Good discussion, as a Pro Tools user and Apollo (16) for over ten years now, I can tell you that the compelling reason today for a UA Apollo with DSP is not about tracking thru plugins, but it’s all about latency during tracking. I’m a professional drummer that does many sessions for clients remotely at my home studio. I am extremely sensitive to latency and using Apollo console to record with no perceived latency is critical. I am also a Mac user, Mac Studio M2 Ultimate.
Same as these guys, ProTools, UA X Racks Semi-Professional Guitarist, Bass,Keys, Building contractor & 3rd gen cabinet maker Latency is Imperceivable since using Apollo iMac 5k last before silicone m1 was released, definitely upgrading to the Mac Studio after I get my moneys worth out of this 4 year old machine which makes it a dinosaur by Apple standards But $6500 investment there, just bad timing Also admire your build handy works
I think there are 2 ways of looking at DSP, as an engineer/producer and as an artist. There are vocalists who rely on having a processed sound to bring out the best in their performance. I myself am a voice over and I find that my performance is also better when I'm hearing the processing as I record. Of course this can be done with hardware going in, but then you're committing to tape. The beauty of DSP in these devices is the ability to have the processing in the headphones only and send the raw signal to the DAW. Just my take on it all.
Apollos and UA plugins are fantastic. DSP is really solid to use, low latency and runs really well. Now you can run native too, they are better together so you don’t run out of processing UA probably should also have a more universal converter without DSP, that’s a fair point
Barry, Spunkafellic made a comment about why would people would want to track with a plugin printed. So to be clear, you have the option to print the plug-in or simply listen to it while you are tracking but not print it. Except for the unison slot. The unison slot is always printed by its nature. This includes many Neve and other preamps et cetera. There’s a pre-and post switch. And that is available track by track or on the whole recording. So some of the plug-ins, that I print when I record are some of the excellent unison slot amplifiers simulations that UAD has. I use a DI so I can also capture the raw signal on another track in case I want to re-amp later. I just felt that explanation was needed in case some people have gotten the wrong idea. I like your channel
Thank you - yes! This is the entire idea of Unison slot as UA brilliance of design. Could Barry be missing this concept? I tend to doubt it but one never knows
@9:57 Techinically speaking, I agree with you RE, sonically identical. However, printing with a nice "sweet" sounding plugin chain may influence the performance and therefore give results that are sonically "better", subjectively speaking. Vibe matters while tracking. But whatever works
Honestly. UAD's realtime autotune has me hooked. I hate how autotune sounds in low latency mode directly through the daw when tracking and the fact that I can run a 1073 and autotune and print it is a Godsend.
How can a realtime autotune sound better than the same algorithm with latency? UADs SHARC chips and your CPU have the same theoretical limits in terms of latency, it’s not like UAD cards can magically run something in zero latency/realtime?
@@Clarity-808 Idek tbh. It just does as blunt as that sounds (not trying to be I promise!). It’s very difficult *for me* to record into autotune in your daw (cpu) w/o using low latency mode which sounds worse and ruins my inspiration while recording. I guess the shark chips and the way uad process stuff through apollo is just more tailored to the plugin I guess
DSP makes most sense for one thing:routing /monitoring during recording. Singer wants the backing track or their voice brighter or mellower - there you go. Headphones are too muddy - corrected. Different speakers or headphones each with their own tuning / correction on different outputs, different monitor mixes. Metric Halo's MIO console does all that and more. It's totally flexible and you can basically build in it whatever you want. It's basically modular and you can even build your own plugins with crazy sidechaininig and whatnot. While few people will actually use all that fancy stuff, the routing alone is a godsend (and unparalleled as far as I can tell), and it's painful to work without it on some regular ol' interface.
The padauk side panels have me salivating. Nice work. I want to get in line for a set (not necessarily padauk) when and if you get into production. You called it about the SHARC chips! That’s why I keep coming back to your channel. Glad you’ve got your utilities back. Helene totaled my Subaru (tree fall). It’s a hassle but it’s just a car. So many others in FL are really struggling/grieving. 🙏🏼
I absolutely agree. I think the Apollo interfaces should not lean on DSP so heavily. I do have my 2 cents to add. Tracking through DSP without commitment is, however, a great thing. Large track counts and happy musicians hearing themselves sound much closer to the final product makes sense. It is simply inspiring at the time of creation. That said, it is time for a single priced plugin that runs both native or DSP. It is pretty mind blowing if you reference the super low cost these chips to add to the interface.
Could simply use something like Gig Performer to track without latency while using the native plugins at the same time. Then that frees you up to choose whatever interface you want while still having that option. Now you wouldn't have the Unison preamps but you could use a preamp that lets you control the impedance on your own, although I'm not sure how that would compare to the unison thing.
Agree - and I think this is a point that is overlooked in terms of the "tracking through plugins doesn't affect the sound" claim. In terms of the actual sound of the recording - that is an accurate statement (aside from Unison impedance related tonal changes), but the *performance* may be different - better, usually - if the performer is hearing and responding to the track in as close of a way as it will sound at the end as possible. And the performance, if better, in a roundabout way will make the track sound better.
Glad you and family are all good. Good discussion. My 2cents…. Manufacturers are beginning to move to external mix rack DSP rather than on the main computer. Now that latency is getting under control whether PCI boards or external boxes. This gives the manufacturer better operational stability and does not rely on the hit or miss of ability or inability of the daws to work with embedded plugins. Just a thought. 😀
Hi Barry, I really like your design where the units are displayed one on one. Very visible and it surely is a great space saver. The finish is superb on all three builds. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you so much for making this video. I’m literally at the point where I’m trying to decide if I get a new computer or a DSP. Definitely leaning towards just buying a better computer now.
I run both spark (native) and two Octo satellites. I use an M2 Mac studio. It's not difficult to max out the Mac with a bunch of Spark plugins. I wouldn't be able to work without limitations without at least one Octo. The idea that the computer processing alone is 'more than enough these days' to run big session isn't as cut and dry as you people think. This is what I believed until my system started to slow down. UAD aren't abandoning DSP, there are DSP chips on the new interfaces. Not upgrading the chips doesn't equal abandoning. The satellites and Apollo DPS get the job done considering they exist in a workflow that includes your computer CPU and the new apple CPUs.
I’m still running my old Soniccore Xite-1 for almost past 20 years now. Rock solid and versatile. I work right down the street from Universal. Maybe I should have a little talk with them.
I adopted a philosophy a few years back when I was updating my studio. That was to try to keep things modular and more or less single purpose. Like you I went RME/Ferrofish for flexibility, transparency and dependability. When it comes to interfaces that’s all I want and at $3k+ I expect them to perform decades down the road with ongoing support. I honestly don’t know if there’s another company I trust to provide this…
Metric Halo does. You do need to purchase a hardware upgrade (the so called 3d card), but then it's up to date and hard to beat in terms of capabilities. Their DSP console is unparalleled as far as I can tell.
@@DanielDiezCansecoM the stereo field and clarity was immediately noticeable to my ears. I’m using the same speakers and simply pulled up some mixes and was convinced I made the right purchase. I’m assuming it has to do with the conversion. Not certain though.
I'm running two 8ps and a quad twin (all mkii). So I have 12 cores of dsp. I mostly do remote drum sessions in my home studio. I enjoy being able to do subtle eq and sometimes tape on all channels on the way in. It's a work flow thing for me. I like the convenience of not having to do any post processing to my audio before sending to the client. Not only does it save me time, but it also helps keep my sessions clean without having to commit plugins to new audio files. I don't think I'll feel the need to upgrade this setup for a long time.
I do like the UA native plug-ins. Once your on an M series Mac system like I am, there is no need for a dsp interface these days in 2024! Apollo’s are good but not worth the price point they are asking. I enjoy using my Steinberg UR44C interface which has some dsp on board. I record at 96K in general but enjoy 48K as well.I use Logic 11, Luna and Cubase 13 with great sounding reverb, eq , gtr plugins. They do the trick. If I were to upgrade my converters then I would go RME. Apogee with be up there as well. I’m totally covered with excellent software like Fabfilter, UA native, Logic plugins, Valhalla , Waves, Plug-in Alliance , Ik T-Racks Steinberg , NI, Isotope, Melodyne they all get the job done😊 Thanks for your channel Barry! Love the wood work ! I’ve been selling acoustic pianos for over 10 years and music production gear, synths / keyboards for over 30 so keep your content coming! Our music production world needs content like yours.
I use a presonus quantum 2626 with an M1 Mac and several UA native plug ins - have to say they work perfectly for tracking at 48khz and 32 or 64 buffer, I am probably not running challenging track counts etc but serves my purposes perfectly, would not consider upgrading to one of the new Apollos for a marginal improvement in conversion or dsp.
I totally agree with you. My opinion about UA still using ancient DSP chips from 2008 in 2024 is just pure greed and arrogance because they could have simply doubled the number of chips on each interface because they should be cheap by now. I'm so done with them and I'll be going with RME for my next interface.
Agree that you can process afterwards and sound will be arguably the same. But tracking through plugins is a great thing, you get inspired by the sound and perform better. Then with Apollos, there’s impedance matching. Difference is subtle but I notice it when tracking guitars. It’s perhaps more of a feeling than sound quality.
First things first..glad to hear you and family are safe!! Another great video!! Cant wait to see more woodworking builds!! Thanks for sharing!! Much ❤️ BJ!!
About 8:40, UAD Devices primarily work ONLY in ASIO mode on Windows so doing any off work like Zoom or Teams will not be possible since it crackles out and bugs out. For a big music studio this might not be much of an interest, but for a home studio owner that has Windows to do everything this is a bummer. They have never fixed these issues and they also occur on their "new" UAD Apollo Devices for much more money. On my Mac I never had any of the before mentioned problems. I sadly upgraded my whole Windows rig to also support Thunderbolt to use UADs Interfaces on Windows and Mac with possibly a KVM but, since they never fixed the drivers, I had no use and had to return it.
I do like that I can run the plugins in console without having them print on the recording. I like being able to hear closer to how it is in my head before I commit to printing on the track. And you're right I can't tell a difference between putting the plugin in console vs adding after the recording.
Thank you for sharing and explaining this Barry. This makes it really clear what I need and don’t need in my studio. Also, awesome work on the soft tube custom frames. 🫡
Thanks for the nuanced conversation and opinion. Happy to hear that you and your family are well! I have an x6 gen 1 and one satellite octo. Still delivering a tier performance on all fronts. I have no need to upgrade other than cosmetic. Maybe down the line if I’m a little bit bored and there’s just an extra money laying around to blow…I’d get the gen 2…but I’d be more likely to put that on a mic upgrade( Been wanting a Manley ref) or a new compressor( maybe a tube tech). But my signal chain is delivering Everytime. And between my M1, Mac mini and the satellite unit, I have more than enough DSP in processing to keep me going for the foreseeable future. I have no knock on universal audio for their latest release. If you don’t need to upgrade, buy upgrade. As long as they aren’t doing anything to try to force existing owners to upgrade…they’re not doing anything wrong
Unison preamps are the main reason I use DSP. And I'm not a purist, but my arguments for using DSP are 1) some of those unison plugins interact with the microphone, i.e. impedance, allowing one to craft a sound on the way in.. and 2) committing "to tape", despite it's disadvantages, can also save time and energy by laying down tracks where the vision and imagination of the producer becomes evident well before mixing begins. And DSP is no different, in that sense, from choosing microphones, preamps and hardware to massage the signal going to tape. And lastly, I simply enjoy the process of getting some cool sounds on the way in.. messing around with DSP can *really* be inspiring.
DSP gives me the ability to treat my inputs more like a console. It can simplify the workflow at times. UA is also adding Sonarworks to the main bus and headphone outputs. This simplifies that workflow as well.
Been using my Apollo solo and twin x since 2020(covid). I’ve invested money in to dsp plugins and I’ve learned from an educational perspective how to approach analog gear/consoles through the Apollo. I’m even up to 8 pieces of analog hardware now in my home setup. Apollo owners didn’t ask for anything crazy just better converters and I/O. I use a macM1 so the dsp is definitely beneficial but I can manage without it but after hearing the Presonus studio live gen 3. Idk, definitely appreciate the advice Barry
First it's good to know that you guys are safe! Seconds, I have the Apollo x8p and it's great, it's very easy and fast to work with (I have some synths, AxeFX and etc) and it's great! I was really really hoping that they will at least double the DSP power as I do get to a point where it cant handle it though if I turn off a other channels it's fine. I think you right with what you said the only problem I have with the video you made was the auto focus of the camera :) Please, use manual focus and it will be perfect. my eyes hurts (its my issue for some people it might be ok)
I purchased my Apollo x4 last year while running a MacBook 2017 and I’ve very much enjoyed it. At the time My computer being an older model, I was looking forward to using the onboard DSP and plugins in my music. Now within just a year, I’ve upgraded my MacBook to the M3, and have still never used the onboard DSP or unison preamps, I just use the native ones and have loved it. Some of the ecosystem is really cool, and the interface itself is great with how tactile I am, but I also am now recording more instruments and would like to have more inputs, especially if I don’t need the DSP because my computer has more than enough.
The DSPs make very much sense !!!!!!!! The Capitol Rooms Plugin for example use on my DSP System with 6 Shark Processors only 7% resurces, but the Native Version use barely the halve of my CPU Ryzen 7, 8 Core and i have 64GB Ram. Can be is a Display issue, because if the Native Plugin GUI is 100% it take not so much from the CPU. But as soon i Zoom the Nativ UAD Plugins Gui to 150% or 200%, it eat up all my CPU. I realy hope Universal Audio will support the Years will come still the Shark DSPs !!!! I have a Pc Computer System with 2 Computers working with VSL Ensemble and the Computers are 10 years old and i have over the years build my dream Studiorigg and the last what i want to do now is to install the whole thing on a new computer. Anyway i have just no money for a new computer, because the whole musicbusines have go down since the corona restrictions and now the big instability in Europa, because all Politics want make war.
I completely agree. There is no need to track through a plugin. If you have a good source in a good space with a good mic, any plugin used on the mix is, ideally, purely used for creative choice and or a bit of additional polishing, if at all. Either that or used to produce a specific soundscape and or effect on the source. I wrote to UAD pointing this out, either you can mix or you can't, when you apply the plugin should be immaterial. One month later Spark came out. Lol. I'd like to think they listened.
Great stuff! Love the Console desk you made! Yeah…I’ve been with UAD since 2012. I am really thinking about moving to either RME, Ferrofish, or Steinberg’s ARX 4 with the Neve transformers, Cubase/Nuendo integration and Silk built into the interface. I just gotta see how this will work for my setup. I know I need a new mac. After that, I will probably know where to go next.
Barry, you forgot 1 thing that dsp doesn’t do in the UA/Apollo space, is the Unison pre’s which does something to the source, I guess with impedance matching which to me makes a difference vs going native.
Yup I have a Twin X and yeah it really changes the sound of the vocals! If you apply the same FX in post it's just not the same! These boxes are more for Artists recording than Mixing/Post production.
I myself realised I never actually liked the sonic result of impedance matching. I prefer adding plugs after. And my tracking latency is down to practically zero now anyway on my RME/Mac setup, so I can still use native plugs that way if needed. Apollo is now just part of my performance rig as a mixer.
@@sagnierthey are just matching to outboard gear, so like if you have a Neve or API outboard preamp, then have a mic going into that, then you'd need to match it to simulate it properly. I had those and used a Avalon, but none of those are needed now and no need for a patch bay when using my Apollo. It really cuts down on the wires I have before. Since it happens with the real preamps, it's gotta happen with the simulation and I haven't found anything that simulates my outboard preamps as well as Apollo. It can sound clear easy and so can Babyface which is what I was going to switch to at something, but when I want it warmer or dirtier without a pre, the best I've found is Saturn FF or Decapitator. Do you go clean or do you warm them with something?
@@CoopMusic247 yup. If and when I ever get a ton of outboard gear I will look at RME etc but I’m satisfied with my sound and especially with the CVOX suite! It cleans the noise and ambient sound on the front end so it’s so much less processing needed!
I think the exception to thinking there isn't an advantage to committing through a plugin is the Unison preamps. They actually change the impedance of the mic preamps on an Apollo.
Protools (from version 12 onwards) has freeze and commit functions for each track if you want to "bake" the plugin processing into the track itself as audio so you could free up CPU resources for other things. The original raw unprocessed version of the track can still be preserved.
Well focused information. Despite having out of focus footage :) . About tracking on Apollo with plugs, the most useful thing is having the Unison preamp supposedly interacting with the actual preamps on the interface when cranking gain, also they say it interacts with the impedance on the way in. Once the signal is up to line level (without having that Unison thing when tracking) it might not be the same inserting that "channel strip" or "preamp" from Unison world at mix (and switching the plug to "line in"), right? Regards from Bucharest, your channel puts out a lot of good thoughts and information.
Honestly the thing that most intrigued me about the new interfaces - and it's not even out yet, even if you buy a new one right now - is that you can run Sonarworks utilizing DSP. If you get the Arc - there is latency (though not a lot) - and if you use Sonarworks at the end of your master chain many times you print the tracks with it accidentally, etc. Some people would say you can run autotune realtime with DSP but I have found that you can do that without DSP these days. I just don't see it worth the money on these, at least for myself. for $499 you can get a Presonus HD Quantum 2 with better conversion specs :/ I am not knocking them - I think if you like it and it works for you by all means - I choose to get some 500 series gear and run a 2 channel interface myself. Hardware to me sounds good. So for $3.7K - for a vocalist or guitarist - there are some good options out there with that money! lol.
If they bail on DSP, they must port the legacy plugs to native. I have had quad cards since 2007 or so. I think the 2 systems I went into were 10K each, they came with a lot of plugins, and only 2 or 3 show up as redeemable native pieces. Confirmed, it 3: 160, an LA-3, and a Space Echo. Nothing else, almost 40 plugs with a big FU next to them.
I'm in my mid 40s and I've kinda decided I want to finally have some decent outboard gear like a compressor, eq, and a couple other flavors of stuff that I've been relying on plugins for so long. I always did it for cost reasons, but being my age I'm at the "I want to buy the nice thing for myself now bc life is short" phase
For the majority of people for the same amount of money, they are better off buying a higher end computer and use a normal audio interface with no DSP than buying a lower end computer with an Apollo audio interface. The exception is people who want to track with plugins but can’t accept the latency of native plugins. The other use case is people with a maxed out computer (ie they have the best available CPU on the market with maxed out RAM) but still want to offload processing to run larger projects.
As a recording engineer I usually track trough UAD's plugins and print the sounds with them, as the instrument is really supposed to sound like it sounds with the plugin on the chain, that's a way to consolidate the sound and the aesthetic right in the recording phase, rather then have someone mess with it latter on (even if that someone is me). Other than this I see no reason quality-wise to print with UAD plugins, as you would have the same sound/timbre inside the DAW as you would have tracking.
I feel the only major advantage for the DSP is for either Live usage, maintaining low buffer size and the Unison preamps,. I've used my apollos live for playback stuff and vocal chain which made it great for outboarding a live console. I've had some scenarios where i used analog consoles and ran a mastering chain through it. It's definitely got its place for usage but it's definitely niche.
i just bought my first Apollo. The Apollo X8 Gen 2. I'm still figuring out how it works. I'm moving up from the Scarlett 18i20 that I've found out now is a very oversimplified interface. I do feel like I got $3K worth of audio interface with the Apollo. I just hope I can use it to its full potential. On a separate note: I'm running a Apple Studio M2 Max. I also just bought the iMac Mini M4 last week. If you upgrade the Ram on Mac Mini M4 then there really isn't any need to buy an Apple Studio. It's every bit as good. I bought my Apple Studio last February 2023 and the Studio hasn't progressed past the M2 chips even now after the M4 was released. Seeing the power of the M4 I'm suspicious if the Apple Studio is going away. A Mac Mini M4 Pro is 1/2 the price of the Studio.
Regarding the Apple studio, the M4 version of the Apple studio do to be released I think first quarter of next year, it’s supposed to destroy everything out there regardless of PC versus Mac. We’ll see if it actually comes to fruition or not though. But I’m looking forward to checking it out.
Great take. Your missing one thing on tracking thu uad plugins, lot of us need or like to hear processing in real time either for clarity and loudness or most used Autotune in real time as we track vocals without latency. I personally like printing a lil bit of compression and clarity direct on my recording just to get to where Im going step by step in small moves. Thats just my personal process.
I guess his point was to rather get more CPU power inside your computer rather than outside. Processing power is processing power and with enough of it, you can monitor through (any) plugins with minimal latency
@josuastangl7140 ya the dsp needs to go they need to unlock all the native plugins I hate that I got some of the same plugins native and spark and now they have few things you can only use in Luna that i cant use outside Luna.
I agree with the main points of this opinion video. That said, it seems to me that the problem with UA’s DSP-enhanced interfaces is the processing power of those SHARC chips. If UA figured out how to use the new ARM-based CPUs by Qualcomm, Nvidia, or Samsung to radically beef up the utility of onboard DSP, that might still have some appeal as a component of low-latency processing. Then again, the effective speed and computing power of modern PCs just keeps progressing so fast that UA can’t possibly keep up, in which case dropping onboard DSP altogether might be the best business model in the long run. UA can still maintain their brand by staying relevant in two markets: selling actual analog outboard gear, and offering native plugins that emulate them. The analog products then become the “flagship” products that generate a positive “halo” effect for the plugin business. This makes more sense than continually trying to stay current in a commodity market like raw processing power.
Also, another avenue UA should explore would be hybrid products a la Heritage Audio’s i73 line of digital interfaces with vintage analog circuits on the front end.
I have a special use case as a part time voice talent for TV productions. Sometimes I use live connections with the production studio via SessionLink Pro (without a DAW involved), where I have to use a UA Unison plugin to get zero latency while monitoring myself. Not possible with the native plugins.
Hey Barry, great work on those side panels! Do you make them for theSSL UFC1? Great channel, great content! As Hurricane Sandy Survivors glad you are all ok!
I think the DSP era is over for audio processing. CPUs are plenty fast and efficient enough for those tasks. I am interested to see if there is any future for GPU based audio processing.
cpu's are fast, but still not fast enough. I can put 20 UAD plugins in my session be it compressors, eq's, effects, and have equal latency as if I had no plugins. Its like saying CPU's are fast enough so u dont need a graphics card.
@@yael_valle I am not sure many people need 20 UAD plugins on a session with low latency for mixing. And if you need more plugins than your system can handle, there are other options such as Audiogridder.
CPUs are fast enough 99% of the time but then that other 1% hits when you’re in the middle of the creative process and you hear a couple pops and clicks and have to stop what you’re doing and adjust your buffer size and now all your amp sims have a bit more latency that you have to live with or you can start freezing tracks to see if that helps and by now you’ve forgotten what you were about to add to the song. Hard real-time systems are awesome, that’s why people love using standalone guitar pedals, just turn them on and they always respond exactly the same way. I wish UAD hadn’t just suddenly forgotten this when they’ve been the ones preaching it for years. The whole Luna DAW is designed around this idea.
@@Danny-jv3xo Hard real-time is awesome, but committing to a sound that later on doesn't work is not awesome especially when you're mixing a track. For me I don't just finish the production and then go to mixing, they're very much synonymous to each other and having the ability to mix a track while simultaneously recording with no latency difference is a must for me, if im mixing someone else's track its whatever, but the number of times I've lost a session because my DAW couldn't load all the plugins and audio is insurmountable and I very much prefer the workflow I have now with my Apollo, and I think that there are others who are within that same sentiment. If you're JUST a Mixing/Mastering engineer then that's a whole other discussion, but most people buying Apollo Interfaces are doing all 3 and need that flexibility which no other interface aside from the Apogee Symphony and Antelope Audio Interfaces.
I have no issue with the sounds quality being the same whether you print or don't print the plug in whilst tracking. However, my issue comes with having so much more option paralysis during mix down. I prefer to commit a sound (and maybe split to have a completely clean copy in case of any reamp needs if the record is changed further down the line) because it gives a direction for the sound the record is going to have and I do suffer option paralysis if I haven't printed sounds. It's not a right or wrong thing in my opinion, but it is helpful if you have that issue like I often do. The inability to utilise the Unison inputs on the new Dream '65 et al plug ins is a kick in the teeth to those who invested in Apollo for that particular feature (in my opinion).
I think committing plugins (or traditionally shaping the sound on the console prior to tape) to tape or computer makes sense when you have an accurate control room where you can make proper mixing decisions on the spot and it is the sound you are pretty sure you're going for (esp. if you're recording at a studio, you might not have access to those gears or plugins later). It can actually save time from reproducing the sound later. I guess it would be wise to not over compress, cuz that is hard to undo.
@@BarryJohns For plugins I personally won’t print to tape, but I guess if you go to a big commercial studio, you might want to get the tone of some certain hardware compressors, I would just go really light on it just for dynamic control. Btw. I’m also a big fan of RME stuff (my first interface was the Multiface back in around 2000, which lasted me for 15 years). Anyways, like your channel a lot and please keep up the good work.👍🏻
Sorry for all the comments: one more, actually on the subject matter of the video this time, and then I’ll shut up- I think UA has realized how much work it is to port all of their plugs to Native format. A new DSP processor could prove similarly challenging in that it may require an entire rewrite…they may not be willing to do that. Perhaps the ones that are already converted to Ntive would prove easier to port on a new chip, maybe something FPGA based.
Great discussion. I’ve been on the fence to upgrade either my main interface or computer 🖥️ as I gave my MacBook 💻 to my son for college when I saw ua come out with new stuff I was listening for the dsp upgrade and heard some crickets 🦗 but yeah thanks for helping me make up my mind . 😅
I've been WAITING for you to do this YT Tutorial on UA NEW APOLLO's....I and other know what your going to say, even though I still use My X8P, X6 & Twin Duo until I get the New Apple's M4 "STUDIO" to power my Projects! Happy to hear you survived the Hurricane! I'm sure when I get my NEW Mac (iMac or Studio) I will most likely STILL keep my Several Apollo's for DSP for PLUG-IN's the UA has NOT converted to "NATIVE" NO! BARRY! have UA DSP Plug-In's that have not made ot to the NATIVE side w/ UA ( still like you channel...just saying what I use every DAY! ) :) Thx Barry for making this VId ...It's ok if we sometimes disagree :). We would need to talk in person or on Cell to understand where were at TODAY with this Product :) George Amodei. I would NOT buy another UA Interface! Time to move on! ( but I may still keep my UA Interfaces ... Can't sell it for MUCH! )
Yep , i agree so much ! Sold this DOLLAR$$$ EATER last year at the buying price ( A relief and a joy !! ) Dont need some prehistoric Mo chips RAM at 3500$ : 64 Go for 100$ .... My advice : Put a fuc.... 64 GiGa Octets in your computer !! And you will not have to listen carefully to ear the difference . It is obvious .for 100$ .
With dual buffer systems now, it’s really a non issue, you could still record latency free with the rest of your song at 2048 samples… it’s something that has been solved like 5 years ago already.
I’m it’s not, I have a lot of Purple Heart in the garage and this is “similar” but it hit Purple Heart. If you’ve worked with Purple Heart you know it stinks when milling and sanding. Padauk, yes looks orange when orking with it, but spraying poly, this is the way it comes out.
@@BarryJohnsweird, padouk has always stayed on the orange side for me but Purple Heart simply looks like that when I’m done. I’ve never seen a shade of purple like that on padouk but I’ll take your word for it.
I plan to do another video on that entire process, as it seems to always be evolving. So just be patient in that video will come out. Trust me it took me a while to get to this point.
Something I notice a few years ago researching new dsp builds ( was a bss and dbx user ) Analog is not making faster chips. Last time I looked they top out at 800mghz. Or was that a dual core 400mghz. Don't remember. That is. their top of the line chips. It's all 20 year old tech... in the case if bss with their dsp speaker management/networking equipment. Upgrades are just new protocols additions ie. Dante, AvB, madi. Their blu link (was is proprietary but equally functional )....
In a PT Session with 100 tracks, with a Mac Ultra, 128 Gb Ram, 1 Tb SSD, it's impossible to track without latency. So, UAD lets me do that. What other options for now?
Well, you should go back and look at some of the videos I’ve done in the past where I actually show you in real time that that is not the case. I literally have over 1000 tracks recording at the same time with five plug-ins each on them. At a 32 buffer.
Barry is a bit out of touch with real sessions TBH… when you’ve got busses cooking and heavy latency plugins on the mix bus you need the Apollo or HDX or some sort of dsp engine to monitor real time..
@@fosiko123 Composers for media (movies, TV, video, library music and games), especially with virtual orchestra and/or electronic sounds, nearly always need way over 100 tracks. Just one example. And - yes - these are mostly home or mid level studios and some thousands globally.
I would agree that would be true, however, at this price range not a lot of home studios are spending that kind of dough. Regardless, these are things for people to consider when trying to make decisions.
Unison plugins change the impedance to match that plugin’s recreation which wouldn’t be achieved if plugins are added after the fact, even if a close comparison etc
if it is the unison pre-amp of Apollo interface, the software plug-in for instance: UAD Neve 1073 or helios type 69, it would control and change the impedence of Apollo pre-amp, so it makes a difference if you put that pre-amp plug-in during track not in post-production. Or if I am wrong, it would be happy to see a null test on UAD s unison pre-amps.
Hello Mr. Johns. I like your channel and the stuff you talking about. I do like UA also very much,since the Apollo twin recordings are always very satisfying and fun to me. I could get an Apollo X 8P gen 1 for 1850 euros from Thomann here in Germany. Do you think that is a good invest or would you recommend to jump on this not so new gen 2 Apollos? X8P gen 1 is still a powerful choice isn t it? Thanks for teaching us. Greetings from Germany
Old computers were the birth of DSP. Current Mac processors allow you to make an album on your laptop. We’re getting closer to where everyone wanted to be 25 years ago anyway.
Glad to hear you and family are safe from those pesky hurricanes
Good discussion, as a Pro Tools user and Apollo (16) for over ten years now, I can tell you that the compelling reason today for a UA Apollo with DSP is not about tracking thru plugins, but it’s all about latency during tracking. I’m a professional drummer that does many sessions for clients remotely at my home studio. I am extremely sensitive to latency and using Apollo console to record with no perceived latency is critical. I am also a Mac user, Mac Studio M2 Ultimate.
I will say in the video, I do make that very point about DSP being good for dealing with Layton seizure and tracking. A little over midway through.
Furniture is beautiful Barry ,I’m a carpenter also love building,I also track through a16 with plug-ins ❤
Same as these guys, ProTools, UA X Racks
Semi-Professional Guitarist, Bass,Keys, Building contractor & 3rd gen cabinet maker
Latency is
Imperceivable since using Apollo
iMac 5k last before silicone m1 was released, definitely upgrading to the Mac Studio after I get my moneys worth out of this 4 year old machine which makes it a dinosaur by Apple standards
But $6500 investment there, just bad timing
Also admire your build handy works
@@BarryJohnsI’ll start using “Layton seizure” when explaining latency, thanks!😂
No need for me to type the above, well said. This is exactly why we use UAD and DSP
Glad you guys are safe from the hurricane. Also, that woodwork looks incredible. Kudos sir.
I think there are 2 ways of looking at DSP, as an engineer/producer and as an artist. There are vocalists who rely on having a processed sound to bring out the best in their performance. I myself am a voice over and I find that my performance is also better when I'm hearing the processing as I record. Of course this can be done with hardware going in, but then you're committing to tape. The beauty of DSP in these devices is the ability to have the processing in the headphones only and send the raw signal to the DAW. Just my take on it all.
Apollos and UA plugins are fantastic. DSP is really solid to use, low latency and runs really well. Now you can run native too, they are better together so you don’t run out of processing
UA probably should also have a more universal converter without DSP, that’s a fair point
Barry, Spunkafellic made a comment about why would people would want to track with a plugin printed. So to be clear, you have the option to print the plug-in or simply listen to it while you are tracking but not print it. Except for the unison slot. The unison slot is always printed by its nature. This includes many Neve and other preamps et cetera. There’s a pre-and post switch. And that is available track by track or on the whole recording.
So some of the plug-ins, that I print when I record are some of the excellent unison slot amplifiers simulations that UAD has. I use a DI so I can also capture the raw signal on another track in case I want to re-amp later.
I just felt that explanation was needed in case some people have gotten the wrong idea.
I like your channel
Thank you - yes! This is the entire idea of Unison slot as UA brilliance of design. Could Barry be missing this concept? I tend to doubt it but one never knows
@9:57 Techinically speaking, I agree with you RE, sonically identical. However, printing with a nice "sweet" sounding plugin chain may influence the performance and therefore give results that are sonically "better", subjectively speaking. Vibe matters while tracking. But whatever works
Honestly. UAD's realtime autotune has me hooked. I hate how autotune sounds in low latency mode directly through the daw when tracking and the fact that I can run a 1073 and autotune and print it is a Godsend.
How can a realtime autotune sound better than the same algorithm with latency? UADs SHARC chips and your CPU have the same theoretical limits in terms of latency, it’s not like UAD cards can magically run something in zero latency/realtime?
@@Clarity-808 Idek tbh. It just does as blunt as that sounds (not trying to be I promise!). It’s very difficult *for me* to record into autotune in your daw (cpu) w/o using low latency mode which sounds worse and ruins my inspiration while recording. I guess the shark chips and the way uad process stuff through apollo is just more tailored to the plugin I guess
WOW SO HAPPY YOU'RE 🔙 !!!!! KEEP SPEAKING THE TRUTH !!!!!! WE ARE LISTENING !!!!!! 🤙🏾
DSP makes most sense for one thing:routing /monitoring during recording. Singer wants the backing track or their voice brighter or mellower - there you go. Headphones are too muddy - corrected. Different speakers or headphones each with their own tuning / correction on different outputs, different monitor mixes.
Metric Halo's MIO console does all that and more. It's totally flexible and you can basically build in it whatever you want. It's basically modular and you can even build your own plugins with crazy sidechaininig and whatnot.
While few people will actually use all that fancy stuff, the routing alone is a godsend (and unparalleled as far as I can tell), and it's painful to work without it on some regular ol' interface.
The padauk side panels have me salivating. Nice work. I want to get in line for a set (not necessarily padauk) when and if you get into production.
You called it about the SHARC chips! That’s why I keep coming back to your channel. Glad you’ve got your utilities back. Helene totaled my Subaru (tree fall). It’s a hassle but it’s just a car. So many others in FL are really struggling/grieving. 🙏🏼
I absolutely agree. I think the Apollo interfaces should not lean on DSP so heavily. I do have my 2 cents to add. Tracking through DSP without commitment is, however, a great thing. Large track counts and happy musicians hearing themselves sound much closer to the final product makes sense. It is simply inspiring at the time of creation. That said, it is time for a single priced plugin that runs both native or DSP. It is pretty mind blowing if you reference the super low cost these chips to add to the interface.
Could simply use something like Gig Performer to track without latency while using the native plugins at the same time. Then that frees you up to choose whatever interface you want while still having that option. Now you wouldn't have the Unison preamps but you could use a preamp that lets you control the impedance on your own, although I'm not sure how that would compare to the unison thing.
Agree - and I think this is a point that is overlooked in terms of the "tracking through plugins doesn't affect the sound" claim. In terms of the actual sound of the recording - that is an accurate statement (aside from Unison impedance related tonal changes), but the *performance* may be different - better, usually - if the performer is hearing and responding to the track in as close of a way as it will sound at the end as possible. And the performance, if better, in a roundabout way will make the track sound better.
Glad you and family are all good. Good discussion. My 2cents…. Manufacturers are beginning to move to external mix rack DSP rather than on the main computer. Now that latency is getting under control whether PCI boards or external boxes. This gives the manufacturer better operational stability and does not rely on the hit or miss of ability or inability of the daws to work with embedded plugins. Just a thought. 😀
Your insights are much appreciated, and respected by me.
Hi Barry, I really like your design where the units are displayed one on one. Very visible and it surely is a great space saver. The finish is superb on all three builds. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you so much for making this video. I’m literally at the point where I’m trying to decide if I get a new computer or a DSP. Definitely leaning towards just buying a better computer now.
Ayyyyyye Barry! I was hoping everything was ok with you and the family dealing with the storm and everything. Glad you all are good.
Glad your family is safe. M1 Mac Mini here running Bitwig Studio and a UAD SPARK sub. A great combo that works and sounds fine.
Hey Barry, I love your custom builds for Console 1. The side by side looks amazing, Cant wait to purchase.
I run both spark (native) and two Octo satellites. I use an M2 Mac studio. It's not difficult to max out the Mac with a bunch of Spark plugins. I wouldn't be able to work without limitations without at least one Octo. The idea that the computer processing alone is 'more than enough these days' to run big session isn't as cut and dry as you people think. This is what I believed until my system started to slow down. UAD aren't abandoning DSP, there are DSP chips on the new interfaces. Not upgrading the chips doesn't equal abandoning. The satellites and Apollo DPS get the job done considering they exist in a workflow that includes your computer CPU and the new apple CPUs.
I’m still running my old Soniccore Xite-1 for almost past 20 years now. Rock solid and versatile. I work right down the street from Universal. Maybe I should have a little talk with them.
I adopted a philosophy a few years back when I was updating my studio. That was to try to keep things modular and more or less single purpose. Like you I went RME/Ferrofish for flexibility, transparency and dependability. When it comes to interfaces that’s all I want and at $3k+ I expect them to perform decades down the road with ongoing support. I honestly don’t know if there’s another company I trust to provide this…
Metric Halo does. You do need to purchase a hardware upgrade (the so called 3d card), but then it's up to date and hard to beat in terms of capabilities. Their DSP console is unparalleled as far as I can tell.
+1
In professional world in general, ONE THING DOES ONE SPECIFIC JOB, Period!
That approach is gold IF one can understand.
I have avoided Apollo interfaces as I don’t need dsp. I recently upgraded from a Focusrite clarett to an rme ufx ii and the difference is significant.
Ist the difference really big? Which differences can you tell?
@@DanielDiezCansecoM the stereo field and clarity was immediately noticeable to my ears. I’m using the same speakers and simply pulled up some mixes and was convinced I made the right purchase. I’m assuming it has to do with the conversion. Not certain though.
I'm running two 8ps and a quad twin (all mkii). So I have 12 cores of dsp. I mostly do remote drum sessions in my home studio. I enjoy being able to do subtle eq and sometimes tape on all channels on the way in. It's a work flow thing for me. I like the convenience of not having to do any post processing to my audio before sending to the client. Not only does it save me time, but it also helps keep my sessions clean without having to commit plugins to new audio files. I don't think I'll feel the need to upgrade this setup for a long time.
I do like the UA native plug-ins. Once your on an M series Mac system like I am, there is no need for a dsp interface these days in 2024! Apollo’s are good but not worth the price point they are asking. I enjoy using my Steinberg UR44C interface which has some dsp on board. I record at 96K in general but enjoy 48K as well.I use Logic 11, Luna and Cubase 13 with great sounding reverb, eq , gtr plugins. They do the trick. If I were to upgrade my converters then I would go RME. Apogee with be up there as well. I’m totally covered with excellent software like Fabfilter, UA native, Logic plugins, Valhalla , Waves, Plug-in Alliance , Ik T-Racks Steinberg , NI, Isotope, Melodyne they all get the job done😊 Thanks for your channel Barry! Love the wood work ! I’ve been selling acoustic pianos for over 10 years and music production gear, synths / keyboards for over 30 so keep your content coming! Our music production world needs content like yours.
I use a presonus quantum 2626 with an M1 Mac and several UA native plug ins - have to say they work perfectly for tracking at 48khz and 32 or 64 buffer, I am probably not running challenging track counts etc but serves my purposes perfectly, would not consider upgrading to one of the new Apollos for a marginal improvement in conversion or dsp.
We need dsp to help cpu when running big cinematiq project 250+ channels
I totally agree with you. My opinion about UA still using ancient DSP chips from 2008 in 2024 is just pure greed and arrogance because they could have simply doubled the number of chips on each interface because they should be cheap by now. I'm so done with them and I'll be going with RME for my next interface.
Agree that you can process afterwards and sound will be arguably the same. But tracking through plugins is a great thing, you get inspired by the sound and perform better. Then with Apollos, there’s impedance matching. Difference is subtle but I notice it when tracking guitars. It’s perhaps more of a feeling than sound quality.
Glad you are safe from the hurricane.
First things first..glad to hear you and family are safe!! Another great video!! Cant wait to see more woodworking builds!! Thanks for sharing!! Much ❤️ BJ!!
Happy to hear everything is ok your way.
He’s alive! Thank God 🙏🙏🙏
I'm so happy that they did this. Most of my plugins are now being replaced by UAD.
Glad you and yours are safe after all the bad storms peace and blessings be yours
About 8:40, UAD Devices primarily work ONLY in ASIO mode on Windows so doing any off work like Zoom or Teams will not be possible since it crackles out and bugs out. For a big music studio this might not be much of an interest, but for a home studio owner that has Windows to do everything this is a bummer. They have never fixed these issues and they also occur on their "new" UAD Apollo Devices for much more money. On my Mac I never had any of the before mentioned problems. I sadly upgraded my whole Windows rig to also support Thunderbolt to use UADs Interfaces on Windows and Mac with possibly a KVM but, since they never fixed the drivers, I had no use and had to return it.
I do like that I can run the plugins in console without having them print on the recording. I like being able to hear closer to how it is in my head before I commit to printing on the track. And you're right I can't tell a difference between putting the plugin in console vs adding after the recording.
I’ve done that for the last several years, just adding the plug-in inside my digital audio workstation. Latency is zero issue for me.
Thank you for sharing and explaining this Barry. This makes it really clear what I need and don’t need in my studio. Also, awesome work on the soft tube custom frames. 🫡
Thanks for the nuanced conversation and opinion. Happy to hear that you and your family are well!
I have an x6 gen 1 and one satellite octo. Still delivering a tier performance on all fronts. I have no need to upgrade other than cosmetic. Maybe down the line if I’m a little bit bored and there’s just an extra money laying around to blow…I’d get the gen 2…but I’d be more likely to put that on a mic upgrade( Been wanting a Manley ref) or a new compressor( maybe a tube tech).
But my signal chain is delivering Everytime. And between my M1, Mac mini and the satellite unit, I have more than enough DSP in processing to keep me going for the foreseeable future.
I have no knock on universal audio for their latest release. If you don’t need to upgrade, buy upgrade. As long as they aren’t doing anything to try to force existing owners to upgrade…they’re not doing anything wrong
Unison preamps are the main reason I use DSP. And I'm not a purist, but my arguments for using DSP are 1) some of those unison plugins interact with the microphone, i.e. impedance, allowing one to craft a sound on the way in.. and 2) committing "to tape", despite it's disadvantages, can also save time and energy by laying down tracks where the vision and imagination of the producer becomes evident well before mixing begins. And DSP is no different, in that sense, from choosing microphones, preamps and hardware to massage the signal going to tape. And lastly, I simply enjoy the process of getting some cool sounds on the way in.. messing around with DSP can *really* be inspiring.
DSP doesnt interact with the analog signal, only with digital, they are just plugins.
Sorry, but you've been duped by UA marketing...as was I. UA reps have said...and I quote ... Native plugins "sound identical" to UAD plugins.
@@p4493 except when they do interact via impedance matching.
@@musiccreation1198 except impedance matching, of course. Native doesn’t offer that, nor does native process mic level signals.
I'm into the Unison impedance matching as well, that's what DSP is for for me.
Glad you’re safe and doing well
DSP gives me the ability to treat my inputs more like a console. It can simplify the workflow at times. UA is also adding Sonarworks to the main bus and headphone outputs. This simplifies that workflow as well.
Oh man! Happy to hear that you and yours are ok! ☘☮🤘🏽🤠👍🏽☮☘
Been using my Apollo solo and twin x since 2020(covid). I’ve invested money in to dsp plugins and I’ve learned from an educational perspective how to approach analog gear/consoles through the Apollo. I’m even up to 8 pieces of analog hardware now in my home setup. Apollo owners didn’t ask for anything crazy just better converters and I/O. I use a macM1 so the dsp is definitely beneficial but I can manage without it but after hearing the Presonus studio live gen 3. Idk, definitely appreciate the advice Barry
Antelope sounds very clean but i had nothing but problems with the orion 32 and sent it back and went to an apollo
First it's good to know that you guys are safe! Seconds, I have the Apollo x8p and it's great, it's very easy and fast to work with (I have some synths, AxeFX and etc) and it's great! I was really really hoping that they will at least double the DSP power as I do get to a point where it cant handle it though if I turn off a other channels it's fine. I think you right with what you said the only problem I have with the video you made was the auto focus of the camera :) Please, use manual focus and it will be perfect. my eyes hurts (its my issue for some people it might be ok)
I purchased my Apollo x4 last year while running a MacBook 2017 and I’ve very much enjoyed it. At the time My computer being an older model, I was looking forward to using the onboard DSP and plugins in my music. Now within just a year, I’ve upgraded my MacBook to the M3, and have still never used the onboard DSP or unison preamps, I just use the native ones and have loved it. Some of the ecosystem is really cool, and the interface itself is great with how tactile I am, but I also am now recording more instruments and would like to have more inputs, especially if I don’t need the DSP because my computer has more than enough.
Glad to know you and your family are safe Barry.
The DSPs make very much sense !!!!!!!! The Capitol Rooms Plugin for example use on my DSP System with 6 Shark Processors only
7% resurces, but the Native Version use barely the halve of my CPU Ryzen 7, 8 Core and i have 64GB Ram.
Can be is a Display issue, because if the Native Plugin GUI is 100% it take not so much from the CPU.
But as soon i Zoom the Nativ UAD Plugins Gui to 150% or 200%, it eat up all my CPU.
I realy hope Universal Audio will support the Years will come still the Shark DSPs !!!! I have a Pc Computer System with 2 Computers working with
VSL Ensemble and the Computers are 10 years old and i have over the years build my dream Studiorigg and the last what i want to do now
is to install the whole thing on a new computer. Anyway i have just no money for a new computer, because the whole musicbusines have
go down since the corona restrictions and now the big instability in Europa, because all Politics want make war.
I completely agree. There is no need to track through a plugin. If you have a good source in a good space with a good mic, any plugin used on the mix is, ideally, purely used for creative choice and or a bit of additional polishing, if at all. Either that or used to produce a specific soundscape and or effect on the source. I wrote to UAD pointing this out, either you can mix or you can't, when you apply the plugin should be immaterial. One month later Spark came out. Lol. I'd like to think they listened.
so good to hear somebody telling it straight, ie what i am thinking, respect
Great stuff! Love the Console desk you made!
Yeah…I’ve been with UAD since 2012. I am really thinking about moving to either RME, Ferrofish, or Steinberg’s ARX 4 with the Neve transformers, Cubase/Nuendo integration and Silk built into the interface.
I just gotta see how this will work for my setup. I know I need a new mac. After that, I will probably know where to go next.
Happy you and your family are safe 🙏🏾🙏🏾
I see you have the small iCon Pro controller on your desk. Can you make a video about it? And its integration with Cubase? thanks Barry.
Yep
BTW nice work for the soft tube gear🎉
Barry, you forgot 1 thing that dsp doesn’t do in the UA/Apollo space, is the Unison pre’s which does something to the source, I guess with impedance matching which to me makes a difference vs going native.
Yup I have a Twin X and yeah it really changes the sound of the vocals! If you apply the same FX in post it's just not the same! These boxes are more for Artists recording than Mixing/Post production.
@@geebashiri3315 Agreed 100% I am sticking with UA for this alone.
I myself realised I never actually liked the sonic result of impedance matching. I prefer adding plugs after. And my tracking latency is down to practically zero now anyway on my RME/Mac setup, so I can still use native plugs that way if needed.
Apollo is now just part of my performance rig as a mixer.
@@sagnierthey are just matching to outboard gear, so like if you have a Neve or API outboard preamp, then have a mic going into that, then you'd need to match it to simulate it properly. I had those and used a Avalon, but none of those are needed now and no need for a patch bay when using my Apollo. It really cuts down on the wires I have before. Since it happens with the real preamps, it's gotta happen with the simulation and I haven't found anything that simulates my outboard preamps as well as Apollo. It can sound clear easy and so can Babyface which is what I was going to switch to at something, but when I want it warmer or dirtier without a pre, the best I've found is Saturn FF or Decapitator. Do you go clean or do you warm them with something?
@@CoopMusic247 yup. If and when I ever get a ton of outboard gear I will look at RME etc but I’m satisfied with my sound and especially with the CVOX suite! It cleans the noise and ambient sound on the front end so it’s so much less processing needed!
I think the exception to thinking there isn't an advantage to committing through a plugin is the Unison preamps. They actually change the impedance of the mic preamps on an Apollo.
Great video!!!! Which CNC was that at the end?
Protools (from version 12 onwards) has freeze and commit functions for each track if you want to "bake" the plugin processing into the track itself as audio so you could free up CPU resources for other things. The original raw unprocessed version of the track can still be preserved.
Well focused information. Despite having out of focus footage :) .
About tracking on Apollo with plugs, the most useful thing is having the Unison preamp supposedly interacting with the actual preamps on the interface when cranking gain, also they say it interacts with the impedance on the way in. Once the signal is up to line level (without having that Unison thing when tracking) it might not be the same inserting that "channel strip" or "preamp" from Unison world at mix (and switching the plug to "line in"), right?
Regards from Bucharest, your channel puts out a lot of good thoughts and information.
Nice to see that new console system. We are reps for it at Sweetwater.
Honestly the thing that most intrigued me about the new interfaces - and it's not even out yet, even if you buy a new one right now - is that you can run Sonarworks utilizing DSP. If you get the Arc - there is latency (though not a lot) - and if you use Sonarworks at the end of your master chain many times you print the tracks with it accidentally, etc. Some people would say you can run autotune realtime with DSP but I have found that you can do that without DSP these days. I just don't see it worth the money on these, at least for myself. for $499 you can get a Presonus HD Quantum 2 with better conversion specs :/ I am not knocking them - I think if you like it and it works for you by all means - I choose to get some 500 series gear and run a 2 channel interface myself. Hardware to me sounds good. So for $3.7K - for a vocalist or guitarist - there are some good options out there with that money! lol.
If they bail on DSP, they must port the legacy plugs to native. I have had quad cards since 2007 or so. I think the 2 systems I went into were 10K each, they came with a lot of plugins, and only 2 or 3 show up as redeemable native pieces. Confirmed, it 3: 160, an LA-3, and a Space Echo. Nothing else, almost 40 plugs with a big FU next to them.
I agree. Adding the plugin after on the track is no different. Sound will be the same. I use that method all the time.
I'm in my mid 40s and I've kinda decided I want to finally have some decent outboard gear like a compressor, eq, and a couple other flavors of stuff that I've been relying on plugins for so long. I always did it for cost reasons, but being my age I'm at the "I want to buy the nice thing for myself now bc life is short" phase
In my mid 30. and did the same Thing. Startet with a SSL Six Board - very nice 🎉
For the majority of people for the same amount of money, they are better off buying a higher end computer and use a normal audio interface with no DSP than buying a lower end computer with an Apollo audio interface. The exception is people who want to track with plugins but can’t accept the latency of native plugins. The other use case is people with a maxed out computer (ie they have the best available CPU on the market with maxed out RAM) but still want to offload processing to run larger projects.
As a recording engineer I usually track trough UAD's plugins and print the sounds with them, as the instrument is really supposed to sound like it sounds with the plugin on the chain, that's a way to consolidate the sound and the aesthetic right in the recording phase, rather then have someone mess with it latter on (even if that someone is me). Other than this I see no reason quality-wise to print with UAD plugins, as you would have the same sound/timbre inside the DAW as you would have tracking.
I feel the only major advantage for the DSP is for either Live usage, maintaining low buffer size and the Unison preamps,. I've used my apollos live for playback stuff and vocal chain which made it great for outboarding a live console. I've had some scenarios where i used analog consoles and ran a mastering chain through it. It's definitely got its place for usage but it's definitely niche.
Glad you and the fam are alright, Barry. 💪🏼.
i just bought my first Apollo. The Apollo X8 Gen 2. I'm still figuring out how it works. I'm moving up from the Scarlett 18i20 that I've found out now is a very oversimplified interface. I do feel like I got $3K worth of audio interface with the Apollo. I just hope I can use it to its full potential. On a separate note: I'm running a Apple Studio M2 Max. I also just bought the iMac Mini M4 last week. If you upgrade the Ram on Mac Mini M4 then there really isn't any need to buy an Apple Studio. It's every bit as good. I bought my Apple Studio last February 2023 and the Studio hasn't progressed past the M2 chips even now after the M4 was released. Seeing the power of the M4 I'm suspicious if the Apple Studio is going away. A Mac Mini M4 Pro is 1/2 the price of the Studio.
Regarding the Apple studio, the M4 version of the Apple studio do to be released I think first quarter of next year, it’s supposed to destroy everything out there regardless of PC versus Mac. We’ll see if it actually comes to fruition or not though. But I’m looking forward to checking it out.
Great take. Your missing one thing on tracking thu uad plugins, lot of us need or like to hear processing in real time either for clarity and loudness or most used Autotune in real time as we track vocals without latency. I personally like printing a lil bit of compression and clarity direct on my recording just to get to where Im going step by step in small moves. Thats just my personal process.
I guess his point was to rather get more CPU power inside your computer rather than outside.
Processing power is processing power and with enough of it, you can monitor through (any) plugins with minimal latency
@josuastangl7140 I know hes also saying you dont need it no more today and Im pointing out the few reasons why some people still use it.
@@ScantlessBeatz Using it if you have it of course, but buying one now if you don’t already have DSP instead of just a better CPU?
Not so sure
@josuastangl7140 ya the dsp needs to go they need to unlock all the native plugins I hate that I got some of the same plugins native and spark and now they have few things you can only use in Luna that i cant use outside Luna.
I agree with the main points of this opinion video. That said, it seems to me that the problem with UA’s DSP-enhanced interfaces is the processing power of those SHARC chips. If UA figured out how to use the new ARM-based CPUs by Qualcomm, Nvidia, or Samsung to radically beef up the utility of onboard DSP, that might still have some appeal as a component of low-latency processing.
Then again, the effective speed and computing power of modern PCs just keeps progressing so fast that UA can’t possibly keep up, in which case dropping onboard DSP altogether might be the best business model in the long run.
UA can still maintain their brand by staying relevant in two markets: selling actual analog outboard gear, and offering native plugins that emulate them. The analog products then become the “flagship” products that generate a positive “halo” effect for the plugin business. This makes more sense than continually trying to stay current in a commodity market like raw processing power.
Also, another avenue UA should explore would be hybrid products a la Heritage Audio’s i73 line of digital interfaces with vintage analog circuits on the front end.
I have a special use case as a part time voice talent for TV productions. Sometimes I use live connections with the production studio via SessionLink Pro (without a DAW involved), where I have to use a UA Unison plugin to get zero latency while monitoring myself. Not possible with the native plugins.
Hey Barry, great work on those side panels! Do you make them for theSSL UFC1? Great channel, great content! As Hurricane Sandy Survivors glad you are all ok!
I'm checking in from Bradenton FL,the power was out 3 days.
I think the DSP era is over for audio processing. CPUs are plenty fast and efficient enough for those tasks. I am interested to see if there is any future for GPU based audio processing.
cpu's are fast, but still not fast enough. I can put 20 UAD plugins in my session be it compressors, eq's, effects, and have equal latency as if I had no plugins. Its like saying CPU's are fast enough so u dont need a graphics card.
@@yael_valle I am not sure many people need 20 UAD plugins on a session with low latency for mixing. And if you need more plugins than your system can handle, there are other options such as Audiogridder.
CPUs are fast enough 99% of the time but then that other 1% hits when you’re in the middle of the creative process and you hear a couple pops and clicks and have to stop what you’re doing and adjust your buffer size and now all your amp sims have a bit more latency that you have to live with or you can start freezing tracks to see if that helps and by now you’ve forgotten what you were about to add to the song.
Hard real-time systems are awesome, that’s why people love using standalone guitar pedals, just turn them on and they always respond exactly the same way.
I wish UAD hadn’t just suddenly forgotten this when they’ve been the ones preaching it for years. The whole Luna DAW is designed around this idea.
@@Danny-jv3xo I think the market for on-interface DSP is dwindling. UA is still here for those who want or need it.
@@Danny-jv3xo Hard real-time is awesome, but committing to a sound that later on doesn't work is not awesome especially when you're mixing a track. For me I don't just finish the production and then go to mixing, they're very much synonymous to each other and having the ability to mix a track while simultaneously recording with no latency difference is a must for me, if im mixing someone else's track its whatever, but the number of times I've lost a session because my DAW couldn't load all the plugins and audio is insurmountable and I very much prefer the workflow I have now with my Apollo, and I think that there are others who are within that same sentiment. If you're JUST a Mixing/Mastering engineer then that's a whole other discussion, but most people buying Apollo Interfaces are doing all 3 and need that flexibility which no other interface aside from the Apogee Symphony and Antelope Audio Interfaces.
I have no issue with the sounds quality being the same whether you print or don't print the plug in whilst tracking. However, my issue comes with having so much more option paralysis during mix down. I prefer to commit a sound (and maybe split to have a completely clean copy in case of any reamp needs if the record is changed further down the line) because it gives a direction for the sound the record is going to have and I do suffer option paralysis if I haven't printed sounds. It's not a right or wrong thing in my opinion, but it is helpful if you have that issue like I often do.
The inability to utilise the Unison inputs on the new Dream '65 et al plug ins is a kick in the teeth to those who invested in Apollo for that particular feature (in my opinion).
Good video, I agree market is being disrupted. For your video, set manual focus on your face so its not blurry
Glad you’re safe, buddy
You are probably right as their very latest guitar pedals plugins - which sound awesome btw - are native only.
GORGEOUS paneling
I think committing plugins (or traditionally shaping the sound on the console prior to tape) to tape or computer makes sense when you have an accurate control room where you can make proper mixing decisions on the spot and it is the sound you are pretty sure you're going for (esp. if you're recording at a studio, you might not have access to those gears or plugins later). It can actually save time from reproducing the sound later. I guess it would be wise to not over compress, cuz that is hard to undo.
How can you possibly know how you’re going to EQ or compress? If you haven’t already started mixing your mixing for the song, not the track
@@BarryJohns For plugins I personally won’t print to tape, but I guess if you go to a big commercial studio, you might want to get the tone of some certain hardware compressors, I would just go really light on it just for dynamic control. Btw. I’m also a big fan of RME stuff (my first interface was the Multiface back in around 2000, which lasted me for 15 years). Anyways, like your channel a lot and please keep up the good work.👍🏻
Sorry for all the comments: one more, actually on the subject matter of the video this time, and then I’ll shut up- I think UA has realized how much work it is to port all of their plugs to Native format. A new DSP processor could prove similarly challenging in that it may require an entire rewrite…they may not be willing to do that. Perhaps the ones that are already converted to Ntive would prove easier to port on a new chip, maybe something FPGA based.
A lot of truth here. Very well done.
Great discussion. I’ve been on the fence to upgrade either my main interface or computer 🖥️ as I gave my MacBook 💻 to my son for college when I saw ua come out with new stuff I was listening for the dsp upgrade and heard some crickets 🦗 but yeah thanks for helping me make up my mind . 😅
I've been WAITING for you to do this YT Tutorial on UA NEW APOLLO's....I and other know what your going to say, even though I still use My X8P, X6 & Twin Duo until I get the New Apple's M4 "STUDIO" to power my Projects! Happy to hear you survived the Hurricane!
I'm sure when I get my NEW Mac (iMac or Studio) I will most likely STILL keep my Several Apollo's for DSP for PLUG-IN's the UA has NOT converted to "NATIVE"
NO! BARRY! have UA DSP Plug-In's that have not made ot to the NATIVE side w/ UA ( still like you channel...just saying what I use every DAY! ) :) Thx Barry for making this VId ...It's ok if we sometimes disagree :). We would need to talk in person or on Cell to understand where were at TODAY with this Product :) George Amodei.
I would NOT buy another UA Interface! Time to move on! ( but I may still keep my UA Interfaces ... Can't sell it for MUCH! )
Yeah Right? I like the guy but still I need to finally poke my thoughts on this one because I LIVE IN THIS WORLD of Apollo 😜
Yep , i agree so much ! Sold this DOLLAR$$$ EATER last year at the buying price ( A relief and a joy !! )
Dont need some prehistoric Mo chips RAM at 3500$ : 64 Go for 100$ .... My advice : Put a fuc.... 64 GiGa Octets in your computer !!
And you will not have to listen carefully to ear the difference . It is obvious .for 100$ .
great video, I'm pretty sure you're spot on with everything and the predictions 🙂
Glad you’re all ok mate.
With dual buffer systems now, it’s really a non issue, you could still record latency free with the rest of your song at 2048 samples… it’s something that has been solved like 5 years ago already.
That’s Purple Heart by the way. Not Padouk which is on the orange side :)
I’m it’s not, I have a lot of Purple Heart in the garage and this is “similar” but it hit Purple Heart. If you’ve worked with Purple Heart you know it stinks when milling and sanding. Padauk, yes looks orange when orking with it, but spraying poly, this is the way it comes out.
@@BarryJohnsweird, padouk has always stayed on the orange side for me but Purple Heart simply looks like that when I’m done. I’ve never seen a shade of purple like that on padouk but I’ll take your word for it.
How do you record your voice for these? Sounds great.
I plan to do another video on that entire process, as it seems to always be evolving. So just be patient in that video will come out. Trust me it took me a while to get to this point.
I have experience with uad, rme, antelope, hdx, etc, and I'll say Metric Halo is pretty fantastic. Although learning curve is steeper than rme.
Interesting insight about possibility that they will developing new DSP architecture which aimed for AI based plugins
Something I notice a few years ago researching new dsp builds ( was a bss and dbx user ) Analog is not making faster chips. Last time I looked they top out at 800mghz. Or was that a dual core 400mghz. Don't remember. That is. their top of the line chips. It's all 20 year old tech... in the case if bss with their dsp speaker management/networking equipment. Upgrades are just new protocols additions ie. Dante, AvB, madi. Their blu link (was is proprietary but equally functional )....
The Unison impedance matching of the real hardware does make a sonic difference.
In a PT Session with 100 tracks, with a Mac Ultra, 128 Gb Ram, 1 Tb SSD, it's impossible to track without latency. So, UAD lets me do that. What other options for now?
Well, you should go back and look at some of the videos I’ve done in the past where I actually show you in real time that that is not the case. I literally have over 1000 tracks recording at the same time with five plug-ins each on them. At a 32 buffer.
Agreed; but how many people; especially home and mid level studios really needs 100 tracks at a time !!! very very few
Barry is a bit out of touch with real sessions TBH… when you’ve got busses cooking and heavy latency plugins on the mix bus you need the Apollo or HDX or some sort of dsp engine to monitor real time..
@@fosiko123 Composers for media (movies, TV, video, library music and games), especially with virtual orchestra and/or electronic sounds, nearly always need way over 100 tracks. Just one example. And - yes - these are mostly home or mid level studios and some thousands globally.
I would agree that would be true, however, at this price range not a lot of home studios are spending that kind of dough. Regardless, these are things for people to consider when trying to make decisions.
Unison plugins change the impedance to match that plugin’s recreation which wouldn’t be achieved if plugins are added after the fact, even if a close comparison etc
if it is the unison pre-amp of Apollo interface, the software plug-in for instance: UAD Neve 1073 or helios type 69, it would control and change the impedence of Apollo pre-amp, so it makes a difference if you put that pre-amp plug-in during track not in post-production. Or if I am wrong, it would be happy to see a null test on UAD s unison pre-amps.
Hello Mr. Johns. I like your channel and the stuff you talking about. I do like UA also very much,since the Apollo twin recordings are always very satisfying and fun to me. I could get an Apollo X 8P gen 1 for 1850 euros from Thomann here in Germany. Do you think that is a good invest or would you recommend to jump on this not so new gen 2 Apollos? X8P gen 1 is still a powerful choice isn t it? Thanks for teaching us. Greetings from Germany
Hi, I have a question. Do you know if there is a difference between the hardware UAD 1176 and the UAD 2-1176, besides one being stereo ?
Old computers were the birth of DSP. Current Mac processors allow you to make an album on your laptop. We’re getting closer to where everyone wanted to be 25 years ago anyway.