So, I guess the real question is... what exactly does "illegitimate" mean in this case? Does that mean people shouldn't be exploiting this just because the game allows for it? And now players will constantly be calling their opponents 'illegitimate assholes' after having their lines pushed through? Or? Furthermore, I would assume this tactic could be used to 'push through' a line and then have several men start attacking from the rear, giving a much larger advantage than normal?
Not legitimate in the sense that this wouldn't be possible in real life. Having horses just keep going with infinte intertia like some kind of tracked vehicles until they pass through a mass of armored 160lbs men without casualties breaks all warfare cohesion and tactics. You can reach enemies skirmishers by flanking them... Through the main force? Lmao
@@mollyscullyscully80 Haha,.fair enough. Yeah, if one is shooting for realism, these tactics probably aren't the most logical choice... but, then again, how many players are actually attempting to be as combat-effective as the game allows for while still taking the most pragmatic approach available to them? I feel like the majority of players probably pick one or other, as trying to do both at the same time will naturally end up being skewed to one side or the other. As much as I despise the old addage.. I don't think this game allows one to "have their cake and eat it, too."
Yeah, TW has always been aimed at campaigners and modders. Shame, there is no other game quite like it. If they put more effort into balancing and skill based matchmaking it would possibly be the best RTS game out there.
Fashbinder as is any company, dont condemn them for something you would do in their place. (that doen't mean that I like that fact, it's just something you have to live with) Furthermore it probably isn't easy to fic a Problem like that... or do you have any bright ideas
Although i apparently am very bad at counting, because half of the torax swordsmen where one rank deeper than you asked me to, i still think i did better than the AI. Nevertheless, your point was very well made.
No. Elephants and chariots work by knocking back/down units due to their immense mass, and are not melee units as such. Elephants can and should be able to move through infantry. The elephants are fine now, but chariots are way too mobile and can move through any terrain. Still, to be effective they need to be given constant move/attack orders so banning that makes them completely useless, which isn't the case with infantry and cavalry.
Maximus Decimus Meridius Ok for chariots, but elephants still can get a lot of kills when in mele, don't you think? Besides, horses have a huge mass too. Pulling is bad, IMO, only when it's done with infantry, but I don't see the problem with horse units. What do you think of pulling through skirmishers units?
Not alot, they rely on Mighty Knockback and impact damage to do their killing. It makes little sense that elephants wouldn't be able to move through a bunch of men when fighting that are not in a deep defensive formation. If they run amok and are swamped by infantry and/or cavalry, they will go down. I think it's OK that elephants are used as battering rams agaist infantry. If they could only charge and would have to fight it out they would have limited use. The problem with cavalry is fairly obvious - they slide through dense braced formations frontally. Through skirmishers is fine with cavalry about the same as through unbraced moving infantry, since they are in loose formation and are too light to stop anything.
I think an important concept to keep in mind here is the differences between a "legitimate" move and an "advised" move. If you are speaking purely in terms of a tournament setting then it all makes sense but speaking purely from a quick-battle perspective obviously only a "code of honor" will stop people from doing stuff like that. What I would ask is, which of the illegitimate pull-through you mentioned are actually viable? Obviously it depends on the situation but I never see stuff like infantry pull-through's especially through pikes, so I imagine it isn't something that a good player would do very often. I also have got to wonder how different the cost, in terms of the lives of your men, would be if the units you were pulling through had attack orders on whichever unit was trying to get through them. I like the video in any case!
Even the AI does this. I just finished a Caesar in Gaul campaign as the Romans on very hard and in many battles the AI attacked my front line head on and then pulled its units straight through my legionaries (still mostly intact) and demolished my skirmishers. Drove me mad. It especially liked doing this when having more infantry than me. Charged my front line with a superior amount of units, then pulled half of them through and attacked my skirmishers or my front line from behind. I've been playing this game for more than a thousand hours and for some reason this mostly seems to happen in Caesar in Gaul. That's my impression at least.
Except someone will for sure stab the horses multiple times or the men. Such a move should be near instant death for that horse unit. The horse would also get hella scared, and their inertia would be lost, they wouldn't have the strength to push through 5 ranks of deeply packed armored men after the initial charge
IMO it hardly looks like an exploit, they don't just phase through each other, they are slowed down and take damage. So clearly there is some system working here, amount of units passing is somehow controlled, so it might be intended as well. BTW it looks like defending units didn't get the order to engage their target , they are very passive. AI is the problem here - units without orders just stay and take beatings and completly ignore sides, in 5 ranks deep squad only 2 ranks did any job.
I sometimes find myself doing a semi pull through with infantry. I will have them pull or push part of the way through the enemy line. then I'll click another attack order on the unit my unit is into cause my men will have more men in the fight at once and since they dont pull completely through seems legit to me. Also I will pull through my cav even after the enemy gets up because the line is often not distinguishable enough to claim that its not legit to pull cav through. So what if they are standing there are not creating a wall of anything and a man on a horse could still escape.
Charging down most of the unit and continuing is fine, but there are huge grey areas obviously. If a significant portion of the enemy formation is knocked down, fair game. If a solid line of troops, say 4 units 4 ranks deep with no gaps between them is pulled through that is a pretty bad exploit. Pulling into the formation after charging to get more men engaged certainly Works in some circumstances, but I see that as an exploit of faulty mechanics as well.
i can kinda see what your saying about the semi pull through but to me a mass of men with shields up can push into a thin line because of their greater mass. With pikes and hoplites it works well too. while in phalanx they should be able to push into enemy line.
Yeah, spread two ranks thin and unbraced Things become more complicated, as a denser formation should be able to get through, and blocking off a significant portion of the Battlefield With spaghetti lines is a bit exploitative as well against infantry.
All seems legit to me. I'd like to know if the defending units had attack orders against the unit pulling through, since in rome units tend to ignore the enemy sitting next to them without an order to engage.
Formation attack on, no attack orders. When charging they won't have the bracing bonus, so this was against braced infantry because that makes things more clear.
I'd just like to see if it was easier for a pull through or if it caused more casualties to the pull through unit if after they encountered the braced enemy, the braced enemy then counter attacked instead of sitting there. When a unit is actively not engaging (defending against a charge) the first line seems to engage but everyone else holds back (I understand formation attack) but if there is enemy pulling through a counter attack order may increase the ai response to it. Also I think a pull through of a 5 rank unit through a 2 rank line of any unit, pike or otherwise, is completely legit.
Chris Lee Counter attacking against infantry can work to inflict more casualties, but it makes pulling through even easier, and it's not a smart move against cavalry.
Quick question. Is it considered a pullthrough when a cav unit is engaged against a scatered and out of formation (not the skill) infantry and then pulls out?
That depends on the rules of engagement in the battle in question. Some would say disengaging the way you came is always fine, some would say pushing through the front is fine and some ban it. Most agree that disengaging the way you came is fine even though a significant portion of the cavalry unit is trapped and held back by infantry, as it doesn't allow you to go through a unit to get at skirmishers, for example.
Maximus Decimus Meridius ok but then if it wasn't to get to another unit but just to get the hell away then it should be fine since the infantry was all scatered about. they were all up and not knocked down only very spaced away just to make this point clear.
@@Technomancer_TGG unlike those the camp the red line this makes some real world tactical sense using the weight of your cav to smash through and infantry line to kill missile troops
@@shadymerchant1198 well, no. Cavalry was killed extremely fast when they were stopped. Those cav. should be slaughtered when they were tried to pull through.
@@shadymerchant1198 it makes sense if the infantry line is only a few ranks deep but otherwise no. the horses would get extremely scared and would lose inertia trying to push through 5 lines of armored men with swords or spears.
So, I guess the real question is... what exactly does "illegitimate" mean in this case? Does that mean people shouldn't be exploiting this just because the game allows for it? And now players will constantly be calling their opponents 'illegitimate assholes' after having their lines pushed through? Or?
Furthermore, I would assume this tactic could be used to 'push through' a line and then have several men start attacking from the rear, giving a much larger advantage than normal?
Not legitimate in the sense that this wouldn't be possible in real life. Having horses just keep going with infinte intertia like some kind of tracked vehicles until they pass through a mass of armored 160lbs men without casualties breaks all warfare cohesion and tactics. You can reach enemies skirmishers by flanking them... Through the main force? Lmao
@@mollyscullyscully80 Haha,.fair enough. Yeah, if one is shooting for realism, these tactics probably aren't the most logical choice... but, then again, how many players are actually attempting to be as combat-effective as the game allows for while still taking the most pragmatic approach available to them? I feel like the majority of players probably pick one or other, as trying to do both at the same time will naturally end up being skewed to one side or the other.
As much as I despise the old addage.. I don't think this game allows one to "have their cake and eat it, too."
@@Strype13 what?
They had the same problem in Medieval 2 and it was sometimes banned in tournaments. 8 years later and CA still use the same crappy mechanics.
I think it's because of prioritizing single player more. Multiplayer in Rome 2 is more of an afterthought.
Yeah, TW has always been aimed at campaigners and modders. Shame, there is no other game quite like it. If they put more effort into balancing and skill based matchmaking it would possibly be the best RTS game out there.
No question about it.
Maximus Decimus Meridius CA's priority is grabbing money.
Fashbinder
as is any company, dont condemn them for something you would do in their place. (that doen't mean that I like that fact, it's just something you have to live with)
Furthermore it probably isn't easy to fic a Problem like that... or do you have any bright ideas
You keep saying "not legitimate" but you haven't defined what "legitimate" is.
Legitimate =fair duh
Legitimate =fair
not pulling through
Although i apparently am very bad at counting, because half of the torax swordsmen where one rank deeper than you asked me to, i still think i did better than the AI. Nevertheless, your point was very well made.
Hehe, yeah I saw that. It doesn't matter, help much appreciated!
Using your though, spamming constant movement orders when using Elephants/Chariots, should be illegal too?
No. Elephants and chariots work by knocking back/down units due to their immense mass, and are not melee units as such. Elephants can and should be able to move through infantry. The elephants are fine now, but chariots are way too mobile and can move through any terrain. Still, to be effective they need to be given constant move/attack orders so banning that makes them completely useless, which isn't the case with infantry and cavalry.
Maximus Decimus Meridius Ok for chariots, but elephants still can get a lot of kills when in mele, don't you think?
Besides, horses have a huge mass too. Pulling is bad, IMO, only when it's done with infantry, but I don't see the problem with horse units.
What do you think of pulling through skirmishers units?
Not alot, they rely on Mighty Knockback and impact damage to do their killing. It makes little sense that elephants wouldn't be able to move through a bunch of men when fighting that are not in a deep defensive formation. If they run amok and are swamped by infantry and/or cavalry, they will go down. I think it's OK that elephants are used as battering rams agaist infantry. If they could only charge and would have to fight it out they would have limited use.
The problem with cavalry is fairly obvious - they slide through dense braced formations frontally. Through skirmishers is fine with cavalry about the same as through unbraced moving infantry, since they are in loose formation and are too light to stop anything.
I think an important concept to keep in mind here is the differences between a "legitimate" move and an "advised" move. If you are speaking purely in terms of a tournament setting then it all makes sense but speaking purely from a quick-battle perspective obviously only a "code of honor" will stop people from doing stuff like that. What I would ask is, which of the illegitimate pull-through you mentioned are actually viable? Obviously it depends on the situation but I never see stuff like infantry pull-through's especially through pikes, so I imagine it isn't something that a good player would do very often. I also have got to wonder how different the cost, in terms of the lives of your men, would be if the units you were pulling through had attack orders on whichever unit was trying to get through them. I like the video in any case!
Even the AI does this.
I just finished a Caesar in Gaul campaign as the Romans on very hard and in many battles the AI attacked my front line head on and then pulled its units straight through my legionaries (still mostly intact) and demolished my skirmishers. Drove me mad.
It especially liked doing this when having more infantry than me. Charged my front line with a superior amount of units, then pulled half of them through and attacked my skirmishers or my front line from behind.
I've been playing this game for more than a thousand hours and for some reason this mostly seems to happen in Caesar in Gaul. That's my impression at least.
Wow I didn't know that even after 800+ hours of Rome 2. I just hope that' it's not going to give cheap players any ideas.
In all reality horse in real life can pull thru 5 men deep formations even just walking cause of their mass
Except someone will for sure stab the horses multiple times or the men. Such a move should be near instant death for that horse unit. The horse would also get hella scared, and their inertia would be lost, they wouldn't have the strength to push through 5 ranks of deeply packed armored men after the initial charge
IMO it hardly looks like an exploit, they don't just phase through each other, they are slowed down and take damage. So clearly there is some system working here, amount of units passing is somehow controlled, so it might be intended as well. BTW it looks like defending units didn't get the order to engage their target , they are very passive. AI is the problem here - units without orders just stay and take beatings and completly ignore sides, in 5 ranks deep squad only 2 ranks did any job.
I sometimes find myself doing a semi pull through with infantry. I will have them pull or push part of the way through the enemy line. then I'll click another attack order on the unit my unit is into cause my men will have more men in the fight at once and since they dont pull completely through seems legit to me. Also I will pull through my cav even after the enemy gets up because the line is often not distinguishable enough to claim that its not legit to pull cav through. So what if they are standing there are not creating a wall of anything and a man on a horse could still escape.
Charging down most of the unit and continuing is fine, but there are huge grey areas obviously. If a significant portion of the enemy formation is knocked down, fair game. If a solid line of troops, say 4 units 4 ranks deep with no gaps between them is pulled through that is a pretty bad exploit. Pulling into the formation after charging to get more men engaged certainly Works in some circumstances, but I see that as an exploit of faulty mechanics as well.
i can kinda see what your saying about the semi pull through but to me a mass of men with shields up can push into a thin line because of their greater mass. With pikes and hoplites it works well too. while in phalanx they should be able to push into enemy line.
Yeah, spread two ranks thin and unbraced Things become more complicated, as a denser formation should be able to get through, and blocking off a significant portion of the Battlefield With spaghetti lines is a bit exploitative as well against infantry.
Maximus Decimus Meridius head explodes
I never used cavalry until 4 units of my hastatii routed after fighting a harsh fight and being charged by 2 cavalry units
All seems legit to me. I'd like to know if the defending units had attack orders against the unit pulling through, since in rome units tend to ignore the enemy sitting next to them without an order to engage.
Formation attack on, no attack orders. When charging they won't have the bracing bonus, so this was against braced infantry because that makes things more clear.
I'd just like to see if it was easier for a pull through or if it caused more casualties to the pull through unit if after they encountered the braced enemy, the braced enemy then counter attacked instead of sitting there. When a unit is actively not engaging (defending against a charge) the first line seems to engage but everyone else holds back (I understand formation attack) but if there is enemy pulling through a counter attack order may increase the ai response to it.
Also I think a pull through of a 5 rank unit through a 2 rank line of any unit, pike or otherwise, is completely legit.
Chris Lee Counter attacking against infantry can work to inflict more casualties, but it makes pulling through even easier, and it's not a smart move against cavalry.
is such a ban limited to tournaments or any multiplayer game ? or is it something that must be set in the game rules ?
Quick question. Is it considered a pullthrough when a cav unit is engaged against a scatered and out of formation (not the skill) infantry and then pulls out?
That depends on the rules of engagement in the battle in question. Some would say disengaging the way you came is always fine, some would say pushing through the front is fine and some ban it. Most agree that disengaging the way you came is fine even though a significant portion of the cavalry unit is trapped and held back by infantry, as it doesn't allow you to go through a unit to get at skirmishers, for example.
Maximus Decimus Meridius ok but then if it wasn't to get to another unit but just to get the hell away then it should be fine since the infantry was all scatered about. they were all up and not knocked down only very spaced away just to make this point clear.
I do pull through exploit glitch pikebox ballista chariot on campaign, muahaha so evil.
It's fun as hell to troll the AI in campaign :D Defensive stance, 4 pikes, deployables,1000 kills each. GG.
Do the Thracian pirate factions who field all missile units still get wrecked by the chariot?
What patch or upgrade of the game is this ?
Can't CA update this? Do they know about these exploits?
They either can't due to engine limitations or won't because they don't care much about multiplayer in Rome 2. T
his exploit has been around for ages.
Mannerheim Marhsal our independency war, we all of Finalnd were the ears and drops pf FinlD
not legitimate? It's part of the game
Is it fun to fight against guys who camp in a red line corner of the map? It's a part of the game, but nobody likes it.
Its fun
@@Technomancer_TGG unlike those the camp the red line this makes some real world tactical sense using the weight of your cav to smash through and infantry line to kill missile troops
@@shadymerchant1198 well, no. Cavalry was killed extremely fast when they were stopped. Those cav. should be slaughtered when they were tried to pull through.
@@shadymerchant1198 it makes sense if the infantry line is only a few ranks deep but otherwise no. the horses would get extremely scared and would lose inertia trying to push through 5 lines of armored men with swords or spears.