When I got into macro photography last spring, it really brought home how weird film scanning is. My photos traveled through the same lens twice! First, attached to an FE2 and then to a D700.
Just an observation when you converted your color negative with Negative Lab Pro: before cropping, use the white balance dropper to select the orange film border to get a proper white balance and then fully crop out the border before converting in NLP. That should yield a better color conversion.
Yes. I've noticed that greatly increases the accuracy of the software. I was really frustrated with it when I first started using NLP but after really going through the tutorial it helps get it very close to what I was getting from labs in terms of color. Having a better light source also helps.
Hey this is really nice overview of everything! I usually find that you need to white balance on the borders of your raw images before converting in NLP - it makes a massive difference to the final colours!
I think there are few tips that could improve your results beside the camera and copy stand: film emulsion should face the camera to avoid reflections, you can use a mirror to align properly the camera, shading the space between the lens and the film would help or scan in the dark, white balance before converting would help too. It seems you use the 120 holder without the advance system which means you may lack tension for better film flatness. Hope it helps
A great, detailed video. I have the Valoi setup but haven’t tried it yet and now I feel confident and have a better understanding of how to use it. Thank you.
Glad to see someone else using Micro Four Thirds, your G85 is actually a generation or two newer than my GX7. I've also seen slide copy attachments (including one by Nikon themselves) that go on the front of the camera lens to hold the film straight without needing a copy stand, I'd love to see you review one of those.
Thank you! Note: Camera-scanning (wich you mentioned) is not the scanning, as scanning means examining row by row, or dot by dot. Scanning evening does not mean digitasing. I wish people be more technically correct. Note: Noritsu is rather bad scanner, it was made for speed, not quality.
Consider an original Nikon Z6. They're pretty affordable now and the 24Mp seems to be the sweet spot for scanning. It has a flip up screen, which works well for a copy stand and it has shutterless capture, so no camera shake.
Hi Noah, Just found your videos today and they are great, thank you. Was hoping that maybe you could do a video for those of us in the middle so to speak on film scanning? That is to say, above a phone app or even a Kodak slide n scan, but who can't afford $0.5 per slide or negative for professional scanning. I've heard you talk about using an Epson flatbed scanner and would LOVE to see a video about using that to convert slides and negatives to digital. I've got hundreds, maybe thousands of slides and negatives and would spend the time to convert them, but only want to do it once so your thoughts on using a flatbed scanner with Silverfast of something like that on a Mac would be very helpful and informative. Thanks for all your great work.
Really like the design of the film advancement, it's given me some thoughts for a project I've been working on. Great video hope to see more on film scanning!
Funnily enough, I got a 7artisan macro lens for scanning but have just tried using an om zuiko 28mm lens with a 12mm extension tube, and it seems to be giving me much better results. Also lumix tip: Rather than using the the app to control the camera (which can be a PITA to link, at least on android), I've started using the shutter delay. You hit the button and it takes the shot 4 seconds later. I've set up one of the custom modes just for scanning. I've been forcing ISO to 100, then set the camera to manual, aperture at the sweet spot, and then I just tweak shutter speed based on the histogram.
For B/W negative scan, you can try to use green channel only as a source of final B/W image, and other channels just switch off. It should give better results for two reasons: (1) green channel has higher signal-to-noise ratio (there are two green subpixels in every pixel of bayer matrix of the image sensor), (2) all lenses are optimized to give sharpest image in green band of the light spectrum. That's because human eye is most sensitive for green light, where imperfections would be most visible. The most ideal would also be to use monochromatic green light for negative b/w scanning (because filters in bayer grid have some leakage). For colour negative scans, you can try to put blue filter on the lens, to balance the colour components of the image. Colour negatives contain red-and-yellow dyes mask to improve colour rendering of the image. But this mask shifts the colour balance of the negative towards red quite heavily. Balancing it in post-process digitally brings decrease of dynamic range and increase of noise. Especially blue channel (which is basically always more noisy and less sharp than the other channels) must be heavily amplified, which amplifies noise. It also amplifies the green light leaked through blue filters of blue subpixels in the sensor, which brings even more colour distortion. With blue filter you can balance colours optically and avoid extensive balancing in post process. Ideal for this purpose would be to use RGB backlight with adjustable RGB levels. By this you would be able to color balance your colour negative accurately and also scanning B/W negatives in green light only would be convenient too.
I shoot a lot of film so camera scanning is the only option for me that's economical. I use a Sony A7R2 (more than enough camera for the job and not too pricey second hand) with an ancient Canon FD 50mm macro lens (super cheap). Masks are an issue. I've tried loads. Most of the 35mm ones are fine. Getting a 120 one that holds the film flat and does a good job of masking the edges is harder. I've had best results with my own ones made from card. The Essential Film Holder is also good. As for software, best and easiest I've found for colour is to use Negative Lab Pro in Lightroom to do the reversal then do colour correction in Photoshop. For B/W I manage pics in Lightroom and do reversal and other post-processing in Photoshop.
Damn, that camera blows away the 800 dollars scanner, the scans look way sharper, I must try this. Also always White balance on the film border and then cut it before inverting with NLP, it changes a lot
I know this might be too obscure and/or advanced for a video, but I encourage you to go an look at different super 8 home scanners/cinetechs. Those are amazing :)
I have been thinking about this, and I think that going to a full frame would not have any advantage. This should just be a combination of megapixels and lens. Full frame has the advantage of working better in lower light - that’s well known. However, with enough light, or longer exposures (completely possible on a copy stand), the quality wouldn’t be better. The other thing is that using a full frame lens on a crop sensor gives you the advantage of using the center of the macro lens, which is the sharpest and best corrected. Interested if others see a flaw in my logic.
I used to camera scan with a full Negative Supply kit and a Z7. I sold the holders and got an Epson v850. The Epson gave my way way better colours (with silverfast) and works better for me.
you should try shooting digital with something like the Fuji XT series, has a very analog feel. I know it doesnt replace film shooting and im not saying to not shoot film, but you may find more enjoyment in the digital side of things
I know of some photographers that have been using GFX100s cameras for macro scanning photos!!! I mean, geez, $9000 camera to scan a film negative!!! Mind you, 102MP scans does sound appealing!!.
Interesting -- a Lumix G85 (I have the same camera -- great camera for the price) -- I wonder if that camera used to be Kasey's from Camera Conspiracies????? :-)
Great video as always! I’ve been using the Epson scanner at my college for my negative scanning, I’m not sure if I’m technically supposed to be using it for my own personal photography, but we have free access to the lab to do work in so I don’t feel too bad about it. But definitely looking into DSLR scanning vs Epson scanner for after I graduate
Hey Noah love your videos! Just had a suggestion for a video you could do - delve deep into the history of the Zapruder film of JFK's assassination, probably the most analysed and infamous film of all time. I've always been interested in the history of JFK so I would love a video on this topic!
I own a Noritsu Scanner, and a Pakon and the Negative Supply film holder. My canon 2000D does a fantastic job that looks better than the Noritsu scanner.
For NLP you didn’t do it properly. You have to white balance it and crop it without borders before you convert. Probably why you don’t enjoy the colour as much.
I did not consider the results you were getting to be enough different to not do it. (Especially in the B&W stuff) My old Canon scanner is getting to the age where it needs replacement, and I'm not sure I even want to. I suppose my expectations in getting a good-enough rendition are pretty meager, so getting the lab to scan it when quality is necessary, and using a technique like this when all I want to do is post online would work for me.
@@AnalogResurgence I know but still, its insane how much they want for a product this simple. There are film holders on amazon for 5$ that do the job just as well
I can’t shake off that creeping question in my head everytime I scan with a digital camera - shouldn’t I just shoot digital and save money and time? Especially if I don’t print. It’s like recording a podcast on a casette and then digitising it to upload to spotify.
I 'm no photographer but I understand some film shooter shoots film because of the look that is very different from bayer filter look. So why then subjecting your film to the bayer filter interpolation instead of buying or using affordable full rgb color dedicated scanner.
I just got the valoi holders to start camera scanning, cause f*ck the v600 I have however tried different scanners like a v800 with silverfast and found that scanning as a positive and converting with Negative Lab Pro gives waaaay better result then letting silverfast do its thing with the color
The color neg camera scans are noticeably lower resolution than for the b&w film (relative to the same from the Noritsu). I don’t see why that should be. Difficulty focusing on the grain? Conversion software issues?
Oh damn, I was thinking on making a video with some of this content and you beat me to it. Great wholesome useful content as always! I had no idea Valoi existed... But it's too late for me since I already got my Essential film holder. I've only scanned B&W, but for color, you definitely want a better light. I think like for $50 Cad you can get something with cri 95+ which should be better. That might be a bigger improvement for colors than a more pricey camera tbh My understanding is limited but I think dslr scanning really shows value when scanning 35mm compared to flatbeds which do a good job at larger formats bit tend to be a bit softer for 35mm
Soooooo -- how about I take pictures of my 35mm negatives with a really good medium-format camera? And then take pictures of those negatives with a digital camera? (or I could go more crazy and go to 5x7, then 8x10, etc....).... ?????? OK -- I have definitely had too much caffeine....
david bailey used to use 5x4 fim to enlarge his 35mm film for vogue in the early 60s, the manhattan shoot was shot on a pentax s3, vogue only worked with 5x4 at the time - "faked" it when he got back i use 5d mk ii and m42 bellows to scan my 35 mm , i have a mamiya 645 bellows to scan 645 6x6 6x7
Thank you for this video Noah, could you do a video about motion picture film digital transfers ? It's unclear if a 4K transfer of a16mm film is significantly better than 2K etc, i can see many different opinions online, some people argue that's it's useless to go above 2K for 16mm for instance, others say that 4k would be better, and more generally is there a digital resolution equivalence to film (8, 16, 35, 65 mm) ? Does it depend not only on the size but also on the type of film itself ? Sorry if my question is obvious or unclear but i find it difficult to get clear infos online, would appreciate thank you !
I’d love to do a comparison like that, it just requires the money really haha. I will say that 4K 16mm scans done by a pro transfer house/lab does look incredible! I know some places that will offer scans in 6K at this point and I would say after a certain point it’s not the most necessary for something as small as super 8, but 16 and definitely 35 really benefits from quality high resolution transfers
@@AnalogResurgence Thanks, I'm planning to shoot a short film on 16mm for the very first time, think i will opt for a 4k transfer at the end. Hope you can make the comparison at some point !
Don't waste your money! Many free designs on Thingiverse for free to print on a 3d printer. Been using it for 35mm and 120mm versions. (random internet opinion but why spend more$$?)
A good 3D design with film advance requires some parts that are not free. The Essential Film Holder might be the best value for those who don’t want to bother assembling things. The Valoi is a bit too pricey IMHO.
Not necessarily for me, but with an improved setup I’ve seen people have great results. I think for camera scanning it’s not hard to get okay results, but getting great results is where it takes some work and a bigger budget
I think it’s just the odd feeling of utilizing an entire camera setup to just retake pictures that you took in the first place. Scanners are machines that are designed specifically for that task. It’s interesting to see people create setups and accessories that allow for this to be done though.
When I got into macro photography last spring, it really brought home how weird film scanning is. My photos traveled through the same lens twice! First, attached to an FE2 and then to a D700.
Just an observation when you converted your color negative with Negative Lab Pro: before cropping, use the white balance dropper to select the orange film border to get a proper white balance and then fully crop out the border before converting in NLP. That should yield a better color conversion.
I’ve experimented with that as well! It can improve results for sure. I’m still learning the ins and outs of the plug-in.
Yes. I've noticed that greatly increases the accuracy of the software. I was really frustrated with it when I first started using NLP but after really going through the tutorial it helps get it very close to what I was getting from labs in terms of color. Having a better light source also helps.
I am a simple woman. I see a new Analog Resurgence video, I click and leave a like.
simple man here. same 🌝
Hey this is really nice overview of everything! I usually find that you need to white balance on the borders of your raw images before converting in NLP - it makes a massive difference to the final colours!
I think there are few tips that could improve your results beside the camera and copy stand: film emulsion should face the camera to avoid reflections, you can use a mirror to align properly the camera, shading the space between the lens and the film would help or scan in the dark, white balance before converting would help too. It seems you use the 120 holder without the advance system which means you may lack tension for better film flatness. Hope it helps
Guess I just found another use for my Canon 77D. Now I just need to learn how to develop film and not just keep buying analog cameras...
A great, detailed video. I have the Valoi setup but haven’t tried it yet and now I feel confident and have a better understanding of how to use it. Thank you.
Glad to see someone else using Micro Four Thirds, your G85 is actually a generation or two newer than my GX7. I've also seen slide copy attachments (including one by Nikon themselves) that go on the front of the camera lens to hold the film straight without needing a copy stand, I'd love to see you review one of those.
This is very interesting, ill need to get one
Thank you!
Note: Camera-scanning (wich you mentioned) is not the scanning, as scanning means examining row by row, or dot by dot. Scanning evening does not mean digitasing. I wish people be more technically correct.
Note: Noritsu is rather bad scanner, it was made for speed, not quality.
Consider an original Nikon Z6. They're pretty affordable now and the 24Mp seems to be the sweet spot for scanning. It has a flip up screen, which works well for a copy stand and it has shutterless capture, so no camera shake.
I remember seeing you tease some more regular 8 content a few months ago, can't wait for that!
Hi Noah, Just found your videos today and they are great, thank you. Was hoping that maybe you could do a video for those of us in the middle so to speak on film scanning? That is to say, above a phone app or even a Kodak slide n scan, but who can't afford $0.5 per slide or negative for professional scanning. I've heard you talk about using an Epson flatbed scanner and would LOVE to see a video about using that to convert slides and negatives to digital. I've got hundreds, maybe thousands of slides and negatives and would spend the time to convert them, but only want to do it once so your thoughts on using a flatbed scanner with Silverfast of something like that on a Mac would be very helpful and informative. Thanks for all your great work.
Really like the design of the film advancement, it's given me some thoughts for a project I've been working on. Great video hope to see more on film scanning!
Very very honest and fair comments, Noah.
Funnily enough, I got a 7artisan macro lens for scanning but have just tried using an om zuiko 28mm lens with a 12mm extension tube, and it seems to be giving me much better results.
Also lumix tip: Rather than using the the app to control the camera (which can be a PITA to link, at least on android), I've started using the shutter delay. You hit the button and it takes the shot 4 seconds later. I've set up one of the custom modes just for scanning. I've been forcing ISO to 100, then set the camera to manual, aperture at the sweet spot, and then I just tweak shutter speed based on the histogram.
For B/W negative scan, you can try to use green channel only as a source of final B/W image, and other channels just switch off. It should give better results for two reasons: (1) green channel has higher signal-to-noise ratio (there are two green subpixels in every pixel of bayer matrix of the image sensor), (2) all lenses are optimized to give sharpest image in green band of the light spectrum. That's because human eye is most sensitive for green light, where imperfections would be most visible. The most ideal would also be to use monochromatic green light for negative b/w scanning (because filters in bayer grid have some leakage).
For colour negative scans, you can try to put blue filter on the lens, to balance the colour components of the image. Colour negatives contain red-and-yellow dyes mask to improve colour rendering of the image. But this mask shifts the colour balance of the negative towards red quite heavily. Balancing it in post-process digitally brings decrease of dynamic range and increase of noise. Especially blue channel (which is basically always more noisy and less sharp than the other channels) must be heavily amplified, which amplifies noise. It also amplifies the green light leaked through blue filters of blue subpixels in the sensor, which brings even more colour distortion. With blue filter you can balance colours optically and avoid extensive balancing in post process.
Ideal for this purpose would be to use RGB backlight with adjustable RGB levels. By this you would be able to color balance your colour negative accurately and also scanning B/W negatives in green light only would be convenient too.
I shoot a lot of film so camera scanning is the only option for me that's economical. I use a Sony A7R2 (more than enough camera for the job and not too pricey second hand) with an ancient Canon FD 50mm macro lens (super cheap). Masks are an issue. I've tried loads. Most of the 35mm ones are fine. Getting a 120 one that holds the film flat and does a good job of masking the edges is harder. I've had best results with my own ones made from card. The Essential Film Holder is also good. As for software, best and easiest I've found for colour is to use Negative Lab Pro in Lightroom to do the reversal then do colour correction in Photoshop. For B/W I manage pics in Lightroom and do reversal and other post-processing in Photoshop.
My favorite photography channel on UA-cam, idk why googles algorithm didn't bring me earlier 🧐🤔🤔
Do a video on projecting slides please maybe glass vs glassless slides?
Damn, that camera blows away the 800 dollars scanner, the scans look way sharper, I must try this. Also always White balance on the film border and then cut it before inverting with NLP, it changes a lot
I know this might be too obscure and/or advanced for a video, but I encourage you to go an look at different super 8 home scanners/cinetechs. Those are amazing :)
Definitely someday! It’s just something that requires a lot of different things and the money to appropriately show things off.
@@AnalogResurgence Absolutely, I just like to watch them because they're heckin' cool. Thought others here might be interested.
I've looked into those for my in-laws' home movies, but sadly it looks like none of them will convert the sound on them.
I have been thinking about this, and I think that going to a full frame would not have any advantage. This should just be a combination of megapixels and lens. Full frame has the advantage of working better in lower light - that’s well known. However, with enough light, or longer exposures (completely possible on a copy stand), the quality wouldn’t be better.
The other thing is that using a full frame lens on a crop sensor gives you the advantage of using the center of the macro lens, which is the sharpest and best corrected.
Interested if others see a flaw in my logic.
I used to camera scan with a full Negative Supply kit and a Z7. I sold the holders and got an Epson v850. The Epson gave my way way better colours (with silverfast) and works better for me.
you should try shooting digital with something like the Fuji XT series, has a very analog feel. I know it doesnt replace film shooting and im not saying to not shoot film, but you may find more enjoyment in the digital side of things
I know of some photographers that have been using GFX100s cameras for macro scanning photos!!! I mean, geez, $9000 camera to scan a film negative!!! Mind you, 102MP scans does sound appealing!!.
Interesting -- a Lumix G85 (I have the same camera -- great camera for the price) -- I wonder if that camera used to be Kasey's from Camera Conspiracies????? :-)
Great video as always! I’ve been using the Epson scanner at my college for my negative scanning, I’m not sure if I’m technically supposed to be using it for my own personal photography, but we have free access to the lab to do work in so I don’t feel too bad about it. But definitely looking into DSLR scanning vs Epson scanner for after I graduate
Hey Noah love your videos! Just had a suggestion for a video you could do - delve deep into the history of the Zapruder film of JFK's assassination, probably the most analysed and infamous film of all time. I've always been interested in the history of JFK so I would love a video on this topic!
The subject serms pretty daunting, but as someone who also shoots instant film, I think a flatbed scanner might be a better fit for me.
I own a Noritsu Scanner, and a Pakon and the Negative Supply film holder. My canon 2000D does a fantastic job that looks better than the Noritsu scanner.
oh cool! after this i have just. more questions
For NLP you didn’t do it properly. You have to white balance it and crop it without borders before you convert. Probably why you don’t enjoy the colour as much.
I’ve done some further experiments with NLP and in general I find it takes some fine tuning off course to get results I’m happy with
@@AnalogResurgence Of course like most processes. I am just saying you would get better results if you did it as they designed it.
Pacific Image PrimeFilm XAs Super Edition is another super-duper 35mm film scanner.
Have you had some experience with a Plustek scanner? They are pretty expensive but they claim to be pretty good.
Thx for this video
Any tips for scanning with iOS app?
I did not consider the results you were getting to be enough different to not do it. (Especially in the B&W stuff) My old Canon scanner is getting to the age where it needs replacement, and I'm not sure I even want to. I suppose my expectations in getting a good-enough rendition are pretty meager, so getting the lab to scan it when quality is necessary, and using a technique like this when all I want to do is post online would work for me.
You know what works just as well, a lens hood placed on top of a phone or tablet :))
Not if your film is particularly curly!
@@AnalogResurgence I know but still, its insane how much they want for a product this simple. There are film holders on amazon for 5$ that do the job just as well
I've been suspicious of DSLR scanning but this is really interesting.
Suspicious? It’s faster and can be sharper than flat bed scanning.
I've seen results far better from flatbeds
I can’t shake off that creeping question in my head everytime I scan with a digital camera - shouldn’t I just shoot digital and save money and time? Especially if I don’t print.
It’s like recording a podcast on a casette and then digitising it to upload to spotify.
Do you feel that way when you scan your film with a scanner as well?
@@EM-ve9bh I would have to have one first. But most probably.
@ 10:28 is the lab scan yielding more details and less contrast than both other methods?
It’s all about the base
Why are you buy software to convert negatives when you can just flip the curve in lightroom?
I 'm no photographer but I understand some film shooter shoots film because of the look that is very different from bayer filter look. So why then subjecting your film to the bayer filter interpolation instead of buying or using affordable full rgb color dedicated scanner.
What are the actual dimensions of the film holders (both external and of the frame opening)?
What is a "very medium amount"? :D Thanks for the video. (Wet)Scanning a tone on an Epson.
I just got the valoi holders to start camera scanning, cause f*ck the v600
I have however tried different scanners like a v800 with silverfast and found that scanning as a positive and converting with Negative Lab Pro gives waaaay better result then letting silverfast do its thing with the color
The color neg camera scans are noticeably lower resolution than for the b&w film (relative to the same from the Noritsu). I don’t see why that should be. Difficulty focusing on the grain? Conversion software issues?
It's probably realted to the Bayer filtering
Oh damn, I was thinking on making a video with some of this content and you beat me to it. Great wholesome useful content as always!
I had no idea Valoi existed... But it's too late for me since I already got my Essential film holder. I've only scanned B&W, but for color, you definitely want a better light. I think like for $50 Cad you can get something with cri 95+ which should be better. That might be a bigger improvement for colors than a more pricey camera tbh
My understanding is limited but I think dslr scanning really shows value when scanning 35mm compared to flatbeds which do a good job at larger formats bit tend to be a bit softer for 35mm
Soooooo -- how about I take pictures of my 35mm negatives with a really good medium-format camera? And then take pictures of those negatives with a digital camera? (or I could go more crazy and go to 5x7, then 8x10, etc....).... ?????? OK -- I have definitely had too much caffeine....
david bailey used to use 5x4 fim to enlarge his 35mm film for vogue in the early 60s, the manhattan shoot was shot on a pentax s3, vogue only worked with 5x4 at the time - "faked" it when he got back
i use 5d mk ii and m42 bellows to scan my 35 mm , i have a mamiya 645 bellows to scan 645 6x6 6x7
Anything for copying mounted slides
Not at the moment with Valoi system
Thank you for this video Noah, could you do a video about motion picture film digital transfers ? It's unclear if a 4K transfer of a16mm film is significantly better than 2K etc, i can see many different opinions online, some people argue that's it's useless to go above 2K for 16mm for instance, others say that 4k would be better, and more generally is there a digital resolution equivalence to film (8, 16, 35, 65 mm) ? Does it depend not only on the size but also on the type of film itself ? Sorry if my question is obvious or unclear but i find it difficult to get clear infos online, would appreciate thank you !
I’d love to do a comparison like that, it just requires the money really haha. I will say that 4K 16mm scans done by a pro transfer house/lab does look incredible! I know some places that will offer scans in 6K at this point and I would say after a certain point it’s not the most necessary for something as small as super 8, but 16 and definitely 35 really benefits from quality high resolution transfers
@@AnalogResurgence Thanks, I'm planning to shoot a short film on 16mm for the very first time, think i will opt for a 4k transfer at the end. Hope you can make the comparison at some point !
I doubt your camera is introducing grain keep in mind noritsu does sharpening and nr often automatically
Im just using my flatbed scanner until i can get an enlarger.
Instead of using plugins for color its much better to learn how to properly color correct.
Don't waste your money! Many free designs on Thingiverse for free to print on a 3d printer. Been using it for 35mm and 120mm versions. (random internet opinion but why spend more$$?)
That can of course be true! I just don’t own a 3D printer. And supporting this community encourages growth!
A good 3D design with film advance requires some parts that are not free. The Essential Film Holder might be the best value for those who don’t want to bother assembling things. The Valoi is a bit too pricey IMHO.
I've made much better one for much cheaper. Thinking on automatic advance now and proper air dust removal
I call it digitizing because there is no scanner involved.
So, no color camera scanning?
Not necessarily for me, but with an improved setup I’ve seen people have great results. I think for camera scanning it’s not hard to get okay results, but getting great results is where it takes some work and a bigger budget
@@AnalogResurgence thank you! I was thinking to digitize the whole family album this way, but It would really take a lot of time
I really don't understand what's so weird about taking a digital photo of a negative/positive? Your scanner does the same thing only slower.
I think it’s just the odd feeling of utilizing an entire camera setup to just retake pictures that you took in the first place. Scanners are machines that are designed specifically for that task. It’s interesting to see people create setups and accessories that allow for this to be done though.
"I am not made of money." - presents a ridiculously overpriced piece of plastic.