nobody can carry somebody in fighting games like they can in Mobas. I think having a cross tag game mode that has 4 players instead of it being 2 in total in fighting games would be a good way to bring in new players like in DBFZ (limited boss battles) because the beginners can still get carried and have fun that way.
@@l9139 see i take the dark souls approach to fighting games , you gotta git gud lol, but thats why certain characters play different for peoples styles. And if we're being completely honest alot of fighting games use the same move input. I learned hadoken in streetfighter 2 when I was like 7, and im still using quarter circles and forward down forwards today. So I kinda say screw newbies because its like riding a bike. Once you learn it you can apply it to every bike you ride
I feel like putting time into learning execution should be rewarded but if it comes at the cost of making all the other characters unviable in competitive play then I'd rather have the balance. One thing I never hear people talk about though is how difficult it is to play against character. Like, you could make an execution heavy character that forces the opponent to do more difficult things like Instant Block to deal with their pressure (just an example off the top of my head).
Developers should teach newcomers how to play the game/character instead of just make the game more and more accessible. I hate this direction because it leads to limitations in the character/game, and other than limitations is the skill ceiling where they just lower the gap for the sake of newcomers. Also, I really hate this new trend in fighting games where they make the game go back to neutral more often while making oki and setplayer weaker. That's how I feel about it.
Many easy concepts will whoosh over many's heads to many don't want that insane complex thing many do (to DBFZ, MvC2, T7 having short cuts to simpler input styles is great)
Dev's kinda don't gotta teach cause content creators do that just fine (yes im for to want them to make training, trials etc way better) or make a smash how to play again many don't jump into fighting games cause "it's too hard" and don't wanna lose to veteran players, or don't know what game has a infinite prevention system in it.
Yea they've done this for years. Virtua Fighter 4 all the way back on PS2 came with a comprehensive training mode.
Barely anyone used it. You guys are asking for deva to spend time on stuff the minority uses and they do t use those modes to transition to competition.
"Making it more accessible" shouldnt be "mash x"
you can only teach a person so much until they hit a plateau in which they can only overcome via experience. They will have to take hard Ls in order to improve and still go out of their way to try and learn how to beat x situation whenever it appears.
Even if that player didn't want to improve, a player is only willing to learn so much before they drop the game because "the game is too complicated" or "this is boring". These guys don't appreciate the fundamental skills of the game but rather what the game has to offer outside of the main gameplay (characters, modes, customization, etc.)
Simply put, even if a game does this, it doesn't mean more people will play it.
Lol, not me. I HATE OKI
I think the main issue is people who enjoy high execution play feel like they aren't being rewarded for their choice in difficulty. Of course if you reward them disproportionately to the characters intended to be more accessible, you've made the game less appealing for those without the skills to execute. So, you need to find a reward for the high-execution players that also doesn't disrupt the balance of the game too dramatically (a straight-up damage advantage might feel unfair, for example). If there is another reward that doesn't feel like it is unfair but is satisfying to execute for, you might be able to hit a sweetspot everyone is happy with. If the reward is more options for continuing a combo string, or an ability being more readily accessible, or another game mechanic charging more effectively for high-effort play, maybe there's a solution there.
Who knows, I'm not a developer. But I hope people who have poured more into fighting games than anyone else can have their fun while keeping the game open to newcomers with everyone being pleased with the result.
Someday!
Developers really _can't_ find a reward *except* more damage in a lot of instances though. That's effectively what those additional combo routes, if those are what you get, boil down to.
If you're good enough at Tekken 7 Akuma, you get the combo route of standing 2 > Hadouken (or Shakunetsu if you're feeling bold for 1 more damage) > FADC twice (which pretty much has a one and two frame link in it) before you actually aerial launch the opponent, which is just more damage. Also, Akuma doesn't pay any price outside some of the frame data or properties from his tools where he might have lower health in his native series (which would mean less room for mistakes, which are always more prone to happen on a higher execution character). Compare that to Eliza, where you have to work so hard (instant while running 1s, tiger knee dive kicks) for a fraction of the damage. Wall carry is good, but everybody has good wall carry now, and there are wall-less stages.
UNICLR (newest version of Under Night In-Birth) and French Bread, the developers themselves, might be onto something with execution. Seth, Vatista, and Yuzuriha are arguably the most execution heavy characters in the game, and they are also considered extremely strong. That execution seems to just expand their _toolsets_ rather than just give additional damage.
UNICLR has generous left-right crossup protection, but Seth's tools, if you're good enough, actually allow you to bypass said protection if I'm not mistaken. He pays the price for his tools with the lowest health in the game, and it's really easy to fuck up playing Seth; you need to use his tools and movement carefully. He's got plenty of inputs that are difficult in the heat of the moment. He's considered the best *IF* you can play him near perfectly.
Vatista is pretty much good at everything in the game, but she's a charge character. And when I say charge character, I mean it: she has charge hold downwards, charge hold upwards, charge hold backwards, charge hold forward, and even hold-release charges. Extremely awkward character, ridiculously hard, but you have pretty much every tool you'd ever want at your disposal if you can use her properly. Hell, she can't even *get counter hit.*
Yuzu requires you to use her stances to access her best options, and from stance she has extremely good frame data on a lot of moves. Played optimally, she's an unbearable match-up for pretty much the entire cast. However, you get into stance by using one of the moves that improves in stances, and you have to hold one of your attack buttons down to stay in stance (A, B or C). You can use the D button, used for chain shifting (think roman cancel), assaulting (a launch towards the opponent for overhead-low mixups), or concentrating (charging your GRD), but using the D button makes your stance attacks weaker. Not the best tradeoff. So you effectively give up access to certain A, B, or C moves while in stance, meaning you need to know exactly what you want to use when you transition to stance or even before you do, like when using a C normal or plinking to C to hold it so you can enter stance with an A move and use another A move during stance.
Sorry for the long UNICLR rundown, but it helps me to show how the characters get expanded toolsets from their difficulty, rather than just a combo route for more damage. It's then on the player to actually use these toolsets optimally and not screw up any execution to win with them. And if you use these characters perfectly, they're pretty much the best, but because it's so *damn hard,* people screw it up all the time. Yuzu isn't really seen at tournaments precisely because people consider her inconsistent, a product of these difficulties. I think that's how execution should be handled because just giving characters more damage is clearly pissing people off (this can too, obviously, but I feel like it's a better alternative).
Well said! I believe there is a way to find that middle ground for both imo
Mishimas have been doing this in Tekken for a min. Clearly top tier... The character's are so mentally taxing to pilot at the highest level that the pro tour meta moved towards simple characters instead. We had a whole year of Jack 7 domination.
Maybe the trick is to get an advantage either in position or meter, something intangible or just not damage output.
Under Night seems to have done pretty well for its self when it comes to rewarding high execution characters while keeping the game balanced. Most people probably wouldn't call it pick up and play, but I think it's a pretty intuitive game to pick up with a pretty high skill cap (the way the grid looks makes things seem more complicated than they actually are to people who don't play the game).
I don't think it's about making the hard characters easy to use. I just think they need tutorials that actually help new players learn the game. Or some sort of match analysis that's like hey, you tried the se thing ten times and It didn't work, high level players do this instead.
I think that the problem is that players don’t care if they character is hard when they are fighting them which leads to complaints which leads to nerfs. Kizzie already mentioned Menat. Another example is Tekken 7 Akuma, where he is considered one of the hardest characters and is rewarded a lot for it, but people don’t care about that when they see him take half of a health bar from a low lol.
That and Tekken players hate Street Fighter and can't figure out Akuma for dick. That's what it seems like to me.
If he's that hard then he kinda deserves it, no? That's incentive to pick up that character. Also feel like a lot of non-pro tekken players just don't like charge/motion special moves.
@@Violent_Wolfen i play tekken. The problem is just that he's a 2D character, so he plays like one, which breaks the rules of the game. He can keep chaining standing attacks for extra damage THEN start juggling, do a big juggle combo, then he has his own power meter, along with tekken 7's rage damage if on low health, with rage art attack. He can jump like he's on the moon, and casually go over you like it's nothing, or hit you from the air and keep chaining attacks, his dragon uppercut that beats any attack, and his pretty much instant low kick, that he can fish out on you and start doing all of this to drain all/almost all your health. Same applies to geese and eliza
Swiggity Swooty The same doesn’t apply to Geese and Eliza. Geese is like 75% Tekken as his 2D tools are really toned down. He has a fireball and the jumps but his cancel potential is significantly worse but has great tekken fundamental tools in exchange. He does have the Akuma/Paul damage though.
Eliza has the weird 2D stuff that Akuma has but worse and gets less reward.
I also play Tekken and have a TGP Akuma. Although ranked is joke lol.
@@swiggityswooty1611 Sounds more like a lack of knowledge of what's safe and what isn't. I get the jumping thing, but I think that has more to do with him having one that's good because of a few moves that are based around the jump. Most Tekken characters barely have a jump to my understanding, but I haven't played Tekken in awhile.
Not every character should be assessable. Granblue is almost there have a base roster that is entry and mid level but for some of the dlc they can be more execution heavy.
Lowain turned out to be the Belial killer. Sure he's not physically hard execution wise cause nobody in GBVS is save maybe Narmaya who kinda sucks, but his setups go from garbage to godlike with the player's knowledge of the game.
It's a different kind of work but it's still work and it's still very rewarding.
"I play fighting games for the story." -Some Guy
One of the factors that would make me want to play a fighting game is what can I do OTHER than fighting? For example, BlazBlue's Abyss mode and Granblue's RPG mode let you modify your character and fight against modified characters. Does the game have a story mode? If I jump into a series is there a way for me to learn more about the universe it is set in?
Sequels are generally easy for me to jump in since if I have already invested myself into learning the lore and characters and enjoyed the previous one then I would buy it. Except if they decide to sell the "expanded" edition as a separate game. (BlazBlue was notorious for this)
Overall, as casual player, I care more about the characters and the lore than the actual fighting part. If there is no-one I like the look or feel of then I am not playing. There are so many games out there interesting characters and story that investing time on a single fighting to be good at it is not worth it for me.
Post script: DLC characters are annoying for my wallet but if the character is interesting then it might pull me back in.
If you're only interested in story, might as well save your money and watch on youtube.
@@s3studios597 I do watch some stories on UA-cam. But as a gamer I do want to feel the game mechanics myself. I usually wait for sales before I buy fighting games in case I do not play it semi-regularly. Discovering the ways each fighting game differs is also interesting. Thankfully since a few of my friends are pretty hardcore fighting game enthusiasts I can play it at their place.
@Frax So you're saying Footsies has the same gameplay as BlazBlue CF or BBTag, or SFIV/V, or Smash, or KLKIF, or MvC3 or any other fighting game out there? Yeah no, it don't work that way, especially with fighting games where the fighting gameplay is the core of the experience. Story is mainly there for context and to get sales out of casuals who don't actually care about or sometimes even like fighting games. You can watch a bunch of story cutscenes on UA-cam, but the only way to play a game like BBTag or Kill La Kill If or Mortal Kombat or Pokken is by playing those games. People are entitled to their opinions and interests, but saying you only/mainly play fighting games for the story is like saying you only play Mario for the story. And your counter was just bad.
Hmmm. Are you saying you want an FG that has something similar to GBVS's RPG mode? But, also includes some kind of exploration?
I dunno man, that seems like a bit much to add to a game where the main (and basically only) attraction is beating the snot out of your opponent.
Neat idea though, but not really feasible to me.
@Frax
That.... was not a good argument. Footies? Is gameplay really all that to you?
I don't care about execution characters being hard, but they should be strong, the character should be stronger the harder they are. You can have easy characters to introduce people, ryu and ken are always fairly simple, and a good starting point and they were rarely bad, but you also need hard characters with a lot of options that take time to learn because people will want to master something and be rewarded for it, if everyone is simple the game lacks depth.
Tekken 7 is a good example on my opinion, I think most characters are fairly hard to play, and the difference between the top and the bottom ones weren't that huge (on season 2 at least)
Tekken proves that the game don't need to be easier, it need to be fun, and more or less balanced (it's horrible when a new player chooses a character, train until it's good and it's so bottom tier that he must change to improve (like twelve on third strike)
That is correct, it's not like modern games have actual 7/3 matchups though, people nowadays put way too much importance on tier lists in games where the worst matchups are 4/6 and they still say they are "unwinnable", modern games are pretty balanced compared to olds chool stuff.
But still there's this trend where hard to play characters end up as "bad investments" and end up being "okay" instead of good enough to be worth to take the effort.
Example
"This character can do this thing in this situation but is hard to do and if you mess up you die"
"Well this other character can do that same thing but better and more easily and if you mess you just get less damage or are safe"
Take your pick.
@@huevonesunltd exactly. That's a build problem for smash ultimate. Too many tier lists and too many people trying to just play as the easiest character to play as rather than putting hard work into a character that's hard but has the same reward kinda.
i think they should only be reward up until a certain level though. would be unfair at a pro level if their mains for past 10+ years are weaker simply because their stuff takes few hundred hours less to learn. especially in bb and gg where its hard to switch main and everyone plays differently
I'm biased because I'm the exact type of player that the easymode braindead characters are aimed at but I've always maintained that execution as a balancing mechanic is absolutely terrible, because what it means is that at a certain level of play the character may as well just not exist, but at higher levels the character's biggest weakness is effectively nullified, so you just end up with a character that's way stronger than everyone else.
The thing is that there are people that LIKE high execution. Plus, wanting a variety of fighting styles is *naturally* going to introduce characters that require more work than others, so at some point you want to reward those to put in more work. Makes sense, right? Execution as a way to keep things in check isn't inherently bad. Good balance is way more about having decent tools in more situations while keeping things fun and interactive, so that both simple and difficult characters can have meaningful matches.
Exactly!! I don't understand how people don't get this simple concept.
I feel like the problem is developers now are too scared to make characters too different so 90% of the cast ends up being too good at everything so people just gravitate to the character with the best combination of low execution + high damage
This. Mk11 ended up being like this.
Ginyu is the only character I think rewards execution in these new fgs
Geese and Akuma are considered top tier for tekken, but are incredibly difficult for early players. Probably because they aren't designed for Tekken, but I think they count
Any dbfz character should be the last to be brought up when talking about execution lol
I personally think Roshi is a better character with harder execution (harder for me, I guess)
@@mud7380 that is what the video is about tho, a high execution character (high execution when compared to the reat of the cast) in a begginer friendly game, like Ginyu in dbfz
@@chellejohnson9789 Geese has been strong in every game imo, but man he is NOT for beginners unless you want access to like 2 of his moves. I love his playstyle though, and when the CPU wants to spam those reversals it really does feel like Geese is a force of nature
I think Izanami from BBCF is a good example. She's one of the most execution heavy chars in the game, with her float cancel combos and drive. But, if you mastered that and her movement, she was the most oppressive rushdown chars i've personally ever seen in a fighting game, and she's at least top 5 in most tier lists you'll see.
I would not say that BBCF is a "newer pick up and play" game.
@@SlipianRage
How long ago should the game have come out?
@@furyberserk That's not the main problem. The problem is that you can't just pick up and play BBCF, that shit takes a lot of time to learn.
@@SlipianRage yeah ur completely right, and that's also why Kizzie's argument is also still correct.
Yep!
Them’s Fightin’ Herds has a great model. All of the characters have their “easy mode” stuff that anyone can pick-up and play and have fun. But the engine/combo system is so open ended that it really rewards execution and creativity.
The skill floor is really low but the skill cap is really high for every character.
It's such a hard game
Just want to point out that a lot of people has been pointing at tekken 7 and undernight when those games has been out since all of these issues im talking about started happening. Tekken 7 was 2015 and uni was like 2011
I think every fighting game should be cross platform across every available platform, then you have a larger player base and can have better SBMM. Rewarding high skill high execution players isnt a problem if you play against people of the same or similar skill level as you.
This makes me think of cviper. Sf4 wasn't the hardest sf, but viper could break thumbs.
She was ridiculous hahaha
Huh, I never thought about that. Making execution characters accessible. I went through hell and back learning I-no. Got my ass kicked for a YEAR straight till I got decent. That is the only character I have ever dedicated so much time to. And that's what many people don't want to do. Dedicate the time and effort and face all the bad and ugly first.
Well said
Can you blame them though? Most people esp casuals pick up a game to relax. I know there’s a “git gud” mentality but constantly getting destroyed like that isn’t fun for a lot of people.
Especially considering a lot of people don't have the time to learn the game. Time is limited and people are feeling the squeeze from work, trying to advance their careers or set themselves up to change careers. I kinda feel like I missed out on really learning SF2, Tekken, MK, and Soul Caliber when I was younger. I don't have the time to invest into the genre now. It also has not helped that I've been dealing with some peripheral neuropathy so getting execution down takes its toll on my hands and fingers.
This made me appreaciate BBCF more, in that game most of the top tiers usually consits of most of the hardest characters in the cast, with the top tiers being (Not ordered) like Nine, Izayoi, Rachel, Carl, Arakune, Izanami, Litchi, Valkenhayn, Azrael which aside from Az all of them are considered to be a difficult character to play.
In high we have Hakumen, Mu, Relius which are also more on technical side.
In mid we have Jubei, Naoto and Bang which are also difficult to play
Then at the bottom it has Noel, Terumi, Celica, Bullet and Tao, which are all considered easy characters except for Tao.
Seriously in BBCF all of the tiers have a hard characters to use while also having 4 of the easiest characters at the bottom and Tao who's people considered bottom of the barrel manage to get into top 10 in Arc revo this year, which is pretty cool
what about people who plays a character because they like their playstyle rather than execution? arent they fucked if they pick noel as their main? also the gap between low and top tier in bbcf is massive right
@@sunthi9619 The gap is massive yeah, but not unbearable, beside the game balance is good enough that pretty much everyone can win against anyone most of the time to the point that tier don't really matter if you don't play at major tournament level, hell even bottom tiers can still pop up in majors tournament level in this game like just like Tao in arc revo, so the cast don't really have a problem here as long as people want to want to work hard for their character they can still be viable
@Angga Antonio in CF the general consensus is he's mid to mid high tier, Hazama is funnilly a character that never been bad while also tricky to play, plus he's so dandy
@Angga Antonio You're welcome
I think the trick has to be adding more execution scaling across the board, so that low execution floor characters can scale with skill to the same heights that high execution floor characters can.
I think it's because characters with high execution being really good in newer fighting games would incentivize playing those characters if you want to win. Developers, from what I see, seem to think anything too technical in the game would act as a deterrent to newer players coming to their franchise. So making games super accessible only to make characters that are hard to play the best characters in the game would be antithetical to this contemporary design philosophy revolving around making the games easier to pick up and play for people that have never played before. However in my opinion I think characters requiring high execution being the best characters would be a nice middle ground for games like these. Since casual players won't really care who the best characters are, just who is the most fun. Players that compete on the other hand will have a handful of hard characters with lots of depth to offset the generally simpler mechanics we encounter in fighting games nowadays. I think that would be the best of both worlds but idk just my two cents.
I think it affect the Esport scene as a whole,they are trying really hard to harness as much additions to their audience and playerbase as possible.
Quantity over quality,can't totally blame them.
@@samurajenskaia801 yeah definitely. I sympathize because I know fighting games struggle with being a niche genre of gaming. Developers are working hard to do away with that stigma but unfortunately it's not at the point yet where any of them found that sweet spot between accessible *and* deep.
I like this idea a lot! I hope developers at least try a patch out for this kind of concept
@@Kizzie_Kay thanks! Getting the seal of approval from an actual pro must mean it's a pretty good idea
Eh. Execution being rewarded too heavily had been something that adds frustration to players and devs.
It's really hard to design a character that is rewarding outside base mechanics because the design intent already snowballs the game. The more items in the decision tree, the more a dev could get wrong and just make a mad busted char.
If we're bringing up so much work and execution for little reward. *Ahem* LEE IN TEKKEN 7
THATS MY BOY
@Skyler Caillouet Bad example as "why play anyone when you can play Leeroy" was a thing hahaha.
then you've got shaheen, who has a similar gameplan and deletes people in 2 easy combos
Yeah but then on the other side there's akuma
@@tobyjones7682 but Akuma is execution heavy so yea
"I feel like high-execution characters are made too weak"
*Laughs in Carl Clover and Arakune*
*Laughs in Vatista*
@@absentcoder4552 Robot loli guile
Blazblue wont really get their shine until they get rollback tho
ACTUALLY, IF YOU COUNT SMASH AS A FIGHTING GAME AND AN ACCESIBLE ONE TOO, STEVE MIGHT BE THE CHARACTER YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.
His execution gets soo rewarded and the only reason it isn't a big issue is because the player base is full of middle schoolers
Akuma in Tekken 7 and SFV is a heavy execution and rewarding character. So does Venom in Guilty Gear. There are many examples of strong and heavy execution characters in many fighting game. Just listing here 3 examples from main gales depicted in the video...
In tekken 7 maybe but again street fighter 5 is so easy there is barely any execution to it anyway.
I've mained akuma since he came out in 5, hes not difficult by any means, not even his extended vt2 combos
There are but the problem is that those characters eventually get nerfed and then they are left as a hard character with little reward.
Sfv? Hell no. Tekken, sure. While GG certainly does reward quite a few execution characters, I think kizzie is talking more about recent fighting games. Think Granblue, Fighterz, SFV, even tekken to a degree, where it is hard to play an execution characters in a sea of crazy op characters that aren't hard.
Random Comment Guy beside Menat no one is really difficult to play in SFV tbh. I don’t agree, some executional characters are still very strong in various FG, some are nerfed, like any other characters I would say, but not because they are technical. In previous fighting games technical characters were not rewarded more than now. There is only one thing that changed, it’s that now FG are patched and tier list are always changing each season.
Eliza is looked at as being pretty strong nowdays.
Either way, the only good solution I can think of would be to do something like what they do for Mishimas in Tekken; make them powerful if you're movement AND execution is on point. A faster, just-frame Fafnir would be lit lol
She’s considered decently strong but she isn’t standout strong like leroy, fahk, akuma, etc. I think that Akuma would be a better example and even then people want him nerfed lol.
Which Eliza?
@@sumthinorother9615 Tekken. She's not like TOP tier, but she can hang with the high tiers for sure.
Eliza is looked as strong because nobody even payed attention to her outside of dedicated players and when Arslan ash picked her up and started winning with her against his fellow pakistan players people started paying attention to her. She's in the best state she's been in Season 2 but she's nowhere near as strong as alot of people will put her in their tier lists because she still has glaring weaknesses you can exploit.
As an eliza main, most of her strength comes from people not knowing the matchup. Shes just as strong as she always been
I mean, DBFZ is a good "anybody can pick it up and play" game and a good "comp" game. You have simple combos for people who just wanna play even if they are more complicated characters or simple ones. If you wanna do more flashy and crazy stuff you spend some more time learning how to do character things, like android 21 combos or GT Goku combos. If you wanna extend a combo you get good with assists and honestly I think this philosophy of "anyone can play any character and have fun, all the while those who wanna go further can do just that" can go a long way if done right.
Also doesn't help that there is online play with different modes, boss battles, and training mode with different objectives along with another area for more "advanced" training
Akuma has seen more adjustments in Tekken 7's life than any other character in the game and he *still* takes 80% of your health off a *10 frame* move if he's got meter and execution. If he's got Rage, you pretty much die. Geese could do almost the same thing until they nerfed some of his counter hits and meter gain.
6:03
Yo, I wouldn't even be mad about losing after landing something like that on Kizzie.
Master Roshi and Captain Ginyu from DBFZ are the first characters that come to mind. I know, DBFZ is probably the "easiest" or most accessible modern fighting game on the market, however if we are talking in relative terms, I would say that these two characters come pretty close to reaching that balance between high execution and being good.
Additionally, when speaking about execution, the only measure you have is relative to the game the character is in. So, even if one were to think that DBFZ is the last modern fighting game to be brought up because of how "easy" it is, Roshi is the most unintuitive and execution-heavy character in the game. Ginyu also requires precise timing and a brain to remember which force members you have in order to do his best routes and most ambiguous mix. However, both of these characters are great, god-like even, in hands that are able to execute their most difficult routes.
What about Tekken? I feel like the Mishimas are the hardest and the most rewarding out of anyone in the cast.
Problem is Leroy smith and fakumram are a lot more rewarding and are easier older tekken games this is true but devil Jin isn’t worth it anymore
@@ShantottoTarutaru How bad is Fahkumram? I haven’t been playing as much but I know how broken Leroy is.
@@goldcrane7347 From what I have heard Fahkumram is just a bit less bad then Leroy on launch.
- low execution
- heavy damage output
- big character with incredible long range
- hitbox issues where attacks sometimes don't connect
- a throw that was unbreakable online (though I believe that was fixed atleast)
Paired with season 3 balancing it ends with combos that take roughly 80% of your life and the 2d chars who can death combo you when they have meter.
@@daedrascrolls yeah, that’s yikes. From what I’ve seen, despite being clearly based off Muay Thai, he barely has any elbows or knees which is super weird.
@@goldcrane7347 fahk was better than leroy post leroy nerf. This was changed when they made fahks sidestep not the best in the game
Jigglypuff in Smash,
Dante in MvC3 Vanilla,
and Android 21 in DBfZ, are all examples of high execution/difficultly -- high reward characters.
I'm sure I can think of more if I tried.
Man I really tried to use 21, but ui goku, gogeta and ssh vegeta are mine and have been for awhile.
My bro uses her well tho
3:37 Sin's attacks sync with the music
Fujin in MK11 comes to mind. That's relative to the rest of the cast though
Yeah his execution is higher than the rest of the cast. I dropped him tho bcuz so many other chars do what he does with way less effort
@@shwn9054 and better
I honestly believe that making all characters(secretly) high execution can be a nice way to solve the issue.
Creating a spectrum of characters where when you're new and getting into the game, their difficult execution doesn't come in yet because you're not at the point you need to learn it yet to play the character. For example Faust in GGxrd. He works just fine for a new player without using any drill cancels for quite a while. But eventually you need to get through the wall of being able to drill cancel consistently and quickly, and then after that there's another wall of being able to properly really adapt to and use any items you put on the screen whether it be in combos or neutral. It's a good example of a character extremely easy to use to start and beginner friendly, while still having eventual complexity for players who want it/when players are ready for it.
Guilty Gear I think represents this best with how everyone will always say pick who you like, because every character has something hard that will stonewall you eventually. I always am a fan of games where the balance philosophy is making every character stupidly strong in certain situations because it is more fun to me. I think everyone loves it more when everyone fights with massive axes rather than weak noodles in a game's balance strategy.
So basically Kirbyism
I mean if they make an execution heavy character pay off compared to the effort we end up with stuff like "Eddie's Playground" for every game up to Rev. Hell don't people whine Johhny is way too strong and he's indisputably demanding execution-wise.
Ideally, you solve this problem by making every character easy to understand at a low level, but allow the character to scale well with your execution. Pot in XX+R is one of the best examples of this. the difficulty for devs I think comes less from execution, and more that what we could call "execution characters" often have a less linear gameplan. Menat, as you mentioned, is a great example. I think the hard part when I tried her out in V wasn't "this character's combos and moves are difficult relative to everyone else" which was something I would've powered through to play the character cause she's tight as fuck. What prevented me from pursuing playing her was her gameplan requiring a lot of less straight forward decision making than a lot of the cast. The same can be said for a character like zeku. I found myself in matches wondering "what do I do here? what's my best option in x situation?" and the answer is a lot harder to determine for characters like that than a character like gief or abigail, where the end goal is always "walk them into the corner" or Ibuki where its "get a knockdown then do a fucked up mixup." I think even if the execution on a character like menat could be made easier, they are still harder to play because they have less straightforward decision making inherent to their gameplan. I also don't think it's right to make characters with a less straightforward gameplan inherently better than more straightforward characters purely because they are harder to play. You can give them access to things that are abnormally good when they make the correct decision in their gameplan, but that can and should be balanced out by them being abnormally bad when they make a bad decision in that gameplan. Akuma is kind of like this but its done somewhat lazily because he's just really good at a lot of things but has less health than other characters. How do you set that up with a character that's execution heavy? Especially since I wouldn't consider that a character archetype in the traditional sense.
1:57 YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO DO MENAT LIKE THAT LMAO
The problem of make an execution character stronger (or any character stronger) is that at high level all people would use it and tournaments would become boring as fuck. That's why capcom decided to change Menat.
It’s the reason why I dropped granblue. Just not enough stuff to actually keep me coming back. Also admit that I hated using any of the dp characters in that game. The difficulty in gear is the reason I keep coming back for because their is always stuff to get better at and usually no matches are the same.
I understand. So players just love that extra challenge with playing hard characters
@@Kizzie_Kay granblue was fine just season 1 kinda killed the game for me with how weird the balance was. Not insurmountable but just more annoying with gran kat and ferry were online. The movement options also kinda turned me off but it’s a very good game it’s just semi footsies can only keep me around for so long. I say semi because your really fighting against special moves and not really normals. But that’s just my thoughts cagliostro looks cool and the game needs more unique characters like that.
I could be wrong, but Them’s Fightin’ Herds seems like a great example of an accessible fighting game with high execution. Its top notch tutorials have finally opened the door on fighting games for me, but when I see the crazy combos, zoning, and movement of high level players, I can’t think of it as being “low execution.” The game gives new players a strong enough foothold to begin learning, so they don’t need strong comeback mechanics or ultra lenient combos. This isn’t to say there’s no leniency at all, but definitely not enough to take away execution and the freedom of options it gives you.
As far as I know BBCF rewards execution, as Izanami is considered the best character, but you need a lot of time and practice to learn her. Same for Carl, Izayoi and Naoto.
Jin was the exception, but aggressive gorillas can only carry you so far.
Nine (another top tier contender) could be played without much dedication, but there was a big difference in how you play her depending on your knowledge.
But that isn't a game made for beginners. DBFz, BBTag, and Granblue were. There's no real puppet character like Carl or Zato present or any really interesting mechanics so far, in either and instead you have this type of character with practically their own assist mechanic in Zoey for GranBlue, Android 18 for DBFz, and every persona character for BBTag.
Nine does need dedication dude.
Her movelist is bigger than releaae sf5.
We’ve got straight up auto combos in multiple major games. If you’d told an FGC person that in 2010, they’d vomit.
The FGC peaked with SF4, UMVC3. Skill and technique (especially in US players) hasn’t been the same
Nah those are some rose-tinted goggles. SF4/UMVC3 seemed so amazing because there was this MASSIVE drought in good fighting games right before they came out. Now we get good fighting games more often so we've just got higher standards.
As for auto combos... who cares? Except for sometimes in what, DBFZ nobody uses autocombos above a pretty minimal skill level.
@@danlorett2184Yes, thé drought was Before SF4 but I’m talking about SF4 entire life cycle? By the time we had gotten Ultra, we had multiple soul calibres, SFxT, guilty gear Xrd, SKULL GIRLS. That was almost 7 years of fighting games right there
People still generally detest SFV and it’s been years. Smug, J-Wong, Chris g all openly admit hating the game but have to play it for that sweet cash. Marvel is dead because of infinite. Tekken 7 has a hilariously broken damage balance issue, and DBZF is rush down: the game.
The auto combo’s matter because they are indicative of a genre that clearly doesn’t wish to raise execution levels. Right now, probably no big deal, but in the future? I don’t trust the gaming industry
@@matthewhall1467 I wouldn't say that auto combos existing in a fighting game is the problem, but rather that their WAY too rewarding. Like, UNIST and P4AU both have auto combos(so newer players can just jump in a match, mash, and feel good), but doing them in a match doesn't get you really anything. To get better, and play better in the game, you have to learn the execution, and bigger combos. Whereas in games like DBFZ, you can kinda just use them to autopilot with a majority of the cast and win, even at higher levels(looking at YOU Bardock!).
I always thought the advantage to using someone difficult is that it's hard to understand the characters game plan if you don't really use them yourself. Kind of like a southpaw in boxing or something like that. But then again I'm no expert so what do I know.
There are some characters are by design hard to use at a level most players consider themselves in. That's the specific thing I'm talking about
This is exactly how I feel about tekken 7. Ive been playin Master Raven and Diablo Jim for years now and Ive never felt as if I did it for good reason other than the aspect of execution. The funniest part about execution characters is that because they are so hard to play. Noone understands them and thinks they are busted beyond repair.
If you take something like dvjs hellsweep and ask a newer player or a player that doesnt ever try playing dvj they will say its busted. But what they dont realise is that playing devil jin against a player who is experienced in the matchup will almost never get swept because its required to be almost point blank to get it.
This is just one example out of a million. My combo rewards are the same as everyone elses, so whats the point in playing them when I could play the new and improved josie rizal or leroy smith instead.
Fujin is the most execution character in MK11 and he's pretty top tier.
Lol he's mid at best
@@yeahboyz9314 what are you kidding me he's top 10, everyone basically agreed on that go look at any tier list.
Mk11 is a dead party game. Yes fujin is definitely top tier. At the highest level most characters can't move or they will get punished
To be fair, balancing hard characters is pretty difficult. Giving a reward for being hard to execute can often be a double-edged sword as most people one to two trick in fighting games, and because of this, a hard character being too strong will feel like shit for the majority of the community.
A hard good character is Painwheel from Skullgirls. The biggest brain character. She is really hard to pick up and play. All the characters are mainly that(except Fukua)
and shes my main
Big Band is another big brain too
@@meikastudios big brain? really?
@@filmsofficial8712 He has so many tools, using all of them correctly in a match really needs some real good execution
@@filmsofficial8712 yeah big band is big brain
Execution should be rewarded; but not if it contributes to imbalances. Developers should be making an effort to build ALL characters with some level of execution-heavy options, complexity, and creativity in mind. Otherwise, broken is broken-even if attempting it has a higher drop-rate than most.
Akuma and Geese in T7? Urien in SFV? Should every high execution character be a top tier?
Akuma and Geese in T7 100% not to mention characters like Mishimas, Hwo and other characters being also super strong
I feel like they should have that potential at least. Like a dragon punch. The motion is weird, the reward is worth it, and it can still be punished.
Yes.
He's talking about pick up and play games don't talk about t7 haha
@SapioWizard _ woah someone is being rather rude
I think under night does this well, you can do the simple things and still get rewarded. But doing the more execution heavy stuff gives you better rewards and feels satisfying.
And the system mechanics are nice
I disagree. Characters like menat existed. Even if she got nerfed for a time she was made n was strong. Then there is G. Everyone cant pick him uo n be effective with him.
That's not true at all G is considered very technical top 3 in execution lol.
but why do they need to? We can have low execution games for people that don't like that sort of thing (I for one have spent over 90 hrs in SFV and maybe 2 of them were in training mode) and have games that reward players that like high execution. I think that one of the biggest problems in the FGC is that we all think that everyone plays for the same reasons and we keep trying to convert people. Which is why games like MK and Smash can be popular and played by non-fighting gamers fairly often. They're accessible and the game can be mastered but the goal is just trying to make the game fun to play rather than trying to please lab rats.
Now, I don't think that any NRS game has done that recently but I'm obviously the weird one for not liking Injustice and MK so yeah. The problem is that as a community we stopped emphasizing that "some games just feel good to play" in favor of trying to attract/cater to people based on accessibility/skill and that mindset has really just pushed the genre into a niche that it doesn't need to be in.
Oh but back on topic, I think that the "easy" solution is to grant execution characters more in the way of options. BlazBlue does this well (but in reverse) and so does Soul Calibur 6. This could be having an augment on a meter bar that scales with combos or by making the character more risk/reward which is to say that their more combo-oriented/mechanic oriented moves are really good on hit but on block or whiff, you're pushed back into neutral at possibly a disadvantage.
but yeah.Pro tip to a lot of the more salty commenters, if you like execution just don't play non-execution games. Not every fighting game needs to be made for you. If you don't like autocombos, don't play DBZF.
uh that whole "ignore the problem" idea isn't a solution. 1. the fgc is very small and we're splintered across a bunch of games that are all more or less dead by mainstream standards (and those are the popular ones) 2. it's a concern because devs are the ones insisting that all fgs should be accessible
@@yukito4200 1) I didn't say to ignore the problem. You put it in quotes but you aren't quoting me...
2) isn't that a franchise issue then? Not a fighting game issue. If you don't want Guilty Gear to be accessible, be upset at ASys if they try to make it accessible. If you don't want to play an accessible game, don't play something like GranBlue or DBZF. The fact that both of those games are accessible isn't an issue at all.
Neither is the fact that the FGC is splintered across several games. I consider that a good thing. I'd much rather the freedom to play what I find fun rather than being guilt tripped into keeping Tekken installed because "keep Tekken alive, SC6 is already dead".
is simping for sin allowed?
@@popcorndogeahkiin3793 yey
What about Elp-
Yes
@@Kizzie_Kay thank you god very cool
The problem with high execution characters is what happens when the network connection eats your inputs. Eliza in Tekken 7 is a good example of this when trying to buffer dp or do divekick loops.
Riots's fighting game gonna change everything !
Yeah... just like Valorant did... oh wai-
@@danlorett2184 Dudes who made GGPO and Rising Thunder are behind it, so I think it's in good hands
idk dude, if the game is easy and shallow like rising thunder was then I don't think anyone will play that game for long tbh
Nope, i predict is be fill will lol kid who dump the game after getting bodied by people and this time they have no one to blame
Even tho Tekken has gained a big casual fanbase, I still think its the best fighting series.
UNICLR is ALL execution and I LOVE it. I just suck at it! 😂
Uniclr is godlike
Though seth is way harder than yuzu, vat or wagner.
@@lordradiance2530 Yuzu's execution is harder than Seth's, what are you smoking?
@@HeirofDacia ???? What are you smoking dawg? Yuzus gameplan is way easier to execute then seth
I totally agree with you! Nobody really talks about this. I mean LTG talks about how hard you have to work with some characters, only to have them go RYU/KEN wake up sweep V-trigger and defeat you. I’ve been playing fighting games for around 20 years...and then some final fantasy player, comes along and bodies me mashing buttons into wake up super/ V-trigger! I suddenly began to realize, it wasn’t “necessarily” me. The game itself was formatted for beginners and scrub players. I’m talking about SFV the most, because it’s far too much in favor of button mashing over skilled players. I’m not meaning to be offensive but...when I saw so many platinum players who were FEMALE! I kinda got me thinking even more, about how accessible SFV is. I DO see this in the modern guilty gear games...also in mortal kombat 11. You also have people preaching about “you don’t know frame data” 😂 Frame data was actually created for people who didn’t know what the hell they were doing, didn’t know correct spacing and were using math to figure it out...kinda like losing in poker...the counting cards (cheating) in order to win or get the upper hand. I grew up in the 90’s arcades. I naturally knew, where to stand, when to throw, and which move or poke would counter another! No frame data! Just experienced play and know how. Sorry for the essay!
Talk about clickbait
I totally agree. I was gonna say Menat had a really good power for her skill cap at debut. Seeing Sako play her, with all the combos, setups, knowledge was amazing and I could definitely see how hard she was to play. The thing is that people cried too much as if every online Menat player had the technique and execution of Sako. Those people were probably playing Rashid and Akuma at the moment, so guess what...
I feel like Beerus is a good example of this. I wouldn't say he is the most execution heavy but in DBFZ he is one of the harder characters to pick up and play because of his orbs mechanic. The problem is, the devs refuse to give the orbs good or even decent properties because they're scared people will think they're too strong. The orbs not only go away on block, but they don't beat superdash, and they don't have any really block stun so you can always reflect or superdash out of them during a blockstring. They made a character focus around a mechanic, but then make sure the mechanic sucks so nobody complains about him, even though the character still requires higher levels execution than 85% of the roster.
I still play him tho lol
Idk if you would consider them high execution enough, but top tiers in under night are the higher execution characters, like seth, vatista and Yuzu. Not all hard execution are god tier tho, there is carmine, who is solid, but not toppest of top, but IMO that game has a amazing balance right now.
I think Fujin from MK11 is a perfect example of execution heavy character that is rewarding and balanced.
If you are a noob who just wants to play this cool looking wind dude - you can just pick combo variation and play him like any other MK11 character, but if you enjoy having more options and arthritis, you pick his high mobility variation and with tight timings and difficult execution you can do much more.
I personally like the way they do it with Baiken in Rev 2 and Angel in KOF XIV. Both of them are based off of high execution, with Baiken needing to react or half-circle reliably, while Angel has incredibly tight (in my experience) on the timing for her special combos. Heck, Baikin has the freaking 236324k -> 6HS to use one of her supers without a counter or a dash first. But they also each have very simple aspects to their kit; Baiken has her 2s, js and tatami gaeshi that allow you to effectively pressure opponents from mid range with barely any execution, and Angel has a dashing command grab (or maybe not because it can be blocked) that deals decent damage, and can help you be aggressive and close gaps if the opponent gets sloppy with their defense. As such, as a casual who isn't spending time labbing the combos, I still have a gameplan with these characters. As Baiken I pressure the opponent at midrange until they get too close, where I then go to mid level with my counter or a bread and butter combo. I can't to the crazy dustloops she can do with her jumping dust, but that's something I can aspire to; the kit I have is enough that I can play her.
WELL SAID MAN baiken from the first patch of rev 2 and the 2.1 was such a huge win for her
WELL SAID MAN baiken from the first patch of rev 2 and the 2.1 was such a huge win from her
I feel like Blazblue Central Fiction where characters like Rachel, Izayoi, and Valkenhayn, for example, are hard to play yet give you the bank for your buck. I think that's a good example.
I wonder if someone will make a fighting game where mechanics are locked out, but as the player learns more over time, it puts you on another tier where it slowly adds to the character's movelist and universal mechanics. Also, lock player matches to people on the same tier or whatever.
Soul Calibur 6 got it right with Setsuka. Her mechanic rewards execution.
i really agreed with the point on execution. i think they should be rewarded, i also think that the problem is that many casuals dont like execution but still want the rewards of it which has developers forcing it out as opposed to giving an easy option to it. Persona 4 arena and some anime fighters for example had auto combos as an option but casuals tend to complain that its not enough mainly cuz they dont get the same reward as someone who busts a long ass combo after hours and hours of practice
I think there should be an easy mode and classic mode or a mix of the two. Like how smash bros has Street fighter and KoF. You can use the character, but you get rewarded for actually put in the motion. Wether it be more damage, longer combos, less damage scaling, better range, or better frames. Etc.
So new players can get introduced character they connect to, then eventually branch out to more manual combos and techniques to clutch out wins.
What about FG's where you have to unlock moderate and more advanced moves? Example: do a kneeling-to-standing, five-hit combo, get "X"; do a high-low cross-up that hits 6 or more times for "Y"; use "Y" in an 11-hit combo to get "Z." The obvious negative is players want all moves at once, generally. The obvious positive is you have to learn the game to improve.
I’m obviously biased but I think dbfz does it well on hooking people in with accessible moves and basic combos, then luring them into doing advanced stuff as they get invested with the character. Goku Blue, Base Vegeta, Trunks, etc.
Blazblue was a step in the right direction from +R, trial mode, tutorial to teach basics and system mechanics, etc., the problem is we have a bunch of soft people that want instant gratification for nothing in return. That's why BBTAG, DBFZ came to be and of course the new direction on Strive, I have little hope for arcsys turning it around at this point or fighting games requiring effort or time to get better at.
I love that Kizzie has such a great analysis of fighting games in his videos and he's also such a high level player that he'll feature his matches against the likes of Sonic Fox and Justin Wong.
Accessibility goes both ways.
The best games are easy to pick up hard to master.
Personally I like the idea of the Blazblue approach. All characters have simple basic shared commands and use a 'skill' input for greater nuance.
That is a gross abbreviation but the idea is shared basics with the best parts being the hardest on each character.
Maybe that's part of why UMVC3 is such a cult classic.
I will say the unfortunate fact with fighting games is that it is a constant measure of reward vs effort vs risk. As much of the first with as little of the other two as possible. The trick seems to be the balancing act
Execution is the easy thing because it is just muscle memory. The hard thing is playing someone like Yoshimitsu (a character with easy execution, for the most part) and creating a workable gameplan vs opponent who knows the matchup. Improving your strategy is harder than grinding muscle memory. And with character like Kazuya their gameplan is so simple, dumb and effective (just a powerful 50/50 in your face) that you kinda skip the whole strategy dimension and replace it with execution grind. There are no moments with Kazuya where you are like "oh, that was a very clever hellsweep - who could have seen it coming?!".
Could Base Vegeta in DBFZ be an example of a good execution character? There's no debate regarding him being top tier, plus he requires good execution to play him optimally (corner combos, Level 3 oki etc.)
Fantasy Strike is accessible. It has 1-button moves, 8-frame input buffer, GGPO and crossplay across Stram, Switch and PS4. And it's also F2P - casual, ranked and training modes with 12 varied characters completely for free.
It has a Zangief-like grappler which is fun and viable to play, or a beloved by community Blanka×Faust gambling panda.
I honestly think we don't need to dumb down the games we have for new players. What we need are new ip's that have simple mechanics but really start making the basics fun. The barrier for entry is the problem
"I'm but a simple man, bro"
That cracks me up and I dont know why
Not on the topic of execution barriers but, I feel like one of the biggest problems modern fighting games face is the frequency of releases. A modern fighting game will be around for about 2 to 3 years tops, it doesn't really have time to grow or build a community that can last long until the new game in the series comes out. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying it's really hard to build a community for let's say, mortal Kombat 11, when we know that mortal Kombat 12 is less than 4 years away.
I think most characters should have basic accessible combos with more execution heavy stuff in their movelist. Make the easier stuff balanced with more openings and weaknesses than the execution heavy stuff.
You could always sacrifice accessability for rewarding gameplay. Like actually useful tutorials instead of "Use this button to do a punch attack. Try it 13 times."
Tekken with Akuma. Incredibly hard to master but when it’s done u can roll on any char
People used to think that Eliza wasn't strong but she's being placed pretty high on tier lists now. Same sort of thing happened to Akuma in T7 at first too but then SuperAkuma showed how busted he was with strong execution and now Akuma tops tier lists, even after several nerfs.
The game wasn’t intended to be played with a hitbox
But also, top-tier characters have always been low-execution. Examples: Yun, Sentinel, K9999/Nameless, Law/Eddy Gordo/Hwoarang, Millia Rage, Kilik/Siegfried...
It's a story as old as time itself.
I don't think law, eddy or hwoarang have ever been top tier in their entire history
It goes back even further. Street fighter 2 Guile. Easiest moves to execute, top tier character.
@@Roflo13east law and hworang are considered top tier now. Def not eddy
Law and Hwoarang are consistently A-tier characters until then.
Eddy starts out almost as a normie button masher meme on his Tekken 3 debut, but then he got some improvements in Tag1 (like 1,2,4,4 that is damaging after a launcher). Then, in 5DR and Tag2, Eddy along with other capoeira characters were regarded as top tier characters due to best mobility (and in Tag2-- [cough] [cough] CH b1,4).
In Tekken 7, I've seen some discussions about Eddy's downfall due to bad frames. Is this true?
@@CapSodaPop yes his frames horrible
I don't get enough opportunity to actually play anyone but from what I've understood of watching the game, Under Night has managed that with Yuzuriha and Vatista. My pea brain simply doesn't understand Vat but Yuzu essentially get to control damn near the entire screen with very good damage in exchange for having to manage stance holds and resources while doing all the usual under night system management. Both her and vat are considered best 2
Edit: oh of course I forgot the obvious benefit you get for learning Vatista, NO GETTING COUNTER HIT
7:20 I Always Wanted To See These Two Dudes Fight Each Other!
I think the bigger question is why should an execution character be acessible. I mean...they require execution for a reason.
@1:25 "I assume fighting game companies want you to stick around for awhile"
But instead of building single player modes with AI scripted towards on boarding new players and converting them into legacy players, they continue to have the same experience I had in the arcades in '94, so they attempt to nerf legacy skills/mechanics and don't bother to actually teach newcomers the game resulting in homogenized volatility in every new FG release.