I am giving away Secret Lair Commander decks plus classic Commander precons on Whatnot this December 5 at 12:00pm Pacific! Get $15 credit to spend when you create a new account using my code at www.whatnot.com/invite/tolariancollege and join me for the Tolarian Community College Winter Commander Precon Giveaway!
@@moomoocat2708 The counter I'd give to that's is when is Thassa's Oracle ever played in any deck that's not running an infinite? Again I get why people are upset but if you want to keep policing Oracle to only be in high powered pods you don't put it in a Jank deck like this 😂
The art is good but it isn't even applied to all the wincon cards so this just doesn't even feel worth it for the art, I honestly wish it was a shrines deck with special shrine art
Wanted to give some corrections of The Prof's misunderstandings on several cards in the deck, not grief, just reading the cards, I do agree that the deck plays like a garbage fire. Love ya prof
It honestly seems like a regular secret lair but then they realized they could throw in an additional 90 cards without special art and sell it for much more money.
I feel like this is similar to that double sided deck they did. Just kind of found a some what similar theme and just grabbed a bunch of randoms in it to make a deck
Kinda feels like this was originally a tanuki trickster drop with the 10 cards that Hasbro decided would sell more as a commander deck ( our market research shows... yadda yadda yadda...holiday sales....yadda yadda yadda...pasr performsnce of decks...). So R&D had to slap together a theme to go with the cards they already commisioned art for, which could explain the scattershot nature of this drop.
This is a perfect deck for hanging out with friends who happen to be playing EDH. Its the most casual of casual decks, and sometimes thats okay. Maybe not for $150 though.
15:19 Thankfully, it's an end step trigger not an upkeep trigger, so you don't have to wait for each of your opponents to have a turn, but it's still a bit of a long shot. The deck also contains Path of Ancestry with a commander that has no creature types, so it's really just a cheap 5 color tapped land. I have bought one because I do like the art and I own the other 4, so I'll have it for completeness, but I'm not overly enthused by the deck list.
I run Biovisionary in a somewhat controlly Simic deck and I'm honestly surprised how reliably it works. Copy spells and effects have become a lot cheaper and more versatile over the years, and then there is the populate mechanic which is stitched onto some usable spells. So you have a lot of cards that are not just waiting around on your hand to copy the one wincon.
@@Volkbrechtbut you actually run cards with the intention of reliably copying biovisionary. it's not very good win condition but it will work if you build your deck correctly... but not in this pile
@@m1gr3nA Exactly so. It's not a terrible card, but in this deck it requires you to have biovisionary stick and then a single very specific sorcery resolve and the tokens stay around until end step. There's not even any cards in the deck helping you defend it. Much like liliana's contract wouldn't be awful in a demons deck, but in this you are required to have liliana's contract and maskwood nexus, plus a board of creatures and the only real defense you have to make it stick is clever concealment to keep them phased out until your next turn.
@@arcbinder i would expect removal targeted at original biovisionary in response to replication rather than let it resolve and deal with more of them afterwards. it's safer. :) there is a few ways to protect/recur the combo but again they are not good ones except last one: alseid, shalai/ascendancy (i mean if someone tried to bolt it...), sun titan, ultimatum, concealment. no progenitor mimic and other clones, no silence or veil effects. no graveyard recursion. no counterspels. awful. poor tanukis. they deserved better deck.
Watched it in action on Elder Dragon Hijinks and I think it performs better than you expect. As anyone who plays casual commander knows, being unassuming and not much of a threat is a good way to survive to late game, which is where you are more likely to pull out one of these wincons. It’s also kind of silly to see people theorizing that it was just thrown together, this is a pet deck of Daniel Holt who has been piloting variations of this deck for years.
problem being, even though being unassuming can help you last longer the deck doesnt functionally prevent the other 3 players from winning. so even at a casual commander level the table very well could lose long before you get you jank win to go off. especially in a precon format because precons dont run much interaction so you cant even count on your opponents to prevent each other from winning
@@kyonizuka am I wrong in thinking the best way to prevent someone else winning is to simply win yourself? Not every deck is going to sweat it out for a world title. In the right hands , just like any other deck, it feels like this could be a fun, dynamic stack of cardboard
Thanks for pointing out it's his deck. It felt a bit like a real deck where the designer had to cut corners for the sake of card value. Seems like that is pretty likely what happened here. More than anything this play possum style is not my style. I like feeling like I've built up and "earned" my wins, not just waiting 7 turns until my opponents are out of answers and I can sneak a wincon onto the battlefield.
This feels like a deck I'd build myself. It'd get played a few times, we'd all laugh, then it'd be retired. As a precon where Wizards is in on the joke, it feels like a very lame corporate thing. Do not want, and also no longer want to build it myself.
There are ways to build it so it works well, but it cost a lot and need to cut a lot of win cons to focused on the easier to synergize a whole deck with. Like, cutting maze's end help a lot for the mana base XD
This is the first secret lair I have purchased. I made myself wait a day instead of impulse buying and it was still there. It’s got everything I like to play - cute creatures, bullshit win cons, and the fact that it’s a mess to play with is pretty on brand for me.
Honestly saaaaame. I picked up miracle worker because of the fact that my win con is just having so much options to play and playing big cards. It just feels bad that this deck as a precon seemingly isn’t cohesive. But just like any precons, upgrade it a little and have even more fun! And I love the art so much! Hope you get enjoy it!
I'd have been happier with a completely nonfoil option, but this was something I was going to get. Got one ordered and it's for tearing apart. Also, Shrine tokens are freaking expensive. Not that you need them to play but they're like $5-10.
Yah as someone who loves enchantments I love so many of these cards in the deck and the tanuki art is so cute. Also there are some decent reprints in it
Yeah, the deck is a lot like my favorite garbage pile (5 color charm/modal spell tribal 'spellslinger' with a Gate subtheme to actually, y'know, win) but somehow even worse constructed. But with very little investment I can stick the pieces into other decks, and I think even this deck could be made into something good by being less memetastic. Drop the least likely win conditions, add some enchantment and land tutoring so you can get the impactful enchantments/Maze's End quickly, and you COULD make something pretty decent. Maybe get some actual shrines in there that help with them so you can have a Go-Shintai deck that is at least different than the usual All The Shrines pile.
Honestly if they wanted a more coherent deck, they should've cut the number of wincons in half, make Kynaios and Tiro the face commander (since that card helps you with card advantage), and cut the few black cards in the deck + the harder to obtain wincons.
That’s why i believe that it shoulda just been a normal secret lair product to begin either Dx they just slapped some cards in that works with each precon without choosing a lane and called it a day
While _this_ decklist is very bad for an alt-win-con-tribal deck, there are a lot of cards here that are useful, not only in such a deck but in EDH in general. I'd say it _is_ a good start point, and can be upgraded to be a _functional_ alt-win-con-tribal deck somewhat easily. Also, the 5c Go-Shintai is the commander WotC chose because of its first ability to recur dead enchantments, since a majority of "you win the game" cards are enchantments. I do agree that there should've been strictly 20 or more cards with the words "you win the game", and not the cop-outs of commander damage, combat damage, or mill. I'm also a huge fan of WotC _finally_ using the Nyx frame on _all_ enchantments, and there's a _lot_ of enchantment reprints in this deck with that frame now. As for making a functional alt-win-con-tribal deck: there's 30 legal, possible "you win the game" cards for such a deck, though a few can be ruled out as requiring too much investment: Hedron Alignment and Battle of Wits don't work in EDH; Gallifrey Stands requires 13+ Doctors and Luck Bobblehead requires 7 Bobbleheads which would be a lot of deckspace for only one win-con each; Near-Death Experience, Barren Glory, and Azor's Elocutors are some of the hardest ones to meet, so can be excluded. Most of the rest can be built around in ways that the rest of the deck can work towards multiple at once, so that the non win-con cards are all versatile yet still individually strong. Even the "if you have 8 unlocked doors among Rooms you control" one works, since it only requires 4 total Room cards, and some Rooms are very strong and/or work towards other win-cons. I'd say Rukarumel or Marina Vendrell would be good commander options, other than Go-Shintai. Marina has card draw that also works with the heavy enchantment count, and Rukarumel works towards Liliana's Contract and even Gallifrey Stands.
@@kozad86 Trouble with cutting one or more colors is you start losing large numbers of "you win the game" cards and/or support cards that work towards the remaining ones you do have left. Alt-win-con tribal isn't meant to be cEDH. It's a deck that is very obviously not going to go off often, but is fun to play. It's like Chandra tribal in that way. People build it because it's a fun and unique build, not because it's going to win every game.
this is normal 30$ secret lair with 120$ of cardboard padding. i get that those cards are useful but ypu need to build a lot of decks to find place for all of them so they are just padding.
You know what. I wasn't originally planning on modifying the deck at all. I don't own a single unmodified precon. But now that you mention Rakrumarel and Gallifrey Stands, I am tempted.
I really love that every couple years when I've gotten back into magic youve been here to provide insight and advice 😊 love you channel, your work, and your candor. Thank you 😄
Kinda funny...even though it's not. Prof: 'WotC could do this or that or hey, at least that.' Wotc: 'Yeah whatever, we just do less with literally every new release and sometimes even charge more. LuL'
It is actually available, so that’s a win and I only waited 14 minutes yesterday so this was actually pretty good considering(the bar is so low after the Marvel drop)
there wasn't a queue on this one when i took a look at it. i once built a deck around packing as many win conditions into a deck as i could... it was scion of the ur dragon. which was part of the win conditions. however, 20 ways to win, without 20 cards in it that say "Win the game" on seems like a misfire.
Why do you even give them still your money? They literally put the Marvel Drop into the hands of scalpers just to make a quick buck. The "bugs" were well known by WotC. Don't be a mindless consumer. Just print the cards or order proxies.
Yes. This deck feels like it was put together by someone who just looks at cards and thinks the card by itself is great and doesn’t consider anything else. We all have one or two of those at the LGS. 🫠
@@VolmortantoHaving buil a win con theme deck, I can see the appeal of having this commander if you focuse on tutoring your wincons anchentments in your grave to bring them back in instant speed. The token ability is irrelevent and pretty much any 5 colors commander would be a better fit in this particular deck list.
7:18 I very much would have preferred an entire nonfoil deck. I don’t really like foils in my decks and even do 1:1 trades with my friends for their basic lands to get rid of my foil ones
I've built a deck based on the theme. It's not a deck you want to play with if you want to win, but it surely fun to see the face of your opponents when you become the biggest threat in a single turn. Still upgrading it every year and find new ways to enjoy it! Beside, i do understand the appeal of having that particular commander, but I'd make ways to go grab the enchantments I want into the graveyard and bring it back in instant speed. But this deck is not worth it. Use your money to build it completely from scratch, with the win cons you want and the way you want it to be played.
Don't forget about putting Pariah on a creature that you put the Darksteel Mutation on, that's another way to "win". But we get Sun Titan, so that is the only win I need. Also, to be fair, the Biovisionary is an end of turn trigger, so you don't have to wait a turn cycle. Tauren Mauler + Rite of Replication wouldn't work for Liliana's Contract since they need different names. Nexus is the only combination that gets you there. Go-Shintai + Kicked Rite is like 30 shrines tokens, right?
15:20 Actually, Biovisionary will trigger at the beginning of the end step, so if you targeted it with a kicked Rite of Replication, you don't have to wait for everyone else at the table to take a turn before it wins you the game.
I was talking to my playgroup about how a deck dedicated to alt win-cons is actually pretty cool, but that if you have 4-5 of these already lying around you can make a much better version of it yourself.
They should make 20 Ways Wizards Screwed Everyone. At the back of my head, it would be extremely expensive because it contains the following: a couple of Companions, a vanilla Chronicles legend, a proxy 30th anniversary Power Nine card, a Nexus of Fate, Rick from Walking Dead, a sticker card, a Marvel superhero and random Reserved List proxies.
As a huge fan of tanuki's and a lot of money to usually spend, and in need of an excuse to play Go-Shintai, I think this is perfect for me to disassemble for its fun cards, and rebuild for Go-Shintai!
Daniel Holt said he'd been working on this deck for a year on Elder Dragon Hijinks. I don't think he's lying about that, but also I've seen first drafts that are more coherent and fun than this. It doesn't instill confidence in the design team.
I LOVE The art of the tanuki cards. But yeah i wish it was 20 tanuki art cards. Then the price would have felt plausibly right. But rn it feels nuts Im probably just gonna proxy the whole thing tbh. Hecking secret lair things…
I have actually had pretty good luck with an even more scattered version of this deck type. The trick is chaos, have so many wincons ticking up at once, that it becomes very difficult for a player to try and stop you without slowing down their own advancement. Simic ascendancy may be a good target, but you can deal with that or the several modified creatures that will swing in, (maybe even commander). The give is often, "sure you can handle ONE of my wincons, but if you try to handle the other three I have in action, the resources you will have to forfeit would make you an easy target to the other players." Opponent's threat assessment, Politicking, and Slight of Hand Distractions are as important to this kind of deck as any one of the setup cards. That said: Dismantle on a Darksteel Reactor is a much better wincon than Triskaidekaphile, there are wincons that help ensure that even if you are getting beat up, its all to your benefit, (Mortal Combat, Near Death Experience, Laboratory Maniac) and Mycosynth Lattice would help immensely with the Mechanized production/Biovisionary/Hellkite Tyrant setup Finally, definitely could have used a Doubling Season reprint.
Prof and team, you saved me! I'm looking forward to this drop and missed the notification email but I was still able to pick one up because you released your video 😁
Allright, but why would you spend $149.99 for that kind of deck. People are going to spend that much only because of the exclusive art and the cards' retail value; for anyone with a brink of sanity, actually playing with the deck is only going to be an afterthought.
I'm so glad I didn't buy this. I was thinking of buying it just to play it in commander games, and you breaking this down for me professor as a fairly new player is incredible insightful. I truly thank you for saving me money.
I think a shuffle up and play video with only secret layer decks would be really fun! I believe there is 5 decks so we could have every one except the heads I win, tails you lose deck since we have already seen it perform on shuffle up and play.
Even though the price tag sucks id like to point out all the secret lair decks are all currently worth well over what they were originally selling for so you can argue that long term their is a lot of value. As for playabilty ive played they hell out of all the secret laor decks and they all do fairly well. Even the cute to brute comes out of nowhere woth wins.
To me it's another puzzle piece, ontop of the Foundations Starter Collection and all the solid cards of the last few sets, for a newcomer to build a very profound deck right away.
My own experience was fairly good, I had forgotten until late in the day and ordered at 5 pm MST AZ, I ordered two decks and the whole affair took less than three minutes.
As someone who crafts decks for fun, this deck *feels* like it was made by someone either inexperienced or by AI. The flashy "20 ways to win" is cool and all, but is really only brought to light by single-cast cards like Felidar Sovereign, Revel/Riches, etc. Usually when people craft decks, they craft a route to get to that wincon which is consistent with synergetic cards that work together as a failsafe. For example, a common and straight-up win-con for casual players would be Exquisite Blood + Sanguine bond. Well, what if you don't have one or the other? You'll need an alternative way to get there, such as having Exquisite Blood but lacking Sanguine. Now you need another creature such as Sanctum Seeker + another attacking vampire that sets off both triggers. From here you can mix/match creatures to achieve the same result. The deck works because it's WUBRG, but it doesn't feel so good to play when it comes to cheap routes of winning. And, as for the topic of "is it worth it", and as you've stated. Yeah, plugging the entire decklist into Moxfield and checking it out at TCG Player, the deck is a good $225+ in value for only $150. It is unfortunate they didn't full-art the entire deck, let alone full-foil.
The "alt win con deck" is very buildable, but you generally want to stick to around 5 alt win cons, and want to pick ones that steer you toward similar strategies. 20 is way too many to ever make a cohesive deck that has a decent chance of winning with any of its wincons. That said I have an alt win con deck and I love the Tanuki art and this wasn't sold out earlier today so I got one...
i think the deck is actually kinda good, maybe. some wincons like demons are questionable, and the mazes end introduces a weird spot of slow mana. but there does seem to be decent mana fixing and a few ways to get a lot of mana that would make up for tap lands if you survive. as mentioned the win cons are counters, lifegain, artifacts, and mana dumps. gates arent the worst with the new non-ravnica gates, and is the only non monocolored way to get a lot o mana with only lands (like cabal, or nyx). artifact wincons are overly easy in commander particularly with treasures. both of those add the the mana sink wincons, like helix, paying for counters, or targeted mill. there are multiple ways to win by putting like 20 counters on a creature (like your commander, in addition to the obvious ones). while the life gain has obvious wincons, i think of it more that it just adds to the pillowfort. similar with all the draw, you can win with 13 cards, or you can win cause you constantly draw cards like a blue deck. ultimately this feels like its played like a hugs deck, where youre left alone until you eventually win, except instead of hugs you just feign ignorance of playing a bad deck. i think the issue then comes from the wincons, as anyone whos played second sun knows, if you play one you will be targeted, but do you have enough wincons and pillow for pieces to survive the removal? i think you do. but when you play the second game and everyone knows what to expect, do you have fast enough mana to build youre fort because they have no hug based reason to keep you alive? i dont think so.
This is my deck idea, and I demand royalties from WotC! Seriously though, I have been playing a similar deck for a while, and have done fairly well with it. It has many of the same cards, but I've swapped some of them out because they just don't work. So far, I've won with Maze's End multiple times, Approach of the Second Sun (the only basics I have in the deck are one each of the Amonkhet full arts, and I deliberately played a plains to cast this the second time. Legendary!), Heliod/Ballista combo, Near Death Experience, and I think Mechanised Production or Revel in Riches. My plan is to win with each card if I can. I've also got Mayael's Aria (came close once), Happily Ever After, Barren Glory (I REALLY want to do this one), Triskaidekaphile, Felidar Sovereign, and Azor's Elocutors. My commander is Child of Alara, but I rarely get it out. The deck doesn't run many creatures, so I usually only get it out if I draw a trigger such as Ruthless Knave. By that time, I may already have enough lands to begin winning with Maze's End so it's a useful deterrent. I've got all the Gates, and often I can search for Gond Gate, and maybe even a cheeky Amulet of Vigor.
Good news for people who want it, it’s still available! I’m not planning on buying it though. It’s just a bunch of cards that barely work together. Plus the price is too high. I do like the cute artwork though.
I know you make good dramatizations based on corporate greed, and the reality is that if your on-screen ideals were truly the business model it would be just getting by, but I truly wish you can one day buy wizards of the coast. How freaking awesome would that be. I'd buy everything you produce.
I 100% think this and pretty much all the secret lair decks have been art buys and not actual deck buys. To me this is a secret lair for the 10 cards that have new art.
This deck sounds very similar to my Kynaios & Tiro of Meletis Deck where it has 8 ways to win instead of 20 (not including combat) and I added group hug cards so that I could help other players out while I try to reach my "win the game" cards.
I use to play kenrith as a win con deck and their was a fair share of issues but honestly kenrith works for that style so much better then this entire deck works at all
I went ahead and grabbed one since I don’t have any of the other SLD decks. I was mostly after the reprints and the art. I have a feeling this will probably sell out within a couple of days, which is kind of shocking considering these usually sell out within hours.
I feel like they should have gone in a group hug kind of direction with this Group hug typically will allow you to draw enough cards for your "cards in hand" win cons, if you add in a smothering tithe you can acquire artifacts to win with those win cons, and it gives the deck a clear goal, help everyone out..... Until you get your trump card/s
I got it not for value, but because I love wacky, silly decks in commander. I don't really have my own yet, so I figured why not? I don't plan on changing it, and hope to one day fill out the checklist. I like fun, and I'm not sorry
I need to check if my brother still has his old Alternate Wincon deck. Updating that with some of the more recent cards (many of which are reprinted here) could be fun.
Factoring inflation into the mix, the term "bulk" should include up to $3 cards imo. This would give a far more accurate value take on Wotc products and what they are actually selling us.
I figured there were was only one way a card with 20 win-the-game conditions would go, which was tripping over itself with half the win conditions not having enough support to effectively work.
i mean.. i'd say making an opponent mill out, run out of lives or frustrate them to the point they scoop are all valid and different ways to win and shouldn't be counted as "alternate"
Something to note, because of the short/messed up printing of the shrine tokens for Go-Shintai, a basic one is still $6+. Having some foil ones bumps the value up probajly close to $10 more or so
Studio Ghibli's children's movie Pom Poko featured Tanukis with giant balls... and it is rated PG. Wizards has NO EXCUSE to not include the giant balls of wealth-blessing goodness.
I am giving away Secret Lair Commander decks plus classic Commander precons on Whatnot this December 5 at 12:00pm Pacific! Get $15 credit to spend when you create a new account using my code at www.whatnot.com/invite/tolariancollege and join me for the Tolarian Community College Winter Commander Precon Giveaway!
You're missing Angels deck when talking about the price comparison.
Professor. Can you create a video on how to upgrade this terrible precon for battle. I want to have something to bring to the commander table.
Wizard's really didn't want to give us a Thassa's Oracle reprint huh?
I understand the gripe but Thassa's oracle in this deck makes no sense; especially when it's aimed at a casual table
@@peeporiot9948 i mean if they dont have a way of emptying their deck thoracle isnt really that big of an issue
Let’s be honest. That would make this deck-which is already horrendous-even more terrible.
@@moomoocat2708 The counter I'd give to that's is when is Thassa's Oracle ever played in any deck that's not running an infinite? Again I get why people are upset but if you want to keep policing Oracle to only be in high powered pods you don't put it in a Jank deck like this 😂
It got reprinted in Mystery Booster 2. I pulled four of them.
The decklist looks so scatterbrained and unfocused.
Art is lovely.
I'm trying to figure out if this or the 'Cute or Brute' deck is less cohesive.
I don't even particularly like the art, tbh
The art is good but it isn't even applied to all the wincon cards so this just doesn't even feel worth it for the art, I honestly wish it was a shrines deck with special shrine art
The mana base is disgusting
Feels like they want even the pilot of the deck to be surprised when they win!
@15:56 Rite of Replication on Taurean Mauler does not win with Liliana's Contract. They need to have different names.
Correct, you need EXACTLY Maskwood Nexus, I believe.
@kylesmith7413 yeah Maskwood Nexus is the only way to get demons in the deck
Because so many people have also agreed that the 20 Way to Win deck is just a pile of cards, I think it won't sell out for a week or more.
Which makes it all the weirder that this was designed and play tested for over a year by one of the lead designers at wotc.
it'll sell out immediately anyway
@@pug8714 and yet it's not sold out yet
@@pug8714 Its not even on low Stock
I was proven wrong it seems. I'm surprised scalpers didn't rush it
Wanted to give some corrections of The Prof's misunderstandings on several cards in the deck, not grief, just reading the cards, I do agree that the deck plays like a garbage fire. Love ya prof
It honestly seems like a regular secret lair but then they realized they could throw in an additional 90 cards without special art and sell it for much more money.
I honestly want the cards more than the precon, sucks they don’t have that option.
@@Iwatoda_Dorm Agreed.
I feel like this is similar to that double sided deck they did. Just kind of found a some what similar theme and just grabbed a bunch of randoms in it to make a deck
I have never wanted something and not wanted something so bad at the same time
Only just getting into Magic, this channel is really helping.
Yah, Prof. has helped me a lot, and his discord community has been so nice when I play commander
Welcome to the club. Most of secret lair is just a money grab so unless you REALLY like the art, you can skip most of their drops.
Welcome to the game!! This channel is a hella good resource for new players as it’s the channel I found first when I got into magic
@@chefnelsonsbbq the pixel art set was too good to pass up :P
Enjoy the ride and hope you find a solid group to play with regularly!
Kinda feels like this was originally a tanuki trickster drop with the 10 cards that Hasbro decided would sell more as a commander deck ( our market research shows... yadda yadda yadda...holiday sales....yadda yadda yadda...pasr performsnce of decks...). So R&D had to slap together a theme to go with the cards they already commisioned art for, which could explain the scattershot nature of this drop.
not surprised... less effort and higher cost is the staple of Wizards modus operandi
The designer of the deck (can't remember his name) actually said he's been working on this project for a year in a Commander at home episode
Knowing wizards it was probably an animal crossing beyound deck featuring Tom Nook but Nintendo didn't take the offer
This is a perfect deck for hanging out with friends who happen to be playing EDH. Its the most casual of casual decks, and sometimes thats okay. Maybe not for $150 though.
Commenting before watching,
I have a feeling this is 100% no
Correct, commenting before watch is wrong.
Since you owned up to it however, I excuse you for your poor form (this time).
@@angelojohnson9441hey shut up?
Short answer: no
Long answer: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Think you’re a few hundred “o”s short m8 😂😂
Thank u yatzeee
But isn't every secret lair deck now selling for nearly double it's original cost?
@@PragmaticPsychiatrybecause the other were bangers
@zwair42069 every single other deck was called a flavor and value fail too though lol
15:19 Thankfully, it's an end step trigger not an upkeep trigger, so you don't have to wait for each of your opponents to have a turn, but it's still a bit of a long shot.
The deck also contains Path of Ancestry with a commander that has no creature types, so it's really just a cheap 5 color tapped land.
I have bought one because I do like the art and I own the other 4, so I'll have it for completeness, but I'm not overly enthused by the deck list.
Was going to call this out too.
I run Biovisionary in a somewhat controlly Simic deck and I'm honestly surprised how reliably it works. Copy spells and effects have become a lot cheaper and more versatile over the years, and then there is the populate mechanic which is stitched onto some usable spells. So you have a lot of cards that are not just waiting around on your hand to copy the one wincon.
@@Volkbrechtbut you actually run cards with the intention of reliably copying biovisionary. it's not very good win condition but it will work if you build your deck correctly... but not in this pile
@@m1gr3nA Exactly so. It's not a terrible card, but in this deck it requires you to have biovisionary stick and then a single very specific sorcery resolve and the tokens stay around until end step. There's not even any cards in the deck helping you defend it.
Much like liliana's contract wouldn't be awful in a demons deck, but in this you are required to have liliana's contract and maskwood nexus, plus a board of creatures and the only real defense you have to make it stick is clever concealment to keep them phased out until your next turn.
@@arcbinder i would expect removal targeted at original biovisionary in response to replication rather than let it resolve and deal with more of them afterwards. it's safer. :)
there is a few ways to protect/recur the combo but again they are not good ones except last one: alseid, shalai/ascendancy (i mean if someone tried to bolt it...), sun titan, ultimatum, concealment. no progenitor mimic and other clones, no silence or veil effects. no graveyard recursion. no counterspels. awful.
poor tanukis. they deserved better deck.
Watched it in action on Elder Dragon Hijinks and I think it performs better than you expect. As anyone who plays casual commander knows, being unassuming and not much of a threat is a good way to survive to late game, which is where you are more likely to pull out one of these wincons. It’s also kind of silly to see people theorizing that it was just thrown together, this is a pet deck of Daniel Holt who has been piloting variations of this deck for years.
Underrated comment
problem being, even though being unassuming can help you last longer the deck doesnt functionally prevent the other 3 players from winning. so even at a casual commander level the table very well could lose long before you get you jank win to go off. especially in a precon format because precons dont run much interaction so you cant even count on your opponents to prevent each other from winning
@@kyonizuka am I wrong in thinking the best way to prevent someone else winning is to simply win yourself? Not every deck is going to sweat it out for a world title. In the right hands , just like any other deck, it feels like this could be a fun, dynamic stack of cardboard
Thanks for pointing out it's his deck. It felt a bit like a real deck where the designer had to cut corners for the sake of card value. Seems like that is pretty likely what happened here.
More than anything this play possum style is not my style. I like feeling like I've built up and "earned" my wins, not just waiting 7 turns until my opponents are out of answers and I can sneak a wincon onto the battlefield.
This feels like a deck I'd build myself. It'd get played a few times, we'd all laugh, then it'd be retired. As a precon where Wizards is in on the joke, it feels like a very lame corporate thing. Do not want, and also no longer want to build it myself.
There are ways to build it so it works well, but it cost a lot and need to cut a lot of win cons to focused on the easier to synergize a whole deck with. Like, cutting maze's end help a lot for the mana base XD
This is the first secret lair I have purchased. I made myself wait a day instead of impulse buying and it was still there.
It’s got everything I like to play - cute creatures, bullshit win cons, and the fact that it’s a mess to play with is pretty on brand for me.
Honestly saaaaame. I picked up miracle worker because of the fact that my win con is just having so much options to play and playing big cards. It just feels bad that this deck as a precon seemingly isn’t cohesive. But just like any precons, upgrade it a little and have even more fun! And I love the art so much! Hope you get enjoy it!
Same!! For the same reasons! I love playing precons and my favorite ones are always the terrible ones
the box juggle at 2:54 is mad impressive!
I'd have been happier with a completely nonfoil option, but this was something I was going to get. Got one ordered and it's for tearing apart.
Also, Shrine tokens are freaking expensive. Not that you need them to play but they're like $5-10.
Yah as someone who loves enchantments I love so many of these cards in the deck and the tanuki art is so cute. Also there are some decent reprints in it
Yeah, the deck is a lot like my favorite garbage pile (5 color charm/modal spell tribal 'spellslinger' with a Gate subtheme to actually, y'know, win) but somehow even worse constructed. But with very little investment I can stick the pieces into other decks, and I think even this deck could be made into something good by being less memetastic. Drop the least likely win conditions, add some enchantment and land tutoring so you can get the impactful enchantments/Maze's End quickly, and you COULD make something pretty decent. Maybe get some actual shrines in there that help with them so you can have a Go-Shintai deck that is at least different than the usual All The Shrines pile.
I got some foil shrine tokens off etsy for like $3 that look infinitely better than the official ones
Yeah those shrine tokens are ridiculously expensive and have to count in the deck’s total value
Honestly if they wanted a more coherent deck, they should've cut the number of wincons in half, make Kynaios and Tiro the face commander (since that card helps you with card advantage), and cut the few black cards in the deck + the harder to obtain wincons.
no one have complained with 10 ways to win deck.
That’s why i believe that it shoulda just been a normal secret lair product to begin either Dx they just slapped some cards in that works with each precon without choosing a lane and called it a day
That's not a bad idea 😊
I liked the idea of a 20 ways to win commander deck. The $150 price point was a deal breaker.
"I will someday" IS THE PROFESSOR BUYING HASBRO?
While _this_ decklist is very bad for an alt-win-con-tribal deck, there are a lot of cards here that are useful, not only in such a deck but in EDH in general.
I'd say it _is_ a good start point, and can be upgraded to be a _functional_ alt-win-con-tribal deck somewhat easily.
Also, the 5c Go-Shintai is the commander WotC chose because of its first ability to recur dead enchantments, since a majority of "you win the game" cards are enchantments.
I do agree that there should've been strictly 20 or more cards with the words "you win the game", and not the cop-outs of commander damage, combat damage, or mill.
I'm also a huge fan of WotC _finally_ using the Nyx frame on _all_ enchantments, and there's a _lot_ of enchantment reprints in this deck with that frame now.
As for making a functional alt-win-con-tribal deck: there's 30 legal, possible "you win the game" cards for such a deck, though a few can be ruled out as requiring too much investment:
Hedron Alignment and Battle of Wits don't work in EDH; Gallifrey Stands requires 13+ Doctors and Luck Bobblehead requires 7 Bobbleheads which would be a lot of deckspace for only one win-con each; Near-Death Experience, Barren Glory, and Azor's Elocutors are some of the hardest ones to meet, so can be excluded.
Most of the rest can be built around in ways that the rest of the deck can work towards multiple at once, so that the non win-con cards are all versatile yet still individually strong.
Even the "if you have 8 unlocked doors among Rooms you control" one works, since it only requires 4 total Room cards, and some Rooms are very strong and/or work towards other win-cons.
I'd say Rukarumel or Marina Vendrell would be good commander options, other than Go-Shintai. Marina has card draw that also works with the heavy enchantment count, and Rukarumel works towards Liliana's Contract and even Gallifrey Stands.
5 color was probably the largest mistake of the entire deck. If they had focused it down to 2-3 colors, the deck would probably be much better.
@@kozad86 Trouble with cutting one or more colors is you start losing large numbers of "you win the game" cards and/or support cards that work towards the remaining ones you do have left.
Alt-win-con tribal isn't meant to be cEDH. It's a deck that is very obviously not going to go off often, but is fun to play. It's like Chandra tribal in that way. People build it because it's a fun and unique build, not because it's going to win every game.
He missed Maze’s End in the land section.
this is normal 30$ secret lair with 120$ of cardboard padding. i get that those cards are useful but ypu need to build a lot of decks to find place for all of them so they are just padding.
You know what. I wasn't originally planning on modifying the deck at all. I don't own a single unmodified precon. But now that you mention Rakrumarel and Gallifrey Stands, I am tempted.
I really love that every couple years when I've gotten back into magic youve been here to provide insight and advice 😊 love you channel, your work, and your candor. Thank you 😄
Kinda funny...even though it's not.
Prof: 'WotC could do this or that or hey, at least that.'
Wotc: 'Yeah whatever, we just do less with literally every new release and sometimes even charge more. LuL'
Everyone forgets about the Angels precon when speaking about Secret Lair commander decks.
Logical answer: No
Brain answer: Yes
Wallet answer: Send help
It is actually available, so that’s a win and I only waited 14 minutes yesterday so this was actually pretty good considering(the bar is so low after the Marvel drop)
there wasn't a queue on this one when i took a look at it. i once built a deck around packing as many win conditions into a deck as i could... it was scion of the ur dragon. which was part of the win conditions. however, 20 ways to win, without 20 cards in it that say "Win the game" on seems like a misfire.
Why do you even give them still your money?
They literally put the Marvel Drop into the hands of scalpers just to make a quick buck. The "bugs" were well known by WotC.
Don't be a mindless consumer. Just print the cards or order proxies.
I was in, out and done in no time flat
Why though?
@@DaroriDerEinzigeBecause it's just a bunch of cards that might loose value even with the secret lair reprint
Liliana's Contract in a deck that contains no demons
Maskwood Nexus is the "combo" for the contract.
Yes. This deck feels like it was put together by someone who just looks at cards and thinks the card by itself is great and doesn’t consider anything else. We all have one or two of those at the LGS. 🫠
Achievement unlocked
Or a Go Shintai deck with no other shrines
@@VolmortantoHaving buil a win con theme deck, I can see the appeal of having this commander if you focuse on tutoring your wincons anchentments in your grave to bring them back in instant speed. The token ability is irrelevent and pretty much any 5 colors commander would be a better fit in this particular deck list.
7:18 I very much would have preferred an entire nonfoil deck. I don’t really like foils in my decks and even do 1:1 trades with my friends for their basic lands to get rid of my foil ones
I've built a deck based on the theme. It's not a deck you want to play with if you want to win, but it surely fun to see the face of your opponents when you become the biggest threat in a single turn. Still upgrading it every year and find new ways to enjoy it!
Beside, i do understand the appeal of having that particular commander, but I'd make ways to go grab the enchantments I want into the graveyard and bring it back in instant speed. But this deck is not worth it. Use your money to build it completely from scratch, with the win cons you want and the way you want it to be played.
Don't forget about putting Pariah on a creature that you put the Darksteel Mutation on, that's another way to "win".
But we get Sun Titan, so that is the only win I need.
Also, to be fair, the Biovisionary is an end of turn trigger, so you don't have to wait a turn cycle.
Tauren Mauler + Rite of Replication wouldn't work for Liliana's Contract since they need different names. Nexus is the only combination that gets you there.
Go-Shintai + Kicked Rite is like 30 shrines tokens, right?
I keep seeing people forgetting that there was an Angel Secret Lair deck too
15:20 Biovisionary triggers on End Step, so you don't have to wait a full rotation. It's one the few alt. win cons that don't trigger on upkeep.
15:20 Actually, Biovisionary will trigger at the beginning of the end step, so if you targeted it with a kicked Rite of Replication, you don't have to wait for everyone else at the table to take a turn before it wins you the game.
The 20th victory was managing to get the deck before it sold out.
Still available 🙃
@killerhurtalot sounds like a victory
I was talking to my playgroup about how a deck dedicated to alt win-cons is actually pretty cool, but that if you have 4-5 of these already lying around you can make a much better version of it yourself.
They should make 20 Ways Wizards Screwed Everyone. At the back of my head, it would be extremely expensive because it contains the following: a couple of Companions, a vanilla Chronicles legend, a proxy 30th anniversary Power Nine card, a Nexus of Fate, Rick from Walking Dead, a sticker card, a Marvel superhero and random Reserved List proxies.
As a huge fan of tanuki's and a lot of money to usually spend, and in need of an excuse to play Go-Shintai, I think this is perfect for me to disassemble for its fun cards, and rebuild for Go-Shintai!
In Europe it costs even 164,99€ - Which is roughly around 173 USD.
So, yeah, no way. :)
I need that Go-Shintai art, but I'll wait to buy just the single.
Daniel Holt said he'd been working on this deck for a year on Elder Dragon Hijinks. I don't think he's lying about that, but also I've seen first drafts that are more coherent and fun than this.
It doesn't instill confidence in the design team.
Thanks I really didn't know anything about this deck. It came out of left field.
Thank you for always doing a lot to promote magic and help players in the community professor.
I LOVE The art of the tanuki cards. But yeah i wish it was 20 tanuki art cards. Then the price would have felt plausibly right. But rn it feels nuts
Im probably just gonna proxy the whole thing tbh. Hecking secret lair things…
I have actually had pretty good luck with an even more scattered version of this deck type. The trick is chaos, have so many wincons ticking up at once, that it becomes very difficult for a player to try and stop you without slowing down their own advancement. Simic ascendancy may be a good target, but you can deal with that or the several modified creatures that will swing in, (maybe even commander). The give is often, "sure you can handle ONE of my wincons, but if you try to handle the other three I have in action, the resources you will have to forfeit would make you an easy target to the other players."
Opponent's threat assessment, Politicking, and Slight of Hand Distractions are as important to this kind of deck as any one of the setup cards.
That said: Dismantle on a Darksteel Reactor is a much better wincon than Triskaidekaphile, there are wincons that help ensure that even if you are getting beat up, its all to your benefit, (Mortal Combat, Near Death Experience, Laboratory Maniac) and Mycosynth Lattice would help immensely with the Mechanized production/Biovisionary/Hellkite Tyrant setup
Finally, definitely could have used a Doubling Season reprint.
Prof and team, you saved me! I'm looking forward to this drop and missed the notification email but I was still able to pick one up because you released your video 😁
Look, I'm gonna be real, it's low powered perfect for super casual EDH. It's a good deck to play while chatting and not focusing solely on the game
Allright, but why would you spend $149.99 for that kind of deck. People are going to spend that much only because of the exclusive art and the cards' retail value; for anyone with a brink of sanity, actually playing with the deck is only going to be an afterthought.
18:55 Haha - 20 ways to lose.
I skipped to the end to see the grades and got the accurate deck description too😂
I'm so glad I didn't buy this. I was thinking of buying it just to play it in commander games, and you breaking this down for me professor as a fairly new player is incredible insightful. I truly thank you for saving me money.
Feel like this deck is absolutely ideal for taking apart, and making 2-3 or more different decks that'll run more efficiently
I think a shuffle up and play video with only secret layer decks would be really fun! I believe there is 5 decks so we could have every one except the heads I win, tails you lose deck since we have already seen it perform on shuffle up and play.
Sorry I already impulse bought it out fear it'd sell out in 2 hours
It's all good, dude... we've all done something similar at some point.
Valid considering the last limited drop sold out within a minute.
Victims should not have the need to apologise.
It's ok. Fear of Missing Out got you this time.
Then the predatory business model is working…. Fantastic 👍
FOMO wins again
Even though the price tag sucks id like to point out all the secret lair decks are all currently worth well over what they were originally selling for so you can argue that long term their is a lot of value. As for playabilty ive played they hell out of all the secret laor decks and they all do fairly well. Even the cute to brute comes out of nowhere woth wins.
To me it's another puzzle piece, ontop of the Foundations Starter Collection and all the solid cards of the last few sets, for a newcomer to build a very profound deck right away.
I can't believe Prof had the balls to not use the new Secret Lair alert in this video.
The secret lair has inspired me to try this theme myself. Probably going to use some other alt wincons though!
My own experience was fairly good, I had forgotten until late in the day and ordered at 5 pm MST AZ, I ordered two decks and the whole affair took less than three minutes.
As someone who crafts decks for fun, this deck *feels* like it was made by someone either inexperienced or by AI. The flashy "20 ways to win" is cool and all, but is really only brought to light by single-cast cards like Felidar Sovereign, Revel/Riches, etc. Usually when people craft decks, they craft a route to get to that wincon which is consistent with synergetic cards that work together as a failsafe.
For example, a common and straight-up win-con for casual players would be Exquisite Blood + Sanguine bond. Well, what if you don't have one or the other? You'll need an alternative way to get there, such as having Exquisite Blood but lacking Sanguine. Now you need another creature such as Sanctum Seeker + another attacking vampire that sets off both triggers. From here you can mix/match creatures to achieve the same result.
The deck works because it's WUBRG, but it doesn't feel so good to play when it comes to cheap routes of winning.
And, as for the topic of "is it worth it", and as you've stated. Yeah, plugging the entire decklist into Moxfield and checking it out at TCG Player, the deck is a good $225+ in value for only $150. It is unfortunate they didn't full-art the entire deck, let alone full-foil.
The "alt win con deck" is very buildable, but you generally want to stick to around 5 alt win cons, and want to pick ones that steer you toward similar strategies. 20 is way too many to ever make a cohesive deck that has a decent chance of winning with any of its wincons. That said I have an alt win con deck and I love the Tanuki art and this wasn't sold out earlier today so I got one...
The raccoon arts is cute as hell, but damn. The whole deck is just clusterfuk of wincons without synergy.
Someone get this guy a "How to Juggle" book for Christmas!
Thanks! I was waiting for this video!
Personally, I typically prefer matte cards to foils, so a cheaper all-matte deck would be a win-win for me.
I know the answer is no, but enjoy watching the Prof's videos regardless.
i think the deck is actually kinda good, maybe. some wincons like demons are questionable, and the mazes end introduces a weird spot of slow mana. but there does seem to be decent mana fixing and a few ways to get a lot of mana that would make up for tap lands if you survive. as mentioned the win cons are counters, lifegain, artifacts, and mana dumps. gates arent the worst with the new non-ravnica gates, and is the only non monocolored way to get a lot o mana with only lands (like cabal, or nyx). artifact wincons are overly easy in commander particularly with treasures. both of those add the the mana sink wincons, like helix, paying for counters, or targeted mill. there are multiple ways to win by putting like 20 counters on a creature (like your commander, in addition to the obvious ones). while the life gain has obvious wincons, i think of it more that it just adds to the pillowfort. similar with all the draw, you can win with 13 cards, or you can win cause you constantly draw cards like a blue deck. ultimately this feels like its played like a hugs deck, where youre left alone until you eventually win, except instead of hugs you just feign ignorance of playing a bad deck. i think the issue then comes from the wincons, as anyone whos played second sun knows, if you play one you will be targeted, but do you have enough wincons and pillow for pieces to survive the removal? i think you do. but when you play the second game and everyone knows what to expect, do you have fast enough mana to build youre fort because they have no hug based reason to keep you alive? i dont think so.
Fun fact: this is also Prof's audition tape for the role of Bobby Singer in the upcoming Supernatural reboot.
yes 20 toed toad is counted twice
because you can do the hand or the counters
This is my deck idea, and I demand royalties from WotC!
Seriously though, I have been playing a similar deck for a while, and have done fairly well with it. It has many of the same cards, but I've swapped some of them out because they just don't work. So far, I've won with Maze's End multiple times, Approach of the Second Sun (the only basics I have in the deck are one each of the Amonkhet full arts, and I deliberately played a plains to cast this the second time. Legendary!), Heliod/Ballista combo, Near Death Experience, and I think Mechanised Production or Revel in Riches. My plan is to win with each card if I can.
I've also got Mayael's Aria (came close once), Happily Ever After, Barren Glory (I REALLY want to do this one), Triskaidekaphile, Felidar Sovereign, and Azor's Elocutors. My commander is Child of Alara, but I rarely get it out. The deck doesn't run many creatures, so I usually only get it out if I draw a trigger such as Ruthless Knave. By that time, I may already have enough lands to begin winning with Maze's End so it's a useful deterrent. I've got all the Gates, and often I can search for Gond Gate, and maybe even a cheeky Amulet of Vigor.
Good news for people who want it, it’s still available!
I’m not planning on buying it though. It’s just a bunch of cards that barely work together. Plus the price is too high. I do like the cute artwork though.
*"Tanooki balls all over your cards..."*
🤣😅
I appreciate the joke that the Tanuki spirit is PG
It could be that scalpers were discouraged by their experience not being able to sell the marvel cards 🤷
This is the kind of deck idea my friends and I would have after a night deep in our cups and even then we'd realize it wouldn't work like we'd want
"Ramos, Dragon Engine" is a much better commander for this deck
I know you make good dramatizations based on corporate greed, and the reality is that if your on-screen ideals were truly the business model it would be just getting by, but I truly wish you can one day buy wizards of the coast. How freaking awesome would that be. I'd buy everything you produce.
The Professor: Why are booster boxes so expensive!?
Also the Professor: JOIN ME ON WHATNOT
LMFAO my doing a Whatnot stream is why booster boxes have increased in price? Sure, Jan.
I 100% think this and pretty much all the secret lair decks have been art buys and not actual deck buys. To me this is a secret lair for the 10 cards that have new art.
Making opponent scoop at instant speed is always way to win #1.
This deck sounds very similar to my Kynaios & Tiro of Meletis Deck where it has 8 ways to win instead of 20 (not including combat) and I added group hug cards so that I could help other players out while I try to reach my "win the game" cards.
Well I didn’t have any fomo on this one anyway ❤ Great video
I use to play kenrith as a win con deck and their was a fair share of issues but honestly kenrith works for that style so much better then this entire deck works at all
I'm getting it and rebuilding it to focus only the win-cons with alternate art as well as to skim a few cards for other decks along the way.
I went ahead and grabbed one since I don’t have any of the other SLD decks. I was mostly after the reprints and the art. I have a feeling this will probably sell out within a couple of days, which is kind of shocking considering these usually sell out within hours.
That smash bros animation when the deck fell just gave me a stroke
I feel like they should have gone in a group hug kind of direction with this
Group hug typically will allow you to draw enough cards for your "cards in hand" win cons, if you add in a smothering tithe you can acquire artifacts to win with those win cons, and it gives the deck a clear goal, help everyone out..... Until you get your trump card/s
I got it not for value, but because I love wacky, silly decks in commander. I don't really have my own yet, so I figured why not?
I don't plan on changing it, and hope to one day fill out the checklist. I like fun, and I'm not sorry
i rushed to see if it was still available and yes it was, also just bought it imediatly cause it has my favorite commander of all time
I need to check if my brother still has his old Alternate Wincon deck.
Updating that with some of the more recent cards (many of which are reprinted here) could be fun.
Factoring inflation into the mix, the term "bulk" should include up to $3 cards imo. This would give a far more accurate value take on Wotc products and what they are actually selling us.
I figured there were was only one way a card with 20 win-the-game conditions would go, which was tripping over itself with half the win conditions not having enough support to effectively work.
They honestly should’ve kept what the cat dog deck did and give us full art lands in the theme of the secret lair to help incentivize getting the deck
I'm sorry if someone already said this. The missing wincon from the list is Maze's End.
i mean.. i'd say making an opponent mill out, run out of lives or frustrate them to the point they scoop are all valid and different ways to win and shouldn't be counted as "alternate"
You don’t have to wait for your opponents to take a turn for a biovisionary win, it’s on your own end step
The revel in riches is the best part of this.
The epitome of WotCs not caring about playability, it has written "Selling Singles" all over the place.
15:20 reading the card, would have explained the card. I still do agree that this secret lair deck seems to be a mess.
Something to note, because of the short/messed up printing of the shrine tokens for Go-Shintai, a basic one is still $6+. Having some foil ones bumps the value up probajly close to $10 more or so
Studio Ghibli's children's movie Pom Poko featured Tanukis with giant balls... and it is rated PG. Wizards has NO EXCUSE to not include the giant balls of wealth-blessing goodness.