I enjoyed the conversation. I was a Christian as a teenager. Became a skeptic and occasionally a buddhist and after over 10 years came back to Christianity. And it took one Christian friend who was a genuine friend and did not make assumptions about what atheists and unbelievers were like. I love your approach Sean McDowell.
Chindi Chimbelu I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field
Block Huggers706 I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
I agree. He’s very different from the rough and cold apologists that spew scriptures and history books at people nonstop. I’m glad he popped up in my feed. A great example of Christlikeness.
i was just commenting, i'm atheist but i've seen a few videos with sean and he's great, about the most unbiased in his dissection of the bible and gospels, he's one guy i have no problem with at all.
Michael Alfred Tan I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
I like your idea but that is because both these men are of good will with an effort towards honesty instead of coming off with the sort of right wing initiated vitriol outright partisanship including outright deceit that we so often see today.
Jon, please do not stop asking your questions and don’t disappear. Thank you for this! As a Christian I find your views and questions so, so good. They make me uncomfortable because I recognize my own lack of understanding. And I hope you & Sean will continue your discussions.
I'm so impressed by Jon Steingard's obvious sincerity and intellectual honesty. As an ex-Christian myself I wish I wad able to discuss such difficult questions with such transparency. Sean McDowell is (almost) as impressive although, of course, I don't agree with his conclusions.
Yes. I don't think God is afraid of questioning. To worship God in Spirit and Truth. I left Christianity years ago. But I love Sean and his respect. This is a great conversation.
@@DIBBY40 he even said for us to love him with heart, soul, and MIND :) He wouldn't have given us free will if he didn't want us to be able to question things and TRULY come to know him for ourselves :D
@wurlyfan...Imagine if you were allowed to discuss and express your concerns or struggles in love. All too often when someone has questions they are silenced or pushed aside. People are not given the room to truly find their footing. We fail to always lead in love.. People don't allow growth as an individual matures...we each can look at our own lives and notice changes in our views at different stages. All too often we are made to believe if we think or act a certain way...look the part and we're accepted-i.e. denominations for example: Pentacostal=Big on Dress Code, Baptist=Hit you over the head, everything is a sin, etc. Can a person truly "come" as they are? Look at the state of the division within the church today with the amount of growths of subgroups. People are going to have questions on their walk. We need to operate in love and be respectful to a person when they are trying to sort things out.
I love the depth, the openness, and the honesty of this conversation. Huge respect to both of you. Thank you for not being afraid to have these conversations, and for being willing to listen to each other’s views.
When Dr Sean McDowell says that God will do the right thing for people who haven’t heard the gospel or for young children. A question you should always follow up with is how many babies or children are in hell, is there at least one...of either?. Because the answer he gave is just a nice way of saying if God does send children or people who haven’t heard the gospel to hell it is right for him to do so. Some Christians won’t even say that there is one baby or child in hell.
@@CalvinR90 He didn't say that children go to hell. Actually Jesus says that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to a such as the children. So, Jesus answered it: children go to Heaven.
@@luzdivina2706 from the translation I’m familiar with I think Jesus says you must be “like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven or something to that effect and then he Say’s the kingdom of heaven is has children like these, could be wrong we should check lol also there are babies in the Old Testament god judged pretty harshly if they are going to heaven
Jon! Keep asking questions. Your humility is beautiful. You are slow to speak and demonstrate so many qualities found in the Bible. Your desire and pursuit of truth will lead you to truth…who just happens to be a person (Jesus). I admire that you wrestle. I admire that you are continuing to push into understanding yourself in relationship to a world view. I feel with all my heart that you have God given wisdom and discernment -that has not left you. May God bless you! May God reward your openness! And may the church learn better how to reflect the fullness of the gospel. I love you both and pray God bless you and your families.
Haven't finished listening yet, but already love the dialogue. Love the attitude from both Sean and Jon. Sincerely hoping and praying that your friendship will continue. Truly appreciate your honesty and openness, Jon. I could somewhat relate to what you've described so far. I grew up in a non-Christian home, in Indonesia, and didn't become a Christian until my 3rd year in college, in Houston. Left church for more than 10 years and had returned 4 years ago. Transforming Grace by Jerry Bridges was one of the many books that God used.
This video shows the importance of teaching the Bible as truth that makes sense, and is supported by facts, evidence, logic, relationships, rationality and love. Too often churches present the Bible as if it's a fairytale or personal private myth. The depth of Christianity is amazing, the questions explored are profound and the conception of God logical and consistent with the human experience.
My church like most has a 30-40 min teaching of the word of God...in a whole week which is a joke when you think how important it is....life and death for people...I agree that so many churches desperately need a thinking approach..using all our minds. I have been in the "New" churches where visions, voices, experiences...ie. mysticism trumps the word of God....a disaster. I have just resiegned from a " Baptist" church that is actually now a pentecostal Hillsong church now...so common.
you should watch more of seans videos, he is really good at sifting fact from fiction, he's still got it wrong, the bible is all fiction, but at least he's searching for truth wherever it may lead, and he doesn't bullshit like nearly ALL believers do.
This is a great example of someone who is trying to fit their answers into a preconceived worldview (Sean, constructed) and someone who is developing their worldview from the ground up (Jon, deconstructed). I loved listening to this and all the honest answers.
I can so deeply relate to Jon's genuine search for answers and I am so grateful that Sean is being so gentle and understanding as always. Thanks and keep searching for answers guyz and keep helping people like me with no other support system than these conversations. 💜
I love the openness and respect that this conversation has. Jon I hope you're doing well and Sean thank you for showing that Christians can be kind and loving.
Anthony Rowden I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
When the church gathers in more of a living room like atmosphere, meaningful dialogues like this one can manifest. We can help one another discover "truth in the inward parts"
Saw the other conversation and wanted more. Thanks for continuing this conversation. Truly remarkable! Jon, thanks for opening your life to us. Great questions.
Great conversation. Very good. Keep asking questions. Keep searching. I was raised Christian. Tried other stuff for a season. I’ve studied and read and searched and I did end up with the “Christian” God but it wasn’t 100% through my upbringing or parents or friends. It was directly through God himself. Keep searching and you’ll end up somewhere. Obviously I’m biased and I hope you end up with Jesus but either way, keep on keeping on! Honestly I love where he’s at. It’s a much more forward, honest, purposeful place that a lot of people who call themselves “Christians”.
Hi Sean, watching @ 6am from South Africa 🇿🇦. You are such a ‘nice’ kind, sensitive, gracious person. I love the way you speak, minister and reach out to people generally and especially to Jon ❤️
Lynette Thomson I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
Jon: I so appreciate your willingness to have these conversations. You have such an openness and intellectual approach to your thinking. It helps me understand others who have doubts about the faith. Keep it up.
This is how these conversations should be had; agree to disagree but continue to be more than civil but Christlike in the love and respect shown to someone who in my opinion is looking to believe again but has hit quite a few obstacles.
Been looking for more channels like yours, youtube algorithms are wierd, seems like you would have popped up in my recommended along time ago. Watched about 10 of your videos in past two days, love the conent and the way you debate, hold your self together. Comes across very gentle and christlike but very informative.
Now that I heard this interview, I think Jon's deconversion is actually a good thing. He totally doesn't understand anything about true Biblical Christianity. It seems like he only knew "churchianity" doctrines, and that's what he decides to leave. And that's great! And an even better thing is that he says he reads the Bible more now. I hope that journey will eventually lead him to the true Biblical Christ and truly become a real Christian. May God bless him
I agree with you! You can not walk away from christ when you never had Him to begin with. If I understand correctly, he was involved with church activity because he was raised in it but never had that defining moment when he came to a realization of the gravity of our sinful nature in need of a Savior. "Doing church" is dangerous. I am praying for his salvation as I am sure MANY others are too. What a opportunity for him to stop and investigate for himself the grace and mercy of Christ, the need for a Savior and the miracle of the death and resurrection of Christ. It is better to be in the place he is at, investigation faith in Christ and not just doing works in the church body or music ministry, then to continue not really know what they believe or why they believe it. God bless you all!
i love that believers are really quick to diss people who were part of their tribe just a while ago, real christian of you. and the "there's no true scotsman" argument, isn't.
@@HarryNicNicholas I love how ignorant people post ignorant comments and saying "logical fallacy" terms to make them sound more knowledgeable than they actually are.
Great conversation, great witness. Sean, you are an effective apologist in word and in deed - 1 Peter 3:15. Cannot wait to see what the Holy Spirit will do with this conversation and witness to Jon.
John is so humble, I really hope he finds wot he is looking for. I’m kinda in the same position as he is. John ur awesome 😎. All the best. Sean is amazing too, and I’m glad they met each other🤗
I totally relate to Jon. Would love to be able to find a circle of individuals like him, and Sean for that matter, that I could conversate with. Is there a place like that, where it's not dogmatic bashing. Great job guys!
Jon, you are now on a true journey of faith. Many people have a faith based in church culture. I have been thru real periods of doubt (a believer 33 yrs). Repentance is key. Read your Bible right the way thru starting at the beginning right to the end. I'll be praying for you 💕
I’m not sure anymore if that is good advice. Finding out many people try to read straight through and get bogged down in the Old Testament and quit reading. Maybe start with John and the New Testament. It is easier to “understand “ without the holy spirit.
Jon great question about music events and church worship. How music moves us.Also the sin issue was very thought provoking! Just want to mention I am a Christian and learning from this ongoing conversation.Wow great response Sean.
Keep doing this guys you are an inspiration - faith is not fake is real it’s growing, I think truth doesn’t shade away from being question and scrutiny - keep doing these you touched life -
C.S. Lewis used as an atheist the problem of pain and suffering as a reason not to believe, until one day he realized if there was no God, there would be no good or evil, and the problem of pain would be of no value. God, he found is the only way to distinguish whether something is good or evil. So, in a moment the argument against God was what convinced him of God! That day he was no longer atheist....he then pursued "which God" was true. He later came to Christ. Good conversation. Praying for you, Jon. Thanks, Sean. ✌😎
Wow what an amazing conversation. I’m a huge confident believer but I think there are so many out there like Jon who are unsure and have a lots of questions. These type of conversations are perfect to help so many. Thank you!
SOOO good!!! Jon, you made that such an awesome conversation!! I can relate so much to that!!! I have also had extreme doubts the last months. The one and only thing that was always certain was for me, that there is someone/-thing that shows his power and beauty in creation. Currently I feel christianity leaves me with a lot of dissatisfaction in some questions. But leaving christianity leaves me with nothing at all EXCEPT that I am definitly missing the truth on who/what the creator is. This is why I stay a christian for now and urge&trust god to help me with my doubts&questions.
Hi Gabriel, doubt gives us room to search and that's a good thing. A lot of growth can come out of this and God definitely wants us to seek. What I gather from what you've said is that you are setting a guard around you and how far you let yourself go. Like Sean's father said to him, please don't let go of God unless you are convinced that whatever else you think is out there is offering you better (paraphrased). Please continue to speak to doctrinally sound people and if you need evidence, then I'm finding that there is evidence for Jesus even outside of the Bible- just from listening to theologians and apologists on UA-cam. I pray for you that through this journey, you find God and His undying love for you; that you find relationship and not religion.
I think what you describe is what Jesus described as this first commandment, to love God with all your mind and heart, as that gives you that ability to check through your doubts. Jons story is that which is described in the death of Lazarus. The people at the time were far more aware that death was more than the physical one as they understood life to be not the function of their body but the function of your soul as well. Thus the "illiterate" hearing the story of the fall might have still understood this poetic description of puberty for what it meant, the separation of the children from the line of authority thus becoming their own self and thus dying by breaking their link with eternity. Jons second wave puberty comes with his confrontation with suffering, the problem of the mismatch between ones expectation of reality and ones perceived reality. It laid open the foundation of his faith in a Santa's big brother God that should please arrange reality in accordance with his scripture (not "the scripture" as that is not the Disney version of the reality view we get accustomed to). The blaming of God to allow humans to die is often portrayed in the death of children as we can relate to them as the innocent, a bit like the kitten model to call on our protective instincts. Clearly Christians can not argue that they deserved to die because they were sinners, as they often do, thus deserving God's death sentence. Surely Granny dying is okay as she had her fill and deserves her death sentence anyhow. For crying out loud that those self perceived intellectuals have discovered the problem of death as irreconcilable with the Disney belief. When Jon describes his Uganda moment and asks himself why God allows those kids to become abandoned and die by lack of support and why his pizza boy God does not do something about it and creates that happy ending, he clearly needs explaining that he is the pizza boy and that God has sent him there to do something about it. It appears that this does not cross his mind. After all, God is to serve us, not the other way round. Better stop here and wish you all the best in getting though your doubts. Keep loving God with all your heart and mind and eventually you will find your way from the tree of self realisation to the tree of life in Jesus. I wish you to realise that Jesus is alive, not as a physical separate entity, but inside you, with all that love for the eternal father. To live forever is the art to learn to live in jesus heart. once you get there you realise that you are part of the eternal, that the physical death is only a problem for the selfish, not for God, as you become one again with him, if you repent and wish to be, and like the lost son will be welcome back. After all, when God said: "If you eat from that tree you will certainly die" he did not say as many hear him "if you eat from that tree I will certainly have to kill you as part of my revenge" but he warns his children like every loving father would do of the dangers of the consequences of their actions, e.g. to become mortal if defining yourself in that physical body. However in Jesus on the cross he invites us to eat from that tree of life instead, so that we can become one again.
Awesome conversation!!! Thank you so much, Jon and Sean, for discussing these important topics. I had watched your conversation on Unbelievable, which was incredible, but just now found this conversation. Now I want to see if there is a follow up to this. I hope so!! Please keep having these! This is so helpful for all of us to learn how to have more respectful conversations with those of different beliefs.
Wow, what a thoughtful, respectful conversation. I love that Sean is so kind & encouraging yet doesn’t waiver from what I also believe is the truth of God, Jesus & the Gospel. I love that Jon is seeking to understand. Thank you for sharing this. I’m curious if there are plans for another conversation soon. I would love to hear both of your thoughts on the fall of Ravi since he was mentioned several times in both conversations.
As Ravi Zacharias is famous for saying: "My premise is that the popular aphorism that 'all religions are fundamentally the same and only superficially different' simply is not true. It is more correct to say that all religions are, at best, superficially similar but fundamentally different."
The point Jon is making is that most religions have a "good". This is true and I felt Sean could have capitalized on this by possibly saying that this is written on the hearts of men, a TYPE of goodness, the afterglow of God's highest creation still carries His image, but in a twisted way.. It's why the heart always looks for a diety and seeks after goodness that won't be found until Christ and salvation is received. Haha, even after, we still struggle with sin.
Does the fish know it is wet scenario is also at play with westerners questioning their faith.. Me..coming from a non westerner nationality and belief..I see the struggles of many of my western brother n sisters. It's almost like an immigrant coming from Southeast Asia Africa South America to the USA and seeing the City in the Hill, while the citizens of the City in the Hill is questioning doubting rejecting and bored of life in the City..while us outsiders want to get in because we see what the outside looks like. God bless
As someone who went through a faith crisis and landed on atheist, I'm offended that Sean called some former believers Jaded. A faith crisis is a whole process. And anger is one very common feeling to experience in a faith crisis. It doesn't mean a person is jaded. And I feel like Jon has more learning to do to understand reality as it is. He's very new and may be very impressionable. I hope he keeps searching for answers that lead to truth and not just what feels right.
Worship music was a huge part of my faith and I love hawk nelson!!! I was part of my church worship team as a singer so its a weird experience now when I listen to Christian music I still like the songs but I don't believe the Bible is inspired by God anymore not sure if there is a God or where we came from just know that I want to b the best person I can be and love others. Matt on atheist experience talked about that feeling of the holy spirit during worship music and I can relate I feel the same emotion when I listen to stairway to heaven by led zeppelin.... i think some music affects our emotions... maybe our soul deeply. Epistemology had a big part in my deconstruction....
I know this is a year in the past and not likely to Garner anyone's attention but here I am watching this a year later so who knows who might also watch and also read comments. I am a pastor's son. Five of six siblings. But I would not say I got my faith from my father, still there is much to be said about how God was always a part of my life. I may have been baptized when I was eight because my 11 year old brother was also getting baptized and I didn't want to be left out, but my real Faith came when I was a freshman in high school and my older brother was leaving for college. And all my other older siblings had already left for college. My dad was in the military and wasn't living where we were living due to military housing situation. So I was left to ponder life and God on my own. This isn't to say that I couldn't have reached out to anyone, but I felt the pressure to be sure in a world where everyone else was already sure. This drove me to apologetics as a 9th grader. Apologetics is not a popular topic as a 9th grader. Throughout high School when others wanted to talk about girls and cars, I wanted to know why the Bible was true if it was true. Experientially, what I would consider the presence of God was a heavy presence in my life during this time. I understand that experience doesn't equal reality but it does shape my reality. Memories can be false, feelings manipulated, and experience contrived. But at some point in time we have to accept the possibility that experience is reality. I have sought wisdom from other faiths and as of yet I have found each of them lacking. The only face that has stood the test of time and scrutiny has been the God of the Bible. I know this isn't going to help a non-believer. "Oh yeah another believer believes the book that he says he believes in." However when I say that I have looked into it know that I have a masters in Divinity, I have read the Bible from front to back, and consumed many books from non-Christian authors denouncing Christianity and have found their arguments lacking.
15:00 An easy definition of sin that I have gravitated to: Violating the purpose of your existence. "Sin is changing the purpose of God for our lives and becoming self-serving. This pertains to all matters with which we are entrusted. Whether time, money, words, commitments, relationships, or stewardship, we are given the freedom and responsibility to honor those particulars in a manner that is consistent with our God-given purpose. God’s word given to humanity has been redefined by humanity. His word was specific but we have scrambled it up, thinking we know better."
Sin must be defined by the Bible. It is found in 1 John 3:4. Sin is a transgression of God's law. That is, sin is going outside or over (trans) what God says.
Dr. McDowell - What Mr. Jon Steingard is going through is what many experience. I know for me, when I gave my life to the Lord I was sent on my way with no viable discipleship and I was left confused as to what do I do now. Unfortunately, when I would ask questions, especially when faced with a life crisis trying to figure out real-life application to bible verses, I was frowned upon or told to speak like this, dress this way, and show up to church when the doors open and that would prove my faith. Fast forward at age 62 - I'm in a place where I feel like I'm a disappointment to God because I can't get this walk right. Where does a person like me go? Pray, fast, ask the Lord for help but no billboards nor have I had an encounter walking out of my home where anyone of the faith was willing to sit with me to sort things out so, I'm taking on the attitude of faking it until I make it I guess. We need to have honest dialogue on the tough questions people may have (What do you do when prayers go unanswered? Why do some struggle even after taking steps towards God? Why is there racial division within the church if we are Jesus followers....where's the love for our fellow man?). This is valuable topic and how Christian Leaders respond to this and respect or lack thereof for Mr. Steingard's journey can demonstrate the Lord's love.
I know what you mean about asking questions. Just because your questions were frowned upon doesn't mean that they went away. People just wanted to repress them and dismiss them because it made them uncomfortable.
This is a very good conversation. And it is also questioning the foundation of my faith in Jesus. Is it based on experience, feelings or on divine revelation? Because if it is not based on Jesus Christ being revealed to me it can not endure. So, praise God, the beginning of my Christian journey was when Jesus was talking to me personally through scripture that a human being was reciting and I knew that in this moment Jesus was talking through this man to me.
John uses the word 'feels' a lot. We base our beliefs on faith and reason. “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams
Absolutely LOVE this! I can't believe how similar this guy's experience is to mine. I no longer believe in Mormonism and I totally feel many if the same things. Even to the point where I don't know whether to call myself Mormon or not! Loved this conversation! Thanks guys!
I grew up mormon as well, after years of approved reading my paradigm changed, as a believer in jesus christ i think religious systems are often the crutch that people never get over needing, i hope you heal fully and experience peace. Im currently helping to build a facility that helps the leadership from having to be confronted by regular members or questioning ones, the only way forward i believe for them and any other system is to confront the criticisms with integrity and a willingness to accept reality.
@@danvan2683 I totally agree we should confront this stuff with integrity and honesty. Those thoughts are the ones I couldn't live with while teaching Mormonism via callings or to my kids.
@@123mneil im an ironworker, the new high rise im on in salt lake city isolates the leaders and connects to a tunnel system they use to go from place to place without ever being seen, living quarters on the top few floors and a private meeting house under them with rented space below that.
@@123mneil this tunnel system isnt new, they have always traveled from the temple and office building and their apartments using a tunnel, this is just another building connected to it.
I hope you guys do continue this conversation. Id really like to hear more from both sides. I think these are really valuable issues to talk about and explore.
I think it’s vital to remember for Christians to realize that belief in the Truth is a grace God imparts to us to believe. Without his grace none of us would be able to believe. There are many apologetic arguments that make our belief more certain but bottom line it’s a choice to receive the grace of God to believe 🙏
Your ability to have sensitive conversations with truth is legendary big bro! Great work! Praying for my buddy Jon Steingard he seems like a really nice guy
IsHeARealOne - VadaRealMC I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
This is such a great conversation for me because many times we treat salvation in a legalistic way. It helps me learn how to talk to different people about this salvation that is God's property that he allows us to share in because of Jesus. Thank you so much for the compassion of this conversation.
Jon (or Sean)...I missed the live stream but just watched. Really good conversation. Yes, sounds like lots of book suggestions from listeners and here's another. Jon, I'm sure you're familiar with Rich Mullins. A friend of his, James Smith, many years ago wrote the book "An Arrow Pointing to Heaven", based on the author's personal impressions and further research of Mullins' life and impact. As a musician I'm sure you could relate. It's a tremendous account of how Christ used the brokenness of a life (brokenness we all have) with great impact for greater glory. Hope you get a chance to read if you haven't already. -John H.
Sean is probably the only apologist that is not painful to listen to and although we disagree, he is honest and I respect him. Also I have a couple questions about christians and their beliefs. If anybody is kind enough to let me ask them please do tell.
For me, that inner "knowing" when I first came to faith, buttressed by my seeking Him and finding answers in his word is a very solid foundation in my life. Ecclesiastes shows the futility of living a life of folly. The obvious examples of evil and good in todays culture show the battle between good vs evil. Being involved in funerals of friends an loved ones now (I'm in my mid sixties now.) for me offers a very clear contrast between belief and in belief. If we are just a product of random chance, molecules to man doesn't give solid answers in an otherwise meaningless existence. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God... ultimately God promises: If we seek him we'll find him if we search for him with all their heart. I found that a truth statement that means much to me. 😉👍
The older I got the more I realised the bible is true and that the human heart is wicked....I denied it for years but God slowly and graciously showed me that it was true. I started out being close to God as a child in a Christian home and was very kind and good and hated the hypocrisy in the church....how far I fell later....It has taken me or God has chased me all my life to save me...I see it now...I suffered a lot but now I see it was the only way I would ever have changed. He loved me... I now see. I really want to see others saved...the churches have many non believers in them and are not serious about loving God.
At around 7:50 Jon said he was 18 or 19 when he started to think about his life and God. Well, I know a guy that at that same age had no thoughts of God that he recalls of. He was finishing high school in the most atheistic environment one can think of. The education and everything around was completely atheist. He studied engineering in a university in the capital of the CCCP. He met his wife in that same university and later got married in a civilian court in that city. When he was 30 they migrated to USA. They raised children. They both had good employments. In his 40s he was invited to church by his supervisor. Shortly before he turned 50 the veils that blurred his spiritual vision fell off and could shamefully realize that he had ignored or rejected his Creator for so many years (sin) but God had offered him the way to be forgiven and become God’s child through genuine repentance and saving faith in Christ alone. He accepted God’s gracious offer. Praise Adonai!
I have no doubt that this guy is anchored in God. He is just a prodigal. Mark my words....he will come back and have e a great testimony that will help so many prodigals come back to the father. Can't wait to see and hear His testimony. I pray!
Steingard's sincere/honest/heartfelt questions shows how important apologetics training is for professing Christians. Because he brings up basic and important questions that a Christian should have already asked and had answers to before leaving adolescence, and "leaving the faith" in adulthood. Unfortunately, Steingard may never have been regenerate. I'm glad and applaud Steingard is NOW asking these types of questions. But he should have been asking them in his Christian youth. A nominal and cultural Christianity isn't real faith. Hopefully he eventually comes to saving faith for the first time or returns to a sincere faith that he temporarily lost. As a Calvinist I believe in the perseverance of the saints. But even in Calvinism, there's the acknowledgement that it's possible that a true believer could backslide for a time before returning to the faith. Since in Calvinism regeneration cannot be lost. Though, some non-Calvinists Christians believe salvation and regeneration can be lost. Either only once, or multiple times.
I love Jung and I am a Christian and had the same thoughts about the shadow incorporation. If Christianity is done properly then it would do this naturally by forcing an awareness of your own evil.
I would say that the argument that people see God in nature does not point to seeing Jesus in nature. If acceptance of God, in the generic, is salvific, then “all roads lead to God” and the validity of other faiths is an obvious conclusion
Wait... why didn't I connect the dots that you are the son of one of my favorite authors.. .?😅 I met your dad a few years ago in Mexico, you both have been huge blessings in my life.
59:57. Jon fully exposes the apologetical enterprise. It's aimed at us as a branding exercise but intended to retain believers. And the funny thing is how many look at the apologetical evidence and find it comes well short. Granted it does help many stay, no doubt. However it shows what it's really all about.
I didn't intend to listen to the whole video but ended up doing so, I listened to your last conversation on unbelievable channel, keep up the good work, for me he's not completely open anymore, I hear the voice of Barth and Matt D in his argument still I appreciate his willingness
Simon Peraboh I believe the Word of God works slowly but surely. If we pray as if we know what will happen then it’s doubting our faith, rather than doubting our doubts...
I have really enjoyed the conversations you and Jon have had in these two videos. Your actual communication without discord has been refreshing. It seems that everything in our lives today is bathed in conflict. Thank you both.
Aidan Gillespie I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
I enjoyed the conversation. I was a Christian as a teenager. Became a skeptic and occasionally a buddhist and after over 10 years came back to Christianity. And it took one Christian friend who was a genuine friend and did not make assumptions about what atheists and unbelievers were like. I love your approach Sean McDowell.
i'm atheist and i agree, sorta, and sean is a great researcher and about as unbiased as it's possible for a beliver to be.
Chindi Chimbelu I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field
l_TNT_BOOM_l so cool..
@whokoo Unfortunately you were never a Christian.
Gary Habermas also was really attracted to Buddhism, and he almost became a Buddhist. I don't know very much about it. What did you find appealing?
I love how transparent Jon is. He really lays it all out there, not hiding from anything.
I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
Dr Sean your gentle Christ like character is so convicting and edifying. GREAT Conversation. Love ya bruh
Block Huggers706 I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
I agree. He’s very different from the rough and cold apologists that spew scriptures and history books at people nonstop. I’m glad he popped up in my feed. A great example of Christlikeness.
@@PrayerClosetKimyetta 100% agree. It's a nice break from John MacArthur scolding me 😆
@@stevenrogersfineart4224 😂😂😂
This is a great exmaple of how discussions between people differing views should be conducted. So much grace and respect. God bless you both!!!
i was just commenting, i'm atheist but i've seen a few videos with sean and he's great, about the most unbiased in his dissection of the bible and gospels, he's one guy i have no problem with at all.
Michael Alfred Tan I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
I like your idea but that is because both these men are of good will with an effort towards honesty instead of coming off with the sort of right wing initiated vitriol outright partisanship including outright deceit that we so often see today.
💯💯💯👍👍👍
Jon, please do not stop asking your questions and don’t disappear. Thank you for this! As a Christian I find your views and questions so, so good. They make me uncomfortable because I recognize my own lack of understanding. And I hope you & Sean will continue your discussions.
K A I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
@K A....agree because he is not the only one on this journey and I appreciate what he is sorting out for himself. God knows Jon's heart.
Absolutely agree with you @K A
I'm so impressed by Jon Steingard's obvious sincerity and intellectual honesty. As an ex-Christian myself I wish I wad able to discuss such difficult questions with such transparency. Sean McDowell is (almost) as impressive although, of course, I don't agree with his conclusions.
Yes. I don't think God is afraid of questioning. To worship God in Spirit and Truth. I left Christianity years ago. But I love Sean and his respect. This is a great conversation.
@@DIBBY40 he even said for us to love him with heart, soul, and MIND :)
He wouldn't have given us free will if he didn't want us to be able to question things and TRULY come to know him for ourselves :D
@@stevenrogersfineart4224 Would that necessarily mean coming to the conclusion of evangelical christianity though Steven?
@wurlyfan...Imagine if you were allowed to discuss and express your concerns or struggles in love. All too often when someone has questions they are silenced or pushed aside. People are not given the room to truly find their footing. We fail to always lead in love.. People don't allow growth as an individual matures...we each can look at our own lives and notice changes in our views at different stages. All too often we are made to believe if we think or act a certain way...look the part and we're accepted-i.e. denominations for example: Pentacostal=Big on Dress Code, Baptist=Hit you over the head, everything is a sin, etc. Can a person truly "come" as they are? Look at the state of the division within the church today with the amount of growths of subgroups. People are going to have questions on their walk. We need to operate in love and be respectful to a person when they are trying to sort things out.
@@simplydee4522 I’m Pentecostal and we’re not big on dress code at all.
I love the depth, the openness, and the honesty of this conversation. Huge respect to both of you. Thank you for not being afraid to have these conversations, and for being willing to listen to each other’s views.
How I wish more people could converse with mutual respect as these two men have done. Great conversation, thank you for doing this.
As a believer, I have wrestled with these same questions. Hearing the dialogue between you two is so encouraging to me. Please do this again!
When Dr Sean McDowell says that God will do the right thing for people who haven’t heard the gospel or for young children. A question you should always follow up with is how many babies or children are in hell, is there at least one...of either?. Because the answer he gave is just a nice way of saying if God does send children or people who haven’t heard the gospel to hell it is right for him to do so. Some Christians won’t even say that there is one baby or child in hell.
@@CalvinR90 He didn't say that children go to hell. Actually Jesus says that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to a such as the children. So, Jesus answered it: children go to Heaven.
@@luzdivina2706 from the translation I’m familiar with I think Jesus says you must be “like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven or something to that effect and then he Say’s the kingdom of heaven is has children like these, could be wrong we should check lol also there are babies in the Old Testament god judged pretty harshly if they are going to heaven
@@luzdivina2706 1 Samuel 15:3 is a good example of babies being judged pretty hard
Jon! Keep asking questions. Your humility is beautiful. You are slow to speak and demonstrate so many qualities found in the Bible. Your desire and pursuit of truth will lead you to truth…who just happens to be a person (Jesus). I admire that you wrestle. I admire that you are continuing to push into understanding yourself in relationship to a world view. I feel with all my heart that you have God given wisdom and discernment -that has not left you. May God bless you! May God reward your openness! And may the church learn better how to reflect the fullness of the gospel. I love you both and pray God bless you and your families.
Actually so refreshing to see conversations like this with both people showing such respect, kindness, and patience!!!
Can't wait to watch your other conversations. Thanks for being so civil and kind.
You bet. Thank you for watching!
so good to have these issues discussed with grace and love. Dundee Scotland
I cannot believe how generous, humble, patient and non judgmental Dr. Sean McDowell is.
Haven't finished listening yet, but already love the dialogue. Love the attitude from both Sean and Jon. Sincerely hoping and praying that your friendship will continue. Truly appreciate your honesty and openness, Jon. I could somewhat relate to what you've described so far. I grew up in a non-Christian home, in Indonesia, and didn't become a Christian until my 3rd year in college, in Houston. Left church for more than 10 years and had returned 4 years ago. Transforming Grace by Jerry Bridges was one of the many books that God used.
This video shows the importance of teaching the Bible as truth that makes sense, and is supported by facts, evidence, logic, relationships, rationality and love. Too often churches present the Bible as if it's a fairytale or personal private myth. The depth of Christianity is amazing, the questions explored are profound and the conception of God logical and consistent with the human experience.
My church like most has a 30-40 min teaching of the word of God...in a whole week which is a joke when you think how important it is....life and death for people...I agree that so many churches desperately need a thinking approach..using all our minds. I have been in the "New" churches where visions, voices, experiences...ie. mysticism trumps the word of God....a disaster. I have just resiegned from a " Baptist" church that is actually now a pentecostal Hillsong church now...so common.
Deb Zest4life bummer. Find a historical reformed church, calvanist. Will get deep solid teaching even if you’re not 100% calvanist
you should watch more of seans videos, he is really good at sifting fact from fiction, he's still got it wrong, the bible is all fiction, but at least he's searching for truth wherever it may lead, and he doesn't bullshit like nearly ALL believers do.
Harry Nicholas interesting, I can’t get myself out of being a Christian, too much evidence
gfujigo I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
This is a great example of someone who is trying to fit their answers into a preconceived worldview (Sean, constructed) and someone who is developing their worldview from the ground up (Jon, deconstructed). I loved listening to this and all the honest answers.
I can so deeply relate to Jon's genuine search for answers and I am so grateful that Sean is being so gentle and understanding as always. Thanks and keep searching for answers guyz and keep helping people like me with no other support system than these conversations. 💜
This is a great conversation! Thanks Jon for doing this with Sean. We love you and are praying for you and your family.
Thank you both for having an honest, respectful conversation.
I love the openness and respect that this conversation has. Jon I hope you're doing well and Sean thank you for showing that Christians can be kind and loving.
I'd love to see Jon again. Wonderful conversation Sean.
Anthony Rowden I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
God is not scared of questioning. Jon is honest and lovely. X
When the church gathers in more of a living room like atmosphere, meaningful dialogues like this one can manifest.
We can help one another discover "truth in the inward parts"
Saw the other conversation and wanted more. Thanks for continuing this conversation. Truly remarkable! Jon, thanks for opening your life to us. Great questions.
Sean love your manner of speaking “ thoughtfully and respectfully “ for this is such a witness and a challenge for all of us. From New Hampshire .
Great conversation. Very good.
Keep asking questions. Keep searching. I was raised Christian. Tried other stuff for a season. I’ve studied and read and searched and I did end up with the “Christian” God but it wasn’t 100% through my upbringing or parents or friends. It was directly through God himself.
Keep searching and you’ll end up somewhere. Obviously I’m biased and I hope you end up with Jesus but either way, keep on keeping on!
Honestly I love where he’s at. It’s a much more forward, honest, purposeful place that a lot of people who call themselves “Christians”.
Hi Sean, watching @ 6am from South Africa 🇿🇦. You are such a ‘nice’ kind, sensitive, gracious person. I love the way you speak, minister and reach out to people generally and especially to Jon ❤️
Lynette Thomson I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
PLEASE have more conversations with each other for us. As someone struggling hard with the same issues Jon is, this was SO valuable. Please do more!
Jon: I so appreciate your willingness to have these conversations. You have such an openness and intellectual approach to your thinking. It helps me understand others who have doubts about the faith. Keep it up.
Sean!!! I am your dads age!!! He was a blessing to us in the 70s!
Jane Zouhary I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
This is how these conversations should be had; agree to disagree but continue to be more than civil but Christlike in the love and respect shown to someone who in my opinion is looking to believe again but has hit quite a few obstacles.
Been looking for more channels like yours, youtube algorithms are wierd, seems like you would have popped up in my recommended along time ago. Watched about 10 of your videos in past two days, love the conent and the way you debate, hold your self together. Comes across very gentle and christlike but very informative.
Now that I heard this interview, I think Jon's deconversion is actually a good thing. He totally doesn't understand anything about true Biblical Christianity. It seems like he only knew "churchianity" doctrines, and that's what he decides to leave. And that's great!
And an even better thing is that he says he reads the Bible more now. I hope that journey will eventually lead him to the true Biblical Christ and truly become a real Christian. May God bless him
I agree with you! You can not walk away from christ when you never had Him to begin with. If I understand correctly, he was involved with church activity because he was raised in it but never had that defining moment when he came to a realization of the gravity of our sinful nature in need of a Savior. "Doing church" is dangerous. I am praying for his salvation as I am sure MANY others are too. What a opportunity for him to stop and investigate for himself the grace and mercy of Christ, the need for a Savior and the miracle of the death and resurrection of Christ. It is better to be in the place he is at, investigation faith in Christ and not just doing works in the church body or music ministry, then to continue not really know what they believe or why they believe it. God bless you all!
i love that believers are really quick to diss people who were part of their tribe just a while ago, real christian of you. and the "there's no true scotsman" argument, isn't.
@@HarryNicNicholas I love how ignorant people post ignorant comments and saying "logical fallacy" terms to make them sound more knowledgeable than they actually are.
Pyroverbs205 I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
@@Pyroverbs205 You've illustrated perfectly a "no true scotsman" in your original comment - how is Harry being ignorant?
Great conversation, great witness. Sean, you are an effective apologist in word and in deed - 1 Peter 3:15. Cannot wait to see what the Holy Spirit will do with this conversation and witness to Jon.
John is so humble, I really hope he finds wot he is looking for. I’m kinda in the same position as he is. John ur awesome 😎. All the best.
Sean is amazing too, and I’m glad they met each other🤗
Abbey Tarson I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
I totally relate to Jon. Would love to be able to find a circle of individuals like him, and Sean for that matter, that I could conversate with. Is there a place like that, where it's not dogmatic bashing. Great job guys!
Great conversation and hope that there can be a sequel!
Same here! I would really love a part 2
Nathan Alex I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
Jon, you are now on a true journey of faith. Many people have a faith based in church culture. I have been thru real periods of doubt (a believer 33 yrs). Repentance is key. Read your Bible right the way thru starting at the beginning right to the end. I'll be praying for you 💕
I’m not sure anymore if that is good advice. Finding out many people try to read straight through and get bogged down in the Old Testament and quit reading. Maybe start with John and the New Testament. It is easier to “understand “ without the holy spirit.
I loved this conversation! Very intelligent and very respectful. God bless!
I loved hearing you sing Jon with Hawk Nelson, your songs have encouraged me. I pray you will find what you are searching for.
I love conversations like this. Thank you -- both Sean, and Jon -- for doing this.
Jon great question about music events and church worship. How music moves us.Also the sin issue was very thought provoking! Just want to mention I am a Christian and learning from this ongoing conversation.Wow great response Sean.
Keep doing this guys you are an inspiration - faith is not fake is real it’s growing, I think truth doesn’t shade away from being question and scrutiny - keep doing these you touched life -
C.S. Lewis used as an atheist the problem of pain and suffering as a reason not to believe, until one day he realized if there was no God, there would be no good or evil, and the problem of pain would be of no value. God, he found is the only way to distinguish whether something is good or evil. So, in a moment the argument against God was what convinced him of God! That day he was no longer atheist....he then pursued "which God" was true. He later came to Christ. Good conversation. Praying for you, Jon. Thanks, Sean. ✌😎
Wow what an amazing conversation. I’m a huge confident believer but I think there are so many out there like Jon who are unsure and have a lots of questions. These type of conversations are perfect to help so many. Thank you!
Jon Armstrong I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
SOOO good!!! Jon, you made that such an awesome conversation!! I can relate so much to that!!!
I have also had extreme doubts the last months. The one and only thing that was always certain was for me, that there is someone/-thing that shows his power and beauty in creation. Currently I feel christianity leaves me with a lot of dissatisfaction in some questions. But leaving christianity leaves me with nothing at all EXCEPT that I am definitly missing the truth on who/what the creator is. This is why I stay a christian for now and urge&trust god to help me with my doubts&questions.
Hi Gabriel, doubt gives us room to search and that's a good thing. A lot of growth can come out of this and God definitely wants us to seek. What I gather from what you've said is that you are setting a guard around you and how far you let yourself go. Like Sean's father said to him, please don't let go of God unless you are convinced that whatever else you think is out there is offering you better (paraphrased). Please continue to speak to doctrinally sound people and if you need evidence, then I'm finding that there is evidence for Jesus even outside of the Bible- just from listening to theologians and apologists on UA-cam. I pray for you that through this journey, you find God and His undying love for you; that you find relationship and not religion.
@@omobolanleogunbanke6946 Thanks SOOO much for this loving answer brother!!! I will!
I think what you describe is what Jesus described as this first commandment, to love God with all your mind and heart, as that gives you that ability to check through your doubts.
Jons story is that which is described in the death of Lazarus. The people at the time were far more aware that death was more than the physical one as they understood life to be not the function of their body but the function of your soul as well. Thus the "illiterate" hearing the story of the fall might have still understood this poetic description of puberty for what it meant, the separation of the children from the line of authority thus becoming their own self and thus dying by breaking their link with eternity.
Jons second wave puberty comes with his confrontation with suffering, the problem of the mismatch between ones expectation of reality and ones perceived reality. It laid open the foundation of his faith in a Santa's big brother God that should please arrange reality in accordance with his scripture (not "the scripture" as that is not the Disney version of the reality view we get accustomed to). The blaming of God to allow humans to die is often portrayed in the death of children as we can relate to them as the innocent, a bit like the kitten model to call on our protective instincts. Clearly Christians can not argue that they deserved to die because they were sinners, as they often do, thus deserving God's death sentence. Surely Granny dying is okay as she had her fill and deserves her death sentence anyhow. For crying out loud that those self perceived intellectuals have discovered the problem of death as irreconcilable with the Disney belief. When Jon describes his Uganda moment and asks himself why God allows those kids to become abandoned and die by lack of support and why his pizza boy God does not do something about it and creates that happy ending, he clearly needs explaining that he is the pizza boy and that God has sent him there to do something about it. It appears that this does not cross his mind. After all, God is to serve us, not the other way round.
Better stop here and wish you all the best in getting though your doubts. Keep loving God with all your heart and mind and eventually you will find your way from the tree of self realisation to the tree of life in Jesus. I wish you to realise that Jesus is alive, not as a physical separate entity, but inside you, with all that love for the eternal father.
To live forever
is the art
to learn to live
in jesus heart.
once you get there you realise that you are part of the eternal, that the physical death is only a problem for the selfish, not for God, as you become one again with him, if you repent and wish to be, and like the lost son will be welcome back. After all, when God said: "If you eat from that tree you will certainly die" he did not say as many hear him "if you eat from that tree I will certainly have to kill you as part of my revenge" but he warns his children like every loving father would do of the dangers of the consequences of their actions, e.g. to become mortal if defining yourself in that physical body. However in Jesus on the cross he invites us to eat from that tree of life instead, so that we can become one again.
Awesome conversation!!! Thank you so much, Jon and Sean, for discussing these important topics. I had watched your conversation on Unbelievable, which was incredible, but just now found this conversation. Now I want to see if there is a follow up to this. I hope so!! Please keep having these! This is so helpful for all of us to learn how to have more respectful conversations with those of different beliefs.
Wow, what a thoughtful, respectful conversation. I love that Sean is so kind & encouraging yet doesn’t waiver from what I also believe is the truth of God, Jesus & the Gospel. I love that Jon is seeking to understand. Thank you for sharing this.
I’m curious if there are plans for another conversation soon. I would love to hear both of your thoughts on the fall of Ravi since he was mentioned several times in both conversations.
This was great conversation! I'm looking forward to future conversations between the two of you.
I can see Sean’s deep sorrow for him. I have questioned my faith before as well…
As Ravi Zacharias is famous for saying: "My premise is that the popular aphorism that 'all religions are fundamentally the same and only superficially different' simply is not true. It is more correct to say that all religions are, at best, superficially similar but fundamentally different."
Jason McVety I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
@@billhildebrand5053 this comment confused me completely. Just more of the universe I don't understand
Ben Walker i mean I agree with Ravi. We have a fallen natur, why I memorized Romans don’t know..
The point Jon is making is that most religions have a "good". This is true and I felt Sean could have capitalized on this by possibly saying that this is written on the hearts of men, a TYPE of goodness, the afterglow of God's highest creation still carries His image, but in a twisted way.. It's why the heart always looks for a diety and seeks after goodness that won't be found until Christ and salvation is received. Haha, even after, we still struggle with sin.
Does the fish know it is wet scenario is also at play with westerners questioning their faith..
Me..coming from a non westerner nationality and belief..I see the struggles of many of my western brother n sisters.
It's almost like an immigrant coming from Southeast Asia Africa South America to the USA and seeing the City in the Hill, while the citizens of the City in the Hill is questioning doubting rejecting and bored of life in the City..while us outsiders want to get in because we see what the outside looks like.
God bless
Amazing conversation. Thank you sean!!!
As someone who went through a faith crisis and landed on atheist, I'm offended that Sean called some former believers Jaded. A faith crisis is a whole process. And anger is one very common feeling to experience in a faith crisis. It doesn't mean a person is jaded. And I feel like Jon has more learning to do to understand reality as it is. He's very new and may be very impressionable. I hope he keeps searching for answers that lead to truth and not just what feels right.
He asked all the big questions. Very well done! 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
A massive thumbs up to you both for a great, gracious discussion.
I see Jesus in you Sean as your gentleness and kindness show you aren’t willing to give up on a lost soul.
Worship music was a huge part of my faith and I love hawk nelson!!! I was part of my church worship team as a singer so its a weird experience now when I listen to Christian music I still like the songs but I don't believe the Bible is inspired by God anymore not sure if there is a God or where we came from just know that I want to b the best person I can be and love others. Matt on atheist experience talked about that feeling of the holy spirit during worship music and I can relate I feel the same emotion when I listen to stairway to heaven by led zeppelin.... i think some music affects our emotions... maybe our soul deeply. Epistemology had a big part in my deconstruction....
I know this is a year in the past and not likely to Garner anyone's attention but here I am watching this a year later so who knows who might also watch and also read comments.
I am a pastor's son. Five of six siblings. But I would not say I got my faith from my father, still there is much to be said about how God was always a part of my life.
I may have been baptized when I was eight because my 11 year old brother was also getting baptized and I didn't want to be left out, but my real Faith came when I was a freshman in high school and my older brother was leaving for college. And all my other older siblings had already left for college. My dad was in the military and wasn't living where we were living due to military housing situation.
So I was left to ponder life and God on my own. This isn't to say that I couldn't have reached out to anyone, but I felt the pressure to be sure in a world where everyone else was already sure.
This drove me to apologetics as a 9th grader. Apologetics is not a popular topic as a 9th grader. Throughout high School when others wanted to talk about girls and cars, I wanted to know why the Bible was true if it was true.
Experientially, what I would consider the presence of God was a heavy presence in my life during this time. I understand that experience doesn't equal reality but it does shape my reality.
Memories can be false, feelings manipulated, and experience contrived. But at some point in time we have to accept the possibility that experience is reality.
I have sought wisdom from other faiths and as of yet I have found each of them lacking. The only face that has stood the test of time and scrutiny has been the God of the Bible. I know this isn't going to help a non-believer. "Oh yeah another believer believes the book that he says he believes in." However when I say that I have looked into it know that I have a masters in Divinity, I have read the Bible from front to back, and consumed many books from non-Christian authors denouncing Christianity and have found their arguments lacking.
Thank you for this conversation. I learned a lot. Reflecting your questions to myself too during my own process.
This is fascinating and beautiful. Love the honesty. Good for everyone. God is good. All the time.
Am happy Jon is getting more understanding about the word of God.
15:00 An easy definition of sin that I have gravitated to: Violating the purpose of your existence.
"Sin is changing the purpose of God for our lives and becoming self-serving. This pertains to all matters with which we are entrusted. Whether time, money, words, commitments, relationships, or stewardship, we are given the freedom and responsibility to honor those particulars in a manner that is consistent with our God-given purpose. God’s word given to humanity has been redefined by humanity. His word was specific but we have scrambled it up, thinking we know better."
JesusisGod I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
Sin must be defined by the Bible. It is found in 1 John 3:4. Sin is a transgression of God's law. That is, sin is going outside or over (trans) what God says.
Dr. McDowell - What Mr. Jon Steingard is going through is what many experience. I know for me, when I gave my life to the Lord I was sent on my way with no viable discipleship and I was left confused as to what do I do now. Unfortunately, when I would ask questions, especially when faced with a life crisis trying to figure out real-life application to bible verses, I was frowned upon or told to speak like this, dress this way, and show up to church when the doors open and that would prove my faith. Fast forward at age 62 - I'm in a place where I feel like I'm a disappointment to God because I can't get this walk right. Where does a person like me go? Pray, fast, ask the Lord for help but no billboards nor have I had an encounter walking out of my home where anyone of the faith was willing to sit with me to sort things out so, I'm taking on the attitude of faking it until I make it I guess.
We need to have honest dialogue on the tough questions people may have (What do you do when prayers go unanswered? Why do some struggle even after taking steps towards God? Why is there racial division within the church if we are Jesus followers....where's the love for our fellow man?).
This is valuable topic and how Christian Leaders respond to this and respect or lack thereof for Mr. Steingard's journey can demonstrate the Lord's love.
I know what you mean about asking questions. Just because your questions were frowned upon doesn't mean that they went away. People just wanted to repress them and dismiss them because it made them uncomfortable.
Incredible conversation! Thank you, gentlemen.
Greetings from Cape Town. South Africa
Greeting!
Wow! What a great conversation.... thank you both for sharing.....
That feeling of sin and grace, I totally get that! It's weird to have someone explain it exactly as it feels.
I just want to mention that Jon has an incredible video chat background.
Nice chat. What you said about the people never having heard was the biggest non answer I've ever heard I won't lie.
Let’s pray for Jon.
Meghan Young nah he’s doing fine without it.
This is a very good conversation. And it is also questioning the foundation of my faith in Jesus. Is it based on experience, feelings or on divine revelation? Because if it is not based on Jesus Christ being revealed to me it can not endure. So, praise God, the beginning of my Christian journey was when Jesus was talking to me personally through scripture that a human being was reciting and I knew that in this moment Jesus was talking through this man to me.
John uses the word 'feels' a lot. We base our beliefs on faith and reason. “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams
Absolutely LOVE this! I can't believe how similar this guy's experience is to mine. I no longer believe in Mormonism and I totally feel many if the same things. Even to the point where I don't know whether to call myself Mormon or not! Loved this conversation! Thanks guys!
I grew up mormon as well, after years of approved reading my paradigm changed, as a believer in jesus christ i think religious systems are often the crutch that people never get over needing, i hope you heal fully and experience peace.
Im currently helping to build a facility that helps the leadership from having to be confronted by regular members or questioning ones, the only way forward i believe for them and any other system is to confront the criticisms with integrity and a willingness to accept reality.
@@danvan2683 So you work for the church? This project sounds like it's the opposite of what you think should happen. I'm not following.
@@danvan2683 I totally agree we should confront this stuff with integrity and honesty. Those thoughts are the ones I couldn't live with while teaching Mormonism via callings or to my kids.
@@123mneil im an ironworker, the new high rise im on in salt lake city isolates the leaders and connects to a tunnel system they use to go from place to place without ever being seen, living quarters on the top few floors and a private meeting house under them with rented space below that.
@@123mneil this tunnel system isnt new, they have always traveled from the temple and office building and their apartments using a tunnel, this is just another building connected to it.
I hope you guys do continue this conversation. Id really like to hear more from both sides. I think these are really valuable issues to talk about and explore.
Watching you guys from Cambodia.
Beautiful conversation. Thank you.
I think it’s vital to remember for Christians to realize that belief in the Truth is a grace God imparts to us to believe. Without his grace none of us would be able to believe.
There are many apologetic arguments that make our belief more certain but bottom line it’s a choice to receive the grace of God to believe 🙏
This is such a great conversation!
As a professed recovering dogmatic Christian, I thoroughly enjoyed this! 😃
Your ability to have sensitive conversations with truth is legendary big bro! Great work! Praying for my buddy Jon Steingard he seems like a really nice guy
IsHeARealOne - VadaRealMC I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
This is such a great conversation for me because many times we treat salvation in a legalistic way. It helps me learn how to talk to different people about this salvation that is God's property that he allows us to share in because of Jesus. Thank you so much for the compassion of this conversation.
I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
Jon (or Sean)...I missed the live stream but just watched. Really good conversation. Yes, sounds like lots of book suggestions from listeners and here's another. Jon, I'm sure you're familiar with Rich Mullins. A friend of his, James Smith, many years ago wrote the book "An Arrow Pointing to Heaven", based on the author's personal impressions and further research of Mullins' life and impact. As a musician I'm sure you could relate. It's a tremendous account of how Christ used the brokenness of a life (brokenness we all have) with great impact for greater glory. Hope you get a chance to read if you haven't already. -John H.
John Holbrook I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
Sean is probably the only apologist that is not painful to listen to and although we disagree, he is honest and I respect him. Also I have a couple questions about christians and their beliefs. If anybody is kind enough to let me ask them please do tell.
I have an assistant who helps me with questions that I receive. If you email me through my site, he can help! Seanmcdowell.org
For me, that inner "knowing" when I first came to faith, buttressed by my seeking Him and finding answers in his word is a very solid foundation in my life. Ecclesiastes shows the futility of living a life of folly. The obvious examples of evil and good in todays culture show the battle between good vs evil. Being involved in funerals of friends an loved ones now (I'm in my mid sixties now.) for me offers a very clear contrast between belief and in belief. If we are just a product of random chance, molecules to man doesn't give solid answers in an otherwise meaningless existence. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God... ultimately God promises: If we seek him we'll find him if we search for him with all their heart. I found that a truth statement that means much to me. 😉👍
The older I got the more I realised the bible is true and that the human heart is wicked....I denied it for years but God slowly and graciously showed me that it was true. I started out being close to God as a child in a Christian home and was very kind and good and hated the hypocrisy in the church....how far I fell later....It has taken me or God has chased me all my life to save me...I see it now...I suffered a lot but now I see it was the only way I would ever have changed. He loved me... I now see. I really want to see others saved...the churches have many non believers in them and are not serious about loving God.
Deb Zest4life I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
That was a great conversation
At around 7:50 Jon said he was 18 or 19 when he started to think about his life and God.
Well, I know a guy that at that same age had no thoughts of God that he recalls of. He was finishing high school in the most atheistic environment one can think of. The education and everything around was completely atheist. He studied engineering in a university in the capital of the CCCP. He met his wife in that same university and later got married in a civilian court in that city. When he was 30 they migrated to USA. They raised children.
They both had good employments. In his 40s he was invited to church by his supervisor. Shortly before he turned 50 the veils that blurred his spiritual vision fell off and could shamefully realize that he had ignored or rejected his Creator for so many years (sin) but God had offered him the way to be forgiven and become God’s child through genuine repentance and saving faith in Christ alone. He accepted God’s gracious offer. Praise Adonai!
I have no doubt that this guy is anchored in God. He is just a prodigal. Mark my words....he will come back and have e a great testimony that will help so many prodigals come back to the father.
Can't wait to see and hear His testimony. I pray!
Steingard's sincere/honest/heartfelt questions shows how important apologetics training is for professing Christians. Because he brings up basic and important questions that a Christian should have already asked and had answers to before leaving adolescence, and "leaving the faith" in adulthood. Unfortunately, Steingard may never have been regenerate. I'm glad and applaud Steingard is NOW asking these types of questions. But he should have been asking them in his Christian youth. A nominal and cultural Christianity isn't real faith. Hopefully he eventually comes to saving faith for the first time or returns to a sincere faith that he temporarily lost. As a Calvinist I believe in the perseverance of the saints. But even in Calvinism, there's the acknowledgement that it's possible that a true believer could backslide for a time before returning to the faith. Since in Calvinism regeneration cannot be lost. Though, some non-Calvinists Christians believe salvation and regeneration can be lost. Either only once, or multiple times.
I like to wonder if people would ever convert if they knew everything the Calvinists believe up front
BibleLosophR I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
I love Jung and I am a Christian and had the same thoughts about the shadow incorporation.
If Christianity is done properly then it would do this naturally by forcing an awareness of your own evil.
Oh my goodness!!! Sean at 46:53 - 47:05 'We can't play off what we have heard just because some people have not heard ' 💥💥💥🔥
mrsabe4 I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
@@billhildebrand5053 Awesome!
I would say that the argument that people see God in nature does not point to seeing Jesus in nature. If acceptance of God, in the generic, is salvific, then “all roads lead to God” and the validity of other faiths is an obvious conclusion
That was nothing more than a deflection of the actual argument being presented
Jurgen Rembold I have heard forever that people see God in the world. I’ve never heard people see Jesus. So my point remains
Watching from south central Wisconsin
Awesome!
Wait... why didn't I connect the dots that you are the son of one of my favorite authors.. .?😅 I met your dad a few years ago in Mexico, you both have been huge blessings in my life.
59:57. Jon fully exposes the apologetical enterprise. It's aimed at us as a branding exercise but intended to retain believers. And the funny thing is how many look at the apologetical evidence and find it comes well short. Granted it does help many stay, no doubt. However it shows what it's really all about.
I didn't intend to listen to the whole video but ended up doing so, I listened to your last conversation on unbelievable channel, keep up the good work, for me he's not completely open anymore, I hear the voice of Barth and Matt D in his argument still I appreciate his willingness
Simon Peraboh don’t voice your doubts...remember the Spirit works...sowing..
Simon Peraboh I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
@@billhildebrand5053 I'm trying to make sense of everything you're saying
Simon Peraboh I believe the Word of God works slowly but surely. If we pray as if we know what will happen then it’s doubting our faith, rather than doubting our doubts...
His willingness is clear...
I have really enjoyed the conversations you and Jon have had in these two videos. Your actual communication without discord has been refreshing. It seems that everything in our lives today is bathed in conflict. Thank you both.
Watching from Burien, south of Seattle.
Thanks so much for the thoughtful conversation you two!
Aidan Gillespie I memorized the 16 chapters of Romans in 16 days when I was 16 years of age, in 1968 while driving a John Deer Tractor around the field.
I very much wish I could have a conversation with Sean Mcdowell.
Rob From Daytona Beach, Florida!