@@thuslyandfurthermoreyou know I initially meant compressed but due that poor word choice, i may have revealed something more depressing, but more accurate than intended lmao
about Our Life: i am a picky eater. when planning our wedding (in the dlc), i was like "whatever" for catering and cove called me out and said "absolutely not you are a picky eater and we are having food you can eat at your own dang wedding" and i actually had to take a break from the game and just cry. the wish fulfillment is real, and you (yes, you) deserve genuine care.
Our Life went so hard and above and beyond with the story and interactions that I had to take breaks in between before I got myself way too invested lol
I like how you brought up the point that most DDLC players have never played a dating sim or even read a visual novel before playing DDLC. This is pretty relevant now with games like Class of '09 that market themselves as an 'anti-visual novel' and 'rejection sim' when the creator also admitted to not having played any vns or dating sims before. The creator voices a disdain towards vns and dating sims without even playing one
Love in video games sucks ? What do you mean ? Just bombard your prospective partner with gifts to fill up the "love bar" until they sleep with you. Seems pretty realistic to me.
I actually love it when a game features love and romance. It's honestly a selling point to me, that lets me get more invested in a story and characters. I wish more games would actually delve into romance, and that fewer romances would basically just "end" the moment you get intimate with your romantic partner. Its like game developers forget that relationships exist past sex.
Sort of a broader thing with media, like compare how many stories are about getting into a relationship versus how many are about keeping one going. It's not like there aren't any, but the asymmetry is wild considering how much dramatic potential exists between and within people who have established bonds.
I would recommend playing Making Lovers. It has the first and second game. The first one is building a relation, the second is in the relation. It has pc port
I wouldn't be surprised if many folks' priorities in BG3 was getting a happy end with their chosen waifu, or husbando, and I'm one of them. Sure other things mattered too, but as long as that was achieved, compromises could be made. Cause achieving it usually already involves a bunch of other stuff, the adventure & getting to know each other, and surviving clutch encounters as you have each other's back. How could searching for your "ideal partner" on a dating app ever match that?
you might want to check out Love Plus then if you want to see a game feature romance where the relationship doesn't end after the characters get together, I'm not saying it's a perfect game, since I'm not really a fan of how it simplified Tokimemo's basic gameplay loop, but I do think it's really interesting how most of your time in the game is spent after you and one of the girls get together and hanging out with them when you're actually dating
"I think we can all agree that pc-98 pixelart is the peak of artistic aesthetic, this is where we peaked as a species and it's all been downhill since then." This is the most true thing I've ever heard
Interesting documentary! As someone who's published Japanese games professionally in the past, I enjoyed seeing a historical overview of a genre I have less experience with. I found myself laughing really hard as you tunnel-visioned on "the best girl" in some games, and ended up making mistakes and liking the game less because you tried too hard. Maybe an unintended life lesson by the devs ^_^; I laughed really hard at the Kanon "Uguuh" montage. Anyone that's ever seen the anime will absolutely remember this (infamous?) aspect of the characterization, and I was just waiting (and hoping) that this aspect would be addressed in an amusing montage, lol. I also enjoyed your very relatable rage at irritating game mechanics, and the transition to the "moe" anime style in the early 2000s. I agree, it's an absolute crime vintage anime art styles were completely abandoned for moe, although thankfully more diverse styles seem to be returning more recently. As far as the primary question you raised in the video, "Why are games centered around romantic themes not more popular?" I have several theories. As you mentioned, games have a strong wish fulfillment aspect to them. Historically, many games have been centered around action, like being able to experience the thrill of defeating enemies or surviving a life threatening situation in a horror game. However, although it's fun to experience these things vicariously, most people do not want to *actually* experience war, violence, or be in real danger. Romance is different however. Being in love is a positive, normal thing and people *do* actually want to experience romance happening to them in real life. If you play a game, have an amazing romantic relationship with a character, and really connect with them, you might actually want that relationship to continue, because being in a happy relationship would be a positive life change. Beyond wish fulfillment, you might want that relationship to actually continue and be real. However, at the end of the day, the game cannot actually love you, and when you turn the console off you are still alone in the end. The love isn't real and has a finite story end point. It might have the opposite effect of the escapism that was intended, and the ending of a romantic game might feel sad or bittersweet instead. While in an action game, you of course don't want those events to actually happen, so you can be satisfied with the games conclusion and actually enjoy your escapism, then simply move on. Exploring the idea of escapism further, most people could never be an action hero, but many people are able to experience romance for themselves. They don't need a game to experience romance because they can actually be in a relationship or just go out and date for real. Paradoxically, playing a dating sim may actively make your chance of being in a real relationship lower, because the time you spent playing the game took time away that you could be putting yourself out in social situations where you could potentially meet someone. I think this is a big part of where the stigma around playing dating sims comes from. There is also the concept of the "lack of believability" in romance games because a lot of them just devolve into saying the right things over and over to build up affection points until the character you want falls in love with you. Real life doesn't work that way, so it feels cheap, unrealistic, and too easy. However, trying to make romantic attraction more believable would make the game a lot less fun, because in reality most people will not be attracted to you, and will never be attracted to you no matter what choices you make. Player agency is the core mechanic of most video games, so making a dating sim more realistic by making other characters permanently disinterested in you for reasons outside your control would also make that game profoundly un-fun. It's a catch 22, it feels unsatisfying because you can easily obtain it, but if it's unattainable and therefore more desirable, you just feel bad. Maybe that could be an interesting (if mean-spirited) dating sim deconstruction. You could set up a stereotypical dating sim premise with hypothetically available characters, but no matter what you do in the game, none of them will actually date you. Your comment on the agency of most romantic partners in dating games was interesting. A crucial part of a romance is the deliberate choice to be together, which game characters currently cannot replicate. They feel like a "given", because you know they will always date you, no matter what, as long as you make the correct choices. But in reality, love is not that safe because the other person reciprocating your feelings is not guaranteed, and even if they do, it is also not guaranteed to last. Basically, there are a lot of complicated aspects of relationships and desire that are really hard to simulate in a game. Gamify-ing them makes them unsatisfying, and accurately simulating them would probably be depressing.
I especially the point you made in the middle. Romance in a game can be too real. Kind of like being shown a wonderful slice of cake. The most beautiful one you've ever seen, except that it is made out of plastic. You haven't had a cake in years and that plastic depiction just reminded you how nice it would be if it was real.
Most points you make about romance games can be applied to other games though. People play games to be the hero who saves the world, kills the big bad, or just explores the world. They want to genuinely, immersively experience that, but without all the actual risks that come with it (permanent death, injuries, etc), same with romance games, players want the good stuff, without the real trauma of being heart broken, being made fun of. Good games without romance also leave you with a bittersweet feeling, like you're a hero who saved the world where everybody loves you and you farmed a lot of money? Time to go back to the normal insignificant poor life. Playing mmos or action rpgs, where you're farming gear and improving your character, when you could improve yourself in real life instead? People don't really have a problem with it. Why do they when it comes to romance? It's not like romance is more important than financial stability/physical health/education. People also don't have a problem with the fact that it takes 30 hours and no prior experience to save the world in a video game, or become a millionaire by farming enemies for 30 minutes. Suspension of disbelief works in all the other unrealistic cases, why would it not for romance, provided it's well written? I think that it mostly comes down to insecurities, shame, stigma. You wouldn't want your grandma catch you playing something like this, right? Everything else is a coping mechanism for why you'd avoid playing it, even if deep down you'd actually want that experience. It's wish fulfillment like any other.
What I believe to be a major issue is that unlike many other things games have been able to portray in an accurate/satisfying way, romance is incredibly hard to execute mechanically, as is anything that is this directly tied to human emotions. And in this case, it is multiple humans trying to work together, which makes things very awkward very fast. Most people can't understand each other's or their own emotions effectively, so trying to quantify and "code" that in a way that the chaotic engine of unpredictability that is the average player isn't going to break in several ways you could never have imagined in your life.
@@inquisitorbenediktanders3142 I agree, that is a good point too. Trying to quantify a human emotion as a game mechanic (which players can exploit) does cheapen it somewhat in this case.
Just stop playing games for wish fulfillment. Games are made by people, and usually, they want to say something. Try get the message of the game and stop focusing on egoistical wishes..... Yeah they not real, but who cares, they still exist in their limited capacity. If they wouldn't, then you would not hear or see them. Stop stigmatization of the dating genre, I hate romance (the wish fulfillment aspect), yet I love characters (the narrative and message).
Atleast now a lot of the recent popular anime are having some good or unique artstyles. There's Great Pretender, Cyberpunk Edgerunners, MAPPA's animes, Elusive Samurai, Apothecary Diaries and many other.
I have to comment this so it's out there, but actually plenty of people play dating sims and it's not for wish fulfillment. I have friends that specifically don't want any kind of romance in their lives and I think the reason for why visual novels do have a lot of replayability is because what people are interested in is the depth of story and character study. Also they have favorite characters and routes, but they don't see themselves in the player character. I think this is also why people should give all types of dating sims a chance even if your gender isn't the target demographic!
About DDLC and that Westerners wouldn't know what it's parodying: I never sought out information about dating sims prior to seeing DDLC, but the general idea of japanese dating sims was out there, and mostly in the "oh those crazy japanese" context. If you were online enough to find DDLC, you knew the gist of what it was parodying. There may have been some subtle references I missed, but I knew generally what I was dealing with. It's kinda like how I saw the first Austin Powers as a kid before I had watched any actual James Bond movies, and it made enough sense from the bits and pieces I had absorbed up until then.
Yeah, that was an interesting part of the video because I personally never realized it was that new of a concept to the west. As someone who had prior experience with the genre after Katawa Shoujo introduced it to me, I'm probably in the minority of people for whom the deconstruction aspect of DDLC actually hit it's intended mark.
"the great moe massacre of 1999" has got to be one of the best names in all of anime history. ive been listening to this all day throughout my commute, amazing video as always and thank you for posting this masterpiece!!! i love your videos so much
"I'm not saying I'd prefer the cage; I'd never say that. But I think I preferred the cage." I don't mean to alarm you, but I think Diamond Route may have awakened something in you.
Huge respect for the channel that continously tackles time-consuming, deep topics that no one else covers. This channel is inspiring in more ways than one.
Our Life: Together and Always is a really really well done western otome. as an introverted anxious human, romance in games has always just been something cozy to enjoy. 10/10 recommend
It's indeed not an otome and was never marketed as much. LIs can fall for MC no matter the pronounce you chose. MC can also transition in mid-game, which would never be allowed in an otome title.
Slay the Princess works remarkably well because of its small development team of a couple. Its creators also emerging out of Western Internet culture makes a more digestable experience for people not into prototypical dating sims. It was one best games I played last year due to its protryal of romance.
@@BrandonCroy To the Moon should have never been a game. If they couldn't get the funding to make it a TV series where it would have been at it's best, then it should have just been a book.
Wake up babe, NeverKnowsBest just released a gargantuan video essay on his current hyperfixation and this time it's all about Romance in games, so break out the wine.
I rushed to watch this as fast as possible when I saw Hatoful as part of the thumbnail and as a HUGE otome enjoyer and HB defender I'm really glad you played the full game. There's way too many people on YT that talk about it like they know the game well when it's obvious they never played up to Shuu's route, let alone reaching Hurtful Boyfriend. Funnily enough Amnesia: Memories WAS my first otome game, and like you said, there are certainly better ones, however for me and a lot of girls it was just good enough to explore the genre further. And again like you said there's so much variety in setting and sub-genres that I really do believe there's something for everyone, so long as you are also a fan of visual novels, because meaningful stat raising/dating sim elements are very rare. Watching the rest of the video, I recalled that in the last Nintendo Direct it showcased yet ANOTHER Western parody dating sim called Date Everything where you get to romance household objects, meanwhile Nintendo Japan's Direct on the same day announced a Switch port of the original Tokimeki Memorial. I saw a Tweet where someone said, essentially (because I can't remember verbatim) "This really shows the difference between Japan and the West. In Japan these games are treated with respect and love, but they're still played up just for laughs in the West." So I really appreciate how you highlighted this in your video. P.S. I just want to say, there's a series of otome games called Diabolik Lovers where EVERY love interest is an even more insane, problematic Toma, and they're all vampires that routinely suck the heroine's blood without consent and physically and verbally abuse the hell out of her, and yet in the end the protag falls in love with the guy of your choosing. It sounds insane, but the series has EIGHT games, a 2-season anime adaptation, 3 stage plays, and a ton of drama CDs. It's extremely popular.
Fellow hatoful fan! Huge agree, way too many UA-camrs act like they know what hatoful is all about on one or two routes alone. I’ve been introducing some friends to the game by all huddling around my laptop and reading aloud and they’re enjoying it a lot! They’re halfway through hurtful route,,, very exciting. Gonna make them play holiday star too, I need to see their reactions to hitorigate! I’m working on a cosplay. Making the head jar for it. The bird brainrot is taking over!
If we're talking about otome game fans and their questionable taste in men I think we should also mention Steam Prison having to make the antagonist who abuses and horribly tortures the protagonist multiple times in the game a romance option in the sequel because he was so overwhelmingly popular. Just your average day in the otome game world
I loved Our Life because it let me play as an autistic kid that I was - bad at reading emotions, coming off as unemotional and bad at social interaction, having sensory issues - and not be met with ostracisation and disgust. And I think that’s the target demographic; neurodivergent people with childhood trauma experiencing acceptance.
No exaggeration, this is the best video essay ive ever watched. Throughout my life, I've wanted to understand the extent of romance in games because it is such a meaningful human connection. I was a huge fan of romance and fairytales as a young girl, but I also loved the exploratory format of video games. I wanted to understand how romance and love develops or fails, and wanted to examine the turning point of when it becomes profound, or why two characters choose each other. However I struggled to find games that scratched the surface ALL my life. They seriously always sidestep it in western games! I got into japanese games because of the minor romance in jrpgs and visual novels. Even that got frustrating because it can be repetitive and tropey. I also fell into shipping when the romantic content wasn't compelling or explored enough and I wanted to imagine a romantic dynamic more...Such a struggle!! Thanks for making such an in-depth look into this! It really satisfied my autistic girl heart 😍🩷💜
Great video as always, i just want to add one thing. I believe the main reason behind the stigma around playing romance games is that, unlike most other forms of wish fulfillment, the romance game is simulating something that is generally seen as achievable for anyone, and common enough to be considered easy and even expected. Other forms of wish fulfillment simulate impossible or extremely difficult things, outside of the reasonably expected capabilities of the Audience, so its far less common to criticize someone for indulging in them. Romantic simulation is seen as the alternative used by those who have failed at something that should be possible for anyone.
Maybe it's better to compare romance games to genres such as fishing simulators or truck driving simulators: very accessible real-life activities that still require a certain investment in time and money. The electronic versions still have their own obvious advantages, and even people who do those things regularly in real life often play the games too. From that angle the stigma makes very little sense.
@@tarnetskygge I agree that the comparison is closer with those games, but I disagree with your conclusion. Firstly there is some stigma with those kinds of games, a lot less than with romance of course, but unironic enjoyment of truck simulator and games like it will result in second looks and some amount of judgement from the general population and even some gamers. Second, and more importantly, those games simulate achievable hobbies not expected life goals (basically, we expect everyone to get a romantic partner in life, not necessarily to have hobbies), so the effect is less pronounced, not unlike how people who are very into physical trainsets are also frequently mocked about it.
And the worst part is that it is not true to begin with. Humans are descended from approximately 80% of the female population... to around 40% of men. While some men obviously get into a relationship without children, it nonetheless gets the point across that _far_ from all, or possibly the _majority_ of men, get romance. A lot of the statistics on modern loneliness and relationship/s€× distribution look like a return towards the pre-late 19th and especially mid-20th century flattening of the curve corresponding to the explosive rise of a large middle class. Contrary to popular imagination and outdated expectations about life goals, relationships are actually a _massive_ deal with a lot of challenges and obstacles to getting into and maintaining and includes many factors outside of an individual person's control.
Mostly guys because people keep forgetting your not taught normal life things. Your expected to just learn. Your born a babe into this world blind, weak and dumb. You absorb knowledge and sense things around yoh quickly or die. Most people just aren't taught how to sort this info and think so they come up with things themselves till they are like 1 where your taught more how to live in society. Maybe taught wrong or right base on your own parents and the like. Nevermind as well that the most normal thing a young boy is going to want to know is how to talk to girls when he becomes interested in them because of hormones when most of his life he was taught not to treat them like another person but as a "girl". Something special and different from them. Leading to further issues. Made worse by society telling a young boy to man up very early on as well. Leading to a man who doesn't have the capacity to talk to a woman who is now far removed from him socially and personality wise. Making a dating SIM actually pretty reasonable thing for a boy to want to play.
@@tarnetskygge Nope. Your not talking. Your just doing something. Talking has way more interactions that could occur for those simulation games to not be close to the same thing. They often have no sense of interaction. Just acting as a task to do like any other game. So much so they show up as mini games in other games and don't feel shallow but fun departure. Meanwhile as the video length and multiple points of this essay shows that isn't the case with romance as an option in games. Even when made the focus it still pales in comparison to reality do to computers not having the processing power for it.
"It was as I was aggressively bullying various boys into liking me through tactical handholding that I did wonder if some of the wish fulfillment of this game is as much having a boyfriend as it is having a pet" He's figured us out scatter
A few people in the comment sections say that romance in games makes them feel lonely at times, and... it's not necessarily a bad thing To feel alone means romance in video games affected us and that's what art does to people, in this i agree with NKB's point that games should be allowed to make us feel things even if they're not "fun"! I remember Katawa Shoujo pulled me out of a very depressing time in my life but only after making me question a lot of things regarding why we live despite our flaws and approach relationships in the first place; it's for support and love. BOY did KS really tackle those topics with a painfully sincere approach, hit 14yo me like a sledgehammer but it's one of my most memorable gaming moments 13 years later because it truly affected how i've lived my life since
Honestly, this is similar to how Persona 5 Royal has affected me when I started playing it a couple months ago, though not just when it comes to romance but relationships in general. It made me realize I was a bit *too* invested in these characters, in finding more about them and spending time with them. Eventually I reached a point where I was a bit too bothered by this. The feeling kind of snuck up on me, but it was essentially what you've named - loneliness. I had to think it through a bit, and now I have decided to stop playing not only Persona, but video games in general, at least for a while. This experience has helped me realize how much I've used these games as a way to fill a deep well of loneliness in my heart for many, many years, since I couldn't find any support in my own family. For now, I'm trying to work on other objectives I have for myself, some of which happen to be quite a bit more social, and I'll see if I can't get a more fulfilling social life before I get back to gaming. It's not that I despise or hate the hobby in any way. Games have given me extremely valuable life lessons and have even had very practical uses, such as helping me learn English (I'm Brazilian) or being in contact with creative writing, good or bad. Not to mention, of course, the simple joy they've given me. The only thing that's changed is that now I realize just how much of a crutch the hobby has also been, to the point that it might've hindered some areas of my life. And since I want that to change, I'll give this a shot, to be brave enough to step past them for a while. Hopefully when I get back to P5, I'll have a proper social circle of confidants of my own, and I'll be able to get through the game more painlessly. I already miss getting lost in these stories, but I'm still moving on. Wish me luck!
I was listening to this at work and I GASPED so loud when you brought up our life beginning and always. That game means so much to me, I loved it so much. It got me through hard times in my life, and I cried MANY times while playing it. I wrote a review for it on steam (only game review I've ever written) just detailing how much it meant to me and how I adore it. It felt like it filled a hole in my heart, nurtured me in ways I can't explain. It just... Was such a good game to me and meant so much. I can understand why it didn't resonate with you like it did for me though. This was a great video all around!
Thanks for this comment and for sharing so sincerely. I’ve never heard of that game before, and it seems quite different to my usual fare, but I’ll check it out based on your heartfelt recommendation.
Honestly, I freaking love that you went and ACTUALLY PLAYED a lot of dating sims and VNs instead of making a mild video talking about how subversive DDLC is like so many other people who aren't super familiar with the genre, and also being aware of You and Me and Her in general existing. Even if you weren't huge on any of these games I respect the effort.
As someone who primarily interacts with the otome community, your opinion on Toma seems decently common with people that arent specifically into whats going on in his route lmaoooo
Didn't Toma reach spot 1 in the favorite char poll though? Ig that could still align with what you are saying. Otome plots do be wild though. And ngl that is at least one reason I play them even if what happened here was certainly not for me.
@michimatsch5862 then i was wrong and the spaces ive been in dont represent the majority which is fine, i havent gotten around to reading amnesia so im not actively looking for stuff about him so this mostly just came from the people im around and the posts ive seen about him all talking about him in a decently negative light which easily could just be me mostly interacting with a specific type of person lmao
@@michimatsch5862 Toma is very popular with japanese audiences. But whether the English speaking audience is the same... I don't know. The people who dislike him could be a vocal minority in the west or it may not🤔
@@rinamohn1807 we moralize our entertainment a lot because of how the Hays Code and Satanic Panic etc. became a part of our socialization and how we consume media. Other audiences around the world might not. I don't think it's that surprising that we would have a different opinion on him. Japanese audiences might engage with him through less of a moral barrier. "If I like this then I'm a bad person" overwhelmingly strikes me as a western idea, and we're a bit irony poisoned.
A lot of comments here seem to ignore the most interesting point of the video: How could games portray romance in a way that plays to the strengths of the medium? I see so many bringing up JRPGs with canonical pairings but, as the video quite explicitly discussed, the linear nature and established characterization of the main protagonist disallows any kind of personal expression from the player. To put it simply, You never have a say in the relationship the playable protagonist is in despite playing AS the playable protagonist. Borrowing from the video, Games have authentically portrayed violence in war, ethical dilemmas, and even familial love. Not just through story, but GAMEPLAY. Sure enough then, why couldn’t it also portray romantic love the same way?
It's difficult to translate genuine romance into game mechanics. Romance can't be easily distilled into simple inputs and outputs like X leads to Y, nor does romance lend itself to predictable outcomes, you can do the optimal strategy but it still can fail in IRL romance, how do you make that a fun game mechanic without boiling it down to percentage chances and RNG luck? How do you make a genuine romantic mood into game mechanics without devolving to hearts on the screen and a red filter? It's just tough to put into practice.
It has nothing to do with gaming, it’s just misandry. Hating men for being human and having feelings is as old as time. Both women and men participate in tearing men down for having any traits which resemble femininity. By which I mean specifically anything soft or vulnerable. It is directly reflected in male dating culture, just enjoying a women’s company without getting her into bed is seen as weak or pathetic. Of course most men are more romantic than women, the scientific literature confirms this we are as a sex more loyal to partners, this is genetic, a man needs the ability to sacrifice himself for a woman but a woman needs to be able to switch to whatever partner will protect or provide for them. However this fact is considered so offensive that it is purged and mocked anytime you suggest women aren’t as sentimental and invested as men. So n my opinion this entire video arguing for men not being ok with playing dating sims is ridiculous, all men put romance before anything else. Our instinct to find a mate if far stronger than to fight, it’s just that the feminist driven culture is totally anchored in the lie that only women have a soft side and so men need to be controlled and diminished. Hence replacing traditional relationships with alternative ones, it’s another way of just removing romance from men. I would argue that the romance in uncharted 4 was pretty beautiful even if it was small. There is no stigma around romance in video games there is a stigma with anything straight male being humanized.
This idea of how to use the unique characteristics of the video game medium when it comes to romance is part of why Disco Elysium was so exciting. A game system that prioritizes personality traits and affects your relationships with others and who and how you can interact with them is something that gave so much life and substance to even the most throw away of characters. That could be invaluable to the romance genre.
It would but it wouldn't be done well by a Western dev. Especially since Disco's dev team had their shit stolen because of two jackass devs and then got fucked over by being bought out and disposed of. Especially since most people don't even get Disco's writing to begin which is the problem.
@@robeseller6530 If I had to guess, I would say that they're probably talking about how a common takeaway from Disco Elysium is that it criticizes "all political ideologies equally", when in reality, the communist "path" is written largely as idealistic and lofty, with a bunch of in-fighting about how communists spend a lot of time fighting more with other communists than actually getting anything done, but is still ultimately portrayed as "good" in that the folks you talk to have true hope and belief in the system. None of the other political faction questlines end with the slightly hopeful note that the communism quest does, but a lot of people do seem to overlook this and assume that it is a politically neutral game.
It's blindingly obvious that Dream Daddy was a game made/written by a bunch of straight guys who didn't want to write/show any gay romance between 2 adult men, to be played by a bunch of straight people so they can look at the gay men, but not actually have to see any gross gay romance between 2 adult men.
@@------........................ normally i'd agree but getting Gale to pick the choice you want him to is stupidly difficult because of how many innocuous decisions matter and if you're trying to go for the middle ground "leave the crown but don't apologise to Mystra" you might as well give up because treading that line is nigh impossible without looking up which options to pick. Hell the game straight up lies to you towards the end by giving you the option to pass a very high persuasion check to get Gale to pivot last minute to the opposite choice, except it s broken and does absolutely nothing.
@@CosmicToad5000That dice rolls flags are completely broken. r/galemancers has an in depth guide if you are interested in not having to have him apologize to Mystra, but remain human.
@@CosmicToad5000I left the crown and married gale with ease and no guide. I don’t think I apologized to mystra either but I can’t remember, it doesn’t sound like something I’d do
Speaking from my experience writing for videogames a lot of game developers are reluctant to include romance for two reasons: Literal lack of personal experience that makes them incapable of presenting romance realistically. Unwillingness to do it for political reasons or awkwardness. I have worked in games were relationships got axed to avoid stepping on imaginary eggshells and to "avoid alienating the audience."
they cant put any type of couple even slightly less than vanilla in games because if they do the straights will scream and kick their feet until it never happens again.
@@zhalosc you realize straight/gay isn't a personality trait? Also vanilla can mean so many things so I doubt anyone has any idea what exactly you meant.
@@zhaloscthere is literally a game in this video where the PC gets locked in a cage and abused yet "the straights"™ don't care. Stop blaming straight ppl for your problems.
@@zhalosc BG3 invalides everything you wrote. Most players have a problem with non straight stuff only when it's spotlighted and when the game tries to force you into it. BG3 also had this problem at the beginning where characters would come on to you at a much lower threshold of approval than intended, resulting in awkward experiences where characters you had no real interest in, came on to you and it felt awkward having to reject them all.
The main appeal of Hatoful Boyfriend was the meta-narrative and how completely bonkers the endings are. If you fail to form a meaningful pigeon relationship, you get murdered by the Bird Gestapo, who go on a vicious pogrom to eliminate the last remnants of humankind.
@Coopersville no he's a very analytical reviewer that talks about games in extremely deep lengths, quite possibly the greatest video essayist on the platform
I really enjoy your content. You allow yourself to explore topics that are somewhat uncomfortable and not very sexy or marketable, and they're much more interesting and thought provoking because of it.
As a MASSIVE hatoful boyfriend fan, I’m glad you gave it a shot! Not everyone is going to be interested in the admittedly poorly paced romance routes, but I definitely did! I find the game most fun when you play with friends and read aloud 😊 I find the true route to be super engaging and thrilling and the emotions very hard-hitting! However, the sequel may be even better? Holiday star fills in lore gaps you hadn’t thought of before and dives deeper into the characters in fun ways! It isn’t perfect either, but overall, the hatoful series basically hijacked my brain as soon as I first watched a playthrough! If anyone seemed kinda interested, I definitely recommend they check it out!
Really great video. I'd never played a single romance game in my life, other than Doki Doki Literature Club, which, as discussed in the video, is not a romance videogame. The one that peaked my interest was Amagami, I thought the character designs looked really good, but I went for Katawa Shoujo instead, probably because it's absurd premise could still mask it for irony, still all to concerned with the stigma around these games. After finishing my first route I was positively delighted, it was really good experience and opened my eyes to the world of visual novels. There's a small something I'd like to ask of anyone that plays this game: Don't hide it. I know that sounds hard, with the stigma and all, and I'm not saying you should talk to everyone about it or at all, but I do mean don't buy it on private settings or hide the activity, since it further prolongs the stigma. At first I was guilty of this, I set my steam status to disconnected whenever I played it for this reason, but eventually after seeing how well done these games really are and how sad it is that they don't get recognized, I decided to just play it openly, leaving a review while I'm at it. I'll admit I was asked about it, with a glance that meant "Why are you even playing this?" but I simply said "Why wouldn't I? The story is great." And that's where I realized we really just have this stigma for no particular reason most of the time, we only think of the negative qualities of the genre when asked about it. It's the sort of thing where it's not weird if you don't make it weird, and I think that's valuable. I will playing some other visual novels, romance or otherwise (granted I'm interested in the premise, erogames are still not for me) but I will be doing it openly, and hopefully one day, people won't feel ashamed to buy these games or to discuss them for these emotions are valuable, and the medium is more than capable of delivering them if you let it.
Romance in video games have two massive hurdles from my perspective (someone who loves romance in media): 1. As opposed to most other types of media, video games are unique in making the protagonist feel instinctively like "you". When you play a game, whether it be blank-slate Skyrim or roleplay Uncharted, when you refer to the protagonist's actions to another person you almost always say "I did x and then I did y". Romance, as a fictional genre, tends to be more critically successful when it divorces the audience from the two main characters. (Of course, you can find self-inserts and blank-slate protagonists aplenty, but compare Titanic to Twilight in critical reception, even though they are similar in commercial success, and truely second person fiction y/n romance vs most traditionally published fiction if you are someone who wants to argue about whether Twilight is better than Titanic.) 2. There are actually three parts to a romance - the main character, the love interest, and their dynamic. In dating sims all too often there are two out of three missing - the protagonist is a blank slate AND the dynamic is bland because the gameplay requires this person to play off of lackluster responses and match inputs like gifts or mini games with corresponding increases in affection. This leaves everything feeling like someone monologue at you, like you said. If you could have different rapports with people, that would immediately change everything. This is sometimes done but it usually feels accidental - sometimes I get into a teasing back and forth with love interests because I decide halfway through a play session that I no longer want to date them but can't bring myself to cold-heartedly end the relationship. As someone who in real life and fiction finds that the truest indicator of romance is how two people interact in different settings, this is a constant disappointment. Let me playfully tease someone and accidentally cross a line in a game! Let me try to get serious with someone and have them respond with a too-light comment that brushes me off! And let that be the actual story and not just jarring tonal issues with the writing!
It's a shame that Western game developers never took romance seriously as a genre, which allowed the Japanese market to define it (for better and worse). For example, I find Japanese fiction hyper-focuses on initial relationship milestones (and first-love/high-school relationships), whether it's the big confession, the couple's first kiss or what-have-you. From the games you showed off, Uncharted is one of the only ones that really looked at some of the struggles that happen with an established, romantic, adult relationship - and romance isn't even remotely the series' primary focus. I'm not dissing Japanese games, mind you (I've played a lot of them), but more ideas and variety is always better.
Defender Of The Crown (1986), a strategy game, had a romance scene if you rescued a maiden (one from several random options) from a castle as part of a mini-game. This was part of developer Cinemaware's attempt to make games more "cinematic".
Dragons dogma 1 had that, poorly written and forced where you're character slept with the princess regardless of wether or not you wanted a romance, lots of female players were bothered. Though you can just avoid the quest
@@BrightLord1823 a similar thing happened to me in the last DLC from neverwinter nights. The game forced a romance with the paladin lady in the ending slides even though I rejected every romance option with her, I didn't check but maybe unless you antagonize her you will always get the romance end with her if you treat her nice
@@BrightLord1823 She was willingly my pick in my first playthrough and I was _still_ bothered by that. Definitely one of the game's more jank moments.
@@NevisYsbryd yeah I personally picked Madeline for my romance, it's hilarious how she goes "I think we're meant to be together... You'll have not but the finest wares here"
It's true that LGBTQ+ dating games were sidelined in Japan, but it should be mentioned that Nitroplus/Nitro+CHiRAL has been making BL visual novels since the early 2000s. They've had a popular release during most of the big shifts mentioned in the video (2005, 2012, and 2021 in particular). Their games might not have been as widely played as straight ones (and it's debatable whether they're closer to otome games), but they have a huge cult following! Both LGBTQ+ and BL romance games are probably in a renaissance rn, there are a lot of weird and interesting games being made!
!! I was just about to say this, it feels like a massive oversight to not mention BL or GL games at all and I kinda hate that Dream Daddy is the face of LGBT dating sims in this video lol
I think people not being very familiar with dating sims and visual novels is one of the reasons why DDLC became so popular. They were known enough for people to understand generally what it was parodying, but they weren't big enough that that kind of deconstruction was old news to them.
As a general rule, deconstructions of a genre tend to be most popular among people unfamiliar with the genre its deconstructing. The reason for that is pretty easy to intuit.... tropes exist specifically because they're good storytelling methods to achieve a specific result. Going out of your way to upend expectations for the shock factor, as is the point of genre deconstructions, tends to leave a less tightly written story.
@@GhostLight06 As I alluded to before... that depends on what the player was wanting from the game. If the player comes in with no expectations, there's no harm done. If the player came in wanting to adore and care for those characters, DDLC will be a wholly unfulfilling experience. When the genre of the game is a plot twist unto itself, that's going to hurt the experience for a lot of people, regardless of how they find out about it. I don't know if I'd say DDLC suffers due to it being a deconstruction, but I do know that I'd say it doesn't benefit from it.
Yeah, that's another side to the genre that is very rarely explored. You don't need to have a blank slate protagonist, because the story doesn't need to have a self insert. People so often compare Visual Novels to books, but how many books actually care about having the protagonist be a relatable person to the reader?
Prince of Persia Sands of Time mentioned in this video was a good example. I, the player, controlled the puzzles and the violence parts of the game but romance was happening by itself between the main characters. And I bought it, even as a kid. I didn't need to do anything strange and gamey for them to fall for each other, they were going through some shit so it was understandable
fancy way to show NeverKnowsBest was right when he said more or less ''people try to mask the shame of romance with something more acceptable''. You're experiencing another one but not yourself experiencing something isn't a way to mask a wish for fulfillment? Not acusing you or anything, just think NKB said was very accurate. And To The Moon is a great game
@@MTheoOA I wouldn't call that fancy. My point would be that most games try to make you experience by making your character a blank slate all the LI are inexplicably attracted to. A defined protagonist avoids this blatant problem. To make you experience romance in first person you would need a level of reactivity that simply has never been tried in bideo games so far.
To the Moon felt like a romance story beetwen two wooden planks for me, where they put sad music on the background to make you feel at least something.
Otome fan to people interested definitely recommend: (Sports youth/Same creator as Sui Ishisa) Jack Jeanne. (Crime Noir) Bustafellows). (Psychological) Taisho x Alice.
Amidst a sea of comments, I nonetheless felt compelled to say how amazingly well done this is. I just finished watching the history of JRPGs video and immediately gravitated to this one as romance as a subgenre has been one of my absolute favorites, yet always seemed to be missing something. I really hung on every word you said and its amazing how nothing you had to say felt like needless padding for the sake of video length. These are the kinds of videos I hope would be used as references in school assignments. I'll certainly be sharing this with as many people as I can. Thank you!
Your conclusion mentioning that romance is considered something cringe/childish/secondary makes me think of several (25+ year olds!) friends that tell me they'd love to have a long term relationship like I have been in for 10+ years, when it actually takes a lot of literal work put into it for it to...work, and whenever the conversation goes towards these aspects they typically brush it off as going too far over companionship. I'm not gonna try to correlate cultural trends with video game development in a UA-cam comment, but perhaps a lot of people do need to reconsider how they even look at romance in general before judging the supposed wish fulfillment of romance in games - the truth is, there is a lot of wish fulfillment all around because we all unlearned (or are no longer taught properly) how to relate to other people. It's not unhealthy to engage in it, but it's no wonder it's a source of shame/negativity if you perceive that you wouldn't even know what the real thing looks like if it fell on your lap.
I have not watched the video yet, but based off of my own 5-year-old relationship, you are correct. Real and lasting relationships take time, effort, dedication, all things that might be hard or 'not fun' to put into a game. But then in a more general sense we just focus too much on the chase.
Love is easy. A hard relationship is a relationship between people who want to be together despite not being a great fit for each other. And that dynamic is what we call romance.
Having been in two long-term relationships in my life I gotta say that it's so easy for it to work out when both people actively want for it to work out, lol. It does require a level of emotional intelligence from both partners and the ability to communicate clearly, but the best part is that when you start it only gets easier from there. There's never actually one right dialogue option to make the affection go up, but if you open up it usually leads to the good outcomes. Feels to me like most people don't actually want an equal partner though, so they see a relationship as a chore with the only reward being sex. Which is kind of sad, but understandable, given the cultural landscape.
Romance is hard to simulate as it’s different to different people and not necessarily quantifiable in a decision tree. Also in the endgame stage the conversation usually just loops. Wait that *is* accurate! 😂
Comedy and fear are not easily quantifiable and very different for different people, but they have successful made plenty of games focused on these topics (and game-ified it). They can experiment with different styles of romance gameplay, and players will find what resonates with them. Dialog trees are a lazy excuse at this point. Think about the dozens of interconnected mechanics a game will use to simulate fighting, tactical maneuvers, and abstract mental states.
@@arckinenso7615 True, but let's take fear in games. Imagine playing a horror game, with, I dunno, aliens on a ship. You turn around a certain corner and BAM an alien jumps on you and kills you! That's scary, you jump back in your chair and gasp! But the problem is, you now know that the alien is just around the corner, so the next time you just ready your shotgun and BAM, it's not scary anymore. That's the main issue with romance in games, it just feels gamefied, since you can always just save and reload if you don't like a certain route, or learn the right answers....and while many horror games benefit from tech advancements, like randomly spawning enemies, the "dating simulator" kind of games are still stuck in the predetermined, predefined routes era.
@@Brekner 1) learning the surprises doesn't matter as long as the first playthrough is satisfying. Not every game needs "replay value" if it's priced appropriately. 2) If romance got more respect, it wouldn't be stuck on the archaic dialog tree "perfect route" gameplay. That's the point. They can innovate. Look at how action games use dozens of interconnecting mechanics to simulate the nuances of combat, including abstract mental states. With some ingenuity, we could do a lot more for romance gameplay. Make it genuinely deep and complex and rewarding. It'll never be comparable to the real thing, but that's true for every game genre.
@@Brekner That's because it sucks if you fuck up. That's the point. Your trying to say it's bad for someone to want to be liked. There is a difference between a game and reality still. Nevermind that's part of the point that people wish they could have done it better IRL because you can't save. And even then you have Love Plus that gives multiple year spanning days to spend with a character and develop a relationship. The problem is THAT'S LONG AND HARD TO MAKE without Nintendo money to back it.
The quality and editing just keeps getting better and better, such a great video! I loved every part of it but feel sad now that games seemingly can't do romace right... hope we'll get there eventually tho ^^
I think there is a slight error about the conversation system in Amagami. The ratio of hearts and musical notes do not affect anything. You get a heart when the level increases, and that is why you only get musical notes when the level is at the maximum. However, in the developer's previous game Kimikiss, the balance between hearts and musical notes DO matter, since it is what controls if you go towards the love or friendship routes. In Amagami this is controlled by special events, instead. The conversation system in Kimikiss also works in a much different way compared to Amagami. The player picks from a limited supply of conversation topics that can be modified to be more adapted to whoever you want to woo.
MAN, I wished Seiren didn't bomb.... it's been a long while since enterbrain wanted do another spiritual sequel. Last one was photokano and that was it... Seiren anime bombing basically cancels everything
I'm surprised the Sims didn't get a mention (or maybe it does I'm only an hour in, also I'm not good at listening maybe I missed it.) There's no romantic narrative per say but it's massive success and place in mainstream culture is probably somewhat due to the ability to simulate romance.
I was going to say the same, the disappointment in Hot Date when you get the table instead of the booth at the restaurant is on the same level as some of these games. You can't even have a conversation unless you share the same interests.
The title is somewhat misleading, I think: the video is less about "romance in video games" and more about "romance games". And The Sims, while able to be a vehicle for romantic stories through roleplay, is not a romance game by itself. It falls in the same trappings as Stardew Valley does: do the right list of actions enough times and you can get married then and there. It's a simulation of romantic love, one that needs a lot of mental efforts from the player to feel romantic
I had written a whole long-ass comment and posted it before realising to myself: "Wait, what about The Sims?" It's interesting that besides RPGs, the most prominent romance in games is in the context of the life sim genre. So it's up there with decorating a house, working a job, raising a family, etc. Which is why I've never enjoyed The Sims. Everything feels like a chore. Real life is already hard work enough. And although I wouldn't describe love and relationships as a chore, it is something that requires your constant effort and attention, so to exert more effort on it virtually somehow feels less satisfying than e.g. RPGs or even dating sims that have a good narrative.
@@No14210 The thing about The Sims is that, in order for you to get involved in its romance potential, you have to do the heavy lifting of roleplaying the stories you want to see. The base mechanics are very simplistic and come off as a faux-simile of a real world, so it's necessary to independently insert the needed context into what your sims are doing and how they're reacting
Mainstream games, RPGs and JRPGs just kinda include it like you mentioned, I always feel it's so cheap, but "there isn't that much alternative, so I guess this is what'll have to do" is something I always think. Tim Rogers actually mentions in his cyberpunk review that making a AAA game focused on relationships would be like inventing the new violence, and I'm inclined to agree. Whenever i get the itch to play something romantic, I usually just go with a japanese Visual Novel with multiple girls in it. Because romance is so subjective and there's so many ways to unfold a romance story, sometimes your favourite character just might not get the kinda story you want, so having multiple girls usually guarantees that there will be atleast 1 route you will enjoy. Usually these games have their own writer per character (though not always) so it makes it really easy for the routes to not be too similar. Thanks for the video, I enjoyed it. I guess it's time to finally go for Amagami and Tokimemo 2 after sitting on it for so long.
Would have love to see you play the entirety of Amnesia and what you thought of the plot twist and Ukyo. You talked about the eventual progressiveness of romance games through western indie devs but never really touch upon the other Japanese sub genres, BL and Yuri, which I thought was a big missed opportunity.
Amagami looks so good, anime art style really ages better than Western games. Hell, even 90s anime art style still looks great as seen in Fields of Mystria.
Katawa Shoujo and RWBY are the two pieces of media that are directly responsible for saving my life by pulling me out of my years long suicidal depression spiral long enough for me to get help. Fuck anyone who tries to write off fiction of any kind as invalid or pathetic, romance in games or attachment to characters in a show are not things to be ashamed of and the people who do that shit are assholes.
Fun fact for those interested by Katawa Shoujo: it's free! It has its own website, and it was recently added to steam as well (though there is a patch to get the nsfw content added back in). This was the first visual novel I played, and the impact it's had on my life cannot be understated.
You know, I remember Josh Sawyer recently said most romance in games, at least wit hsay, party members, is often relatively just "check boxes". Some romances, like say, in Trails in the Sky, are well done.
That's a good way of putting it. I don't play many visual novels, but I have played many Western RPGs, and most romances in those games feel like a chore. Yes, that includes Balder's Gate 3. I found that companion relationship system particularly frustrating.
One of the best parts of Trails’ romance stories is that the romantic elements hit you when you don’t expect them. Sometimes I think player choice has ruined the story beats that require them to be a bit more weak and disempowered.
Romance is just hard in general because it is a pretty complex set of emotions that create the feeling of love. It’s one of the reasons most romantic media tend towards specific tropes that more easily encompass romance and form cultural conventions and expectations around romance. Doesn’t help that romance as a genre is ridiculously huge (romance can crossover into most other genres without disturbing their conventions) and a good chunk of western depictions stem from judeo-christian doctrines and courtly love of the Middle Ages, which itself is somewhat rooted in greco-roman depictions from antiquity. The problem with romance in games is mostly that it’s an immersive experience much more so than a book, movie or song. It’s probably why most romance in games borrows from conventions of less immersive media, which tend to be more static. Romance itself is very much not static but most media are constrained in emulating the rather complex dynamics of human emotions and behaviors from moment to moment. Again that is much more obvious in games because they are immersive and have less room for the audience to fill things in. Then there is the simple fact that gaming is very male dominated and romance has generally been associated with femininity and is still often regarded as an inferior genre, which is sometimes a little if not a lot ironic considering where it came from. Still today many men consider romance emasculating, which again is somewhat ironic.
I don't think it got mentioned but I think a fascinating case is that of Hunie Pop, a game that started out as much more romance and story focused but the dev changed gears to make it more about hooking up instead. Despite this, remnants of the original concept can still be deciphered here and there, like the girls' relationship with each other. The sequel doubled down (literally I suppose) on the hook-up culture and people weren't as interested in it as the first game.
Growing up I was obsessed with romance in video games, particularly being a girl and pursuing boys, and every time anything at all was released in English in this niche I played it. Wanting access to more dating game content was the core motivating factor for me to start learning Japanese. Now I'm an adult fluent in Japanese, and there's way too much for me to ever experience it all. Thanks for the video, it feels like it was also my history and made me realise how much being born in just the right time to experience all of this has made me who I am. Hell, my greatest accomplishment in life is having made my own romance game and my dream from here on out is to make more! And I am not ashamed of that in the slightest.
I always wanted to play Amagami and I now realize why. All the characters look realistic. Almost everyone has black hair, and those that don't have brown.
I was just watching a video essay about the evolution of Romantic Comedies in the Film industry and now I get to see this applied to video games. Very interesting because movie romantic comedies are very dominated by women whereas I think (at least this channel) will have a more male-oriented gaming audience. Excited to see the perspectives.
A reasonable effort, especially in the survey of the games in the genre. But when you look at all the problems of romance in games in despair, you forget about one key thing: How is this any different than romance entertainment in any other medium? Is it any harder than in, say, the best selling ebook genre, the trashy romance novel? How about movies, where the archetypes are typically as iron-clad as in anime? Because I cannot see any of the things that you find difficult in games to be inherently worse than in any of the other mediums where romance is everywhere
I love people who aren't into yandere talk about yandere. Reminds me of how batshit insane I am for loving it (as a fantasy, irl is a nightmare). Specifically amnesia and the doggie cage. Top tier Yan content 🤌
catherine wouldve been such a good inclusion in this video. i would consider it a romance game but it's also pretty gameplay heavy. really great video though! i've always loved dating sims but grew up only playing ones that were available on steam, so it was really cool to learn the history of them :)
Catherine is VERY interesting and would need a very large section in the video, or it's own video lol. It's not a dating sim, since you can only influence the ending, but rather a deconstruction of the romance genre in a movie-like format. It's a different demographic since Vincent is in his 30s and already has a gf. And the girls themselves are the conflict rather than being romance options. It's truly a beautiful game and I would have loved some kind of mention in this video
I'm surprised you didn't include a "playthrough" of Love Plus (not that there is an end), given that how it portrays romance is so well done, it made someone marry best girl, and is the only game that focuses almost entirely about the "after confession" life
All other points aside, I love that whenever NKB needs to cut away for a second, his go-to for this is the Mortal Kombat bisection clip. Drink every time it shows up.
As for western games. I'm a bit surprised that the Sims wasn't mentioned. One of the main focuses of the game is to create a family and romance is one of the "tools" to achieve that. And there are lots of mods to make it a bit more realistic than what's in the base game.
The Sims is a virtual doll set. Romance results from the mind of the player not the narrative, characters, or the mechanics. The game explores romance to the degree the player wants it to through imagination and internal roleplay.
as someone who read a shit ton of visual novels, i think you shouldn't have focused on visual novels so much. Visual novels often use romance as a vehicle for the story. It's a shame Kanon defeated you (dw, it defeated me a well), because it's possibly the best example of what i mean on this list. That being said, other Key visual novels also do a greater job at using romance as a vehicle for story. Rewrite in particular is amazing about it. Clannad uses it for the first part of the game, and then makes that part irrelevant, because the choice is made for you, and you're now stuck for the next 150h exploring the "happily ever after" - something japanese romance-focused media rarely do. Visual novels as a medium are highly conductive to romance stories, BUT, in my experience, i didn't find romance specifically to be the driving force behind me choosing one gal or the other. The story is often one, but more than that, "i like this character, therefore i want to see them more" was the way. There are a lot of visual novels with gameplay (such as eiyuu senki) where the game's story is so grand in scope, that romance becomes just an unlock and an afterthough, and the primary form of that unlock is just giving you more scenes with a character, that are almost entirely disconnected from the story. It's not intertwined, it's simply there because it's expected. I also think this can be a solution to poor discoverability - play the game that has a story that interests you, not the game that evokes "i wanna f*ck this picture". This is how i discovered Grisaia series, and it stuck as one of the best VN experiences i had in my life, despite the theme of romance in this game being very weirdly handled (only the first game letting you "choose the gal", with the second one being a kinetic novel, and the third one being equally problematic to descript) and very weirdly depicted (Makina route...) On the other hand, it's also worth to pay some attention to western games focused on romance. Stuff such as "it takes two". It's a much more down-to-earth representation of "looking for love" than the Japanese image of what romance is or should be. Both are equally fantastical (It takes two due to it's setting, and visual novels due to their impossible depiction of circumstances), but the case of westerners focusing on the topic is much more in-depth, while the japanese depiction is a "wish fulfillment", as you called it. It's also important to remember that visual novels emerged out of a cultural and historical need for wish fulfillment, while in western games, it is very often just an exploration of the topic, not a focus.
You know what? I think I'm simply happy to see someone go out of their way to research and actually play all these dating sims and visual novels. This is a genre I have a lot of fondness for, so this is very pleasant to see. This is right up there with Action Button's video on Tokimeki Memorial.
I REALLY wished he played the other storylines in Katawa Shoujo. Four of the five girls' stories are heartfelt, charming, sad at times, but ultimately fairly lightweight... And then there's Rin's, which is one of the most emotionally complex and devastating pieces of fiction I've ever come across. And not in a shallow tear-jerker way -- but by exploring a shockingly complex person and relationship in a nuanced way that I've never seen before. It genuinely made me feel empty for days afterward, and is the sort of experience that changed my brain chemistry. It also singlehandedly advocates for the existence of visuals novels, by allowing the story to have a focus on visuals and dialogue that books can't have, a length and depth that movies can't have, and a single-minded focus that TV shows and other game genres can't have. I think it's the most polarizing storyline because it's not feel-good or wish fulfilment, and it's also the hardest to find and get the good ending for. I'm also not saying it's perfect -- the script could definitely use some tightening up. But if you've ever gotten emotionally entangled with someone remotely like Rin in real life, it hits in ways that I've never seen a piece of fiction do.
I don't know how to feel about deep cuts like Our Life being here, a game that deserves FAR more attention than it's gotten so far... but the fact that there is an entire western games studio which solely makes visual novels with lesbian romances didn't get a single mention. Studio Elan's work is amazing and they should definitely be checked out by anyone looking for WLW romance specifically ;p
Man, you can't be hitting me with a piano cover of 'I really want to stay at your house' in the conclusion so close to the edgerunners anniversary. Weird how in a video prominently featuring the only game that ever made me cry (Katawa Shoujo), that's what got me emotional.
Amagami also had a great Anime which resolved the mutiple route thing very well by giving each Girl her own route instead of the usual trying to do all and have an open ending or the rarer choosing one to win.
Your experience with Tokimemo is really interesting, for me it wound up being the opposite, despite having watched Tim Rogers' video on it like 3 times, and despite heeding his advice to ignore Shiori and just play for fun and go for the girl you like the most (for me it was Ayako, I think she's cool) I wound up completely screwing up despite only having like 7 girls my character knew and got the worst ending where the protag cries himself to sleep at night because literally no one loves him and he failed his college entrance exams despite what I thought were my best efforts to try and succeed moderately at school and get Ayako to not think I was jackass... I'd also just like to say that Shiori is the most I've ever feared a videogame character, Tim wasn't lying when she said she haunts every playthrough of the game, running into her in the hall made me clench my jaw after being greeted by her constantly disappointed face which felt pretty similar to how I imagine my irl friends would react to finding out that I'd hypothetically been living in a literal dumpster for the past year. Her subtle disappointment by how far her friend had fallen made me feel really sad and awkward.
It's simple really romance isn't a game you win. Is more of a don't mess up your life and hope to meet the right person. Which is why prescripted romances in games (as character flavour, ) work.
This! To add to this, I think another issue unique to games can their greatest appeal in interactivity. Romance as a literary genre is very much wish fulfilment. That's for many its core appeal, and its tropeyness/elements which turn some people off are just another way that can be expressed (ContraPoints made a really interesting video about this, where she begins with Twilight and then analyses how specifically feminine wish fulfilment in romance novels has been judged/what its sources can be) We approach romance in gaming with a very similar lens, because all of these are stories. They're not necessarily meant to all be realistic, the edges can be sanded off for convenience and appeal. But games' unique element, interactivity, can create a very conflict in how a story is written and how its perceived - the conflict between a prewritten personality and the self-insert. Prewritten personality makes it much easier to write a story with convincing progression of growing closeness. You can understand why this person is attracted to this other person/people. It's like a book. Interactivity introduces problems because it's unpredictable and because no game has the time, resources, and space to code all possibilities in. Players don't approach romance without the gameification of it being a big factor. They learn the right words and right presents and right activities. But there is something performative. It's, like you said, done to fill a bar, or at least can be. And when emotional attachment becomes a number, raising that number is the focus, not what that means. Another one, though a highly subjective one, is the "everyone is you-sexual" factor which can break immersion for some folks. Especially with blank slates, but also present in scripted characters sometimes, is the question of "what about you made them like you? (besides the point raising)" Rarely is anyone in real life so charming that any person, regardless of gender, orientation, and background, will want to be their partner. So when in a game you enter a setting and are surrounded by 6-12 eligible bisexuals all ready to mingle, it can take away from the experience. Cassette Beasts, a game I love for its gameplay and fun story, has optional romances for the 5 human battle partners. One of these is confirmed in universe to be bi, but mechanically, all of them are. And as much as I love this game, the dialogue options in it are pretty much always "statement 1" and "a slight variation of statement 1" which doesn't leave a lot of place for characterising the blank slate in any way. I am not against this, by any means. It's wonderful that people can explore their ingame crushes and that queerness is allowed to be explored and cherished. But I do think it's worth examining too if we're to develop this sort of stuff. I do think there is place for good love stories in gaming. Slay the Princess is considered by some the most realistic depiction of long relationship, with you and the princess acting in different dynamics depending on your choices, which can reveal what sort of attitudes both hold and in turn what can be done to fix it. There's a video essay on that i'd also recommend if you fancy a listen~
@@sharoo_draws I guess it should be less points raising and more shifting the story in a multiple choice way. This video does talk about a game where other characters can lose interest if you're spending time with another.
@@iridescent6685 Romance. That's what romance is. Saying the right thing and "trying to not fuck it up" like you said is winning. That's still a win condition.
Yay! It took me only 3 weeks to finish watching the video. Not that I'm complaining. It's always nice to know that you have some more of that cool video to watch now and then when you have the mood. Thanks for your effort, NeverKnowsBest. Your videos are ones of the most pleasant to watch at one's own pace, and your topics never cease to attract
Well played, NeverKnowsBest. You talk for over three hours about a subject I would struggle to care less about... and I know I'm going to listen to it all, because I find you interesting. Magnificent bastard.
This video actually made me realize how hungry I am to play Romance games again, I used to be so into visual novel games but as I grew up I was basically bullied out of liking them because I would try to earnestly explain to my friends at the time how good games like Narcissu 1 and 2, shuffle, DDLC, and Katawa Soujo were and they would just laugh at me and make it a running joke that I was sad and alone. So I associated the genre with getting bullied and being sad. But this video helped me reconnect with those feelings and make me realize that those people were jerks, and that I don't even talk to those people anymore anyway, and don't care what they or anyone else thinks, and I'm going to play the games I want to play because I want to play them. It doesn't matter if other people think that I'm cringe or lonely or whatever. The games mean something to me and I want to play them. So I will. This video also showed me a grand showcase of all the amazing visual novels that I missed out on in my time away from the genre, I've already added like 4 new games to my wishlist and I'm not even a third of the way done with the video. Videos like this are the reason Neverknowsbest is my favorite youtuber, genuinely. His videos resonate with you because of their genuineness and how thorough of a think piece each of his videos are. So thank you, Neverknowsbest, I hope you see this and know that your work is valued.
this is definitely a video for me omg.. I've been a huge fan of otome games particularly since I was a 14 yo teen on an iphone purchasing character routes with my dad's credit card claiming they were ibooks..still one of my favorite genres ever! I played a ton of the ones on psvita and later switch. It's the perfect blend of reading, romance, gorgeous art and voice acting! My favorite combination of things. Otome games have such amazing stories, they are really top notch! edits as i continue watching: you dont actually need to approach in girls side story 3, i was able to get the best ending with guys without it (at least on the psp version) and Emi from Katawa Shoujo is BEST GIRL❤ The only male oriented VN i played and finished. Hatoful Boyfriend... oh my god it had such a chokehold on me, amazing story honestly! its rly subversive and most ppl didnt notice it cus of how silly it all is😂
as a female viewer i was pleasantly surpised by how much focus there was on otome games, amazing video
u will never be a real woman
Neverknowsbest caters to all gamers ;)
@@androsh9039 yea he does his research, man is a professional when it comes to games.
There's no females on-line.
ure trans not a woman
Showing baldurs gate, stardew, hades, and ao3 in immediate succession felt like watching my personality diluted into 20 seconds
i appreciate that the wording here implies your personality would usually be less than 20 seconds and needs to be diluted to that volume
@@thuslyandfurthermoreyou know I initially meant compressed but due that poor word choice, i may have revealed something more depressing, but more accurate than intended lmao
@Tieflingbardtrash you are more than your video game preferences. There are also fast food and porn preferences.
You and the rest of the population
Not me with 20 tabs of ao3 fics open at once 😶
GF: Babe, let's go on a romantic trip?!
Me: Honey I can't I'm watching a 4-hour documentary of how romance unfolds in videogame history
As you should
This is the way!
I read Gabe instead of Babe at first and was confused how Gaben is involved
@@MaakaSakuranbo Of course Gabe is, why wouldn't he?
@@MaakaSakuranbohe's divine
about Our Life: i am a picky eater. when planning our wedding (in the dlc), i was like "whatever" for catering and cove called me out and said "absolutely not you are a picky eater and we are having food you can eat at your own dang wedding" and i actually had to take a break from the game and just cry. the wish fulfillment is real, and you (yes, you) deserve genuine care.
God bless ya and Jesus loves ya man, I hope you not only love yourself but get all the wish fulfillment you deserve irl
Omg i love our life
Omg same. As a picky eater, I'd kill for a partner like that
Our Life went so hard and above and beyond with the story and interactions that I had to take breaks in between before I got myself way too invested lol
@@petrifiedviewer i rlly need to replay it
I like how you brought up the point that most DDLC players have never played a dating sim or even read a visual novel before playing DDLC. This is pretty relevant now with games like Class of '09 that market themselves as an 'anti-visual novel' and 'rejection sim' when the creator also admitted to not having played any vns or dating sims before. The creator voices a disdain towards vns and dating sims without even playing one
No way...
Love in video games sucks ? What do you mean ? Just bombard your prospective partner with gifts to fill up the "love bar" until they sleep with you. Seems pretty realistic to me.
San Andreas taught me I just need to bring them flowers and take them out on a family friendly drive-by.
Also once someone sleeps with you, mission accomplished baby, ignore her for the rest of the game
achievement unlocked: love bombing.
It’s like that in real life as well to an extent. There’s just a lot more talking and nuance.
capitalism moment
What you talking about? That dog cage scene was amazing, he even lets you play on his psp, 10/10 boyfriend.
i'd get in any cage if it had a psp in it
Now i have to watch all of it to find where he put Toma
Does he even have Patapon or Dissidia? If not he is a fucking monster.
@@monkey_blu Do not worry, he will buy new games for you. Bet.
Is it weird that the dog cage scene legit gave me some roleplay ideas? (I'm a guy)
Romance is yet another fantasy that games allow me to simulate
Real and based
“We have a perfect name for fantasy realised. It's called nightmare.” Žižek
@@Tofu_va_BienS N I F F
Lame, love is for girls
In that case that simulation should be at least good.
A game where you date girls! That’s gay!…. Has to be just the best statement ever uttered by anyone in existence
I actually love it when a game features love and romance. It's honestly a selling point to me, that lets me get more invested in a story and characters. I wish more games would actually delve into romance, and that fewer romances would basically just "end" the moment you get intimate with your romantic partner.
Its like game developers forget that relationships exist past sex.
Bold of you to assume most devs get that far to begin with
Sort of a broader thing with media, like compare how many stories are about getting into a relationship versus how many are about keeping one going. It's not like there aren't any, but the asymmetry is wild considering how much dramatic potential exists between and within people who have established bonds.
I would recommend playing Making Lovers. It has the first and second game. The first one is building a relation, the second is in the relation. It has pc port
I wouldn't be surprised if many folks' priorities in BG3 was getting a happy end with their chosen waifu, or husbando, and I'm one of them. Sure other things mattered too, but as long as that was achieved, compromises could be made.
Cause achieving it usually already involves a bunch of other stuff, the adventure & getting to know each other, and surviving clutch encounters as you have each other's back. How could searching for your "ideal partner" on a dating app ever match that?
you might want to check out Love Plus then if you want to see a game feature romance where the relationship doesn't end after the characters get together, I'm not saying it's a perfect game, since I'm not really a fan of how it simplified Tokimemo's basic gameplay loop, but I do think it's really interesting how most of your time in the game is spent after you and one of the girls get together and hanging out with them when you're actually dating
"I think we can all agree that pc-98 pixelart is the peak of artistic aesthetic, this is where we peaked as a species and it's all been downhill since then." This is the most true thing I've ever heard
It is one peak. We are just waiting for the next one.
@@AB-sw4kb And when will that be? I am growing a bit impatient over the years! 😂
@@BlackPrinny May 16, 2031
Rondo of blood
@@AB-sw4kb I've set a reminder, will return and reply. Good luck Nostradamus
Interesting documentary! As someone who's published Japanese games professionally in the past, I enjoyed seeing a historical overview of a genre I have less experience with.
I found myself laughing really hard as you tunnel-visioned on "the best girl" in some games, and ended up making mistakes and liking the game less because you tried too hard. Maybe an unintended life lesson by the devs ^_^; I laughed really hard at the Kanon "Uguuh" montage. Anyone that's ever seen the anime will absolutely remember this (infamous?) aspect of the characterization, and I was just waiting (and hoping) that this aspect would be addressed in an amusing montage, lol. I also enjoyed your very relatable rage at irritating game mechanics, and the transition to the "moe" anime style in the early 2000s. I agree, it's an absolute crime vintage anime art styles were completely abandoned for moe, although thankfully more diverse styles seem to be returning more recently.
As far as the primary question you raised in the video, "Why are games centered around romantic themes not more popular?" I have several theories.
As you mentioned, games have a strong wish fulfillment aspect to them. Historically, many games have been centered around action, like being able to experience the thrill of defeating enemies or surviving a life threatening situation in a horror game. However, although it's fun to experience these things vicariously, most people do not want to *actually* experience war, violence, or be in real danger.
Romance is different however. Being in love is a positive, normal thing and people *do* actually want to experience romance happening to them in real life. If you play a game, have an amazing romantic relationship with a character, and really connect with them, you might actually want that relationship to continue, because being in a happy relationship would be a positive life change. Beyond wish fulfillment, you might want that relationship to actually continue and be real. However, at the end of the day, the game cannot actually love you, and when you turn the console off you are still alone in the end. The love isn't real and has a finite story end point. It might have the opposite effect of the escapism that was intended, and the ending of a romantic game might feel sad or bittersweet instead. While in an action game, you of course don't want those events to actually happen, so you can be satisfied with the games conclusion and actually enjoy your escapism, then simply move on.
Exploring the idea of escapism further, most people could never be an action hero, but many people are able to experience romance for themselves. They don't need a game to experience romance because they can actually be in a relationship or just go out and date for real. Paradoxically, playing a dating sim may actively make your chance of being in a real relationship lower, because the time you spent playing the game took time away that you could be putting yourself out in social situations where you could potentially meet someone. I think this is a big part of where the stigma around playing dating sims comes from.
There is also the concept of the "lack of believability" in romance games because a lot of them just devolve into saying the right things over and over to build up affection points until the character you want falls in love with you. Real life doesn't work that way, so it feels cheap, unrealistic, and too easy. However, trying to make romantic attraction more believable would make the game a lot less fun, because in reality most people will not be attracted to you, and will never be attracted to you no matter what choices you make. Player agency is the core mechanic of most video games, so making a dating sim more realistic by making other characters permanently disinterested in you for reasons outside your control would also make that game profoundly un-fun. It's a catch 22, it feels unsatisfying because you can easily obtain it, but if it's unattainable and therefore more desirable, you just feel bad.
Maybe that could be an interesting (if mean-spirited) dating sim deconstruction. You could set up a stereotypical dating sim premise with hypothetically available characters, but no matter what you do in the game, none of them will actually date you.
Your comment on the agency of most romantic partners in dating games was interesting. A crucial part of a romance is the deliberate choice to be together, which game characters currently cannot replicate. They feel like a "given", because you know they will always date you, no matter what, as long as you make the correct choices. But in reality, love is not that safe because the other person reciprocating your feelings is not guaranteed, and even if they do, it is also not guaranteed to last.
Basically, there are a lot of complicated aspects of relationships and desire that are really hard to simulate in a game. Gamify-ing them makes them unsatisfying, and accurately simulating them would probably be depressing.
I especially the point you made in the middle. Romance in a game can be too real. Kind of like being shown a wonderful slice of cake. The most beautiful one you've ever seen, except that it is made out of plastic. You haven't had a cake in years and that plastic depiction just reminded you how nice it would be if it was real.
Most points you make about romance games can be applied to other games though.
People play games to be the hero who saves the world, kills the big bad, or just explores the world. They want to genuinely, immersively experience that, but without all the actual risks that come with it (permanent death, injuries, etc), same with romance games, players want the good stuff, without the real trauma of being heart broken, being made fun of. Good games without romance also leave you with a bittersweet feeling, like you're a hero who saved the world where everybody loves you and you farmed a lot of money? Time to go back to the normal insignificant poor life.
Playing mmos or action rpgs, where you're farming gear and improving your character, when you could improve yourself in real life instead? People don't really have a problem with it. Why do they when it comes to romance? It's not like romance is more important than financial stability/physical health/education.
People also don't have a problem with the fact that it takes 30 hours and no prior experience to save the world in a video game, or become a millionaire by farming enemies for 30 minutes. Suspension of disbelief works in all the other unrealistic cases, why would it not for romance, provided it's well written?
I think that it mostly comes down to insecurities, shame, stigma. You wouldn't want your grandma catch you playing something like this, right? Everything else is a coping mechanism for why you'd avoid playing it, even if deep down you'd actually want that experience. It's wish fulfillment like any other.
What I believe to be a major issue is that unlike many other things games have been able to portray in an accurate/satisfying way, romance is incredibly hard to execute mechanically, as is anything that is this directly tied to human emotions. And in this case, it is multiple humans trying to work together, which makes things very awkward very fast. Most people can't understand each other's or their own emotions effectively, so trying to quantify and "code" that in a way that the chaotic engine of unpredictability that is the average player isn't going to break in several ways you could never have imagined in your life.
@@inquisitorbenediktanders3142 I agree, that is a good point too. Trying to quantify a human emotion as a game mechanic (which players can exploit) does cheapen it somewhat in this case.
Just stop playing games for wish fulfillment. Games are made by people, and usually, they want to say something. Try get the message of the game and stop focusing on egoistical wishes.....
Yeah they not real, but who cares, they still exist in their limited capacity. If they wouldn't, then you would not hear or see them.
Stop stigmatization of the dating genre, I hate romance (the wish fulfillment aspect), yet I love characters (the narrative and message).
1:48:44 "Anime still hasn't truly regained what was lost in the great Moe massacre of 1999" That rant made me laugh my ass off, well done.
The change was a great thing
@@rebzzribzzlol this is the guy straight out of the video
Atleast now a lot of the recent popular anime are having some good or unique artstyles. There's Great Pretender, Cyberpunk Edgerunners, MAPPA's animes, Elusive Samurai, Apothecary Diaries and many other.
@@rebzzribzzyou're the reason firing squads were invented
@@rebzzribzzfound the one guy. Hope you don't play Minecraft.
I have to comment this so it's out there, but actually plenty of people play dating sims and it's not for wish fulfillment.
I have friends that specifically don't want any kind of romance in their lives and I think the reason for why visual novels do have a lot of replayability is because what people are interested in is the depth of story and character study.
Also they have favorite characters and routes, but they don't see themselves in the player character. I think this is also why people should give all types of dating sims a chance even if your gender isn't the target demographic!
About DDLC and that Westerners wouldn't know what it's parodying:
I never sought out information about dating sims prior to seeing DDLC, but the general idea of japanese dating sims was out there, and mostly in the "oh those crazy japanese" context.
If you were online enough to find DDLC, you knew the gist of what it was parodying. There may have been some subtle references I missed, but I knew generally what I was dealing with.
It's kinda like how I saw the first Austin Powers as a kid before I had watched any actual James Bond movies, and it made enough sense from the bits and pieces I had absorbed up until then.
Never underestimate the power of cultural osmosis
@@tarnetskygge He has a point tho, unless you like anime or VNs, you won't search for or consider playing such a game.
He specifically talked about lack of _firsthand_ experience, not general ignorance about the genre.
Unfamiliarity of the audience is why it did work. It subvets the stereotypical image but it isn't anything new for the genre really.
Yeah, that was an interesting part of the video because I personally never realized it was that new of a concept to the west. As someone who had prior experience with the genre after Katawa Shoujo introduced it to me, I'm probably in the minority of people for whom the deconstruction aspect of DDLC actually hit it's intended mark.
"the great moe massacre of 1999" has got to be one of the best names in all of anime history. ive been listening to this all day throughout my commute, amazing video as always and thank you for posting this masterpiece!!! i love your videos so much
Moesaccre
"I'm not saying I'd prefer the cage; I'd never say that. But I think I preferred the cage."
I don't mean to alarm you, but I think Diamond Route may have awakened something in you.
The fact that never found amnesia I remember watching through the routes in high school and being traumatized
2:57:32
2:57:46
I mean, i personally would like it if it's a girl and not a guy named toma
@@Wormopera Toma is an ok name
Wow.
Toma is me.
Huge respect for the channel that continously tackles time-consuming, deep topics that no one else covers.
This channel is inspiring in more ways than one.
Our Life: Together and Always is a really really well done western otome. as an introverted anxious human, romance in games has always just been something cozy to enjoy. 10/10 recommend
OL isn't an otome since you can choose your character's gender but I'm seconding this
It's indeed not an otome and was never marketed as much. LIs can fall for MC no matter the pronounce you chose. MC can also transition in mid-game, which would never be allowed in an otome title.
Slay the Princess is the best romance game I played last year
StP has both some of the most wholesome and toxic relationships ever.
Slay the Princess works remarkably well because of its small development team of a couple. Its creators also emerging out of Western Internet culture makes a more digestable experience for people not into prototypical dating sims. It was one best games I played last year due to its protryal of romance.
it’s honestly fantastic, it changed my brain chemistry
Agreed, To The Moon is also something I wish he came across.
@@BrandonCroy To the Moon should have never been a game. If they couldn't get the funding to make it a TV series where it would have been at it's best, then it should have just been a book.
Wake up babe, NeverKnowsBest just released a gargantuan video essay on his current hyperfixation and this time it's all about Romance in games, so break out the wine.
3 hours of foreplay.
I,in fact, did this in real life
@@diniz6397 cheers!
I rushed to watch this as fast as possible when I saw Hatoful as part of the thumbnail and as a HUGE otome enjoyer and HB defender I'm really glad you played the full game. There's way too many people on YT that talk about it like they know the game well when it's obvious they never played up to Shuu's route, let alone reaching Hurtful Boyfriend. Funnily enough Amnesia: Memories WAS my first otome game, and like you said, there are certainly better ones, however for me and a lot of girls it was just good enough to explore the genre further. And again like you said there's so much variety in setting and sub-genres that I really do believe there's something for everyone, so long as you are also a fan of visual novels, because meaningful stat raising/dating sim elements are very rare.
Watching the rest of the video, I recalled that in the last Nintendo Direct it showcased yet ANOTHER Western parody dating sim called Date Everything where you get to romance household objects, meanwhile Nintendo Japan's Direct on the same day announced a Switch port of the original Tokimeki Memorial. I saw a Tweet where someone said, essentially (because I can't remember verbatim) "This really shows the difference between Japan and the West. In Japan these games are treated with respect and love, but they're still played up just for laughs in the West." So I really appreciate how you highlighted this in your video.
P.S. I just want to say, there's a series of otome games called Diabolik Lovers where EVERY love interest is an even more insane, problematic Toma, and they're all vampires that routinely suck the heroine's blood without consent and physically and verbally abuse the hell out of her, and yet in the end the protag falls in love with the guy of your choosing. It sounds insane, but the series has EIGHT games, a 2-season anime adaptation, 3 stage plays, and a ton of drama CDs. It's extremely popular.
Dialovers introduced so many people to asmr and binaural audio it’s a shame it hasn’t gotten officially localized
@@csrjjsmp For real.
The Diabolik Lovers description doesn't sounds insane to me, honestly, looks like very accurate representation of the type of guys women usually like
Fellow hatoful fan! Huge agree, way too many UA-camrs act like they know what hatoful is all about on one or two routes alone. I’ve been introducing some friends to the game by all huddling around my laptop and reading aloud and they’re enjoying it a lot! They’re halfway through hurtful route,,, very exciting. Gonna make them play holiday star too, I need to see their reactions to hitorigate!
I’m working on a cosplay. Making the head jar for it. The bird brainrot is taking over!
If we're talking about otome game fans and their questionable taste in men I think we should also mention Steam Prison having to make the antagonist who abuses and horribly tortures the protagonist multiple times in the game a romance option in the sequel because he was so overwhelmingly popular. Just your average day in the otome game world
I loved Our Life because it let me play as an autistic kid that I was - bad at reading emotions, coming off as unemotional and bad at social interaction, having sensory issues - and not be met with ostracisation and disgust. And I think that’s the target demographic; neurodivergent people with childhood trauma experiencing acceptance.
No exaggeration, this is the best video essay ive ever watched. Throughout my life, I've wanted to understand the extent of romance in games because it is such a meaningful human connection. I was a huge fan of romance and fairytales as a young girl, but I also loved the exploratory format of video games. I wanted to understand how romance and love develops or fails, and wanted to examine the turning point of when it becomes profound, or why two characters choose each other.
However I struggled to find games that scratched the surface ALL my life. They seriously always sidestep it in western games! I got into japanese games because of the minor romance in jrpgs and visual novels. Even that got frustrating because it can be repetitive and tropey. I also fell into shipping when the romantic content wasn't compelling or explored enough and I wanted to imagine a romantic dynamic more...Such a struggle!!
Thanks for making such an in-depth look into this! It really satisfied my autistic girl heart 😍🩷💜
Great video as always, i just want to add one thing. I believe the main reason behind the stigma around playing romance games is that, unlike most other forms of wish fulfillment, the romance game is simulating something that is generally seen as achievable for anyone, and common enough to be considered easy and even expected. Other forms of wish fulfillment simulate impossible or extremely difficult things, outside of the reasonably expected capabilities of the Audience, so its far less common to criticize someone for indulging in them.
Romantic simulation is seen as the alternative used by those who have failed at something that should be possible for anyone.
Maybe it's better to compare romance games to genres such as fishing simulators or truck driving simulators: very accessible real-life activities that still require a certain investment in time and money. The electronic versions still have their own obvious advantages, and even people who do those things regularly in real life often play the games too. From that angle the stigma makes very little sense.
@@tarnetskygge I agree that the comparison is closer with those games, but I disagree with your conclusion. Firstly there is some stigma with those kinds of games, a lot less than with romance of course, but unironic enjoyment of truck simulator and games like it will result in second looks and some amount of judgement from the general population and even some gamers.
Second, and more importantly, those games simulate achievable hobbies not expected life goals (basically, we expect everyone to get a romantic partner in life, not necessarily to have hobbies), so the effect is less pronounced, not unlike how people who are very into physical trainsets are also frequently mocked about it.
And the worst part is that it is not true to begin with. Humans are descended from approximately 80% of the female population... to around 40% of men. While some men obviously get into a relationship without children, it nonetheless gets the point across that _far_ from all, or possibly the _majority_ of men, get romance. A lot of the statistics on modern loneliness and relationship/s€× distribution look like a return towards the pre-late 19th and especially mid-20th century flattening of the curve corresponding to the explosive rise of a large middle class. Contrary to popular imagination and outdated expectations about life goals, relationships are actually a _massive_ deal with a lot of challenges and obstacles to getting into and maintaining and includes many factors outside of an individual person's control.
Mostly guys because people keep forgetting your not taught normal life things. Your expected to just learn. Your born a babe into this world blind, weak and dumb. You absorb knowledge and sense things around yoh quickly or die. Most people just aren't taught how to sort this info and think so they come up with things themselves till they are like 1 where your taught more how to live in society.
Maybe taught wrong or right base on your own parents and the like.
Nevermind as well that the most normal thing a young boy is going to want to know is how to talk to girls when he becomes interested in them because of hormones when most of his life he was taught not to treat them like another person but as a "girl". Something special and different from them. Leading to further issues. Made worse by society telling a young boy to man up very early on as well.
Leading to a man who doesn't have the capacity to talk to a woman who is now far removed from him socially and personality wise. Making a dating SIM actually pretty reasonable thing for a boy to want to play.
@@tarnetskygge
Nope.
Your not talking. Your just doing something.
Talking has way more interactions that could occur for those simulation games to not be close to the same thing. They often have no sense of interaction. Just acting as a task to do like any other game. So much so they show up as mini games in other games and don't feel shallow but fun departure. Meanwhile as the video length and multiple points of this essay shows that isn't the case with romance as an option in games.
Even when made the focus it still pales in comparison to reality do to computers not having the processing power for it.
Kanon being published in July after 25 years just to ruin a 200+ mins youtube video essay made my mind go boom
"It was as I was aggressively bullying various boys into liking me through tactical handholding that I did wonder if some of the wish fulfillment of this game is as much having a boyfriend as it is having a pet"
He's figured us out scatter
The same guy at other points in the video:
"I liked it when she called me a good boy."
"I think I preferred the cage."
A few people in the comment sections say that romance in games makes them feel lonely at times, and... it's not necessarily a bad thing
To feel alone means romance in video games affected us and that's what art does to people, in this i agree with NKB's point that games should be allowed to make us feel things even if they're not "fun"! I remember Katawa Shoujo pulled me out of a very depressing time in my life but only after making me question a lot of things regarding why we live despite our flaws and approach relationships in the first place; it's for support and love.
BOY did KS really tackle those topics with a painfully sincere approach, hit 14yo me like a sledgehammer but it's one of my most memorable gaming moments 13 years later because it truly affected how i've lived my life since
Honestly, this is similar to how Persona 5 Royal has affected me when I started playing it a couple months ago, though not just when it comes to romance but relationships in general. It made me realize I was a bit *too* invested in these characters, in finding more about them and spending time with them. Eventually I reached a point where I was a bit too bothered by this. The feeling kind of snuck up on me, but it was essentially what you've named - loneliness. I had to think it through a bit, and now I have decided to stop playing not only Persona, but video games in general, at least for a while. This experience has helped me realize how much I've used these games as a way to fill a deep well of loneliness in my heart for many, many years, since I couldn't find any support in my own family. For now, I'm trying to work on other objectives I have for myself, some of which happen to be quite a bit more social, and I'll see if I can't get a more fulfilling social life before I get back to gaming. It's not that I despise or hate the hobby in any way. Games have given me extremely valuable life lessons and have even had very practical uses, such as helping me learn English (I'm Brazilian) or being in contact with creative writing, good or bad. Not to mention, of course, the simple joy they've given me. The only thing that's changed is that now I realize just how much of a crutch the hobby has also been, to the point that it might've hindered some areas of my life. And since I want that to change, I'll give this a shot, to be brave enough to step past them for a while. Hopefully when I get back to P5, I'll have a proper social circle of confidants of my own, and I'll be able to get through the game more painlessly. I already miss getting lost in these stories, but I'm still moving on. Wish me luck!
I was listening to this at work and I GASPED so loud when you brought up our life beginning and always. That game means so much to me, I loved it so much. It got me through hard times in my life, and I cried MANY times while playing it. I wrote a review for it on steam (only game review I've ever written) just detailing how much it meant to me and how I adore it. It felt like it filled a hole in my heart, nurtured me in ways I can't explain. It just... Was such a good game to me and meant so much. I can understand why it didn't resonate with you like it did for me though. This was a great video all around!
Thanks for this comment and for sharing so sincerely. I’ve never heard of that game before, and it seems quite different to my usual fare, but I’ll check it out based on your heartfelt recommendation.
Honestly, I freaking love that you went and ACTUALLY PLAYED a lot of dating sims and VNs instead of making a mild video talking about how subversive DDLC is like so many other people who aren't super familiar with the genre, and also being aware of You and Me and Her in general existing. Even if you weren't huge on any of these games I respect the effort.
"I think I prefer the cage" - NeverKnowsBest, 2024.
Best line fr
As someone who primarily interacts with the otome community, your opinion on Toma seems decently common with people that arent specifically into whats going on in his route lmaoooo
Didn't Toma reach spot 1 in the favorite char poll though?
Ig that could still align with what you are saying.
Otome plots do be wild though. And ngl that is at least one reason I play them even if what happened here was certainly not for me.
@michimatsch5862 then i was wrong and the spaces ive been in dont represent the majority which is fine, i havent gotten around to reading amnesia so im not actively looking for stuff about him so this mostly just came from the people im around and the posts ive seen about him all talking about him in a decently negative light which easily could just be me mostly interacting with a specific type of person lmao
@@michimatsch5862 Toma is very popular with japanese audiences. But whether the English speaking audience is the same... I don't know.
The people who dislike him could be a vocal minority in the west or it may not🤔
Wait till you find out about Yang
@@rinamohn1807 we moralize our entertainment a lot because of how the Hays Code and Satanic Panic etc. became a part of our socialization and how we consume media. Other audiences around the world might not. I don't think it's that surprising that we would have a different opinion on him. Japanese audiences might engage with him through less of a moral barrier. "If I like this then I'm a bad person" overwhelmingly strikes me as a western idea, and we're a bit irony poisoned.
A lot of comments here seem to ignore the most interesting point of the video: How could games portray romance in a way that plays to the strengths of the medium?
I see so many bringing up JRPGs with canonical pairings but, as the video quite explicitly discussed, the linear nature and established characterization of the main protagonist disallows any kind of personal expression from the player. To put it simply, You never have a say in the relationship the playable protagonist is in despite playing AS the playable protagonist.
Borrowing from the video, Games have authentically portrayed violence in war, ethical dilemmas, and even familial love. Not just through story, but GAMEPLAY. Sure enough then, why couldn’t it also portray romantic love the same way?
I just think romance is a very difficult thing to gameify and still have read as genuine or realistic.
Maybe just play more games? This viceo nitpicks on few quite meh or bad games overall.
@@robertnomok9750Can you provide an example of a game that does romance well?
It's difficult to translate genuine romance into game mechanics. Romance can't be easily distilled into simple inputs and outputs like X leads to Y, nor does romance lend itself to predictable outcomes, you can do the optimal strategy but it still can fail in IRL romance, how do you make that a fun game mechanic without boiling it down to percentage chances and RNG luck? How do you make a genuine romantic mood into game mechanics without devolving to hearts on the screen and a red filter? It's just tough to put into practice.
It has nothing to do with gaming, it’s just misandry. Hating men for being human and having feelings is as old as time. Both women and men participate in tearing men down for having any traits which resemble femininity. By which I mean specifically anything soft or vulnerable. It is directly reflected in male dating culture, just enjoying a women’s company without getting her into bed is seen as weak or pathetic.
Of course most men are more romantic than women, the scientific literature confirms this we are as a sex more loyal to partners, this is genetic, a man needs the ability to sacrifice himself for a woman but a woman needs to be able to switch to whatever partner will protect or provide for them. However this fact is considered so offensive that it is purged and mocked anytime you suggest women aren’t as sentimental and invested as men.
So n my opinion this entire video arguing for men not being ok with playing dating sims is ridiculous, all men put romance before anything else. Our instinct to find a mate if far stronger than to fight, it’s just that the feminist driven culture is totally anchored in the lie that only women have a soft side and so men need to be controlled and diminished. Hence replacing traditional relationships with alternative ones, it’s another way of just removing romance from men.
I would argue that the romance in uncharted 4 was pretty beautiful even if it was small.
There is no stigma around romance in video games there is a stigma with anything straight male being humanized.
This idea of how to use the unique characteristics of the video game medium when it comes to romance is part of why Disco Elysium was so exciting. A game system that prioritizes personality traits and affects your relationships with others and who and how you can interact with them is something that gave so much life and substance to even the most throw away of characters. That could be invaluable to the romance genre.
It would but it wouldn't be done well by a Western dev. Especially since Disco's dev team had their shit stolen because of two jackass devs and then got fucked over by being bought out and disposed of.
Especially since most people don't even get Disco's writing to begin which is the problem.
@@RavenCloak13 How do you mean? what did people miss?
@@robeseller6530 If I had to guess, I would say that they're probably talking about how a common takeaway from Disco Elysium is that it criticizes "all political ideologies equally", when in reality, the communist "path" is written largely as idealistic and lofty, with a bunch of in-fighting about how communists spend a lot of time fighting more with other communists than actually getting anything done, but is still ultimately portrayed as "good" in that the folks you talk to have true hope and belief in the system. None of the other political faction questlines end with the slightly hopeful note that the communism quest does, but a lot of people do seem to overlook this and assume that it is a politically neutral game.
Romance and disco elysium, I’m still disappointed we didn’t get a sequel.
I wanted Raphael to get together with lilienne.
@@robeseller6530
It's not a communist game. It outright hates not and the two people in charge of destroying the company were the communist.
It's blindingly obvious that Dream Daddy was a game made/written by a bunch of straight guys who didn't want to write/show any gay romance between 2 adult men, to be played by a bunch of straight people so they can look at the gay men, but not actually have to see any gross gay romance between 2 adult men.
It's funny you say that because I do believe the lead writer was a woman
I remember trying it and thinking “this is the east gay, gay thing I’ve ever experienced” 😂
I'm over here coping after Gale "easiest companion to romance" Dekarios dumped my halfling wizard in order to go fish a crown out of a river 😭
That's cuz you didn't make the right choices lol. Don't blame the romance or the character for your own mistakes
@@------........................ What a strange response xD
@@------........................ normally i'd agree but getting Gale to pick the choice you want him to is stupidly difficult because of how many innocuous decisions matter and if you're trying to go for the middle ground "leave the crown but don't apologise to Mystra" you might as well give up because treading that line is nigh impossible without looking up which options to pick.
Hell the game straight up lies to you towards the end by giving you the option to pass a very high persuasion check to get Gale to pivot last minute to the opposite choice, except it s broken and does absolutely nothing.
@@CosmicToad5000That dice rolls flags are completely broken. r/galemancers has an in depth guide if you are interested in not having to have him apologize to Mystra, but remain human.
@@CosmicToad5000I left the crown and married gale with ease and no guide. I don’t think I apologized to mystra either but I can’t remember, it doesn’t sound like something I’d do
Speaking from my experience writing for videogames a lot of game developers are reluctant to include romance for two reasons:
Literal lack of personal experience that makes them incapable of presenting romance realistically.
Unwillingness to do it for political reasons or awkwardness. I have worked in games were relationships got axed to avoid stepping on imaginary eggshells and to "avoid alienating the audience."
they cant put any type of couple even slightly less than vanilla in games because if they do the straights will scream and kick their feet until it never happens again.
@@zhalosc the straights? the one screaming more are the gays. the straights just don't bother buying those games
@@zhalosc you realize straight/gay isn't a personality trait? Also vanilla can mean so many things so I doubt anyone has any idea what exactly you meant.
@@zhaloscthere is literally a game in this video where the PC gets locked in a cage and abused yet "the straights"™ don't care. Stop blaming straight ppl for your problems.
@@zhalosc BG3 invalides everything you wrote. Most players have a problem with non straight stuff only when it's spotlighted and when the game tries to force you into it.
BG3 also had this problem at the beginning where characters would come on to you at a much lower threshold of approval than intended, resulting in awkward experiences where characters you had no real interest in, came on to you and it felt awkward having to reject them all.
This is literally the first time I've seen Our Life covered in any analysis video and I love you so much for finally talking about this piece of gem!
The main appeal of Hatoful Boyfriend was the meta-narrative and how completely bonkers the endings are.
If you fail to form a meaningful pigeon relationship, you get murdered by the Bird Gestapo, who go on a vicious pogrom to eliminate the last remnants of humankind.
This thumbnail gives me such an immediate throwback to the Tim Rogers video, but this topic is worth discussing in a thousand different games
BINGO
Fuck Tim Rogers needs to release a new video.
0:00:01 Video games have come a long way since PAC MAN
Is he like an AVGN parody or something?
@Coopersville no he's a very analytical reviewer that talks about games in extremely deep lengths, quite possibly the greatest video essayist on the platform
I really enjoy your content. You allow yourself to explore topics that are somewhat uncomfortable and not very sexy or marketable, and they're much more interesting and thought provoking because of it.
As a MASSIVE hatoful boyfriend fan, I’m glad you gave it a shot! Not everyone is going to be interested in the admittedly poorly paced romance routes, but I definitely did! I find the game most fun when you play with friends and read aloud 😊 I find the true route to be super engaging and thrilling and the emotions very hard-hitting! However, the sequel may be even better? Holiday star fills in lore gaps you hadn’t thought of before and dives deeper into the characters in fun ways! It isn’t perfect either, but overall, the hatoful series basically hijacked my brain as soon as I first watched a playthrough! If anyone seemed kinda interested, I definitely recommend they check it out!
Really great video. I'd never played a single romance game in my life, other than Doki Doki Literature Club, which, as discussed in the video, is not a romance videogame. The one that peaked my interest was Amagami, I thought the character designs looked really good, but I went for Katawa Shoujo instead, probably because it's absurd premise could still mask it for irony, still all to concerned with the stigma around these games. After finishing my first route I was positively delighted, it was really good experience and opened my eyes to the world of visual novels.
There's a small something I'd like to ask of anyone that plays this game: Don't hide it.
I know that sounds hard, with the stigma and all, and I'm not saying you should talk to everyone about it or at all, but I do mean don't buy it on private settings or hide the activity, since it further prolongs the stigma. At first I was guilty of this, I set my steam status to disconnected whenever I played it for this reason, but eventually after seeing how well done these games really are and how sad it is that they don't get recognized, I decided to just play it openly, leaving a review while I'm at it.
I'll admit I was asked about it, with a glance that meant "Why are you even playing this?" but I simply said "Why wouldn't I? The story is great." And that's where I realized we really just have this stigma for no particular reason most of the time, we only think of the negative qualities of the genre when asked about it. It's the sort of thing where it's not weird if you don't make it weird, and I think that's valuable.
I will playing some other visual novels, romance or otherwise (granted I'm interested in the premise, erogames are still not for me) but I will be doing it openly, and hopefully one day, people won't feel ashamed to buy these games or to discuss them for these emotions are valuable, and the medium is more than capable of delivering them if you let it.
Romance in video games have two massive hurdles from my perspective (someone who loves romance in media): 1. As opposed to most other types of media, video games are unique in making the protagonist feel instinctively like "you". When you play a game, whether it be blank-slate Skyrim or roleplay Uncharted, when you refer to the protagonist's actions to another person you almost always say "I did x and then I did y". Romance, as a fictional genre, tends to be more critically successful when it divorces the audience from the two main characters. (Of course, you can find self-inserts and blank-slate protagonists aplenty, but compare Titanic to Twilight in critical reception, even though they are similar in commercial success, and truely second person fiction y/n romance vs most traditionally published fiction if you are someone who wants to argue about whether Twilight is better than Titanic.)
2. There are actually three parts to a romance - the main character, the love interest, and their dynamic. In dating sims all too often there are two out of three missing - the protagonist is a blank slate AND the dynamic is bland because the gameplay requires this person to play off of lackluster responses and match inputs like gifts or mini games with corresponding increases in affection. This leaves everything feeling like someone monologue at you, like you said. If you could have different rapports with people, that would immediately change everything. This is sometimes done but it usually feels accidental - sometimes I get into a teasing back and forth with love interests because I decide halfway through a play session that I no longer want to date them but can't bring myself to cold-heartedly end the relationship. As someone who in real life and fiction finds that the truest indicator of romance is how two people interact in different settings, this is a constant disappointment. Let me playfully tease someone and accidentally cross a line in a game! Let me try to get serious with someone and have them respond with a too-light comment that brushes me off! And let that be the actual story and not just jarring tonal issues with the writing!
I see Katawa Shoujo in the thumbnail, I click.
Yep, instantly
Me too ⛄️
Haha me too. Though not just it but also other visual novel game
Me but hatoful
Really? It wasn't the pigeon?
It's a shame that Western game developers never took romance seriously as a genre, which allowed the Japanese market to define it (for better and worse). For example, I find Japanese fiction hyper-focuses on initial relationship milestones (and first-love/high-school relationships), whether it's the big confession, the couple's first kiss or what-have-you.
From the games you showed off, Uncharted is one of the only ones that really looked at some of the struggles that happen with an established, romantic, adult relationship - and romance isn't even remotely the series' primary focus. I'm not dissing Japanese games, mind you (I've played a lot of them), but more ideas and variety is always better.
Defender Of The Crown (1986), a strategy game, had a romance scene if you rescued a maiden (one from several random options) from a castle as part of a mini-game. This was part of developer Cinemaware's attempt to make games more "cinematic".
Dragons dogma 1 had that, poorly written and forced where you're character slept with the princess regardless of wether or not you wanted a romance, lots of female players were bothered. Though you can just avoid the quest
@@BrightLord1823 a similar thing happened to me in the last DLC from neverwinter nights. The game forced a romance with the paladin lady in the ending slides even though I rejected every romance option with her, I didn't check but maybe unless you antagonize her you will always get the romance end with her if you treat her nice
@@BrightLord1823 She was willingly my pick in my first playthrough and I was _still_ bothered by that. Definitely one of the game's more jank moments.
@@NevisYsbryd yeah I personally picked Madeline for my romance, it's hilarious how she goes "I think we're meant to be together...
You'll have not but the finest wares here"
@@SuperRainbol that sucks, I never played Neverwinter nights but that's such a weird game design, what if you romanced someone else before her quest?
It's true that LGBTQ+ dating games were sidelined in Japan, but it should be mentioned that Nitroplus/Nitro+CHiRAL has been making BL visual novels since the early 2000s. They've had a popular release during most of the big shifts mentioned in the video (2005, 2012, and 2021 in particular). Their games might not have been as widely played as straight ones (and it's debatable whether they're closer to otome games), but they have a huge cult following! Both LGBTQ+ and BL romance games are probably in a renaissance rn, there are a lot of weird and interesting games being made!
!! I was just about to say this, it feels like a massive oversight to not mention BL or GL games at all and I kinda hate that Dream Daddy is the face of LGBT dating sims in this video lol
I think people not being very familiar with dating sims and visual novels is one of the reasons why DDLC became so popular. They were known enough for people to understand generally what it was parodying, but they weren't big enough that that kind of deconstruction was old news to them.
As a general rule, deconstructions of a genre tend to be most popular among people unfamiliar with the genre its deconstructing. The reason for that is pretty easy to intuit.... tropes exist specifically because they're good storytelling methods to achieve a specific result. Going out of your way to upend expectations for the shock factor, as is the point of genre deconstructions, tends to leave a less tightly written story.
Well also because free and they saw their favorite UA-camr play it like it.
@@dontmisunderstand6041Would you say that DDLC suffers due to being a deconstruction?
@@GhostLight06 As I alluded to before... that depends on what the player was wanting from the game. If the player comes in with no expectations, there's no harm done. If the player came in wanting to adore and care for those characters, DDLC will be a wholly unfulfilling experience. When the genre of the game is a plot twist unto itself, that's going to hurt the experience for a lot of people, regardless of how they find out about it.
I don't know if I'd say DDLC suffers due to it being a deconstruction, but I do know that I'd say it doesn't benefit from it.
@@dontmisunderstand6041What makes DDLC unfulfilling in the character department?
The best romance in gaming history was done in "To The Moon". Why was it so perfect? Because it was about them, not about me.
Yeah, that's another side to the genre that is very rarely explored. You don't need to have a blank slate protagonist, because the story doesn't need to have a self insert.
People so often compare Visual Novels to books, but how many books actually care about having the protagonist be a relatable person to the reader?
Prince of Persia Sands of Time mentioned in this video was a good example. I, the player, controlled the puzzles and the violence parts of the game but romance was happening by itself between the main characters. And I bought it, even as a kid. I didn't need to do anything strange and gamey for them to fall for each other, they were going through some shit so it was understandable
fancy way to show NeverKnowsBest was right when he said more or less ''people try to mask the shame of romance with something more acceptable''. You're experiencing another one but not yourself experiencing something isn't a way to mask a wish for fulfillment? Not acusing you or anything, just think NKB said was very accurate. And To The Moon is a great game
@@MTheoOA I wouldn't call that fancy. My point would be that most games try to make you experience by making your character a blank slate all the LI are inexplicably attracted to. A defined protagonist avoids this blatant problem. To make you experience romance in first person you would need a level of reactivity that simply has never been tried in bideo games so far.
To the Moon felt like a romance story beetwen two wooden planks for me, where they put sad music on the background to make you feel at least something.
I've been staring at my screen while my food sits in front of me for the past 10 minutes. Finally something worthy to watch, while eating!
Haha you're so real for this 😂
Bro's about to have a whole ass supper
@@hundvd_7 scratch that, 22 course meal with intermissions and smoke breaks in between. 😂
Enjoy your three and a half hour meal!
I love how sometimes you subscribe to a channel that doesn't upload a lot and then just when you forget that they exist they drop a banger video
Almost like there is a correlation
Otome fan to people interested definitely recommend: (Sports youth/Same creator as Sui Ishisa) Jack Jeanne. (Crime Noir) Bustafellows). (Psychological) Taisho x Alice.
Amidst a sea of comments, I nonetheless felt compelled to say how amazingly well done this is. I just finished watching the history of JRPGs video and immediately gravitated to this one as romance as a subgenre has been one of my absolute favorites, yet always seemed to be missing something. I really hung on every word you said and its amazing how nothing you had to say felt like needless padding for the sake of video length. These are the kinds of videos I hope would be used as references in school assignments. I'll certainly be sharing this with as many people as I can. Thank you!
There is an amazing 6 hour review of Tokimeki memorial available on UA-cam.
Tim Rogers sends his regards *DOOM shotgun sound effect*
by Action Button Reviews
And it's excellent
1:26:12 But, I think the dude knows...
@hundvd_7 yeah he does wasn't really aimed at the creator.
@@hellblazerjj only aimed at other people who didn't watch the video
Your conclusion mentioning that romance is considered something cringe/childish/secondary makes me think of several (25+ year olds!) friends that tell me they'd love to have a long term relationship like I have been in for 10+ years, when it actually takes a lot of literal work put into it for it to...work, and whenever the conversation goes towards these aspects they typically brush it off as going too far over companionship. I'm not gonna try to correlate cultural trends with video game development in a UA-cam comment, but perhaps a lot of people do need to reconsider how they even look at romance in general before judging the supposed wish fulfillment of romance in games - the truth is, there is a lot of wish fulfillment all around because we all unlearned (or are no longer taught properly) how to relate to other people. It's not unhealthy to engage in it, but it's no wonder it's a source of shame/negativity if you perceive that you wouldn't even know what the real thing looks like if it fell on your lap.
I have not watched the video yet, but based off of my own 5-year-old relationship, you are correct. Real and lasting relationships take time, effort, dedication, all things that might be hard or 'not fun' to put into a game.
But then in a more general sense we just focus too much on the chase.
Love is easy. A hard relationship is a relationship between people who want to be together despite not being a great fit for each other. And that dynamic is what we call romance.
Sorry bro but you've been in a relationship too long and are out of touch with single people now
@@Donovarkhallum That's very true actually and I'm very happy for it in a sense
Having been in two long-term relationships in my life I gotta say that it's so easy for it to work out when both people actively want for it to work out, lol. It does require a level of emotional intelligence from both partners and the ability to communicate clearly, but the best part is that when you start it only gets easier from there. There's never actually one right dialogue option to make the affection go up, but if you open up it usually leads to the good outcomes.
Feels to me like most people don't actually want an equal partner though, so they see a relationship as a chore with the only reward being sex. Which is kind of sad, but understandable, given the cultural landscape.
Romance is hard to simulate as it’s different to different people and not necessarily quantifiable in a decision tree. Also in the endgame stage the conversation usually just loops. Wait that *is* accurate! 😂
Comedy and fear are not easily quantifiable and very different for different people, but they have successful made plenty of games focused on these topics (and game-ified it).
They can experiment with different styles of romance gameplay, and players will find what resonates with them. Dialog trees are a lazy excuse at this point. Think about the dozens of interconnected mechanics a game will use to simulate fighting, tactical maneuvers, and abstract mental states.
@@arckinenso7615 True, but let's take fear in games. Imagine playing a horror game, with, I dunno, aliens on a ship. You turn around a certain corner and BAM an alien jumps on you and kills you! That's scary, you jump back in your chair and gasp! But the problem is, you now know that the alien is just around the corner, so the next time you just ready your shotgun and BAM, it's not scary anymore.
That's the main issue with romance in games, it just feels gamefied, since you can always just save and reload if you don't like a certain route, or learn the right answers....and while many horror games benefit from tech advancements, like randomly spawning enemies, the "dating simulator" kind of games are still stuck in the predetermined, predefined routes era.
@@Brekner 1) learning the surprises doesn't matter as long as the first playthrough is satisfying. Not every game needs "replay value" if it's priced appropriately.
2) If romance got more respect, it wouldn't be stuck on the archaic dialog tree "perfect route" gameplay. That's the point. They can innovate. Look at how action games use dozens of interconnecting mechanics to simulate the nuances of combat, including abstract mental states. With some ingenuity, we could do a lot more for romance gameplay. Make it genuinely deep and complex and rewarding. It'll never be comparable to the real thing, but that's true for every game genre.
@@Brekner
That's because it sucks if you fuck up. That's the point.
Your trying to say it's bad for someone to want to be liked. There is a difference between a game and reality still.
Nevermind that's part of the point that people wish they could have done it better IRL because you can't save. And even then you have Love Plus that gives multiple year spanning days to spend with a character and develop a relationship. The problem is THAT'S LONG AND HARD TO MAKE without Nintendo money to back it.
This man watched the entire six hour Tim Rogers review and STILL fell into the Shiori Fujisaki trap. Konami were some evil geniuses
The quality and editing just keeps getting better and better, such a great video!
I loved every part of it but feel sad now that games seemingly can't do romace right... hope we'll get there eventually tho ^^
I think there is a slight error about the conversation system in Amagami. The ratio of hearts and musical notes do not affect anything. You get a heart when the level increases, and that is why you only get musical notes when the level is at the maximum. However, in the developer's previous game Kimikiss, the balance between hearts and musical notes DO matter, since it is what controls if you go towards the love or friendship routes. In Amagami this is controlled by special events, instead.
The conversation system in Kimikiss also works in a much different way compared to Amagami. The player picks from a limited supply of conversation topics that can be modified to be more adapted to whoever you want to woo.
MAN, I wished Seiren didn't bomb.... it's been a long while since enterbrain wanted do another spiritual sequel. Last one was photokano and that was it... Seiren anime bombing basically cancels everything
I'm surprised the Sims didn't get a mention (or maybe it does I'm only an hour in, also I'm not good at listening maybe I missed it.) There's no romantic narrative per say but it's massive success and place in mainstream culture is probably somewhat due to the ability to simulate romance.
I was going to say the same, the disappointment in Hot Date when you get the table instead of the booth at the restaurant is on the same level as some of these games. You can't even have a conversation unless you share the same interests.
I expected that to come up too.
The title is somewhat misleading, I think: the video is less about "romance in video games" and more about "romance games". And The Sims, while able to be a vehicle for romantic stories through roleplay, is not a romance game by itself. It falls in the same trappings as Stardew Valley does: do the right list of actions enough times and you can get married then and there. It's a simulation of romantic love, one that needs a lot of mental efforts from the player to feel romantic
I had written a whole long-ass comment and posted it before realising to myself: "Wait, what about The Sims?" It's interesting that besides RPGs, the most prominent romance in games is in the context of the life sim genre. So it's up there with decorating a house, working a job, raising a family, etc. Which is why I've never enjoyed The Sims. Everything feels like a chore. Real life is already hard work enough. And although I wouldn't describe love and relationships as a chore, it is something that requires your constant effort and attention, so to exert more effort on it virtually somehow feels less satisfying than e.g. RPGs or even dating sims that have a good narrative.
@@No14210 The thing about The Sims is that, in order for you to get involved in its romance potential, you have to do the heavy lifting of roleplaying the stories you want to see. The base mechanics are very simplistic and come off as a faux-simile of a real world, so it's necessary to independently insert the needed context into what your sims are doing and how they're reacting
Mainstream games, RPGs and JRPGs just kinda include it like you mentioned, I always feel it's so cheap, but "there isn't that much alternative, so I guess this is what'll have to do" is something I always think. Tim Rogers actually mentions in his cyberpunk review that making a AAA game focused on relationships would be like inventing the new violence, and I'm inclined to agree. Whenever i get the itch to play something romantic, I usually just go with a japanese Visual Novel with multiple girls in it. Because romance is so subjective and there's so many ways to unfold a romance story, sometimes your favourite character just might not get the kinda story you want, so having multiple girls usually guarantees that there will be atleast 1 route you will enjoy. Usually these games have their own writer per character (though not always) so it makes it really easy for the routes to not be too similar. Thanks for the video, I enjoyed it. I guess it's time to finally go for Amagami and Tokimemo 2 after sitting on it for so long.
Would have love to see you play the entirety of Amnesia and what you thought of the plot twist and Ukyo.
You talked about the eventual progressiveness of romance games through western indie devs but never really touch upon the other Japanese sub genres, BL and Yuri, which I thought was a big missed opportunity.
Amagami looks so good, anime art style really ages better than Western games. Hell, even 90s anime art style still looks great as seen in Fields of Mystria.
I've always wanted someone to do a in depth video on this topic. Count on Never to release banger video after banger video. Great work!!
But can love bloom even on a battlefield?
Then she goes & marries Johnny!
@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426A HIDEO KOJIMA GAME!!!
@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 you’ve never played Metal gear solid have you?
No, me man, me find this GAY
When you are surrounded by grim, traumatised, filthy and flea ridden men in the trenches 24/7? Unlikely. 😂
Katawa Shoujo and RWBY are the two pieces of media that are directly responsible for saving my life by pulling me out of my years long suicidal depression spiral long enough for me to get help.
Fuck anyone who tries to write off fiction of any kind as invalid or pathetic, romance in games or attachment to characters in a show are not things to be ashamed of and the people who do that shit are assholes.
I often like to say that fiction isn't real, and that's what makes it more impactful.
Fun fact for those interested by Katawa Shoujo: it's free! It has its own website, and it was recently added to steam as well (though there is a patch to get the nsfw content added back in). This was the first visual novel I played, and the impact it's had on my life cannot be understated.
One of the most enjoyable and in-depth videos I've seen on this platform.
You know, I remember Josh Sawyer recently said most romance in games, at least wit hsay, party members, is often relatively just "check boxes". Some romances, like say, in Trails in the Sky, are well done.
That's a good way of putting it. I don't play many visual novels, but I have played many Western RPGs, and most romances in those games feel like a chore.
Yes, that includes Balder's Gate 3. I found that companion relationship system particularly frustrating.
One of the best parts of Trails’ romance stories is that the romantic elements hit you when you don’t expect them. Sometimes I think player choice has ruined the story beats that require them to be a bit more weak and disempowered.
TitS has a good romance cause its part of the story like with FFX
For the records, my introduction to dating sims was the secret mode of Fear & Hunger. Yes, that Fear & Hunger
What? Fear and hunger has a secret mode?
What? Fear and hunger has a secret mode?
Romance is just hard in general because it is a pretty complex set of emotions that create the feeling of love.
It’s one of the reasons most romantic media tend towards specific tropes that more easily encompass romance and form cultural conventions and expectations around romance. Doesn’t help that romance as a genre is ridiculously huge (romance can crossover into most other genres without disturbing their conventions) and a good chunk of western depictions stem from judeo-christian doctrines and courtly love of the Middle Ages, which itself is somewhat rooted in greco-roman depictions from antiquity.
The problem with romance in games is mostly that it’s an immersive experience much more so than a book, movie or song. It’s probably why most romance in games borrows from conventions of less immersive media, which tend to be more static. Romance itself is very much not static but most media are constrained in emulating the rather complex dynamics of human emotions and behaviors from moment to moment. Again that is much more obvious in games because they are immersive and have less room for the audience to fill things in.
Then there is the simple fact that gaming is very male dominated and romance has generally been associated with femininity and is still often regarded as an inferior genre, which is sometimes a little if not a lot ironic considering where it came from. Still today many men consider romance emasculating, which again is somewhat ironic.
I don't think it got mentioned but I think a fascinating case is that of Hunie Pop, a game that started out as much more romance and story focused but the dev changed gears to make it more about hooking up instead. Despite this, remnants of the original concept can still be deciphered here and there, like the girls' relationship with each other.
The sequel doubled down (literally I suppose) on the hook-up culture and people weren't as interested in it as the first game.
Didnt know that it was story focused at first. Now i want to play a Hunie Pop Visual Novel
Growing up I was obsessed with romance in video games, particularly being a girl and pursuing boys, and every time anything at all was released in English in this niche I played it. Wanting access to more dating game content was the core motivating factor for me to start learning Japanese. Now I'm an adult fluent in Japanese, and there's way too much for me to ever experience it all. Thanks for the video, it feels like it was also my history and made me realise how much being born in just the right time to experience all of this has made me who I am. Hell, my greatest accomplishment in life is having made my own romance game and my dream from here on out is to make more! And I am not ashamed of that in the slightest.
I always wanted to play Amagami and I now realize why.
All the characters look realistic. Almost everyone has black hair, and those that don't have brown.
They are also very relatable and down to the ground. Yeah, quirks are present, but it's charming, not annoying.
I don’t know what you mean, every 6th game in my steam exploration queue seems to be strongly invested in “romance”
He already made that video
@@AL-lh2ht I am aware. Its a joke, for, if nothing else, engagement and the algorithm
I was just watching a video essay about the evolution of Romantic Comedies in the Film industry and now I get to see this applied to video games. Very interesting because movie romantic comedies are very dominated by women whereas I think (at least this channel) will have a more male-oriented gaming audience. Excited to see the perspectives.
Nancy Meyers kitchens for that Mom's cooking franchise!
A reasonable effort, especially in the survey of the games in the genre. But when you look at all the problems of romance in games in despair, you forget about one key thing: How is this any different than romance entertainment in any other medium? Is it any harder than in, say, the best selling ebook genre, the trashy romance novel? How about movies, where the archetypes are typically as iron-clad as in anime? Because I cannot see any of the things that you find difficult in games to be inherently worse than in any of the other mediums where romance is everywhere
I love people who aren't into yandere talk about yandere. Reminds me of how batshit insane I am for loving it (as a fantasy, irl is a nightmare). Specifically amnesia and the doggie cage. Top tier Yan content 🤌
catherine wouldve been such a good inclusion in this video. i would consider it a romance game but it's also pretty gameplay heavy. really great video though! i've always loved dating sims but grew up only playing ones that were available on steam, so it was really cool to learn the history of them :)
Catherine is VERY interesting and would need a very large section in the video, or it's own video lol. It's not a dating sim, since you can only influence the ending, but rather a deconstruction of the romance genre in a movie-like format. It's a different demographic since Vincent is in his 30s and already has a gf. And the girls themselves are the conflict rather than being romance options. It's truly a beautiful game and I would have loved some kind of mention in this video
I'm surprised you didn't include a "playthrough" of Love Plus (not that there is an end), given that how it portrays romance is so well done, it made someone marry best girl, and is the only game that focuses almost entirely about the "after confession" life
I got this mentally conflated with Hate Plus, especially considering what you've said could apply pretty well with that too.
All other points aside, I love that whenever NKB needs to cut away for a second, his go-to for this is the Mortal Kombat bisection clip. Drink every time it shows up.
If you can't be whole, you can at least take other characters apart.
You know a channel is good when there is a big "dopamine hit" when you see they released a new video and it's long.
I am always so excited when he uploads. 100% quality content
As for western games. I'm a bit surprised that the Sims wasn't mentioned. One of the main focuses of the game is to create a family and romance is one of the "tools" to achieve that. And there are lots of mods to make it a bit more realistic than what's in the base game.
The Sims is a virtual doll set. Romance results from the mind of the player not the narrative, characters, or the mechanics. The game explores romance to the degree the player wants it to through imagination and internal roleplay.
as someone who read a shit ton of visual novels, i think you shouldn't have focused on visual novels so much. Visual novels often use romance as a vehicle for the story. It's a shame Kanon defeated you (dw, it defeated me a well), because it's possibly the best example of what i mean on this list. That being said, other Key visual novels also do a greater job at using romance as a vehicle for story. Rewrite in particular is amazing about it. Clannad uses it for the first part of the game, and then makes that part irrelevant, because the choice is made for you, and you're now stuck for the next 150h exploring the "happily ever after" - something japanese romance-focused media rarely do.
Visual novels as a medium are highly conductive to romance stories, BUT, in my experience, i didn't find romance specifically to be the driving force behind me choosing one gal or the other. The story is often one, but more than that, "i like this character, therefore i want to see them more" was the way. There are a lot of visual novels with gameplay (such as eiyuu senki) where the game's story is so grand in scope, that romance becomes just an unlock and an afterthough, and the primary form of that unlock is just giving you more scenes with a character, that are almost entirely disconnected from the story. It's not intertwined, it's simply there because it's expected. I also think this can be a solution to poor discoverability - play the game that has a story that interests you, not the game that evokes "i wanna f*ck this picture". This is how i discovered Grisaia series, and it stuck as one of the best VN experiences i had in my life, despite the theme of romance in this game being very weirdly handled (only the first game letting you "choose the gal", with the second one being a kinetic novel, and the third one being equally problematic to descript) and very weirdly depicted (Makina route...)
On the other hand, it's also worth to pay some attention to western games focused on romance. Stuff such as "it takes two". It's a much more down-to-earth representation of "looking for love" than the Japanese image of what romance is or should be. Both are equally fantastical (It takes two due to it's setting, and visual novels due to their impossible depiction of circumstances), but the case of westerners focusing on the topic is much more in-depth, while the japanese depiction is a "wish fulfillment", as you called it.
It's also important to remember that visual novels emerged out of a cultural and historical need for wish fulfillment, while in western games, it is very often just an exploration of the topic, not a focus.
You know what? I think I'm simply happy to see someone go out of their way to research and actually play all these dating sims and visual novels. This is a genre I have a lot of fondness for, so this is very pleasant to see. This is right up there with Action Button's video on Tokimeki Memorial.
I REALLY wished he played the other storylines in Katawa Shoujo. Four of the five girls' stories are heartfelt, charming, sad at times, but ultimately fairly lightweight...
And then there's Rin's, which is one of the most emotionally complex and devastating pieces of fiction I've ever come across. And not in a shallow tear-jerker way -- but by exploring a shockingly complex person and relationship in a nuanced way that I've never seen before. It genuinely made me feel empty for days afterward, and is the sort of experience that changed my brain chemistry.
It also singlehandedly advocates for the existence of visuals novels, by allowing the story to have a focus on visuals and dialogue that books can't have, a length and depth that movies can't have, and a single-minded focus that TV shows and other game genres can't have.
I think it's the most polarizing storyline because it's not feel-good or wish fulfilment, and it's also the hardest to find and get the good ending for. I'm also not saying it's perfect -- the script could definitely use some tightening up. But if you've ever gotten emotionally entangled with someone remotely like Rin in real life, it hits in ways that I've never seen a piece of fiction do.
I don't know how to feel about deep cuts like Our Life being here, a game that deserves FAR more attention than it's gotten so far... but the fact that there is an entire western games studio which solely makes visual novels with lesbian romances didn't get a single mention. Studio Elan's work is amazing and they should definitely be checked out by anyone looking for WLW romance specifically ;p
Man, you can't be hitting me with a piano cover of 'I really want to stay at your house' in the conclusion so close to the edgerunners anniversary.
Weird how in a video prominently featuring the only game that ever made me cry (Katawa Shoujo), that's what got me emotional.
Amagami also had a great Anime which resolved the mutiple route thing very well by giving each Girl her own route instead of the usual trying to do all and have an open ending or the rarer choosing one to win.
Your experience with Tokimemo is really interesting, for me it wound up being the opposite, despite having watched Tim Rogers' video on it like 3 times, and despite heeding his advice to ignore Shiori and just play for fun and go for the girl you like the most (for me it was Ayako, I think she's cool) I wound up completely screwing up despite only having like 7 girls my character knew and got the worst ending where the protag cries himself to sleep at night because literally no one loves him and he failed his college entrance exams despite what I thought were my best efforts to try and succeed moderately at school and get Ayako to not think I was jackass...
I'd also just like to say that Shiori is the most I've ever feared a videogame character, Tim wasn't lying when she said she haunts every playthrough of the game, running into her in the hall made me clench my jaw after being greeted by her constantly disappointed face which felt pretty similar to how I imagine my irl friends would react to finding out that I'd hypothetically been living in a literal dumpster for the past year. Her subtle disappointment by how far her friend had fallen made me feel really sad and awkward.
It's simple really romance isn't a game you win. Is more of a don't mess up your life and hope to meet the right person. Which is why prescripted romances in games (as character flavour, ) work.
This!
To add to this, I think another issue unique to games can their greatest appeal in interactivity.
Romance as a literary genre is very much wish fulfilment. That's for many its core appeal, and its tropeyness/elements which turn some people off are just another way that can be expressed (ContraPoints made a really interesting video about this, where she begins with Twilight and then analyses how specifically feminine wish fulfilment in romance novels has been judged/what its sources can be)
We approach romance in gaming with a very similar lens, because all of these are stories. They're not necessarily meant to all be realistic, the edges can be sanded off for convenience and appeal.
But games' unique element, interactivity, can create a very conflict in how a story is written and how its perceived - the conflict between a prewritten personality and the self-insert.
Prewritten personality makes it much easier to write a story with convincing progression of growing closeness. You can understand why this person is attracted to this other person/people. It's like a book.
Interactivity introduces problems because it's unpredictable and because no game has the time, resources, and space to code all possibilities in.
Players don't approach romance without the gameification of it being a big factor. They learn the right words and right presents and right activities. But there is something performative. It's, like you said, done to fill a bar, or at least can be. And when emotional attachment becomes a number, raising that number is the focus, not what that means.
Another one, though a highly subjective one, is the "everyone is you-sexual" factor which can break immersion for some folks. Especially with blank slates, but also present in scripted characters sometimes, is the question of "what about you made them like you? (besides the point raising)"
Rarely is anyone in real life so charming that any person, regardless of gender, orientation, and background, will want to be their partner.
So when in a game you enter a setting and are surrounded by 6-12 eligible bisexuals all ready to mingle, it can take away from the experience.
Cassette Beasts, a game I love for its gameplay and fun story, has optional romances for the 5 human battle partners. One of these is confirmed in universe to be bi, but mechanically, all of them are. And as much as I love this game, the dialogue options in it are pretty much always "statement 1" and "a slight variation of statement 1" which doesn't leave a lot of place for characterising the blank slate in any way.
I am not against this, by any means. It's wonderful that people can explore their ingame crushes and that queerness is allowed to be explored and cherished. But I do think it's worth examining too if we're to develop this sort of stuff.
I do think there is place for good love stories in gaming. Slay the Princess is considered by some the most realistic depiction of long relationship, with you and the princess acting in different dynamics depending on your choices, which can reveal what sort of attitudes both hold and in turn what can be done to fix it. There's a video essay on that i'd also recommend if you fancy a listen~
@@sharoo_draws I guess it should be less points raising and more shifting the story in a multiple choice way. This video does talk about a game where other characters can lose interest if you're spending time with another.
I just thought maybe there should be red herrings. people who will never be interested in you.
I've just got to the Amagami part and that isn't a romance, it's a manipulators fantasy.
@@iridescent6685
Romance.
That's what romance is.
Saying the right thing and "trying to not fuck it up" like you said is winning. That's still a win condition.
Including the Action Button clip was awesome 12/10
That slow reveal of Yuki in the Tokimeki Memorial section was absolutely hilarious.
Yay! It took me only 3 weeks to finish watching the video. Not that I'm complaining. It's always nice to know that you have some more of that cool video to watch now and then when you have the mood. Thanks for your effort, NeverKnowsBest. Your videos are ones of the most pleasant to watch at one's own pace, and your topics never cease to attract
As far as the playlist goes, you take generously from Russian romantics, and I absolutely love it.
Well played, NeverKnowsBest. You talk for over three hours about a subject I would struggle to care less about... and I know I'm going to listen to it all, because I find you interesting. Magnificent bastard.
This video actually made me realize how hungry I am to play Romance games again, I used to be so into visual novel games but as I grew up I was basically bullied out of liking them because I would try to earnestly explain to my friends at the time how good games like Narcissu 1 and 2, shuffle, DDLC, and Katawa Soujo were and they would just laugh at me and make it a running joke that I was sad and alone. So I associated the genre with getting bullied and being sad. But this video helped me reconnect with those feelings and make me realize that those people were jerks, and that I don't even talk to those people anymore anyway, and don't care what they or anyone else thinks, and I'm going to play the games I want to play because I want to play them. It doesn't matter if other people think that I'm cringe or lonely or whatever. The games mean something to me and I want to play them. So I will.
This video also showed me a grand showcase of all the amazing visual novels that I missed out on in my time away from the genre, I've already added like 4 new games to my wishlist and I'm not even a third of the way done with the video.
Videos like this are the reason Neverknowsbest is my favorite youtuber, genuinely. His videos resonate with you because of their genuineness and how thorough of a think piece each of his videos are.
So thank you, Neverknowsbest, I hope you see this and know that your work is valued.
this is definitely a video for me omg.. I've been a huge fan of otome games particularly since I was a 14 yo teen on an iphone purchasing character routes with my dad's credit card claiming they were ibooks..still one of my favorite genres ever! I played a ton of the ones on psvita and later switch. It's the perfect blend of reading, romance, gorgeous art and voice acting! My favorite combination of things. Otome games have such amazing stories, they are really top notch!
edits as i continue watching: you dont actually need to approach in girls side story 3, i was able to get the best ending with guys without it (at least on the psp version) and Emi from Katawa Shoujo is BEST GIRL❤ The only male oriented VN i played and finished.
Hatoful Boyfriend... oh my god it had such a chokehold on me, amazing story honestly! its rly subversive and most ppl didnt notice it cus of how silly it all is😂
Not me just passively listening then Chappell Roan gets played in the background. Liked just for that! 😅