I really love how Zeke’s elemental weakness is earth, and all three times that you fight hem the ensuing cutscene ends with him getting screwed over by the terrain
It's almost like part of the story is that rex is a child and has to learn that even this power has limits and he needs to be a better smarter person to learn how to use it
@@smolggenguffenfugs7844 I be honest sometime about Rex isn’t as engaging as many other jrpgs protagonists, his goals are mostly static from start to finish . And he just lack a good narrative hook to make him as interesting as Jin malos or mythra
@@ninjapotatolorf6237 what about Rex losing to Vandham? Or the fight at Olethro Ruins where he needs to be bailed out by Mythra because her charged in like an idiot? Or losing hard to Jin at Genbu Crown? It's very clear that in the beginning, Rex is a terrible driver who just so happens to have a really powerful blade, and later he's in over his head against opponents way out of his league. Saying Rex doesn't grow over the course of the story is objectively wrong when we have moments like these, and several others I haven't listed.
The difference between Giorno and Rex is that Giorno had a long time to figure out how his Stand worked before he was thrust into the call for action meanwhile Rex doesn't have the time to stop and test his abilities with Pyra because he's constantly being chased by Torna and he doesn't know when another Titan will die.
Malos even has the great line at the end of chapter 7 “Hah! Crush us? You couldn’t take Jin on your own! And on top of that, I’ve regained control of all my Aegis powers! You’re, doomed, boy.” And it’s a really good point. If Pneumas true form didn’t appear, the party definitely would’ve lost to full-power Jin and Malos.
Honestly, Id be fine with them losing, but only if the cutscenes made it make sense In the battles, you're destroying the enemy, and then suddenly the cutscene has you on the brink of defeat. The cutscenes should have BEGAN with you having the upper hand, or at least a false hope, before being swiftly defeated
Losing battles is part of Rex's character arc. He can't help or save everyone. He's just a kid who was forced into a heroic position because of an interaction he could've just as easily avoided if he had taken different action.
I'd consider adding a Pyrrhic Victory counter if you do this again, as it kind of feels wrong including obvious wins like Dughall with devastating events like Vandham and Fan La Norne.
Having characters lose battles is mandatory for their development. There is no feeling of accomplishment if you never had problems after all. In my opinion Rex's victory at the cliffs of morytha felt so good because he had to go through so much trouble. Especially compared to other fights like the one where mythra first appeared. Rex didn't know Mythra existed. It was not Rex's own doing that brought the victory. But at the cliffs of Morytha it was him. He learned from his mistakes and was able to succeed.
Noone complains that he loses though, that's a strawman. People complained that he loses TOO MUCH. Which is a completely separate claim. If your protagonist always loses and never wins and at the end of the day saves the world by sheer luck because everytime he was about to lose, some asspull made him win anyway, that's not good character development. Now I don't have an opinion on if that is the case with XB2, but that was the complaint. NOONE complained about him losing, just about the perceived notion that he loses way too often and if he wins, then usually by a deus-ex-machina that saves him from an assured loss. Which is a completely separate complaint from "He lost so i don't like him".
@@cardboardtubeknight ahh the good old "I win the fights but the cutscene says NEIN" happens in a lot of games. a tale old as time itself, one that i wish we did not have
For me, the main difference between xc1&2 is that xc1 is more story focused while xc2 is more character focused. So its understandable that xc2 feel like the characters lose more, because you need setbacks for character growth.
That is a major reason I prefer 2 over 1. I value characters and gameplay over story, and I like the cast and gameplay of XC2 more than I like the cast and gameplay of XC1. The stories are on point though, as they're both very good.
Idk know I found more character growth in 1. Pyra doesn’t get any growth whatsoever. Rex only grows in power and is also the same character. The only real growth I’d give to zeke for having to mature when he finds the truth of his kingdoms origins
@@firenze6478 compared to literally everyone in XC1 who isn't Shulk or Melia. Pretty much every party member except those two is the same person they were when they joined up.
@@firenze6478 What about Pyra's suicidal tendencies she inherited from Mythra, which she and Mythra gotten over together when Rex finally knows their true goal? Thus her wanting to continue up to Elysium with Rex afterwards, just so they can save the world and stop Malos. Same with Rex, on how he didn't know their intentions at first, but still wants to help them get to Elysium after finding out. Helping both Pyra/Mythra and Nia, showing they don't have to hide or be in fear anymore. Him wanting to go and find the truth and roles for everyone, not just him and his friends, or saving Alrest. Even though he figured out the truth for why people have blades by their side, while climbing up the World Tree.
After watching the video, my theory as to why people say that Rex loses so much is because 3 of the 5 out right losses happen in the first three chapters of the game (with some likely considering the fight against Morag in chapter 2 as a loss as well). And I wouldn't be surprised if a decent number of people who make this complaint never got much further than chapter 4 at most.
It makes senses that Rex would be losing early game because he is new at being a driver. Doesn't matter how strong the weapon is if you don't know to properly use it.
Shulk also loses a lot in the beginning too, so it's a pretty hypocritical complaint. Of course they would lose if the enemy is ultra powerful and they don't understand what they're up against. I think people saying Rex loses every other battle is only looking for details that support why they don't like Rex while ignoring the bigger picture.
@@bryanjames5470 Shulk loses the first Metal Face and Xord fight. They retreated but not because of Shulk. With Metal Face, he gained nothing and lost Fiora, and with Xord, he didn't save Juju, so they both resulted in a loss. Also Shulk loses the second Metal Face fight too. They were saved by the Telethia, which was an unknown ally (well, Alvis was an ally, not the Telethia), so by Luxin's rule, it would count as a loss.
Basically, people have the feeling of lose a lot because they success a lot, but with a hell amount of collateral damage. Nice video, I'm still amazed by the Rex effects on the puntuation table xD
I think the idea that rex looses every other fight comes more from how he has more losses/deus-ex-machina perceived victories in the early game, and people made their opinion on the whole story based on just the first few chapters.
Sadly this is how people played the game, worse is that most people that have ridiculous comments comes from Xenoblade 1 that think Shulk is the 2nd coming of christ..
@@vivid8979 Honestly, replaying Xenoblade 1 after the definitive edition came out, I realized just how many issues it had that 2 fixed and I kept wishing it were more like 2. That's when I realized that 2 was my favorite. There's so many limitations on battle, characters that left in the background, and ridiculous plot points that some how people forgive, but they can't forgive Rex's screams (which get better as he gets used to the character) or the fact that a character has big boobs. Because to me, it has the better story, the better wrap of both 1 and 2, the better characters and the btter combat.
@@sj4iy did the same thing yesterday and yeah, have to agree with you completely on this. It's astounishing how some people ignore the game blatant problems, for instances, inconsistency in characters' personalities. Imo, xc1 was a good, flawed game that become the stepping stones for the franchise to improve itself upon, not the "perfect flawless masterpiece" some of the fans made it sound like. Xc2 to me has more depth to its combat, better villains, a more balanced party and overall a more intrigued story. It even elevate zanza from being simply the "insert your world conquering machine here" he was in the first game. Xc2 pacing was jarring at times though. Chapter 5 was more or less walking simulation :))
Loss makes this game so memorable to me. In my first playthrough, Pyra/Mythra is so powerful so I basically just use them to win every fight until Jin in Tantal. When Jin said Rex did not even notice that Pyra/Mythra has so many wounds on her, it shook me to my very core. And then the next chapter I did not have any great blade to use with Pyra/Mythra gone, suddenly I just realized how important she is and how much I’ve taken her for granted. I think the devs wanted me to lean on Pyra/Mythra so much, so this loss would be more heart felt. It worked and it’s simply masterful.
What I especially like about chapter 7 is that Pyra and Mythra missing is an active detriment to the party. Fire combos are extremely useful (especially since they stack on themselves), and Rex only has one topple art; anchor shot. Not only do you lose a very powerful blade that you've relied on up to this point, but you also lost a very reliable topple art. Great way to integrate gameplay and story.
I've never been bothered by Rex losing some fights in XB2. It's not like Trails of Cold Steel (especially ToCS2) where your party is always beaten down (even if you slaughtered the ennemies in the fight) and end up being rescued by someone else. Or having the ennemies do the 'I wasn't even at full power' trick...
*SPOILERS FOR XENOBLADE 1* Party's losses: Metal Face at Colony 9 The 3 Monado Art fights Metal Face outside Ether Mine Jade Face at Mechonis Field Gold Face at Galahad Fortress Yaldabaoth at Agniratha Zanza at Mechonis Core Dickson's Telethia aboard Junks Let me know if I missed any or included ones that shouldn't count. Edit: Xord at Bionis Leg Telethia Horde at Colony 6
Well it makes sense Rex loses a lot thorough the story. Dude's 15 and works as a salvager in a dying world just to make a living while sending money to his family in Leftheria, he wants to find a way up to Elysium and makr an impactful change thanks to his kind-hearted spirit and once he finds himself as the driver of the Aegis and finds her goal is to also get to Elysium he's more motivated than ever to achieve that goal, which of course drives him to act recklessly out of good nature and he's still pretty much a newbie as a driver who just happens to have one of the most powerful blades in history so it makes sense he loses against baddies like Jin and Malos and then once he gets his sht together after the events at Tantal and finally understands Pyra/Mythra he starts to grow as both a person and driver which leads to the dúo winning more
I'm convinced the Ahkos fight in Garfont is comprised of two different versions of the same scene. My reasoning for this is that Vandham is right there when the fight starts and is personally motivated to avenge his fallen allies, but then after the gameplay he comes in all nonchalant like he only just got involved. He literally says he "can't leave kids alone for a second" even though you can have him fight Ahkos with everyone else. Where was he before then? Where is everyone else while Pyra is getting beat up? My theory is that the cutscene before the fight is a version where Ahkos rolls up and takes on everyone, and the cutscene after is from a version where he instead gets Rex and Pyra alone to pick them off easier, and at some point these two scenes got spliced together despite not fitting together perfectly.
I feel the same, I wasn’t sure why the cutscene felt off other than Vandham kinda disappearing and then appearing at the second part of the cutscene but I think you’re probably right with your theory
Did you know, commenting helps out Luxin, just like hitting the like button? From the top of my head, think they only lose to Jin sort of and Brighid that one time.
Xenoblade fans complain about MC getting his ass handled to him a couple of times by some of the top fighters in the verse. Meanwhile in Trails MC needs to be bailed out of fight with a dozen of mooks each chapter, and he's still treated as one of the best fighters around. What a strange contrast.
You've done a pretty good job here at disproving the specific complaint regarding "win in the game lose in the cutscene." However, there is definitely still something going on here to cause such a major disconnect for so many people, even if the complaint most often raised doesn't exactly match up to how the scenarios unfold. Perhaps a slightly better way to word the complaint would be "the cutscene stole my win." The biggest examples are definitely fighting/escaping from Morag and the first Akhos fight. Sure, the gang do ultimately escape Morag and scare of Akhos, matching a reasonably expectable result from defeating their boss fights, but the events that occur between the gameplay ending and those scenes conclusions can majorly contrast against a player's experience. I imagine most people who care about this stuff will have seen all the specific complaints around these scenarios before, so I'll keep it rather short and say that the difficulties Rex experiences in both cutscenes are not properly represented in the boss fights. This can create a major rift between what the player has just experienced, winning the fight, and what the player sees immediately afterwards, Rex struggling. In some respects, the fact that the gang DO end up with at least modest success by scenes' end may actually further exasperate these feelings. It implies that the group's escape/victory was never within the player's agency, the boss fights were merely formalities. Technically this is true, given that the game only has one narrative path, but these moments of contrast can really pull back the curtain in a way that was clearly detrimental to the enjoyment of many. When first playing the game I definitely had a reaction after the Morag battle of "Whyyyyy is this scene still going? I... won the fight, that should really be it." and while it didn't substantially sour my experience overall (I still really did have a lot of fun with the game and enjoyed the overall narrative) I can definitely understand it being a dealbreaker for many.
This is exactly what happened to me. I beat the boss and expect the cutscene that follows to imply that my win will directly translate into the cutscene in a short span of time, but it often takes a few minutes for your win to actually become a win so the whole things feels kinda trivial. You pretty much put my thoughts into words
I think another gameplay disconnect is when a boss fight is easy for a player, it’s not just a matter of the cutscenes not reflecting the gameplay outcome of the fight. It’s also that the cutscenes juxtapose the feelings players might have during the fight. Theoretically at any point in a JRPG, you could grind to max level, to the point where you’re stronger than you would’ve been when you actually do beat your early game rival in the story. In some ways, JRPGs that do have cutscenes that vastly vary from your experience are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They’re giving you the tools and mechanics to win fights, but still want to tell a narrative that assumes you struggle.
@@samkeiser9776 I think this element is also what makes the losses Shulk faces feel more valid. When you lose fights to Metal Face or Xord, those scenes happen after battles that are essentially impossible for you to actually win on a first playthrough, and indeed you are not expected to win any of those fights before the cutscene jumps in. Instead of creating a sense of "Wait, I just beat this person, why is my character getting their butt kicked now?" it creates a sense of "Geeze, this opponent is really powerful, its pretty clear I can't beat this guy yet!"
This feels like a take from immersion people crying again and I hate it. I just cannot be bothered to care about whether my gameplay translates over to the cutscene because then they'd have to make every single story related battle have various potential ways it can play out after them based on how you did and no developer has the fucking time, energy or resources to do stupid, pointless shit like that. It just doesn't actually matter lmao
Dude just finish watching Chuggas latest episode of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 I hope this doesn't have as many feels then again we are talking about losing battles Ill still watch though.😭😢
its funny how rex and co has 31 wins and the least losses yet they'll still try to say somehow that addam was better when addam was a failure driver for mythra and didn't accept her and failed because he feared her power instead of mastering it, rushing to fight malos like an idiot. glad to see rex getting some love for a change.
Umm u do know that addam wasn't mythra true driver right? Rex was always the true driver it was never addam and he didn't rush in to fight malos they had no choice but to fight and win which they succeed but malos was to strong so he didn't die
Maybe it's just me but I enjoyed the story and all the "losses" people are complaining about and never stuck out to me as a negative. A lot of stories are just like XC2. 🤷♂️ In my four decades on this earth I've found people tend to remember or focus on the negatives (loss) to the point they are exaggerated so much they begin to out weigh the positives (win) even if more positives happened than negatives. People tend to lose sight of positives when they get aggravated.
This is called negativity bias and is a well established feature of life in general, because it draws attention to sources of problems. So now you know. :)
I think the way people see it is that many of the loses are at the start and many of the wins are against minor monsters that many people forget about soon after the big fights against main characters where a lot of the losses are against.
I was fine with him losing the fights because just think about it story-wise Rex has very little experience actually fighting sure he's fought bugs and shit before while savaging but he has never fought other humans and when he becomes a driver he is fighting some of the most powerful drivers in the world. Would it make sense for Rex who has been a driver for like 2 days to beat Morag who has been a driver for years and is considered one of the most powerful driver in the Empire? Would it also make sense for Rex to beat Malos on the ship WHEN HE JUST CAME BACK TO LIFE AND DOESN'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO FIGHT
I understand what you're getting at but I feel like the reason people complain about Rex losing isn't that he actually does but that Rex himself feels weak in comparison to his enemies for most of the game. Take the example of his clear victory against Mikhail and Petroka. It's undercut both by Morag joining and Petroka implying she could still fight after. Shulk feels a lot stronger the whole way through. Every time Shulk almost loses and is bailed out by a Monado art it makes Shulk feel stronger but when Rex gets battered around by Akhos only for the party to deal with him it makes Rex feel weaker.
So let's see First Malos fight, they reduce the HP to 0 and escape. In the King/Brighid fight, they reduce the HP to 0 and escape with friends getting captured, In the Morag fight, they reduce their HP to 0, and escape, In the Vandham fight, Vandham lays off and decides to get them some grub. With Akhos, they force a retreat. With Malos and Akhos, they force a retreat.. Morag, they persuade an alliance. Jin in Temperantia, he runs out of stamina. Jin in Tantal, they lose in both gameplay and cutscene as his Health is never brought to 0. Malos, Nia weaponizes cancer and they win. Jalos, the fight is interrupted with Malos getting pissed off at the fact they're losing. Jin in World Tree, they persuade an alliance. Amalthus, they don't land the final blow, but they still gave him "an incredible thrashing." Why do people say they win in gameplay, lose in story, exactly?
Really interesting to see this boiled down like this When/if you do the XC1 one, I think it's definitely going to have more losses, not just because of Monado arts, but I'm pretty sure there's a fair few fights where you deal *some* damage, but don't kill the enemy (like MF in Chapter 2), which would count as losses I think since the boss doesn't lose. The only real question of a XC1 one would be if FC counts, since unlike Torna, you have a majority of the party being party members from the base game. Although, I think the only loss that'd tack on would be the Alcamoth fight sorta in the middle of the story, when the fog king first shows up.
Riding the Chuggaaconroy hype (and his video where he specifically mentioned you [in a tweet]) you should go over the points for/against the lose/keep their memories for the ending.
It’s not that simple dunkey doesn’t like jrpgs so every time he “reviews” part of his negative bias get in the way. My biggest question is why does he keep playing them
@@rexthewolf3149 To be honest people care too much about 1 person's opinion. It's crazy how fans can turn into like a cult that worship his words to be powerful.. Wether he dislikes it or not means nothing IMO he's just another dude playing a video game in my eyes.
I’m a dunkey fan but I don’t really care much about his whole JRPG thing because they do have some pretty silly stuff out of context that I don’t mind making fun of sometimes. And Dunkey’s made it pretty clear that these are based on his own personal opinions so he’s not trying to act like the arbiter of quality or anything.
I'd like to see more videos like this, where you take criticism about Xenoblade 2 and analyze it and see if they have a point. Maybe you could do the topic of people wanting Zeke to be the main character over Rex
The criticism was just there terrible voice acting especially rex and Nia and sometimes tora and the annoying protagonist rex his character development isn't great cringe describe him and mostly whinny that's it overall the game is awesome and rex improve at the end
Having the battles end part way into them would be better story-wise, since alot of the fights are wins not from defeating the enemy, but achieving a goal - which often doesn't include defeating the enemy.
The problem is how to balance it gameplay-wise, in xc1 there’s a dozen fights you don’t get exp from because they end early. It’s even more of an issue for xc2, because you can’t get chain overkill exp if the fight ends too early. I’d be fine with fights ending early if they give exp and if the next game doesn’t have something like overkills, otherwise I’m not too sure about the best way to balance it
I think the reason people complain about the "win in the fight, lose in the cutscene" thing (besides memes from the dunkey video) is that, for some puzzling reason, Monolith got it right in the first game and then proceeded to do a poorer job in the second (technically third if you count X). In the same situations where you'd win the fight and lose in the cutscene in 1, usually you don't actually get to fully deplete the boss' health bar. Examples are Metal Face in Colony 9, Xord's first two fights and further spoilery fights beyond. Hopeless situations in 1 are actually hopeless ingame and not just in the cutscene afterwards, which makes it a bit jarring they didn't opt to do the same in 2.
It's because in Xenoblade 2, they want you to overkill bosses with Chain Attacks so you can get bonus experience for it. If they did the same thing they did in 1, then it would be detrimental to that gameplay element. Not to mention that from what I've heard around half of the bosses in 1 end the fight early and dont guve the player experience. Meaning that the player is going to be under powered unless they grind.
@@jackleveille9319 That is a good point. Although, I don't think I've ever been in need of extra experience from story bosses in either game, so it wouldn't really be a big deal, but it might have been contradictory and frustrating to players who'd be expecting to overkill every boss.
I'd argue that XC1's issue of not actually letting you beat the boss is still detrimental, even more so than win the flight/lose the cutscene in XC2 (which I don't think is a big issue in the slightest). In XC1, the level curve is completely out of whack. You either do sidequests, and you don't even need to do very many, and now you're completely overlevelled and crush everything in the game which makes the forced losses in the story even more noticeable, or you only do main quests and end up severely underlevelled because most bosses don't give exp since the fight ends early, and it's nearly impossible to fight anything 5 or more levels above you. Expert mode kinda helps the overlevelled from sidequests issue, but it actually makes it very difficult to level up without dipping into you bonus exp reserve since enemies give laughably low amounts of experience.
Not only do you not lose a lot, for the Chapter 7 Jin fight, you even don't win in the fight! You knock his HP down a tiny bit and then the fight ends! This complaint is so stupid
Telling a story that conflicts with gameplay context is something that is a rejection of the strengths of games as a medium. Xenoblade Chronicles 1 showed the main characters lose battles by showing the enemies as being practically undefeatable in gameplay.
@@CJojo_13_ on the flip side, Xenoblade 1 also has bosses that I'm very capable of beating but the fight ends early because they're supposed to be super powerful. It goes both ways.
@@CJojo_13_ maybe it's just me and how I play, but I'd rather win the boss fight and lose in the cutscene than be perfectly capable of beating a boss, but it's scripted to end before I do meaning I get no rewards. If I'm to have a forced loss, I'd rather have the enemy way outclass me so I can't help but lose.
@@conorb.1901 I guess this is just going to come down to a difference in preference (which I respect), but I personally prefer for my games to have gameplay and story be in harmony, or at least not conflict with each other. This is a small part of why Disco Elysium is one of my favorite role playing games in recent memory.
Really what annoys me more is the double bosses. Rose then Mik and Petroka soon after. The arachno followed shortly by Akhos, and the chairman followed by the second Morag fight. It wouldn't be so bad if they were just second phases, it just specifically how you beat one boss, go down a short hallway, and then fight another boss.
Personally I think the issue isn't really about Rex & Co. "losing too many fights and/or getting bailed out by deus ex machina nonsense" so much as *"the game has an issue of making the cutscene trigger for most of the story fights where the party aren't supposed to win require players to reduce said bosses' HP to 0, causing ludonarrative dissonance"* I also think Xenoblade 2 should've been given more development time & staff, launching no sooner than early March 2018 (Switch Anniversary scheme) instead of a mere two weeks after Super Mario Odyssey, so what would I know?
the problem with that is.. XC1 had a notorios problem that you either did all sidequests ,and where overleveld as fuck, or mostly did main quests, and where underleveled as fuck because half the bosses dont give you EXP because the fight ends at 50% health. It just made the already butched leveling curve in XC1 worse XC2, solved that better, not only did you gain more EXP with overkill, you also gained EXP(and possible overkill XP) from every Major boss in the game. making a mostly mainquest platrough doable without much grind(infact, thats what i did, i mostly did main quests, and i was SLIGHTLY underleved at the end, did the same in XC1, and i ended up having to spend 3 hours leveling up for Dickson)
@@weberman173 Yeah, the whole idea of ending a fight early would've been detrimental to the gameplay element of overkilling a boss to get more experience.
People keep talking about the fights he loses, but fail to realize that this 15 year old kid is quite literally beating the shit out of creatures and drivers left and right, and loses only to: - An (mildly broken, later fixed) aegis. - The best driver in mor Ardaign, and the national treasure blade(which he later matches in skill). - The best Driver (and father figure) in Uraya. Which is less a loss and more a lesson. - A bullshit blade that stops the flow of ether. So Bs it had to be killed off. - The literal incarnation of the "Nothing personal kid" meme in blade form. And he beat him later on.
Counterargument to the Malos/Ahkos fight: Rex didn't know about Mythra and the team was going to get completely wiped out if she didn't show up. By your own criteria, this should count as a loss, or at the very least a success, given that they did what they were trying to do, but at a heavy cost. Or can we make a new category for pyrrhic victories?
By his criteria, it’s either if the party is hinted at their new power, or the enemy knew about it, it’s not a lost. In this case, Malos knew about Mythra beforehand
Funny, I don't like a lot of the logic used in this, but I agree with the outcome. Rex himself might lose a few fights when you only focus on him, but as a party they don't actually lose a lot and there really isn't a lot of Deus Ex Machina protecting them when they do lose. Not that it never happens, it just isn't frequent. However, the one thing I do want to argue is regarding characters that, in cutscenes, are part of the party, helping out with stuff, but aren't playable. You were rather hesitant to include Haze's help during the Jin fight or Jin's fight during the Amalthus fight. According to the cutscenes, they are there helping the entire time even though you can't play as them. Haze doesn't come out of nowhere to stop Jin before he can deal the killing blow, she's there supporting the party before he even appears, helping weaken him the entire fight. She's not playable, but she is a part of the party. Same with Jin in the Amalthus fight. He is shown to be there the entire time, I mean you just fought him moments before. Yes, he is severely injured, but he is helping as best he can. Just because you can't control him, doesn't mean he isn't on your side. Them helping win their respective fights is no different than when a playable character helps with a fight in a cutscene at a time when they aren't playable. The only real instance of this I can think of is Zeke during the fight against the knights, where he isn't playable, then the fight with a group of knights is about to start in a cutscene and he comes in and defeats them all at once. He is not a playable character in the party when that happens, only rejoining the party after that fight. But similar situations would be Mythra's appearance in the fight where Vandham dies (which has the added support of Pyra having theoretically been able to awaken her at any point) or Nia having her Blade form. Overall, an enjoyable video. Nice to see someone defend the game in this kind of argument
I think the complaint is more so how in XC1 battles you can't win the enemy's health won't go to zero, but in XC2 that rarely happens instead, even if you take down an enemy they'll be fine in the cutscene. (Although my knowledge is a bit rusty so forgive me if I'm wrong)
I'd personally rather have the enemy's hp drop to zero. I get my exp, gold, and other rewards. Because XC1 ends a lot of boss fights before the reach zero, I get no rewards, so what was the point of the boss fight? If you're going to only let me fight Yaldabaoth until he's at half hp (and he's not very hard, it's easy to get him to that threshold), why not just let me fight him until one of us hits zero hp? I (unintentionally) had him toppled for a good few minutes, I was in a position where I was guaranteed a win, but the game said "no, you can't beat this boss because story." I'd much rather fight the freaking boss than have the game skimp out on a boss fight by preventing me from killing the boss. If you want me to lose a fight, then pit me against an opponent that I stand no chance against. Make me do very little damage and lose a good chunk of hp for getting hit. I would rather take the loss from an enemy that clearly outclasses me than a scripted loss where it is within my capabilities to defeat the boss.
@@heehomgee4671 my bad, I like to keep my thoughts on a given subject in one paragraph even if it makes it less than coherent. I find it's better to separate separate subjects otherwise I'd go on a huge tangent and wind up on a subject that's completely different than what we started on. Happens in most conversations I'm in (and I'm usually the one who caused the tangent in the first place lol)
Gotta be honest: the fact that Vandham’s death and Haze’s death doesn’t immediately count as a loss feels wrong, mainly because that was essentially a loss for Rex, even if they end up forcing their opponents to retreat. I’d also consider Amalthus at least not as a win because Akhos, Patroka and Jin die (which Rex would consider a loss), as well as some dialogue suggesting that it’s essentially a stalemate for them, as they’re doing fine, but so’s Amalthus, so you could easily argue that Amalthus attempting to bring down the World Tree is because neither side is winning. Also, just generally, a lot of the “win in the fight, lose in the cutscene” could be made completely correct if you just change it to “win in the fight, losing in the cutscene”, as they usually begin the cutscene at a disadvantage
I mean there is literally an actual term for these types of wins. These are Pyrrhic Victories, wins that are so devastating to the victors that they feel like losses even if the ultimate aim of the battle is won.
A bit late but I'll day I think why it feels like Rex loses all the time because the gameplay really doesn't match and that makes people grumpy. Like I remember my first Grand Rosa fight, I was so strong I could literally have put the controller down and not even lose 20% of my health before winning. So when the next cutscene stressed how hard the fight was and how we needed new Poppi to save us, I was more mad than anything else. Logically we won the fight, but emotionally I felt like I just got kicked in the shin.
I feel like the criticism of Rex losing too much is just a poorly worded criticism. Maybe "Rex is too weak" is a better criticism. Both Rex and Pyra get wrecked way too often. Sure they get up and win but it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in your protagonists. Can't help but feel something along the lines of "do I actually want these losers to win?" Even when Shulk loses, it doesn't feel like he loses because he's weak. Sure he eats dirt plenty of time but I expect a giant Mechon being able to do that. One of my favorite scenes in Xenosaga is Episode I where KOS-MOS bursts through the wall and saves Shion. The Aegis is hyped up to be as big of a deal as KOS-MOS and gets bodied a lot. It creates a disconnect with the story. Pyra's gameplay is not even impressive until mid to late game. At least Mythra actually feels like she's the real deal.
I played through Xenoblade 2 for the first time last month, and I'm playing through 3 right now, and whenever a battle ends early, or I finish a battle and the opponent is either unharmed, or winning in the cutscene, I refer to as a "Xenoblade 2 event"
Having your hero lose some fights they're not ready for, or need to be bailed out of fights they're not ready for, or suffer consequences for getting into fights they're not ready for, are all part of what makes characters memorable. If your hero never loses or suffers major consequences for biting off more than they can chew too soon, even if they win that fight, where's the tension? You'd end up with a flat character who never progresses or develops.
@@aneonfoxtribute I know only story. We got all of the other quest, all of the blade quest plus maxing out all of their affinity charts, challenge mode, all of the dlc and new game plus blades, and all of the Torna DLC.
@@Magic_Ice yeah, XC2 has a ton of content. I've got over 600 hours in it (and Torna), and I don't think I've done everything yet, and even if I do, I'm probably not going to stop playing it.
The point isn't about the percentage but the raw amount of fights that make you feel bad AFTER fighting a hard battle to win it. Your reward for beating the boss and kicking the crap out of their hp bars is being told "lol no... You suck." This is where: "supposed to lose" fights feel better in other JRPGs, because at least the gameplay reflects the story. In the Morag fight near the start of the game they could've made you attack the water tower instead and have Morag be a hazard or something if they wanted to have an 'alternate win condition' over beating the boss. There is gameplay Vs narrative dissonance that just feels very very disappointing
How would the manado arts count as a loss but unlocking mythra isn't, shulk activity knows the manado has more arts, the mecon also know it has more arts and you say if it's clear to the player that also counts to purge also is justified
I think that the issue people have with "Win in the fight but loose in the cut scene" is that they see the boss's HP go to zero thus the boss should be dead. They become frustrated when the character is still alive and gets away, thus they interpret it as a loss. They are unable to separate gameplay from story.
They shouldn’t have to separate gameplay from story. since you could just have the boss is health go down to a certain point then cut to the cut scene I know FF7R does that and I think even xc1 does that.
Eeeh, I’d argue that any fight where somebody the party wants to keep alive dies is a loss, and I can see the argument that Rex getting his ass kicked and needing to be bailed out by his badass mentor figure - playable or not - is his loss too even if it’s the party’s win. Similarly, against Amalthus the party *fails* to save Akhos and Patroka, and then *fails* to save Jin too because he has to blow himself up to finish Amalthus off. For a fight they explicitly go into with the hope of showing Jin Rex’s answer and giving him a chance to live and move on, I can’t call that a success at attaining their goal. Still, that’s only a couple of points, and frankly I think Rex losing a lot is *good* for the story arc. ~~also, the final battle is clearly a moral defeat, because Rex’s goal is to save Malos but he has to kill him instead. :p~~
Before watching the video: XC2 puts the player in a position where they are forced to win battles to progress the game, however it is also content to have the player lose or retreat after the fight in the following cutscene - therefore souring the player on the experience. You have a series of half-wins and bitter hurrahs going through the story, so that you really don't look forward to your next encounter with the bad guys. The game is raining on your parade. When you beat a challenge in a game, you expect satisfying feedback. If you put a lot of effort into something and the feedback is underwhelming, you are going to feel dissatisfied. Winning or losing is both an outcome and a mindset. A soured victory can be just as much a loss if not more (and vice versa). Given how XC2 has a tendency for souring your victories, you may end up feeling like they aren't accomplishing anything. And I wouldn't be surprised if some players just stopped playing after a while of feeling like this. After watching the video: This is a great video!! Your reasoning and focus on overall goals are solid and paints a much better picture than how it may be perceived by the player. Good stuff! Having said that, it does ignore the perception of the player, which is more focused on the now than in the grand scheme of things. Also, you do refer to Rex and the party interchangeably, despite the title specifically referring to Rex. This is misleading. I would like to offer this alternative perspective in respect to the player experience and Rex in the cutscenes after beating the bosses (only where I disagree with you): 1. Rex fails to beat Morag and must retreat. It feels like a loss. 2. Rex fails to beat Akhos and Vandham saves you. The method is rather poorly explained, and Pyra is left weakened. So it feels like a loss. 3. Rex fails to beat Akhos and Malos, and Vandham tries to save you. The method is rather confusing and ultimately fruitless, with Vandham dying as a result and Mythra has to be introduced to give Rex a power-up to win. Rex is left a sobbing mess. This feels like a major loss. 4. Rex fails to beat Mikhail and Patroka, and Morag has to step in for support so Mythra can employ a space laser. Mikhail and Patroka only retreats because Fan la Norne suddenly comes in. So you did not win, and since you couldn't succeed on your own, it ultimately feels like a loss. 5. Rex fails to beat Jin who is so mighty that even Fan la Norne cannot suppress his powers (her very specific power that forced Mikhail and Patroka to retreat), and he just rushes right up to her and kills her in front of everyone. Jin only retreats because he wastes his stamina on talking, would've won if he handn't. This is clearly a loss. 6-7. Rex does beat technically Akhos, Mikhail, and Patroka initially, but... Jin is also here so the fight is technically not over. Suddenly Rex and crew gets absolutely demolished and humiliated, with the trip joining in on the fun, and Rex loses Pyra on top of it all, who just barely convinces Jin not to kill you. It's a doubles-loss as far as we're concerned, since it is all in the same encounter. Almost a triple loss with how much salt is getting rubbed into Rex's wounds. 8. Rex fails to beat the phantasms, and Nia has to stop being a moron and use her actual powers (I understand her story, but Rex has already lost at this point). While Nia's transformation only seems to turn a probably loss into a probably win, Rex does friendzone Nia at the same time. And that just breaks my heart and feels like a massive L. 9. Rex fails to beat Malos, and Nia pulls out some magical cancer-inducing powers to temporarily subdue him, with heavy emphasis on the "temporarily". You could call it a win, but he's back on his feet in a few seconds like nothing happened and unharmed. This ultimately feels like a loss as a result, because... 10. Rex fails to beat Malos and Jin, and Pneuma suddenly appears to give Rex super speed power-up. Even with this new advantage, Rex passes up an actual victory for a draw with Jin, and Malos breaks the whole arena they are on, sending Rex and crew tumbling down. This technically makes Malos the victor, so this is a loss for us. So that would total 15 losses out of 41, x3 as many losses. This is a matter of perspective, and you cannot fault people for how they feel. Again, winning and losing are both a matter of outcome and mindset.
"'Rex fails to beat Morag." Morag did point out that Rex averted his aim. If Rex had hit Morag with that last attack she atleast would have been injured. With Brighid being wett and Morag being injured the team could have taken her out by ganging up on her. So Rex choose to flee instead of going fore the kill. Otherwise Morag would have died. I see that as a clear win for Rex and his team.
@@sofaris576 I don't consider retreat a win condition under any circumstance. Especially when I have to "win" a fight to earn the freedom of running with my tail between my legs. But you are absolutely correct and this is a valid interpretation of events. Since running away was the original goal, and they succeeded, then that is a clear, undisputed win for Team Rex.
I don't mind a protagonist losing battles, but I do dislike the dissonance when you won against a boss then the following cutscene shows that you lost anyway. If we are suppose to lose that fight, make it an impossible fight for the player to beat.
I think the perception largely just comes down to gameplay limitations. Narrative objectives such as "escape", "force enemy into position" and the like kinda all get muddied down to gameplay objectives of "reduce health bar to 0", which makes it feel like the game is discounting your victory because the victory you did get in gameplay was of a far greater magnitude than that which the cutscene shows. Although I will say that I think it is somewhat fair to feel a bit sour about gameplay leading into a cutscene where the characters are getting stomped down, only to eventually come out on top, because many feel that reducing a healthbar to 0 should be the end to the actual fight, which is why a lot of games will follow this up with either immediate death or a cutscene that is more or less a onesided beatdown delivered by the player/party (after all, if the game is well designed, an actual struggle that goes back and forth should have already been delivered in the gameplay). A better approach used by some games, including Xenoblade 2 at points, is to instead just play cutscenes depicting the party struggling at health benchmarks other than 0 (not to say this approach is without issues itself, I found it to disorient me during quite a lot of fights, and if the gameplay is just an absolute beatdown from your hands getting cut short by you getting your ass kicked when the opponent has 50% health left, that's also a bit annoying... or the Dickson fight that was just me stomping on him until they showed a cutscene of Shulk being all like "oh no, he's too powerful" so the party could go, "don't worry, we have the power of friendship"). As for win/loss criteria, I think that how the game frames the situation and what the party makes clear they think of it is also to be considered. For instance, the party does not consider the Malos/Akhos fight to be a victory at all, even if the criteria used here do. It is somewhat akin to marking down Colony 9 as a victory because the Mechon were eventually forced to retreat.
Yeah but those are actually fights where the gameplay and story are connected to where the boss can’t actually be defeated in normal gameplay, and while Rex doesn’t lose as much as everyone says there are still fights where the gameplay lets the player win but the story results in a loss
@@falconstriker87 The only difference between the Xenoblade 1 fights and the Xenoblade 2 fights are that the Xenoblade 1 fights end before the health bar gets to zero, while the 2 fights end with a health bar of zero. You still feel like you are beating the boss handedly in many of those fights in both games. Having the fights end before the health reaches zero also has some issues that break immersion as well. Like when you fight Metal Face for the first time, I have several times done chain attacks that end up doing zero damage on him because I had reached the end of the fight threshold. A lot of the fights you lose in 1 aren't even hard fights, so it can feel really weird where you are supposed to have a really difficult fight, but it turns out to be really easy. Compare this to the Jin and Malos or Akhos and Malos fights. Before the cut-scene power-ups, you have some really hard fights that are a real struggle to get through. You barely survive the fight and then in the cutscene, you character is barely surviving. With the fight with Addam's shadow, you probably spend a bunch of time fighting as more continuously spawn that first time you do the fight. The exact same thing continues in the cutscene. This even happens with the Dughal fight; he is really hard to hit the whole fight because he keeps running away from you and letting his blade tank the hits. They then address this in the cutscene. Compare this to the fight with Metal Face, you basically can't lose the fight. When you play as Lady Meyneth for a fight, you literally can't lose. (You can actually lose in new game +, but not in your first playthrough.) Then, in the cut-scenes after both fights, your characters are revealed to have no chance. I actually played through 1 recently with my mom, and she got frustrated quite a few times by me winning fights, but losing in cutscenes. Both games have this problem. It didn't bother me in either game because I don't associate health bars with life force. And both games have some good examples of gameplay and story integration. When you fight the High Entia in Alcamoth, Shulk only does one damage because the Monado doesn't work on High Entia yet. Or having the vision during the fight with Egil.
@@falcondjd exactly this. So many boss fights in XC1 are doable and actually fairly easy. For example, during my playthrough of DE, I (unintentionally) put Yaldabaoth in a topple lock, and he stayed there for five minutes before I realized his hp wasn't going down. I was very clearly in a position where the boss couldn't do anything other than die, but the game says no, Egil has to beat you. He's not even very hard! I would much rather beat the boss and get my rewards and lose in the cutscene than be unable to beat a boss that I can take no problem because it's scripted that I lose. In fact, I can't think of a single difficult fight in XC1. I know Lorithia gave people trouble, but she's nowhere close to how difficult some of the fights in XC2 are. Akhos and Malos in chapter 3, the Phantasms, Malos and Jin. These are challenging fights, and I just can't think of anything that can compare in XC1 (it also doesn't help that if you're 5 levels above an enemy, it's pretty much an auto win and it's very easy to be overlevelled if you do a few sidequests).
@@conorb.1901 I don't think I have ever gone so long, but I have definitely toppled locked bosses for a while. Then, you have to wait for the topple to end, so you can lose. That is easily worse than losing in a cutscene. I agree that most of the fights in Xenoblade 1 are rather easy. Even most of the superbosses aren't hard. It is mostly just a question of do you have the gear to handle their gimmick. In regards to being overleveled, all three games have a problem with this. 1DE has the least problem with being overleveled because you can decrease your level on your first playthrough. I am currently doing a new playthrough of 2, and I wanted to make sure I didn't end up overleveled, and I find it very frustrating because I have to be so careful not to accidentally get too much xp doing side stuff (which is one of my favorite parts of these games). You can get like five levels from a single boss or unique monster sometimes.
@@falcondjd the great thing about XC2 is that any exp from sidequests and things goes straight into bonus exp. It doesn't actually increase your level until you decide to sleep at an inn and increase it yourself. I stayed pretty competently leveled my first playthrough, due mostly to overkills from chain attacks, ending the game at 70 the same level as the final boss. I just used bexp to keep everyone at an even level because I like it when everybody levels up at the same time. Yeah, DE definitely made the overlevelling issue less prevalent, and I personally really dislike the "5 levels above/below" system because an enemy can go from pretty much impossible to beat to a cakewalk from just a single level. Heck, a lot of the super bosses have extremely low agility becsuse the red tag buffs would make them untouchable without night vision gems (which they still require, but your accuracy would be very shaky if their agility was higher, just look at the only one with good agility, Despitic Arsene).
Xenoblade 2 haters and rex haters more so really do not understand story telling lmao. If rex was super strong from the start and never lost then where is the story and his character development? He would be like so many generic anime characters where they stay the same the whole story and are just super strong.
Is the first battle with Morag not a clear win fore Rex and his team? Morag pointed out that Rex avertd his aim. If Rex would have hit Morag with that attack she might have been done fore. Even if not she would have atleast being injured and with Brighid being all wett and her being injured she would have been screwed if Rex team decided to gang up on her. Rex holded back otherwise Morag would be dead.
I would consider the Tantal ambush to be a success since one of the party members (Morag) didnt even try to fight and saved her energy to outsmart them later. I'm also not sure the Malos fight near the end of chapter 7 is an actual win since I think Malos was just messing with them. I doubt Nia's attack actually did anything.
If anything my problem is that they don't lose enough. And the problem with the whole 'win in game lose in cutscene' thing is that the battle system really doesn't lend itself well to that. The most common way to do it that doesn't feel cheap is simply to not let the enemy go down to 0% HP, if the fight simply stops at say 30% instead then it's clear that the enemy shouldn't be dead/incapacitated. But the way the combat system works in 2 is that it wants you to "overkill" your enemies with chain attacks, this makes it so they cant just stop the fight at 30% since chain attacks need to be able to overkill so as to reward skilled play.
3 has an annoying few moments where you win a fight and then get wrecked in the cutscene. There’s a few fights were you don’t get to win, just do a fight, don’t let me win then take it away
I just hate the trope where you’re literally kicking the boss’ ass, then you get them to half hp, it fades to black, and the ensuing cutscene goes on to say how they’re “too strong”, etc. Not only does it completely take me out of it, it isn’t at all reflecting the fight i just had as a player. The fucking scorpion at the cliffs of morytha (around the same level) was more of a challenge than any of the following boss fights. I genuinely don’t care if the protagonist loses or not, I just hate scripted losses where there isn’t a convincing gameplay reason for the player to give up with the characters. I do not need a supplementary cutscene where the main character powers up, has a fight scene, and then makes the already easy fight easier.
The primary issue people had would be you would win a fight in the battle and then would lose a fight/losing a fight in the cutscene. First fight with Malos, Brighid and Morag are excellent examples of this. “But XC1 did the same thing where’s the complaints for that” 1. That’s not an argument, and 2. The game would literally stop you halfway through the healthbar for fights you weren’t supposed to win, Metal Face as a perfect example of this.
@@jackleveille9319 Then don’t set the overkill mechanic to be triggered or to be impossible to trigger in fights you are supposed to lose or aren’t going to win. It creates a dissonance with the gameplay and the story and makes the player feel less in control of the game then they should feel. Or set those fights to be won narratively and create new reasons why they have to run. Having you win the fight in cutscene and not in narrative messes with the players own agency in the story. Also with the major offenders, overkill is not introduced just yet.
@@jackleveille9319 Like the overkill mechanic is a good point, just if you are going to beat the boss in the game, the player is going to expect to beat them in cutscene, a cutscene where you are losing makes the player feel like they have less agency in an area where they should have more.
@@jackleveille9319 Again, then set certain instances where it can’t be triggered or, you can do the KH1 Leon route where you make a boss harder for beginners of the series that you are supposed to lose and have an alternate cutscene where it still ends the same but with a slightly different result. The point is having the player lose battles you won in gameplay is not the way to go.
I really liked that Rex lost in the early game, he had no experience at all as a driver, so winning against Mor Ardain and Tantal’s strongest drivers, Mor Ardain and Torna’s strongest blades, the other Aegis, and the head of a well known mercenary organisation would be unrealistic and just seem like plot armour
Okay but consider this, what if the first Morag fight was split into 2 phases. The first phase you get her down to half health and then the cutscene shows them struggling. Rex then has his water tower idea and makes a strategic retreat. Phase 2 then takes place in the field directly in front of the water tower. You remove the rest of Morag's HP and then the cutscene shows the party getting the upper hand by bringing the water tower down on her. You'd consider that a straight up win right? So I'd actually say the first fight with Morag could technically be counted as another win for the party.
I don’t mind the protagonists losing, it’s better than having them effortlessly win every fight like and isekai power fantasy. Besides, as some else commented, Jin is a war hero from Torna, while Malos is an aegis armed with a monado, so losing to them is understandable. I just dislike “win-to-lose” boss fights. There are few things more frustrating in games when you are required to win a boss fight, and put in the effort to win said boss fight, and succeed in beating it, only to be told you lost in a Cutscene. The cold steel games are especially bad about this.
I really love how Zeke’s elemental weakness is earth, and all three times that you fight hem the ensuing cutscene ends with him getting screwed over by the terrain
That is actually a great point
And actually I just realized that spoilers
When you fight illusions of your teammates, Zeke and Tora are “killed” by a landslide
@@gingerkays7362 that is horribly ironic and hilarious
...your right
Oh, and on top of everything else, he has the lowest LUCK stat of the entire team
It's almost like part of the story is that rex is a child and has to learn that even this power has limits and he needs to be a better smarter person to learn how to use it
to bad no one understands that people just hates rex because he`s ultimately not Shulk or because they think he`s dumb and annoying
@@smolggenguffenfugs7844 I be honest sometime about Rex isn’t as engaging as many other jrpgs protagonists, his goals are mostly static from start to finish . And he just lack a good narrative hook to make him as interesting as Jin malos or mythra
@@rexthewolf3149 and yet, I still like him as a protagonist more than I like Shulk.
Too bad the writers forgot to actually show him learning his limits; he just pulls a Goku and gets stronger.
@@ninjapotatolorf6237 what about Rex losing to Vandham? Or the fight at Olethro Ruins where he needs to be bailed out by Mythra because her charged in like an idiot? Or losing hard to Jin at Genbu Crown? It's very clear that in the beginning, Rex is a terrible driver who just so happens to have a really powerful blade, and later he's in over his head against opponents way out of his league. Saying Rex doesn't grow over the course of the story is objectively wrong when we have moments like these, and several others I haven't listed.
Rex is only 15 guys and not the giorno giovanna type of 15
The difference between Giorno and Rex is that Giorno had a long time to figure out how his Stand worked before he was thrust into the call for action meanwhile Rex doesn't have the time to stop and test his abilities with Pyra because he's constantly being chased by Torna and he doesn't know when another Titan will die.
@@jackleveille9319 Also Rex have not a Piano
@@WildspeakerYT he has counterrattack
@@fgvcosmic6752 counterattack fails a couple of times, is not as much powerfull than the piano
"I guess Malos just wasn't paying attention"
Malos: *Windows blue screen sound*
The funny thing is that could be something to happen to him
Logos.EXE has stopped working
I actually like that they are losing battles. I mean they should not be able to beat Jin or even Malos easily.
Malos even has the great line at the end of chapter 7 “Hah! Crush us? You couldn’t take Jin on your own! And on top of that, I’ve regained control of all my Aegis powers! You’re, doomed, boy.” And it’s a really good point. If Pneumas true form didn’t appear, the party definitely would’ve lost to full-power Jin and Malos.
It does make it feel a little more realistic. You can’t win all the time.
Honestly, Id be fine with them losing, but only if the cutscenes made it make sense
In the battles, you're destroying the enemy, and then suddenly the cutscene has you on the brink of defeat. The cutscenes should have BEGAN with you having the upper hand, or at least a false hope, before being swiftly defeated
In Xenoblade 1, when you fight an enemy you lose to in the story, the boss fight ends part way.
@Nhat Anh Hoang yeah, and I disagree with it in all contexts
Just because other RPGs do it doesnt mean its a good thing
Losing battles is part of Rex's character arc.
He can't help or save everyone. He's just a kid who was forced into a heroic position because of an interaction he could've just as easily avoided if he had taken different action.
Losing battles makes sense when you are a kid who is literally fighting god and a guy who moves at the speed of light.
Yes but rex also have the power of the god and he also knows how to fight
@@Avg_nightwalker the full power of pneuma was not unlocked and used until the cliffs of Morytha, and as was stated, *SPEED OF LIGHT*
Rex had so many huge dubs they formed a new Elysium
I'd consider adding a Pyrrhic Victory counter if you do this again, as it kind of feels wrong including obvious wins like Dughall with devastating events like Vandham and Fan La Norne.
I guess it's a... PYRAc victory?
Having characters lose battles is mandatory for their development. There is no feeling of accomplishment if you never had problems after all. In my opinion Rex's victory at the cliffs of morytha felt so good because he had to go through so much trouble. Especially compared to other fights like the one where mythra first appeared. Rex didn't know Mythra existed. It was not Rex's own doing that brought the victory.
But at the cliffs of Morytha it was him. He learned from his mistakes and was able to succeed.
Noone complains that he loses though, that's a strawman. People complained that he loses TOO MUCH. Which is a completely separate claim. If your protagonist always loses and never wins and at the end of the day saves the world by sheer luck because everytime he was about to lose, some asspull made him win anyway, that's not good character development.
Now I don't have an opinion on if that is the case with XB2, but that was the complaint. NOONE complained about him losing, just about the perceived notion that he loses way too often and if he wins, then usually by a deus-ex-machina that saves him from an assured loss. Which is a completely separate complaint from "He lost so i don't like him".
@@EskChan19 It was also the fact that you go into simple battles and beat the crap out of an enemy only to lose in the cut scene.
@@cardboardtubeknight ahh the good old "I win the fights but the cutscene says NEIN" happens in a lot of games. a tale old as time itself, one that i wish we did not have
For me, the main difference between xc1&2 is that xc1 is more story focused while xc2 is more character focused. So its understandable that xc2 feel like the characters lose more, because you need setbacks for character growth.
That is a major reason I prefer 2 over 1. I value characters and gameplay over story, and I like the cast and gameplay of XC2 more than I like the cast and gameplay of XC1. The stories are on point though, as they're both very good.
Idk know I found more character growth in 1.
Pyra doesn’t get any growth whatsoever.
Rex only grows in power and is also the same character.
The only real growth I’d give to zeke for having to mature when he finds the truth of his kingdoms origins
@@firenze6478 compared to literally everyone in XC1 who isn't Shulk or Melia. Pretty much every party member except those two is the same person they were when they joined up.
@@firenze6478 so we just going to ignore nia and tora?Im sorry but xeno 1 characters have no growth at all except for Shulk and Reyn.
@@firenze6478 What about Pyra's suicidal tendencies she inherited from Mythra, which she and Mythra gotten over together when Rex finally knows their true goal? Thus her wanting to continue up to Elysium with Rex afterwards, just so they can save the world and stop Malos.
Same with Rex, on how he didn't know their intentions at first, but still wants to help them get to Elysium after finding out. Helping both Pyra/Mythra and Nia, showing they don't have to hide or be in fear anymore. Him wanting to go and find the truth and roles for everyone, not just him and his friends, or saving Alrest. Even though he figured out the truth for why people have blades by their side, while climbing up the World Tree.
After watching the video, my theory as to why people say that Rex loses so much is because 3 of the 5 out right losses happen in the first three chapters of the game (with some likely considering the fight against Morag in chapter 2 as a loss as well). And I wouldn't be surprised if a decent number of people who make this complaint never got much further than chapter 4 at most.
It makes senses that Rex would be losing early game because he is new at being a driver. Doesn't matter how strong the weapon is if you don't know to properly use it.
@@stevediament1448 You expect people who use it as a reason to complain about Rex/the game as a whole to care about that?
Shulk also loses a lot in the beginning too, so it's a pretty hypocritical complaint. Of course they would lose if the enemy is ultra powerful and they don't understand what they're up against. I think people saying Rex loses every other battle is only looking for details that support why they don't like Rex while ignoring the bigger picture.
@@ShallBePurified idk if I'll ever get a reply to this but imma try. When did shulk lose and when did rex lose?
@@bryanjames5470 Shulk loses the first Metal Face and Xord fight. They retreated but not because of Shulk. With Metal Face, he gained nothing and lost Fiora, and with Xord, he didn't save Juju, so they both resulted in a loss. Also Shulk loses the second Metal Face fight too. They were saved by the Telethia, which was an unknown ally (well, Alvis was an ally, not the Telethia), so by Luxin's rule, it would count as a loss.
I legitimately forgot Poppi was in the scene where Nia and Mythra talk about the former being a flesh eater.
I forgot about that too, i was confused when luxin said that for a moment
I guess you could call the Akhos/Malos fight a Pyra-ic victory.
You bring up a good point, why do people consider the Akhos fight a loss when they were able to make him retreat?
Because people buy Akhos' theatre bullshit, ignoring that a character may lie to make themselves seem better
Mythra would’ve appeared sooner or later
Loss for Rex, win for the party I guess.
Basically, people have the feeling of lose a lot because they success a lot, but with a hell amount of collateral damage.
Nice video, I'm still amazed by the Rex effects on the puntuation table xD
Sounds like a superhero movie.
every anime in a nutshell Loses gives characters growth.
I think the idea that rex looses every other fight comes more from how he has more losses/deus-ex-machina perceived victories in the early game, and people made their opinion on the whole story based on just the first few chapters.
Sadly this is how people played the game, worse is that most people that have ridiculous comments comes from Xenoblade 1 that think Shulk is the 2nd coming of christ..
@@vivid8979 Honestly, replaying Xenoblade 1 after the definitive edition came out, I realized just how many issues it had that 2 fixed and I kept wishing it were more like 2. That's when I realized that 2 was my favorite. There's so many limitations on battle, characters that left in the background, and ridiculous plot points that some how people forgive, but they can't forgive Rex's screams (which get better as he gets used to the character) or the fact that a character has big boobs. Because to me, it has the better story, the better wrap of both 1 and 2, the better characters and the btter combat.
@@sj4iy did the same thing yesterday and yeah, have to agree with you completely on this. It's astounishing how some people ignore the game blatant problems, for instances, inconsistency in characters' personalities. Imo, xc1 was a good, flawed game that become the stepping stones for the franchise to improve itself upon, not the "perfect flawless masterpiece" some of the fans made it sound like. Xc2 to me has more depth to its combat, better villains, a more balanced party and overall a more intrigued story. It even elevate zanza from being simply the "insert your world conquering machine here" he was in the first game. Xc2 pacing was jarring at times though. Chapter 5 was more or less walking simulation :))
(Slight spoiler)
Does Brighid's b!tchslap on Tantal count as a lost battle?
No, making Poppi sad was.
@@gintokisakata514 oof.
Loss makes this game so memorable to me. In my first playthrough, Pyra/Mythra is so powerful so I basically just use them to win every fight until Jin in Tantal. When Jin said Rex did not even notice that Pyra/Mythra has so many wounds on her, it shook me to my very core. And then the next chapter I did not have any great blade to use with Pyra/Mythra gone, suddenly I just realized how important she is and how much I’ve taken her for granted. I think the devs wanted me to lean on Pyra/Mythra so much, so this loss would be more heart felt. It worked and it’s simply masterful.
What I especially like about chapter 7 is that Pyra and Mythra missing is an active detriment to the party. Fire combos are extremely useful (especially since they stack on themselves), and Rex only has one topple art; anchor shot. Not only do you lose a very powerful blade that you've relied on up to this point, but you also lost a very reliable topple art. Great way to integrate gameplay and story.
I've never been bothered by Rex losing some fights in XB2. It's not like Trails of Cold Steel (especially ToCS2) where your party is always beaten down (even if you slaughtered the ennemies in the fight) and end up being rescued by someone else. Or having the ennemies do the 'I wasn't even at full power' trick...
*SPOILERS FOR XENOBLADE 1*
Party's losses:
Metal Face at Colony 9
The 3 Monado Art fights
Metal Face outside Ether Mine
Jade Face at Mechonis Field
Gold Face at Galahad Fortress
Yaldabaoth at Agniratha
Zanza at Mechonis Core
Dickson's Telethia aboard Junks
Let me know if I missed any or included ones that shouldn't count.
Edit:
Xord at Bionis Leg
Telethia Horde at Colony 6
Telethia when Dickson betrays them, they haa as be to get bailed out by melias older brother
@@firenze6478 That's what Telethia aboard Junks was.
@@codename618 I don’t see him on your list though
@@firenze6478 "Dickson's Telethia aboard Junks"
It's literally the last one I listed.
Would the fight in Galahad Fortress against just Face Nemesis count?
I LOVE the sound effects of rex between points Lmao!! This video is very entertaining. Thanks Luxin for the xeno content!
Well it makes sense Rex loses a lot thorough the story. Dude's 15 and works as a salvager in a dying world just to make a living while sending money to his family in Leftheria, he wants to find a way up to Elysium and makr an impactful change thanks to his kind-hearted spirit and once he finds himself as the driver of the Aegis and finds her goal is to also get to Elysium he's more motivated than ever to achieve that goal, which of course drives him to act recklessly out of good nature and he's still pretty much a newbie as a driver who just happens to have one of the most powerful blades in history so it makes sense he loses against baddies like Jin and Malos and then once he gets his sht together after the events at Tantal and finally understands Pyra/Mythra he starts to grow as both a person and driver which leads to the dúo winning more
I'm convinced the Ahkos fight in Garfont is comprised of two different versions of the same scene. My reasoning for this is that Vandham is right there when the fight starts and is personally motivated to avenge his fallen allies, but then after the gameplay he comes in all nonchalant like he only just got involved. He literally says he "can't leave kids alone for a second" even though you can have him fight Ahkos with everyone else. Where was he before then? Where is everyone else while Pyra is getting beat up?
My theory is that the cutscene before the fight is a version where Ahkos rolls up and takes on everyone, and the cutscene after is from a version where he instead gets Rex and Pyra alone to pick them off easier, and at some point these two scenes got spliced together despite not fitting together perfectly.
I feel the same, I wasn’t sure why the cutscene felt off other than Vandham kinda disappearing and then appearing at the second part of the cutscene but I think you’re probably right with your theory
Did you know, commenting helps out Luxin, just like hitting the like button? From the top of my head, think they only lose to Jin sort of and Brighid that one time.
Xenoblade fans complain about MC getting his ass handled to him a couple of times by some of the top fighters in the verse. Meanwhile in Trails MC needs to be bailed out of fight with a dozen of mooks each chapter, and he's still treated as one of the best fighters around. What a strange contrast.
You've done a pretty good job here at disproving the specific complaint regarding "win in the game lose in the cutscene." However, there is definitely still something going on here to cause such a major disconnect for so many people, even if the complaint most often raised doesn't exactly match up to how the scenarios unfold.
Perhaps a slightly better way to word the complaint would be "the cutscene stole my win." The biggest examples are definitely fighting/escaping from Morag and the first Akhos fight. Sure, the gang do ultimately escape Morag and scare of Akhos, matching a reasonably expectable result from defeating their boss fights, but the events that occur between the gameplay ending and those scenes conclusions can majorly contrast against a player's experience. I imagine most people who care about this stuff will have seen all the specific complaints around these scenarios before, so I'll keep it rather short and say that the difficulties Rex experiences in both cutscenes are not properly represented in the boss fights. This can create a major rift between what the player has just experienced, winning the fight, and what the player sees immediately afterwards, Rex struggling.
In some respects, the fact that the gang DO end up with at least modest success by scenes' end may actually further exasperate these feelings. It implies that the group's escape/victory was never within the player's agency, the boss fights were merely formalities. Technically this is true, given that the game only has one narrative path, but these moments of contrast can really pull back the curtain in a way that was clearly detrimental to the enjoyment of many. When first playing the game I definitely had a reaction after the Morag battle of "Whyyyyy is this scene still going? I... won the fight, that should really be it." and while it didn't substantially sour my experience overall (I still really did have a lot of fun with the game and enjoyed the overall narrative) I can definitely understand it being a dealbreaker for many.
This is exactly what happened to me. I beat the boss and expect the cutscene that follows to imply that my win will directly translate into the cutscene in a short span of time, but it often takes a few minutes for your win to actually become a win so the whole things feels kinda trivial. You pretty much put my thoughts into words
I think another gameplay disconnect is when a boss fight is easy for a player, it’s not just a matter of the cutscenes not reflecting the gameplay outcome of the fight. It’s also that the cutscenes juxtapose the feelings players might have during the fight.
Theoretically at any point in a JRPG, you could grind to max level, to the point where you’re stronger than you would’ve been when you actually do beat your early game rival in the story.
In some ways, JRPGs that do have cutscenes that vastly vary from your experience are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They’re giving you the tools and mechanics to win fights, but still want to tell a narrative that assumes you struggle.
@@samkeiser9776 I think this element is also what makes the losses Shulk faces feel more valid. When you lose fights to Metal Face or Xord, those scenes happen after battles that are essentially impossible for you to actually win on a first playthrough, and indeed you are not expected to win any of those fights before the cutscene jumps in. Instead of creating a sense of "Wait, I just beat this person, why is my character getting their butt kicked now?" it creates a sense of "Geeze, this opponent is really powerful, its pretty clear I can't beat this guy yet!"
If you ask me? Fight scenes are badass and the choreography in cutscenes tends to be way better and more dynamic than what you can do in gameplay.
This feels like a take from immersion people crying again and I hate it. I just cannot be bothered to care about whether my gameplay translates over to the cutscene because then they'd have to make every single story related battle have various potential ways it can play out after them based on how you did and no developer has the fucking time, energy or resources to do stupid, pointless shit like that. It just doesn't actually matter lmao
Dude just finish watching Chuggas latest episode of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 I hope this doesn't have as many feels then again we are talking about losing battles Ill still watch though.😭😢
its funny how rex and co has 31 wins and the least losses yet they'll still try to say somehow that addam was better when addam was a failure driver for mythra and didn't accept her and failed because he feared her power instead of mastering it, rushing to fight malos like an idiot. glad to see rex getting some love for a change.
It's nice that you're commending Rex, but you don't have to insult my boy Addam like that, he tried his best as her driver/father figure
Umm u do know that addam wasn't mythra true driver right? Rex was always the true driver it was never addam and he didn't rush in to fight malos they had no choice but to fight and win which they succeed but malos was to strong so he didn't die
Maybe it's just me but I enjoyed the story and all the "losses" people are complaining about and never stuck out to me as a negative. A lot of stories are just like XC2. 🤷♂️
In my four decades on this earth I've found people tend to remember or focus on the negatives (loss) to the point they are exaggerated so much they begin to out weigh the positives (win) even if more positives happened than negatives. People tend to lose sight of positives when they get aggravated.
This is called negativity bias and is a well established feature of life in general, because it draws attention to sources of problems. So now you know. :)
@@MrTTnTT or its called whiney babies. Now you know.
I think the way people see it is that many of the loses are at the start and many of the wins are against minor monsters that many people forget about soon after the big fights against main characters where a lot of the losses are against.
If people can see Rex and say he "loses too many fights", I wonder how so many people can also be so upset about some characters "always winning".
I was fine with him losing the fights because just think about it story-wise
Rex has very little experience actually fighting sure he's fought bugs and shit before while savaging but he has never fought other humans and when he becomes a driver he is fighting some of the most powerful drivers in the world. Would it make sense for Rex who has been a driver for like 2 days to beat Morag who has been a driver for years and is considered one of the most powerful driver in the Empire? Would it also make sense for Rex to beat Malos on the ship WHEN HE JUST CAME BACK TO LIFE AND DOESN'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO FIGHT
Malos wasn't at full power and rex literally became the driver of the aegis aka nothing less than god
I understand what you're getting at but I feel like the reason people complain about Rex losing isn't that he actually does but that Rex himself feels weak in comparison to his enemies for most of the game. Take the example of his clear victory against Mikhail and Petroka. It's undercut both by Morag joining and Petroka implying she could still fight after. Shulk feels a lot stronger the whole way through. Every time Shulk almost loses and is bailed out by a Monado art it makes Shulk feel stronger but when Rex gets battered around by Akhos only for the party to deal with him it makes Rex feel weaker.
So let's see
First Malos fight, they reduce the HP to 0 and escape.
In the King/Brighid fight, they reduce the HP to 0 and escape with friends getting captured,
In the Morag fight, they reduce their HP to 0, and escape,
In the Vandham fight, Vandham lays off and decides to get them some grub.
With Akhos, they force a retreat.
With Malos and Akhos, they force a retreat..
Morag, they persuade an alliance.
Jin in Temperantia, he runs out of stamina.
Jin in Tantal, they lose in both gameplay and cutscene as his Health is never brought to 0.
Malos, Nia weaponizes cancer and they win.
Jalos, the fight is interrupted with Malos getting pissed off at the fact they're losing.
Jin in World Tree, they persuade an alliance.
Amalthus, they don't land the final blow, but they still gave him "an incredible thrashing."
Why do people say they win in gameplay, lose in story, exactly?
Best summary of this counterargument I've seen yet.
Really interesting to see this boiled down like this
When/if you do the XC1 one, I think it's definitely going to have more losses, not just because of Monado arts, but I'm pretty sure there's a fair few fights where you deal *some* damage, but don't kill the enemy (like MF in Chapter 2), which would count as losses I think since the boss doesn't lose.
The only real question of a XC1 one would be if FC counts, since unlike Torna, you have a majority of the party being party members from the base game. Although, I think the only loss that'd tack on would be the Alcamoth fight sorta in the middle of the story, when the fog king first shows up.
Riding the Chuggaaconroy hype (and his video where he specifically mentioned you [in a tweet]) you should go over the points for/against the lose/keep their memories for the ending.
Luxin destroys Dunkey fans in 7 minutes
that would imply they would grasp the concept of a good argument
It’s not that simple dunkey doesn’t like jrpgs so every time he “reviews” part of his negative bias get in the way. My biggest question is why does he keep playing them
@@rexthewolf3149 He said that he plays them to try and find a JRPG he likes, such as Persona 5, which I genuinely believe to be fair.
@@rexthewolf3149 To be honest people care too much about 1 person's opinion. It's crazy how fans can turn into like a cult that worship his words to be powerful.. Wether he dislikes it or not means nothing IMO he's just another dude playing a video game in my eyes.
I’m a dunkey fan but I don’t really care much about his whole JRPG thing because they do have some pretty silly stuff out of context that I don’t mind making fun of sometimes. And Dunkey’s made it pretty clear that these are based on his own personal opinions so he’s not trying to act like the arbiter of quality or anything.
You forgot the 50 times you lose to the morag memory
I'd like to see more videos like this, where you take criticism about Xenoblade 2 and analyze it and see if they have a point. Maybe you could do the topic of people wanting Zeke to be the main character over Rex
The criticism was just there terrible voice acting especially rex and Nia and sometimes tora and the annoying protagonist rex his character development isn't great cringe describe him and mostly whinny that's it overall the game is awesome and rex improve at the end
Rex: Oh no! Talk no jitsu failed!
Shonen Protag: First time?
Rex may lose a lot in 2, but he got the ultimate win in 3(I won’t say for spoiler reasons)
He showed us ALL a thing or three!
Having the battles end part way into them would be better story-wise, since alot of the fights are wins not from defeating the enemy, but achieving a goal - which often doesn't include defeating the enemy.
The problem is how to balance it gameplay-wise, in xc1 there’s a dozen fights you don’t get exp from because they end early. It’s even more of an issue for xc2, because you can’t get chain overkill exp if the fight ends too early. I’d be fine with fights ending early if they give exp and if the next game doesn’t have something like overkills, otherwise I’m not too sure about the best way to balance it
I think the reason people complain about the "win in the fight, lose in the cutscene" thing (besides memes from the dunkey video) is that, for some puzzling reason, Monolith got it right in the first game and then proceeded to do a poorer job in the second (technically third if you count X). In the same situations where you'd win the fight and lose in the cutscene in 1, usually you don't actually get to fully deplete the boss' health bar. Examples are Metal Face in Colony 9, Xord's first two fights and further spoilery fights beyond. Hopeless situations in 1 are actually hopeless ingame and not just in the cutscene afterwards, which makes it a bit jarring they didn't opt to do the same in 2.
It's because in Xenoblade 2, they want you to overkill bosses with Chain Attacks so you can get bonus experience for it. If they did the same thing they did in 1, then it would be detrimental to that gameplay element. Not to mention that from what I've heard around half of the bosses in 1 end the fight early and dont guve the player experience. Meaning that the player is going to be under powered unless they grind.
@@jackleveille9319 That is a good point. Although, I don't think I've ever been in need of extra experience from story bosses in either game, so it wouldn't really be a big deal, but it might have been contradictory and frustrating to players who'd be expecting to overkill every boss.
I'd argue that XC1's issue of not actually letting you beat the boss is still detrimental, even more so than win the flight/lose the cutscene in XC2 (which I don't think is a big issue in the slightest). In XC1, the level curve is completely out of whack. You either do sidequests, and you don't even need to do very many, and now you're completely overlevelled and crush everything in the game which makes the forced losses in the story even more noticeable, or you only do main quests and end up severely underlevelled because most bosses don't give exp since the fight ends early, and it's nearly impossible to fight anything 5 or more levels above you. Expert mode kinda helps the overlevelled from sidequests issue, but it actually makes it very difficult to level up without dipping into you bonus exp reserve since enemies give laughably low amounts of experience.
I can tell you had a fun time editing this.
Not only do you not lose a lot, for the Chapter 7 Jin fight, you even don't win in the fight! You knock his HP down a tiny bit and then the fight ends! This complaint is so stupid
Sometimes, people need to realise that gameplay should not be taken as consideration of how the story progress.
Telling a story that conflicts with gameplay context is something that is a rejection of the strengths of games as a medium.
Xenoblade Chronicles 1 showed the main characters lose battles by showing the enemies as being practically undefeatable in gameplay.
@@CJojo_13_ on the flip side, Xenoblade 1 also has bosses that I'm very capable of beating but the fight ends early because they're supposed to be super powerful. It goes both ways.
@@conorb.1901 it does, and I'm not excusing it in the first game, but its a much more pronounced issue in 2.
@@CJojo_13_ maybe it's just me and how I play, but I'd rather win the boss fight and lose in the cutscene than be perfectly capable of beating a boss, but it's scripted to end before I do meaning I get no rewards. If I'm to have a forced loss, I'd rather have the enemy way outclass me so I can't help but lose.
@@conorb.1901 I guess this is just going to come down to a difference in preference (which I respect), but I personally prefer for my games to have gameplay and story be in harmony, or at least not conflict with each other.
This is a small part of why Disco Elysium is one of my favorite role playing games in recent memory.
Really what annoys me more is the double bosses. Rose then Mik and Petroka soon after. The arachno followed shortly by Akhos, and the chairman followed by the second Morag fight. It wouldn't be so bad if they were just second phases, it just specifically how you beat one boss, go down a short hallway, and then fight another boss.
Realistically he should losing a lot considering what he goes up against
This was interesting to go through. Not sure how popular this video would be but I'd love to see the Xenoblade 1 one for comparison.
Personally I think the issue isn't really about Rex & Co. "losing too many fights and/or getting bailed out by deus ex machina nonsense" so much as *"the game has an issue of making the cutscene trigger for most of the story fights where the party aren't supposed to win require players to reduce said bosses' HP to 0, causing ludonarrative dissonance"*
I also think Xenoblade 2 should've been given more development time & staff, launching no sooner than early March 2018 (Switch Anniversary scheme) instead of a mere two weeks after Super Mario Odyssey, so what would I know?
the problem with that is..
XC1 had a notorios problem that you either did all sidequests ,and where overleveld as fuck, or mostly did main quests, and where underleveled as fuck because half the bosses dont give you EXP because the fight ends at 50% health.
It just made the already butched leveling curve in XC1 worse
XC2, solved that better, not only did you gain more EXP with overkill, you also gained EXP(and possible overkill XP) from every Major boss in the game. making a mostly mainquest platrough doable without much grind(infact, thats what i did, i mostly did main quests, and i was SLIGHTLY underleved at the end, did the same in XC1, and i ended up having to spend 3 hours leveling up for Dickson)
@@weberman173 Yeah, the whole idea of ending a fight early would've been detrimental to the gameplay element of overkilling a boss to get more experience.
People keep talking about the fights he loses, but fail to realize that this 15 year old kid is quite literally beating the shit out of creatures and drivers left and right, and loses only to:
- An (mildly broken, later fixed) aegis.
- The best driver in mor Ardaign, and the national treasure blade(which he later matches in skill).
- The best Driver (and father figure) in Uraya. Which is less a loss and more a lesson.
- A bullshit blade that stops the flow of ether. So Bs it had to be killed off.
- The literal incarnation of the "Nothing personal kid" meme in blade form. And he beat him later on.
Considering i was always underlevel, all the losses felt right
Counterargument to the Malos/Ahkos fight: Rex didn't know about Mythra and the team was going to get completely wiped out if she didn't show up. By your own criteria, this should count as a loss, or at the very least a success, given that they did what they were trying to do, but at a heavy cost. Or can we make a new category for pyrrhic victories?
was thinking the exact same thing myself
By his criteria, it’s either if the party is hinted at their new power, or the enemy knew about it, it’s not a lost. In this case, Malos knew about Mythra beforehand
Malos already knew about Mythra so by his criteria Malos/Akhos counts as a win.
Funny, I don't like a lot of the logic used in this, but I agree with the outcome. Rex himself might lose a few fights when you only focus on him, but as a party they don't actually lose a lot and there really isn't a lot of Deus Ex Machina protecting them when they do lose. Not that it never happens, it just isn't frequent.
However, the one thing I do want to argue is regarding characters that, in cutscenes, are part of the party, helping out with stuff, but aren't playable. You were rather hesitant to include Haze's help during the Jin fight or Jin's fight during the Amalthus fight. According to the cutscenes, they are there helping the entire time even though you can't play as them. Haze doesn't come out of nowhere to stop Jin before he can deal the killing blow, she's there supporting the party before he even appears, helping weaken him the entire fight. She's not playable, but she is a part of the party. Same with Jin in the Amalthus fight. He is shown to be there the entire time, I mean you just fought him moments before. Yes, he is severely injured, but he is helping as best he can. Just because you can't control him, doesn't mean he isn't on your side. Them helping win their respective fights is no different than when a playable character helps with a fight in a cutscene at a time when they aren't playable. The only real instance of this I can think of is Zeke during the fight against the knights, where he isn't playable, then the fight with a group of knights is about to start in a cutscene and he comes in and defeats them all at once. He is not a playable character in the party when that happens, only rejoining the party after that fight. But similar situations would be Mythra's appearance in the fight where Vandham dies (which has the added support of Pyra having theoretically been able to awaken her at any point) or Nia having her Blade form.
Overall, an enjoyable video. Nice to see someone defend the game in this kind of argument
Luxin: "But can it still be a win if a major character dies?"
Me: Clearly, you've never heard the term "pyrrhic victory" before
I think the complaint is more so how in XC1 battles you can't win the enemy's health won't go to zero, but in XC2 that rarely happens instead, even if you take down an enemy they'll be fine in the cutscene.
(Although my knowledge is a bit rusty so forgive me if I'm wrong)
I'd personally rather have the enemy's hp drop to zero. I get my exp, gold, and other rewards. Because XC1 ends a lot of boss fights before the reach zero, I get no rewards, so what was the point of the boss fight? If you're going to only let me fight Yaldabaoth until he's at half hp (and he's not very hard, it's easy to get him to that threshold), why not just let me fight him until one of us hits zero hp? I (unintentionally) had him toppled for a good few minutes, I was in a position where I was guaranteed a win, but the game said "no, you can't beat this boss because story." I'd much rather fight the freaking boss than have the game skimp out on a boss fight by preventing me from killing the boss. If you want me to lose a fight, then pit me against an opponent that I stand no chance against. Make me do very little damage and lose a good chunk of hp for getting hit. I would rather take the loss from an enemy that clearly outclasses me than a scripted loss where it is within my capabilities to defeat the boss.
@@conorb.1901 Long rant but I get it
@@heehomgee4671 my bad, I like to keep my thoughts on a given subject in one paragraph even if it makes it less than coherent. I find it's better to separate separate subjects otherwise I'd go on a huge tangent and wind up on a subject that's completely different than what we started on. Happens in most conversations I'm in (and I'm usually the one who caused the tangent in the first place lol)
Great analysis! Keep up the great work, friend!
Gotta be honest: the fact that Vandham’s death and Haze’s death doesn’t immediately count as a loss feels wrong, mainly because that was essentially a loss for Rex, even if they end up forcing their opponents to retreat. I’d also consider Amalthus at least not as a win because Akhos, Patroka and Jin die (which Rex would consider a loss), as well as some dialogue suggesting that it’s essentially a stalemate for them, as they’re doing fine, but so’s Amalthus, so you could easily argue that Amalthus attempting to bring down the World Tree is because neither side is winning.
Also, just generally, a lot of the “win in the fight, lose in the cutscene” could be made completely correct if you just change it to “win in the fight, losing in the cutscene”, as they usually begin the cutscene at a disadvantage
But they won, they're just sad boys now
I mean there is literally an actual term for these types of wins. These are Pyrrhic Victories, wins that are so devastating to the victors that they feel like losses even if the ultimate aim of the battle is won.
A bit late but I'll day I think why it feels like Rex loses all the time because the gameplay really doesn't match and that makes people grumpy. Like I remember my first Grand Rosa fight, I was so strong I could literally have put the controller down and not even lose 20% of my health before winning.
So when the next cutscene stressed how hard the fight was and how we needed new Poppi to save us, I was more mad than anything else. Logically we won the fight, but emotionally I felt like I just got kicked in the shin.
I feel like the criticism of Rex losing too much is just a poorly worded criticism. Maybe "Rex is too weak" is a better criticism. Both Rex and Pyra get wrecked way too often. Sure they get up and win but it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in your protagonists. Can't help but feel something along the lines of "do I actually want these losers to win?"
Even when Shulk loses, it doesn't feel like he loses because he's weak. Sure he eats dirt plenty of time but I expect a giant Mechon being able to do that. One of my favorite scenes in Xenosaga is Episode I where KOS-MOS bursts through the wall and saves Shion. The Aegis is hyped up to be as big of a deal as KOS-MOS and gets bodied a lot. It creates a disconnect with the story. Pyra's gameplay is not even impressive until mid to late game. At least Mythra actually feels like she's the real deal.
I would love to see that XC1 video. Always down for your content and XC content in general
I played through Xenoblade 2 for the first time last month, and I'm playing through 3 right now, and whenever a battle ends early, or I finish a battle and the opponent is either unharmed, or winning in the cutscene, I refer to as a "Xenoblade 2 event"
its not about losing. its about getting back up and seeing things through.
Having your hero lose some fights they're not ready for, or need to be bailed out of fights they're not ready for, or suffer consequences for getting into fights they're not ready for, are all part of what makes characters memorable. If your hero never loses or suffers major consequences for biting off more than they can chew too soon, even if they win that fight, where's the tension? You'd end up with a flat character who never progresses or develops.
Unfortunately I have to wait one day to watch it since Chuggaaconroy’s LP of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 probably ends tomorrow.
The LP isn't going to end. It's just the story that will end,
@@aneonfoxtribute I know only story. We got all of the other quest, all of the blade quest plus maxing out all of their affinity charts, challenge mode, all of the dlc and new game plus blades, and all of the Torna DLC.
@@Magic_Ice yeah, XC2 has a ton of content. I've got over 600 hours in it (and Torna), and I don't think I've done everything yet, and even if I do, I'm probably not going to stop playing it.
Also like of course you're gonna win in the game play fight
The point isn't about the percentage but the raw amount of fights that make you feel bad AFTER fighting a hard battle to win it.
Your reward for beating the boss and kicking the crap out of their hp bars is being told "lol no... You suck."
This is where: "supposed to lose" fights feel better in other JRPGs, because at least the gameplay reflects the story.
In the Morag fight near the start of the game they could've made you attack the water tower instead and have Morag be a hazard or something if they wanted to have an 'alternate win condition' over beating the boss.
There is gameplay Vs narrative dissonance that just feels very very disappointing
How would the manado arts count as a loss but unlocking mythra isn't, shulk activity knows the manado has more arts, the mecon also know it has more arts and you say if it's clear to the player that also counts to purge also is justified
Maybe its because Shulk had no control when the arts are unlocked, while Mythra had full control of when she wanted to be awakened.
@@jackleveille9319 but rex didn't have control of that and shulk was trying
He said it doesn't count if the player is he only one who knows.
I think that the issue people have with "Win in the fight but loose in the cut scene" is that they see the boss's HP go to zero thus the boss should be dead. They become frustrated when the character is still alive and gets away, thus they interpret it as a loss. They are unable to separate gameplay from story.
They shouldn’t have to separate gameplay from story. since you could just have the boss is health go down to a certain point then cut to the cut scene I know FF7R does that and I think even xc1 does that.
More or less I hope that monolith can have Seamless game play to cut scenes transitions as it would avoid this problem completely
@@rexthewolf3149 That wouldn't work with how the game wants the players to overkill the bosses with chain attacks.
@@jackleveille9319 we don’t really need that mechanic in future titles.
@@rexthewolf3149 Let's focus on this game for right now.
to be fair, if you count those saves as loses(which some people do), you lose 1/4th the time which is alot for an rpg
In other words, wait a minute or two to see the conclusion before you assume anything. Not every single blow is the decisive blow.
Eeeh, I’d argue that any fight where somebody the party wants to keep alive dies is a loss, and I can see the argument that Rex getting his ass kicked and needing to be bailed out by his badass mentor figure - playable or not - is his loss too even if it’s the party’s win. Similarly, against Amalthus the party *fails* to save Akhos and Patroka, and then *fails* to save Jin too because he has to blow himself up to finish Amalthus off. For a fight they explicitly go into with the hope of showing Jin Rex’s answer and giving him a chance to live and move on, I can’t call that a success at attaining their goal. Still, that’s only a couple of points, and frankly I think Rex losing a lot is *good* for the story arc.
~~also, the final battle is clearly a moral defeat, because Rex’s goal is to save Malos but he has to kill him instead. :p~~
I got cancer trying to understand how losing fights and evolving characters ruins a story.
After watching this video I realized how much early game plot I forgot and I beat the game like 2 months ago
Before watching the video: XC2 puts the player in a position where they are forced to win battles to progress the game, however it is also content to have the player lose or retreat after the fight in the following cutscene - therefore souring the player on the experience. You have a series of half-wins and bitter hurrahs going through the story, so that you really don't look forward to your next encounter with the bad guys. The game is raining on your parade.
When you beat a challenge in a game, you expect satisfying feedback. If you put a lot of effort into something and the feedback is underwhelming, you are going to feel dissatisfied. Winning or losing is both an outcome and a mindset. A soured victory can be just as much a loss if not more (and vice versa). Given how XC2 has a tendency for souring your victories, you may end up feeling like they aren't accomplishing anything. And I wouldn't be surprised if some players just stopped playing after a while of feeling like this.
After watching the video: This is a great video!! Your reasoning and focus on overall goals are solid and paints a much better picture than how it may be perceived by the player. Good stuff! Having said that, it does ignore the perception of the player, which is more focused on the now than in the grand scheme of things. Also, you do refer to Rex and the party interchangeably, despite the title specifically referring to Rex. This is misleading.
I would like to offer this alternative perspective in respect to the player experience and Rex in the cutscenes after beating the bosses (only where I disagree with you):
1. Rex fails to beat Morag and must retreat. It feels like a loss.
2. Rex fails to beat Akhos and Vandham saves you. The method is rather poorly explained, and Pyra is left weakened. So it feels like a loss.
3. Rex fails to beat Akhos and Malos, and Vandham tries to save you. The method is rather confusing and ultimately fruitless, with Vandham dying as a result and Mythra has to be introduced to give Rex a power-up to win. Rex is left a sobbing mess. This feels like a major loss.
4. Rex fails to beat Mikhail and Patroka, and Morag has to step in for support so Mythra can employ a space laser. Mikhail and Patroka only retreats because Fan la Norne suddenly comes in. So you did not win, and since you couldn't succeed on your own, it ultimately feels like a loss.
5. Rex fails to beat Jin who is so mighty that even Fan la Norne cannot suppress his powers (her very specific power that forced Mikhail and Patroka to retreat), and he just rushes right up to her and kills her in front of everyone. Jin only retreats because he wastes his stamina on talking, would've won if he handn't. This is clearly a loss.
6-7. Rex does beat technically Akhos, Mikhail, and Patroka initially, but... Jin is also here so the fight is technically not over. Suddenly Rex and crew gets absolutely demolished and humiliated, with the trip joining in on the fun, and Rex loses Pyra on top of it all, who just barely convinces Jin not to kill you. It's a doubles-loss as far as we're concerned, since it is all in the same encounter. Almost a triple loss with how much salt is getting rubbed into Rex's wounds.
8. Rex fails to beat the phantasms, and Nia has to stop being a moron and use her actual powers (I understand her story, but Rex has already lost at this point). While Nia's transformation only seems to turn a probably loss into a probably win, Rex does friendzone Nia at the same time. And that just breaks my heart and feels like a massive L.
9. Rex fails to beat Malos, and Nia pulls out some magical cancer-inducing powers to temporarily subdue him, with heavy emphasis on the "temporarily". You could call it a win, but he's back on his feet in a few seconds like nothing happened and unharmed. This ultimately feels like a loss as a result, because...
10. Rex fails to beat Malos and Jin, and Pneuma suddenly appears to give Rex super speed power-up. Even with this new advantage, Rex passes up an actual victory for a draw with Jin, and Malos breaks the whole arena they are on, sending Rex and crew tumbling down. This technically makes Malos the victor, so this is a loss for us.
So that would total 15 losses out of 41, x3 as many losses. This is a matter of perspective, and you cannot fault people for how they feel. Again, winning and losing are both a matter of outcome and mindset.
"'Rex fails to beat Morag."
Morag did point out that Rex averted his aim. If Rex had hit Morag with that last attack she atleast would have been injured. With Brighid being wett and Morag being injured the team could have taken her out by ganging up on her.
So Rex choose to flee instead of going fore the kill. Otherwise Morag would have died.
I see that as a clear win for Rex and his team.
@@sofaris576 I don't consider retreat a win condition under any circumstance. Especially when I have to "win" a fight to earn the freedom of running with my tail between my legs.
But you are absolutely correct and this is a valid interpretation of events. Since running away was the original goal, and they succeeded, then that is a clear, undisputed win for Team Rex.
I don't mind a protagonist losing battles, but I do dislike the dissonance when you won against a boss then the following cutscene shows that you lost anyway.
If we are suppose to lose that fight, make it an impossible fight for the player to beat.
I think the perception largely just comes down to gameplay limitations. Narrative objectives such as "escape", "force enemy into position" and the like kinda all get muddied down to gameplay objectives of "reduce health bar to 0", which makes it feel like the game is discounting your victory because the victory you did get in gameplay was of a far greater magnitude than that which the cutscene shows.
Although I will say that I think it is somewhat fair to feel a bit sour about gameplay leading into a cutscene where the characters are getting stomped down, only to eventually come out on top, because many feel that reducing a healthbar to 0 should be the end to the actual fight, which is why a lot of games will follow this up with either immediate death or a cutscene that is more or less a onesided beatdown delivered by the player/party (after all, if the game is well designed, an actual struggle that goes back and forth should have already been delivered in the gameplay). A better approach used by some games, including Xenoblade 2 at points, is to instead just play cutscenes depicting the party struggling at health benchmarks other than 0 (not to say this approach is without issues itself, I found it to disorient me during quite a lot of fights, and if the gameplay is just an absolute beatdown from your hands getting cut short by you getting your ass kicked when the opponent has 50% health left, that's also a bit annoying... or the Dickson fight that was just me stomping on him until they showed a cutscene of Shulk being all like "oh no, he's too powerful" so the party could go, "don't worry, we have the power of friendship").
As for win/loss criteria, I think that how the game frames the situation and what the party makes clear they think of it is also to be considered. For instance, the party does not consider the Malos/Akhos fight to be a victory at all, even if the criteria used here do. It is somewhat akin to marking down Colony 9 as a victory because the Mechon were eventually forced to retreat.
@Hkg 1 Overkill EXP is a fair point.
The losses show as how they grew stronger
I was just fascinated you how this video was 18 minutes long for one question
I can think of at least 4 fights in xenoblade 1 not including the ones where he unlocks manado arts where the party losses
Yeah but those are actually fights where the gameplay and story are connected to where the boss can’t actually be defeated in normal gameplay, and while Rex doesn’t lose as much as everyone says there are still fights where the gameplay lets the player win but the story results in a loss
@@falconstriker87 The only difference between the Xenoblade 1 fights and the Xenoblade 2 fights are that the Xenoblade 1 fights end before the health bar gets to zero, while the 2 fights end with a health bar of zero. You still feel like you are beating the boss handedly in many of those fights in both games. Having the fights end before the health reaches zero also has some issues that break immersion as well. Like when you fight Metal Face for the first time, I have several times done chain attacks that end up doing zero damage on him because I had reached the end of the fight threshold.
A lot of the fights you lose in 1 aren't even hard fights, so it can feel really weird where you are supposed to have a really difficult fight, but it turns out to be really easy. Compare this to the Jin and Malos or Akhos and Malos fights. Before the cut-scene power-ups, you have some really hard fights that are a real struggle to get through. You barely survive the fight and then in the cutscene, you character is barely surviving. With the fight with Addam's shadow, you probably spend a bunch of time fighting as more continuously spawn that first time you do the fight. The exact same thing continues in the cutscene. This even happens with the Dughal fight; he is really hard to hit the whole fight because he keeps running away from you and letting his blade tank the hits. They then address this in the cutscene. Compare this to the fight with Metal Face, you basically can't lose the fight. When you play as Lady Meyneth for a fight, you literally can't lose. (You can actually lose in new game +, but not in your first playthrough.) Then, in the cut-scenes after both fights, your characters are revealed to have no chance.
I actually played through 1 recently with my mom, and she got frustrated quite a few times by me winning fights, but losing in cutscenes. Both games have this problem. It didn't bother me in either game because I don't associate health bars with life force. And both games have some good examples of gameplay and story integration. When you fight the High Entia in Alcamoth, Shulk only does one damage because the Monado doesn't work on High Entia yet. Or having the vision during the fight with Egil.
@@falcondjd exactly this. So many boss fights in XC1 are doable and actually fairly easy. For example, during my playthrough of DE, I (unintentionally) put Yaldabaoth in a topple lock, and he stayed there for five minutes before I realized his hp wasn't going down. I was very clearly in a position where the boss couldn't do anything other than die, but the game says no, Egil has to beat you. He's not even very hard! I would much rather beat the boss and get my rewards and lose in the cutscene than be unable to beat a boss that I can take no problem because it's scripted that I lose.
In fact, I can't think of a single difficult fight in XC1. I know Lorithia gave people trouble, but she's nowhere close to how difficult some of the fights in XC2 are. Akhos and Malos in chapter 3, the Phantasms, Malos and Jin. These are challenging fights, and I just can't think of anything that can compare in XC1 (it also doesn't help that if you're 5 levels above an enemy, it's pretty much an auto win and it's very easy to be overlevelled if you do a few sidequests).
@@conorb.1901 I don't think I have ever gone so long, but I have definitely toppled locked bosses for a while. Then, you have to wait for the topple to end, so you can lose. That is easily worse than losing in a cutscene.
I agree that most of the fights in Xenoblade 1 are rather easy. Even most of the superbosses aren't hard. It is mostly just a question of do you have the gear to handle their gimmick.
In regards to being overleveled, all three games have a problem with this. 1DE has the least problem with being overleveled because you can decrease your level on your first playthrough. I am currently doing a new playthrough of 2, and I wanted to make sure I didn't end up overleveled, and I find it very frustrating because I have to be so careful not to accidentally get too much xp doing side stuff (which is one of my favorite parts of these games). You can get like five levels from a single boss or unique monster sometimes.
@@falcondjd the great thing about XC2 is that any exp from sidequests and things goes straight into bonus exp. It doesn't actually increase your level until you decide to sleep at an inn and increase it yourself. I stayed pretty competently leveled my first playthrough, due mostly to overkills from chain attacks, ending the game at 70 the same level as the final boss. I just used bexp to keep everyone at an even level because I like it when everybody levels up at the same time.
Yeah, DE definitely made the overlevelling issue less prevalent, and I personally really dislike the "5 levels above/below" system because an enemy can go from pretty much impossible to beat to a cakewalk from just a single level. Heck, a lot of the super bosses have extremely low agility becsuse the red tag buffs would make them untouchable without night vision gems (which they still require, but your accuracy would be very shaky if their agility was higher, just look at the only one with good agility, Despitic Arsene).
Not something I expected to find, but good vid. Good vid.
Still waiting for that Shulk video
Xenoblade 2 haters and rex haters more so really do not understand story telling lmao. If rex was super strong from the start and never lost then where is the story and his character development? He would be like so many generic anime characters where they stay the same the whole story and are just super strong.
Oh yeah remember that time nia gave malos mega cancer
I feel like you were thinking too hard for some of these.
Is the first battle with Morag not a clear win fore Rex and his team?
Morag pointed out that Rex avertd his aim. If Rex would have hit Morag with that attack she might have been done fore. Even if not she would have atleast being injured and with Brighid being all wett and her being injured she would have been screwed if Rex team decided to gang up on her.
Rex holded back otherwise Morag would be dead.
I would consider the Tantal ambush to be a success since one of the party members (Morag) didnt even try to fight and saved her energy to outsmart them later.
I'm also not sure the Malos fight near the end of chapter 7 is an actual win since I think Malos was just messing with them. I doubt Nia's attack actually did anything.
Oh, and I don't think we even need to bring up the other xeno series.
I think that the Malos akhos fight is a they succeed but at what cost?
Depends. Ingame? Few. Cutscenes? Many.
i would LOVE a xenoblade 1 video about this
If anything my problem is that they don't lose enough.
And the problem with the whole 'win in game lose in cutscene' thing is that the battle system really doesn't lend itself well to that. The most common way to do it that doesn't feel cheap is simply to not let the enemy go down to 0% HP, if the fight simply stops at say 30% instead then it's clear that the enemy shouldn't be dead/incapacitated. But the way the combat system works in 2 is that it wants you to "overkill" your enemies with chain attacks, this makes it so they cant just stop the fight at 30% since chain attacks need to be able to overkill so as to reward skilled play.
3 has an annoying few moments where you win a fight and then get wrecked in the cutscene. There’s a few fights were you don’t get to win, just do a fight, don’t let me win then take it away
I just hate the trope where you’re literally kicking the boss’ ass, then you get them to half hp, it fades to black, and the ensuing cutscene goes on to say how they’re “too strong”, etc. Not only does it completely take me out of it, it isn’t at all reflecting the fight i just had as a player. The fucking scorpion at the cliffs of morytha (around the same level) was more of a challenge than any of the following boss fights.
I genuinely don’t care if the protagonist loses or not, I just hate scripted losses where there isn’t a convincing gameplay reason for the player to give up with the characters.
I do not need a supplementary cutscene where the main character powers up, has a fight scene, and then makes the already easy fight easier.
The primary issue people had would be you would win a fight in the battle and then would lose a fight/losing a fight in the cutscene. First fight with Malos, Brighid and Morag are excellent examples of this.
“But XC1 did the same thing where’s the complaints for that” 1. That’s not an argument, and 2. The game would literally stop you halfway through the healthbar for fights you weren’t supposed to win, Metal Face as a perfect example of this.
People have already mentioned this but if they did end the fights early, then it wouldn't have meshed well with the games overkill mechanic.
@@jackleveille9319 Then don’t set the overkill mechanic to be triggered or to be impossible to trigger in fights you are supposed to lose or aren’t going to win. It creates a dissonance with the gameplay and the story and makes the player feel less in control of the game then they should feel. Or set those fights to be won narratively and create new reasons why they have to run. Having you win the fight in cutscene and not in narrative messes with the players own agency in the story. Also with the major offenders, overkill is not introduced just yet.
@@Kevinrikeith but you can overkill bosses with Fusion Combos and that gives you bonus experience as well.
@@jackleveille9319 Like the overkill mechanic is a good point, just if you are going to beat the boss in the game, the player is going to expect to beat them in cutscene, a cutscene where you are losing makes the player feel like they have less agency in an area where they should have more.
@@jackleveille9319 Again, then set certain instances where it can’t be triggered or, you can do the KH1 Leon route where you make a boss harder for beginners of the series that you are supposed to lose and have an alternate cutscene where it still ends the same but with a slightly different result. The point is having the player lose battles you won in gameplay is not the way to go.
I really liked that Rex lost in the early game, he had no experience at all as a driver, so winning against Mor Ardain and Tantal’s strongest drivers, Mor Ardain and Torna’s strongest blades, the other Aegis, and the head of a well known mercenary organisation would be unrealistic and just seem like plot armour
Okay but consider this, what if the first Morag fight was split into 2 phases. The first phase you get her down to half health and then the cutscene shows them struggling. Rex then has his water tower idea and makes a strategic retreat.
Phase 2 then takes place in the field directly in front of the water tower. You remove the rest of Morag's HP and then the cutscene shows the party getting the upper hand by bringing the water tower down on her. You'd consider that a straight up win right?
So I'd actually say the first fight with Morag could technically be counted as another win for the party.
I don’t mind the protagonists losing, it’s better than having them effortlessly win every fight like and isekai power fantasy. Besides, as some else commented, Jin is a war hero from Torna, while Malos is an aegis armed with a monado, so losing to them is understandable.
I just dislike “win-to-lose” boss fights. There are few things more frustrating in games when you are required to win a boss fight, and put in the effort to win said boss fight, and succeed in beating it, only to be told you lost in a Cutscene. The cold steel games are especially bad about this.